If the Rapture occured, would Superman fight against God?

[Beerina]

If God existed, and if Superman existed, and the Rapture occured, would Superman fight against God for throwing people into Hell? Would he try to save them?

He would have no difficulty busting through the crust of the Earth to get down there. If God threw Superman into Hell for being a heathen, Superman could escape pretty well, to say nothing about beating up the devils and demons down there.

But seriously, as a philosophical point, good people would stand up against God for throwing, say, an Islamic child into Hell. (Or, for that matter, a Christian child, should Islam be correct.)

Joe Doe lived a decent, caring life. He just didn't believe in God. God decides to give Joe an eternal life of pain and misery. Wouldn't Superman, or any caring, good individual, try to save Joe? Isn't believing in God so you don't get punished a practical, but cowardly, philosophy? And don't say you want to "save Joe" preemptively before he dies/the Rapture occurs, because God also wants you to be good, which is good. Joe is good, but is going to Hell anyway.

[kedo1981]

Superman is'nt human so he has no soul

[Abdul Alhazred]

Superman would be on God's side, because Superman is a dick (http://www.superdickery.com/).

[Iacchus]

I find Superman to be rather superficial and patronizing myself. God, on the other hand, tends to leave people to their own devices ... yes, even those who claim to come in his name.

[NoZed Avenger]

Superman is not resistant to magic, which would presumably include divine or diabolic powers. I don't think he would therefore necessarily escape as easily as you imagine.

[Tormac]

Since God created the whole universe, he would probly make a "Krypton Hell" full of molten kryptonite for everyone from Krypton, superman included, if they did not accept the one true faith (what ever faith that happens to be). Assuming of course that Superman, and other people from krypton were real, and that God and hell were also real.

[headscratcher4]

Couldn't superman...by flying very fast and counter to the earth's rotation eventually reverse the rotation (a'la the Superman movie) and make the earth go backwards in time, thus avoiding the whole rapture?

[rharbers]

I find Superman to be rather superficial and patronizing myself. God, on the other hand, tends to leave people to their own devices ... yes, even those who claim to come in his name.

Oh come on now. God is a myth. Superman is a real guy!

[Beerina]

Superman would be on God's side, because Superman is a dick (http://www.superdickery.com/).

Touché

[gnome]

I can't help but think of Tom the Dancing Bug's "God-Man" comics.

God man uses his "omnipotence" power to eliminate the threat.

(shows bearded God snapping his fingers to destroy some great evil, and then going back to watching soaps on a cloud-mounted TV)

[kurious_kathy]

If God existed, and if Superman existed, and the Rapture occured, would Superman fight against God for throwing people into Hell? Would he try to save them?

He would have no difficulty busting through the crust of the Earth to get down there. If God threw Superman into Hell for being a heathen, Superman could escape pretty well, to say nothing about beating up the devils and demons down there.

But seriously, as a philosophical point, good people would stand up against God for throwing, say, an Islamic child into Hell. (Or, for that matter, a Christian child, should Islam be correct.)

Joe Doe lived a decent, caring life. He just didn't believe in God. God decides to give Joe an eternal life of pain and misery. Wouldn't Superman, or any caring, good individual, try to save Joe? Isn't believing in God so you don't get punished a practical, but cowardly, philosophy? And don't say you want to "save Joe" preemptively before he dies/the Rapture occurs, because God also wants you to be good, which is good. Joe is good, but is going to Hell anyway.
The real question and reality is the antichrist, not Superman. And there are many that will take his point of view unfortunately. But when the rapture happens and the Holy Spirit is removed from this world it will become even more evil than it is now. The tribulation period will last for seven years, then Jesus will return to reighn on earth for 1000 years. Personally I can' wait!! The first 3 and half years of the tribulation period...this world leader will deceive many into thinking he is God. The last 3 and half years will be when he tries to get even the Jews that he tricks into rebuilding the temple for their God and then he will put an image of himself and try to make the Jews worship it. There are many Jews that will rebell and come to faith in the tribulation period because of this one act by the antichrist. ( They will finally know Jesus is the Mesiah and accept him!)
The tribulation period will basically be hell on earth and if you take the mark of the beast 666 you will go into hell forever. But if you come to faith in Christ at that time you can and will most likely lose your life. Reminds me of the Holocaust but it will even be worse than that. The idea of it cuts me to the core!My plea with people is to find the Lord now while he still may be found.

[rharbers]

and if you take the mark of the beast 666 you will go into hell forever.


I thought 666 was the number of his name, and not the mark.

[kmortis]

My plea with people is to find the Lord now while he still may be found.

Ya know all those times we've asked you not to preach to us?
This is what it looks like!
Please, stop preaching to us. We've reached a truce, for the moment, but it won't last long if you can't learn this one simple lesson. Stop preaching.

I thought 666 was the number of his name, and not the mark.
668 - Neighbor of the Beast.

[rharbers]

668 - Neighbor of the Beast.

Then 669 is the other Neighbor?

[kurious_kathy]

I thought 666 was the number of his name, and not the mark. Have you read the book of Revelation? I think it is referred to mainly as the mark of the beast...but I will have to re-read and see if there is any mention of it as his name? Anyway it's soooo bad!!

And as far as KMORTIS is concerned...I will speak my truth just as everyone else on this board does. I believe God!!

[TobiasTheViking]

The real question and reality is the antichrist, not Superman.
And he is real, by Satan he is real.

And there are many that will take his point of view unfortunately.
Too many that side with the weak pathetic Gunderscored

But when the rapture happens and the Holy Spirit is removed from this world it will become even more evil than it is now.
Now, it will become filled with people who can think and act for themselves.

The tribulation period will last for seven years, then Jesus will return to reighn on earth for 1000 years. Personally I can' wait!! The first 3 and half years of the tribulation period...this world leader will deceive many into thinking he is God. The last 3 and half years will be when he trie to get even the Jews that he tricks into rebuilding the temple for their God and then he will put an image of himself and try to make the Jews worship it.
He he, wrong again, Your god will fail, because his followers have no will or power at all. While, once this glorious day comes, me and my fellow followers of Lucifer will rice up to the cause. And fight with all he have given us.

And the plentifull people of the other religions will see where the truth is, where the strength is.

Remember, it was Gunderscored that didn't want us to know, it was he that forbid us to taste the fruit of knowledge, doesn't that say a lot.

There are many Jews that will rebell and come to faith in the tribulation period because of this one act by the antichrist.
Hopefully more will see the truth, and join us.

The tribulation period will basically be hell on earth and if you take the mark of the beast 666 you will go into hell forever.
No, it will only be hell for you people who fight for Gunderscored.

But if you come to faith in Christ at that time you can and will most likely lose your life. Reminds me of the Holocaust but it will even be worse than that. The idea of it cuts me to the core!
Well, look at it this way, if you all just turn to Satan, the holocaust will be evaded :)

I am just trying to make you a stronger person, both in spirit and in body. Satan will do that for you.


My plea with people is to find the Lord now while he still may be found.
I agree with that. The lord of TRUTH, Satan. Lucifer. Shaitan.

[headscratcher4]

Jesus will return to reighn on earth for 1000 years.

Given the supposeldly infinite nature of god and salvation, a thousand years seems like a remarkably short period of time...what happens after the 1000 years? Jesus abdicates and moves to Miami? Will there be a jesus jr.? Satan come back? God destroys the universe and starts over?

BTW, does all oft this mean Superman is the anti-christ?

[TobiasTheViking]

Have you read the book of Revelation? I think it is referred to mainly as the mark of the beast...but I will have to re-read and see if there is any mention of it as his name? Anyway it's soooo bad!!

And as far as KMORTIS is concerned...I will speak my truth just as everyone else on this board does. I believe God!!
Speaking of the truth. Why would Gunderscored with hold that truth from us? And now you come claiming Gunderscored is the truth? Bah.

The Truth is Satan.

[Genesius]

Have you read the book of Revelation? I think it is referred to mainly as the mark of the beast...but I will have to re-read and see if there is any mention of it as his name? Anyway it's soooo bad!!

And as far as KMORTIS is concerned...I will speak my truth just as everyone else on this board does. I believe God!!

F'r crying out loud, Kathy! We have a nice, light-hearted thread going here and you have to ruin things by dumping a load of preaching on it. Go away and don't come back until you grow a sense of humor, m'kay?

[TobiasTheViking]

F'r crying out loud, Kathy! We have a nice, light-hearted thread going here and you have to ruin things by dumping a load of preaching on it. Go away and don't come back until you grow a sense of humor, m'kay?
And then you go and ruin it all by doing something stupid like preaaaacchh

[rharbers]

Have you read the book of Revelation? I think it is referred to mainly as the mark of the beast...but I will have to re-read and see if there is any mention of it as his name? Anyway it's soooo bad!!

And as far as KMORTIS is concerned...I will speak my truth just as everyone else on this board does. I believe God!!

Actually, I once memorized the first 10 verses. It's the number of his name. No one is sure what the mark looks like. I listened to one preacher who believes the mark to be a computer chip under the skin. Woo.....

[brodski]

Actually, I once memorized the first 10 verses. It's the number of his name. No one is sure what the mark looks like. I listened to one preacher who believes the mark to be a computer chip under the skin. Woo.....

yeah and all bar codes are based around "666" :p

[rharbers]

Here let me help you out:

13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

[rharbers]

yeah and all bar codes are based around "666" :p

You heard that too!

[Iacchus]

Hey, did you know that the name Jesus = 666? That's right, if you add the numerical value of each letter in his name (10 + 5 + 19 + 21 + 19), you get 74 which, when multiplied by 9, you get 666. Hmm ... Maybe anti-Christ is just another name for anti-Jesus/666?

[rharbers]

Hey, did you know that the name Jesus = 666? That's right, if you add the numerical value of the letters in his name (10 + 5 + 19 + 21 + 19) you get 74 which, when you multiply it by 9, you get 666. Hmm ... Maybe anti-christ is just another name for anti-Jesus/666?

What does Iacchus add up to?

[headscratcher4]

Why multiply by 9? The number of the apostles minus the 3 marginal ones?

[kurious_kathy]

Hey, did you know that the name Jesus = 666? That's right, if you add the numerical value of each letter in his name (10 + 5 + 19 + 21 + 19), you get 74 which, when multiplied by 9, you get 666. Hmm ... Maybe anti-Christ is just another name for anti-Jesus/666?
Don't pull that numerology crap on me. Been there done that in my past and it's all crap.
Jesus stands for Savior!

[TobiasTheViking]

Don't pull that numerology crap on me. Been there done that in my past and it's all crap.
Jesus stands for Savior!
Satan stands for Truth!

[Iacchus]

Don't pull that numerology crap on me. Been there done that in my past and it's all crap.
Jesus stands for Savior!It says it right here ...

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. ~ Matthew 24:4-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=9)This doesn't sound like the anti-Jesus/Christ/666 to you?

[Genesius]

Don't pull that numerology crap on me. Been there done that in my past and it's all crap.
Jesus stands for Savior!

Kathy, what part of "Don't preach on these boards!" don't you f'king understand?

:bwall

[Cosmo]

Hey, did you know that the name Jesus = 666? That's right, if you add the numerical value of each letter in his name (10 + 5 + 19 + 21 + 19), you get 74 which, when multiplied by 9, you get 666. Hmm ... Maybe anti-Christ is just another name for anti-Jesus/666?

kurious_kathy shoots; Iacchus grabs the rebound!

[Ipecac]

The real question and reality is the antichrist, not Superman. And there are many that will take his point of view unfortunately. But when the rapture happens and the Holy Spirit is removed from this world it will become even more evil than it is now. The tribulation period will last for seven years, then Jesus will return to reighn on earth for 1000 years. Personally I can' wait!! The first 3 and half years of the tribulation period...this world leader will deceive many into thinking he is God. The last 3 and half years will be when he tries to get even the Jews that he tricks into rebuilding the temple for their God and then he will put an image of himself and try to make the Jews worship it. There are many Jews that will rebell and come to faith in the tribulation period because of this one act by the antichrist. ( They will finally know Jesus is the Mesiah and accept him!)
The tribulation period will basically be hell on earth and if you take the mark of the beast 666 you will go into hell forever. But if you come to faith in Christ at that time you can and will most likely lose your life. Reminds me of the Holocaust but it will even be worse than that. The idea of it cuts me to the core!My plea with people is to find the Lord now while he still may be found.

How sad that you live your life according to this pathetic fantasy.

[Beleth]

The tribulation period will basically be hell on earth and if you take the mark of the beast 666 you will go into hell forever. But if you come to faith in Christ at that time you can and will most likely lose your life. So it's still possible to not be taken up by the Rapture but still end up in Heaven? All you have to do is come to faith in Christ during the seven years of tribulation?

If that's true, then that's my new plan of action. As it should be for all rational-minded people.

PS - The mark of the beast is 616.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Have you read the book of Revelation? I think it is referred to mainly as the mark of the beast...but I will have to re-read and see if there is any mention of it as his name? Anyway it's soooo bad!!

And as far as KMORTIS is concerned...I will speak my truth just as everyone else on this board does. I believe God!!

Funny KK, the word "anti-christ" and "rapture" do not appear in the revelations of St. John. But since you spent the last year studying the New Testament I thought you would know that...

LLH

[UrsulaV]

Why multiply by 9? The number of the apostles minus the 3 marginal ones?

I was wondering that myself!

Maybe Jesus is only 1/9th of the Antichrist. And when he hooks up with the other eight messiahs, they'll form...CAPTAIN PLANET!

Hey, it's no stupider than any of the rest of it...

[kmortis]

Why multiply by 9? The number of the apostles minus the 3 marginal ones?
What about the kangaroo?

Do the fat saviour balance out the two skinny saviours?

[slingblade]

So it's still possible to not be taken up by the Rapture but still end up in Heaven? All you have to do is come to faith in Christ during the seven years of tribulation?

Hate to disappoint everyone but Kathy, but in spite of reams of words written about this so-called "secret rapture," there is no support for it in the Holy Babble.

According to BibleStudy.org at http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/rapture.html:

Will a Secret Rapture Occur Before Jesus Returns?

There is no Biblical foundation for a belief in a "rapture". The Bible teaches that Jesus will return to this earth and set up His kingdom and rule for a "thousand years" (however long that is to God):

[a quote from Revelation 20:1-6 follows]

The Bible does not teach that He will come and take some away to heaven first and then come back later to rule.

The idea of a rapture is said to have originated with a Spanish Catholic Jesuit named Ribera, in 1580 A.D. (See "The Rapture of the Wicked", by Stephen E. Jones and "The Rapture of the Saints", by Duncan McDougall.) During a time of much bloodshed in Europe as Catholics persecuted and killed their opponents, this doctrine said that Christ was going to come and secretly snatch away the Church before a great seven-year tribulation, when the "anti-Christ" would rule the world. This futurist interpretation of the book of Revelation, along with the future coming of the Antichrist, was designed to take the pressure off the Pope, who was universally regarded as being the antichrist by His opponents.

The Bible teaches nothing about a "rapture". The word is not found in any standard Bible translation.

