New forumite, who I am, how I got 'here'...

[geetarmoore]

Hey everyone. I spent today reading some of the threads on this sub forum, and enjoyed the topics and insights of the regular members. Thanks.

For 25 years, I was a Lutheran evangelical who played music at worship and taught teen bible study. I was indoctrinated into the church from birth, and didn't question anything until my mid 20's. I found when I did, however, the story just fell apart. My religious leaders didn't have any answers for my logic based questions, so I drifted away from the church.

For 10 years, I was in a limbo. I knew that my faith was non-existent, but I felt very funny about coming out and calling myself an atheist. About 5 years ago, I came to grips with my belief, and gained the strength to tell people that I lacked any belief. Yes, it's SAD that this was such a hard thing for me, but the cult of religion is strong and the stigma against faithless belief is brutal.

At that point, I left all the religious mumbo-jumbo behind me, and went on with my life.

Well, three months ago, I was challenged to re-evaluate my faith by a couple of co-workers. I told them that this was of no use, as I had already done such a thing and had made up my mind.

Well, this wasn't enough for these guys, so they convinced me to buy Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" book, and review it. They were sure that I'd read what was in that book, come to my senses, and RUSH back to Christianity.

Well, I got the book and started studying, fact checking McDowell along the way. What I found was beyond my farthest comprehension.

How can people who HONESTLY and TOTALY evaluate this garbage come to ANY kind of decision that this is real, and not just the product of ancient myth?

Every step I took along my evaluation would uncover more evidence that this and ALL religions were every bit the sham that I had envisioned them 15 years ago, but even worse than I could have known.

I brought the evidence of this crockery back to my co-workers, and watched them sit at their desks, slack-jawed, as I related the info that I had researched to them. Of course, the Catholic thought that I had been possessed by the devil, and questioned every of the multiple sources that I had cited. They had both actually thought that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John had written their gospels directly after the supposed crucifixion, and had no idea of the actual history of the books of the bible. Lambasting them was liberating, to tell you the truth.

I didn't need any kind of confirmation for my lack of belief before my latest study, but this new info that I have armed myself with surely makes me convinced that this religious dogma must be eliminated from the earth for the good of the citizens.

I now classify myself as a 'evangelistic atheist', and will engage Christians in debate without care for their feelings, as long as they initiate the discussion.

Of course, the Christians who first witnessed to me at work are silent, as they do not like getting slammed over and over, each time they bring it up. They have no answers for my questions and facts, because there ARE NO answers, only excuses, and I believe they know them to be weak. They'd rather shelter themselves from the reality than to be confronted with the truth.

So at any rate, that is how I got to today, and I look forward to learning and participating in the discussions here.
;)

[Genesius]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Welcome to the party! I'm sure you'll find plenty to keep you busy.

[Cleon]

Oh, just wait until kurious_kathy sees this.

Mwa ha ha.

Ha ha.

Ha ha.

:D

[roger]

Welcome to the forum.

I haven't, and don't want to, read that book. What is some of the evidence that 'demands a verdict", according to Mr. McDowell?

[roger]

Never mind, I got off my lazy butt and looked up the book on amazon, and read the reviews.

Actually, I guess I got "on" my lazy butt, as I'm sitting at a computer, but whatever....

[bignickel]

Thanks for the post, geetarmoore.

I had a similar story myself. Losing my faith back in college, I hardly gave it much thought for years. Then, over the years, occasionally I would look back into it, and it astounded me just how rotten various aspects of it was.

Every now and again, I would be hit by some revelation in a book, here at JREF, or just watching TV, and think: how could I have NOT seen that?! It's so obvious! It's as if you grew up in a magnificent cathedral, and then, after leaving it, you come back years earlier, only to find that what you stayed in for so long in your youth was not a wondrous structure, but a rickety, rotten shack built on a beach, with worm-eaten wood, rusty nails sticking out, and a hodge-podge design.

Some bits I remember over the years:
1. "The 10 Commandments" : "wait a minute, God is wasting little Egyptian children?"

