How many of you know a ''spiritual'' person who is anti-religion?

[Pae]

I know someone who is ''spiritual'' but attacks religion. For instance, if someone is on TV talking about god, heaven, hell etc.... this person will start ranting about how they believe in mythology and stories. However, this person will then turn around and start telling me how souls, karma, ESP, hauntings etc.... exist and he knows this because he experienced it. Ofcourse I reply that Christians claim to experience their god too but it never seems to register with him. How can a ''spiritual'' person attack a religious person when they use the same justification for their beliefs? Does anyone else ever run into someone like this?

[David Swidler]

I am reminded of an entry in Ambrose Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary:

sacrilege: n your irreverence toward my deity.

[geetarmoore]

I have known several people who are spiritual, but reject organized religion as harmful to the world, choosing instead to maintain a personal relationship with their God.

This is really a pretty common feeling among many people who call themselves 'Christians' that I know. They like the idea of an eternal afterlife, but don't want to be burdened with the brutal hour each week on Sunday to actually be worshiping. ;)

They are just placing a bet at the table of Pascal, if you ask me.

[10001]

I know someone who is ''spiritual'' but attacks religion. For instance, if someone is on TV talking about god, heaven, hell etc.... this person will start ranting about how they believe in mythology and stories. However, this person will then turn around and start telling me how souls, karma, ESP, hauntings etc.... exist and he knows this because he experienced it. Ofcourse I reply that Christians claim to experience their god too but it never seems to register with him. How can a ''spiritual'' person attack a religious person when they use the same justification for their beliefs? Does anyone else ever run into someone like this?


not anti religious...

just the people who believe it.. because they dont know what they are talking about

[SirPhilip]

I know someone who is ''spiritual'' but attacks religion. For instance, if someone is on TV talking about god, heaven, hell etc.... this person will start ranting about how they believe in mythology and stories. However, this person will then turn around and start telling me how souls, karma, ESP, hauntings etc.... exist and he knows this because he experienced it. Ofcourse I reply that Christians claim to experience their god too but it never seems to register with him. How can a ''spiritual'' person attack a religious person when they use the same justification for their beliefs? Does anyone else ever run into someone like this? I think everyone, to some degree, understands karma as the inner logic of moral restraint, even if they've never heard the word or understood it's meaning before, but it's an inner quality, not a tangible one. I also understand what most reasonable people would conclude are tangible spiritual, even supernatural phenomena. It didn't make me feel spiritual at all. Even if these things do exist - albeit very rarely - it doesn't validate anything sublime, which is what it is always taken as. What it would validate is the idea that much of human culture and ritual isn't just empty nonsense. In that person's case though, it's just an attachment, and you should approach the subject with them in that context.

[Mandy]

How can a ''spiritual'' person attack a religious person when they use the same justification for their beliefs? Does anyone else ever run into someone like this?

To me, this is a similar situation to people who believe in God who ridicule those who believe in psychics, astrology, etc.

They state that because their belief in God is based on "faith", it's different from believing in other paranormal concepts without sufficient proof.

I don't really see the difference, but to each his own, I guess.

[Soapy Sam]

Mandy,
A word: Memes.

[Vagabond]

Well, I am not sure I qualify but I believe in a creator. I don't pray to this being nor ask any favors nor seek it's approval.

I distain all organized religion because it is manmade and self serving.

I don't believe in ghosts, spirits, ESP or any other kind of paranormal activity. I do believe however there are many things that happen that are unexplained and there might be a perfectly logical scientific basis for them.

I believe good and evil are absolute. I semi believe in Karma I am just not sure it actually tries to balance things as I have seen no evidence of this. I am open to the possibility though.

[slingblade]

I believe good and evil are absolute. I semi believe in Karma I am just not sure it actually tries to balance things as I have seen no evidence of this. I am open to the possibility though.

I went through this weird phase in which I first tried to believe in woo magic instead of God. After disappointment there, as well, I decided magic doesn't work, either, but there's still something out there even if I don't know what. During both of these phases, I still believed in karma. It is just a good idea to be nice, I thought, so the universe will be nice back.

Now I figure it's a good idea to be nice because of what it might do to my personality or outlook on life if I allow myself to become negative or mean. I no longer think anything, from benign creative consciousness to vindictive God, is "out there" anywhere.

I simply can't see good an evil as absolute, however. I guess I'm a humanist, as I see intent as a possible factor in making an act good or evil. Some things seem obviously good/evil to me, but some things don't seem so clear-cut. I feel it's wrong to kill, for instance, but in some circumstances, I can see myself committing euthanasia. Sex with children is horribly wrong, but I know of one relationship in which the man was 16 when it began, and the woman 32. They are happily married, and have been since he was 18. He is now 30, she 46, and you've never seen a couple still so ickily "in lurve" as these two are. :D

But it feels weird to me, as he is my step-son, and his wife is my age.....

Do I recommend that sort of relationship? Nope. These were two extraordinary people, definitely exceptions. I think we limit ourselves unnecessarily, and can cause equally unnecessary pain for ourselves and others, when we refuse to acknowledge exceptions.

[Mephisto]

I AM a spiritual person who is anti-religion.

Actually, I'm not so much anti-religion as I am anti-pushing your religious beliefs on me." I see religion as a sort of gymnasium for people who don't have the self-control or self-reliance to worship on their own.

I don't need religion to tell me who to hate and I don't need religion to teach me how to treat others. If you need religion to give you faith in your beliefs, fine, just keep it to yourself. In the U.S. it used to be that freedom of religion also meant freedom FROM religion as well, unfortunately that seems to be changing.

