Sami Antar Attacks the Settlement of Tel Aviv [Archive]

webfusion

19th January 2006, 07:58 PM

Fortunately, the only person killed in the Bus Station of Tel Aviv was Sami Antar, the suicide bomber himself.

So what happens should Israel actually withdraw from the West Bank and yet these bombings continue? What then? Suppose a future Sami Antar carries a suitcase nuclear bomb?
We should know, there is no difference between Tel Aviv and Ofra in the eyes of these fanatics. It is all one huge Jewish abomination as far as they are concerned. Listen to what is coming out of the mouths of the leaders in Iran, for instance. It is no surprise that the IDF Chief of Staff immediately brought forward his accusation that the responsibility for the attack today in Tel Aviv lies with the mullahs. (An accusation that he backed up with some good proof apparently, according to the news reports I have seen).
At some point in the near future Israel must reach far beyond the local Palestinian cells of terrorists, and strike directly at the sources of these operations -- Tehran (and Damascus).

No more talk. Talk is cheap.
Time to act.

The Fool

19th January 2006, 08:01 PM

webfusion

19th January 2006, 08:19 PM

...you don't get to bomb anyone yet.

key word -- "Yet"

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz accused Iran of funding Thursday's suicide bombing attack near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv.

The Fool somehow (wrongly) equates my posting here of evidence from the highest ranks of the Israeli military and government, as an indication that I am personally involved with any such direct-strike actions that are being planned and authorized by Israeli Defense Forces against the perpetrators of international terror.

Hey, I'm just a lowly sergeant.
But I would certainly be glad to see such action take place.

The Fool

19th January 2006, 09:39 PM

key word -- "Yet"

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz accused Iran of funding Thursday's suicide bombing attack near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv.

The Fool somehow (wrongly) equates my posting here of evidence from the highest ranks of the Israeli military and government, as an indication that I am personally involved with any such direct-strike actions that are being planned and authorized by Israeli Defense Forces against the perpetrators of international terror.

Hey, I'm just a lowly sergeant.
But I would certainly be glad to see such action take place.
web, you are not personally responsible...no more than the palestinian in the street chanting slogans is responsible. You are just another person chest thumping for war....you may get your wish or you may not, I hope you don't.

Art Vandelay

19th January 2006, 10:14 PM

Mycroft

19th January 2006, 10:42 PM

That's why I don't see how a Palestinian state would solve anything. Separate state declared, repeated attacks prompt Israeli ultimatums, attacks continue, Israeli declares them act of war, invades, occupies West Bank, and we're right back where we're started.

You're right.

So long as nobody holds the Palestinians accountable for their part in creating peace, there will never be peace.

The Fool

20th January 2006, 03:09 AM

You're right.

So long as nobody holds the Palestinians accountable for their part in creating peace, there will never be peace.
What should "holding the Palestinians accountable" Involve?

WildCat

20th January 2006, 04:59 AM

What should "holding the Palestinians accountable" Involve?
Hmmmm, lets see... it's a pleasant little place run by various groups of armed loons whose stated desire is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and kill every Jew that lives there, and who will kill anyone who tries to stop them and raise money through extortion and smuggling.

I can't think of a thing wrong w/ that picture, they're a fine upstanding bunch there... :rolleyes:

zenith-nadir

20th January 2006, 05:01 AM

What should "holding the Palestinians accountable" Involve?Shutting down the Palestinian terror organizations is one. Arresting the leaders of the Palestinian terror organizations is two. Preventing the Palestinian terror organizations from operating from Palestinian soil is three. Stopping the money flow to Palestinian terror organizations is four. Holding the Palestinian Authority accountable with sanctions for not stopping Palestinian terrorism is five.

The problem the fool is the entire world - except Israel - turns a blind eye and never holds the Palestinian Authority accountable for terrorism originating from areas under it's full control. This long-time public support for Palestinian statehood without ever holding anyone accountable for Palestinian terrorism has actually prolonged the conflict. Without holding anyone accountable for terrorist attacks originating in Palestinian Authority areas gives the Palestinians little incentive to moderate their home-grown militants or meet formal commitments under several internationally-brokered peace agreements.

If the world does not wish to prolong Palestinian statelessness and is serious about making a positive contribution to Israeli-Palestinian peace and the establishment of a Palestinian state it needs to adopt an approach which holds the Palestinian leadership accountable for terrorism originating from it's areas of control.

Islamic Jihad took responsibility for the suicide bombing yesterday. Is the Palestinian Authority arresting the known Islamic Jihad leaders today. Nope. And that is exactly what I mean.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060119/i/r2124457672.jpg

Palestinian militants from the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades hold up their weapons during a rally in support of the Fatah movement's parliamentary candidates in the West Bank city of Jenin January 19, 2006. REUTERS/Mustafa Abu DayehTheres some terrorists, why are they not arrrested by the PA? Because these al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades terrorists belong to Fatah - the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060119/capt.jrl13701191752.mideast_israel_palestinians_el ections_jrl137.jpg

A boy looks at masked Palestinian militants from the Al-Awda brigades, linked to the Fatah movement, during a protest against the upcoming Palestinian parliamentary elections, in the Askar refugee camp near the West Bank city of Nablus Thursday Jan. 19, 2006. (AP Photo/Emilio Morenatti)There's some different terrorists, why are they not arrrested by the PA? Do not armed groups of terrorists roaming the streets threaten the very authority of the Palestinian Authority?

And that is what I am on about....without ever holding the Palestinians accountable for Palestinian terrorism has actually prolonged the conflict.

20th January 2006, 05:26 AM

Go have a cold shower Web....you don't get to bomb anyone yet.

How did you get that cool "warmed post" avatar to the right? I want one. What is a "warmed post" anyway?

20th January 2006, 05:28 AM

What should "holding the Palestinians accountable" Involve?

I can't believe I am saying this:

Gun Control Laws

Call me wackey but there is something a bit off the mark when hundreds of people go running around with automatic weapons.

Manny

20th January 2006, 06:02 AM

...one. ...two. ...three. ...four. ...five.
Heh. As a start I'd just be happy to see the UN add Israel to its maps.

20th January 2006, 06:08 AM

Heh. As a start I'd just be happy to see the UN add Israel to its maps.

UN (http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/english/htmain.htm)?

Manny

20th January 2006, 06:14 AM

UN (http://www.cjp.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=173298).

Darat

20th January 2006, 06:17 AM

Heh. As a start I'd just be happy to see the UN add Israel to its maps.

It already does.

(ETA) Oh I see your link but as LW showed the UN does show Israel on maps - marks its borders as "international borders" and so on. The article you link to is something that apparently goes back to 1981 used for one reason and which the UN's spokesman has this to say ""Clearly, as you rightly point out, the display of the 1948 map has acquired a new and very troubling connotation in the light of the remarks made recently by the president of the Islamic Republic of Iran," Gambari said. "The secretary-general has made clear his strong disapproval of such remarks - and he hopes that the Member States' Committee on the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People will consider deciding not to display the 1948 map in future."

20th January 2006, 06:22 AM

Nothing like an unequivical refutation. That Koffe, he's da man.

zenith-nadir

20th January 2006, 06:35 AM

Nothing like an unequivical refutation. That Koffe, he's da man.Ya...just imagine if the UN held a conference "International Day of Solidarity with the Mexicans" and the map they presented at the conference was a Mexican independence map from the 19th century showing California and Texas as parts of mexican territory. :boggled: :rolleyes:

And people wonder why Israelis have an axe to grind. ;)

Manny

20th January 2006, 06:39 AM

20th January 2006, 06:41 AM

zenith-nadir

20th January 2006, 07:09 AM

I wonder if the UN will be represented at the Holocust Conference in Iran?

This may sound wrong (and you know that I can recognize wrongness) but I am sorta looking forward to that. It is like munching popcorn and waiting for a train wreck.The Germans have a word for that...schadenfreude. ;)

zenith-nadir

20th January 2006, 07:19 AM

For true skeptics:

Friday January 20, 10:39 PM - (AP) (http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060120/ap/d8f8fcfg2.html)

Israel's defense minister accused Iran and Syria of masterminding a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv the day before that wounded 20 people and said the militant group believed responsible would be targeted in raids. A Syrian official denied involvement.

Islamic Jihad, which is backed by Syria and Iran, claimed responsibility for bombing a fast-food restaurant Thursday.

No fewer than five organizations—Hamas, PIJ, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine and Hezbollah have their main offices in Damascus.

Tuesday, 19 November, 2002, 17:19 GMT - (BBC) (http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38473000/jpg/_38473571_jihadleader150ap.jpg&imgrefurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2492591.stm&h=190&w=150&sz=8&tbnid=ogFxRL3ISMolRM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=76&hl=en&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsyria%252Bislamic%2Bjihad%2Bleader%26 svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG)

Syria has rejected a United States demand to close down an office of the militant Palestinian group Islamic Jihad.

The request came after the group said it had carried out last Friday's ambush in the West Bank city of Hebron, which killed 12 Israelis.

But a Syrian foreign ministry statement said the Damascus office had nothing to do with the attack.Sound familiar? :rolleyes:

Mycroft

20th January 2006, 09:07 AM

What should "holding the Palestinians accountable" Involve?

Wow, as you can see there are so many different ways to answer that question, I could spend all day at it.

For starters, we just recognize they have an equal roll to play with equal responsibilities in creating peace.

We stop making excuses for why they can’t be expected to do things such as arresting terror suspects, ending hate speech from their government run Mosques, changing the curriculum in their UNRWA run schools, etc. and start looking for solutions, finding ways they can do these things.

We need to hold them responsible when they do things that encourage terror. When they give pensions to the families of suicide bombers, we pull their funding. When they’re caught smuggling ship loads of weapons, they get economic sanctions.

davefoc

20th January 2006, 09:16 AM

What do the various posters propose that Israel do about this situation. Should it hold on to its settlements to force the Palestinian terrorists to disarm. So far that hasn't looked like the winning strategy. Perhaps it should expand the settlements to force the Palestinian terrorists to disarm? Perhaps it should make life so miserable for the Palestinians that they are forced to move into other Arab countries?

Perhaps Israel should just annex the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip and make everybody that lives on this territory Israeli citizens?

OK, maybe none of those ideas is what this thread is about. I guess this thread is about getting fired up to go bomb the Iranians. And Israel is going to be a safer place after that?

Just so we're clear here, nobody that has criticized Israel for its expansion beyond the 1967 borders thinks that when Israel stops expanding or when Israel gives back territories total, euphoric peace is going to break out all over. We just think that path is the one most likely to succeed in bringing peace and justice to the area over the long term.

The decision to transport people to live on land that was previoiusly seen as somebody elses was guaranteed to create widespread violence for a very long time. Using that violence as an excuse to continue to expand is a method guaranteed to sustain violence indefinitely. That is the issue that must be dealt with by the sabre rattlers in this thread. And as near as I can see no one wants to address that.

Mycroft

20th January 2006, 12:30 PM

What do the various posters propose that Israel do about this situation. Should it hold on to its settlements to force the Palestinian terrorists to disarm.

Dave, the suicide-bombing that started this thread was in Tel Aviv, which is as far away from any settlement as you can get.

So far that hasn't looked like the winning strategy. Perhaps it should expand the settlements to force the Palestinian terrorists to disarm? Perhaps it should make life so miserable for the Palestinians that they are forced to move into other Arab countries?

I think you’re suffering from a peculiar kind of myopia. This myopia causes you to focus on only one thing as the “root cause” for the conflict while completely ignoring dozens of other factors. For example, you keep asking ”What should Israel do…?”

Is it at all possible for you to turn that question around and ask yourself what should the Palestinians do to work towards peace, and what they should stop doing that works against peace? Obviously you think the settlements are a strong contributing factor, and I respect that opinion, but does it really overshadow everything else?

Perhaps Israel should just annex the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip and make everybody that lives on this territory Israeli citizens?

Do you think that’s viable? Why?

OK, maybe none of those ideas is what this thread is about. I guess this thread is about getting fired up to go bomb the Iranians. And Israel is going to be a safer place after that?

If it removes Iran’s nuclear program, then yes, I think Israel would be safer after that.

Just so we're clear here, nobody that has criticized Israel for its expansion beyond the 1967 borders thinks that when Israel stops expanding or when Israel gives back territories total, euphoric peace is going to break out all over. We just think that path is the one most likely to succeed in bringing peace and justice to the area over the long term.

But again, it completely ignores anything the Palestinians might do to promote peace, and ignores the many things Palestinians do to sabotage peace. I don’t believe you can only look at one side of the equation.

The decision to transport people to live on land that was previoiusly seen as somebody elses was guaranteed to create widespread violence for a very long time.

I don’t believe seeing this land as “someone else’s” is universal, and I believe it requires an Arab-centric racist point of view to see it that way.