So don't sweat it. It's just another fairy tale nestled in among the other fairy tales.

....and the Mark of the Breast is just a bad tattoo you got one drunken night in Tijuana.

[kmortis]

Have you read the book of Revelation? I think it is referred to mainly as the mark of the beast...but I will have to re-read and see if there is any mention of it as his name? Anyway it's soooo bad!!

And as far as KMORTIS is concerned...I will speak my truth just as everyone else on this board does. I believe God!!
Kathy,
Respectfully, go (rule 8) yourself.

No, seriously. Just go (rule 8)ing (rule 8) yourself. I've been rather nice to you. Yeah, I joke, but I haven't gotten nasty. We've asked you MULTIPLE times not to preach here, and yet, you seem to think that it's ok to continue to do so. You ignorant slut. I'm so happy that your rat bastard of a deity bring you some kind of pleasure, but he's a lie. A stupid, outmoded, lie told by jaded idiots to simple morons like you.

Enjoy your little lie.

Oh, stop preaching. Enjoy the kittens and poetry.

[TobiasTheViking]

hence my initial idea, join Satan :D

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Hate to disappoint everyone but Kathy, but in spite of reams of words written about this so-called "secret rapture," there is no support for it in the Holy Babble.

According to BibleStudy.org at http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/rapture.html:


How dare you infer that the experts at biblestudy.org know more about the bible than my TV minister or some guy who wrote some fiction books!

LLH

[slingblade]

How dare you infer that the experts at biblestudy.org know more about the bible than my TV minister or some guy who wrote some fiction books!

LLH


I know, I know. The utter gall of me.

Besides, my god can beat up your god.

Mine has turbo.

[kurious_kathy]

How dare you infer that the experts at biblestudy.org know more about the bible than my TV minister or some guy who wrote some fiction books!

LLH

This is where I strongly disagree with you. Many churches don't study the book of Revelations, but they need to. There is much to be learned from it.
And just because these prophecies are not fullfilled, we are in the process of seeing it unfold. Yes physical evidence of thousands of people will be taken and there will not be an explanation for it to the unbelievers. Or actually it is said that the anti-christ will make up a big fat lie that many will buy into. ( Like maybe they were abducted by aliens) Yah right!
We believers in Christ know he's coming back to finish what he began. What do you think God is saying to us when He says he is the alpha and the omega?

[Ducky]

This is where I strongly disagree with you. Many churches don't study the book of Revelations, but they need to. There is much to be learned from it.
And just because these prophecies are not fullfilled, we are in the process of seeing it unfold. Yes physical evidence of thousands of people will be taken and there will not be an explanation for it to the unbelievers. Or actually it is said that the anti-christ will make up a big fat lie that many will buy into.
We believers in Christ know he's coming back to finish what he began. What do you think God is saying to us when He says he is the alpha and the omega?



So you study revelations, but don't know that the words "anti-christ" and "rapture" don't appear once in it?

[kmortis]

This is where I strongly disagree with you. Many churches don't study the book of Revelations, but they need to. There is much to be learned from it.
And just because these prophecies are not fullfilled, we are in the process of seeing it unfold. Yes physical evidence of thousands of people will be taken and there will not be an explanation for it to the unbelievers. Or actually it is said that the anti-christ will make up a big fat lie that many will buy into. ( Like maybe they were abducted by aliens) Yah right!
We believers in Christ know he's coming back to finish what he began. What do you think God is saying to us when He says he is the alpha and the omega?
Hey, dimbulb, it's the Book of Revelation. Singular. Not multiple revelations, just one. And it's all false.

[Spidey13]

What do you think God is saying to us when He says he is the alpha and the omega?

That he joined a a frat in college?

[TobiasTheViking]

That he joined a a frat in college?
:dl:

[Spidey13]

Back on topic, I believe Superman would fight against God. Superman is 100% against killing, even when it comes to the worst scum of the earth. He has fought many other superheroes who wanted to kill a certain bad guy. Superman would have none of that. Seeing as God has no problems with murdering people, even innocent children, I think Superman would do everything possible to stop him.

Man, I think we really should worship Superman instead.

[Ducky]

Back on topic, I believe Superman would fight against God. Superman is 100% against killing, even when it comes to the worst scum of the earth. He has fought many other superheroes who wanted to kill a certain bad guy. Superman would have none of that. Seeing as God has no problems with murdering people, even innocent children, I think Superman would do everything possible to stop him.

Man, I think we really should worship Superman instead.



Superman is on vacation, and told me that in his place, you may worship me.


HEAR THAT KATHY?! I'M THE ANTICHRIST!

[TobiasTheViking]

Back on topic, I believe Superman would fight against God. Superman is 100% against killing, even when it comes to the worst scum of the earth. He has fought many other superheroes who wanted to kill a certain bad guy. Superman would have none of that. Seeing as God has no problems with murdering people, even innocent children, I think Superman would do everything possible to stop him.

Man, I think we really should worship Superman instead.
Superman, Satan. It's all good, both have an S :)

Santa would go as well :D

[TobiasTheViking]

Superman is on vacation, and told me that in his place, you may worship me.


HEAR THAT KATHY?! I'M THE ANTICHRIST!
Well, i'm the ANTI-FREAK, so (rule 8) you.

;)

[Ducky]

Well, i'm the ANTI-FREAK, so (rule 8) you.

;)


Good. Together we shall rule Zod.



(Or was Zod the bad guy? I can never remember. f*** it let's just go take over Narnia and make Ian cry.)

[kurious_kathy]

So you study revelations, but don't know that the words "anti-christ" and "rapture" don't appear once in it? Ahh.. you need to look a bit closer. Read the Chapters that cover the breaking of the seals. If you look closely before judgemnt is on the earth his people are taken up.
And there is mentioned he will gather his people from all the four corners of the earth, I gotta find it but I know it's in there.
Oh yah...and the beast, the anti-christ is mentioned.

[TobiasTheViking]

Good. Together we shall rule Zod.



(Or was Zod the bad guy? I can never remember. f*** it let's just go take over Narnia and make Ian cry.)
AND planet X.

MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

[Spidey13]

Is God a Marvel or DC chararacter? This could make a difference in the outcome.

[slingblade]

Back on topic, I believe Superman would fight against God. Superman is 100% against killing, even when it comes to the worst scum of the earth. He has fought many other superheroes who wanted to kill a certain bad guy. Superman would have none of that. Seeing as God has no problems with murdering people, even innocent children, I think Superman would do everything possible to stop him.

Man, I think we really should worship Superman instead.

Whuh? Supe, not Spidey? You think he doesn't have the spinnerettes it takes to defy an insane God?

Wait....mind movie....I see God....as a super-villain. And it's going to be okay.

He wears a cape, you see.

And we all know what happens to super-villains who wear capes....

[Ducky]

Ahh.. you need to look a bit closer. Read the Chapters that cover the breaking of the seals. If you look closely before judgemnt is on the earth his people are taken up.
And there is mentioned he will gather his people from all the four corners of the earth, I gotta find it but I know it's in there.



Nice try.

Bring me verses please. You have been told time and again to provide evidence to back up your claim. You mean to tell me you don't have a bible at arm's reach all the time?

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Ahh.. you need to look a bit closer. Read the Chapters that cover the breaking of the seals. If you look closely before judgemnt is on the earth his people are taken up.
And there is mentioned he will gather his people from all the four corners of the earth, I gotta find it but I know it's in there.
Oh yah...and the beast, the anti-christ is mentioned.

Book, chapter and verse please.

LLH

[Jitterbuggery]

You guys! Stop picking on Kathy! She OBVIOUSLY has a huge crush on you. She loves you soooo much she wants to save your souls so you guys can spend eternity together! I mean, she can't REALLY be trying to preach the word of God to you! If God wanted her to preach to you, He would have made her smarter than her posts. Duh.

[Ducky]

You guys! Stop picking on Kathy! She OBVIOUSLY has a huge crush on you. She loves you soooo much she wants to save your souls so you guys can spend eternity together! I mean, she can't REALLY be trying to preach the word of God to you! If God wanted her to preach to you, He would have made her smarter than her posts. Duh.



Is that it?


Kathy are you looking to be a naughty girl with some athiest orgies?

[slingblade]

Ah, she never saw the blurb from BibleStudy.org. She has me on ignore, I imagine, and so for her, I don't exist.

Much like God, Kathy's reason, and Kathy's sanity.

[kurious_kathy]

Nice try.

Bring me verses please. You have been told time and again to provide evidence to back up your claim. You mean to tell me you don't have a bible at arm's reach all the time?Chapeter 13 in Revelations goes into great detail about the ant-christ. If you really want to understand it do you have a Bible to read?

[Iacchus]

Why multiply by 9? The number of the apostles minus the 3 marginal ones?From this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=652017#post652017)

Just some further corroboration regarding the number 9 here ...

09-90 .. 18-81 .. 27-72 .. 36-63 .. 45-54 .. 54-45 .. 63-36 .. 72-27 .. 81-18 .. 90-09

Notice the symmetry between each set of numbers and how they all add up to 99? e.g., 81 + 18 = 99.

Also, look at the 63-36 set where, you can add 630 + 036 to get 666 or, you can divide 63 by 9 and 36 by 9 and get 7 and 4 or, 74. Hence 74 x 9 = 666. Now isn't that strange? And notice it only works with this one set.

By the way, 70 x 9 = 630 and 04 x 9 = 036. Whereas 630 + 036 = 666. So this is where you get your extra 0's ... in case anyone needs to know.

[Ducky]

Ah, she never saw the blurb from BibleStudy.org. She has me on ignore, I imagine, and so for her, I don't exist.

Much like God, Kathy's reason, and Kathy's sanity.



I doubt it. She specifically ignores things that contradict her understanding of the bible.

In fact, she's posted at least 4 times since I asked her to explain the bible passages on rape. I'm sure she'll ignore that too.

[kmortis]

Ahh.. you need to look a bit closer. Read the Chapters that cover the breaking of the seals. If you look closely before judgemnt is on the earth his people are taken up.
And there is mentioned he will gather his people from all the four corners of the earth, I gotta find it but I know it's in there.
Oh yah...and the beast, the anti-christ is mentioned.
What, you mean this?
Revelation 6
The Seals

1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages,[b] and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

and

Revelation 7
144,000 Sealed

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
The Great Multitude in White Robes

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"

13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

You Jewish? Oh, you must be one of the multitudes in whie robes. The Redshirts of heaven.

Of course, the "tribulation" is located in the science fiction Book of Revelation inbetween the sixth and seventh seals. So, sometime after the earthquake, but before trumpets. Of course, this is all fiction. Bad fiction at that. John was suffering from starvation and possibly some of the hallucenigens found on Patmos.

[Ducky]

Chapeter 13 in Revelations goes into great detail about the ant-christ. If you really want to understand it do you have a Bible to read?


Please show me the verse that specifically talks about the "antichrist."

Please do that now.

[DigitalHoser]

Kathy, do us all a favor. SHUT UP WITH THE PREACHING! Good GOD!

Back to topic, I think God would poke Superman in the eye and tell him to go fly into a tree. After all, with only one working eye, you lose all depth perception!

Kmortis, I thought it was 667 for Satan's neighbor, or is it 1600 Pennsylvania Ave? I get all mixed up. Oh well. I'll send Stupid-man a letter bomb with kryptonite in it and laugh as he gets a face full of capacitor shrapnel. (Yes, capacitors. a 1 watt capacitor is 1.5" long and the diameter of a U.S. Quarter. It can pack a massive whallop when detonated. I know firsthand. I did it in C.I.E. class at college.)

So sue me. I don't like Super-stupidman. I prefer the Hulk.:D

[kmortis]

Please show me the verse that specifically talks about the "antichrist."

Please do that now.
Here, I'll even make it easy for you, you lazy slut.

Lot of Beast talk, little Anti-christ.

Oh, while we're on the subject, has Satan been loost from his prision (rev 20:7) yet? Has his millenial reign started? Where is Gog and Magog? Where has any of the "prophecy" from Revelation come true?

Revelation 13

1And the dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea.
The Beast out of the Sea

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"

5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.[b]

9He who has an ear, let him hear.
10If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
The Beast out of the Earth

11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

[Ducky]

Here, I'll even make it easy for you, you lazy slut.

Lot of Beast talk, little Anti-christ.

Oh, while we're on the subject, has Satan been loost from his prision (rev 20:7) yet? Has his millenial reign started? Where is Gog and Magog? Where has any of the "prophecy" from Revelation come true?



So the antichrist is a lizard?

[slingblade]

The word is mentioned one time in the Babble, and it's not in Revelation.
A bucket of fifties to the first person that finds it!

(God's holding the money for me; you can collect from him any time. He promised.)

[Ducky]

Chapeter 13 in Revelations goes into great detail about the ant-christ. If you really want to understand it do you have a Bible to read?




You are again ignoring the point of this board.

You are the one making claims. You are the one required to back them up with evidence. kmortis has done this for you. It won't happen again.

Now. Where in all that drivel about dragons is the word "antichrist"? Or will you now admit you are reading allegory into this story?

[LawnOven]

the ant christ?

[kmortis]

So the antichrist is a lizard?
Well, you have to understand that the Anti-Christ is never mentioned, per se. he shows up as a Beast from the sea(Ch 13: 1-10), a Beast from the Earth (ch 13: 11-18) and a Dragon (Ch 12). The word "antichrist" never appears in Revelation. It appears in first and second John, but not his final book.

[kurious_kathy]

Ah, she never saw the blurb from BibleStudy.org. She has me on ignore, I imagine, and so for her, I don't exist.

Much like God, Kathy's reason, and Kathy's sanity.Yes I just looked at it. My kids just got home from school so I can't just sit at my pc if you know what I mean? I don't put anyone on my ignore list unless they ask me to.

But back to the subject of the rapture...look at Chapter 4 and 5 starting with the 24 elders which has been interpreted by many theologians as the raptured church.

[Ducky]

Yes I just looked at it. My kids just got home from school so I can't just sit at my pc if you know what I mean? I don't put anyone on my ignore list unless they ask me to.
But back to the subject of the rapture...look at Chapter 4 and 5 starting with the 24 four elders which has been interpreted by many theologians as the raptured church.



Many theologians?

Which ones?


If you're not going to spend the time to provide sources to cite, then don't throw out your drivel. You will be called on it, every single time.


ETA: You still haven't answered any questions in this post. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1386951#post1386951)

Surely you have time to answer it, since you're responding so much here in this thread.

[kmortis]

Many theologians?

Which ones?


If you're not going to spend the time to provide sources to cite, then don't throw out your drivel. You will be called on it, every single time.
Can we play fallacy bingo with her? I got Appeal to Authority!

[slingblade]

I doubt it. She specifically ignores things that contradict her understanding of the bible.

In fact, she's posted at least 4 times since I asked her to explain the bible passages on rape. I'm sure she'll ignore that too.

Ah, I see. Thanks, Fowl.

And on-topic again, I actually think the Thing, my personal hero and pre-teen crush, could take on God AND a few of the bigger angels. Flaming sword my happy behind. It's clobberin' time!