[SirPhilip]

I went through this weird phase in which I first tried to believe in woo magic instead of God. After disappointment there, as well, I decided magic doesn't work, either, but there's still something out there even if I don't know what. During both of these phases, I still believed in karma. It is just a good idea to be nice, I thought, so the universe will be nice back. The various types of karma are naturally eliminated by suffering, it doesn't change during one's life. It is also a negative, it occurs after death, so believing in it is pointless. If you are nice regardless of the world being nice to you, you are understanding and overcoming karma, even if you never heard the word.

I feel it's wrong to kill, for instance, but in some circumstances, I can see myself committing euthanasia. Sex with children is horribly wrong, but I know of one relationship in which the man was 16 when it began, and the woman 32. They are happily married, and have been since he was 18. He is now 30, she 46, and you've never seen a couple still so ickily "in lurve" as these two are. Well, consent laws vary around the world, but all laws recognize willful consent, and that before sexual maturity, it is improper. Of course, people reach sexual maturity at different times, hence the bar is higher in western countries than in others.

[Correa Neto]

I know many persons who belive in some sort of god and don't like religion. Maybe better say the religious organisations, groups, cults, churches, whatever.

And they come in all sorts of colors, Christians, Esoterics, Spritualists, Buddhists (please, let's not start and OT digression on what buddhim is), straights, gays, lesbians, etc. I know more people who don't like religion than people who like.

Why? Because they feel these organisations use religion as a way to control their lives.

[Iacchus]

"God does not dwell in a house built by hands."

[geetarmoore]

"God does not dwell in a house built by hands."


This is true.

It is also too long by "in a house built by hands."


;)

[Cosmo]

"God does not dwell in a house built by hands."

Are you going to convey what, exactly, you mean by this, or will you continue to think you've said something intelligent?

[Iacchus]

Are you going to convey what, exactly, you mean by this, or will you continue to think you've said something intelligent?It means one does not have to go to church in order to believe in God.

[Cosmo]

It means one does not have to go to church in order to believe in God.

I think you mean "God does not necessarily dwell in a house built by hands", or perhaps "God does not only dwell in a house built by hands".

As it is now, "God does not dwell in a house built by hands", it suggests that God doesn't 'dwell' in church at all.

[Iacchus]

I think you mean "God does not necessarily dwell in a house built by hands", or perhaps "God does not only dwell in a house built by hands".

As it is now, "God does not dwell in a house built by hands", it suggests that God doesn't 'dwell' in church at all.I'm suggesting that God does not expect us to worship him in the formal sense. In fact, how else would we get to know Him, if not on an informal basis?

[Cosmo]

I'm suggesting that God does not expect us to worship him in the formal sense. In fact, how else would we get to know Him, if not on an informal basis?

And I'm suggesting that you have your little quote backwards. As for 'getting to know God', I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert on the subject like yourself.

[Roboramma]

I'm suggesting that God does not expect us to worship him in the formal sense. In fact, how else would we get to know Him, if not on an informal basis?
I think you meant to say, "Oh, good point Cosmo."

[Iacchus]

And I'm suggesting that you have your little quote backwards. As for 'getting to know God', I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert on the subject like yourself.Really? I think it all depends on how well you know yourself.

[Roboramma]

This is true.

It is also too long by "in a house built by hands."


;)
:biggrin:

[Iacchus]

I think you meant to say, "Oh, good point Cosmo."Oh, is that what he said? Sorry, I couldn't sort past all the nit-picking.

[Cosmo]

Oh, is that what he said? Sorry, I couldn't sort past all the nit-picking.

Your quote could easily be seen to suggest that God does not 'dwell' in church. Surely you could forgive such a minor nit-pick on my part.

[Iacchus]

Your quote could easily be seen to suggest that God does not 'dwell' in church.Yes, it is very much a denouncement of formalized religion.

[Iacchus]

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. ~ Jeremiah 31:31-34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=31&version=9)This is the only God that I'm familiar with, by the way. ;)

[SuperCoolGuy]

This is the only God that I'm familiar with, by the way. ;)

So, I'm assuming you're from the House of Israel or from the House of Judah since your God has made a covenant with only those people and you seem to be happy about that.

Whereas, I'm quite sure I am not from either house, and as such, God has made no covenant with me or my people and I'm screwed. Which is okay . . . it's cool. Kinda sucks for me, and maybe a few billion others, but I'm okay with it. It's all good.

[Iacchus]

So, I'm assuming you're from the House of Israel or from the House of Judah since your God has made a covenant with only those people and you seem to be happy about that.In the literal sense? Perhaps not. But then again, if it were meant to be taken literally, as a sign of the external church, it would be necessary (once again) for them to profess it to each other, don't you think?

Whereas, I'm quite sure I am not from either house, and as such, God has made no covenant with me or my people and I'm screwed. Which is okay . . . it's cool. Kinda sucks for me, and maybe a few billion others, but I'm okay with it. It's all good.Fine with me too. :p

[kurious_kathy]

not anti religious...

just the people who believe it.. because they dont know what they are talking about
Maybe the other way of looking at this question could be...
New Age Spirtuality VS Religion

I have quite a few thoughts about this subject being that I myself in the past was very New Age in my thinking of the spiritual significance side to life. What I found was the truth in an age of deception. Where does this deception come from? It seems to be everywhere in our society. People tend to say that may be right for you, but that’s not right for me. Beloved we are all God’s creation.

