The true evil of Christianity

[kedo1981]

Ok Christianity’s basic most basic tenet.
“Whoever so believes in me (Jesus) shall have everlasting life”
Meaning, if you have the faith, you go dwell in heaven after judgment day, if not, eternal damnation.
Simple enough.
So
Average Joe (true faith) goes to heaven
Average Joe (lack of faith) Hell
Average Joe (never heard the “word”) Hell
Pervert who changes his way (true faith) heaven
Pervert who does not change his way (but with true faith {hard but not imposable}) heaven
Pervert (lack of faith) hell
Killer/tyrant/Hitler (true faith) heaven
Victim of killer/tyrant/Hitler (true faith) heaven
Victim of killer/tyrant/Hitler (lack of faith) hell

I’ve find a lack of justice in this whole idea, is there a part of the bible that includes some “discipline” for the faithful who lead evil lives but get “right” in the end (I’ve not found it).
Was it not the apostle Paul who was a persecutor of Christians, which in those days could include impaling and filleting alive? He was the founder of the church, any justice for his victims.
Say for example; Paul tortures a 12 year old Christian child until that kid renounces it’s faith, curses god and Jesus.
12 year old goes to hell, Paul becomes Saint.

Justice?

[jimlintott]

Don't try to make sense of religion. You'll hurt your brain.

[jjramsey]

Well, that's certainly a good summary of Jack Chick theology, which a lot of evangelical Protestants buy. Given the somewhat famous parody of this salvation scheme, maybe it should be called Hankology (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshankbutt.php). On the other hand, if you look at Matthew 25:31-45, you get this:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'

Nothing about believing in X, Y, Z, just compassion and doing the right thing.

[BJQ87]

Was it not the apostle Paul who was a persecutor of Christians, which in those days could include impaling and filleting alive? He was the founder of the church, any justice for his victims.
Say for example; Paul tortures a 12 year old Christian child until that kid renounces it’s faith, curses god and Jesus.
12 year old goes to hell, Paul becomes Saint.

Justice?


Well first off Paul was tortured many times in prison, lived a life of humility and strife, and was executed. This is quite irrelevant to the heart of the issue though.

Was it not this same man who said "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." and "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit...And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

The man who killed and tortured christians no longer existed the day He recieved Christ as savior.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

The more I hear about religion the more I think what a crock it all is.

However, if it gets you through the day, good luck to you.

[LawnOven]

The possibility of redemption no matter what you have done in the past is one of the most appealing and seductive ideas in christianity.

That's why it is popular among people in prison or on death row.

Everyone likes to think that they have a chance in heaven. After all, who's going to worship a god for whom they've already 'struck out' as it where.

"Sure you must worship me... but you're still going to hell"

That's not the way you win converts, which christianity is especially interested in. It makes it really easy to join or rejoin the flock.

[Meadmaker]

Ok Christianity’s basic most basic tenet.
“Whoever so believes in me (Jesus) shall have everlasting life”
Meaning, if you have the faith, you go dwell in heaven after judgment day, if not, eternal damnation.
Simple enough.


Justice?

I won't try to defend Christianity, except to encourage you to get it right, and then blast it.

One of the things the NT also says is that "Faith without works is dead." Another is that at judgement day, each person shall be "judged according to his works." (Revelations, somewhere near the end)

It's not that a life of sin is ok as long as you believe. The real message is that if you believe, you won't lead a life of sin. So, it doesn't matter if you are judged by faith or by works, the result is the same.

Some variations of Christianity have different interpretations of what happens to people who lead good lives, but don't believe in Jesus. Catholics, these days, say they are fine. Some fundamentalists say it's the Lake of Fire for them. Your mileage may vary.

Christianity does allow deathbed conversions, though. So, if after a life of sin, you convert, the previous sins are wiped away, and all that matters is how you live your last few seconds of life.

Is that justice? That's for God to say. Personally, I think any concept that involves eternal damnation doesn't sound very "just" to me, but if there really is a God, which I doubt, then he created Heaven, Earth, and Hell, and who am I to argue with him?

[LawnOven]

Is that justice? That's for God to say. Personally, I think any concept that involves eternal damnation doesn't sound very "just" to me, but if there really is a God, which I doubt, then he created Heaven, Earth, and Hell, and who am I to argue with him?

You might be able to if you were a gnostic :).

[Riddick]

Say for example; Paul tortures a 12 year old Christian child until that kid renounces it’s faith, curses god and Jesus.
12 year old goes to hell, Paul becomes Saint.

Justice?
the assumption, in this case, is that the outcome is known.

should've mixed in a "are you, god, a biggot?" ala alito hearings

[Cosmo]

It's not that a life of sin is ok as long as you believe. The real message is that if you believe, you won't lead a life of sin.

This would appear to be demonstrably untrue, given the numerous pedophilia/abuse cases found in the church.

[kedo1981]

The only sin that matters in Christianity (at least in terms of being rewarded with salvation) is not accepting the sacrifice of Jesus (as lord and savoir).

