Should Gaelic remain an official language of Ireland?

[JAR]

Should Gaelic remain an official language of Ireland?

My answer is no.

The majority of the people in Ireland speak English as a first language. I asked my Irish uncle-in-law if there were any political regulations in Ireland that he didn't like.

His answer was, "Yeah, the one that said that I had to pass my Gaelic exam in order to graduate from high school. They taught us Gaelic and Latin at school, so as you can see, they were really settin' us up for the modern world," and then he laughed.

The world is sufferring under the yolk of revivalist movements. A little while back the druids in Britain complained when a wooden monument similar to Stonehenge was unearthed. They said it was sacrilege to take it out of the ground or something to that effect.

In Scotland there is a silly Scottish separatist movement. Sean Connery is one of the members and he lost the chance to be knighted because of it.

Sometimes these linguistic revivalist movements go too far. In Shetland there are people trying to revive the Shetlandic dialect of Scottish English. The dialect, like Orcadian, is a form of Insular Scottish. Insular Scottish is notable for its large number of words borrowed from the extinct Norse language called Norn.

People start by saying that the government needs to do something to keep a language from going extinct but once that is achieved, then they start saying that the government needs to do something to keep a dialect from going extinct.

If things keep going as they are, pretty soon the southern Americans are going to want to secede in order to keep Southern English from dying out.

The Irish need to stop thinking of themselves as a branch of the Gaelic people and instead start thinking of themselves as a branch of the English people.

[Jon_in_london]

Yes, I think it should remain official because its part of Ireland's heritage. BUT I dont think it should be compulsory to pass such an exam at school.

[Mendor]

I absolutely don't think Gaelic should be compulsory in schools - it's counter-productive - people resent it. But it's would be a great shame if either branch of Gaelic, the Scottish or the Irish, died out.

When a language dies, that's a culture and a heritage gone, boom, like that.

Sometimes these linguistic revivalist movements go too far. In Shetland there are people trying to revive the Shetlandic dialect of Scottish English. The dialect, like Orcadian, is a form of Insular Scottish. Insular Scottish is notable for its large number of words borrowed from the extinct Norse language called Norn.
Why shouldn't people try to revive Shetlandic? It's an important part of the culture of Shetland.

Scottish English is the version of English spoken in Scotland - English with a Scottish accent. The word you are looking for is "Scots", which is a separate language - or was until recently.

I have to take issue with this:
In Scotland there is a silly Scottish separatist movement. Sean Connery is one of the members and he lost the chance to be knighted because of it.

While there are silly fringes of it (Siol Nan Gaidheal, they're called, and they're hardly well known up here) - the Scottish "separatist" movement ain't silly. There are elections in Scotland tomorrow, and the SNP (Scottish National Party) - the party of which Sir Sean Connery (he has been knighted despite his membership of the party) is a member - are expected to poll about 25%* of the vote - and earlier on in the month, they were level pegging with the governing Labour party in the polls. The SNP are the Official Opposition in the Scottish Parliament - hardly a silly position.

* This seems small, but all the parties are small in Scotland - Labour gets about 35%.

The Irish need to stop thinking of themselves as a branch of the Gaelic people and instead start thinking of themselves as a branch of the English people.
Would any Irish people like to comment? I know I'd be very annoyed if I, a Scot, were referred to as "a branch of the English people" - because it just isn't true. Different culture, different country. We happen to be united by political ties at the moment, is all. Yes, there has been an intermix of cultures in the 300 years of union - but I'm not a branch of the English people any more than the English are a branch of the Scottish people.

Mendor

[JAR]

Originally posted by Mendor
Sir Sean Connery (he has been knighted despite his membership of the party)Mendor

My mistake. I read that Sean Connery had lost his chance to be knighted in an article about him in the Biography magazine. It was an issue that was several years old.

[Mendor]

I think something like that did happen - but he's a Sir now.

There is one silly aspect of the SNP - and that's that Connery lives in tax exile... in the Bahamas. Yes, that's really standing up for Scotland, Sir Sean... :rolleyes:

Mendor

[JAR]

Originally posted by Mendor
but I'm not a branch of the English people any more than the English are a branch of the Scottish people.Mendor

Under that logic the Americans would be a branch of the Italian ethnic group since their name comes from an Italian. I'm not about to start speaking Italian.