Using that violence as an excuse to continue to expand is a method guaranteed to sustain violence indefinitely. That is the issue that must be dealt with by the sabre rattlers in this thread. And as near as I can see no one wants to address that.

Except that any objective observer has to concede that Israel is not expanding, but is withdrawing.

davefoc

20th January 2006, 01:36 PM

Mycroft wrote:

I think you’re suffering from a peculiar kind of myopia. This myopia causes you to focus on only one thing as the “root cause” for the conflict while completely ignoring dozens of other factors. For example, you keep asking ”What should Israel do…?”

Is it at all possible for you to turn that question around and ask yourself what should the Palestinians do to work towards peace, and what they should stop doing that works against peace? Obviously you think the settlements are a strong contributing factor, and I respect that opinion, but does it really overshadow everything else?

It doesn't seem to me that you answered my question about what you think Israel should do. My impression is that your view is that what ever Israel does is the right thing and perhaps that is the answer you expected me to understand implicitly.

As for what I think Palestine should do:
I really only have a few recommendations for them that seems clear cut from my point of view.

1. Stop all terrorist activity initiated from the Gaza Strip, completely, categorically and absolutely. Treat terrorist activity initiated from the Gaza Strip as a crime against Palestine and Palestinians. Terrorist acitivity initiated from the Gaza Strip is without any moral or practical justification.

2. Accept the reality of Israel. Israel is not going away anymore than the British Colonialists are going to turn North America back to the native inhabitants and return to the UK.

3. Recognize that Israel is not a monolithic zionist steam roller. Israel is populated by a range of people, with a range of views. Many and probably most of them want to see a stable, successful Palestinian state established. Many and probably most want to see an end to expansion into land that will become the Palestinian state. Many and probably most are willing to see the government disband settlements in the West Bank as part of a peace plan.

A problem for the Palestinians, and I don't know what they can do about this is that the American subsidies of Israel tend to encourage the most militant aspects of Israel's population. They have enabled Israel to maintain and expand its settlement programs over the years. The forces behind the American subsidies, the arms manufacturers, the Crhistian zionists, the Jewish Zionists and some other groups have a symbiotic relationship with the Palestinian terrorists. More violence leads to more subsidies which leads to more colonial expansion ad infinitum.

The problem for the Palestinians is to know what Israel will do if the attacks are discontinued. Will the Zionists stop combing the world for non-Palestinians to populate the colonies? I don't know what the Palestinians can do about this exactly. If the Palestinian militants went away would Israel then abandon it expansion goals? I think it is possible that it already has. Sharon may in the end be seen as the man who led Israel through the period of Zionist expansionist zeal into the period when Israel recognizes fixed borders and guaranteed lands for Palestinians.

So a strategy for Palestinians and probably the one I would recommend based on what I understand is to make it clear to Israel and the world that Palestinians can create a stable peaceful government given the chance. And the best place to begin this process is in the Gaza Strip. A peaceful, successful Gaza Strip will serve to put pressure on the Israelis from the US, from the world and from its own citizens that yearn for a just peaceful resolution to implement the same kind of process in the West Bank. Continued chaos and violence in the Gaza Strip will be harmful to almost everybody.

Art Vandelay

20th January 2006, 02:04 PM

We just think that path is the one most likely to succeed in bringing peace and justice to the area over the long term.For a lot of people, "peace and justice" means "no more Israel".

Using that violence as an excuse to continue to expand is a method guaranteed to sustain violence indefinitely. Treating violence as "inevitable" is what helps keep it going. Palestinians have the power to stop the violence, and Israelis do not. So ultimately, it is the Palestinians who are responsible.

Mycroft

20th January 2006, 04:52 PM

It doesn't seem to me that you answered my question about what you think Israel should do.

One reason is your questions make assumptions I don't believe are self-evident and are highly questionable.

For example you ask, "Should it hold on to its settlements to force the Palestinian terrorists to disarm."

I think you're pretty much alone is believing that the purpose of the settlements is to force the Palestinian terrorists to disarm. I'm not aware of any evidence to support that, I'm not aware of anyone other than you who believes that, and I’m at a loss to understand how you believe it logically follows from anything we know about the conflict.

Another reason is your questions seem to promote this relentless mindset that the only things worth considering is what Israel should do about the conflict. While it’s nice to see you identify some areas where you think the Palestinians should change, you also seem to carry forth the assumption that while terrorism from the Gaza Strip should stop, that other terrorism is still justified.

Yet another reason is that you seem to want to only talk about the aspects of the conflict that you think are important, even if they don’t fit well within the topic. For example, this terrorist attack was in Tel Aviv, yet you still want to make it about settlements in the West Bank and US foreign aid to Israel.

webfusion

20th January 2006, 05:25 PM

mycroft indicates: "For example, this terrorist attack was in Tel Aviv"

and it was motivated and authorized from the Tehran and Damascus-based islamic maniacs.

In answer to davefoc's question about whether Israel would be a safer place if it went ahead and undertook a mission to completely wipe out the nuclear capabilities of Iran (which is perfectly justifiable, under the circumstances), then I say -- yes, the whole world will be safer and owe a big 'thank you' to the IDF after such a strike.

BTW, a raid on Iran by the IAF would fall under the category of "pre-emptive" and is totally legal, in light of the direct war actions that Iran has already sponsored in the heart of Tel Aviv (the bombing at the Stage nightclub was a similar event, whose source can be traced to Tehran and Damascus).

The Fool tells me that I'm chest-thumping for war (which is untrue, since the war is already underway, and I am in support for Israel to make a direct, limited attack upon selected military-value targets, in Iran, to eliminate a threat of dire proportions from that quarter in this ongoing war). He also says:
"you may get your wish or you may not, I hope you don't."

I will get my wish (of the IDF taking out the Iranian nuclear refining capabilites), guaranteed. You can bet on it.

The Fool

20th January 2006, 06:21 PM

We need to hold them responsible when they do things that encourage terror. When they give pensions to the families of suicide bombers, we pull their funding. When they’re caught smuggling ship loads of weapons, they get economic sanctions.

you simply cannot move past collective punishment....convinced it will work one day??

webfusion

20th January 2006, 06:37 PM

Mycroft

20th January 2006, 06:55 PM

you simply cannot move past collective punishment....convinced it will work one day??

That's not collective punishment any more than sanctions against any country is collective punishment.

When you think about it, withdrawal of funding doesn't even rise to the level of sanctions.

What other straw-men do you want to bring to this discussion?

The Fool

20th January 2006, 08:38 PM

That's not collective punishment any more than sanctions against any country is collective punishment.

When you think about it, withdrawal of funding doesn't even rise to the level of sanctions.

What other straw-men do you want to bring to this discussion?

fair enough, if you cannot think past collective punishment just redefine collective punishment and claim you are not advocating it.

The Fool

20th January 2006, 08:45 PM

TF -- "collective punishment" is your inaccurate description of Israel going directly after the sources of terror.
If an imam broadcasts a hate-filled anti-Jew call-to-violence sermon over the loudspeaker mounted in the village mosque minaret, and the Israelis decide to disconnect this speaker (or even arrest the cleric), you would not call this deprivation in the village of their religious leader "collective punishment"? Or would you?

I don't see the arrest of someone inciting people to violence as anything remotely like the collective punishment that mycroft likes so much.

How about removing the funding for a medical clinic in the town where the imam preaches hate....good Idea?

also....I just got a warning email because I replied to your post where you advocate the bombing of Iran with this "Go have a cold shower Web....you don't get to bomb anyone yet" was it the reference to the shower or the reference to the bombing thats a problem?? seems a bit harsh on poor little me :)

Freakshow

20th January 2006, 09:09 PM

fair enough, if you cannot think past collective punishment just redefine collective punishment and claim you are not advocating it.So other than targeted assassination, what action against terrorism wouldn't be collective punishment?

The Fool

20th January 2006, 09:17 PM

So other than targeted assassination, what action against terrorism wouldn't be collective punishment?
just about any measures used by most police forces against crime....when was the last time you saw someone suggesting sanctions against high crime communities? stop the murders or we will withdraw your social security funding??

Freakshow

20th January 2006, 09:21 PM

just about any measures used by most police forces against crime....when was the last time you saw someone suggesting sanctions against high crime communities? stop the murders or we will withdraw your social security funding??And is that as practical when combating terrorism as it is when combating local crime? I don't think it is. I wish it was. But the terrorism problem is larger, more complex, and often has government backing, or at the very least, government complicity. Terrorism is not a criminal justice problem, and cannot be effectively handled as such.

Mycroft

20th January 2006, 09:23 PM

fair enough, if you cannot think past collective punishment just redefine collective punishment and claim you are not advocating it.

Shoo.

The Fool

20th January 2006, 09:25 PM

And is that as practical when combating terrorism as it is when combating local crime? I don't think it is. I wish it was. But the terrorism problem is larger, more complex, and often has government backing, or at the very least, government complicity. Terrorism is not a criminal justice problem, and cannot be effectively handled as such.
Are you suggesting that the US criminal justice system should cease its anti-terrorism work? You say its not a criminal justice problem....

Who caught Mcvey? the US army?

Freakshow

20th January 2006, 09:26 PM

Are you suggesting that the US criminal justice system should cease its anti-terrorism work? You say its not a criminal justice problem....

Who caught Mcvey? the US army?If Mcvey would have been just one of many agents of a government that was supporting terrorism, I would have advocated action against that nation.

ETA: And to answer your question: state-sponsored, or even state-allowed, terrorism outside of US borders is not a criminal justice problem.

The Fool

20th January 2006, 09:32 PM

How did you get that cool "warmed post" avatar to the right? I want one. What is a "warmed post" anyway?
don't know Ed...must be some vast right wing conspiracy :) I never knew suggesting a shower was so offensive.

The Fool

20th January 2006, 09:41 PM

If Mcvey would have been just one of many agents of a government that was supporting terrorism, I would have advocated action against that nation.

ETA: And to answer your question: state-sponsored, or even state-allowed, terrorism outside of US borders is not a criminal justice problem.

ok, which "nation" are you going to punish for actions by people that claim to be working for or with hamas or people that commit some crime and hamas claims responsibility?

responding by withdrawing funding for clinics in palestinian towns as Mycroft wants? Is that a good Idea?

Freakshow

20th January 2006, 09:43 PM

ok, which "nation" are you going to punish for actions by people that claim to be working for or with hamas or people that commit some crime and hamas claims responsibility?

responding by withdrawing funding for clinics in palestinian towns as Mycroft wants? Is that a good Idea?The nation that happens to have a government that does little or nothing to fight Hamas. The nation that elects Hamas members to positions of power.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10496166/from/RL.3/

They are free to elect whoever they want. And we are free to react accordingly.

The Fool

20th January 2006, 10:00 PM

The nation that happens to have a government that does little or nothing to fight Hamas. The nation that elects Hamas members to positions of power.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10496166/from/RL.3/

They are free to elect whoever they want. And we are free to react accordingly.
Can you tell me the name of this nation?

Freakshow

20th January 2006, 10:03 PM

Can you tell me the name of this nation?More of a government, than a nation. But now you are getting into semantics, because you don't have much of an argument to stand on. The article refers to the government of "Palestine". Not really a nation, but close enough. They have their own government.

The Fool

20th January 2006, 10:24 PM

Mycroft

20th January 2006, 10:32 PM

Ok...so lets get back to the point...for actions of members of Hamas, you would advocate sanctions against "palestine"? Is that close enough to your position?

No, for the inaction of the government of "Palestine" in reigning in Hamas.

ETA:
Not too much different for toppling the government of Afghanistan for sheltering/supporting Al Qaeda, only a lot less severe.

Art Vandelay

20th January 2006, 10:50 PM

More of a government, than a nation. But now you are getting into semantics, because you don't have much of an argument to stand on. The article refers to the government of "Palestine". Not really a nation, but close enough. They have their own government.Only when it's convenient for them.

The whole concept of nationhood is based on the idea that a group of people can be treated as a whole... which included collective punishment. The Fool is asking us to reject nationalism without bothering to tell us what should go in its place, or recognizing that it's the very thing Palestinians claim to be fighting for.

The Fool

21st January 2006, 03:31 AM

Only when it's convenient for them.

The whole concept of nationhood is based on the idea that a group of people can be treated as a whole... which included collective punishment. The Fool is asking us to reject nationalism without bothering to tell us what should go in its place, or recognizing that it's the very thing Palestinians claim to be fighting for.

Art...there a lot of rights and responsibilities associated with Nationhood. You seem to want to make up some implied obligations and forget the implied rights....

Collective punishment is still stupid even if you think that its ok...I'm always amazed by the number of people on a skeptics board that can support something as simply illogical as Collective punishment...Why is it that you would not introduce it at home?

zenith-nadir

21st January 2006, 05:06 AM

I'm always amazed by the number of people on a skeptics board that can support something as simply illogical as Collective punishment...Why is it that you would not introduce it at home?