This is “spiritual cronyism” plan and simple; you join the club; you say the words and in the end you’re a made “man” no matter how big a SOB you are.

There is no indication of God (in the bible at least) handing out discipline to the faithful who deserve it (and there are many).

Doesn’t this mean heaven will have a significant number of inhabitants that are “getting off”?

[jjramsey]

The only sin that matters in Christianity (at least in terms of being rewarded with salvation) is not accepting the sacrifice of Jesus (as lord and savoir).

Did you even read what Meadmaker and I said, or are you going to insist that the sum total of Christianity is in the Gospel according to Hank (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshankbutt.php), regardless of the evidence?

[kedo1981]

First lets remember we are talking about Christian beliefs, not any thing that has any reality to it.
I did read your posts and while the bible does say you will judged by works, it repeatedly makes it clear that your salvation is only achieved by faith.
Please point out a Christian sect that believes other wise.
Paul being tortured latter in life does not change the fact that the 12 child he caused to loose faith and ends up in hell.

[jjramsey]

Please point out a Christian sect that believes other wise.

Salvation by faith alone is very much a Protestant thing. The Catholic Church has the practices of confession and penance as a way of taking away the stains of its adherents' sins. The Eastern Orthodox Church also has confession, and for its adherents, salvation is a process where one becomes progressively freer from sin, not a one-time event after which God will not punish for sin. See here:

Sometimes those who wax the most lyrical about salvation being something that only God has done once and for all in their lives at a particular time in the past go on to say, quite logically but wrongly, that this salvation cannot be lost. How can it be lost? If it’s all "done and dusted" in the past by God and Him alone, to suggest otherwise would be to compromise God’s almighty power and this, of course, is impossible. This heresy arises from denying the ongoing reality and role of our wills in the working out of our salvation throughout our lives. The practical result of this error is that nothing I can do now can prejudice a salvation that is firmly locked into my past and the sole action of God in saving me. The truth of our Orthodox faith, however, is that I can indeed lose my future salvation by refusing the present struggle that should be going on in my life right now for sanctification and truth, a saving faith which is changing me not once and for all but, as then, so now and for ever.

http://www.orthodox.clara.net/salvation_process.htm

This means that this statement of yours is wrong:

This is "spiritual cronyism" plan and simple; you join the club; you say the words and in the end you’re a made "man" no matter how big a SOB you are.

[kedo1981]

So the Catholics and E. Orthodox don’t believe in faith based salvation??????
I doubt that is very accurate; but even if it is, then my statement is still true for protestants.
No Christian would deny at least a possibility of a “death bed conversion”, how much working out of your sins can you do then.

[Skeptical Greg]

...
The man who killed and tortured christians no longer existed the day He recieved Christ as savior. How about his victims? Did they cease to exist also ?


Please don't bother quoting the bible if you don't have any thoughts of your own about this...

[Beleth]

The only sin that matters in Christianity (at least in terms of being rewarded with salvation) is not accepting the sacrifice of Jesus (as lord and savoir). The problem with this is that the logical course of action, if you believe this, is to kill every baby you can right after they have been baptized. While this will doom you to Hell, it will guarantee that the most possible souls end up in Heaven, and is thus the most selfless action you could possibly perform.

[Crispy Duck]

It's evolution. A religion which says 'be a good person, and you'll be saved' won't last five minutes, even if everyone is good. A religion which says 'join our religion, and you'll be saved' will have millions of members and thus will survive, possibly for thousands of years.

Ironic, isn't it?

:)

[Bri]

There are religions which have survived longer than Christianity without proselytising.

-Bri

[Meadmaker]

Did you even read what Meadmaker and I said, or are you going to insist that the sum total of Christianity is in the Gospel according to Hank (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshankbutt.php),

It's not the sum total of Christianity, but it is kinda funny. It's much wittier than most of the hack jobs on Christianity.

[jjramsey]

It's not the sum total of Christianity, but it is kinda funny. It's much wittier than most of the hack jobs on Christianity.

Oh, I agree. I've seen enough of Jack Chick's stuff, and heard enough Christians repeat Hankology to know that it is a pretty accurate satire of a good chunk of evangelical Protestant Christianity. My objection is that kedo1981 overgeneralized and assumed that popular evangelical theology applied to the whole of Christianity.

[Iacchus]

Ok Christianity’s basic most basic tenet.
“Whoever so believes in me (Jesus) shall have everlasting life”
Meaning, if you have the faith, you go dwell in heaven after judgment day, if not, eternal damnation.The belief in Jesus in name only or, the belief in the principle of Jesus? There are a whole multitude of things that can be justified in Jesus' name, and yet, have nothing to do with Jesus in principle.

[rharbers]

The belief in Jesus in name only or, the belief in the principle of Jesus? There are a whole multitude of things that can be justified in Jesus' name, and yet, have nothing to do with Jesus in principle.

That is because Christianity is an abstract. There are evil Christians, and to be fair, there are evil non-christians.