Under that logic the French are Germans, since they get their name from the Germanic people called the Franks.

Here's a list of peoples who mainly don't speak the language of the ethnic group they get their name from.

Aquitanians: name comes from the Aquitans(language is unknown)
Belgians: name comes from the Belgs(spoke Gaulish)
Britons: name comes from a people who spoke a very old form of Welsh
Burgundians: name comes from the Burgunds(language is unknown)
Californians: name comes from a mythical people
French: name comes from the Franks(spoke a West Germanic language)
Gascons: name comes from the Vascons(spoke Basque)
Kentish: name comes from the Cants(probably spoke Welsh)
Normans: name comes from the Northmen(spoke Norse)
Palestinians: name comes from the Philistines


The list goes on and on. I have others which I didn't list because I didn't want to take up too much space.

What I'm trying to get at is that there is no point in trying to reverse the waves of absorbtion.

[Craig]

Originally posted by JAR


Under that logic the Americans would be a branch of the Italian ethnic group since their name comes from an Italian. I'm not about to start speaking Italian.

Under that logic the French are Germans, since they get their name from the Germanic people called the Franks.

Here's a list of peoples who mainly don't speak the language of the ethnic group they get their name from.

Aquitanians: name comes from the Aquitans(language is unknown)
Belgians: name comes from the Belgs(spoke Gaulish)
Britons: name comes from a people who spoke a very old form of Welsh
Burgundians: name comes from the Burgunds(language is unknown)
Californians: name comes from a mythical people
French: name comes from the Franks(spoke a West Germanic language)
Gascons: name comes from the Vascons(spoke Basque)
Kentish: name comes from the Cants(probably spoke Welsh)
Normans: name comes from the Northmen(spoke Norse)
Palestinians: name comes from the Philistines


The list goes on and on. I have others which I didn't list because I didn't want to take up too much space.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Mendor]

I'm not quite sure of your point here - by "branch of the English people" did you mean "branch of the English-speaking peoples"?

If so, then yes, many (all, actually) Scots and Irish are indeed a branch of the English-speaking peoples, and I don't think anyone would try to deny that. But we also have links to another language - and, by extension, another culture - and I, certainly, don't want to abandon those links.

I don't think it's pointless to try to reverse the waves of absorption, as you put it. Gaelic in Scotland is about 5000 speakers off of being a "dead" language.*

I don't want to see Gaelic die.

I don't want to see its place entirely taken by English. This might be inevitable - but I don't want it to happen. I really don't like the idea of there being no-one left who can read the Carmina Gadelica (http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/corpus/Carmina/) in its original language. That, to me, represents the death of a culture - and I don't want to go down that road.

Regarding your original point - whether Gaelic should remain an official language of Ireland - it would seem to me that one of the only ways to ensure the language's survival would be to keep it as an official language of Ireland. Again, I say that it shouldn't be compulsory in schools - that had bad results - but it should certainly be available in schools.

* i.e. it has about 55 000 speakers - apparently, once a language has less than 50 000 speakers, it is officially "dead"

Mendor

[JAR]

Mendor, I'd like to also note that the Scots of today are mainly descended from non-Scots, those non-Scots being the Picts, Northumbrian Angles, the Welsh, and the Norse. So the designation of being of Scottish descent is somewhat arbitrary.

Different peoples ended up being ruled by the Scots and started calling themselves by their rulers' ethnic name.

[Mendor]

Although this is true - why is it relevant?

Most peoples in this part of Europe are mish-mashes of the original peoples to have settled here, and there is no-one alive that can claim to have pure Scottish blood, because as you point out, no such thing exists.

The tribe of the Scotti came originally from Ireland; the "true Scots", i.e. the original inhabitants, were the Picts.

There is a readily identifiable Scottish culture however - or rather, there is a readily identifiable Highland culture, with which Gaelic is deeply connected.

I confess that I'm still unsure of the ultimate point you're trying to make here and with your Aquitanians - Palestinians list. Is it that there's no such thing as a True Scotsman anymore? (Logicians, beware! Your fallacy names are out of date!) If that's the case, then you'll find that there'll be 5 million people disagreeing with you quite sharply on that point.

