More TV vicar

[dogbite666]

BBC 2 Tuesday 24th Jan 9pm Alternative Medicine.

Apparently they are going to show a woman in China having open heart surgery without any anesthetic, rather they use accupuncture to stem the pain! I saw the trailer for this and she sure looked like she was in pain to me, I can't wait for this.

[Rolfe]

The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means, and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure. In order to do this, the patient has to have an endotracheal tube in place, and it is impossible to place such a tube unless the patient is anaesthetised, by which I mean unconscious to the point where the cough reflex is suppressed.

This trick is similar to the one showing a lady being sawn in half. The only difference is that nobody seriously expects the audience of the latter show really to believe that a lady has indeed been sawn in half.

Even where lesser claims are made for acupuncture anaesthesia, such as orthopaedic surgery being performed, it's still a case of "please ignore the man behind the curtain", or in this case the I/V drip which is of course only delivering saline, it couldn't possibly have any morphine in it, could it? Many Chinese statistics on acupuncture "anaesthesia" openly admit that other regular painkillers have been used in conjunction.

And finally, European surgeons used to do quite complex stuff before anaesthetics were discovered. The father of the Bronte sisters had surgery for cataracts, apparently quite successfully. J. S. Bach also had eye surgery shortly before he died in 1750. The amount of pain patients can soak up in that situation varies considerably but is often a surprising amount.

But anyway, open-chest surgery without intubation is just flat impossible.

Rolfe.

[dogbite666]

The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means, and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure. In order to do this, the patient has to have an endotracheal tube in place, and it is impossible to place such a tube unless the patient is anaesthetised, by which I mean unconscious to the point where the cough reflex is suppressed.


Indeed. I just looked up the presenter of this programme, Professor Kathy Sykes, you can view her credentials here:

http://www.bris.ac.uk/ias/collier/

I assume her position as Collier Chair of Public Engagement in Science and Engineering means she will be taking the skeptical view point. However, the trailer for this did seem to show Professor Sykes as accepting this claim. We shall see.

[Jon.]

Indeed. I just looked up the presenter of this programme, Professor Kathy Sykes, you can view her credentials here:

http://www.bris.ac.uk/ias/collier/

I assume her position as Collier Chair of Public Engagement in Science and Engineering means she will be taking the skeptical view point. However, the trailer for this did seem to show Professor Sykes as accepting this claim. We shall see.

I've seen Kathy on "Rough Science". She's pretty good there. IIRC, she is a physicist. I'm interested to know how she treats this case. Keep us updated please!

[Rolfe]

I've just had a look at the Radio Times blurb for the programme and it does indeed seem to imply that Kathy becomes a convert. However, this could well be deliberately misleading in order to attract viewers. There's something about an MRI machine, and certainly it's hardly surprising if sticking needles in a patient makes bits of the brain light up, but unless someone has found a way of performing open-heart surgery without opening the chest, then the headline claim is simply bogus.

Rolfe.

[dogbite666]

I've just had a look at the Radio Times blurb for the programme and it does indeed seem to imply that Kathy becomes a convert. However, this could well be deliberately misleading in order to attract viewers. There's something about an MRI machine, and certainly it's hardly surprising if sticking needles in a patient makes bits of the brain light up, but unless someone has found a way of performing open-heart surgery without opening the chest, then the headline claim is simply bogus.


I agree. I remember when the Horizon programme took the JREF Challenge with a test for water memory as evidence for homeopathy. The trailer had a similar vein - 'The results will amaze you!' and pictures of Randi looking concerned. However, as we all know in the actual programme it failed the test and the pictures of randi looking concerned were just take outs of him coffing.

I wonder what other woo subjects they'll cover in this series, I hope the do one on homeopathy. :)

[walthrup48]

Mummymonkey's link to BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm)

"Professor Sykes said: "The pain matrix is involved in the perception of pain - it helps someone decide whether something is painful or not, so it could be that acupuncture in some ways changes a person's pain perception."

Uh, isn't this effect known more commonly by a word beginning with 'p'?

[TV's Frank]

I want to know who makes up phrases like "the pain matrix".

[Blue Bubble]

I want to know who makes up phrases like "the pain matrix".

The same types that concoct "extraordinary rendition" ?

[pjh]

The BBC Two show will also feature heart surgery done using acupuncture instead of a general anaesthetic.

The patient is conscious during the operation in China, but she was given sedatives and a local anaesthetic.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm

[The_Fire]

Even if it WAS possible, I would prefer being completely under.....I really don't relish the idea of seeing someone messing arround with my innards like that.:faint:

[pjh]

Modern 'keyhole' type surgeries mean you wouldn't get to see it, it's NOT open heart surgery merely 'heart surgery'.

however ...

The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means,and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure.