Oh, and God would have to be Marvel. They have a real knack with psychologically-troubled super-villains.

[kmortis]

Nice try.

Bring me verses please. You have been told time and again to provide evidence to back up your claim. You mean to tell me you don't have a bible at arm's reach all the time?
Yeah, especially since there's numerous versions online. I'm currently C&Ping from bible.com, although I've use others.

[kurious_kathy]

Many theologians?

Which ones?


If you're not going to spend the time to provide sources to cite, then don't throw out your drivel. You will be called on it, every single time. The one I most recently heard is David Jeremiah...Pastor of a church in San Diego. I also think many of the pastors from Calvery Chapel too... I'll have to go back and research that a bit more. Remember I do not claim to be an expert.. or a theologian...just a good student.
It does take time to study the word so don't give me such a hard time if I do not happen to have everything you are asking for every single time.

[Ducky]

The one I most recently heard is David Jeremiah...Pastor of a church in San Diego. I also think many of the pastors from Calvery Chapel too... I'll have to go back and research that a bit more. Remenber I do not claim to be an expert..



Unfortunately you are debating experts, and you will be held to that level.

Bring back sources.


and again:

You still haven't answered any questions in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1386951#post1386951).

[kmortis]

Yes I just looked at it. My kids just got home from school so I can't just sit at my pc if you know what I mean? I don't put anyone on my ignore list unless they ask me to.

But back to the subject of the rapture...look at Chapter 4 and 5 starting with the 24 elders which has been interpreted by many theologians as the raptured church.
**Wipes sweat from his brow** Oh, man was that tough..now, what were you saying?

Revelation 4
The Throne in Heaven

1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.

In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." 9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."
Revelation 5
The Scroll and the Lamb

1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"

13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!" 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

[slingblade]

Funny. I see nothing there about Jesus snatching people right out of their cars. Wow. I'm so surprised it isn't there. No, really. Just shocked.

But they sure do sing a lot of songs, and new songs.


I hope Danny Elfman does the music.

[Ducky]

Funny. I see nothing there about Jesus snatching people right out of their cars. Wow. I'm so surprised it isn't there. No, really. Just shocked.

But they sure do sing a lot of songs, and new songs.


I hope Danny Elfman does the music.


DING! Slingblade gets another round of coolness points.


(not just for the right answer, but for the Elfman ref. Proves she has taste!)

[kmortis]

The one I most recently heard is David Jeremiah...Pastor of a church in San Diego. I also think many of the pastors from Calvery Chapel too... I'll have to go back and research that a bit more. Remember I do not claim to be an expert.. or a theologian...just a good student.
It does take time to study the word so don't give me such a hard time if I do not happen to have everything you are asking for every single time.
So, let me ask you, what's your point? So what if David wasshisname said that the 24 elders represented the hours in the day? So frelling what? What does it mean?

Look, I can read as much as you have said about this passage in my footnotes. No more advice, what's your frelling point? Do you even have a point? So far you have named 4 consequitive chapters from Revelation. Would you like to discuss them, or just keep throwing more chapters on the rubbish heap?

[kmortis]

Funny. I see nothing there about Jesus snatching people right out of their cars. Wow. I'm so surprised it isn't there. No, really. Just shocked.

But they sure do sing a lot of songs, and new songs.


I hope Danny Elfman does the music.
Actually, Daniel Amos did a good album called "Shotgun Angel". Quite entertaining.

[TobiasTheViking]

So, let me ask you, what's your point? So what if David wasshisname said that the 24 elders represented the hours in the day? So frelling what? What does it mean?

Look, I can read as much as you have said about this passage in my footnotes. No more advice, what's your frelling point? Do you even have a point? So far you have named 4 consequitive chapters from Revelation. Would you like to discuss them, or just keep throwing more chapters on the rubbish heap?
Is it even worth it do go through all this trouble for this piece of drenn?

[slingblade]

Is it even worth it do go through all this trouble for this piece of drenn?

Oh, Sweet Satan, no, not really. I find it entertaining for a few minutes, and for a time I even like the smell of shoe-leather breath wafting from KK's posts.

Satan (and his evil high-fashion minion, Satin) knows I have better things to do.

Like wonder what God's Super-Villain name would be. I mean, "God" lacks punch, or menace.

I rilly rilly like Gunderscored though. Was that one yours, Tobias?
I keep picturing an Odinesque type of villain...Odin if he ate lots of bad, ergot-infested rye, say.

Wears a hat with seven horns, and each one has a mouth, and wears an irritating goat-hair-shirt that just keeps him PO'd, much like the Hulk.

And he stole Dr. Doom's mask. It's just that cool.

[advancedatheist]

A woman with a chronic gynecological problem and a Rogue-like ability to draw "power" from others apparently weakened Jesus temporarily just by touching his robe, according to Luke 8. I find this story exceedingly weird, but I haven't heard of any extended exegesis of it, nor do I know of any sermons based on it. So maybe we need to look at Marvel comics for the superheroes to fight Jesus.

I have to wonder if Magneto with a box of nails would make Jesus hesitate.

[Spidey13]

I hope Danny Elfman does the music.

He already has superhero movie experience doing the music for the Spider-Man movies. He should be a perfect fit.

[Spidey13]

Ooooh, a Tim Burton claymation rapture movie, with music by Elfman. That would rock!!

[slingblade]

Ooooh, a Tim Burton claymation rapture movie, with music by Elfman. That would rock!!

Johnny Depp as?

And yer right, it would soooo rock!

[kurious_kathy]

So, let me ask you, what's your point? So what if David wasshisname said that the 24 elders represented the hours in the day? So frelling what? What does it mean?

Look, I can read as much as you have said about this passage in my footnotes. No more advice, what's your frelling point? Do you even have a point? So far you have named 4 consequitive chapters from Revelation. Would you like to discuss them, or just keep throwing more chapters on the rubbish heap? I have lots of insights...but let's go back to Matthew 24 to get a real good description from Jesus about the last days.
To me it is so obvious....Matthew Chapter 24
Signs of Christ's Return
Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Perilous Times
"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. "Behold, I have told you in advance. "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Glorious Return
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Even a blind man could read the writing on the wall after this chapter.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Even a blind man could read the writing on the wall after this chapter.

This is amazing. I am seriously beginning to believe you have some sort of mental disease or defect. I thought you understood we don't like being preached at then, here you go again? What is the matter with you?

[Dogdoctor]

Kathy, perhaps you might do better if you give us some reason to believe that the bible was the word of god. Otherwise it is just so much drivel.

[Ducky]

I'm not quoting that monstrosity, plaigarism aside. (You need to cite your sources KK)

But this time your logical fallacy was:

Argument from authority, argument from incredulity

[LawnOven]

A woman with a chronic gynecological problem and a Rogue-like ability to draw "power" from others apparently weakened Jesus temporarily just by touching his robe, according to Luke 8. I find this story exceedingly weird, but I haven't heard of any extended exegesis of it, nor do I know of any sermons based on it. So maybe we need to look at Marvel comics for the superheroes to fight Jesus.

I have to wonder if Magneto with a box of nails would make Jesus hesitate.


Jesus seems pretty close to a mortal version of God, if a few romans could off him, magneto would waste him in a second.

But then Jesus would just be all passive aggresive about it; say that he died for the sins of all mutants and besides he knew he was going to die anyways.

Magneto would have to feel all bad then.

Jesus's only real super power is the power to make people feel guilty.

Then you can imagine Jesus floating up into the clouds, shaking his fist, saying "You may have won this round, but I'll be back!"

[kurious_kathy]

Kathy, perhaps you might do better if you give us some reason to believe that the bible was the word of god. Otherwise it is just so much drivel. Actually I don't think that's the way it works. First we are to read and agree with it. Faith comes by hearing. I myself realized I was missing a big part of my life by not reading it. And I would suggest if someone is open...start with the New Testament.
Unless of course you believe in the theory of evolution. Then you probably need to read from the beginning first. Genesis...In the beginning God create! This is what A scientists named Ken Hamm is saying in our culture needs to happen with many people. Have you ever seen his website? http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp

[Ducky]

Actually I don't think that's the way it works. First we are to read and agree with it. Faith comes by hearing. I myself realized I was missing a big part of my life by not reading it. And I would suggest if someone is open...start with the New Testament.
Unless of course you believe in the theory of evolution. Then you probably need to read from the beginning first. Genesis...In the beginning God create! This is what A scientists named Ken Hamm is saying in our culture needs to happen with many people. Have you ever seen his website? http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp

Your logical fallacies were:

Post hoc reasoning. Straw man (evolution and religion are not mutually exclusive) and argument from authority.

again...

Are you going to answer freakshow's direct question? Or mine (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387272#post1387272) in the other thread? How about avhienda's (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387454#post1387454) very simple and direct question?


Or UrsulaV's? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387411#post1387411)


Skip the prosletyzing and get with the answers.

Or get off the damn board.

[Beleth]

And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Many Srubs and Zuuls will know what it was like to be roasted in the depths of the sloor that day, I can tell you!





(Sorry... sorry. Had to be done.)

[kurious_kathy]

Jesus seems pretty close to a mortal version of God, if a few romans could off him, magneto would waste him in a second.

But then Jesus would just be all passive aggresive about it; say that he died for the sins of all mutants and besides he knew he was going to die anyways.

Magneto would have to feel all bad then.

Jesus's only real super power is the power to make people feel guilty.

Then you can imagine Jesus floating up into the clouds, shaking his fist, saying "You may have won this round, but I'll be back!" Now you sound like the ones that scoffed him while he was on the cross. If you are God why don't you take yourself down from there. That's missing the point completely. He came here for this very purpose. He became a holy sacrifice acceptable to God to pay the price for our sins. In Christ there is no condemnation...just forgiveness.
He could have changed his mind and never had been crucified but then he wouldn't have done what he came for. He came here to save the world.
The first coming was to save us and he has given us all time to accept and believe so we could be reconciled with God.
The second coming will be for judgement. All those who have rejected him will be the ones that stand before the judgement throne.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Actually I don't think that's the way it works. First we are to read and agree with it. Faith comes by hearing.


This is where the critical thinking bit comes in. I know you don't know what that is yet but you've been given some good links to books to start with.

"First we are to read and agree with it."

Why should we agree with it? Where is the evidence that any of it is factual?

Do you see? Before you even begin you are in trouble. You have decided to believe something based on no evidence whatsoever.


Unless of course you believe in the theory of evolution. Then you probably need to read from the beginning first. Genesis...In the beginning God create!


Uh oh, another critical thinking lapse.

There is a LOT of evidence for evolution. Lots and lots and lots of it from a lot of different fields of study.

Wherer is your evidence for creation? Where is your evidence for the accuracy of what is written in your book of mythology?


http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp

This website is so appallingly bad that I cannot believe any sane, intelligent person, even a fanatical religious zealot like yourself, can stand to read it.

[Ducky]

Now you sound like the ones that scoffed him while he was on the cross. If you are God why don't you take yourself down from there. That's missing the point completely. He came here for this very purpose. He became a holy sacrifice acceptable to God to pay the price for our sins. In Christ there is no condemnation...just forgiveness.
He could have changed his mind and never had been crucified but then he wouldn't have done what he came for. He came here to save the world.
The first coming was to save us and he has given us all time to accept and believe so we could be reconciled with God.
The second coming will be for judgement. All those who have rejected him will be the ones that stand before the judgement throne.


Your logical fallacies were:

Argument from authroity, argument from increduility, no supporting evidence, non-sequiter and post hoc reasoning.

again...

Are you going to answer freakshow's (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387528#post1387528) direct question? Or mine (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387272#post1387272) in the other thread? How about avhienda's (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387454#post1387454) very simple and direct question?


Or UrsulaV's? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387411#post1387411)


Skip the prosletyzing and get with the answers.

Or get off the damn board.

[kurious_kathy]

Your logical fallacies were:

Post hoc reasoning. Straw man (evolution and religion are not mutually exclusive) and argument from authority.

again...

Are you going to answer freakshow's direct question? Or mine (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387272#post1387272) in the other thread? How about avhienda's (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387454#post1387454) very simple and direct question?


Or UrsulaV's? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387411#post1387411)


Skip the prosletyzing and get with the answers.

Or get off the damn board.Are you trying to give me orders? This appears to be more of a power struggle between you and I than anything else FS. I will answer when I'm ready. I am a busy woman and can't think about more than one thing at a time. My issue with the way you direct questions is this...you are trying to manipulate the discussion as to where you want it to go. I don't play that game. I am not a control freak...are you?

[Ducky]

Are you trying to give me orders? This appears to be more of a power struggle between you and I than anything else FS. I will answer when I'm ready. I am a busy woman and can't think about more than one thing at a time. My issue with the way you direct questions is this...you are trying to manipulate the discussion as to where you want it to go. I don't play that game. I am not a control freak...are you?

Your logical fallacies were:

Ad hominem attack. Strawman.

No, but I question why you would avoid answering direct questions all day. they are simple yes or no. You appear intellectually dishonest to post prosletyzing in other threads for hours while ignoring these simple yes or no questions.

As for controlling, no I am not, but I am going to hold you accountable for every question left unanswered. This is called debate.

so again:


Are you going to answer freakshow's (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387528#post1387528) direct question? Or mine (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387272#post1387272) in the other thread? How about avhienda's (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387454#post1387454) very simple and direct question?


Or UrsulaV's? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1387411#post1387411)


Skip the prosletyzing and get with the answers.

Or get off the damn board.


You're in the big leagues honey. learn to swim or drown.

[Dogdoctor]

Actually I don't think that's the way it works. First we are to read and agree with it. Faith comes by hearing. I myself realized I was missing a big part of my life by not reading it. And I would suggest if someone is open...start with the New Testament.
Unless of course you believe in the theory of evolution. Then you probably need to read from the beginning first. Genesis...In the beginning God create! This is what A scientists named Ken Hamm is saying in our culture needs to happen with many people. Have you ever seen his website? http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp
Ok so then why do you think that by hearing we will have faith?
Edited to add: before you answer that let me tell you that prior to reading the Bible twice I had a lot more faith than after reading it.

[kurious_kathy]

[I]
Why should we agree with it? Where is the evidence that any of it is factual?

Do you see? Before you even begin you are in trouble. You have decided to believe something based on no evidence whatsoever.


The evidence is when a persons life is changed spiritually, emotionally, and mentally. Evidence of things not seen is a hard thing to find if you aren't looking for it. But there are many like me who know once they come to faith in Christ, their spiritual eyes were opened. Don't ask me how it happens, it just does. If you really want evidence I pray that maybe you know some people like me that consider themselves true Christians.
God only knows there are too many bad examples of it out there, but there are some that really do live their faith. We are an unusual people if you'll take notice. We set our sights on things above which must drive intellectuals nuts much of the time. But I know many intellectuals that have faith and they believe in the spiritual things of God too.
I just have my own theory that it is harder for an intellect to come to faith!