Or is it that it is a fact languages do change and die?

Yes, some languages are dying at the expense of others, and yes, this is helping communication between peoples - there is no communication barrier between the Highlands and the Lowlands anymore, for example.

This is still not a net positive gain, because in gaining ease of communication, we lose a culture.

If neither of these is the point you're trying to make, then I apologise for misinterpreting you, and ask if you could explain for my (rather addled at 00:52 - sleep? pah!) brain?

Mendor

[Fade]

Gaelic (Irish, really. Not many of us really say Gaelic) is part of Irish culture. As such, it should be preserved. However, compulsory education in the language has never made any sense. All us Irish schoolchildren learned that if you wanted anything, you had to ask for it in Irish. It was extremely annoying, as the language is cumbersome. Also, many different parts of Ireland have different rules as to how to put it to paper, as Irish isn't a written language in the true sense.

As for being a "branch of the English people" it's patently absurd. Irish culture is very, very old, even if it has been modernized. There are half a dozen distinct cultures native to the Islands. Then there are the Welsh.

[a_unique_person]

I'm glad you asked me that, and I must say that I definitely don't know.

[Questioninggeller]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Yes, I think it should remain official because its part of Ireland's heritage. BUT I dont think it should be compulsory to pass such an exam at school.

I agree.

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by JAR

The Irish need to stop thinking of themselves as a branch of the Gaelic people and instead start thinking of themselves as a branch of the English people.

LOL. You aren't a relative of Winston Churchill by any chance?

:D

My wife will love that one! She's fluent BTW, but then again she's a teacher. Apparently you can't get a government job in Ireland without passing the Irish exams, but apart from that I don't know.

[Shane Costello]

Raite ag JAR sa chead uair

Should Gaelic remain an official language of Ireland?

My answer is no.

Mar Eireannnach d'iultaim go h'iomlain den raiteas seo. Is ceart e go m'bionn an Gaeilge teanga oifiguil sa tir seo.
(As an Irish person I don't agree. It's correct that Irish is one of oiur official languages)

The majority of the people in Ireland speak English as a first language. I asked my Irish uncle-in-law if there were any political regulations in Ireland that he didn't like.

His answer was, "Yeah, the one that said that I had to pass my Gaelic exam in order to graduate from high school. They taught us Gaelic and Latin at school, so as you can see, they were really settin' us up for the modern world," and then he laughed.

It's no longer the case that a pass in Irish is required to graduate from high school, and hasn't been for some time. It is a requirement for entry to some universities, although a pass at lower level Irish shouldn't faze prospective college students. I doubt any school in the country continues to teach Latin.

The Irish need to stop thinking of themselves as a branch of the Gaelic people and instead start thinking of themselves as a branch of the English people.

Gabh mo leithsceal, but Ireland is an independent country*, and the Irish have a distinct ancestry from the English. We are a Gaelic/Cambro-Norman people, like the Welsh, as distinct from the Saxon/Dane/Briton ancestry of the English and the Scots. Just look at the origin of most of our surnames and placenames.

(*For the time being anyway. People, whose ancestors were terribly disappointed that the peasantry had the ill-bred manners to gain independence from the mainland and empire, are now consoling themselves by selling the country out to the EU, which is like an Empire but without the employment possibilities in a world class military machine.)

Originally psoted by Mendor
I absolutely don't think Gaelic should be compulsory in schools - it's counter-productive - people resent it. But it's would be a great shame if either branch of Gaelic, the Scottish or the Irish, died out.

This is the root of the problem. The Irish language has been damaged irrevocably by the policies pursued since independence. However this is no justification for following the West-Briton line of abandoning what is a cornerstone of our culture completely.

Originally posted by Fade
Gaelic (Irish, really. Not many of us really say Gaelic) is part of Irish culture. As such, it should be preserved. However, compulsory education in the language has never made any sense. All us Irish schoolchildren learned that if you wanted anything, you had to ask for it in Irish. It was extremely annoying, as the language is cumbersome. Also, many different parts of Ireland have different rules as to how to put it to paper, as Irish isn't a written language in the true sense.