2. Christopher Hitchens at TAM3: paraphrased, "grant them every single thing in the Bible: it doesn't prove the thesis". Brilliant!

3. A recent poster in this sub-forum: paraphrased, "The Old Testament was about the Jews, not about mankind." Adam and Eve were the first Jews, NOT the first humans. Why didn't I see that before?

4. John Hartung's article in Skeptic Vol3, Num4: "Love thy Neighbor, The Evolution of In-Group Morality"

5. And the recent article on that one guys' blog (dang it, don't remember who): Jesus saying "my god, my god, why have you forsaken me?" only makes sense if he was expecting to be RESCUED. Why would the Son of God, and God himself (trinity, and all that), have to ask why he wasn't being rescued? It's because he HAD BEEN expecting the Hand O' God to come on down and save him, and he was DELUDED.

[ImaginalDisc]

Nominated. Darned good first post.

[cyborg]

Testify brother, testify!

Praise no-Jebus!

(Oh, and welcome :) )

[supercorgi]

Welcome geetarmoore!! I think you'll find yourself in good company here. Welcome home! :D

[Tricky]

Add me to your welcoming committe/fan club, geetarmoore. You might be interested in this old thread, How did you convert to atheism? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=28196)

I want to know who moore is, and what king of geetar he plays.

[geetarmoore]

Add me to your welcoming committe/fan club, geetarmoore.

I want to know who moore is, and what king of geetar he plays.

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone.... (And they say people without faith have no moral sense of community ;) ) It's good to be among philosophical friends finally.

I am a 'geetar' player, and play Jackson, Ibanez and Ovation guitars. I did road work for 10 years or so, but my current employment situation does not allow for that kind of thing. I have a small project studio, but don't do as much in there as I should. I mostly just pick up the acoustic and pick now and then for my own happiness.

Thanks again. :)

[Marquis de Carabas]

Ibanez... good show. Welcome.

[Mercutio]

Heh. Welcome!

I did not know the book by name, but now that I have looked it up, I find that I had a similar experience last summer to that which you describe. This time, it was my sister-in-law, a fairly (10 yrs or so) new convert to Catholicism, who cited the "trilemma" as the thing that sealed the deal for her. "Lord, liar, or lunatic" really touched her. I had some fun telling her that there was at least one other option--fiction. She started to argue, but it was quickly apparent that I knew her bible better than she did. Like your friends, she thought the gospels were contemporary eyewitness accounts.

Anyway...welcome, and congratulations on the fun that argument must have been! :D

[tkingdoll]

:welcome3

[UnrepentantSinner]

Welcome geetarmoore. I was confrontational for a while myself (long after I'd deterined I was an atheist), but decided to avoid apologetics and stick to church/state and Creation/Evolution issues that I find much more interesting.

Oddly enough, I can discuss religion, but not politics with two of my co-workers who are atheist as well. One is a Canadian born liberal, and the other is to the right of Ann Coulter, and I'd wind up arguing with either of them depending on the issue, so I try and limit the political talk.

[nosho]

Jesus saying "my god, my god, why have you forsaken me?" only makes sense if he was expecting to be RESCUED. Why would the Son of God, and God himself (trinity, and all that), have to ask why he wasn't being rescued? It's because he HAD BEEN expecting the Hand O' God to come on down and save him, and he was DELUDED.

Or he might have been reciting the first line of the 22nd Psalm, which, in its entirety, is a hymn of praise.

(Welcome to the forum, geetarmoore! Good to have you.)

[kmortis]

geetarmoore,
First...MOUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...<snicker>. My brother gave me the New Evidence That Demands a Virdict after I told him that I was agnostic. I now (mostly) consider myself atheist. I don't think that's what he had in mind.
Second, welcome, or as is sometimes said around here emoclew. No, I don't know why.

Hail Eris
Praise "Bob"
Glory to Ed
&
Oh, Laudy-Laud.

[TobiasTheViking]

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone.... (And they say people without faith have no moral sense of community ;) ) It's good to be among philosophical friends finally.