I would like to share this poem that was written by the late, great Russell Kelfer…

You are who you are for a reason. You’re part of an intricate plan. You’re a precious and perfect unique design, Called God’s special woman or man.
You look like you look for a reason. Our God made no mistake. He knit you together within the womb, You’re just what he wanted to make.
The parents you had were the ones he chose, And no matter how you may feel, They were custom-designed with God’s plan in mind, And they bear the Master’s seal.
No that trauma you faced was not easy. And God wept that it hurt you so; But it was allowed to shape your heart so that into his likeness you’d grow.
You are who you are for a reason , You’ve been formed by the Master’s rod. You are who you are beloved, because there is a God.

I went from the belief that tends to be more a pantheistic point of view to the realization that there is only one God and many don’t even know him. This is what I see so clearly after coming to faith in Christ. He is the way the truth the life, but how many have even tried to know who Jesus is? Any questions we may have can be cleared up through him.
I don’t know how to put into words, but knowing Christ makes one come spiritually alive. Other religions that I have found like Mormonism tend to take a view of the polytheistic type. Their doctrine teaches their followers that they will become their own God someday. This is just simply not true. .As far as other religions, well everything outside of Christ leads to death. I would just like to share there are many false beliefs and religions in the world, perhaps this is what God uses to separate the sheep from the goats? I believe we all need to learn to ask and question what is the truth? AKA Soul Searching.

I am just one more of the people in this world that came to faith and it changed me radically. Jesus said if we accept his words, then we accept the one who sent him. It’s awesome to have faith, I just wished others could have what I found. “ There is a truth that sets a person free, it’s only found when we go to Calvary.”

Just my perspective… seems people who realize there is a spiritual side to life know they are on a spiritual journey, looking for God. Where someone who says, I don’t believe in the spiritual side to life seem to be the ones like many on this forum who say they don’t even believe God is there.

[SuperCoolGuy]

Just my perspective… seems people who realize there is a spiritual side to life know they are on a spiritual journey, looking for God. Where someone who says, I don’t believe in the spiritual side to life seem to be the ones like many on this forum who say they don’t even believe God is there.

I happen to know of many people, myself included, who are not spiritual but do believe in a God.

Also, pretty much all Buddhists are spiritual people with no belief in God.

I think people who bounce around different belief systems and still cling to belief in supernatural phenomenon, New Age or religious, want to believe that their life is a spiritual journey that has or will lead them to the final, eternal truth, because that feels good.

Whereas, some people end up not being very spiritual at all but still look for God, and feel good too. Also, it's been my experience that people give up on God, and they're doing just fine.

There's my perspective

[Tricky]

As far as other religions, well everything outside of Christ leads to death.
It is exactly such smug, and hateful beliefs such as this that lead many very spiritual people to despise Christianity. Why is it that so many Christians are not satisfied with finding a path to God, but they must spit on all other paths?

[SuperCoolGuy]

It is exactly such smug, and hateful beliefs such as this that lead many very spiritual people to despise Christianity. Why is it that so many Christians are not satisfied with finding a path to God, but they must spit on all other paths?

Easy Tricky. In KK's defense, her religion really provides no alternative to eternal life except through Christianity. Thus, all other religions lead to death.

When someone preaches as much as KK does, a statement like that does seem smug and hateful, but it is her view of other religions through the lens of the bible. And as such, it is her view of what will happen to you and me if we do not harken to her words, or the words of the Gospel.

I do not believe she has that view out of hate, but out of committment to the version of Christianity she follows.

Oh, and one more thing . . . . . SPOON!

[Tricky]

Easy Tricky. In KK's defense, her religion really provides no alternative to eternal life except through Christianity. Thus, all other religions lead to death.

When someone preaches as much as KK does, a statement like that does seem smug and hateful, but it is her view of other religions through the lens of the bible. And as such, it is her view of what will happen to you and me if we do not harken to her words, or the words of the Gospel.

I do not believe she has that view out of hate, but out of committment to the version of Christianity she follows.
I know a few Christians who make no such pronouncements. Sadly they are very few. But whether or not KK herself is smug and hateful, the premise of condemning members of other religions to death is a smug and hateful creed. I do of course realize that it is not the only religion that does this, but I find those religions to be equally revolting. It's one reason why, if I had to choose a religion, I would choose Paganism. It has the whole pantheon of gods available, and any one of them (including the god of Christ) can lead to spiritual enlightenment and (if you choose to believe it) heaven.

My mother used to tell a little story (which her father told to her) about religion. He said religion was like rain on the mountain. One drop starts running down the side and cries "Follow me. I'll lead you to the sea!" Another drop goes in another direction and cries, "No! Follow me. I'll lead you to the sea!" And the little streams gather and run off in every direction. But don't you know, they're all going to make it to the sea.

Oh, and one more thing . . . . . SPOON!
His mighty muscles ripple beween his ears. "Look out, evildoers!"

[kurious_kathy]

It is exactly such smug, and hateful beliefs such as this that lead many very spiritual people to despise Christianity. Why is it that so many Christians are not satisfied with finding a path to God, but they must spit on all other paths?
I'm sorry if this statement seems hateful. There really is nothing to hate about Christ. Perhaps it's just some of the bad teachings that people have seen that has turned them away from Christianity?

As a Christian I have several concerns about false teachings and beliefs. I know I get very voicetross about that. But I once was more pagan minded myself, and it got me nowhere but confused. Now I have spritual boundaries that Jesus taught us and there is no confusion or doubt in my mind that He is the light of the world!

[Cosmo]

Perhaps it's just some of the bad teaching that people have seen that has turned them away from Christianity.

For quite a few people here, your teaching falls into this category.

[Tricky]

I'm sorry if this statement seems hateful. There really is nothing to hate about Christ. Perhaps it's just some of the bad teachings that people have seen that has turned them away from Christianity?
Perhaps it is bad teachings, but one of the bad teaching, in my opinion, is the one that says Christ is the only way to God. Unfortunately, that's a pretty fundamental teaching, smug and hateful though it is. I seriously doubt that Christ, as I interpret the things that are said about him, would deny Buddha entrance to heaven.