Not only the compulsion factor, but the way it's been thought. Rather than concentrating on teaching kids the language, the syllabus get's sidetracked into literature and language history. Some of the literature is unspeakably dire. Not only that, but the powers that be see fit to introduce everyone to all three main regional dialects, regardless of where they come from. No wonder 14 years (yes, that long), of compulsory ionstruction turn so many people against the language.

Is mise le meas,
Sean Mac Oisdealbha.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by JAR
The Irish need to stop thinking of themselves as a branch of the Gaelic people and instead start thinking of themselves as a branch of the English people.

Really? Would that be the Republic of Ireland, which is a completely independent country, or Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom, but contains both people who see themselves as British and people who want unification with the republic?

Come to think of it, the name "England" comes from a corruption of Angle-Land, or the land of Anglo-Saxons who originated in the country now known as France; English language is a mixture of Anglo-Saxon, Norman (French) and a huge variety of other influences, so maybe the English should just cut the crap and start calling themselves French. For similar reasons, as a lot of USians speak English, they should admit to actually speaking French!

As for language, I think it's up to the people the issues are significant to make the decision. I'm from Yorkshire in the UK btw, which has one of the oldest living dialects in the country, although my maternal grandparents and paternal grandfather came over from Ireland. The closest I've come to exposure to a Gaelic language was learning Welsh at college, but that wan't through choice and as a result I didn't progress much beyond, "Hello!".

Edited to fix tags and to reposition "Edited..." notice

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by BillyTK:
The closest I've come to exposure to a Gaelic language was learning Welsh at college, but that wan't through choice and as a result I didn't progress much beyond, "Hello!".

Actually Welsh is a Brythonic, not a Gaelic language. Celtic languages are divided into two subgroups, P-Celtic (Brythonic languages such as Welsh and Breton) and Q-Celtic (Irish, Scots and Manx Gaelic).

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Shane Costello


Actually Welsh is a Brythonic, not a Gaelic language. Celtic languages are divided into two subgroups, P-Celtic (Brythonic languages such as Welsh and Breton) and Q-Celtic (Irish, Scots and Manx Gaelic).

Wow--I live and learn! And though I'd never thought I'd see the day when I would say this to you Shane, but tell me more! I'm interested! Or if you could point to some links or authors on the subject that would be good! :D

[Victor Danilchenko]

Shane Costello

People, whose ancestors were terribly disappointed that the peasantry had the ill-bred manners to gain independence from the mainland and empire, are now consoling themselves by selling the country out to the EU, which is like an Empire but without the employment possibilities in a world class military machine.This I want to know more about. I hear this sentiment a lot -- that various countries are being sold out to EU. In principle, EU -- a union of independent states -- seems like a great idea; but it sounds like the people at ground-0 see plenty of problems with it. is it the fact that EU leadership is not elected? Or is something else a problem?

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
Shane Costello

This I want to know more about. I hear this sentiment a lot -- that various countries are being sold out to EU. In principle, EU -- a union of independent states -- seems like a great idea; but it sounds like the people at ground-0 see plenty of problems with it. is it the fact that EU leadership is not elected? Or is something else a problem?

Although Sean, being a greater Euro-sceptic than I, is probably better positioned to answer this, here's my two pen'orth:

Imagine the US, but with the president being selected on a rotating basis from each state. Also imagine a far greater cultural and economic diversity amongst states, resulting in a tremendous amount of rivalry and tension between states, including on how the govt. should be run. Also throw in the constitution as a work-in-progress, subject to the conditions noted before, and the structure of government "inherited" from one particular state. Imagine also, a number of states concerned about the degree of sovereignty--both economically and politically--they'd have to surrender as members of this union. That might just give you a flavour of the situation.

Oh, and the fear (some of it based on genuine concerns, some based on chavinism) of being assimilated into some overwhelming Franco-German empire.

[Hegel]

Yes! It most certainly should!

:D ;) :D ;) :D

Not only being a cultural icon, its a really cool language as well! Welsh should be the official language of Wales as well!

[Shane Costello]

Originally poSted by BillyTK:
Wow--I live and learn! And though I'd never thought I'd see the day when I would say this to you Shane, but tell me more! I'm interested!

Well, there's a first time for everything!:D

www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/celts.html

www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/wales/celtic.shtml

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko:
This I want to know more about. I hear this sentiment a lot -- that various countries are being sold out to EU. In principle, EU -- a union of independent states -- seems like a great idea; but it sounds like the people at ground-0 see plenty of problems with it. is it the fact that EU leadership is not elected? Or is something else a problem?

