English independence

[Jon_in_london]

Seeing as how Wales, Scotland and Northen Ireland have their own parliaments- shouldnt England also have its own?

[Ian Osborne]

With England so dominant in Westminster, is there really any point?

[MRC_Hans]

Question is: Is England sufficiently advanced to be able to have her own government?

Hans

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
With England so dominant in Westminster, is there really any point?

Yes, there is. Welsh and Scots can have a say in how Wales and Scotland are run AS WELL as how Britain is run whereas English can only have a say in the latter.

[BillyTK]

It seems a fair question, Wales and Scotland have their parliaments and Northern Ireland has its assembly, and then we have a parliament which governs the entire union, but no specific governing body for England...

...but, it's important to remember that neither the Welsh and Scottish parliaments or the Northern Ireland Assembly are fully independent from the British Parliament. So for instance, whilst the Welsh parliament can create legislation, the British parliament has to approve it; and there are limits to the range of subjects Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland can author legislation on. Let's not forget that all of these giverning bodies include people who see themselves as part of the union and don't want total independence from it and that English mps dominate the UK parliament anyway.

IMO I'd hate to see the setup of another bloody parliament solely for England with all the beaurocracy, procrastination and general waste of resources that would entail, but I would much prefer to see devolution of many aspects of government to a local level.

Independence for Yorkshire and a return to our pre-1976 borders! :D

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by BillyTK
Independence for Yorkshire and a return to our pre-1976 borders! :D

Ditto for Staffordshire! The West Midlands is a squatter county that has no right to exist...

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Seeing as how Wales, Scotland and Northen Ireland have their own parliaments- shouldnt England also have its own? Is this a veiled appeal to be liberated by the U.S.?

Just a coincidence that we just wrapped up a job, and aren't particularly busy at the moment?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Is this a veiled appeal to be liberated by the U.S.?

Just a coincidence that we just wrapped up a job, and aren't particularly busy at the moment?

Are US troops stong enough to face Haggis and leeks?

:p

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Are US troops stong enough to face Haggis and leeks?

:p

But judging by recent events, they'd certainly cut down on football hooliganism!

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Are US troops stong enough to face Haggis and leeks?

:p

Ahhhh....No. Got us there. Nope. No way, no how.

[Hellcat]

Yes it should.

The Kingdom of Mercia should separate and govern itself from the control of the South (westminster)which is both fairly impractical has very little relevance to how life is up here in the Midlands in general.

A move I whole heartedly support as with many others( vampires , werewolves and other demons supposedly that we all are here) Why on earth Nosferatu is associated with Birmingham I will never fully understand. Gangrels of Coventry well that speaks for itself lol. :D

[Mendor]

There should be an English parliament, as the situation at the moment is that English MPs cannot vote on specifically Scottish issues because they're devolved to the Scottish Parliament (which is good) but Scottish MPs can vote on specifically English issues (which is bad). (I only speak about Scottish MPs because I'm not sure how the Welsh and Northen Irish Assemblies function - I didn't know that Westminster has to approve Welsh legislation, for example)

Scottish (Welsh, Northen Irish) MPs should still, of course have a say in matters concerning the whole Union.

I support independence for Scotland, and one way of getting closer to that goal is to sort out the currently silly situation where Scotland, Wales, NI and London have their own assemblies but England has none.

Is it the LibDems that would like to see a federalised UK? That would be an interesting experiment.

Mendor

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Mendor
There should be an English parliament, as the situation at the moment is that English MPs cannot vote on specifically Scottish issues because they're devolved to the Scottish Parliament (which is good) but Scottish MPs can vote on specifically English issues (which is bad). (I only speak about Scottish MPs because I'm not sure how the Welsh and Northen Irish Assemblies function - I didn't know that Westminster has to approve Welsh legislation, for example)


Yes, this is of course what strikes me as unfair and can lead to things like the Barnett formula:



The Barnett Formula
In 1996/7, total expenditure per head of population on services in Scotland was 24% higher than in England. That figure is for all public service and welfare spending, including that on social security. If we look at spending in those policy areas which have been devolved to Scotland, it can be seen that spending is on average 31% per person higher in Scotland than in England. Spending in Scotland on health and personal social services was 22% higher; education 31% higher; transport 31% higher; trade, industry, energy and employment 55% higher; housing 87% higher; agriculture 123% higher. This additional funding for Scotland under the Barnett formula amounts to £8 billion each year.


From Mendor:

Is it the LibDems that would like to see a federalised UK? That would be an interesting experiment.


I dont know really, dont much like the LibDems. Bit too PC & opportunist for me. I dont think full independence for ANY of the regions/nations of the UK is a feasible proposition. Our societies, infrastructure, economies, military etc... are just far too integrated to be torn apart willy nilly. Like it or not- I think a high degree of 'devolution' is the best we can hope for and I think a federal system would be best.

Inculded in the federation of course would be places like Gibraltar, the falklands and other imperial vestiges.