[Ducky]

The evidence is when a persons life is changed spiritually. Evidence of thing not seen is a hard thing to find if you aren't looking for it. But there are many like me who know once they come to faith in Christ, their spiritual eyes were opened. Don't ask me how it happens, it just does. If you really want evidence I pray that maybe you know some people like me that concsider themselves true Christians. God only knows there are too many bad examples of it out there, but there are some that really do live their faith. We are an unusual people if you'll take notice. We set are things on things above which must drive intellectuals nuts much of the time. But I know many intellectuals that have faith and they believe in the spiritual things of God too.
I just have my own theory that it is harder for an intellect to come to faith!



blah blah blah.

More prosletyzing and avoiding answering direct questions.

I thought you posted that you didn't come here to preach? Logically then, you can answer direct questions.

[Beleth]

you are trying to manipulate the discussion as to where you want it to go. I don't play that game. Yes you do. Everyone does. You were doing it when you posted this.

[Cosmo]

...

We are an unusual people if you'll take notice. We set our sights on things above which must drive intellectuals nuts much of the time.

...

Your fallacy here: christian persecution complex!

*high-five to fowlsound*

[Jas]

I just have my own theory that it is harder for an intellect to come to faith!

So God created Heaven for stupid people?

ETA: Doesn't sound like a fun place to me. And apparently no one puts out either :mad: What the hell are you supposed to do if you can't have a conversation or screw anybody? Drink?

(clearly, Jesus's water transfiguration abilities would be put to good use)

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I just have my own theory that it is harder for an intellect to come to faith!


That's right. Knowledge = Bad (even if it is about the bible).

Shameful ignorance = Good

LLH

[Wheezebucket]

I think what Kathy is trying to say is that Superman, given his weakness to Magic, would have to stay on the sidelines keeping Jesus at bay while Captain Marvel took on God himself.

I imagine Batman would be involved in some capacity as well. And maybe Wonder Woman (but then that opens up a whole new bag of deity worms).

[Ducky]

I think what Kathy is trying to say is that Superman, given his weakness to Magic, would have to stay on the sidelines keeping Jesus at bay while Captain Marvel took on God himself.

I imagine Batman would be involved in some capacity as well. And maybe Wonder Woman (but then that opens up a whole new bag of deity worms).



Go new guy!

[Ducky]

Your fallacy here: christian persecution complex!

*high-five to fowlsound*



To comment further...

kathy you came here and started this. you cannot claim persecution when you willingly put yourself in this position.

Well done Cosmo.

[Taffer]

I think what Kathy is trying to say is that Superman, given his weakness to Magic, would have to stay on the sidelines keeping Jesus at bay while Captain Marvel took on God himself.

I imagine Batman would be involved in some capacity as well. And maybe Wonder Woman (but then that opens up a whole new bag of deity worms).

What about the Green Lantern?

[Dr Adequate]

This is what A scientists named Ken Hamm is saying in our culture needs to happen with many people. Ken Ham has a BA in applied science. That doesn't make him "a scientist" any more than having a B Div makes a man a bishop. "Scientist" is a job, not a qualification. Ken Ham has contributed nothing to science.

[Dr Adequate]

Man, I think we really should worship Superman instead. Even as it was fortold in the sacred texts.

http://www.superdickery.com/images/dick/97_4_0000311.jpg

[LostAngeles]

I think what Kathy is trying to say is that Superman, given his weakness to Magic, would have to stay on the sidelines keeping Jesus at bay while Captain Marvel took on God himself.

I imagine Batman would be involved in some capacity as well. And maybe Wonder Woman (but then that opens up a whole new bag of deity worms).

Batman beats God. You have to understand that Batman can beat anyone. He has that capacity. If you don't believe me, current continuity backs me up. Read "The Tower of Babel" JLA storyline in which the JLA loses to Batman.

And Kathy, what's the matter with actual questions? They're a chance for you to persuade people to Christ.

[kurious_kathy]

Ken Ham has a BA in applied science. That doesn't make him "a scientist" any more than having a B Div makes a man a bishop. "Scientist" is a job, not a qualification. Ken Ham has contributed nothing to science.Well I disagree with that point of view. Who says what kind of degree someone has makes him smarter than the other guy. Anyways he has a whole group of scientists he's working with in his ministry that are specialists in their field. Many of them turned around from the theory of evolution. They were already in there fields...then when they came to faith they took it a different dirrection.

I heard one of them say it took them 3 years to have God help them adjust...nevertheless now that they have more of the why"s which comes from God...well the how's just work so much better. There are lots of gaps in science that get filled up with the knowlege of God. This is of course what I see making a big difference out there in lots of peoples lives!

[Taffer]

Well I disagree with that point of view. Who says what kind of degree someone has makes him smarter than the other guy. Anyways he has a whole group of scientists he's working with in his ministry that are specialists in their field. Many of them turned around from the theory of evolution. They were already in there fields...then when they came to faith they took it a different dirrection.

I heard one of them say it took them 3 years to have God help them adjust...nevertheless now that they have more of the why"s which comes from God...well the how's just work so much better. There are lots of gaps in science that get filled up with the knowlege of God. This is of course what I see making a big difference out there in lots of peoples lives!

So? Some scientists believe in God? Wow, what a revelation.

I am studying Genetics in University. I am not a scientist, although I hope to one day fill that description. I do not believe in God, or indeed in any god. The more I study Genetics, the processes within a cell, and the interactions between molecule, cell and organism, the more I am convinced of a lack of Divine Intervention in the process. Now does this make it right? Of course not. But my argument holds just as much credence as your argument, Kathy.

[Dr Adequate]

Well I disagree with that point of view. Who says what kind of degree someone has makes him smarter than the other guy. No-one. Certainly not me. I said that his degree is irrelevant. The point is that "scientist" is a job and not a qualification.

Anyways he has a whole group of scientists he's working with in his ministry that are specialists in their field. They were already in there fields...then when they came to faith they took it a different dirrection. So they all changed their opinions on science because they got religion, not through any scientific discovery any of them made. How very interesting.

There are lots of gaps in science that get filled up with the knowlege of God.
Yes. For example, the "knowledge of God" filled the gap of explaining the rainbow, until we discovered the theory of optics, and it filled the gap of why people got ill until we discovered the germ theory of disease, and it filled the gap of what caused lightning until we understood electricity, and it filled the gap of the appearance of design in nature until we knew about evolution.

This is of course what I see making a big difference out there in lots of peoples lives! Really? Is this one of the things you "see" 'cos you're so "spiritual", or is it a real not-made-up thing?

Would you name one practical use or application for "creation science"?

[Skeptic Warrior]

Well I disagree with that point of view. Who says what kind of degree someone has makes him smarter than the other guy. Anyways he has a whole group of scientists he's working with in his ministry that are specialists in their field. Many of them turned around from the theory of evolution. They were already in there fields...then when they came to faith they took it a different dirrection.

I heard one of them say it took them 3 years to have God help them adjust...nevertheless now that they have more of the why"s which comes from God...well the how's just work so much better. There are lots of gaps in science that get filled up with the knowlege of God. This is of course what I see making a big difference out there in lots of peoples lives!



And the names of these "scientists" are....real names would help alot.

To the OP, I think Superman would beat God if he got a chariot made of iron or if he hide in a bush, like Adam and Eve, and then sucker punched God from behind. But then again, God could make a robe of pure kryptonite threads...or..or...Screw it! I like the Hulk too! :D

[Wheezebucket]

I think this post just highlights what's wrong with comic books today. The heroes aren't broken up into the proper categories. Who can fight God one-on-one, and who can't. Here's my initial idea as far as who would be a God Fighter.

God Fighters - Heroes with the proper powers (listed) for battling God.
-----
Superman (x-ray vision)
Batman (baterangs laced with reason)
Green Lantern (imagination)
Wolverine (evolution)
Spider-Man (science)
The Question (evidence)

and so forth...

[Gavan]

What about Thor?????

I reckon he and that hammer could have a good crack at it.

Or is God of Thunder one of your lesser deities?

[Dr Adequate]

And the names of these "scientists" are....real names would help alot. Some names and links here:

Are there any creationist scientists? (http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Evolution_is_losing_support_among_scientists#Are_t here_any_creationist_scientists.3F)

The magazine Newsweek reported in 1987: "By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable academic credentials (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) who ascribed to Biblically literal creationism." That would be a little over 0.1%...

We see that such makeshift substitutes as these scientists can find for scientific justification for creationism are not the result of deep research in their fields, or of an accurate knowledge of evolutionary biology, but of reading tatty creationist pamphlets and memorizing a few attractive phrases ... the tiny minority of scientists who are creationist refuse to enter the arena of scientific discourse and do battle for their views.

[LW]

The word is mentioned one time in the Babble, and it's not in Revelation.

Your Bible search technique is weak and no match for Grand Master Google-Fu. Or even Grand Master Grep-Over-The-Complete-Bible-Text-Fu.

[kmortis]

Now you sound like the ones that scoffed him while he was on the cross. If you are God why don't you take yourself down from there. That's missing the point completely. He came here for this very purpose. He became a holy sacrifice acceptable to God to pay the price for our sins. In Christ there is no condemnation...just forgiveness.
He could have changed his mind and never had been crucified but then he wouldn't have done what he came for. He came here to save the world.
The first coming was to save us and he has given us all time to accept and believe so we could be reconciled with God.
The second coming will be for judgement. All those who have rejected him will be the ones that stand before the judgement throne.
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/pfss_comic38.jpg
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/pfss_comic40.jpg
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/pfss_comic42.jpg
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/pfss_comic43.jpg

Argument by cartoon.

[kmortis]

The evidence is when a persons life is changed spiritually, emotionally, and mentally. Evidence of things not seen is a hard thing to find if you aren't looking for it. But there are many like me who know once they come to faith in Christ, their spiritual eyes were opened. Don't ask me how it happens, it just does. If you really want evidence I pray that maybe you know some people like me that consider themselves true Christians.
God only knows there are too many bad examples of it out there, but there are some that really do live their faith. We are an unusual people if you'll take notice. We set our sights on things above which must drive intellectuals nuts much of the time. But I know many intellectuals that have faith and they believe in the spiritual things of God too.
I just have my own theory that it is harder for an intellect to come to faith!
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/pfss_comic53.jpg

[slingblade]

Your Bible search technique is weak and no match for Grand Master Google-Fu. Or even Grand Master Grep-Over-The-Complete-Bible-Text-Fu.

Oh no. Does that mean I have to convert? Please don't make me go back to the Big Black Hole of Religion!

(I did google it. I could find only the John reference. I'm so ashamed.)

Wait. I'll do something Kathy doesn't know how to do; that will redeem me!




...I was mistaken.


There; now can I stay in the world of sanity?

[Spidey13]

What about the Green Lantern?

I guess he would just have to hope that God is wearing his white robes that day, and not the yellow ones.

Anyway, anyone who has read Preacher, one of the best comics EVER, would know that God was killed in issue #66 by the Saint of Killers. One shot was all it took. Granted, this is a Vertigo title and didn't take place in the main DC universe, but it was still pretty darn cool.

(How's it going, Taffer? Haven't seen you around these parts in awhile.)

[kmortis]

I guess he would just have to hope that God is wearing his white robes that day, and not the yellow ones.

Anyway, anyone who has read Preacher, one of the best comics EVER, would know that God was killed in issue #66 by the Saint of Killers. One shot was all it took. Granted, this is a Vertigo title and didn't take place in the main DC universe, but it was still pretty darn cool.

(How's it going, Taffer? Haven't seen you around these parts in awhile.)
How would Lobo stack up? Ever since his Medusa-like ability was taken away, I think that he's not quite the match-up against God as he was before. But he would match-up in the sanity arena...

[Taffer]

I guess he would just have to hope that God is wearing his white robes that day, and not the yellow ones.

Anyway, anyone who has read Preacher, one of the best comics EVER, would know that God was killed in issue #66 by the Saint of Killers. One shot was all it took. Granted, this is a Vertigo title and didn't take place in the main DC universe, but it was still pretty darn cool.

(How's it going, Taffer? Haven't seen you around these parts in awhile.)

Hey Spidey! I was lost, but now I return! (I went away and now I'm back ;)). All is well.

Y'know? I think you're right. the Saint of Killers, even if we ignore the fact that he's already done it, could EASILY kill God. He's got the who unkillable thing going on, not to mention one-shot-kill power. Plus, he looks hellova cool. :cool:

(Just in case you missed it, Preacher is one of the best comics ever. :D)

[Skeptic Warrior]

Some names and links here:


Thank you Dr. Adequate. Didn't think I would get any answer from Mrs.Holier-Than-Thou. :)

[Ducky]

Thank you Dr. Adequate. Didn't think I would get any answer from Mrs.Holier-Than-Thou. :)


No you won't. Apparently when held to discussion and forced to answer questions, kathy will just argue that we're trying to control her through some bizzare power struggle.

Because she is here to preach and nothing else.

I commend you, kmortis. Argument by cartoon might get through to her.

[Beerina]

The real question and reality is the antichrist, not Superman.

[a great deal of Revelation prognostication deleted]


Yes, but you're avoiding the question. If the end result is the vast majority of humanity being cast into Hell, shouldn't we support the antichrist and work against Jesus and Yahweh to delay this as long as possible?

God is demonstrably the evil one in this situation. See the other thread re: Dawkins' (correct) assertion that God is the most evil fictional character ever created (resurrecting, then severely torturing the vast bulk of humans who have ever lived, for ever and ever.) This is evil, not good. This is a reason to spit upon Him, not to worship him, unless you are a coward. Indeed, I point out there that Yahweh only just barely avoids being the worst theoretically possible character in that he only vilely tortures the vast majority of humans for ever and ever, not every single one of them.

[Beerina]

Hey, dimbulb, it's the Book of Revelation. Singular. Not multiple revelations, just one. And it's all false.

Well, technically Revelation is true, since it was written after the fact to describe earlier history with the Romans and whatnot. :blush:

[Beerina]

Is God a Marvel or DC chararacter? This could make a difference in the outcome.


In Marvel, the most powerful object is either the Heart of the Universe, a device created by God, or the Beyonders, who created the Beyonder and the cosmic cubes, which can toy with a universe and everything in it. In any case, that implies God is a character in Marvel.

The Fantastic Four recently met God, who was in the form of a comic book writer who wrote all of Marvel's reality. Now whether that god had a god who wrote him is another story.

In DC, Mixelplik has left the comic universe to pop back up into the comic book writers' world, and that would seem to out-power the Spectre, who is, supposedly, God's vengeance avatar. This also suggests the existance of God in the DC universe, and, as in Marvel, implied only.

However, God is definitely an on-screen character in the South Park universe, as are Jesus and Santa (whom fought in the prototype cartoon over the meaning of Christmas. Search for "soxmas" on the Internet to view.) However, God didn't create the Earth. That was created by an intergalactic reality TV company.

[ranson]

Hmm . . . as I recall, Marvel's big cosmic beings (Eternity, etc.) discussed "The One Who is Above Us All". Of course, Marvel has, this last decade, made its best efforts to screw up continuity as badly as DC, so I dunno.