Well, you could fill a couple of books with the merits, or lack therof, of European integration. But I'll try to be brief.

Firstly, some (www.eurunion.org/infores/euguide/Chapter1.htm) background (www.pitt.edu/~heinisch/eu_integ1.html) on the formation of what is now the EU. the operative words are "ever closer union" and "pooling of sovreignty".

I agree with you that a union of independent couintries is a good idea, but "pooling of sovreignty" is a euphemism for "sellout" IMO. Look at European monetary union, which has required participating countries to surrender their economic sovereignty to a European central bank. The problem with this is that the European economies are quite divergent, and EMU is damaging some of them quite severely. For instance intereset rates have been to high to suit Germany, and to low to suit Ireland.

Nor do I believe this will be a partnership of equals. Jacques Chirac (www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14283&highlight=Old+Europe+to+New+Europe+shut+up) doesn't seem to think so. There's also the EU's disturbing disregard (www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old&section=current&issue=2003-05-03&id=2388&searchText=Nice%20Treaty) for democratic decison making in member states.

This is a taster of what's coloured my own personal opinion of the EU. As I said, you could right a few books about it.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Hypocolius


LOL. You aren't a relative of Winston Churchill by any chance?

:D

My wife will love that one! She's fluent BTW, but then again she's a teacher. Apparently you can't get a government job in Ireland without passing the Irish exams, but apart from that I don't know.

Thanks for the appreciation.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Shane Costello


Mar Eireannnach d'iultaim go h'iomlain den raiteas seo. Is ceart e go m'bionn an Gaeilge teanga oifiguil sa tir seo.
(As an Irish person I don't agree. It's correct that Irish is one of oiur official languages)

*snip*

Not only the compulsion factor, but the way it's been thought. Rather than concentrating on teaching kids the language, the syllabus get's sidetracked into literature and language history. Some of the literature is unspeakably dire. Not only that, but the powers that be see fit to introduce everyone to all three main regional dialects, regardless of where they come from. No wonder 14 years (yes, that long), of compulsory ionstruction turn so many people against the language.

Is mise le meas,
Sean Mac Oisdealbha.

Quite so. I took Irish for fourteen years in school and finished "high school" with a reasonable pass on higher level exam but I still couldn't string together a sentence like that first one (though I could just about fathom the meaning). That's even more ridiculous in that I was a relatively good student.

I remember spending many, many looooong classes learning lists and lists of "seanfocal" - old sayings of supposedly Irish origin. "Nil aon tintean mar a thintean fein" is the only one I remember now (though no doubt Shane will correct my grammer and the whole thing looks strangely naked sans fadas).

We also spent interminable hours reading old Irish legends and poetry in Irish which would be fine (I always rather enjoyed the stories themselves, even if they were a little strange at times ina just-eaten-some-strange-looking-mushrooms kind of way) except that they were usually in some different regional or older dialect than the Irish we were normally taught. Obviously, for a class full of generally unwilling pupils, that just made the whole experience that much more painful.

Similarly, we had to do "aural" exams which basically involved listening to stories on tape sand answering questions in Irish. Again, no major problem, except that the same tapes were used for the whole country and in order to accomodate the different dialects the narrators switched from one to the other! Now a speaker of one dialect can, for the most part, understand another but, dammit, funny country-speak is just plain confusing. Imagine trying to do a similar exercise in English where you're from New York and the narrator is using cockney-rhyming slang!

In short, I too support the preservation of the Irish language but also agree the way it's being taught in schools is doing more harm than good.

Oh and, by the way, they did teach latin in my secondary school and still do, AFAIK.

The Irish need to stop thinking of themselves as a branch of the Gaelic people and instead start thinking of themselves as a branch of the English people.

:rolleyes:

Graham

[Lemastre]

Disused languages should be documented via recordings and so forth so that they are not lost, but no one should be required to learn them just to preserve them. There's too much other stuff that needs knowing to waste time learning dead languages. Any second language required of students should be one that will do them some good in dealing with the world as it is, not as it was. Languages such as Irish or Shetland will cease to be used as the older generation dies off and wherever American culture makes its incursion, bringing the English language with it.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Lemastre:
Any second language required of students should be one that will do them some good in dealing with the world as it is, not as it was. Languages such as Irish or Shetland will cease to be used as the older generation dies off and wherever American culture makes its incursion, bringing the English language with it.