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060121/capt.jrl13401201613.mideast_israel_palestinians_el ections_jrl134.jpg

Palestinian militants from the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an armed group linked to the ruling Fatah Movement, march past election posters in the West Bank village of Qabatiyah, nearJenin Friday, Jan. 20, 2006. (AP Photo/Mohammed Ballas)Explain for us Dave and the Fool why terrorists are allowed to walk down "main street Palestine" with their weapons free and without fear of arrest? Especially when the Palestinian Authority is obligated under several internationally-brokered peace agreements to disarm and dismantle the terrorist organizations. Is it because of Israeli settlements? Or is it because of collective punishment?

Why it's neither. Israeli settlements and collective punishment are derails away from the real issue.

Fri Jan 20, 7:45 PM ET (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060121/ap_on_re_mi_ea/syria_iran_1)

DAMASCUS, Syria - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad met Friday with the leaders of the Palestinian groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Syria, expressing his support a day after 20 people were wounded in Tel Aviv in a suicide attack claimed by Jihad.Nations such as Syria and Iran support the Palestinian terrorist organizations.

Fri Jan 20, 7:45 PM ET - (continued) (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060121/ap_on_re_mi_ea/syria_iran_1)

On the second and final day of his first official visit to Syria, Ahmadinejad held separate meetings with leaders of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, and a representative of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.Nations such as Syria, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, formerly Iraq and Iran, meet with designated terrorist organizations. There is no mistake that Ahmadinejad - and many others - support terrorists who's mission is to destroy Israel - and they support, fund, arm and organize these terror organizations.

Fri Jan 20, 7:45 PM ET - (continued) (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060121/ap_on_re_mi_ea/syria_iran_1)

On Thursday, his first day in Syria, the Iranian president made a new attack on the existence of Israel, challenging Europe to take back the Jews who emigrated to Israel.

He said he was confident that no Jews would remain in Israel if European countries allowed them to immigrate, according to Iran's official Islamic Republic News Agency, which reported the remarks on Friday.These people, Assad, Ahmadinejad and countless others are devoted to the destruction of Israel more than seeking a lasting peace for the Palestinians. And that is the real issue.

There is only one thing the Arab League can unanimously agree upon and that is "opposition to the state of Israel." For years, Arab states have collectively used the Palestinians as pawns, first to destroy Israel and to divert the attention of their own angry fundamentalist populations away from their own despotic rule.

One of the most fundamnetal obligations and responsibilities of a nation is to not allow terrorists to use your soil for terrorism. But that is exactly what the Palestinian Authority allows and therefore Palestinians must bear responsibility for their current plight. Palestinians are not manipulated to allow terrorist organizations to operate freely in Gaza and the West Bank because of A) Israeli settlements or B) collective punishment. Those are byproducts of allowing terrorists to use your soil for terrorism.

webfusion

21st January 2006, 05:37 AM

I took a little break from the forums, to celebrate my 18th wedding anniversary with a (mutual) hot aroma-bath and oil massage. Nothing like it on a freezing January night...

Anyway, back to our regularly-scheduled evaluation of continued suicide bombings in the cities of Israel, which are carried out at the behest and the encouragement (political, financial and material) of Iran and Syria.

1. "How about removing the funding for a medical clinic in the town where the imam preaches hate....good Idea?" (asked twice by TF)

Google "Palestinian Medical clinic" and you'll come up with only 3 (three) different articles, none of which refer to Israel imposing funding restrictions on the Palestinian Red Crescent (Red Crystal) or any specific clinics.
------ where is your story derived from, TF?

2. "for actions of members of Hamas, you would advocate sanctions against "palestine"? Is that close enough to your position?"

I cannot speak for others, but in the OP I posted here, my advocacy of action against the source of suicide attacks in Tel Aviv refers to Iran and Syria, as they have been shown (according to the Israeli Defense Minister and other sources) to be directly involved in lending their material and political support to these maniac bombers. I'll take Shaul Mofaz at his word, thank you.

{{{{ eta -- even the Palestinians themselves are claiming that "We believe that the orders to carry out Thursday's suicide attack came directly from Islamic Jihad leaders abroad." (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1137605876601&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) }}}}

3. "ok, which 'nation' are you going to punish for actions by people that claim to be working for or with hamas or people that commit some crime and hamas claims responsibility?"

Iran.
Syria.

The sending of suicide bombers is not "some crime" -- it is an act of wanton terror perpetrated against ALL the civilian population of Israel, since the implied threat is "next time, it might be a nuclear-suitcase/dirty bomb" -- with Iran's leader holding forth on his position of the acceptability of such a thing (wiping Israel off the map).

If Israel can eliminate such a threat, by making a daring raid deep into Iran to demolish their nuclear capacity entirely, then so be it.
I just don't have a problem with it, at all.
It is a perfectly justifiable and logical and effective method to overcome the Iranian intent to develop 'nuclear terror' against Israel (again, the implied threat of nuclear explosion is clearly there, when Iran authorizes a suicide attack into the nightclubs or the Central Bus Station of Tel Aviv).

4. "Why is it that you would not introduce it (collective punishment) at home?"

I grew up in a house where my parents would impose collective punishment.
If my sister acted out of line, we all got punished for it. The idea that our acts had consequences beyond any individual personally suffering, led to a collective mindset of none of us wishing to commit wrongs that would lead to my parents needing to impose the penalties on all siblings.

It worked for my family.
I see no reason it shouldn't work for the Palestinians.

Interestingly, what do we see as the official PA condemnation of this latest suicide bomber?
Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas strongly condemned Thursday's suicide bombing in Tel Aviv, saying the perpetrators were trying to "sabotage" next week's parliamentary election.

"This is an act of sabotage by all standards," Abbas told reporters in Ramallah. "The perpetrators are trying to sabotage not only the parliamentary elections, but also the security of the Palestinian people."

Turnspeak.
The bomber was trying to kill jews, just like all the other Palestinian attacks over the years. (dating back to the attacks of the fedayyin in the 1950's and even before) --- The 'perpetrators' are trying to sow terror, to sow hatred, and to perpetrate atrocities against innocent civilians. That is what should be said by Abbas, calling a spade a spade.
The Iranian directors of these bombing maniacs don't care a whit about the Palestinian elections or Palestinian security -- all they care about is the overall effect of terror upon Israeli society, and the capacity to totally disrupt the peaceful endeavors of ordinary people in the pursuit of their normal lives.

That, TF, is wayyyyyy much more than "some crime" ---

zenith-nadir

21st January 2006, 05:59 AM

"This is an act of sabotage by all standards," Abbas told reporters in Ramallah. "The perpetrators are trying to sabotage not only the parliamentary elections, but also the security of the Palestinian people."

Turnspeak. The bomber was trying to kill jews, just like all the other Palestinian attacks over the years. If Abbas was actually being truthful then he has the moral obligation to arrest and stop the individuals and groups sabotaging A) the parliamentary elections and B) the security of the Palestinian people.

But he does no such thing. He has not arrested anyone in connection with the suicide bombing. Nor has he or the Palestinian Authority arrested the known leaders of Islamic Jihad living in Gaza and the West Bank.

Which gets back to my point, Palestinians must bear responsibility for their current plight.

webfusion

21st January 2006, 06:19 AM

Arrests were made in the past:
PA security officials told the Post that Abbas had issued 'orders' to the Palestinian security forces to step up their efforts to prevent Islamic Jihad or any other radical group from carrying out attacks on Israel ahead of the elections.

"We've already arrested several Islamic Jihad members responsible for previous suicide attacks on Israel and they are being held in a Jericho prison," said one official.

Now we are being fed the line that the attacks are an effort to disrupt the elections.
What about after the elections? What will the attacks be blamed on then?
(and there will bemore attacks, of that you can be assured, especially after HAMAS gains seats in the PA administration).

Heck, I can even predict HAMAS demanding that those 'several Islamic Jihad members responsible for previous suicide attacks' now need to be released from that Jericho prison, all in the name of the 'righteous struggle' against Israel.

zenith-nadir

21st January 2006, 06:51 AM

Arrests were made in the pastYou and I both know Web that if the Palestinian Authority was really serious they would make a big deal about arresting the individuals responsible for:

"trying to sabotage not only the parliamentary elections, but also the security of the Palestinian people."

And that's the big lie. The Palestinian Authority talks the talk but unfortunately the Palestinian Authority never walks the walk.

kimiko

21st January 2006, 07:12 AM

Ya...just imagine if the UN held a conference "International Day of Solidarity with the Mexicans" and the map they presented at the conference was a Mexican independence map from the 19th century showing California and Texas as parts of mexican territory. :boggled: :rolleyes: No. If the UN held a conference "INternational Day of Solidarity with the Southwest Peoples" ("Southwest" used since this is a US based board- the area composed of California, Nevada, Texas, Utah and sections of Arizona, Colorada, New Mexico, and Wyoming.) and displayed a map that had no reference to US or Mexican governments in the area. That's very rough though, as the 'southwest' is far, far larger and the (many, distinct) indigenous populations have already been reduced to a small fraction of the total.

The government of Mexico (as present in the southwest) would be more akin to the Ottoman Empire or the British mandate government- one centered somewhere else that has control over territory but is not made primarily of or for the people in question.

In which case the corresponding position of Palestinian supporters would be: that for the fair treatment of the peoples of the area, they should be afforded the right to exercise self-determination without large tracts excised from the proceedings by foreign powers.

Aren't you an American, Z-N? You should know the history of the southwest better.

webfusion

21st January 2006, 07:40 AM

Here is the name of a particular guy who should be arrested, right now:

In Gaza City, Islamic Jihad leader Khaled al-Batsh.

This is a man who needs to be locked up in a PA prison.
But he won't be. Fuggedaboudit.

=======================================

kimiko -- total derail. Thanks for participating, anyway.

=======================================

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1128
A special Iranian plane flew Palestinian Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal to Revolutionary Guards' H-Q at Bandar ( Monday, Dec. 12 ) after he spent 10 days in Tehran as favored guest of Iran’s clerical rulers. There, he conferred with RG commanders on operational collaboration between the two Palestinian groups, Hamas and Islamic-Jihad in Gaza and the West Bank, and their hook-up with Iranian networks and Hizballah in Lebanon.

The more I look at this, the more I realize that Israel needs to act forcefully in Iran on a scale so massive and far-reaching that these terror networks cannot even contemplate continuing their barbaric acts.

Mycroft

21st January 2006, 09:26 AM

...<snip>...

Kimiko,

Would you consider yourself sympathetic to (or a member of) Aztlan or MEChA?

The Fool

21st January 2006, 04:53 PM

4. "Why is it that you would not introduce it (collective punishment) at home?"

I grew up in a house where my parents would impose collective punishment.
If my sister acted out of line, we all got punished for it. The idea that our acts had consequences beyond any individual personally suffering, led to a collective mindset of none of us wishing to commit wrongs that would lead to my parents needing to impose the penalties on all siblings.

It worked for my family.
I see no reason it shouldn't work for the Palestinians.

---
One of the silliest most patronising musings I have ever read on here.....Whats next, are you going to suggest Buttock smacking for bombers?

As I said...it never ceases to amaze me how seemingly rational people on a skeptic board champion the cause of something as stupidly illogical as collective punishment....

Freakshow

21st January 2006, 04:55 PM

No, for the inaction of the government of "Palestine" in reigning in Hamas.

ETA:
Not too much different for toppling the government of Afghanistan for sheltering/supporting Al Qaeda, only a lot less severe.Yep, what he said.

(Just wanted to let The Fool know I wasn't ducking his question. I don't agree with you, The Fool, but I don't dislike you either. You were at the very least owed an answer to your question.)

Freakshow

21st January 2006, 04:56 PM

One of the silliest most patronising musings I have ever read on here.....Whats next, are you going to suggest Buttock smacking for bombers?

As I said...it never ceases to amaze me how seemingly rational people on a skeptic board champion the cause of something as stupidly illogical as collective punishment....I'm open to suggestions. What do you think should be done?

The Fool

21st January 2006, 05:19 PM

I'm open to suggestions. What do you think should be done?
I'm suggesting you treat them as the criminal killers they are and try to keep the itchy fingers off people who you classify as the same "nationality".

I doubt if you seriously have no clue what to do about murderers, how to track them down and bring them to justice...

Freakshow

21st January 2006, 05:26 PM

I'm suggesting you treat them as the criminal killers they are and try to keep the itchy fingers off people who you classify as the same "nationality".

I doubt if you seriously have no clue what to do about murderers, how to track them down and bring them to justice...I know what to do about them here, in this country. I do not know what to do about them in another country, where the government appears to turn a blind eye to the murderers and does not have a serious interest in stopping them. Mycroft pointed out Afghanistan as a comparison. I think it is a good one. The Taliban was not interested in doing anything against Osama, and certainly not in turning him over to us. It is a similar situation that we are discussing.

webfusion

21st January 2006, 06:45 PM

By the IDF bombing the nuclear refinement centrifuges at Natanz and Isfahan, Iran will be made to understand a valuable lesson -- it is being held responsible for acts of terror it sponsors. That is not "collective punishment" TF, it is just directed surgical strikes at the proper targets.