As a Christian I have several concerns about false teachings and beliefs. I know I get very voicetross about that. But I once was more pagan minded myself, and it got me nowhere but confused. Now I have spritual boundaries that Jesus taught us and there is no confusion or doubt in my mind that He is the light of the world!
Here is where we differ. I do not feel uncomfortable at all by not having all the answers. And I never want to give up searching for truth, in whatever form it comes. Your way of worship shuts your mind to all but your small view of the world. I don't think that is a good thing.

I would rather be confused with my eyes open than blindly certain.

[SuperCoolGuy]

I'm sorry if this statement seems hateful. There really is nothing to hate about Christ.

In the context of this discussion, those two statements should not have been linked together the way you did. Tricky took your statement to be hateful. You believe your statement was not hateful. Fine.

But nobody said anything about hating Christ, or about anything that should make people hate Christ. If I am to read those two statements you made correctly, then you are implying that people who take offense to being told they are going to hell are automatically hating Christ.

That is an unfair assumption.

[Dancing David]

I know someone who is ''spiritual'' but attacks religion. For instance, if someone is on TV talking about god, heaven, hell etc.... this person will start ranting about how they believe in mythology and stories. However, this person will then turn around and start telling me how souls, karma, ESP, hauntings etc.... exist and he knows this because he experienced it. Ofcourse I reply that Christians claim to experience their god too but it never seems to register with him. How can a ''spiritual'' person attack a religious person when they use the same justification for their beliefs? Does anyone else ever run into someone like this?


It is fairly common amongst pagans.

[SuperCoolGuy]

In the literal sense? Perhaps not. But then again, if it were meant to be taken literally, as a sign of the external church, it would be necessary (once again) for them to profess it to each other, don't you think?

Not following. What "external church"? There's no mention of an external church in those verses from Jeremiah.

As a sign of the external church? Are you trying to channel Paul's words into this?

Maybe the verses simply means, "literally", that God made a covenant with the House of Judah and House of Israel. They can profess to each other, but it has nothing to do with you and nothing to do with me. If you want to jump in on the covenant and claim a piece for yourself, go right ahead. But don't quote those verses to back up your claim, because there's no justification.

[Diamond]

My reaction is: "If God does not dwell in a house made by hands, then if I live in handbuilt homes, I get my privacy back"

[SuperCoolGuy]

I don’t know how to put into words, but knowing Christ makes one come spiritually alive. Other religions that I have found like Mormonism tend to take a view of the polytheistic type. Their doctrine teaches their followers that they will become their own God someday. This is just simply not true. .As far as other religions, well everything outside of Christ leads to death.

Wait, you give a rationale for why you didn't like Mormonism, which is because it tends "to take a view of the polytheistic type". Okay, fine. You looked into it, and you didn't like it. But, does Mormonism lead to death like other religions?

"As far as other religions" . . . is your only rationale for rejecting other religions based on a Christian standpoint?

If you like monotheism so much, have you seriously considered Juddaism, Ba'hai, or Islam. Have you given those a fair try?

How about Deism? All 4 of those have given immense spiritual satisfaction to different friends and family of mine. Are they fooling themselves into eternal death even though they have profound spiritual satisfaction?

[kurious_kathy]

Wait, you give a rationale for why you didn't like Mormonism, which is because it tends "to take a view of the polytheistic type". Okay, fine. You looked into it, and you didn't like it. But, does Mormonism lead to death like other religions?

"As far as other religions" . . . is your only rationale for rejecting other religions based on a Christian standpoint?

If you like monotheism so much, have you seriously considered Juddaism, Ba'hai, or Islam. Have you given those a fair try?

How about Deism? All 4 of those have given immense spiritual satisfaction to different friends and family of mine. Are they fooling themselves into eternal death even though they have profound spiritual satisfaction? Perhaps this is why Jesus told us He was the only way? If you believe Christ, you cannot see truth in any other religion! He told us narrow is the road that leads us home to heaven...wide is the gate that leads to destruction.

Being spiritual and knowing you are saved are two totally different things.

The monotheistic point of view is the right one, there is only 1 God. When the New Testement Believers are faced with the Old Testement Jewish people, I have one concern...that they know Jesus is the Messiah. The ones that have denied Him have been deceived. There are however many Messianic Jews that know Jesus is the Messiah.

And when you bring in the Muslims, well let's just say their god is not the same God. Jesus Christ is "God the Son." You can't get to heaven any other way. This is sound doctrine and has stood the test of time.

[kurious_kathy]

Perhaps this is why Jesus told us He was the only way? If you believe Christ, you cannot see truth in any other religion! He told us narrow is the road that leads us home to heaven...wide is the gate that leads to destruction.

Being spiritual and knowing you are saved are two totally different things.

The monotheistic point of view is the right one, there is only 1 God. When the New Testement Believers are faced with the Old Testement Jewish people, I have one concern...that they know Jesus is the Messiah. The ones that have denied Him have been deceived. There are however many Messianic Jews that know Jesus is the Messiah.

And when you bring in the Muslims, well let's just say their god is not the same God. Jesus Christ is "God the Son." You can't get to heaven any other way. This is sound doctrine and has stood the test of time. Here's a link to CRI called examining Muslim Apologetics if you are interested?... http://www.equip.org/free/DM822-1.htm

[TheGuyThat]

I am spiritual without religion. I never have believed in any religion being an athiest all my life with a strong scientific influence. After dropping out of year 12 to stop wasting my time and persue the lifestyle I desired. I spent an intense few years of contemplation (as im sure mosst do) and I ended up finding spirituality through reason and science. I am quite content being an athiest and a so called spiritual person. Often people call me spiritual because I act compassionately towards people, even those who oppose me.