And for gods sake! lets get rid of that bunch of lazy Germans kicking around Buckingham palace, sponging off our salaries while masquerading as a Royal family!!

Any thoughts?

[Jon_in_london]

*bump*

[Mike B.]

Well off topic a bit...

If England had its own legistlature would that increase the amount of Tories in local government?

It seems the Tories did rather well in the latest local elections.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't England more Tory than Scotland and Wales? I mean the Tories MPs were wiped out when Labor came to power.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Well off topic a bit...

If England had its own legistlature would that increase the amount of Tories in local government?

It seems the Tories did rather well in the latest local elections.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't England more Tory than Scotland and Wales? I mean the Tories MPs were wiped out when Labor came to power.

It would increase the amount of power the Torys have in England but not in Britain as a whole- just the same as the SNP has lots of clout in Scotland but not much in Westminster.

Besides, most of the people who vote tory will die of extreme old age in the next 10 years :p ;) :D

[Mendor]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

just the same as the SNP has lots of clout in Scotland but not much in Westminster.
...had lots of clout... :(

We are awash with rainbow parties now. 7 Greens, 6 Scottish Socialists, 4 independents. Took most of the vote from the Nationalists (and Labour, but not so much)

Mendor

[corplinx]

Here's an idea. Do away with the commonwealth. The united kingdom's parts can all be in the EU anyway. Do away with all those remnants of the empire. So many islands around the world. Set them afloat.

English parliament, UK parliament, EU, UN, how much bueracracy do you want?

[E.J.Armstrong]

Northen Ireland has its own assembly? That would be the one that is currently closed down.

Perhaps Northen Irish politicians are not grown up enough to be allowed to continue the shambles they continually make of the job.

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


And for gods sake! lets get rid of that bunch of lazy Germans kicking around Buckingham palace, sponging off our salaries while masquerading as a Royal family!!


I'm sensing a certain, .... how should I say,.... ambivalent attitude to the Royals in your recent posts Jon, can I call you Jon?

Great, so sit down on the couch and we'll talk about it.

What I'm going to do is say a word, and I want you to say the first thing that comes into your head, OK?

Corgi.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Hypocolius
Corgi.
Football.

[Hypocolius]

Now now Dr Benway, your appointment isn't until later.

OK Jon,

Green Wellies.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Hypocolius
Now now Dr Benway, your appointment isn't until later.

OK Jon,

Green Wellies.

Very Smellies

[Underemployed]

England can get its own government when it destroys its Weapons of Mass Destruction.

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Very Smellies

Good, we're getting somewhere.

Polo.

[gnome]

Has anyone came up with a solid definition of when a separatist movement should justly have its own nation?

Obviously it must be right some of the time, or Americans are descended from evil terrorists :eek:

So when is it justified?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Hypocolius


Good, we're getting somewhere.

Polo.

Ralph Lauren.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by gnome
Has anyone came up with a solid definition of when a separatist movement should justly have its own nation?
A fairly good example of when a movement to separate is justified is made here: http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[Captain_Snort]

Originally posted by Mendor

...had lots of clout... :(

We are awash with rainbow parties now. 7 Greens, 6 Scottish Socialists, 4 independents. Took most of the vote from the Nationalists (and Labour, but not so much)

Mendor

If you look Mendor, the SSP and Greens both have Scottish independance high up in their manifestos, so surely its people, like me, who see that the SNP could not organise a cock up in a brothel are voting otherwise.

the main losers in the election were Labour and the SNP.

[Captain_Snort]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Seeing as how Wales, Scotland and Northen Ireland have their own parliaments- shouldnt England also have its own?

Does NI have its own parliament as it keeps getting suspended every few months?

the Isle of man has had its own parliament sinse, well forever

Wales, it is an assembly, not a parliament, with now powers.

Scotland has always kept is separate legal and educational systems, just the parliament now has slightly more power to elected representatives than it had under unelected civil servents when the Scottish Office ran things. I would love to see a ruling party in Scotland that was not the same as in Westminster, now that would be fun to watch.

But I would love to see independance for england, which means we are therefore separate.

[Mendor]

Originally posted by Captain_Snort


If you look Mendor, the SSP and Greens both have Scottish independance high up in their manifestos, so surely its people, like me, who see that the SNP could not organise a cock up in a brothel are voting otherwise.

the main losers in the election were Labour and the SNP.
The SSP yes. The Greens? I thought they just weren't against independence in a we'll-not-call-a-referendum-but-would-probably-vote-yes-if-one-were-set-up way.

The SNP is going through an incompetent phase at the moment (I would call for Swinney's head but - who'd replace him?) but I don't feel that this fracturing of the independence vote can be a good thing, seeing as the SNP and the SSP have about as much chance of getting into bed together as the DUP and Sinn Fein.

It will be fun when the Scottish Parliament is of a different colour to the Westminster one (I'm thinking red and blue here rather than yellow and red). I think that's when the big push for independence will really come, when tempers betwen Holyrood and London start fraying and it all sort of comes apart.

Mendor