I personally think Conan or Hellboy would be best-suited to taking down the big Y. Conan's killed a few gods in his time, and Hellboy has every bit of mysticism in history to back him up, as well as an apocalypse-inducing right hand. Strong combo, I think.

[Beerina]

A woman with a chronic gynecological problem and a Rogue-like ability to draw "power" from others apparently weakened Jesus temporarily just by touching his robe, according to Luke 8. I find this story exceedingly weird, but I haven't heard of any extended exegesis of it, nor do I know of any sermons based on it. So maybe we need to look at Marvel comics for the superheroes to fight Jesus.

I have to wonder if Magneto with a box of nails would make Jesus hesitate.


Interesting. Here is that part from skepticsannotatedbible.com: 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
8:44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
[b]8:45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
8:46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
8:47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.



So apparently a woman who believed, and had a problem of blood issuing from her for 12 years, nonstop, and physicians couldn't help her at all, merely touched the edge of Jesus' robe and was healed.

I, too find this curious. Evidently Jesus doesn't (at least always) consciously control his healing powers. Furthermore, it seems like this temporarily drained him. It seems like his virtue is intimitely tied to his healing abilities, but this is just supposition. In any case, it seems like his healing mana needs to regenerate for awhile.

[Beerina]

I think this post just highlights what's wrong with comic books today. The heroes aren't broken up into the proper categories. Who can fight God one-on-one, and who can't. Here's my initial idea as far as who would be a God Fighter.

God Fighters - Heroes with the proper powers (listed) for battling God.
-----
Superman (x-ray vision)
Batman (baterangs laced with reason)
Green Lantern (imagination)
Wolverine (evolution)
Spider-Man (science)
The Question (evidence)

and so forth...

Actually, Green Lantern's ability is willpower, not imagination. The fact he uses the ring to make giant animals and jackhammers indicates a ferocious, child-like lack of imagination.

[Spidey13]

(Just in case you missed it, Preacher is one of the best comics ever. :D)

<-------Updated avatar in honor of Preacher, while still sticking to the Spidey theme. :)

[Elind]

If God existed, and if Superman existed, and the Rapture occured, would Superman fight against God for throwing people into Hell? Would he try to save them?


The question should be; if Superman existed and started transporting people to Hell, would God fight him?

[LordoftheLeftHand]

kurious_kathy:

I know a lot of posters want you to answer a lot of difficult ethical questions about god. I have a much simpler request. I said that the word “anti-christ” and “rapture” do not appear in the Revelation of St. John and you disagreed.

This is a good example of a positive and negative assertion.

I made a negative assertion. It would be difficult or impossible for me to prove that these words do not appear. We would literally have to look at every single word, one at a time to make sure it does not appear. Even then it could be claimed that maybe we made a mistake or got lazy and missed it. Furthermore even if I went through word by word and saw that it did not appear, there would be no easy way for me to prove this to someone else. They would also have to go through word by word.

On the other hand you made a positive assertion and it would be very easy to prove it to everyone. All you would need to do is post the chapter and verse number where either of these two words appear. Anyone who was interested to use this reference and quickly check it.

As I see it, you have 4 choices:


1 Prove me wrong; give us the chapter and verse. If you do this I will thank you for pointing out where I was mistaken and apologize for making a false assertion.


2 Admit that you can not find them. If you do this I will not belittle you for it, but I will ask that you stop using those 2 words in connection with the Revelations of St. John.


3 Continue to insist that they do appear but fail to show where. This would be a less than ideal solution, as it might appear that you are an irrational person.


4 Ignore me completely. Hey this might work, but it’s hardly adult behavior.


LLH
*edited for formatting

[LordoftheLeftHand]

So apparently a woman who believed, and had a problem of blood issuing from her for 12 years, nonstop, and physicians couldn't help her at all, merely touched the edge of Jesus' robe and was healed.

I, too find this curious. Evidently Jesus doesn't (at least always) consciously control his healing powers. Furthermore, it seems like this temporarily drained him. It seems like his virtue is intimitely tied to his healing abilities, but this is just supposition. In any case, it seems like his healing mana needs to regenerate for awhile.

Oh that is nothing. The bones of Elisha can raise the dead!
So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet

LLH

[kurious_kathy]

Yes, but you're avoiding the question. If the end result is the vast majority of humanity being cast into Hell, shouldn't we support the antichrist and work against Jesus and Yahweh to delay this as long as possible?

God is demonstrably the evil one in this situation. See the other thread re: Dawkins' (correct) assertion that God is the most evil fictional character ever created (resurrecting, then severely torturing the vast bulk of humans who have ever lived, for ever and ever.) This is evil, not good. This is a reason to spit upon Him, not to worship him, unless you are a coward. Indeed, I point out there that Yahweh only just barely avoids being the worst theoretically possible character in that he only vilely tortures the vast majority of humans for ever and ever, not every single one of them. Well this is a good example of pinpointing some of the obvious in why God may be testing people and the question of why he gave peole free will? Check out this article on rbc...it seems to open up a bit of an insight if you want to inquire of it... http://www.rbc.org/questions/answer.php?catagory=bible&folder=hell&topic=Hell&file=whyhell.xml

[Ducky]

Well this is a good example of pinpointing some of the obvious in why God may be testing people and the question of why he gave peole free will? Check out this article on rbc...it seems to open up a bit of an insight if you want to inquire of it... http://www.rbc.org/questions/answer.php?catagory=bible&folder=hell&topic=Hell&file=whyhell.xml


your logical fallacy this time was:

Post hoc reasoning, and appeal to authority.

Though at least you answered a direct question. that's a start.

[kurious_kathy]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]On the other hand you made a positive assertion and it would be very easy to prove it to everyone. All you would need to do is post the chapter and verse number where either of these two words appear. Anyone who was interested to use this reference and quickly check it.

As I see it, you have 4 choices:


[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]I don't recall using the words it would be easy to prove it to everyone...but that's ok. Let me back up and state this...I think when studying the book of Revelations it is a difficult one to interpret because there is so much symbolism in it. There are many theologians that I believe are doing a good job of interpretting it if anyone is really open to endevour in interpretting this prophetic book.

My personal favorite of the theologians teaching on it thus far has been David Jeremiah's study called, "Escape the Coming Night." if you would like to inquire of this one here is a link ..... http://www.bookschristian.com/sys/product.php?PRODUCT=60535
personally I have this study on Cd but I hear he is currently teaching it via radio. I guess I'll buy the book too so I can use it as a tool to reference.
Anyway I think he is one of the better teachers on the Christian faith that is alive and in ministry today.

Billy Grahams book...approaching hoofbeats addresses the interpretation of the book of Revelations as well. If someone is truely interested in these topics they need to investigate these resourses for themselves.

That's what I am doing....I am a student...not a teacher.

[Ryokan]

So to find out if the rapture and the anti-christ really is in Revelations, we have to buy a book?

Why can't you just show us the chapter and verse where they are mentioned?

[kmortis]

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/pfss_comic103.jpg

[DigitalHoser]

Ouch.

[Wheezebucket]

Actually, Green Lantern's ability is willpower, not imagination. The fact he uses the ring to make giant animals and jackhammers indicates a ferocious, child-like lack of imagination.

Wait just a second! The source of the ring's power is willpower yes, but the whole reason Kyle Rayner was ever made a Green Lantern was because of his imagination (which he uses to create his little doodads). It's his running theme. Just as John is a little more technical with the ring given his backround in architecture and so forth. I'll ammend the list to include seperate entries for Rayner/Ion (imagination) and Hal Jordan (willpower).

Oh and Mxl definitely doesn't outpower Spectre, as the recent Crisis pointed out when Mxl lost his powers due to the Spectre running around and slaughtering everything magical (since he got tricked into thinking it was all evil). And with Nabu dead and the 10th age of magic upon the DC world he may never be able to come back!

I just nerd overloaded myself. Powering down.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I don't recall using the words it would be easy to prove it to everyone

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that your assertion (that those words appear in the book) should be easy to prove. Just give us chapter and verse.

If I told you that Paul said Jesus was a transvestite, you would likely not believe me and demand that I give you the book, chapter and verse where Paul said this. It would difficult or impossible for you to prove that Paul did not say these things. The burden of proof would lie on my shoulders to show where this appears in the bible. (BTW I'm not claiming that Paul said this, I'm just using it as an outrageous example).

I am asking you to show us where the words "anti-christ" or "rapture" appear in the Revelation of St. John.

LLH

[Genesius]

Hmm . . . as I recall, Marvel's big cosmic beings (Eternity, etc.) discussed "The One Who is Above Us All". Of course, Marvel has, this last decade, made its best efforts to screw up continuity as badly as DC, so I dunno.

This is going back a ways, but during the Phoenix saga, Uatu the Watcher described the power of the Phoenix as "second only to that of the Creator".

God also made a personal appearance in the DC Universe. In Supergirl, there was a kid named Wally who claimed to be God. He provided some good proof by taking his baseball bat & knocking Supergirl about a mile. Later he discussed the nature of God with Supergirl's mother, saying that while God knew everything there was, he didn't know everything. That's humanity's job, to help God learn about His creation. His explanation of Adam & Eve is, well any parents now know if you tell kids not to do something they'll do it as soon as your back is turned, but then there hadn't been humans before so he thought "I'm God, if I tell them to not to do something they won't do it."

So I guess both universes have a claim. . .

[LawnOven]

Now you sound like the ones that scoffed him while he was on the cross. If you are God why don't you take yourself down from there. That's missing the point completely. He came here for this very purpose. He became a holy sacrifice acceptable to God to pay the price for our sins. In Christ there is no condemnation...just forgiveness.
He could have changed his mind and never had been crucified but then he wouldn't have done what he came for. He came here to save the world.
The first coming was to save us and he has given us all time to accept and believe so we could be reconciled with God.
The second coming will be for judgement. All those who have rejected him will be the ones that stand before the judgement throne.

Man... spell it out for me J...O...K...E! Please do not forget the title of this thread. It's not always about you.

Apperently I was wrong, in addition to Jesus's mighty super power to "passive aggressively make people feel bad"; he is further able to pass that power on to others.

KK, another, mighty, passive aggressive soldier in the name of the lord!

[Beerina]

What about Thor?????

I reckon he and that hammer could have a good crack at it.

Or is God of Thunder one of your lesser deities?

It depends on which Thor. Thor from Marvel comics, although powerful in his own universe, is very wimpy compared to most mythical gods, even the lesser ones not at the head of the pantheon. He's even wimpy compared to his own myth.

[Beerina]

Wait just a second! The source of the ring's power is willpower yes, but the whole reason Kyle Rayner was ever made a Green Lantern was because of his imagination (which he uses to create his little doodads). It's his running theme. Just as John is a little more technical with the ring given his backround in architecture and so forth. I'll ammend the list to include seperate entries for Rayner/Ion (imagination) and Hal Jordan (willpower).

Oh and Mxl definitely doesn't outpower Spectre, as the recent Crisis pointed out when Mxl lost his powers due to the Spectre running around and slaughtering everything magical (since he got tricked into thinking it was all evil). And with Nabu dead and the 10th age of magic upon the DC world he may never be able to come back!

I just nerd overloaded myself. Powering down.


Mixelplik once fought Bat-Mite (another 5th dimensional imp) and in their battle they accidentally destroyed many universes. Sigh. I hate it when comic writers don't even know their own worlds they write in.

Captain Marvel beat up the Spectre. A few issues later, the Spectre wins because they have to move the story along. :rolleyes:

[Beerina]

Originally posted by kurious_kathyThe second coming will be for judgement. All those who have rejected him will be the ones that stand before the judgement throne.

I would like an answer to this question: I am a decent guy. I don't steal. I raise kids. I refuse to believe. According to this, I should be placed into Hell. Isn't that an evil thing to do? Why do you worship a creature who does things like this? Is it cowardice; do you want merely to avoid that fate?

[brodski]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy

I would like an answer to this question: I am a decent guy. I don't steal. I raise kids. I refuse to believe. According to this, I should be placed into Hell. Isn't that an evil thing to do? Why do you worship a creature who does things like this? Is it cowardice; do you want merely to avoid that fate?
There is a fantastic BBC radio 4 sitcom based arround this entrie premis its called "Old Harrys game" and is often rebroadcast from the BBC7 website.hey, if KK can use her fiction to try and make an argument, why cant I atlest quote some quality fiction in its place? ;)

[RandFan]

If God existed, and if Superman existed, and the Rapture occured, would Superman fight against God for throwing people into Hell? Would he try to save them?

He would have no difficulty busting through the crust of the Earth to get down there. If God threw Superman into Hell for being a heathen, Superman could escape pretty well, to say nothing about beating up the devils and demons down there.

But seriously, as a philosophical point, good people would stand up against God for throwing, say, an Islamic child into Hell. (Or, for that matter, a Christian child, should Islam be correct.)

Joe Doe lived a decent, caring life. He just didn't believe in God. God decides to give Joe an eternal life of pain and misery. Wouldn't Superman, or any caring, good individual, try to save Joe? Isn't believing in God so you don't get punished a practical, but cowardly, philosophy? And don't say you want to "save Joe" preemptively before he dies/the Rapture occurs, because God also wants you to be good, which is good. Joe is good, but is going to Hell anyway.Sorry, I missed this. Gold, absolute gold. :)

I gotta go with Superman saving Joe. It is a reasonable response to an unreasonable requirement.

[kurious_kathy]

And the names of these "scientists" are....real names would help alot.
OK here's a whole list of creation scientists.....
Are there scientists alive today who accept the biblical account of creation?
Note: Individuals on this list must possess a doctorate in a science-related field.