Actually what contributed greatly to the demise of Irish was the fact that mos people who spoke it faced the certainty of the emigrant ship to America. Even now there's possibly more native Irish speakers in Boston than in Ireland.

Originally posted by Graham
I remember spending many, many looooong classes learning lists and lists of "seanfocal" - old sayings of supposedly Irish origin. "Nil aon tintean mar a thintean fein" is the only one I remember now (though no doubt Shane will correct my grammer and the whole thing looks strangely naked sans fadas).

That should be "Nil aon tintean mar do thintean fein". What you said in English was bang on in terms of grammar and sentiment, though.

[Captain_Snort]

Originally posted by JAR
Should Gaelic remain an official language of Ireland?

My answer is no.

The Irish need to stop thinking of themselves as a branch of the Gaelic people and instead start thinking of themselves as a branch of the English people.

My answer to you is WTF has it to do with you in california, Gaelic people thinking themselves as english, hey you are from the US, go dress up in a flowery headdress and be an apache or something and piss off.

The Gaels are the native peoples of the Bristish Isles, the term english comes from Angles who invaded what is now england, Scotland, gets it name from the Scottii who invaded from Ireland and defeating the pictii

The Celtic church was prevelant in the British Isles before the influence of Rome.

Just because you americans have no history of tour own to speak of, we should do what you say? forget heritage?

anyway i am proud of my heritage, being able to trace it back to 940AD and all i can say to you is

Póg ma thión

[Captain_Snort]

Originally posted by JAR
In Scotland there is a silly Scottish separatist movement. Sean Connery is one of the members and he lost the chance to be knighted because of it.


Silly separatist. Look at the latest election results, I think you will find every other party that gained a seat apart from the discredited tories and what used to be labour, do have an active position of separatism, I voted SSP and Green, because I agree with the policies, and I believe Scotland would be better off independant.

Look at the parties that made significant gains, all support separatism, so you calling a large proportion of the country silly?

hell, you got george w bush as your leader, who is the silly one now?

[JAR]

Originally posted by Captain_Snort
anyway i am proud of my heritage, being able to trace it back to 940AD and all i can say to you is

Póg ma thión

That's exactly what I'm worried about. I feel that the slippery slope applies here.

First the Irish will say, "We need to speak our ancestral tongue."

Then they will say, "We must free ourselves from foreign influence."

Then they will say, "We must exterminate everyone in our country who is not Irish."

Then they will say, "We need breathing room. Let's invade England."

[Captain_Snort]

Originally posted by JAR


That's exactly what I'm worried about. I feel that the slippery slope applies here.

First the Irish will say, "We need to speak our ancestral tongue."

Then they will say, "We must free ourselves from foreign influence."

Then they will say, "We must exterminate everyone in our country who is not Irish."

Then they will say, "We need breathing room. Let's invade England."

As opposed to we need oil, lets invade Iraq?

[JAR]

Originally posted by Captain_Snort
As opposed to we need oil, lets invade Iraq?

I knew that you Gaels intended to invade England.

Despite the fact that it has been repeatedly shown that only a small percentage of America's oil comes from Iraq, people continue to say that the wars about oil.

It also can be said for sure that the U.S. didn't send troops to Iraq because it need breathing space.

[Captain_Snort]

Originally posted by JAR


I knew that you Gaels intended to invade England.

Despite the fact that it has been repeatedly shown that only a small percentage of America's oil comes from Iraq, people continue to say that the wars about oil.

It also can be said for sure that the U.S. didn't send troops to Iraq because it need breathing space.

no, just cast it adrift and let it rot in its own cesspit, kinda like what we did to the US in 1776

and just a co-incidence that its the worlds 2nd largest oilfield, yes little oil comes from Iraq to the rest of ther world, did you know they had sanctions against it to stop it selling the stuff?

can I ask you to go find out how long the strategic oil reserves in the US (as in ready to use) would last if you stopped imports, you will be frightened by the figure.