[SuperCoolGuy]

The monotheistic point of view is the right one, there is only 1 God. When the New Testement Believers are faced with the Old Testement Jewish people, I have one concern...that they know Jesus is the Messiah. The ones that have denied Him have been deceived. There are however many Messianic Jews that know Jesus is the Messiah.

Now we're getting somewhere.

How can Christianity with the doctrine of the trinity be monotheistic? Certainly God in the OT manifests himself in many ways (burning bush, column of fire, etc...) Was that the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost in those examples. How is this different from Hinduism, where a single God has the ability to manifest itself in many, many different forms?

And why did the OT Jewish people not recognize Jesus as the real messiah. How were they to know what to look for? Most importantly:

Was the Messiah suppose to change/become the law? Where in the OT does it say that?

[kurious_kathy]

Now we're getting somewhere.

How can Christianity with the doctrine of the trinity be monotheistic? Certainly God in the OT manifests himself in many ways (burning bush, column of fire, etc...) Was that the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost in those examples. How is this different from Hinduism, where a single God has the ability to manifest itself in many, many different forms?

And why did the OT Jewish people not recognize Jesus as the real messiah. How were they to know what to look for? Most importantly:

Was the Messiah suppose to change/become the law? Where in the OT does it say that?
Well as far as your first question, there are few mentions of the pre-incarnate Christ in the OT. There is mention of the Holy Spirit as in the ones that were called prophets of God.

And as far as what I've learned about hinduism, it is based on myth, not truth. The aspect of a false prophet comes to mind when I re-think how Hinduism began.

Recognizing the Messiah has been fortold to the Jewish people all along. The prophets did fortell about Jesus's birth. Here a list incase you missied it...
How can we recognize the Messiah?
Centuries ago prophets spoke of the coming of a great leader. He would be sent by God and would be called God’s Anointed One, the Messiah. The current interest in the State of Israel awakens renewed interest in the Messiah. Here are six descriptions that identify Him:
1.He must be of the seed of Abraham. Genesis 22:18
2.He must be of the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10
3.He must be of the house of David. Isaiah 9:7
4.He must be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14
5.He must be born in Bethlehem as foretold by the prophet Micha. Micha 5:2
6.He must be God. Isaiah 9:6

Two thousand years ago, a child was born in a stable in the town of Bethlehem. He was of the seed of Abraham. He was of the tribe of Judah and the house of David. His mother was a virgin. The Messiah has come!
Who is the Messiah? The only one who meets the requirements is Jesus. As a devout Jew, Jesus lived a remarkable life. He restored sight to the blind, healed crippled limbs, and even raised the dead. He astounded the Jewish leaders of that time by His insight, wisdom, and teaching of the Scriptures. By His words and works He proved Himself to be God’s Anointed One.
Then according to the predetermined plan of God, Jesus gave Himself as God’s Passover Lamb- He died for the atonement of His people’s sins. As the prophet Isaiah predicted: “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not…But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all”
Isaiah 53:3-6
Jesus, the Redeemer, the Suffering Servant of God, died on the cross of Calvary and was buried. On the third day He rose from the dead and appeared to hundreds of witnesses.

[Pauliesonne]

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[Tricky]

Well as far as your first question, there are few mentions of the pre-incarnate Christ in the OT. There is mention of the Holy Spirit as in the ones that were called prophets of God.
Why not? I'm told about these great prophecies, yet they never mention Christ? Doesn't that strike you as people fitting the data to the prophecy rather than an accurate prophecy?
And as far as what I've learned about hinduism, it is based on myth, not truth. The aspect of a false prophet comes to mind when I re-think how Hinduism began.
A myth is simply a religion you don't believe in. Certainly there is little to recommend Christian myths over Hindi, Greek, Norse or any other myths. They have many of the same elements.

Recognizing the Messiah has been fortold to the Jewish people all along. The prophets did fortell about Jesus's birth.
You just said a couple of sentences ago that the OT didn't mention Jesus. Make up your mind.

How can we recognize the Messiah?
Centuries ago prophets spoke of the coming of a great leader. He would be sent by God and would be called God’s Anointed One, the Messiah. The current interest in the State of Israel awakens renewed interest in the Messiah. Here are six descriptions that identify Him:
1.He must be of the seed of Abraham. Genesis 22:18
2.He must be of the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10
3.He must be of the house of David. Isaiah 9:7
4.He must be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14
5.He must be born in Bethlehem as foretold by the prophet Micha. Micha 5:2
6.He must be God. Isaiah 9:6
1, 2, and 3. - Joseph was all of the above. Mary wasn't. Joseph was not Jesus' father. So 1, 2 & 3 are unfulfilled. (Just out of interest, can you tell us who Mary's father was? Her Grandfather?)

As for #4, is there any explanation why Joseph and Mary decided not to consumate their marriage? This sounds pretty suspicious to me. Was Joseph gay? Was Mary?

But of course, the whole birth myth is riddled with inconsistancies. Why was he born and proclaimed king, with attendance by wise men etc, then left alone with no info whatsoever for 30 years? How can you even be sure it's the same person? Why does the Christian birth story have so many similarities to myths that predate Christianity?

Two thousand years ago, a child was born in a stable in the town of Bethlehem. He was of the seed of Abraham. He was of the tribe of Judah and the house of David. His mother was a virgin. The Messiah has come!
Nope. See above. Here's the recipe. Take one charismatic leader who got executed for causing trouble. Rewrite or invent his family history to fullfill a bunch of old myths. Presto! You have a messiah.