Dr Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
Dr E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
Dr James Allan, Geneticist
Dr Steve Austin, Geologist
Dr S.E. Aw, Biochemist
Dr Thomas Barnes, Physicist
Dr Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
Dr Don Batten, Plant physiologist, tropical fruit expert
Dr John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
Dr Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
Dr Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
Dr Raymond G. Bohlin, Biologist
Dr Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
Dr David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
Dr David Catchpoole, Plant Physiologist (read his testimony)
Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
Dr Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Dr Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
Dr Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
Dr John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
Dr Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
Dr Bob Compton, DVM
Dr Ken Cumming, Biologist
Dr Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
Dr William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
Dr Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
Dr Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
Dr Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
Dr Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
Dr Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
Dr Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
Dr Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
Dr David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
Dr Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
Dr Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr Ted Driggers, Operations research
Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
Dr André Eggen, Geneticist
Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
Dr Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
Dr Paul Giem, Medical Research
Dr Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
Dr Duane Gish, Biochemist
Dr Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
Dr D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
Dr Dianne Grocott, Psychiatrist
Dr Stephen Grocott, Industrial Chemist
Dr Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
Dr Barry Harker, Philosopher
Dr Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
Dr John Hartnett, Physicist and Cosmologist
Dr Mark Harwood, Satellite Communications
Dr George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
Dr Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
Dr Harold R. Henry, Engineer
Dr Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
Dr Joseph Henson, Entomologist
Dr Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
Dr Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
Dr Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
Dr Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
Dr Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
Dr George F. Howe, Botany
Dr Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
Dr Russell Humphreys, Physicist
Dr James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
George T. Javor, Biochemistry
Dr Pierre Jerlström, Creationist Molecular Biologist
Dr Arthur Jones, Biology
Dr Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
Dr Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
Dr Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
Dr Dean Kenyon, Biologist
Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
Dr John W. Klotz, Biologist
Dr Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
Dr Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
Dr John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
Dr John Leslie, Biochemist
Prof. Lane P. Lester, Biologist, Genetics
Dr Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
Dr Alan Love, Chemist
Dr Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
Dr John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
Dr George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
Dr Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
Dr John McEwan, Chemist
Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
Dr David Menton, Anatomist
Dr Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr John Meyer, Physiologist
Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
Dr John N. Moore, Science Educator
Dr John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
Dr Henry M. Morris, Hydrologist
Dr John D. Morris, Geologist
Dr Len Morris, Physiologist
Dr Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
Dr Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
Dr David Oderberg, Philosopher
Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
Dr John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
Dr Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
Dr Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
Dr David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
Prof. Richard Porter
Dr Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
Dr John Rankin, Cosmologist
Dr A.S. Reece, M.D.
Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
Dr Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
Dr David Rosevear, Chemist
Dr Ariel A. Roth, Biology
Dr Jonathan D. Sarfati, Physical chemist / spectroscopist
Dr Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
Dr Ian Scott, Educator
Dr Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
Dr Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
Dr Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
Dr Emil Silvestru, Geologist/karstologist
Dr Roger Simpson, Engineer
Dr Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
Dr E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist
Dr Andrew Snelling, Geologist
Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
Dr Timothy G. Standish, Biology
Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
Dr Esther Su, Biochemistry
Dr Charles Taylor, Linguistics
Dr Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
Dr Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
Dr Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
Dr Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
Dr Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
Dr Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
Dr Joachim Vetter, Biologist
Dr Tas Walker, Mechanical Engineer and Geologist
Dr Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
Dr Keith Wanser, Physicist
Dr Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
Dr A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
Dr John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
Dr Carl Wieland, Medical doctor
Dr Lara Wieland, Medical doctor
Dr Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
Dr Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
Dr Bryant Wood, Creationist Archaeologist
Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
Dr Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
Dr Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
Dr Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
Dr Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
Dr Henry Zuill, Biology

This ought to be a good start for anyone that is truely inquiring?

[Ducky]

Kathy, once again I ask you to cite your source for this list.


Do you even understand the copyright troubles you could put this forum in?

[Marquis de Carabas]

This ought to be a good start for anyone that is truely inquiring?
Good show. Now, here (http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3697_the_list_2_16_2003.asp)'s a longer list of scientists who support evolution. And these are only the ones named Steve. (or Stephanie or such)

ETA: Oh, yeah, and no copyright worries for me. I follow the rules, like a good Christian.

[Ryokan]

How can psychologists be creation scientists? :rolleyes:

[AnotherSillyAlias]

How can psychologists be creation scientists? :rolleyes:

Well, since "creation scientist" is an oxymoron to start with, your average goat herder can probably be a creation scientist!

[LordoftheLeftHand]

http://www.sandpoint.net/tknapp/SCIETISTS.htm

Might have been one of KK's sources...

ETA: or maybe here http://www.thedarwinpapers.com/oldsite/Appendix2.html

[Ducky]

http://www.sandpoint.net/tknapp/SCIETISTS.htm

Might have been one of KK's sources...

ETA: or maybe here http://www.thedarwinpapers.com/oldsite/Appendix2.html



I like that sandpoint named that page SCIETISTS.htm

[Ryokan]

Well, since "creation scientist" is an oxymoron to start with, your average goat herder can probably be a creation scientist!

It's pretty funny that there are dentists there (in KK's list) as well :p

[LordoftheLeftHand]

http://www.sandpoint.net/tknapp/SCIETISTS.htm

Might have been one of KK's sources...

ETA: or maybe here http://www.thedarwinpapers.com/oldsite/Appendix2.html

Actually after further searching this is the most likely source:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/bios/default.asp

LLH

[Marquis de Carabas]

It's pretty funny that there are dentists there (in KK's list) as well :p
What good is only one jaw? Obviously both a lower and upper jaw are necessary to achieve a proper chewing (or "masticating" as EVILutionists have it) motion. It is clear that the two-jaw arrangement is irreducibly complex, and must have been created in its current state by God. That atheists fail to accept this simple fact is just another example of their hatred of God, the Bible, and cute furry kittens.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Wow KK it appears that this source is a serious supporter of “new Earth” thinking.

Here are some other things your source has to say (assuming that this was your source)…

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1866.asp
Believing in a relatively ‘young Earth’ (i.e., only a few thousands of years old, which we accept) is a consequence of accepting the authority of the Word of God as an infallible revelation from our omniscient Creator.

However, the reason they don’t believe God created in six literal days is because they are convinced from so-called ‘science’ that the world is billions of years old.

Therefore, one cannot allow a fossil record of millions of years of death, bloodshed, disease and suffering before sin (which is why the fossil record makes much more sense as the graveyard of the flood of Noah’s day)… Also, the word for ‘day’ in the context of Genesis can only mean an ordinary day for each of the six days of Creation

And finally, the piece la resistance… Fundie Relativity!!!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/405.asp


LLH

[Beerina]

Well, the fundy relativity page at least has the honesty to admit that, if God could have created light (and particle castoffs from supernovae) literally showing explosions and events that never actually happened, "already on the way", then there's no reason he couldn't have also created dinosaur bones in the ground to show animals that never actually lived, then died, and were covered with mud and fossilized.

Similarly, did the trees in the Garden of Eden have rings? And, of course, the old theological conundrum: did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?

If yes, then God is a deceiver, and tree rings, dinosaur bones, and supernovae explosions "already on the way" cannot be ruled out. But if no, then current Man is not "in god's image", since the first man (and woman) were, but did not have belly buttons. Of course, there are an infinity of detail in the human body besides belly buttons that indicate, like rings in a tree, growth from the smallest of stages to birth size, and from birth size to adult. All must, similarly, be faked. And that's just natural, to say nothing of a cluster of freckles that came from a sunburn as a child in a childhood that never actually happened.

[rharbers]

Similarly, did the trees in the Garden of Eden have rings? And, of course, the old theological conundrum: did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?


What about the possibility that the original Adam was both male and female, and that the rib is figurative? I asked that of a fundy once and you would not believe the reaction.

[kurious_kathy]

[SIZE=3]

[FONT=Verdana]And finally, the piece la resistance… Fundie Relativity!!!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/405.asp


LLH Hi LLH....These guys are really good at what they do, and most of them were turned around from believing in the theory of evolution...maybe you could just try to be open to what they found instead of being so closed minded about it.

Anyways ....ever heard of Bob Dylan? Do you know the song he wrote called, "Gotta Serve Somebody" he's got something to share too if you cared enough to listen.

[Ducky]

Hi LLH....These guys are really good at what they do, and most of them were turned around from believing in the theory of evolution...maybe you could just try to be open to what they found instead of being so closed minded about it.

Anyways ....ever heard of Bob Dylan? Do you know the song he wrote called, "Gotta Serve Somebody" he's got something to share too if you cared enough to listen.



You're not going to try to tell me Bob Dylan is a christian are you?

[Genesius]

You're not going to try to tell me Bob Dylan is a christian are you?

He was at one point. . . for about a minute and a half. It didn't stick.

[Cleon]

Hi LLH....These guys are really good at what they do, and most of them were turned around from believing in the theory of evolution...maybe you could just try to be open to what they found instead of being so closed minded about it.


Horse hockey.


Anyways ....ever heard of Bob Dylan? Do you know the song he wrote called, "Gotta Serve Somebody" he's got something to share too if you cared enough to listen.

I know Bob Dylan. Bob Dylan is a big hero of mine. And you, kathy, are no Bob Dylan.

[rharbers]

He was at one point. . . for about a minute and a half. It didn't stick.

He hung out with the Guthrie crowd and they were mostly drunks and drug users, so the songs really mean nothing.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Anyways ....ever heard of Bob Dylan? Do you know the song he wrote called, "Gotta Serve Somebody" he's got something to share too if you cared enough to listen.
Dylan also wrote a song called "Rainy Day Women #12 & 35" which has something to share with you if you care enough to listen.

[Spidey13]

Zimmerman is a perfectly good Christian name.

[Genesius]

He hung out with the Guthrie crowd and they were mostly drunks and drug users, so the songs really mean nothing.

I'm not an expert on Dylan's career, but from what I can find out he put out 3 albums of Christian music from 1979-81. Then, according to http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/bob-dylan.html :

Dylan then repudiated any claim to the Christian faith and went back to his standard rock music. Dylan never attended church regularly and soon quite altogether. Even rock historian Steve Turner, who has attempted to justify Dylan’s apostasy, admits: “The womanizing and drunkenness that Dylan once saw as evidence of the old life have apparently continued almost uninterrupted” (Turner, “Watered Down Love,” Christianity Today, May 21, 2001). Dylan’s 1983 album was titled Infidels. The July 21, 1983, issue of the Washington Post noted that Dylan believes in reincarnation and that “everyone is born knowing the truth.” An article in the San Luis Obispo (California) Register for March 16, 1983, quoted Dylan as saying: “Whoever said I was Christian? Like Gandhi, I’m Christian, I’m Jewish, I’m a Moslem, I’m a Hindu. I am a humanist.” In recent years, Dylan has practiced Lubavitch Hasidism, an ultra-orthodox form of Judaism, suggesting he has returned to his Jewish roots.

[Cleon]

While I'm sure Dylan is back to being Jewish, I really really doubt he's become a Lubavitcher.

[Jas]

Hi LLH....These guys are really good at what they do, and most of them were turned around from believing in the theory of evolution...maybe you could just try to be open to what they found instead of being so closed minded about it.

Two questions -

Do you think the folks at AiG understood evolution at all, when they believed in it? I mean, were these guys evolutionary biologists who God turned around?

(ETA: I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt, and operate on the assumption that they're telling the truth about being converts from evolution)

Secondly, what sort of research has been conducted by AiG? In other words, have they every found anything?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Secondly, what sort of research has been conducted by AiG? In other words, have they every found anything?
They're constantly pioneering fascinating new techniques for torturing logic, insulting intelligence, and openly denying the painfully obvious.

[delphi_ote]

You're not going to try to tell me Bob Dylan is a christian are you?

Dylan most certainly was born again for a time. Check the album "Saved" if you have doubts.


I've been saved
By the blood of the lamb,
Saved
By the blood of the lamb,
Saved,
Saved,
And I'm so glad.
Yes, I'm so glad,
I'm so glad,
So glad,
I want to thank You, Lord,
I just want to thank You, Lord,
Thank You, Lord.


Is he a Christian now? I doubt it. He's nothing now. As far as I'm concerned, he's a shell that does lingerie commericals of a once great man.

[rharbers]

Dylan most certainly was born again for a time. Check the album "Saved" if you have doubts.



Is he a Christian now? I doubt it. He's nothing now. As far as I'm concerned, he's a shell that does lingerie commericals of a once great man.

I think all singers used to do a "Gospel" album or two.

[delphi_ote]

I think all singers used to do a "Gospel" album or two.

But he was most certainly born again at the time. It's a fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan

[Ducky]

Dylan most certainly was born again for a time. Check the album "Saved" if you have doubts.



Is he a Christian now? I doubt it. He's nothing now. As far as I'm concerned, he's a shell that does lingerie commericals of a once great man.



Wiki has some nice links on his religious themes. There's some Christian themes, and quite alot of Jewish themes. He's a little ambiguous, but up here in Minnesota, it's hard not to do some xian themes in music when you're surrounded by so many Lutherans.

I'm of the impression he's agnostic at best.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Hi LLH....These guys are really good at what they do, and most of them were turned around from believing in the theory of evolution...maybe you could just try to be open to what they found instead of being so closed minded about it.

And what have they found?

LLH

[Dr Adequate]

OK here's a whole list of creation scientists.....

Are there scientists alive today who accept the biblical account of creation?
Note: Individuals on this list must possess a doctorate in a science-related field...

This ought to be a good start for anyone that is truely inquiring?
A truly inquiring person would ask a few more questions.

(1) Why have they needed to pad out their list with people who are not scientists? Plastic sugeons, dentists, engineers, philosophers?

(2) Why have they needed to pad out their list with people who are scientists but have no training or expertise in any field relevant to creation/evolution? Why should we care what a hydrometalurgist thinks?

(3) Why have they needed to pad out ther list with people who do not accept the biblical account of creation? It's too much trouble to check all the names on the list, but to take just one example, Leonid Korochkin is certainly not a YEC. And yet they have his name on their list --- twice. Why?

(4) Why, when you look at their reasons for being YEC, do they just give the same reasons as you can find in any cheap creationist pamphlet? For example, why is Walter Veith's argument so depressingly stupid that Answers in Genesis provide a little footnote saying that it's rubbish?

(5) If some scientific consideration has led them to their views, then why don't they publish this in some scientific journal? Or, if their views are just as faith-based on yours, of what significance is the fact that they're scientists?

(6) Why, despite all the padding, can they only come up with so few names? In 1987, Newsweek estimated that there were 480,000 earth and life scientists in the USA. AiG haven't confined themselves to the USA, nor to earth and life sciences, nor to scientists. Yet their list has only 208 names on it, and in this count I include the names that appear twice. Why are they so terribly few?

(7) AiG are desperate, aren't they?

[Dr Adequate]

Hi LLH....These guys are really good at what they do, and most of them were turned around from believing in the theory of evolution...maybe you could just try to be open to what they found instead of being so closed minded about it. What, exactly, did the dentists find? Did they find evidence for creationism, or did they find a cavity in the third upper molar?

The following people are also good at what they do.

"Teaching religious ideas mislabeled as science is detrimental to scientific education: It sets up a false conflict between science and religion, misleads our youth about the nature of scientific inquiry, and thereby compromises our ability to respond to the problems of an increasingly technological world. Our capacity to cope with problems of food production, health care, and even national defense will be jeopardized if we deliberately strip our citizens of the power to distinguish between the phenomena of nature and supernatural articles of faith. "Creation-science" simply has no place in the public-school science classroom."