The USA just 'took out' a few nasty terrorists in Pakistan, yeah, some innocents got caught in the crossfire, but the targets were pinpointed and sucessfully eliminated (with the exception of the alQueda guy who decided to miss the party).

The IDF mainly pinpoints and goes after specific people. Some are arrested and sit in Israeli jails & some get killed. That's the routine...

Sami Antar was a student at An-Najah University in Nablus. I do not see the IDF going into Nablus and closing that institute of higher education because one of its progeny is a maniac. Although I could certainly understand the logic of the IDF doing so...

even if TF cannot.

Art Vandelay

21st January 2006, 06:52 PM

I'm suggesting you treat them as the criminal killers they are and try to keep the itchy fingers off people who you classify as the same "nationality".You're either completely lost as to what the issue is, or deliberately acting obtuse. The question is not what the PA should do about terrorists, but what Israel should do about the PA not doing anything about terrorists.

I doubt if you seriously have no clue what to do about murderers, how to track them down and bring them to justice...Those things involve exercising sovereignty over Palestine, something the Palestinians reject.

Art...there a lot of rights and responsibilities associated with Nationhood. You seem to want to make up some implied obligations and forget the implied rights....How so?

Collective punishment is still stupid even if you think that its ok...I'm always amazed by the number of people on a skeptics board that can support something as simply illogical as Collective punishment...You have yet to explain why it's stupid.

Why is it that you would not introduce it at home?You mean, why doesn't the US collectively punish the US? Do you really need this explained to you?

The Fool

21st January 2006, 07:24 PM

I know what to do about them here, in this country. I do not know what to do about them in another country, where the government appears to turn a blind eye to the murderers and does not have a serious interest in stopping them. Mycroft pointed out Afghanistan as a comparison. I think it is a good one. The Taliban was not interested in doing anything against Osama, and certainly not in turning him over to us. It is a similar situation that we are discussing.
tell me...because the PA does not eliminate hamas you believe its because they have no interest.....The IDF cannot eliminate or control Hamas...Is that because they are not interested either?

ZN shows pictures of Hamas marching the streets and asks why the PA does not arrest them....why doesn't the IDF arrest them? Not interested?

Manny

21st January 2006, 07:24 PM

I doubt if you seriously have no clue what to do about murderers, how to track them down and bring them to justice...Well, let's see. We had some foreigners stop by and murder some of our citizens not too long ago. Here's what we did. We said to every single country in the world, "cooperate or lose your sovereignty." Two countries failed to cooperate, and both lost their sovereignty. I would be a hypocrite if I held Israel to a different standard when the governments at question are directly involved in funding the murders and protecting the murderers.

One of the silliest most patronising musings I have ever read on here.....Whats next, are you going to suggest Buttock smacking for bombers?On a much less serious note, many forum members are engaged in a multi-partisan effort to confine all buttock smacking in this forum to this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=50801). I invite you to join this effort.

Freakshow

21st January 2006, 07:27 PM

tell me...because the PA does not eliminate hamas you believe its because they have no interest.....The IDF cannot eliminate or control Hamas...Is that because they are not interested either?

ZN shows pictures of Hamas marching the streets and asks why the PA does not arrest them....why doesn't the IDF arrest them? Not interested?If the IDF eliminated them, there would be severe political consequences. Many people, yourself included, would find it reason to hate Israel even more. It would take a long time for Israel's political place in the world to recover from that.

That being said, I personally wish they would. But then, I'm not Israel, so I wouldn't have to deal with the negative political repercussionsof such an action.

Be honest...how would you react if Israel went after Hamas, and started killing Hamas members by the hundreds or thousands? You'd be here railing against Israel, wouldn't you?

The Fool

21st January 2006, 07:29 PM

You have yet to explain why it's stupid.

You mean, why doesn't the US collectively punish the US? Do you really need this explained to you?

why is it stupid? Why would sanctions on the black community in Austalia to address the high crime rate among black youth be stupid?

quick question....why is it a good idea to punish the people who commit the crime rather than everyone with the same colour hair?

Art...if you asked Hamas what they want the Israelis to do in order to make thier job easier as a terrorist organisation they would say "collective punishment please"

You are being played like a cheap violin.

Freakshow

21st January 2006, 07:33 PM

Art...if you asked Hamas what they want the Israelis to do in order to make thier job easier as a terrorist organisation they would say "collective punishment please"I think they would say "Not react to our attacks at all, and show the world that it is okay for us to keep killing Jews."

webfusion

21st January 2006, 07:36 PM

[quote]TF asks -- "why doesn't the IDF arrest them? Not interested?"

Strawman.
The IDF does arrest them.
Ketziot Prison is filled to capacity with thousands of Palestinian terrorists caught in the act of perpetrating violence and lots of terrorist wannabes.

However, this thread is NOT about Ketziot, and it is NOT about the Palestinian terrorism really. It is about Iran and Syria.

From the OP: "At some point in the near future Israel must reach far beyond the local Palestinian cells of terrorists, and strike directly at the sources of these operations -- Tehran (and Damascus)."

I know it's hard to keep focused on that, what with the natural tendency to bring the discussion back to what is going on in the 'occupied territories' --- but let's at least try, for the sake of a change of pace.

The Fool

21st January 2006, 07:39 PM

If the IDF eliminated them, there would be severe political consequences. Many people, yourself included, would find it reason to hate Israel even more. It would take a long time for Israel's political place in the world to recover from that.

That being said, I personally wish they would. But then, I'm not Israel, so I wouldn't have to deal with the negative political repercussionsof such an action.

Be honest...how would you react if Israel went after Hamas, and started killing Hamas members by the hundreds or thousands? You'd be here railing against Israel, wouldn't you?
crap...why doesn't the IDF arrest these terrorists? They must not care...or worse they must secretly support Hamas...come on...there cannot be any other reason why they don't just arrest them....There they are as plain as day....just walk up and arrest them. According to many they wouldn't even need heavy weapons just a handgun and a club....come on boys get off your arses and arrest them, are you some sort of terrorist apologist???

Arresting terrorists would damage Israels international reputation? Lol..... Come on...get moving, they are terrorists. ZN has pictures of them wandering in the open...wtf is the IDF doing? They must be in league with them.....

Freakshow

21st January 2006, 07:42 PM

crap...why doesn't the IDF arrest these terrorists? They must not care...or worse they must secretly support Hamas...come on...there cannot be any other reason why they don't just arrest them....There they are as plain as day....just walk up and arrest them. According to many they wouldn't even need heavy weapons just a handgun and a club....come on boys get off your arses and arrest them, are you some sort of terrorist apologist???

Arresting terrorists would damage Israels international reputation? Lol..... Come on...get moving, they are terrorists. ZN has pictures of them wandering in the open...wtf is the IDF doing? They must be in league with them.....So why do you think these terrorists aren't arrested or killed?

Elind

21st January 2006, 07:45 PM

just about any measures used by most police forces against crime....when was the last time you saw someone suggesting sanctions against high crime communities? stop the murders or we will withdraw your social security funding??

Did you complain to your local police about not being allowed to go to the beach during your little troubles recently? Sure sounds like collective punishment to me.

webfusion

21st January 2006, 07:48 PM

Art...if you asked Hamas what they want the Israelis to do in order to make thier job easier as a terrorist organisation they would say "collective punishment please"

Freakshow already answered this correctly, but I'll chime in as well. --

In the Gaza Strip, Hamas is focusing on upgrading its terrorist infrastructure, mainly by producing longer-range Qassam rockets, and planning major attacks for future implementation.

In some cases, Hamas is working now with other organizations, such as the Popular Resistance Committees, in launching attacks that it directed and funded but was not blamed for.

IDF senior officers believe Hamas will preserve its military wing and will block any attempt to disarm it.

Personally, I think that sending the IAF out across the seas and raiding Iranian nuclear facilities in the next few weeks, would send HAMAS a serious message, that they can lay down their arms, or the IAF will find each and every one of them as they drive around in their Mercedes' limos ---- this whole thing is a no brainer. Israel is not about to sit still for another few years of this war of attrition. Ehud Olmert is about to pull the rug out from under these islamic nutjobs, in one fell swoop, starting in Natanz.

webfusion

21st January 2006, 07:59 PM

wtf is the IDF doing?

The IDF is shooting the terrorists, as necessary, The Fool, and also trying to stay off the 'streets' in the occupied territories, while their PA elections are underway.
On Thursday night, IDF soldiers killed a Palestinian, Ziad Zohour, throwing a firebomb west of the West Bank city of Hebron.

I seem to recall that a few guys seen creeping theough the "no-man's land" in Gaza were killed as well, in the middle of the night. Believe me, TF, the IDF isn't sleeping.

===========================
As an IDF sergeant myself, I am certainly aware that sometimes you have to back off, and not inflame a situation. While the elections are underway in the Palestinian Authority, the IDF is exercising maximum restraint and leaving the "palestinian street" alone, by and large.

It is so easy for people to sit in their comfortable armchairs and wring their hands -- while 18-year old jews in a Jeep are having firebombs thrown at them on patrol.
And why are they on patrol? Shouldn't they just park their Jeeps in their base motorpool, and leave the roads unprotected for ambushes against civilian traffic?

Ambushes against jewish civilian traffic, I should hasten to mention, dates back to well before any 'occupation' started!
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_fedayeen.php

The claim that the 'occupation' provides the motive for terrorism is obviously wrong.
So, it must be something else...

Art Vandelay

21st January 2006, 08:07 PM

why is it stupid? Why would sanctions on the black community in Austalia to address the high crime rate among black youth be stupid?Don't play games with me. I asked a question. Do you have an answer, or just a bunch of rhetorical questions?

quick question....why is it a good idea to punish the people who commit the crime rather than everyone with the same colour hair?I never said that.

Art...if you asked Hamas what they want the Israelis to do in order to make thier job easier as a terrorist organisation they would say "collective punishment please"There are collective punishments that would make their job easier, and collective punishments that would make it harder. It's a fallacy to say that all collective punishment is bad because some is. In fact, that's rather similar to saying that all Palestinians are bad because some are. Which you claim to be against.

The Fool

21st January 2006, 08:20 PM

Did you complain to your local police about not being allowed to go to the beach during your little troubles recently? Sure sounds like collective punishment to me.
There was no restriction on who could go to any beaches...are you uninformed or making this up for a reason?

The Fool

21st January 2006, 08:26 PM

Don't play games with me. I asked a question. Do you have an answer, or just a bunch of rhetorical questions?

It is stupid and illogical for the same reason that my example is stupid and illogical. I figure it would be better for you to work this out with rhetorical questions rather than simply stating that it is stupid to punish the innocent for the actions of the guilty....but you don't seem to agree with that obvious fact.....

Maybe I should ask for collective punishment to be initiated at jref...if Americans break the rules we could send a clear message by suspending all americans from the forum....sound like a good Idea?

The Fool

21st January 2006, 08:28 PM

I never said that.

you are right....you don't think that people of the same hair colour should be punished just people of the same ethnicity? Why not use hair color? Its as good a system for collective punishment as any other isn't it?

The Fool

21st January 2006, 08:33 PM

So why do you think these terrorists aren't arrested or killed?
I think they are arrested and killed....The Idf does its best in the circumstances it faces...as does the PA. Nadir just likes to display these photographs when he repeats his standard chants about the PA not arresting them.. lets give ZN a pistol and club....he could have Gaza cleaned out in a week ...its that easy...

webfusion

21st January 2006, 08:53 PM

Maybe I should ask for collective punishment to be initiated at jref...if Americans break the rules we could send a clear message by suspending all americans from the forum....sound like a good Idea?

If the JREF forums were attacked by a malicious Denial of Service bot or spammed or hacked, then I am sure the administrators would indeed try to block the IP and domain from which said intrusion/disruption originated.

It happens a lot, actually, on the internet, that entire domains are blocked due to "abuse" --- I remember one particular week when the "netvision.il" domain was blocked for some spam abuse and I couldn't send any mail to aol.

Nevertheless, this thread is not about collective punishment, and I fail to see why you brought it into the discussion in the first place, TF.

When you said that the Israelis suspended funding to Palestinian clinics, I asked for proof. You did not provide it.
When you asked "what nation" would have to pay the price for terrorist acts of HAMAS, I referred you to my OP -- IRAN and SYRIA are in the crosshairs right now.
When you hint that Israel needs to reduce the Gaza Strip to rubble, or else it's not doing its job, I have to laugh, because of all the things the IDF is able to undertake right now, (and making the Gaza Strip uninhabited is well within their capabilities), nobody (except The Fool) is suggesting they engage on that extreme level.