Who is the Messiah? The only one who meets the requirements is Jesus. As a devout Jew, Jesus lived a remarkable life. He restored sight to the blind, healed crippled limbs, and even raised the dead. He astounded the Jewish leaders of that time by His insight, wisdom, and teaching of the Scriptures. By His words and works He proved Himself to be God’s Anointed One.
Other religions have claimed miracles to equal or surpass these. There is nothing special about Christianity. It just has a large following, even if they don't agree with each other.

Then according to the predetermined plan of God, Jesus gave Himself as God’s Passover Lamb- He died for the atonement of His people’s sins. As the prophet Isaiah predicted: “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not…But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all”
Isaiah 53:3-6
Jesus, the Redeemer, the Suffering Servant of God, died on the cross of Calvary and was buried. On the third day He rose from the dead and appeared to hundreds of witnesses.
If you believe the Bible, then you believe this is true. But can't you see, that it is not convincing unless you believe the bible. So it becomes a circular argument. If you believe it is true, then you believe it is true. To convince a skeptic, you'll need a bit of evidence other than the bible. For Christians, this has always been in short supply.

[Pauliesonne]

...and it will always be.

[HerNibs]

Kathy's statement came from here
http://www.gnpcb.org/product/663575725718

[Tricky]

Kathy's statement came from here
http://www.gnpcb.org/product/663575725718
Naughty naughty, Kathy. Even though most of us recognize that you are cutting-and-pasting lots of things here, you really ought to give credit or include the links you are using. Otherwise it looks like you are trying to take credit for creating those words. It's most commonly called plagerism. You might call it "bearing false witness."

[kmortis]

Naughty naughty, Kathy. Even though most of us recognize that you are cutting-and-pasting lots of things here, you really ought to give credit or include the links you are using. Otherwise it looks like you are trying to take credit for creating those words. It's most commonly called plagerism. You might call it "bearing false witness."
Oh no, not again (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1392167#post1392167).

[LostSoul]

As a Christian I have several concerns about false teachings and beliefs. I know I get very voicetross about that. But I once was more pagan minded myself, and it got me nowhere but confused. Now I have spritual boundaries that Jesus taught us and there is no confusion or doubt in my mind that He is the light of the world!

Speaking of was Jesus teaches us, have you read Matthew 6:1-6. You know the part where Jesus says it is the holiest of people who do not make big show of their faith but keep it private. Just something to think about.

And yes I am a Christian, one who lives by that above passage.

[Pauliesonne]

You been a naughty little girl, KK!

[Kopji]

4. Virgin Birth

בְּתוּלָה
betulah "young woman, virgin" unlike na`arah, betulah does imply virginity (Ex 22:16-17; but not definitely so that where the distinction is important it is spelled out as in Gen 24:16), a related noun means "virginity". In Amos at 8:13 "beautiful maids" are linked with bachurim "chosen youths" in 5:2 the expression is "Maid of Israel" (cities and sometimes countries are commonly personified as women in the Ancient Near East).
http://www.bible.gen.nz/amos/hebrew/beth/betulah.htm


In fewer words:

Betulah means specifically a virgin, while almah is a young woman old enough to get married, but not necessarily a virgin. Almah is better translated 'maid' or 'young lady' rather than virgin.
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2002-May/013111.html

The importance of this Isaiah controversy is not missed by Bible literalists. They can become quite incoherent over this issue:

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/virgin.html

The text is so full of poor reasoning that it is a little hard to follow. Eventually they decide that since Jesus IS our Savior, the passage in Isaiah MUST mean 'virgin'.

[Pae]

What I am not quite understanding is how can someone believe in something like ESP and souls but claim that theists are stupid. It's fine if you believe in ESP and souls but how can you claim that theists are stupid for believing in deities?

My original post was not about non-religious theists who attack religious ones. But was about the so-called ''spiritual'' people who believe in the supernatural but claim religious people, who also believe in the supernatural, are stupid. When I press this person who is ''spiritual'', they use the EXACT SAME justification for their beliefs and that is: ''Personal experience with the phenomenon.'' Religious people, specifically Christians, will claim that their god has revealed himself through the holy ghost or something along those lines. You have two people who believe they have had encounters with the supernatural and they believe those experiences. How can one condemn the other?

So all those sightings of Jesus that Christians claim they've had are hallucinations but your experience with telepathy and spirits were real? Give me a break.

[Tricky]

What I am not quite understanding is how can someone believe in something like ESP and souls but claim that theists are stupid. It's fine if you believe in ESP and souls but how can you claim that theists are stupid for believing in deities?

My original post was not about non-religious theists who attack religious ones. But was about the so-called ''spiritual'' people who believe in the supernatural but claim religious people, who also believe in the supernatural, are stupid. When I press this person who is ''spiritual'', they use the EXACT SAME justification for their beliefs and that is: ''Personal experience with the phenomenon.'' Religious people, specifically Christians, will claim that their god has revealed himself through the holy ghost or something along those lines. You have two people who believe they have had encounters with the supernatural and they believe those experiences. How can one condemn the other?

So all those sightings of Jesus that Christians claim they've had are hallucinations but your experience with telepathy and spirits were real? Give me a break.
It is exactly the same thing as one religion declaring that another is wrong. As in so many things, Ambrose Bierce (http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/m.html) summed it up well.

MYTHOLOGY, n. The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from the true accounts which it invents later.

[SuperCoolGuy]

And as far as what I've learned about hinduism, it is based on myth, not truth. The aspect of a false prophet comes to mind when I re-think how Hinduism began.