So, what is wrong with wanting your own identity? hell, the US is causing the breakdown of the UN, such great internationalist and great welcomer of asylum seekers and foreign nationals to its shores.

[Mendor]

Originally posted by JAR


That's exactly what I'm worried about. I feel that the slippery slope applies here.

First the Irish will say, "We need to speak our ancestral tongue."

Then they will say, "We must free ourselves from foreign influence."

Then they will say, "We must exterminate everyone in our country who is not Irish."

Then they will say, "We need breathing room. Let's invade England."
:rolleyes:

I'll try one more time. You do understand the gulf of difference between seeking to preserve an ancient culture through preserving its language, and seeking to IMPOSE that culture on people through the ridiculous scenario you pose above?
I knew that you Gaels intended to invade England.
Why would we Gaels invade England? Outside of international football matches, you'll find it very difficult to find proper anti-English sentiment in Scotland. There are jokes made about them (hell, they make jokes about us), but erase any idea you have in your mind of a bitter nation of Anglo-haters. Even if we did hate the English all that much - why (if we were independent) would we want to go to war with our biggest trading partner?

Captain_Snort: glad to see you voted SSP ('mon the Tan Man!), but it's a bit of a concern (to me anyway) that the separatist/independentist vote seems to be fragmenting between the SNP, SSP and (maybe) the Greens - the results for the SNP were a catastrophe, to be honest.

Re the SSP and Greens: Didn't they do well?

Mendor

[Mendor]

after posting that, it's occurred to me that maybe JAR is just having us on, and laughing his a*s off for having stirred up this sh*tstorm among the Gaelic/Celtic/etc. posters.

If so, good job! I applaud you! :D

If not... :rolleyes:

Mendor

[Lemastre]

Originally posted by JAR


That's exactly what I'm worried about. I feel that the slippery slope applies here.

First the Irish will say, "We need to speak our ancestral tongue."

Then they will say, "We must free ourselves from foreign influence."

Then they will say, "We must exterminate everyone in our country who is not Irish."

Then they will say, "We need breathing room. Let's invade England." The sequence of events you propose is facetious, I'm sure, since you must know that language differences don't generally evolve into warfare. There need to be far more pressing reasons for war and, more importantly, some chance of success.

While many older Irish may decry the way their country is going, it appears that Ireland welcomes outside influences insofar as they improve their economy. The invasion of England by Ireland seemed to take place years ago, when young people left the Emerald Isle in great numbers to find work in England.

[Craig]

Originally posted by JAR


That's exactly what I'm worried about. I feel that the slippery slope applies here.

First the Irish will say, "We need to speak our ancestral tongue."

Then they will say, "We must free ourselves from foreign influence."

Then they will say, "We must exterminate everyone in our country who is not Irish."

Then they will say, "We need breathing room. Let's invade England."

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/sauer/angry-smiley-047.gif

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by JAR:
That's exactly what I'm worried about. I feel that the slippery slope applies here.

First the Irish will say, "We need to speak our ancestral tongue."

Then they will say, "We must free ourselves from foreign influence."

Then they will say, "We must exterminate everyone in our country who is not Irish."

Then they will say, "We need breathing room. Let's invade England."

Sigh!:rolleyes:

Firstly, the Gaels (and Cambro-Normans, and Anglo-Irish) of Ireland have had their own state for 80 years. For the duration of statehood consecutive governments pursued a proactive, and has has been demonstrated, counterproductive policy toeards the Irish language. In all that time there hasn't been an inkling or the whiff od a suggestion that any non-Gaelic minority should face a pogrom. Quite the opposite in fact. The Protestant (i.e. Anglophile) minority has special recognition (as do other minorities, including our miniscule Jewish population) in our constitution.

The Protestant minority is representated in proportionately higher numbers among large landowners and the professional class. The Jews occupied a similar position in Germany, yet Irish Protestants have never faced naked popular prejudice (although there can be no question as to the influence of the Catholic Church here until fairly recently).

Protestant denominational education recieves government funding, as does all other denominational education, including our few Islamic schools.

We have had two Protestant presidents. Our first president was Douglas Hyde (Dubhglas de h'Ide), the son of a Protestant clergyman and a reknowned scholar of Irish. Our present President, a Catholic fluent in Irish, has gone out of her way to worship and recieve the Eucharist at Protestant services.