Although acupuncture anaesthesia is still widely used in China for craniotomy and thyroidectomy, it is not as frequently employed today for open heart operations in China as it was in the 1970s. The main reason is that the patients have to undergo lengthy preoperative training to practice slow and deep abdominal and diaphragmatic breathing required during the operation to overcome the positive atmospheric pressure in the event that the pleural cavity is inadvertently entered; another prerequisite is that the surgeons must be extremely gentle, meticulous, and speedy. Conventional anaesthesia obviates both of these requirements and is thus preferred by younger surgeons. http://heart.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/83/3/256

[bridgy]

The BBC Two show will also feature heart surgery done using acupuncture instead of a general anaesthetic.

The patient is conscious during the operation in China, but she was given sedatives and a local anaesthetic.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm
Sooo... if she was given a sedative and local anaesthetic, what was the acupuncture meant to be doing??

Also, the way the experiment with the needles and the brain scan is described, it seems that all they are proving is that deeper needles have a greater affect on the brain (whatever that affect might be) - I wonder if they did the same experiments on random points rather than acupuncture points to see if the same affects were observed?

I suppose I'll have to watch and see :confused:

[ChristineR]

Even if it WAS possible, I would prefer being completely under.....I really don't relish the idea of seeing someone messing arround with my innards like that.:faint:

Have you ever had this sort of surgery? After the right sedatives, you're lying there saying "ooooooh! neato! They just pulled out my artery! Cool!"

After the stuff wears off, that's a different story.

[Beth]

From Parade Magazine yesterday:

What the medical establishment considers to be false may in fact be right for some people. (I first realized this many years ago, when I witnessed open-heart surgery in China performed without any anesthesia except for an acupuncture needle in the patient’s ear—this at a time when doctors generally were convinced that acu-puncture was a sham.) http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2006/edition_01-22-2006/Medical_Myths

Now, parade magazine isn't exactly a bastion of critical thinking, but I thought it appropriate for this thread. There's at least one medical doctor claiming to have witnessed such a thing.

[Interesting Ian]

I agree. I remember when the Horizon programme took the JREF Challenge with a test for water memory as evidence for homeopathy. The trailer had a similar vein - 'The results will amaze you!' and pictures of Randi looking concerned. However, as we all know in the actual programme it failed the test and the pictures of randi looking concerned were just take outs of him coffing.



The results were very clearly going against him initially. I have never ever ever seen anyone look so worried as Randi did at that moment. I cannot imagine anyone looking so worried and devastated even at the prospect of being executed the next morning. It certainly put paid to the claims often made by skeptics that he would be delighted to award the $1 million.

[ChristineR]

From Parade Magazine yesterday:

http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2006/edition_01-22-2006/Medical_Myths

Now, parade magazine isn't exactly a bastion of critical thinking, but I thought it appropriate for this thread. There's at least one medical doctor claiming to have witnessed such a thing.

A lot of these more dramatic demonstrations were faked, or the patient was given other painkillers, or the patient was just highly motivated not to scream. The article doesn't give a date, but Chairman Mao declared that acupuncture (Chinese folk medicine) was superior to modern medicine, just as traditional Chinese art/agriculture/whatever was superior to western versions.

Seems like Parade once published some pictures of a surgery that was shown to be a fake just from careful study of the pictures. Don't know if this is what they are talking about here.

[Rolfe]

Christine's right. This seems to be a common spectacle staged for visitors to China, to show how great their traditional cultural methods are. Now the BBC programme may be going to show something different, but there is a long history of fakery involved in this area.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

The results were very clearly going against him initially. I have never ever ever seen anyone look so worried as Randi did at that moment. I cannot imagine anyone looking so worried and devastated even at the prospect of being executed the next morning. It certainly put paid to the claims often made by skeptics that he would be delighted to award the $1 million.Ian, Randi is a showman. He knows all there is to know about racking up tension. I don't think you can read anything at all into any facial expression he might choose to adopt.

Rolfe.

[Beth]

Christine's right. This seems to be a common spectacle staged for visitors to China, to show how great their traditional cultural methods are. Now the BBC programme may be going to show something different, but there is a long history of fakery involved in this area.

Rolfe.

Well, I certainly can't make any judgment on whether or not it was faked. If it was, it clearly fooled that MD.

[ChristineR]

Well, I certainly can't make any judgment on whether or not it was faked. If it was, it clearly fooled that MD.

Assuming it is the same case, they were doing things that an American MD would have a hard time wrapping his mind around. No American hospital could ever be persuaded to be complicit in a woman lying on a trick table with a cadaver placed on her chest.

http://members.aol.com/garypos/Rosenfeld_sram.html

This link explains how it was done. The original photo is not here, just a sketch. I wouldn't be surprised if this made it into Randi's commentaries; the photo may be online somewhere.

[Beth]

Assuming it is the same case, they were doing things that an American MD would have a hard time wrapping his mind around. No American hospital could ever be persuaded to be complicit in a woman lying on a trick table with a cadaver placed on her chest.

http://members.aol.com/garypos/Rosenfeld_sram.html

This link explains how it was done. The original photo is not here, just a sketch. I wouldn't be surprised if this made it into Randi's commentaries; the photo may be online somewhere.