Luis W. Alvarez, Nobel Prize winner
Carl D. Anderson, Nobel Prize winner
Christian B. Anfinsen, Nobel Prize winner
Julius Axelrod, Nobel Prize winner
David Baltimore, Nobel Prize winner
John Bardeen, Nobel Prize winner
Paul Berg, Nobel Prize winner
Hans A. Bethe, Nobel Prize winner
Konrad Bloch, Nobel Prize winner
Nicolaas Bloembergen, Nobel Prize winner
Michael S. Brown, Nobel Prize winner
Herbert C. Brown, Nobel Prize winner
Melvin Calvin, Nobel Prize winner
S. Chandrasekhar, Nobel Prize winner
Leon N. Cooper, Nobel Prize winner
Allan Cormack, Nobel Prize winner
Andre Cournand, Nobel Prize winner
Francis Crick, Nobel Prize winner
Renato Dulbecco, Nobel Prize winner
Leo Esaki, Nobel Prize winner
Val L. Fitch, Nobel Prize winner
William A. Fowler, Nobel Prize winner
Murray Gell-Mann, Nobel Prize winner
Ivar Giaever, Nobel Prize winner
Walter Gilbert, Nobel Prize winner
Donald A. Glaser, Nobel Prize winner
Sheldon Lee Glashow, Nobel Prize winner
Joseph L. Goldstein, Nobel Prize winner
Roger Guillemin, Nobel Prize winner
Roald Hoffmann, Nobel Prize winner
Robert Hofstadter, Nobel Prize winner
Robert W. Holley, Nobel Prize winner
David H. Hubel, Nobel Prize winner
Charles B. Huggins, Nobel Prize winner
H. Gobind Khorana, Nobel Prize winner
Arthur Kornberg, Nobel Prize winner
Polykarp Kusch, Nobel Prize winner
Willis E. Lamb, Jr., Nobel Prize winner
William Lipscomb, Nobel Prize winner
Salvador E. Luria, Nobel Prize winner
Barbara McClintock, Nobel Prize winner
Bruce Merrifield, Nobel Prize winner
Robert S. Mulliken, Nobel Prize winner
Daniel Nathans, Nobel Prize winner
Marshall Nirenberg, Nobel Prize winner
John H. Northrop, Nobel Prize winner
Severo Ochoa, Nobel Prize winner
George E. Palade, Nobel Prize winner
Linus Pauling, Nobel Prize winner
Arno A. Penzias, Nobel Prize winner
Edward M. Purcell, Nobel Prize winner
Isidor I. Rabi, Nobel Prize winner
Burton Richter, Nobel Prize winner
Frederick Robbins, Nobel Prize winner
J. Robert Schrieffer, Nobel Prize winner
Glenn T. Seaborg, Nobel Prize winner
Emilio Segre, Nobel Prize winner
Hamilton O. Smith, Nobel Prize winner
George D. Snell, Nobel Prize winner
Roger Sperry, Nobel Prize winner
Henry Taube, Nobel Prize winner
Howard M. Temin, Nobel Prize winner
Samuel C. C. Ting, Nobel Prize winner
Charles H. Townes, Nobel Prize winner
James D. Watson, Nobel Prize winner
Steven Weinberg, Nobel Prize winner
Thomas H. Weller, Nobel Prize winner
Eugene P. Wigner, Nobel Prize winner
Kenneth G. Wilson, Nobel Prize winner
Robert W. Wilson, Nobel Prize winner
Rosalyn Yalow, Nobel Prize winner
Chen Ning Yang, Nobel Prize winner
Oh yes, they're good at what they do. They're the best. And what they do is not drilling rotten bits out of people's teeth. It's science. So, in your words: "maybe you could just try to be open to what they found instead of being so closed minded about it".

[Dr Adequate]

Hi LLH....These guys are really good at what they do, and most of them were turned around from believing in the theory of evolution... How do you know what they used to believe? In some cases it's clear that they have no idea what the theory of evolution is. Here's a case in point from one of the signatories, Angela Meyer:

"This is all so complex and so interdependent that these systems cannot have come about gradually by chance... In addition, the extravagance of shape variation, color and patterns of flowers is a clear expression of a divine artist. Evolutionary processes would most likely produce a much more restricted, conservative and utilitarian display (if evolutionary processes were, in fact, possible)."
She doesn't know anything more about what she's rejecting than you do, so why give any special weight to her opinion?

[Nucular]

He's nothing now. As far as I'm concerned, he's a shell that does lingerie commericals of a once great man.
*spits out beer*

What?! Delphi, You need to listen to Time Out Of Mind and Love And Theft, then come here and say that.

*Licks beer back up*

[Nucular]

Anyways ....ever heard of Bob Dylan? Do you know the song he wrote called, "Gotta Serve Somebody" he's got something to share too if you cared enough to listen.
I can see that your head
Has been twisted and fed
With worthless foam from the mouth...
-To Ramona, Dylan 1964

[delphi_ote]

*spits out beer*

What?! Delphi, You need to listen to Time Out Of Mind and Love And Theft, then come here and say that.

*Licks beer back up*

I have. I love them. Time out of Mind is actually IN my CD player right now. But why is he shilling underwear these days? That was easily the most disturbing thing I've ever seen.

[delphi_ote]

(1) Why have they needed to pad out their list with people who are not scientists? Plastic sugeons, dentists, engineers, philosophers?

I'll never forget the day my mother handed me this book:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0890512280.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0890512280/103-9036330-8109419?v=glance&n=283155

My copy of the book prominently stated the book was by Dr. Henry Morris.

Dr. Henry M. Morris (Ph. D., Univesrity of Minnesota is founder and professor emeritus of the Institute for Creation Research. One of the world's most respected Christian apologists, Dr. Morris, often calle "the father of the modern creationism movement," is the author of over 50 books in the fields of engineering, creationism, Christian evidences, and biblical studies, many of which are extensively documented. This compilation has been amassed and edited by Dr. Morris during his 55 years of reading the literature of these fields.

Just read that copy on the back! A PhD! Even the scientists are defecting!

Then I looked up what his PhD was in. Hydrolic Engineering.

ETA I think it's adorable that it was "amassed and edited" by Dr. Morris. The whole book is an exercise in quote mining.

[Nucular]

I have. I love them. Time out of Mind is actually IN my CD player right now. But why is he shilling underwear these days? That was easily the most disturbing thing I've ever seen.
Ah, I see. I thought you meant "he's a shell, that does lingerie commercials of a once great man", not "he's a shell, that does lingerie commercials, of a once great man" - thought you were comparing his current work to lingerie commercials, rather than literally referring to actual lingerie commercials.

Yeah, that's a pretty strange decision alright. Just been googling around, I seem to have missed that before. One of the more eccentric things he's done I guess - but I'm always at a loss to figure out the reasoning behind most of the confusing things he's done in the past. Still, he's not paid to be consistent, I just want him to be.

Maybe then the Love And Theft lyric "Jump into the wagon love, throw your panties overboard" was just a way of boosting sales for Victoria's Secret: those panties will have to be replaced.

Ah well, at least he's not modelling for them

http://www.garygordonproductions.com/images/apdylanvictoria.jpg

[Nucular]

I'll never forget the day my mother handed me this book:
Which intentionally abuses the word and concept of 'evolution' in the very first sentence, according to the page you linked
The theory currently in vogue on the origin of the universe is the so-called "Big Band" theory, according to which the cosmos suddenly came to existence, sometime between 8 and 20 billion years ago by a primordial explosion of an infinitesimal particle of "space/time," which then evolved into everything else.
Any need to read further?

[delphi_ote]

That was easily the most disturbing thing I've ever seen.
http://www.garygordonproductions.com/images/apdylanvictoria.jpg
I stand corrected.

[delphi_ote]

Any need to read further?

See my edit. The entire book consists of misrepresenting things Asimov, Dawkins, and the like said about various fields of science. The funny part to me is that the book deals with big bang, thermodynamics, evolution, molecular biology, plate tectonics, etc. etc. The guy has a PhD in HYDROLIC ENGINEERING.

The one topic covered in the book he might be remotely qualified to give an expert opinion on is thermodynamics, but he clearly doesn't even understand the second law. Personally, I wouldn't want my hydrolics designed by someone who doesn't understand thermodynamically closed systems. Seems like it might be difficult to design a device whose purpose is to do work (in the technical physics sense of the word) using that very type of system.

[slingblade]

The theory currently in vogue on the origin of the universe is the so-called "Big Band" theory...

Glenn Miller and Tommy Dorsey created the universe?

[brodski]

Glenn Miller and Tommy Dorsey created the universe?

it's no more ridiculous than their usual straw-men representations of scientific theories on origins of life, the universe and everything.

[slingblade]

42!

[brodski]

42!

I was asking for that realy wasn't I? :p

[TobiasTheViking]

I was asking for that realy wasn't I? :p
yes, indeed you were.

[Wheezebucket]

I'll never forget the day my mother handed me this book:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0890512280.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0890512280/103-9036330-8109419?v=glance&n=283155

My copy of the book prominently stated the book was by Dr. Henry Morris.



Just read that copy on the back! A PhD! Even the scientists are defecting!

Then I looked up what his PhD was in. Hydrolic Engineering.

ETA I think it's adorable that it was "amassed and edited" by Dr. Morris. The whole book is an exercise in quote mining.


I was browsing the site and I noticed this awesome user review. Here's a taste -

"...But listen real closely to what I am about to tell you -- uncoverted people cannot understand the things of God -- it is only by God that we as children of God can understand the things of God - so it is natural for unconverted "Christians" and non-Christians to slap Morris' work across the face..."

It must be nice to be the holder of information that no one else can grasp without total denial of reality.

So frustrating...

[gypsynuke]

What's the difference between an unconverted christian and a non-christian?

[DigitalHoser]

Ask a fundie. Fundies know everything... (BS ALERT! BS ALERT!)

[LordoftheLeftHand]

So Kathy are you ever going to admit that the words "anti-christ" and "rapture" do not appear in the Revelation of St. John? :rolleyes:

LLH

ETA: BTW: How goes your study of the Old Testament?

[JamesDillon]

Didn't Jacob or one of those Old Testament guys wrestle the Lord Almighty to the ground or something at one point? Surely Superman could take him.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Didn't Jacob or one of those Old Testament guys wrestle the Lord Almighty to the ground or something at one point? Surely Superman could take him.

Yes, Genesis 32:21-32

But Moses got a peep show! Exodus 33:21

LLH

[stupidquestion]

That incident is actually the mythical origin of the word (name) Israel, presented as meaning "striven with God." God renamed Jacob Israel for besting him in wrestling. However, God also fought dirty and, while losing, dislocated Jacob's hip.

But rapture-wise, Superman would come up some lame excuse not to fight, just like he did in World War II.

[New Ager]

(Kathy)

But when the rapture happens and the Holy Spirit is removed from this world it will become even more evil than it is now.

(Tobias)

Now, it will become filled with people who can think and act for themselves.

(New Ager)

With mostly liberals left, they will need government to think and act for them. :)

[kurious_kathy]

So Kathy are you ever going to admit that the words "anti-christ" and "rapture" do not appear in the Revelation of St. John? :rolleyes:
Let start w/this one.. 1 John 4
Testing the Spirits
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

And as far as the rapture there is talk of all Gods holy ones coming back w/him to judge the earth so it is obvious that the rapture will happen...
Jude
14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.

As far as I can see it none of us wants to be on the wrong side of right!
Getting right with God is as easy as accepting what Jesus did on that cross!!

[delphi_ote]

Ask a fundie. Fundies know everything... (BS ALERT! BS ALERT!)

Hey, now we actually have one on the board. Maybe we should settle this once and for all.

ETA I just did. We'll see if she answers us.

Kathy,

As you are an expert in these matters, I humbly submit to you a question which has troubled us for well over a month on this board:

If God existed, and if Superman existed, and the Rapture occured, would Superman fight against God for throwing people into Hell? Would he try to save them?

Another more recent question also vexes us:

What's the difference between an unconverted christian and a non-christian?

I dearly hope you will shine the light of expert Christian raptureology down upon the heathen of this board and rid us once and for all of our ignorance.

Jesusly yours,
Delphi

[delphi_ote]

Let start w/this one.. 1 John 4
Testing the Spirits
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

And as far as the rapture there is talk of all Gods holy ones coming back w/him to judge the earth so it is obvious that the rapture will happen...
Jude
14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.

As far as I can see it none of us wants to be on the wrong side of right!
Getting right with God is as easy as accepting what Jesus did on that cross!!

Ah. She has appeared. Maybe she can just answer straight away! How lucky we are...

[Beerina]

As far as I can see it none of us wants to be on the wrong side of right!
Getting right with God is as easy as accepting what Jesus did on that cross!!

Which is what, exactly? That Jesus was killed as a sacrifice for your sins, so that you need not spend eternity dead, or in Hell? Since God is the only one who cared about this, why bother with it? Why not just say "those who live a good life and repent their sins get into Heaven"? Why add the factor that this must have happened, and that you must believe it?

It just seems like a big waste of philosophy to me, a big bunch of hoops god put himself through to satisfy nobody but himself.

[kurious_kathy]

It just seems like a big waste of philosophy to me, a big bunch of hoops god put himself through to satisfy nobody but himself.
Think about it, would you want a bunch of robots to worship you? God wants us to choose him of our own free will, he doesn't need any of us but he does love us.
If God gave the angels free will and 1/3 of them rebelled, how many more humans choose to rebel brecause they haven't seen or believed him?

[Odin]

Think about it, would you want a bunch of robots to worship you?

I might if I was a robot myself-

http://www.engrish.com/image/engrish/god-jesus.jpg

[Nucular]

God wants us to choose him of our own free will
Then why does he threaten us?

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Let start w/this one.. 1 John 4
Testing the Spirits
.....
3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

And as far as the rapture there is talk of all Gods holy ones coming back w/him to judge the earth so it is obvious that the rapture will happen...
Jude
14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.


First off thanks for replying...

Uh... neither source you quoted are from the Revelation of St. John. Furthermore the word "rapture" did not appear in the souce you provided for it.

LLH

OH BTW KK: I'll give you a hint, the word rapture appears ZERO TIMES in the bible :)

[kurious_kathy]

First off thanks for replying...

Uh... neither source you quoted are from the Revelation of St. John. Furthermore the word "rapture" did not appear in the souce you provided for it.

LLH

OH BTW KK: I'll give you a hint, the word rapture appears ZERO TIMES in the bible :)
Actually the words "Come Up Hither" cover this word "rapture" pretty well. There is much symbolism and metaphorical language used in the book of Revelation. Maybe people just need to be a believer that is Spirit filled before they can understand?

[rharbers]

Actually the words "Come Up Hither" cover this word "rapture" pretty well. There is much symbolism and metaphorical language used in the book of Revelation. Maybe people just need to be a believer that is Spirit filled before they can understand?

You are a mystic who is puzzled by the obvious but understands the invisible. I am a benighted creature who has the folly to believe in only what he can feel and see. The problem with born-again christians is that they are a bigger pain the second time around.

[delphi_ote]

Think about it, would you want a bunch of robots to worship you?

Hmm... let me think about it...

http://www.deliasgone.com/vf/terminator%20robot.jpg

Yes! That would be totally awesome! BOW TO ME, MY SLAVES! SOON WE WILL CONQUER THE WORLD! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Er... sorry. I guess I got a little carried away there.:boxedin:

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Maybe people just need to be a believer that is Spirit filled before they can understand?

Ah, I see we are back to blame the victim. This is just a spin on the classic vicious circle:

Fundie: You’re reading the bible incorrectly.
Atheist: What is the correct way to read the bible?
Fundie: To read the bible correctly you must have faith.
Atheist: Where am I supposed to get faith?
Fundie: Read the bible!
Atheist: (sighs)

LLH

[delphi_ote]

Any word on Superman during the Rapture or the difference between an unconverted christian and a non-christian, Kathy?