The Fool, you have a short memory.
I was saying a while back that the IDF would launch artillery into the Strip, and you poo-poo'd that prediction, saying I was being a 'chickenhawk' and 'chest thumping' ---- yet the IDF did exactly that, and created a no-go zone that is being enforced right now.
I am saying here, in this thread, that the IDf will go after the sources of terror and strike at IRAN and SYRIA, to send a clear message that we will not tolerate their stirring-up islamic maniacs in the PA to suicide-bomb and threaten our cities.

The issue of collective punishment has no bearing on this topic. So drop it.

Elind

21st January 2006, 09:11 PM

There was no restriction on who could go to any beaches...are you uninformed or making this up for a reason?

There was in the news reports I read, at least to the extent of telling people not to go. The point is, as is obvious to most here, that there can be circumstances where what you call collective punishment is actually collective suffering as a direct result of some who want it that way. Now, can you figure out who it is that actually wants it that way?

The Fool

21st January 2006, 10:04 PM

There was in the news reports I read, at least to the extent of telling people not to go. The point is, as is obvious to most here, that there can be circumstances where what you call collective punishment is actually collective suffering as a direct result of some who want it that way. Now, can you figure out who it is that actually wants it that way?

There was a restriction on going to beaches at least to the extent of there being no restriction....

I can tell you who wants collective suffering of all palestinians....terrorist groups. Can you figure out who is giving them what they want?

Art Vandelay

21st January 2006, 10:15 PM

It is stupid and illogical for the same reason that my example is stupid and illogical. s I ALREADY POINTED OUT, criticizing one form of collective punishment on the basis of another makes no sense (and is rather similar to the very thing which you claim to oppose). Now, do you have a reason why all collective punishment is stupid?

Maybe I should ask for collective punishment to be initiated at jref...if Americans break the rules we could send a clear message by suspending all americans from the forum....sound like a good Idea?In your hypothetical, is the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT breaking the rules?

The Fool

21st January 2006, 10:46 PM

In your hypothetical, is the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT breaking the rules?
No...small bands of sneaky americans have formed secret societies within jref dedicated to breaking the posting rules...whenever one of them breaks the rules we will suspend all americans from the board for a week...this will send a clear message to americans that we will not tolerate thier behavior....sound fair? sound logical?

Freakshow

21st January 2006, 11:20 PM

No...small bands of sneaky americans have formed secret societies within jref dedicated to breaking the posting rules...whenever one of them breaks the rules we will suspend all americans from the board for a week...this will send a clear message to americans that we will not tolerate thier behavior....sound fair? sound logical?A more accurate analogy would be this...

A particular ISP has customers that are constantly launching attacks against the JREF website. JREF notifies the ISP about this. The ISP does nothing about it. JREF asks them again. The ISP still does nothing. So the JREF just blocks all IP's from that ISP.

Makes sense to me. As Webfusion pointed out, practices like this are common.

The Fool

21st January 2006, 11:42 PM

Mycroft

21st January 2006, 11:54 PM

A more accurate analogy would be this...

A particular ISP has customers that are constantly launching attacks against the JREF website. JREF notifies the ISP about this. The ISP does nothing about it. JREF asks them again. The ISP still does nothing. So the JREF just blocks all IP's from that ISP.

Makes sense to me. As Webfusion pointed out, practices like this are common.

An even more accurate analogy:

JREF pays for an ISP which many people use for free. Customers abuse this ISP by using it to launch attacks against the JREF. Not only does the JREF block this ISP, but it stops paying for it as well.

You see, what I initially suggested, what the Fool dishonestly conflated into "collective punishment" was that the Palestinian Authority should have it's aid cut off if it failed to live up to its obligations.

You don’t punish them for the actions of Hamas; you just tie their aid to their efforts to arrest militants. If there are no efforts, then there is no aid. If there are efforts, but there are still terrorist attacks, then there is aid, but there are also discussions on what problems need to be solved in order to make efforts to bring in terrorists more successful. Future aid is dependent on how successful those efforts are.

The real problem isn’t “collective punishment” as the Fool claims; he’s just against any measure of accountability being applied to the Palestinian Authority under any circumstances. Ever.

Mycroft

22nd January 2006, 12:04 AM

Have you heard of things called foreign policy initiatives, like withdrawing clandestine support for the dictator and transferring that support to internal rivals interested in democracy? Have you heard of things called sanctions? Have you heard of.....oh whats the point. George wanted to Invade Iraq....so all these alternatives to invasion which were perfectly propper up until George wanted to invade Iraq suddenly became silly and Invasion became the only option.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=921028#post921028

Whoa, dude! It looks like back in February you supported the collective punishment of Iraqis! You beast! You monster! You evil, hypocrite! You two-faced liar!!!!

Mycroft

22nd January 2006, 12:12 AM

Unfortunately, I really see no real prospect of Israel voluntarily allowing a Palestinian state. I really hope I'm wrong but, in the end, outside intervention and/or sanctions may be required.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1090601#post1090601

Wow, again you support collective punishments, only this time against Israel.

The Fool

22nd January 2006, 12:29 AM

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1090601#post1090601

Wow, again you support collective punishments, only this time against Israel.
Lol...

was I calling for sanctions against Israel due to the actions of nutjob settlers?
I'm not sure if you really understand the difference...but the word "sanctions" in a post of mine seems to have got you all excited.

Are you honestly trying to tell me you don't know the difference between sanctions against a government for action of that government and sanctions against a population for actions of a minority group within that population....do you need some time to go over it again?

I notice that you have rearranged what you stated earlier. You are now claiming you are only talking about ecenomic sanctions linked to your belief that the pa is doing nothing to counter Hamas.....earlier on you were saying sanctions should be applied in response to things like weapon smuggling. I guess your earlier thoughts will be rapidly forgotten......

anyway mycroft...you are going to be suspended due to the actions of a couple of other americans on this forum....Its the only fair and logical way...shifty lot you americans.....

Mycroft

22nd January 2006, 12:41 AM

Lol...
Are you honestly trying to tell me you don't know the difference between sanctions against a government for action of that government and sanctions against a population for actions of a minority group within that population....do you need some time to go over it again?

I’m just applying your own standards. If withdrawal of funding to the PA for promoting terror, or sanctions for the PA smuggling weapons is “collective punishment” then so are the sanctions you spoke about.

I notice that you have rearranged what you stated earlier. You are now claiming you are only talking about ecenomic sanctions linked to your belief that the pa is doing nothing to counter Hamas.....earlier on you were saying sanctions should be applied in response to things like weapon smuggling. I guess your earlier thoughts will be rapidly forgotten......

Actually, I cited promoting terror (by paying pensions to families of suicide bombers) and by smuggling weapons as examples of things that should get funding pulled or sanctions imposed.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1393361#post1393361

Nowhere in the world, by the way, is the withdrawal of funding or the imposition of sanctions considered “collective punishment.”

Edited to add:

Withdrawal of funding means withdrawal of funding from the Palestinian Authority. Sanctions also, would be applied against the Palestinian Authority. From the beginning, I was always talking about actions against that government (the Palestinian Authority) for actions (or lack of actions) by that government.

The Fool

22nd January 2006, 01:05 AM

I’m just applying your own standards. If withdrawal of funding to the PA for promoting terror, or sanctions for the PA smuggling weapons is “collective punishment” then so are the sanctions you spoke about.
One is sanctions against a soveriegn nation for the actions of the government. The other is sanctions against a stateless population in response to terrorist actions by some of the population....you really can't see the difference?

Actually, I cited promoting terror (by paying pensions to families of suicide bombers) and by smuggling weapons as examples of things that should get funding pulled or sanctions imposed.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1393361#post1393361

Nowhere in the world, by the way, is the withdrawal of funding or the imposition of sanctions considered “collective punishment.”
Mycroft...If we were discussing the nation of palestine and the actions of that nations government things would be a lot different....It is true that economic action have not been used as collective punishment against the stateless people of the middle east...which is why I am arguing against the people who are advocating it...Hamas should send thank you cards to anyone who does.

Mycroft

22nd January 2006, 01:23 AM

One is sanctions against a soveriegn nation for the actions of the government. The other is sanctions against a stateless population in response to terrorist actions by some of the population....you really can't see the difference?

Hmmm…Let’s parse what I actually said:

We need to hold them responsible when they do things that encourage terror.

Who am I talking about? Who is “them”? Is it a stateless population?

When they give pensions to the families of suicide bombers, we pull their funding. When they’re caught smuggling ship loads of weapons, they get economic sanctions.

No! It’s the guys giving the pensions! That must be the Palestinian Authority!! Who are we holding responsible? Not the stateless population, but the Palestinian Authority that’s supposed to represent them.

Is it, as you say, in response to terrorist actions by some of the population? No! I said it was in response to the Palestinian Authority encouraging terrorism, the Palestinian Authority smuggling weapons, the Palestinian Authority that refuses to take even the smallest action that might discourage a terrorist.

So for starters, the difference you describe doesn’t exist. I’m talking about the government (such as it is) of the Palestinian people.

Second, no, I don’t particularly see a difference between sanctions against a sovereign nation and sanctions against a “stateless people.” If your standard for calling it “collective punishment” is that some innocent civilians might suffer, then that’s just as true for the sanctions against Iraq or Israel. There is no practical or moral difference.

The Fool

22nd January 2006, 02:51 AM

Hmmm…Let’s parse what I actually said:

We need to hold them responsible when they do things that encourage terror.

Who am I talking about? Who is “them”? Is it a stateless population?

When they give pensions to the families of suicide bombers, we pull their funding. When they’re caught smuggling ship loads of weapons, they get economic sanctions.

No! It’s the guys giving the pensions! That must be the Palestinian Authority!! Who are we holding responsible? Not the stateless population, but the Palestinian Authority that’s supposed to represent them.

Is it, as you say, in response to terrorist actions by some of the population? No! I said it was in response to the Palestinian Authority encouraging terrorism, the Palestinian Authority smuggling weapons, the Palestinian Authority that refuses to take even the smallest action that might discourage a terrorist.

So for starters, the difference you describe doesn’t exist. I’m talking about the government (such as it is) of the Palestinian people.

Second, no, I don’t particularly see a difference between sanctions against a sovereign nation and sanctions against a “stateless people.” If your standard for calling it “collective punishment” is that some innocent civilians might suffer, then that’s just as true for the sanctions against Iraq or Israel. There is no practical or moral difference.

sigh..
what you said was a reply to my question

What should "holding the Palestinians accountable" Involve?

Your answers all refered to "they" "them" and "thier" no mention of the PA at all in either my question or your answer.....the question was about "the palestinians" your response, I can only assume, refers to the question? Is it fair to assume you are answering the posed question or should I assume you are answering something else?

I guess your answers simply refer to whoever its most conveniently to decide (in the future) who they were refering to...

Maybe I should get a psycic in to tell me who your answers will eventually refer to?

zenith-nadir

22nd January 2006, 05:26 AM

ZN shows pictures of Hamas marching the streets and asks why the PA does not arrest them....why doesn't the IDF arrest them? Not interested?Hamas is a designated foreign terror organization recognized as such by Canada, the USA, the EU and Israel. It is also a palestinian terror organization and therefore the responsibility for stopping it from terrorizing innocent people lies with the Palestinians. There is no excuse after 9-11 to allow a known designated foreign terror organization to operate with impunity from one's soil. It is even more horrific that said designated foreign terror organization is running for office in the current Palestinian elections. IMHO terror organizations - who openly seek the destruction of the state of Israel and have a long track record of murdering men, women and children - should not be allowed to participate in the Palestinian elections. It is explicitly stated that terror organizations may not participate in Palestinian elections in the OSLO Accords.

Arresting terrorists would damage Israels international reputation? Lol..... Come on...get moving, they are terrorists. ZN has pictures of them wandering in the open...wtf is the IDF doing? They must be in league with them.....Your sarcasm does not absolve the fact that over the past 13 years the Palestinian Authority has had an obligation to disarm and disband the known terror organizations per:

Israel-PLO Recognition, September 9-10, 1993
Israel-Palestinian Declaration of Principles, (Oslo 1) September 13, 1993
Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, May 4, 1994
Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities (Israel-PLO), August 29, 1994
Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, September 28, 1995
Protocol Concerning the Redeployment in Hebron, January 17, 1997
The Wye River Plantation Agreement (1998)
The Sharm el Sheikh Agreement (1999)
Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan) June 15 2001
The Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 2003

Yet to this very day as I type this post known terrorist organizations operate freely from areas under full Palestinian Authority control.