Judaism regards Jesus as a false prophet. Christianity regards Mohammed as a false prophet. Islam regards Mizra Ali Muhmammed the Bab as a false prophet. Which prophet are you referring to in regards to "how Hinduism began"?

Here are six descriptions that identify Him:
1.He must be of the seed of Abraham. Genesis 22:18
2.He must be of the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10
3.He must be of the house of David. Isaiah 9:7
4.He must be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14
5.He must be born in Bethlehem as foretold by the prophet Micha. Micha 5:2
6.He must be God. Isaiah 9:6

Thanks for this list. It didn't address my specific question, but okay:

Do you realize all Jews fulfilled 1, most fulfill 2, and a lot fulfill 3. And Jesus wouldn't have been one of them, even if Joseph technically adopted him, but hey, whatever.

Anyway, Isaiah 7:14 is referring to a child that's ultimately born in Isaiah 8:3. Isaiah 9:7 is referring to the same child. That child is Hezekiah, son of Ahaz. If you read Isaiah again, try the Revised Standard Version where they fix the Greek translation mistake and properly use "young woman" and not "virgin". Oh, and in 9:6, the hebrew is el-gibbol. It means God or "might hero". Considering Hezekiah ultimately defeated Judaic enemies and was thought to have started a long lasting peaceful reign, he is a pretty heroic figure in Jewish history.

Anyway, Isaiah 7:14, 8:3, or 53:3-6 are not messianic verses. Isaiah 53:3-6 is referring to Israel. If you read Isaiah, starting at chapter 52, it's quite clear.

Micha, however, is a messianic verse, and if you read that one, you'll see that the messiah will be a ruler over Israel and will repel the Assyrians. Did Jesus do either?

At any rate, my specifc question: Was the Messiah suppose to change/become the law? Where in the OT does it say that?

[SuperCoolGuy]

How can Christianity with the doctrine of the trinity be monotheistic? Certainly God in the OT manifests himself in many ways (burning bush, column of fire, etc...) Was that the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost in those examples. How is this different from Hinduism, where a single God has the ability to manifest itself in many, many different forms?

Now, I realize you regard Hinduism as mythical. But, my question was and is: how can a religion claim to be monotheistic if the one God has the ability to manifest itself in many forms.

Either Christianity is polytheistic or Hinduism is monotheistic. Which is it?

[Belz...]

A myth is simply a religion you don't believe in. Certainly there is little to recommend Christian myths over Hindi, Greek, Norse or any other myths. They have many of the same elements.

Plus, the other myths are much more fun. Look at all the greek gods and their antics. Gotta love 'em.

[kmortis]

Plus, the other myths are much more fun. Look at all the greek gods and their antics. Gotta love 'em.
For the money, the Norse win hands down. Loki, getting out of a sticky situation by morphing into a mare, then getting basically raped by a stallion, then Lokin giving birth to Sleiplnir. hee-hee.

[kurious_kathy]

Either Christianity is polytheistic or Hinduism is monotheistic. Which is it?
Christianity believes in one God so it is considered monotheistic. The hindu religion was started by another false prophet! Why do they worship cows?

The Polytheistic point of views are people who believe in more than 1 God. Here's an interesting article you may want to consider...
http://www.refugeministries.cc/aboutus.asp?id06=175

[SuperCoolGuy]

And why did the OT Jewish people not recognize Jesus as the real messiah. How were they to know what to look for? Most importantly:

Was the Messiah suppose to change/become the law? Where in the OT does it say that?

Hi again Kathy. Any thoughts I what I was asking about before (quoted above).

[SuperCoolGuy]

Christianity believes in one God so it is considered monotheistic. The hindu religion was started by another false prophet! Why do they worship cows?

The Polytheistic point of views are people who believe in more than 1 God. Here's an interesting article you may want to consider...
http://www.refugeministries.cc/aboutus.asp?id06=175

Kathy, can/does the Christian God take more than one form?

[kurious_kathy]

Hi again Kathy. Any thoughts I what I was asking about before (quoted above).
Hi SCG,hope all things are good with you. As far as getting back to scripture supporting Jesus came to enforce the law read this..Matt 5:17-20 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

And as far as fullfillment of prophecy that was fullfiled by Christ's birth...
Centuries ago prophets spoke of the coming of a great leader. He would be sent by God and would be called God’s Anointed One, the Messiah. The current interest in the State of Israel awakens renewed interest in the Messiah. Here are six descriptions that identify Him:
1.He must be of the seed of Abraham. Genesis 22:18
2.He must be of the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10
3.He must be of the house of David. Isaiah 9:7
4.He must be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14
5.He must be born in Bethlehem as foretold by the prophet Micha. Micha 5:2
6.He must be God. Isaiah 9:6

Two thousand years ago, a child was born in a stable in the town of Bethlehem. He was of the seed of Abraham. He was of the tribe of Judah and the house of David. His mother was a virgin. The Messiah has come!
Who is the Messiah? The only one who meets the requirements is Jesus. As a devout Jew, Jesus lived a remarkable life. He restored sight to the blind, healed crippled limbs, and even raised the dead. He astounded the Jewish leaders of that time by His insight, wisdom, and teaching of the Scriptures. By His words and works He proved Himself to be God’s Anointed One.
Then according to the predetermined plan of God, Jesus gave Himself as God’s Passover Lamb- He died for the atonement of His people’s sins. As the prophet Isaiah predicted: “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not…But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all”
Isaiah 53:3-6
Jesus, the Redeemer, the Suffering Servant of God, died on the cross of Calvary and was buried. On the third day He rose from the dead and appeared to hundreds of witnesses.
By the resurrection, God clearly demonstrated that Jesus is the Messiah.