I am a 'geetar' player, and play Jackson, Ibanez and Ovation guitars. I did road work for 10 years or so, but my current employment situation does not allow for that kind of thing. I have a small project studio, but don't do as much in there as I should. I mostly just pick up the acoustic and pick now and then for my own happiness.

Thanks again. :)
Welcome.

And as for atheists having no moral sense... well, there have been about 4-5(if not more) threads this year(that is, 21 days) to disprove this argument :D hehe, no, we are not proud... ok, we are. :D

[logical muse]

Hey geetarmoore, let me add my belated welcome.

Great first post!

guitar good

[Ducky]

Hey everyone. I spent today reading some of the threads on this sub forum, and enjoyed the topics and insights of the regular members. Thanks.

For 25 years, I was a Lutheran evangelical who played music at worship and taught teen bible study. I was indoctrinated into the church from birth, and didn't question anything until my mid 20's. I found when I did, however, the story just fell apart. My religious leaders didn't have any answers for my logic based questions, so I drifted away from the church.

For 10 years, I was in a limbo. I knew that my faith was non-existent, but I felt very funny about coming out and calling myself an atheist. About 5 years ago, I came to grips with my belief, and gained the strength to tell people that I lacked any belief. Yes, it's SAD that this was such a hard thing for me, but the cult of religion is strong and the stigma against faithless belief is brutal.

At that point, I left all the religious mumbo-jumbo behind me, and went on with my life.

Well, three months ago, I was challenged to re-evaluate my faith by a couple of co-workers. I told them that this was of no use, as I had already done such a thing and had made up my mind.

Well, this wasn't enough for these guys, so they convinced me to buy Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" book, and review it. They were sure that I'd read what was in that book, come to my senses, and RUSH back to Christianity.

Well, I got the book and started studying, fact checking McDowell along the way. What I found was beyond my farthest comprehension.

How can people who HONESTLY and TOTALY evaluate this garbage come to ANY kind of decision that this is real, and not just the product of ancient myth?

Every step I took along my evaluation would uncover more evidence that this and ALL religions were every bit the sham that I had envisioned them 15 years ago, but even worse than I could have known.

I brought the evidence of this crockery back to my co-workers, and watched them sit at their desks, slack-jawed, as I related the info that I had researched to them. Of course, the Catholic thought that I had been possessed by the devil, and questioned every of the multiple sources that I had cited. They had both actually thought that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John had written their gospels directly after the supposed crucifixion, and had no idea of the actual history of the books of the bible. Lambasting them was liberating, to tell you the truth.

I didn't need any kind of confirmation for my lack of belief before my latest study, but this new info that I have armed myself with surely makes me convinced that this religious dogma must be eliminated from the earth for the good of the citizens.

I now classify myself as a 'evangelistic atheist', and will engage Christians in debate without care for their feelings, as long as they initiate the discussion.

Of course, the Christians who first witnessed to me at work are silent, as they do not like getting slammed over and over, each time they bring it up. They have no answers for my questions and facts, because there ARE NO answers, only excuses, and I believe they know them to be weak. They'd rather shelter themselves from the reality than to be confronted with the truth.

So at any rate, that is how I got to today, and I look forward to learning and participating in the discussions here.
;)


Welcome!!!!

Well written post, and I look forward to having your six against kurious kathy and christian dude's garbage.

[10001]

Hey everyone. I spent today reading some of the threads on this sub forum, and enjoyed the topics and insights of the regular members. Thanks.



Of course, the Christians who first witnessed to me at work are silent, as they do not like getting slammed over and over, each time they bring it up. They have no answers for my questions and facts, because there ARE NO answers, only excuses, and I believe they know them to be weak. They'd rather shelter themselves from the reality than to be confronted with the truth.

So at any rate, that is how I got to today, and I look forward to learning and participating in the discussions here.
;)

only God can have real 'answers' to questions...
it is very silly for those humans to try...
it is like they are trying to be the God they worship.
many religious people often fall into that crack.
they forget what they preach. "free will"

just leave the normal? people alone...

God is most likely just watching us on tv anyway.