Nadir just likes to display these photographs when he repeats his standard chants about the PA not arresting them.. lets give ZN a pistol and club....he could have Gaza cleaned out in a week ...its that easy...Once again your sarcasm in no way absolves the Palestinian Authority's obligations under:

Israel-PLO Recognition, September 9-10, 1993
Israel-Palestinian Declaration of Principles, (Oslo 1) September 13, 1993
Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, May 4, 1994
Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities (Israel-PLO), August 29, 1994
Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, September 28, 1995
Protocol Concerning the Redeployment in Hebron, January 17, 1997
The Wye River Plantation Agreement (1998)
The Sharm el Sheikh Agreement (1999)
Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan) June 15 2001
The Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 2003

...to disarm and disband the known terror organizations operating from areas under Palestinian Authority control - such as Gaza.

Progress in the peace process requires a Palestinian effort to dismantle the known Palestinian terror organizations, and the refusal in confronting that principal obligation under several internationally-brokered peace agreements only emboldens the opponents of peace and threatens the realization of a Palestinian state.

zenith-nadir

22nd January 2006, 05:31 AM

Just for the fool:

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060121/capt.jrl13301211621.mideast_israel_palestinians_el ections_jrl133.jpg

A Palestinian supporter of Islamic Hamas holds a machine gun as she and others chant slogans at a rally supporting candidates in upcoming elections in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah, Saturday, Jan. 21, 2006. (AP Photo/Khalil Hamra)

Hamas + old women with AK47s = democracy Palestinian style!

webfusion

22nd January 2006, 07:07 AM

I had to go back to the original post here which started this derail exchange about Israel taking 'collective actions against palestinians in response to Hamas sending suicide bombers' (paraphrasing TF) ----

Here is what TF says: (when I indicated that bombing the nuclear facilities in Iran is an appropriate response to Iran sending suicide bombers to Tel Aviv) --
web, you are not personally responsible (for the IDF performing such a targeted mission)...no more than the palestinian in the street chanting slogans is responsible.

That is what TF is driving at, or else I'm completely off the mark.

He is equating my support for the actions of the IDF, retaliating and going after organizations & states who sponsor terror (Iran and Syria, IIRC) with the average palestinian's support of actions of the Hamas /Islamic Jihad / Martyrs Brigades, etc to perpetrate and commit wanton acts of terror.

It is an insiduous comparison. Here is what this says: "Israel is a terrorist nation, for what it does to the Palestinians." That is the line -- from Orwell, Demon, Cleon, TF, a_u_p and others... I reject that categorically, I think it is a total mischaracterization of the entire situation and places blame on Israel for defending itself.

I'll even go one step further, as a matter of prediction, that the day Israel raids and destroys the nuclear enrichment facilities at Natanz and Isfahan, the very first words out of the mouths of the apologists for terror will be:
Israel is a TERROR STATE -- this horrendous act is Jewish terror !!!!!

Now, let's return to TF's main question:
What should "holding the Palestinians accountable" Involve?

It has been answered in great detail here.
I even went so far as to say that the Iranians and Syrians should be held accountable as well for the actions of palestinian terror groups that they directly sponsor and influence.

TF, you threw out this 'example' of Israel imposing punishment on the Palestinans:How about removing the funding for a medical clinic in the town where the imam preaches hate....good Idea? (http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showpost.php?p=1394708&postcount=33) --- TF, where is your evidence for such a statement or is this just a total strawman? Why have you refused to comment on that? Your lack of comment is obvious to everyone, since I have called you on this three times already...

One last thing,
The terrorism being perpetrated against Israel and elsewhere in the world is not a criminal enterprise. TF made that analogy, which is dead wrong. Lots of what he has been saying here is dead wrong, I've noticed.

==================================
Here is the breaking news from Gaza --
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/673384.html
IAF strikes at car in Zeitoun neighborhood.
The occupants of that vehicle were held directly and personally responsible for being terrorists. The PA Police should have stopped and arrested them at a roadblock, as wanted terrorists. Since they did not, the Israelis chose to take matters into another realm --- see ya.

22nd January 2006, 07:17 AM

How many people have been arrested by the Palistinians as terrorists or being complicit on murder? Any figures?

webfusion

22nd January 2006, 07:22 AM

Quick check on google to reference the Australian gang-violence and subsequent beach-closings back in December --

Blog Post by: John C. at December 18, 2005 10:21 AM

My personal read is that there is a problem with teenage gang activity. It's happened at a couple of different beach suburbs. Most gang members live a long way from the coast and Cronulla, the only beach area with good public transport, has historically been the place where 'Westies' (kids from the inland suburbs west of the city centre) and 'surfies' encounter each other.

Some of those encounters turned violent, The police took quick and effective action at Bondi and the problem stopped. The police did very little at Cronulla and the level of violence escalated.

The post from John C in Australia goes on to say --
"The weekend was quiet and the most notable development of the past week has been joint meetings and appeals by community groups from both sides denouncing both the riot and the revenge attacks which followed. The NSW parliament passed some egregiously invasive laws of the kind that seem to be de rigeur in the GWOT. It's hard to say whether the community effort or a massive police presence under the new laws is keeping things quiet at the moment."

What laws are those? I'm not sure... but maybe TF can fill us in, if he knows?

/derail

webfusion

22nd January 2006, 07:23 AM

Ed --- 9 ;)

22nd January 2006, 07:28 AM

Ed --- 9 ;)

Look, the simplist way of telling whether a government is supportive of a behavior is to determine the sanctions that are in place against it. In the US, for all of the crap spouted by Bush, the government was in favor of having, for all intents and purposes, and open southern border. I don't care what they say, I simply look at what they do.

If people are not being locked up then, ipso facto, the government of palistine is in favor of their activities, to wit: murder.

It does not appear to me to be wiggleable in the least.

And for Christs sake, if the damn jews can find them it seems to me that it is entirely within the capabilities of the palistinians.

Freakshow

22nd January 2006, 09:13 AM

Just for the fool:

Hamas + old women with AK47s = democracy Palestinian style!I don't know about The Fool, but where I live, if you show up to a political rally with a machine gun, you will be arrested very quickly. If you resist, you will be killed.

So obviously the PA is okay with people showing up to political rallies with machine guns. If they aren't okay with it, then why aren't they doing anything about it?

Mycroft

22nd January 2006, 09:35 AM

sigh..
what you said was a reply to my question
What should "holding the Palestinians accountable" Involve?

Your answers all refered to "they" "them" and "thier" no mention of the PA at all in either my question or your answer....

Except that it's the Palestinian Authority that gets funding, so they're the ones who can have funding removed. Further, they're the only ones that can have sanctions leveled against them, you can't put sanctions against individual people.

Further, if we parse other paragraphs in my post:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1393361#post1393361

We stop making excuses for why they can’t be expected to do things such as arresting terror suspects,

Who would arrest terror suspects? Individual Palestinians or the Palestinian Authority?

...ending hate speech from their government run Mosques, ...

Who would end hate speech from their government run Mosques? Individual Palestinian or the Palestinian Authority?

...changing the curriculum in their UNRWA run schools, etc. and start looking for solutions, finding ways they can do these things.

Who's responsible for school curriculums? Individual Palestinians or government? When you look for solutions, do you deal with people on an individual level, or a governmental level?

There was no confusion about what I meant, at least no rational confusion. You're just desperate to argue against anything that hints at looking at the Palestinian side of the equation

Further, it doesn’t matter anyway. Your “collective punishment” nonsense has been exposed as a lie. There is no practical or moral difference between sanctions against a sovereign nation and sanctions against a “stateless people.” If your standard for calling it “collective punishment” is that some innocent civilians might suffer, then that’s just as true for the sanctions against Iraq or Israel that you spoke in support of.You are a hypocrite.

The Fool

22nd January 2006, 01:51 PM

TF, you threw out this 'example' of Israel imposing punishment on the Palestinans:How about removing the funding for a medical clinic in the town where the imam preaches hate....good Idea? (http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showpost.php?p=1394708&postcount=33) --- TF, where is your evidence for such a statement or is this just a total strawman? Why have you refused to comment on that? Your lack of comment is obvious to everyone, since I have called you on this three times already...

its just a response for the usual suspects who were getting all horny about collective punishment, Mycroft wants to add economic sanctions too....so this was simply a question regarding the value of such a smart idea....Do you think it would be a good idea web?

webfusion

22nd January 2006, 01:53 PM

Do you think it would be a good idea web?

No.

The Fool

22nd January 2006, 01:55 PM

I don't know about The Fool, but where I live, if you show up to a political rally with a machine gun, you will be arrested very quickly. If you resist, you will be killed.

So obviously the PA is okay with people showing up to political rallies with machine guns. If they aren't okay with it, then why aren't they doing anything about it?
why are the IDF ignoring it? They are the army of occupation, they are the controlling power.....it is apparently so damn easy to eradicate hamas its just that the PA with a handfull of small arms and clubs can't be bothered....maybe the idf can't be bothered either?

webfusion

22nd January 2006, 02:04 PM

why are the IDF ignoring it?

The IDF is not ignoring it.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/673384.html
Israel Air Force aircraft fired missiles at a car in the Gaza Strip on Sunday afternoon in a strike on Palestinian militants, killing one of them and wounding six others.

By the way, Iran just announced that the Israeli intention to attack their nuclear enrichment sites would be a "fatal mistake" and that the recent threatening comments from Israeli Defense Minister Mofaz are "childish" ----

Oh well, Iran has a few weeks left to complete a diplomatic solution.

Art Vandelay

22nd January 2006, 04:45 PM

Are you honestly trying to tell me you don't know the difference between sanctions against a government for action of that government and sanctions against a population for actions of a minority group within that population....do you need some time to go over it again?Just a little while ago, you were presenting a completely different case of collective punishment and implying that all cases of collective punishment are the same and must all be the okay or none be okay. Now you're saying that some are okay and some aren't. So which is it? And if it is the latter, how can we tell the difference?

Elind

22nd January 2006, 05:15 PM

I can tell you who wants collective suffering of all palestinians....terrorist groups. Can you figure out who is giving them what they want?

Actually no; at least no in the context of this cryptic question. You have my attention. Who?

a_unique_person

22nd January 2006, 06:18 PM

Look, the simplist way of telling whether a government is supportive of a behavior is to determine the sanctions that are in place against it. In the US, for all of the crap spouted by Bush, the government was in favor of having, for all intents and purposes, and open southern border. I don't care what they say, I simply look at what they do.

If people are not being locked up then, ipso facto, the government of palistine is in favor of their activities, to wit: murder.

False dilemma.

22nd January 2006, 06:26 PM

False dilemma.

Not at all.

They have it in their power to arrest.
They don't arrest.
They are in in favor of the activity or at least neutral to it since there are no consequences.

Can you give me another interpretation?

The Fool

22nd January 2006, 06:41 PM

Just a little while ago, you were presenting a completely different case of collective punishment and implying that all cases of collective punishment are the same and must all be the okay or none be okay. Now you're saying that some are okay and some aren't. So which is it? And if it is the latter, how can we tell the difference?
Sorry Art, I never have been able to figure out how you decide these things. If thats what you think you see then so be it...

webfusion

22nd January 2006, 06:42 PM

Elind asks: "Who?"

The Fool has already indicated that it is the Israelis (http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showpost.php?p=1395971&postcount=67), by their reaction and retaliations and any other things that they do against the Palestinians.

And we have already established that this premise of The Fool is incorrect.
The terrorists act to kill jews, plain and simple.
Full Stop.

see my post #50 (http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showpost.php?p=1395000&postcount=50) here

I see no evidence that Hamas is interested in trying to get the Israelis to impose collective punishments, and in fact, the Palestinians aren't being collectively punished, but you are welcome to show evidence of that if you believe it is indeed happening.
The thread has gone off in that direction, so take it ahead, TF, we're talking about January 2006 and what collective punishments are the Israelis throwing at the Palestinians now that you can point to Hamas being thrilled about?

We wait for your reply...

The Fool

22nd January 2006, 06:54 PM

Not at all.

They have it in their power to arrest.
They don't arrest.
They are in in favor of the activity or at least neutral to it since there are no consequences.

Can you give me another interpretation?

Ed....could you eliminate Hamas, or at least control them please? I'll even give you "powers of arrest". If you don't succeed in sorting out Hamas I'll assume you are in favor of what they do...

To me....having failed to counter the things that make Hamas thrive we need to find someone to blame for thier power...how about the PA?

In thier current state the PA have as much chance of controlling Hamas as the boyscouts of america. Do you think it is likely they will pick a fight with Hamas when they would get the arse kicking of a lifetime? I don't envy the PA...they do not want a civil war that they would lose and see nutjob islamists take over....Is that what Israel and the US want?

Who would you prefer to win what will surely be an inevitable civil war in Palestine...Islamists nutjobs or secular pragmatists?

The Fool

22nd January 2006, 06:57 PM

I see no evidence that Hamas is interested in trying to get the Israelis to impose collective punishments, and in fact, the Palestinians aren't being collectively punished, but you are welcome to show evidence of that if you believe it is indeed happening.
The thread has gone off in that direction, so take it ahead, TF, we're talking about January 2006 and what collective punishments are the Israelis throwing at the Palestinians now that you can point to Hamas being thrilled about?

