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Danhalen
16th January 2006, 11:43 PM
The starting point of any philosophy is very important to take note of. It is central to the understanding any person has of the universe that surrounds them. Whether that philosophy is one of morality or existence itself, there is probably one common epistemic process through all of them.

For the skeptic, I would have to say that this epistemological constant is one of parsimony. When I look at the things which seemingly make up the world I constantly question why they are. What is it that makes humankind moral? What is it that makes me look in awe at an object of beauty? How did existence come to be? From these questions I begin my search for the most straight forward explanation. Provided that the explanation has evidential support, I will go with the simplest explanation. For example: when I look at the actions of humanity that we label with the term “moral” or “immoral”, I try to understand why we think of them on these terms. What seems to stick out to me the most is people do things that are beneficial or “good” for them selves. When living in a solitary environment, there are no limits that a person need to place on what it is that will benefit them the most. When living side by side one individual may trample on the goodness of another in an effort to achieve the greatest amount of personal “good”. The major problem with this is: people can (and do) benefit from other people. So, in order to achieve the greatest amount of “good”, people have learned that there are boundaries that must be put in place to prevent the infringement of the good of one over the other. In this way people have developed morality in order to achieve the greatest amount of “good” in any given society. There are some things which almost always benefit any society, and these things are considered to be “universal moral laws”. It is by this process that I have come to understand what I believe to be morality. In order to best understand my existence, I apply this process to all things that I encounter. In the event that I discover something which does lead me to believe in the existence of a deity, I can include that in my worldview. There would be no need for me to reinvent all of my paradigms.

For some people, their search leads them to theism. A person may arrive at theism through a skeptical search, but some end the search there. Once this point has been reached; all of existence can be explained through their discovery of theism. Beauty is an expression of their god. Existence is the purposeful will of their god. Morality is instilled in us through their god. Outwardly, this appears to be the most parsimonious of all explanations. Everything can be answered through own single observation. There is, however, a major problem with this line of thinking. In the event the theist re-examines their observations (and finds fault in it), all of their prior beliefs come apart. With no solid foundation with which to support any of the theist’s worldviews, new paradigms must be achieved. Now, this individual must take the road traveled by the skeptic, to re-examine all of existence again and arrive at new conclusions. It seems to be too precarious of a place to put all of our beliefs in one single thing. Sure, gods may be the driving force behind all of the observations of this skeptic. Must god also be the foundations for all of them?

Iacchus
16th January 2006, 11:59 PM
Without a God, all we have is happenstance. Where do we find purpose in that?

Danhalen
17th January 2006, 12:03 AM
Without a God, all we have is happenstance. Where do we find purpose in that?What is it with theists and "purpose"? What is the purpose of a rock falling from the edge of a cliff? Perhaps you ought to be searching for a reason rather than a purpose.

TobiasTheViking
17th January 2006, 12:18 AM
Without a God, all we have is happenstance. Where do we find purpose in that?
Lets see, i have no good, and i have purpose.

I don't FIND a purpose, i create one.

My purpose is to have a good life, and to make as many people as possible have a good life.

Iacchus
17th January 2006, 12:26 AM
What is it with theists and "purpose"? What is the purpose of a brain? Why do we even have the capacity to question such things?

What is the purpose of a rock falling from the edge of a cliff? To sustain the Universe in such a way that creatures like us might come along some day and ask why? What is the purpose of anything really?

Perhaps you ought to be searching for a reason rather than a purpose.I guess I don't particularly find happenstance to be a good enough reason. Indeed, that would be like saying the whole Universe came about strictly as a result of osmosis due to some "unusual quirk" that happened in the beginning. And then ... all of a sudden, the whole thing decides to order itself? Come on now!

Beerina
17th January 2006, 08:33 AM
Innate drives and emotion give purpose. AI has a stumbling block of getting thinking engines to "want" to do something, a goal. Emotions and drives give us that impetus, and hence, purpose.

And, as usual, I bring up my tired ideas again. What actual "purpose" is there to the standard Christian view of the universe?

God wants to filter out the good guys from the bad, to filter out those who, say, help the poor and sick, from those who abuse people.

And he rewards those who help others by placing them in a heaven where that skill is utterly useless for the rest of eternity?

Sounds like a gigantic, purposeless waste of time to me. "Your purpose is to supplicate to your creator in hopes he won't do any worse to you than you've already done. By the way, there's no proof of this, and he wants it that way. So you will go to Hell, but there's no proof of it, but you will!"

The last bit sounds like those two Canadian cops played by the Kids in the Hall. "You're under arrest. Oh, wait. It's time to go off shift. You will meet us here tomorrow so we can arrest you. But legally, you don't have to."

Just thinking
17th January 2006, 11:35 AM
I guess I don't particularly find happenstance to be a good enough reason. Indeed, that would be like saying the whole Universe came about strictly as a result of osmosis due to some "unusual quirk" that happened in the beginning. And then ... all of a sudden, the whole thing decides to order itself? Come on now!