[SuperCoolGuy]

Why do they worship cows?

Hindus do not worship cows. They consider cows sacred and take great strides to allow cows an easy, happy life.

Its like taking your shoes off before entering a temple or walking on a certain piece of land considered sacred. People give great respect to those things they consider sacred.

[SuperCoolGuy]

Hi SCG,hope all things are good with you. As far as getting back to scripture supporting Jesus came to enforce the law read this..Matt 5:17-20 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So the law is not to be abolished or changed, right?

[wolfgirl]

But of course, the whole birth myth is riddled with inconsistancies. Why was he born and proclaimed king, with attendance by wise men etc, then left alone with no info whatsoever for 30 years? How can you even be sure it's the same person?My husband has brought this up, too, and it's something I'd never really thought about, but it's a very valid point. When he was born, people came bearing gifts and proclaiming him the son of god. But then 30 years later, he's just a carpenter. When he tries to say he's the son of god, nobody believes him (well, almost nobody). Did they just forget or what?

It seems to me like the birth story is just a back-filled story created to give this Jesus guy a more compelling background. We're more likely to believe he was the messiah if he had a star over his manger directing people to his birthplace.

[LostSoul]

Christianity believes in one God so it is considered monotheistic. The hindu religion was started by another false prophet! Why do they worship cows?

Because when they are grilled correctly they are quite tasty...:D

[kurious_kathy]

It seems to me like the birth story is just a back-filled story created to give this Jesus guy a more compelling background. We're more likely to believe he was the messiah if he had a star over his manger directing people to his birthplace.
Hi Wolfgirl, I know this is a bit of a dated thread, but I was just thinking about what you commented on and even though we don't hear much about Jesus as a child after the story of the birth, there are a couple of things that come to my mind in scripture like when he was circumcised as an 8 year old baby mentioned in Luke 2:21...
Presented at the Temple
And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.
Oh yay and let us not forget how Mary and Joseph had to flee from the wrath of King Herod when he had all those baby boys killed to try to get rid of the threat of the true "King of the Jews." Herod thought he could out smart God and keep himself powerful. I guess he died shortly after killing all those innocent children. I'm not sure if we were told Jesus's age when that happened? I'll have to look it up!
And the time when his parents brought him to town to celebrate passover and he stayed behind without his parents knowing it at I think it was 12 years old. I am still finding the scripture ref here. I just remember when his parents realized that he did not come home with them when they returned to the temple to get him and he said....why are you upset with me, did you not know I needed to be in my Fathers house.Oh I found it...
Luke 2:48-50 When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You." And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?" But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them.


There are a few things about Jesus mentioned as a child being the Son of God. Even though we know God's timing for Jesus to be in ministry was from 30 years to 33 years of age.
I unlike you find it absolutely amazing that God became a man and lived among us before He died on the cross to save us. He did not have to do it, He chose to do it! I love Him for it!

[RandFan]

I unlike you find it absolutely amazing that God became a man and lived among us before He died on the cross to save us. He did not have to do it, He chose to do it! I love Him for it! And like, all those questions were hurting my head so I thought I would just avoid them and bring back an old thread for a chance to talk about Jesus.

You are transparent kathy and you believe in a silly fairy tale. That's fine. All of my family believe in it too but they don't behave in an obnoxious and dishonest fashion. We don't come here to listen to you twaddle on about the precious baby Jesus having his penis snipped. We are here for intelligent dialog with honest people who have the decency to answer questions and behave in a grown-up fashion.

Spare us the cock and bull. It's embarrassing.

[kurious_kathy]

And like, all those questions were hurting my head so I thought I would just avoid them and bring back an old thread for a chance to talk about Jesus.

You are transparent kathy and you believe in a silly fairy tale. That's fine. All of my family believe in it too but they don't behave in an obnoxious and dishonest fashion. We don't come here to listen to you twaddle on about the precious baby Jesus having his penis snipped. We are here for intelligent dialog with honest people who have the decency to answer questions and behave in a grown-up fashion.

Spare us the cock and bull. It's embarrassing.
Actually RandFan, you are mistaken. My God is very much alive, and his word is the sword that cuts through the BS in this world to bring people to the realization that we all need Him. If you want a relationship with God all you need is Jesus. He is the living word and prophecies fullfiled!

You make me think of a t-shirt I had gotten made for my husband to wear. He has told me sometimes he gets dirty looks from people when he wears it but I like it even though it's a bold statement. Are you ready, it says...
"For your place in eternity where do you prefer, smoking, or non-smoking?"

[RandFan]

Actually RandFan, you are mistaken. My God is very much alive, and his word is the sword that cuts through the BS in this world to bring people to the realization that we all need Him. If you want a relationship with God all you need is Jesus. He is the living word and prophecies fullfiled!

You make me think of a t-shirt I had gotten made for my husband to wear. He has told me sometimes he gets dirty looks from people when he wears it but I like it even though it's a bold statement. Are you ready, it says...
"For your place in eternity where do you prefer, smoking, or non-smoking?" That's it? You want to scare me? Sorry Kathy, I spent the first half of my life believing in a fairytail. I choose rational thought over magical thinking.

[kurious_kathy]

I would never want to scare you. I would just recommend maybe trying to stay a bit more open to the idea that everything is possible with God, and to re-evaluate your opinion of who Jesus really is and why he came?
He loves us all so much he died for us! It's no fairy tale. Jesus really is the way, truth, and life. I don't want to get too preachy with you about it. I just want you to know how awesome the love of God truely is.
God help us all to have our hearts softened, eyes opened, and ears to hear!

[Complexity]

Quit preaching, you troll.