We wait for your reply...
well gee web has it got down to you denying the existence of collective punishment completely?

google the words collective punishment, no doubt you will disagree with what you read so that means what you read doesn't exist.

webfusion

22nd January 2006, 07:04 PM

The PA is not controlling the streets because it is perfectly satisfied with the way things are, TF.

It does not enter the mind of Abu Mazen to look at Hamas as an organization to stop and disarm. He is going to sit in the government with them next month, and they will all participate in continued terror, one big happy bunch of jihadists, just as they always have been.

That is the reality. There is no threat of civil war, because there is no difference between the ideology of Fatah and the ideology of Hamas and the ideology of Islamic Jihad and the ideology of Iran and the ideology of Syria.
the only difference between them is the degree of violence that they are willing to perpetrate against Israel in the short term, and the degree of violence they are willing to wreak upon Israel in the long term.

(see: Arafat's Plan of Stages, 1974)
http://www.jafi.org.il/agenda/2001/english/wk3-11/2.asp

The Fool

22nd January 2006, 07:08 PM

a_unique_person

22nd January 2006, 07:16 PM

webfusion

22nd January 2006, 07:20 PM

All proceeding under the same delusions & all maintaining the claim that Israel is a target to be destroyed. In that, yes, they are all the same.

===========================

Yes, I am denying that Israel engages in collective punishments.
I know that you will quickly jump in with Randa Siniora and al_Haq, but that's to be expected from you, TF.

==========================

How about this for a derail:

Syrian President demands that Israel should be investigated for the murder of Yasser Arafat.

webfusion

22nd January 2006, 07:22 PM

a_u_p asks: "Is there crime in the US? "

Not as far as I know.
What evidence do you have that there is?
And how does your question relate to the OP, a_u_p?

The Fool

22nd January 2006, 08:13 PM

Yes, I am denying that Israel engages in collective punishments.
b]
well this little jem ends my participation in this discussion.

a_unique_person

22nd January 2006, 09:28 PM

a_u_p asks: "Is there crime in the US? "

Not as far as I know.
What evidence do you have that there is?
And how does your question relate to the OP, a_u_p?

All I am doing is pointing out that Ed is creating a logical fallacy. There are more than the two alternatives he has given to explain what is happening.

Mycroft

22nd January 2006, 10:31 PM

Ed....could you eliminate Hamas, or at least control them please? I'll even give you "powers of arrest". If you don't succeed in sorting out Hamas I'll assume you are in favor of what they do...

You've been called on this straw-man dozens of times, yet you still bring it up. The issue isn't that they don't succeed in "sorting out" Hamas, it's that they don't do anyting at all about Hamas.

In thier current state the PA have as much chance of controlling Hamas as the boyscouts of america. Do you think it is likely they will pick a fight with Hamas when they would get the arse kicking of a lifetime?

Where is your evidence for this?

Mycroft

22nd January 2006, 10:40 PM

All I am doing is pointing out that Ed is creating a logical fallacy. There are more than the two alternatives he has given to explain what is happening.

There is no fallacy in pointing out that motives are revealed by actions.

webfusion

23rd January 2006, 04:36 AM

TF is so speechless, he has to leave...
"well this little jem ends my participation in this discussion."

What participation?

By the way, today's news headlines:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/673731.html
The Israeli military will refrain from operations against Palestinian
gunmen through Wednesday's Palestinian parliamentary elections, except to stop militants who pose immediate threats, military sources said Monday.

IDF troops will stay away from Palestinian towns in the West Bank for the next three days to avoid interfering in the Jan. 25 Palestinian elections

Unprecedented.
I wonder if this will cost Israeli lives?
I hope not...

23rd January 2006, 05:38 AM

Is there crime in the US?

The US police forces have the power to arrest, yet there is still crime and criminals out there.

That is straw.

The fact is that if you light a joint on the street of NY you won't get arrested. There are laws against it. What it says is that the government in NY allows it.

Are you serious suggesting that the PA activly persues killers and terrorists?

webfusion

23rd January 2006, 10:49 AM

ed asks this of a_u_p:
Are you serious suggesting that the PA activly pursues killers and terrorists?
He wouldn't dare sugest such a thing, because he knows it ain't so.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/673461.html
Israeli Chief of General Staff indicates that Hamas-Fatah violence will increase in the next few weeks, after Hamas wins some representation in the elections.

Meanwhile, in the West Bank, soldiers arrested Hussein Jaradat, a senior Islamic Jihad operative who is thought to have been involved in several suicide bombings inside Israel over the past year.

That's right, Israel arrested him. They knew who he was, and how to locate him, and just walked up to his house and got him.
Simple.

a_unique_person

23rd January 2006, 03:14 PM

That is straw.

The fact is that if you light a joint on the street of NY you won't get arrested. There are laws against it. What it says is that the government in NY allows it.

Are you serious suggesting that the PA activly persues killers and terrorists?

I am seriously suggesting there are more alternatives than the two you have given. False dichotomy.

a_unique_person

23rd January 2006, 03:15 PM

ed asks this of a_u_p:

He wouldn't dare sugest such a thing, because he knows it ain't so.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/673461.html
Israeli Chief of General Staff indicates that Hamas-Fatah violence will increase in the next few weeks, after Hamas wins some representation in the elections.
Meanwhile, in the West Bank, soldiers arrested Hussein Jaradat, a senior Islamic Jihad operative who is thought to have been involved in several suicide bombings inside Israel over the past year.

That's right, Israel arrested him. They knew who he was, and how to locate him, and just walked up to his house and got him.
Simple.

It is not a matter 'daring' at all.

Mycroft

23rd January 2006, 03:34 PM

It is not a matter 'daring' at all.

It doesn't need to be "daring" to put the lie to your claim that the Palestinian Authority pursued terrorists in the same way NYC police officers pursue criminals.

webfusion

23rd January 2006, 05:21 PM

Just in the last few hours, the IDF made some more routine roundups of wanted men, arresting 24 Palestinian fugitives overnight, including gunmen from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad groups, a military spokesperson said.

It's so simple, really.
Israel wants to stop the terrorism.
The PA does not.

Proof: read this interview with Marwan Barghouti, now sitting in an Israeli prison serving five life sentences after being convicted of five terror-related murders (and a strong front-runner for election in the PA)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/673460.html

He said there is no peace process and called the "armed struggle" necessary for the sake of achieving a Palestinian state and other rights
=========================

Meanwhile, back to the OP:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=condaleeza+rice&itemNo=673864
US Secretary of State Rice says that the time for talking to Iran "is over" and all discussions are at a "dead end".

kimiko

24th January 2006, 02:18 AM

Webfusion- Didn't see anything wrong with Z-N's comment, but my rebuttal gets a patronizing response? Interesting.

Kimiko,

Would you consider yourself sympathetic to (or a member of) Aztlan or MEChA?That kind of questioning is completely inappropriate for this section of the forum.

a_unique_person

24th January 2006, 02:30 AM

Webfusion- Didn't see anything wrong with Z-N's comment, but my rebuttal gets a patronizing response? Interesting.

That kind of questioning is completely inappropriate for this section of the forum.

Yep, playing the man, and not the ball.

webfusion

24th January 2006, 04:58 AM

While you slept, the IDf made another round of major arrests.

Israel Defense Forces troops arrested eight (more) wanted Palestinians in a series of predawn raids in the West Bank on Tuesday.
The arrested included several senior militants, including Abdallah Arrar, a Hamas militant suspected of masterminding the abduction and murder of Israeli Sasson Nuriel in 2005.
Mahmoud Abu Rob, the Islamic Jihad commander in the southern Jenin area, was also arrested Tuesday.

Israel jails are filling-up with these guys. Palestinian jails are not.

=====================================

The time is ripe...
Mohammed-Nabi Rudaki, deputy chairman of the Iranian parliament's National Security and Foreign Policy Commission, today threatened closing off the Gulf to all international shipping, which would be tantamount to declaring war upon the United States and allies.

Stay tuned...

====================================

kimiko, if you had made anything resembling a coherent comment regarding the OP, no patronizing of you would have been necessary. As it stands, you chose to post another one of those incorrectly-based "American Indian = Palestinians" comparisons.
I had no issue with Zenith-Nadir offered a side-remark about the lack of Israel appearing on some maps, since it was tengenital to the main point, which is that IRAN and SYRIA are huge supporters of anti-Israel efforts at many levels.

And I believe (with plenty of things leading to my belief) that Iran is going to get whacked --- Deservedly so.

Do you have anything to say about that, kimiko? Go right ahead.
Play the ball. It's in your court.

zenith-nadir

24th January 2006, 06:00 AM

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060124/capt.jrl10901241313.mideast_israel_palestinians_el ections_jrl109.jpg

Masked Palestinian gunmen of various factions participate in a joint press conference in Gaza City Tuesday Jan. 24, 2006. (AP Photo/Emilio Morenatti)"Masked Palestinian gunmen of various factions" hold press conferences in Gaza instead of being arrested. So what was the press conference about?

Jan 24, '06 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=97219)

The Al-Aksa Brigades, the military wing of the Fatah party, has called for continuing the armed struggle to “liberate all of Palestine.”

A speaker for Islamic Jihad echoed the Brigades’ call to liberate all Israeli territory, and effectively eliminate the Jewish state. “We stand here today on the just road of struggle until the liberation of the last inch of Palestine,” he said. Sounds like Abbas's endlessly-repeated one-authority one-gun pledge isn't working too well. ;)

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D240106/248palest240106ap2.jpg

Palestinian boys dressed as militants taking center stage during a Hamas rally in Gaza on Mon. (AP)What kind of sick and twisted political party dresses up small children with guns, grenades and military fatigues and parades them at political rallies?

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/nm/20060124/2006_01_23t121751_450x318_us_mideast.jpg

Masked Palestinian militants attend the ruling Fatah movement pre-election rally in the West Bank city of Hebron January 23, 2006. (Loay Abu Haykel/Reuters)Even the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority allows masked gunmen to participate at their political rallies.

January 24, 2006 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060124/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_fatah_killing_2)

NABLUS, West Bank - A leader of the ruling Fatah Party in Nablus was shot to death Tuesday in violence related to the Palestinian elections.

Early this month, a Hamas supporter was killed in a firefight that erupted while rival factions were hanging election posters in Gaza City. Hamas blamed the ruling Fatah Party.

Nine gunmen, also affiliated with Fatah, drove two cars up to the house of Abu Ahmed Hassouna, 44, around 1:30 a.m. and began firing at posters of election candidates on his house, relatives said. When Hassouna leaned out a window and shouted at them to stop, they shot him in the head, his family said.

But the scope of this madness is not contained in Gaza or the West Bank it reaches into Syria and Iran.

Jan. 22, 2006 4:07 (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1137605885135&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Assad: Israel is behind Arafat's death

Deflecting increasing criticism for his administration's role in the assassination of former Lebaneese prime minister Rafik Hariri, Syrian President Bashar Assad claimed Saturday that Israel was responsible for the death of Palestinian Authority Chairman Yassir Arafat.

"Among the many assassinations that Israel has carried out in a systemic and organized manner, the most dangerous one was the assassination of Arafat," Assad said, addressing a conference of Arab lawyers.

Jan. 24, 2006 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060124/wl_mideast_afp/iranpoliticsisrael_060124130836)

TEHRAN (AFP) -Iran defended its plan to stage a conference questioning the Holocaust and accused British Prime Minister Tony Blair of "intolerance" for criticising the event.

The foreign ministry unveiled plans for the conference last week, a month after hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinjead described the systematic slaughter of an estimated six million Jews during World War II as a "myth".

This is the entire point a_u_p and the fool. What will the new Palestinian leadership will look like? Will it be Hamas - who does not recognize Israel's right to exist - happily parading kids around as militants? Will it be Fatah gunmen holding press conferences when they are not randomly murdering Palestinians in the street? Will Islamic Jihad continue to echo the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades’ call to liberate all Israeli territory and eliminate israel? Will Syria and Iran keep throwing logs onto the Palestinian extremists' fire and continue to screw it up for everyone involved?

Israel can do something... or it can do nothing... but at the end of the day whether Israel does something or nothing Syria and Iran remain a threat and the Palestinian Authority will eventually have to take full responsibility for internal security and public order as well as civil affairs. The excuse for not taking full responsibility was the occupation, then it was settlements, then it was IDF operations to wack terrorists, then it was the checkpoints, the security barrier, the upcoming elections. What will be the excuse after the elections?

I fear that even after the Palestinian elections the status quo will remain as is.

Mycroft

24th January 2006, 07:04 AM

That kind of questioning is completely inappropriate for this section of the forum.