The above speaks volumes ... it all boils down to how you feel about reality that determines its composition. If something is to your disliking, you simply dismiss it and replace it with what makes you more comfortable? Can you imagine if science was used in this manner -- drug research, electronic theory, biology, social behavior, etc.? There is no reason to think that happenstance is bad or unpleasant. In fact, it makes it all the more incredible and enlightening to realize that we have this opportunity to do what must be very reare in this immense Universe -- take a chance at understanding it and ourselves. It's amazing to me how so many will throw that chance away and replace it with fantasy and delusion.

gnome
17th January 2006, 12:27 PM
What is the purpose of a brain? Why do we even have the capacity to question such things?

To sustain the Universe in such a way that creatures like us might come along some day and ask why? What is the purpose of anything really?

I guess I don't particularly find happenstance to be a good enough reason. Indeed, that would be like saying the whole Universe came about strictly as a result of osmosis due to some "unusual quirk" that happened in the beginning. And then ... all of a sudden, the whole thing decides to order itself? Come on now!

And yet you seem to ignore it when people describe how to get a sense of purpose without God. It's the main question of your post, and you've simply bypassed a significant response... what's the matter?

Iacchus
17th January 2006, 01:19 PM
And yet you seem to ignore it when people describe how to get a sense of purpose without God. It's the main question of your post, and you've simply bypassed a significant response... what's the matter?Yes, people by nature seem to be endowed with purpose. Now, how does this go against the notion that God might have instilled that purpose into them? Mind you, I'm not suggesting that it's necessary for God's to sign His name to everything.

gnome
17th January 2006, 03:54 PM
Yes, people by nature seem to be endowed with purpose. Now, how does this go against the notion that God might have instilled that purpose into them? Mind you, I'm not suggesting that it's necessary for God's to sign His name to everything.
You're still changing the subject. In your world people are endowed with purpose by a God. We know that you feel that way, but it's not relevant to the point. You have been talking about a world without God and how purposeless it would be. How is it then, you so far turn a deaf ear or change the subject when someone tries to describe how purpose can exist in such a world?

Iacchus
17th January 2006, 08:14 PM
You're still changing the subject. In your world people are endowed with purpose by a God. We know that you feel that way, but it's not relevant to the point. You have been talking about a world without God and how purposeless it would be. How is it then, you so far turn a deaf ear or change the subject when someone tries to describe how purpose can exist in such a world?No, I'm saying people are edowed with purpose, period ... whether it appears to have anything to do with God or not.

Beerina
17th January 2006, 08:17 PM
What purpose is this God has endowed us with?

Iacchus
17th January 2006, 08:38 PM
What purpose is this God has endowed us with?You don't feel it makes a difference when a person experiences a sense of usefulness about what one does? To some folks this is all that matters.

Danhalen
17th January 2006, 08:40 PM
What is the purpose of a brain?I do not think there is any purpose beyond that which we impose.

Why do we even have the capacity to question such things?I suppose it is because of the way our cognition has evolved.

To sustain the Universe in such a way that creatures like us might come along some day and ask why?Wouldn't this imply the rock has consciousness?

What is the purpose of anything really?I don't know. You tell me. I don't think "purpose" is an intrinsic value.

I guess I don't particularly find happenstance to be a good enough reason.I don't particularly find presupposition of purpose sound reasoning. Aren't you really just confirming your own bias when you go looking for a purpose you already assume?

Indeed, that would be like saying the whole Universe came about strictly as a result of osmosis due to some "unusual quirk" that happened in the beginning. And then ... all of a sudden, the whole thing decides to order itself? Come on now!Yeah, that's just crazy talk! I mean, c'mon! Everyone knows only a purposeful creator can decide to form and organize itself. It's obvious to anyone there is a purpose to it all.

And what, exactly, is the purpose behind the creator?

It's amazing how you were able to derail a thread in one post. You truly have a talent. Is thread derailment your purpose?

Dr Adequate
17th January 2006, 11:20 PM
What is the purpose of a brain?In your case? To keep your ears a respectable distance apart.

(It's like shooting a dolphin in a barrel...)

gnome
18th January 2006, 07:19 AM
No, I'm saying people are edowed with purpose, period ... whether it appears to have anything to do with God or not.

Still worming away from the issue--you asserted that without God there is no purpose. Have you changed your mind?

Mercutio
18th January 2006, 07:36 AM
What is the purpose of a brain?
I am not even going to start to dissect your whole post...just want to point something out. You have claimed, fairly often, that you understand our world view, you simply do not accept it. This question you ask, however, indicates that you have no understanding of natural selection at all. The question itself presupposes a world view that is prescientific; the question was answered (or rather, shown to be irrelevant) with the theory of evolution by natural selection. Or, we could answer it trivially--the purpose of a brain is to help those organism with one to reproduce. (even that is not quite right-- "purpose" suggests intent, and there is none. Better, "the brain exists because those organisms with brains and protobrains were better able to reproduce in previous generations." Even that glosses over quite a bit about their particular niche--after all, bacteria do just fine without brains.)

Anyway...the very phrasing of your question presupposes a particular type of answer. If you are seriously interested in exploring the subject, you will learn to rephrase.