As for your "lebensraum" theory consider this. Ireland has one of the lowest population densities in Europe, England one of the highest. A particularly thick Irish joke might go something like this "Did you hear about the Irish men who wanted living space for their Gaelic ubermensch? The invaded the most thickly populated part of western Europe!" Except in this case the joke is on you. Boom Boom!:D

[JAR]

The irony of the Gaelic revival movement is that Gaelic has to be revived at the expense of Irish and Scottish dialects of English which are just as interesting as Gaelic.

My uncle-in-law, who grew up in Dublin, said that he can hardly understand anything that people from southern Ireland say and that he has trouble understanding the English of people in western Ireland.

Of course, there will be counter-movements complaining that obscure dialects of Irish English are being driven to extinction by the revival of Gaelic.

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by JAR
The irony of the Gaelic revival movement is that Gaelic has to be revived at the expense of Irish and Scottish dialects of English which are just as interesting as Gaelic.

What are you on about?

My uncle-in-law, who grew up in Dublin, said that he can hardly understand anything that people from southern Ireland say and that he has trouble understanding the English of people in western Ireland.

OK, the west of Ireland can be hard to understand, but the south? I think Cork is a brilliant accent, and I'm English!

I think you're "Uncle-in-law" (how does that work BTW?) is having you on!

Of course, there will be counter-movements complaining that obscure dialects of Irish English are being driven to extinction by the revival of Gaelic.


:confused: Have you been at the dried Frog pills again?

[RandFan]

I would not have had any idea that this issue even existed. Thanks for the thread.

I am a mix of Welsh, Irish, Scotch and English and Native American. Yet I know little of my background. I can't offer an opinion except to say that I love all the British accents. Shallow I know, oh well.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by JAR:
The irony of the Gaelic revival movement is that Gaelic has to be revived at the expense of Irish and Scottish dialects of English which are just as interesting as Gaelic.

Can you list some of this "dialects" of hiberno-english under threat? If anything threats dialects of english then it's instruction in the proper use of English grammar, pronunciation and general usage, not the revival of Gaelic.

My uncle-in-law, who grew up in Dublin, said that he can hardly understand anything that people from southern Ireland say and that he has trouble understanding the English of people in western Ireland.

Such as Richard Harris or Peter O'Toole, both native of Ireland's western seaboard? And what does this have to do with the revival of Irish?

Of course, there will be counter-movements complaining that obscure dialects of Irish English are being driven to extinction by the revival of Gaelic.

And you can back this assertion up with evidence, I presume?

Originally posted by Hypocolius:
OK, the west of Ireland can be hard to understand, but the south? I think Cork is a brilliant accent, and I'm English!

As someone from the West of Ireland I must demur! Cork accents can be difficult to understand, depending on how fast their spoken. OTOH the well-bred variation can be very attratcive in women! :cool:

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by Shane Costello

As someone from the West of Ireland I must demur! Cork accents can be difficult to understand, depending on how fast their spoken. OTOH the well-bred variation can be very attratcive in women! :cool:

Oooh yes! I knew a girl from Cork once.....

[Mendor]

Originally posted by JAR
The irony of the Gaelic revival movement is that Gaelic has to be revived at the expense of Irish and Scottish dialects of English which are just as interesting as Gaelic.
No it doesn't.

Have you ever been to Scotland or Ireland, JAR? Or are you basing this entirely on what you've heard from your uncle-in-law?

You seem completely uninformed about the linguistic situation in this part of the world. Gaelic and Scots (and Ulster Scots and various dialects) aren't and won't be competing with each other - they are both under massive threat from English. Both languages, Gaelic and Scots, are subject to "revival" attempts, although Gaelic more than Scots. (I don't think you can call it "revival", because that implies that the languages are dead, which neither are - yet.)

Why can't the languages co-exist? Why would a Gaelic "revival" attempt be at the expense of languages like Scots?

I again point out that what you call a "Scottish dialect of English" - I'm assuming you're talking about Scots ("Scots wha hae wi Wallace bled, Scots wham Bruce has aften led" etc.) - is in fact a separate language; it's a descendant of Old/Middle English, as is Modern English, but it's not a "debased" version or dialect of English.

Mendor