Why do you think it's inappropriate?

kimiko

24th January 2006, 03:59 PM

kimiko, if you had made anything resembling a coherent comment regarding the OP, no patronizing of you would have been necessary. As it stands, you chose to post another one of those incorrectly-based "American Indian = Palestinians" comparisons.
I had no issue with Zenith-Nadir offered a side-remark about the lack of Israel appearing on some maps, since it was tengenital to the main point, which is that IRAN and SYRIA are huge supporters of anti-Israel efforts at many levels.Patronizing is never necessary; at least if its funny one can see the point. Further, that you don't agree with the American Indian = Palestinian comparison doesn't make it incorrect- a rebuttal is necessary for that. Zenith-Nadir's side remark deserved a response to explain how it was incorrect, and I gave it. There's no rule against tangents in the JREF, nor are you patronizing in response to all of them, so it looks like you just didn't like mine because you disagreed with it.

As for Iran- there hasn't been the slightest evidence presented in the thread that Iran had anything to do with the attack. I'm not inclined to blindly trust an official of a foreign government either.

I posted a link in another thread that said the US gave nuclear plans to Iran. No one responded to my link. It seems there is an assumption that Israel's strike on Iran will naturally go as well as the one on Iraq. I think that's naive, and worry there may be terrible repercussions for US forces in Iraq. Why do you think it's inappropriate?It should be obvious- this thread is not about my personal affiliations. Try a rebuttal instead of a personalization.

Mycroft

24th January 2006, 04:21 PM

It should be obvious- this thread is not about my personal affiliations. Try a rebuttal instead of a personalization.

A rebuttal is for things you want to rebut, not for questions you want to ask.

If someone were to express views someone else thought were "libertarian" in nature, wouldn't it be natural to ask if he/she were a libertarian? Why would you have a problem answering this simple question?

webfusion

24th January 2006, 09:29 PM

Kimiko denies that the Israelis have direct evidence of Iranian support of terrorism (as well as Syrian complicity):
"As for Iran- there hasn't been the slightest evidence presented in the thread that Iran had anything to do with the attack."

Yes, there was. I quoted Shaul Mofaz -- who spoke in a major policy forum in Herzlia within the past 72 hours (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-01/24/content_4093495.htm)
You just don't wish to accept the plain evidence. That is very unfortunate for you. While the President of Iran is having a strategic pow-wow with terrorists, you think it was only for a cup of nice tea, maybe?
I know that the word of Mofaz is totally reliable, since my government (the Israeli interim government, led by Ehud Olmert) has excellent spy services, has access to such details, and is in the position of being perfectly capable of pointing fingers precisely to where they deserve to be pointed.

Now, there is a new deadly threat against Israel deployed in the Gaza Strip, and it is entirely reasonable to say that the Iranians (using their proxies Hezbollah) had a hand in the delivery of these missiles.
The Fatah-al Aqsa Brigades of the Gaza Strip announced today,Tuesday, Jan. 24, receipt of a new surface missile, designated No. 207, whose 27- kilometer range covers the entire district of the Israeli port of Ashkelon. This new weapon is the Russian short-range GRAD 121mm.

In Iran itself, long-range 'Shahab-3' ballistic missiles have been moved on their trucks to sites within striking range of Israel. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard forces are anticipating an Israeli raid before March 20th, and are preparing their counter-strike capabilites already.

Top-ranking officers of the Israeli Defense Forces are convinced that the ARROW and Green Pine anti-missile systems will be able to eliminate such a counter-strike, and protect the population of Tel Aviv and Haifa, while the Air Force and ground forces using artillery provide a shield of fire into Gaza and across the border into Lebanon, as the Hezbollah are sure to engage once the Iranians have been hit by Israel.

All this is going on, Kimiko, right now. Are you following it?
I am. Very closely.

kimiko

25th January 2006, 02:54 PM

A rebuttal is for things you want to rebut, not for questions you want to ask.

If someone were to express views someone else thought were "libertarian" in nature, wouldn't it be natural to ask if he/she were a libertarian? Why would you have problem answering this simple question?Since my post was a comparison of the changing powers in possession of one piece of land with another, there is no suggestion of my personal opinion of what would be the most just arrangement, and particularly no suggestion of any desire to change the current one. The very question is suggestive that I may be in an extremist political organization, and I prefer to frustrate people who resort to asking personal questions in political debates: asking Cleon if he was a communist, asking me if I'm in Aztlan, etc...

kimiko

25th January 2006, 03:02 PM

Yes, there was. I quoted Shaul Mofaz -- who spoke in a major policy forum in Herzlia within the past 72 hours (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-01/24/content_4093495.htm)
You just don't wish to accept the plain evidence. His quote and your link provide absolutely zero evidence. It would be very unskeptical of me to simply trust the words of a foreign official.While the President of Iran is having a strategic pow-wow with terrorists, you think it was only for a cup of nice tea, maybe?Why did you use the word pow-wow to speak of a meeting between terrorists and the Iranian president? :mad: I know that the word of Mofaz is totally reliable, since my government (the Israeli interim government, led by Ehud Olmert) has excellent spy services, has access to such details, and is in the position of being perfectly capable of pointing fingers precisely to where they deserve to be pointed.In short, you have no evidence, but simply trust officials. The US has the best funded spy services in the world, and that didn't stop us from going into Iraq where there were either no WMD's or where they had been removed without our knowledge.All this is going on, Kimiko, right now. Are you following it?
I am. Very closely.I am, actually. I have deep concerns for my countrymen in Iraq.

Do you have no comments regarding the possibility that Iran already has nuclear weapons?

Mycroft

25th January 2006, 04:39 PM

Since my post was a comparison of the changing powers in possession of one piece of land with another, there is no suggestion of my personal opinion of what would be the most just arrangement, and particularly no suggestion of any desire to change the current one. The very question is suggestive that I may be in an extremist political organization, and I prefer to frustrate people who resort to asking personal questions in political debates: asking Cleon if he was a communist, asking me if I'm in Aztlan, etc...

Cleon used to edit a radical leftist paper called "Left Hook" which, while it may not be communist, certainly isn't far off. Plus, he's known to associate with communists in his activist work. I don't know if he's actually a communist or not, I wouldn't hold it against him if he were, the question was just a question.

So...at least we know you consider organizations such as Aztlan and Mecha to be "extremist."

webfusion

25th January 2006, 09:07 PM

kimiko, Yeah, I'm fine with the statements of the Israelis that they have traced the Sami Antar event and other suicide bombings back to Damascus and Tehran.

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1510
Matthew Levitt. Not a foreign official. He is a respected member of the
Washington Institute for Near East Policy, testifying before the US Congress.

This was last year!
Things have gone from bad to worse over the interim.

You go ahead, kimiko, cling to whatever fantasy you have that the Iranians are led by a fine upstanding bunch of mullahs. All I can say to you, is 'Yecchhh'.

webfusion

25th January 2006, 09:30 PM

The Fool

25th January 2006, 09:43 PM

I have a question that seems to address the issue at hand, TF.
Why should the Palestinian Authority not be out there in the streets with their 60,000-strong force, arresting and putting the HAMAS and Islamic Jihad down?
Do you have any explanation for it?
Rather than you keep repeating that the statement by Mycroft is a baldface lie, why dontcha tell us exactly what you think the PA should be doing? That would add to our general knowledge of your position.
Thanks in advance.
It is my opinion that iF they were to try this then they would not succeed. There would be hundreds dead in the streets, many of them innocent bystanders and the majority of the combatant casualties would be PA. I think the PA probably share my opinion.

Can you explain to me why (if you think the only reason the PA does not put down Hamas is that they don't want to) this is not also the only reason the IDF has not put down Hamas?

The PA should be delivering social justice, improved living conditions, rule of law, health and self esteem...for this they will need assistance because they are still a raw fractired group riddled with corruption and cronyism...Who do you want to win the election web? PA or Hamas?

and lastly....

"its obvious from what he says that webfusion thinks the pope is not a Catholic"

"webfusion constantly asserts the pope is not a catholic"

one of those is an opinion the other is a lie...can you explain the difference to mycroft?

a_unique_person

26th January 2006, 04:44 AM

I have a question that seems to address the issue at hand, TF.
Why should the Palestinian Authority not be out there in the streets with their 60,000-strong force, arresting and putting the HAMAS and Islamic Jihad down?
Do you have any explanation for it?
Rather than you keep repeating that the statement by Mycroft is a baldface lie, why dontcha tell us exactly what you think the PA should be doing? That would add to our general knowledge of your position.
Thanks in advance.

It's a fair question, and one that we can guess at from the media. From what I read, HAMAS has a force that is just as strong, and Fatah is old, tired and dysfunctional, from too many years of leadership without enough cycles of renewal from the lack of real democracy under Arafat.

That is, they don't have the ability to do it. I may be wrong, that is what I can tell from what I read. Given the results of the elections, that may be an accurate assesment of the situation.

I don't know what else you expect Fool to do, when Mycroft does make things up. He should do what you do, and simply ask a question, without making suggestions that are disgusting.

David Swidler

26th January 2006, 04:56 AM

If they don't have the ability, how can they be taken seriously? This may be moot, given the apparent election results, but how can anyone honestly advocate that Israel negotiate with a PA run by people that simply can't deliver the goods?

Elind

26th January 2006, 09:05 AM

It will be interesting to see how this thread develops now that the "collective punishment" debates appear to have been somewhat clarified by the elections, and the Palestinian people have collectively spoken.

Just selected at random, this quote sounds like a good starting point:

Hamas operative Mohammed Rantisi, whipped out the late Yasser Arafat’s motto: We shall hold talks as though there is no terror and wage terror as though there are no talks.

As an aside; it's also interesting how one of the very few and possibly fairest elections in the region, thereby representing "democracy", certainly puts a spanner in the usual philosophy that democracies don't wage war against democracies.

The Fool

26th January 2006, 08:00 PM

As an aside; it's also interesting how one of the very few and possibly fairest elections in the region, thereby representing "democracy", certainly puts a spanner in the usual philosophy that democracies don't wage war against democracies.

Elind...you do realise what you are saying....these are the sacred philosophies of Sharansky, they cannot be wrong.

kimiko

26th January 2006, 11:22 PM

kimiko, Yeah, I'm fine with the statements of the Israelis that they have traced the Sami Antar event and other suicide bombings back to Damascus and Tehran.I require evidence.http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1510
Matthew Levitt. Not a foreign official. He is a respected member of the
Washington Institute for Near East Policy, testifying before the US Congress.The link predates this bombing and contains only general assertions that Iran is behind terrorism in Iraq and several Palestinian organizations. Again, no evidence. He says: ...there is substantial evidence Iran is also behind terrorism in Iraq. but doesn't say what those are or even the general nature. Also: While Iranian ministers have asserted that Tehran has not encouraged the Iraqi insurgency or permitted suicide bombers to cross the border, their actions indicate otherwise. What actions? Then the article mentions acting against American interests, but only lists the hostage taking of 1979 and the Marine barracks attack of 1983. Those were over 20 years ago- if he's trying to build a case to justify attacking Iran, he needs something more recent. The American public won't be as credulous this time around.You go ahead, kimiko, cling to whatever fantasy you have that the Iranians are led by a fine upstanding bunch of mullahs. All I can say to you, is 'Yecchhh'.Misrepresenting people's opinions in a debate is poor form.

And since you didn't respond, I ask again, why did you use the word "pow-wow" to describe a meeting between the president of Iran and terrorists? Was that racist slip accidental or deliberate?

Darat

27th January 2006, 04:59 AM

I've moved a lot of posts from this thread and dumped them in Abandon All hope. In all likelihood I've not been able to move all the inappropriate or puerile content and may have moved one or two posts that could have stayed however I think the thread is more or less back to being “appropriate”.

As always remember the section you are in i.e. “Politics, Current Affairs and Social Issues” and remember that whilst it is appropriate to challenge or attack the argument or claim it is not appropriate to attack the member.

Elind

27th January 2006, 05:59 AM

Elind...you do realise what you are saying....these are the sacred philosophies of Sharansky, they cannot be wrong.

Sharansky? Who's that? I was thinking of Bush:confused:

webfusion

27th January 2006, 06:27 PM

BREAKING NEWS:
The United States Senate (not a foreign ministry) has called for the UN to discuss Iran's "many failures ... to comply faithfully with its nuclear non-proliferations obligations."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/675780.html

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\
Now that Hamas is the victor in Gaza and the Territories, it will be even that much easier for Israeli pilots to embark on their planned raid to Natanz & Isfahan. The destruction of the Iranian enrichment centrifuges will enflame the already tense situation inside the Palestinian Authority and HAMAS will obviously be ordered by the puppeteers in Tehran to react (also Hezbollah, another Iranian proxy terrorist organization). Nothing could make the Israelis more pleased, than to see HAMAS fail miserably in their efforts to become "legit" ----

===============================
The term "pow-wow" is perfectly reasonable to describe a "sit-down" in common usage, kimiko. Don't get yourself in a lather about it.