Same doctor and presumably the same operation being described. Thanks for the link. It was interesting.

[ysabella]

Well, also, we've heard one explanation that the patients are given local anesthetic and sedatives, as well as acupuncture. Possibly this doctor from Parade, years ago, witnessed the surgery but they just didn't show her the part where they gave the anesthetic and sedatives.

[Interesting Ian]

Ian, Randi is a showman. He knows all there is to know about racking up tension. I don't think you can read anything at all into any facial expression he might choose to adopt.

Rolfe.

It was absolutely unmistakable. I've never seen anyone look so worried. You obviously didn't see the programme.

[ChristineR]

It was absolutely unmistakable. I've never seen anyone look so worried. You obviously didn't see the programme.

The most worried person I've ever seen was Macbeth, just after Macduff tells him "Macduff was from his mother’s womb Untimely ripped," hence sidestepping the "unkillable" spell the witches placed on him.

Oh, wait. That was just a really good actor.

[Anders W. Bonde]

The original photo is here: http://members.aol.com/garypos2/Rosenfeld_photo2.html

Doesn't look to me like the 'incision' is in the 'patient's' torso at all...

[Rolfe]

It was absolutely unmistakable. I've never seen anyone look so worried. You obviously didn't see the programme.Not only did I see it twice on live TV, I have it on videotape and I've rewatched it several times.

So, I "obviously" didn't see the programme, just the same way as Randi was "obviously" really worried.

Q, E, and, I think, D.

Rolfe.

[Interesting Ian]

Not only did I see it twice on live TV, I have it on videotape and I've rewatched it several times.

So, I "obviously" didn't see the programme, just the same way as Randi was "obviously" really worried.

Q, E, and, I think, D.

Rolfe.

How do you expect me to respond here? I have said what I have to say. Any reasonable adult would acknowledge that he was extremely worried indeed. The fact you were unable to recognise this is extremely interesting from the psychological perspective, but there's really no debate to be had here.

This is not to denigrate you whatsoever. I think you're ok, and I like your straightforward no-nonsense manner. I also like your arrogance. But I'm not prepared to get into an infantile debate as to whether black is really white. Sorry.

[Thing]

Any reasonable adult would acknowledge that he was extremely worried indeed. The fact you were unable to recognise this is extremely interesting from the psychological perspective, but there's really no debate to be had here.

Can I direct you to Randi's commentary of February 20th, 2004?

"Just a quick explanation: I received a lot of mail about a somewhat devious bit of editing that was carried out by the BBC. At one point, I'm shown with my hand up to my mouth as if I'm expressing anxiety about what the presiding statistician is about to announce as the final result of the experiments. That was a moment when I coughed violently — though the audio was edited out — as can be seen under careful observation. I was suffering from very severe laryngitis at that meeting, and my voice was hardly there. It was a bit of a cheap shot, when in actuality I had no trepidation whatsoever about the results that were about to be announced. I trusted those involved, the protocol was tight and proper, and I was confident, as I always am, about what science would show us."

Next please.

[Interesting Ian]

Can I direct you to Randi's commentary of February 20th, 2004?

"Just a quick explanation: I received a lot of mail about a somewhat devious bit of editing that was carried out by the BBC. At one point, I'm shown with my hand up to my mouth as if I'm expressing anxiety about what the presiding statistician is about to announce as the final result of the experiments. That was a moment when I coughed violently — though the audio was edited out — as can be seen under careful observation. I was suffering from very severe laryngitis at that meeting, and my voice was hardly there. It was a bit of a cheap shot, when in actuality I had no trepidation whatsoever about the results that were about to be announced. I trusted those involved, the protocol was tight and proper, and I was confident, as I always am, about what science would show us."

Next please.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I was referring to his demeanor as the early results came in.

[Rolfe]

Ian, you said it was "obvious" that I hadn't seen the show. You were wrong. So, is it at least possible that you're wrong about something else? I don't see Randi's expression as indicating much at all - whether deliberate tension-building acting, or just a bit of editing, I don't see it as especially significant.

According to you, that debars me from being regarded as a reasonable adult. Gee, thanks.

This is a question of interpretation, and it's impossible to declare that one interpretation is right and the other wrong. Even if Randi declares that it was just acting, or just editing, this doesn't invalidate Ian's interpretation, because Randi could be fibbing about that. Nevertheless, the acting/editing explanation remains tenable, and is indeed supported by Randi. So, opinion. Reasonable adults can agree to differ on a matter of opinion, no?

Ian, why do you always see such things in black and white, my interpretation to the exclusion of all else? Don't you think that's a bit on the childish side?

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

I've started the post-programme commenting in the other thread - I think the Medicine forum might get more of the interested posters coming past. What say we take the discussion there?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1401512#post1401512

Rolfe.