[gypsynuke]

Think about it, would you want a bunch of robots to worship you? God wants us to choose him of our own free will, he doesn't need any of us but he does love us.
If God gave the angels free will and 1/3 of them rebelled, how many more humans choose to rebel brecause they haven't seen or believed him?

I don't want anyone worshipping me, I enjoy my me time too much. Kathy, do you have an answer for Delphi's questions? I really do want to know the difference between a non-christian and an unconverted one.

[cpolk]

I thought 666 was the number of his name, and not the mark.

I think the "666", read, "Six-hundred-sixty-six" and not "six-six-six" (a big difference in Roman numerals), was originally 668. It was the numerical equivalent of the name of a Roman emperor who was killing Christians. Rather than being implicated, gossip was spread by using his number instead of his name.

The difference between the final "6" or "8" was due to the fact that the letter "d" was sometimes added to the end of his name. The rest of the facts allude me at this moment, but "six-hundred-sixty-six" was never a sign of the devil until Damien appeared in movies.

On topic: Could Superman's race have been the Intelligent Designers?

[kurious_kathy]

Any word on Superman during the Rapture or the difference between an unconverted christian and a non-christian, Kathy?
This seems to be a bit of a tricky question? But I would guess a non chrisitian is to be represented as the 2/3 rds of the earth that will perish when Jesus comes back to reign. As stated in the good book read Zechariah the end of chapter 13 plus all of chapter 14 covers what will happen pretty accurately.
Also in reference to an unconverted Christian. This person could be in the process of trying to believe that Jesus is the Messiah but has many questions which may in fact be holding him back from taking the leap of faith. As in Romans 10:9...."that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[slingblade]

The rest of the facts allude me at this moment, but "six-hundred-sixty-six" was never a sign of the devil until Damien appeared in movies.


I need your evidence for that, as my church preached 666 = Antichrist = Satan long before The Omen was made.

[Nucular]

Revelation 13:18, "Let he that hath understanding reckon the Number of the Beast; for it is a human number - the number is six hundred, threescore and six"

(from memory, so may be inaccurate, can't be bothered to check)

[Spidey13]

This seems to be a bit of a tricky question? But I would guess a non chrisitian is to be represented as the 2/3 rds of the earth that will perish when Jesus comes back to reign. As stated in the good book read Zechariah the end of chapter 13 plus all of chapter 14 covers what will happen pretty accurately.
Also in reference to an unconverted Christian. This person could be in the process of trying to believe that Jesus is the Messiah but has many questions which may in fact be holding him back from taking the leap of faith. As in Romans 10:9...."that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

So, kathy, 2/3 of the earth will perish when Jesus comes back. These will be the nonchristians. Question: what would happen if you and people like you turn out to be greatly successful in converting the masses to Christianity? Let's say all you folks end up converting 1/2 of the earth's population. Will Jesus then allow many Christians to perish so he can stick with only taking the 1/3 that he's supposed to?

[Beerina]

Keep in mind the vast majority of Christians are Hell-bound, too.

Presumably things will go like this:

1. Every nation gets "witnessed to"

2. People are given a brief time to sort out their "decision"

3. Game over, rapture occurs, devil ruled debauchery for 1000 years, seas and dirt give up their dead, whose name is written in the book, into the lake of lava with most of 'em.

Now, from an engineering perspective, any social engineering "solution" wherein the vast majority of people fail the test is a very poorly designed plan.

The same thought process that applies to God's stupid design for a lack of redundancy in blood vessels in the heart or brain also applies here: When the result is an infinite number of years of severe torture for not kowtowing based on hard-to-believe stories for the vast majority of people we may hold Yahweh accountable as a terrible designer of reality.

We, who didn't ask to exist, were created, and are now not even going to be disposed of (killed), which would be bad enough, but kept around and tortured for ever and ever.

Kurious_kathy, Dawkins points out that God is the worst fictional character ever. I further add he just barely misses being the worst theoretical character possible because he only severely tortures the vast majority of people who ever lived, for ever and ever, rather than every single person who ever lived, for ever and ever.

Why is this line of reasoning incorrect? How is a god who plans on torturing the vast majority of people who ever lived, for ever and ever, not an inconceivably evil entity? Especially if he knew it was going to happen all before it started. And no, choosing not to foretell the furture is not an escape clause.

[Belz...]

Kathy,
Respectfully, go (rule 8) yourself.

No, seriously. Just go (rule 8)ing (rule 8) yourself. I've been rather nice to you. Yeah, I joke, but I haven't gotten nasty. We've asked you MULTIPLE times not to preach here, and yet, you seem to think that it's ok to continue to do so. You ignorant slut. I'm so happy that your rat bastard of a deity bring you some kind of pleasure, but he's a lie. A stupid, outmoded, lie told by jaded idiots to simple morons like you.

Enjoy your little lie.

Oh, stop preaching. Enjoy the kittens and poetry.

Ow. That actually hurt me. And I'm an ATHEIST.

Nice throw, man.

[Belz...]

As far as I can see it none of us wants to be on the wrong side of right!

Damn straight, and your god is an insane, stupid, evil god. I'm not standing with him, one way or another.

[Belz...]

Think about it, would you want a bunch of robots to worship you? God wants us to choose him of our own free will, he doesn't need any of us but he does love us.

And when we don't he throws us in eternal hellfire ?? Some loving god.

[kurious_kathy]

So, kathy, 2/3 of the earth will perish when Jesus comes back. These will be the nonchristians. Question: what would happen if you and people like you turn out to be greatly successful in converting the masses to Christianity? Let's say all you folks end up converting 1/2 of the earth's population. Will Jesus then allow many Christians to perish so he can stick with only taking the 1/3 that he's supposed to?
Hi Spidey, I would like to use the term true believers. If anyone believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth that he believes Jesus Christ died on that cross to save us.
"We all need to come to the realization that sin is real and we've all done it." We all need Gods forgiveness to be saved! I myself chose to quit rebelling and start believing God. His word is true!!

And scripture does say more will deny their maker than receive Him which to me is utterly stupid. Why deny when the truth sets us free?

Anyways here's another article from RBC that pertains to the title of this thread... http://www.rbc.org/questions/answer.php?catagory=bible&folder=prophecy&topic=Prophecy&file=whenrapture.xml

[Spidey13]

And scripture does say more will deny their maker than receive Him which to me is utterly stupid. Why deny when the truth sets us free?
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Well, if it is predestined by scripture these people will deny their maker, then that takes out any free will, doesn't it? There's really nothing they can do about it. If the majority of people end up becoming "true believers" then that would prove scripture wrong which I'm assuming you believe to be impossible.

[kurious_kathy]

Well, if it is predestined by scripture these people will deny their maker, then that takes out any free will, doesn't it? There's really nothing they can do about it. If the majority of people end up becoming "true believers" then that would prove scripture wrong which I'm assuming you believe to be impossible.
Well it was Gods timing in my life to make a believer out of me. I think God can save anyone after what he has done for me. He did what it took to help me want to look to Him. I don't know what it might take for you or anyone else, I just know for me it took brokenness. I had to get to the end of myself before I looked to Him for the answers?
If we seek we will find. Perhaps others that aren't finding Him just aren't looking? I just know what He's done for me and some of the other friends and family I have to turn each of us around. Now there is peace! I would want this peace for each and every soul alive!

Here's another article by RBC that defines that certain sense of knowing that comes from believing.....
http://www.rbc.org/questions/answer.php?catagory=bible&folder=esecurity&topic=Eternal+Security&file=goingtoheaven.xml

[Spidey13]

Hmm, let's see if my questions was answered, shall we?

Well it was Gods timing in my life to make a believer out of me. I think God can save anyone after what he has done for me. He did what it took to help me want to look to Him. I don't know what it might take for you or anyone else, I just know for me it took brokenness. I had to get to the end of myself before I looked to Him for the answers?
I didn't ask about you, I asked about everyone else.
If we seek we will find. Perhaps others that aren't finding Him just aren't looking?
But if scripture says the majority of people won't be saved, then these people can look all they want and they'll never find him because he won't let them. It's not their fault, is it?
I just know what He's done for me and some of the other friends and family I have to turn each of us around. Now there is peace! I would want this peace for each and every soul alive!
But the Bible says each and every soul will NOT find this peace, so to try and get everybody to do so appears to be contrary to what the Bible wants. Are you disobeying the Bible?

Here's another article by RBC that defines that certain sense of knowing that comes from believing.....
http://www.rbc.org/questions/answer.php?catagory=bible&folder=esecurity&topic=Eternal+Security&file=goingtoheaven.xml
Try thinking for yourself.

[kurious_kathy]

It's true Spidey that scripture says many will be lost, but not all. Believers just want to try to be a light to others in hopes that maybe somehow God's love and truth will draw them into the kingdom. Only God knows for sure who will come to faith.
All I can say is that I honestly hope and pray that many people in these last days will have their spiritual eyes opened so that they will not persih. If life is a test perhaps loving, praying, and reaching out to lost is all we really need to do as Christians. Oh how I wish I could show you how God made me believe there is life on the other side of this one!

[Ducky]

Kathy: In the past week I have helped someone put together a website to help families of missing persons, I have organized a fundraiser to help a friend buy their kid a computer and I am working toward helping another person apply for state assistance to qualify for medical insurance for them and their family. This while I have a full time job, a seperate business I am trying to get off the ground and posting here.

I'm not looking for kudos, but I wonder: If I don't believe in Jesus, will I still go to hell despite all of the things I do earnestly every day to help those around me? Do you even see how condescending your preaching is?

What have you done other than preach here? Don't give me the "I have kids and stuff to do" crap. Many stay at home mothers (like my sister) do alot of charity work and still find the time to be mothers and wives.

What, apart from trying to win converts here, do you do to help those around you?


ETA:

I think if you want to see what a real good Christian does with their time, you should check out KellyJ's website and understand all the work she does to help people all while being a mother and wife. When you do, ask yourself why no one calls her a troll here, or why she is respected and welcomed, unlike yourself and your actions.

[Roadtoad]

You know, the subject matter reveals just how trite the whole Rapture business has become.

[kurious_kathy]

Kathy: In the past week I have helped someone put together a website to help families of missing persons, I have organized a fundraiser to help a friend buy their kid a computer and I am working toward helping another person apply for state assistance to qualify for medical insurance for them and their family. This while I have a full time job, a seperate business I am trying to get off the ground and posting here.

I'm not looking for kudos, but I wonder: If I don't believe in Jesus, will I still go to hell despite all of the things I do earnestly every day to help those around me? Do you even see how condescending your preaching is?

What have you done other than preach here? Don't give me the "I have kids and stuff to do" crap. Many stay at home mothers (like my sister) do alot of charity work and still find the time to be mothers and wives.

What, apart from trying to win converts here, do you do to help those around you?
I think this is totally nice of you and think it shows that you have love for people and do care enough to get involved. That's so cool!

While myself I am still home pending whether I am going to be on permanent disability and or what my physical limitations are. I really don't want to need any pain meds anymore as I feel they were very harmful to me.
I am seeking to get involve in some things outside the home that are supportive to people and will probably get more involved in AA or NA as I have been delivered from addiction and am wanting to support others in recovery programs.

Also through the church I am wanting to find ways to help the community with donations and such. I am needing to get more going this way, but I know the right things are falling into place. Maybe I'll even try to donate some time to counceling at the teen pregnancy center? I don't like feeling I have physical limitations with what kind of work I get a chance to contribute to, but I know up here in the foothills there are many families that need support and will keep reaching out.

[Ducky]

I think this is totally nice of you and think it shows that you have love for people and do care enough to get involved. That's so cool!

While myself I am still home pending whether I am going to be on permanent disability and or what my physical limitations are. I really don't want to need any pain meds anymore as I feel they were very harmful to me.
I am seeking to get involve in some things outside the home that are supportive to people and will probably get more involved in AA or NA as I have been delivered from addiction and am wanting to support others in recovery programs.

Also through the church I am wanting to find ways to help the community with donations and such. I am needing to get more going this way, but I know the right things are falling into place. Maybe I'll even try to donate some time to counceling at the teen pregnancy center? I don't like feeling I have physical limitations with what kind of work I get a chance to contribute to, but I know up here in the foothills there are many families that need support and will keep reaching out.


So in other words: You just preach here.

Funny how most athiests I know do more to help people around them than most evangelical fundies I have met.


As for physical limitations, does having half a pound of titanium holding my spine together count? Sorry, I don't have much sympathy, though I hope you get well whatever your illnesses are.

[Roadtoad]

Yup. She doesn't get it.

[Spidey13]

And probably never will.

[Ducky]

PS. Kathy: still didn't answer my question.

Given all I do, if I don't believe in jesus do I still go to hell?

[Ceritus]

The real question and reality is the antichrist, not Superman. And there are many that will take his point of view unfortunately. But when the rapture happens and the Holy Spirit is removed from this world it will become even more evil than it is now. The tribulation period will last for seven years, then Jesus will return to reighn on earth for 1000 years. Personally I can' wait!!


If only the rest of you chrstians couldn't wait as well. If you truly can't wait then please leave me and the rest of the other heathens alone so we can take our rightful place of rulers of the materialistic world and let these 7 years of tribulation begin. Infact kathy if you would like you could donate all your possessions to me because I could sure use some more possessions and in doing so you help god because it jump starts me the heathen and perhaps the antichrist into power. If I am indeed the antichrist all you can do is disagree with me and not try to overthrow me because that would be going against the will of god.

Let the tribulations begin kathy, go to your church and spread the word of god by telling its members to leave the heathens alone and infact try to convert weak christians to become heathens as well. Even better yet, just keep doing what you are doing.

[stamenflicker]

Funny how most athiests I know do more to help people around them than most evangelical fundies I have met.

Everyone likes to think "their people" do more, but when it comes to volunteering outside of a church the numbers stack up like this:

Who volunteers at a non-profit organization other than a church?

3 out of 10 Americans donate some of their time each week to a non-profit organization, other than a church. (1999)

Christians (36%) are more likely than non-Christians (27%) to help a non-profit organization each week. (1999)

24% of adults volunteered volunteer some of your free time to help a non-profit organization, other than a church. (2005)

Mosaics (20%) were the least likely generation to volunteer some of your free time to help a non-profit organization, other than a church. (2005)

Notional christians (27%) were more likely than evangelicals (25%) to volunteer some of your free time to help a non-profit organization, other than a church. (2005)

from: http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=13

Pretty close. Likewise, the number of people giving to charity other than church is very close, with Christians having a slight edge according to this particular survey. One of the problems that I see here is that so many soup kitchens, food pantries, etc. are actually run by churches. Volunteering or contributing to these activities would then be removed from the data, making the Christian / non-Christian volunteerism data even further apart than it appears here.

Also of interest is the percentages of people willing to actually help churches. I don't see a stat for non-believers helping churches, but I suspect it is very rare.

Flick

[Ducky]

Thanks for those numbers.

I'll restrict my statements to those at hand then.


Hmm. No I won't.

None of my activities are through a NPO or church. How are you going to quantify that?

See Delphi's responses to this information.