PDA

View Full Version : Yeshua or Emmanuel?


LostAngeles
31st January 2006, 12:02 AM
It was just mentioned over in IRC that The Savior's name was supposedly supposed to be, "Emmanuel." The thing is, he wasn't. He was named, "Yeshua." So this begs the question, what if Yeshua wasn't actually The Savior? What if someone named Emmanuel shows up and actually, um, saves?

Would Yeshua then be a false savior or perhaps, like, the Beta savior?

Hawk one
31st January 2006, 12:11 AM
If he's only Beta, that would explain the second coming; it's merely the retail version. I hope he's not going to be expensive, I can't afford spending much money on messiahs these days.

triadboy
31st January 2006, 07:08 AM
It was just mentioned over in IRC that The Savior's name was supposedly supposed to be, "Emmanuel." The thing is, he wasn't.

In Isaiah, the name of a child born to the King is called Emmanuel. Matthew postulates that that child is a prediction of the birth of the Messiah. It was a feeble attempt.


He was named, "Yeshua." So this begs the question, what if Yeshua wasn't actually The Savior? What if someone named Emmanuel shows up and actually, um, saves?
Would Yeshua then be a false savior or perhaps, like, the Beta savior?

Your point is moot since there is no savior.

rharbers
31st January 2006, 08:07 AM
It was just mentioned over in IRC that The Savior's name was supposedly supposed to be, "Emmanuel." The thing is, he wasn't. He was named, "Yeshua." So this begs the question, what if Yeshua wasn't actually The Savior? What if someone named Emmanuel shows up and actually, um, saves?

Would Yeshua then be a false savior or perhaps, like, the Beta savior?

From Hebrew: Imanuel; "God with us". Iesous (Jesus) is Greek from the Hebrew; Yeshua, which is a contraction of Yehoshua (Joshua) which means, "help of Jehovah". I remember reading somewhere, years ago, that Jehovah was a Celtic God of War. That's why the King James writers used it for the Tetragrammaton, YHWH. That's just what I read.

Ossai
31st January 2006, 11:23 AM
triadboy is correct there was no savior. Jesus/Emmanuel/Yeshua did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

Ossai

Z
31st January 2006, 11:38 AM
What I always thought was that Emmanual, like Christ, was a title or descriptive term, not a name. I also believed that the child we call Jesus, born as he was to parents of distinguished royal Hebrew lineage, was probably forced into a role that would indicate to the general Hebrew populace that he might be the appointed savior, by socially aspiring parents. But when the child grew and grew sick of a corrupt and morally bankrupt Jewish church, he rebelled and began teaching another way.

After all, he failed to free Israel from her oppressors.

Iacchus
31st January 2006, 11:42 AM
Emanuel Swedenborg? (http://www.swedenborg.com)

Z
31st January 2006, 11:46 AM
Emanuel Swedenborg? (http://www.swedenborg.com)

I used to scoff at this notion in its entirety. Now I just scoff at Swedenborg himself.

It's quite possible that references to Emmanual and to the Christ in some parts of the Bible are allegorical or referring to a purely spiritual, mystical event. Only the Gospels seem to indicate a real Jesus, but other letters and books could as easily fit with an interpretation of a spiritual Savior, rather than a tangible one.

But these would be events for the first few decades of the Christian era, not the 1700s. Swedenborg's sad tale of his descent from intelligence to lunacy is enough to make a rational man cry.

Iacchus
31st January 2006, 11:54 AM
So, anything pertaining to Jesus, Yeshua or Emmanuel is total lunacy? And yes, I do have a pond full of goldfish, and they seem to get along just fine. ;) While I guess the guy who wrote the Book of Revelation must have been a real wacko, eh?

LordoftheLeftHand
31st January 2006, 12:14 PM
If he's only Beta, that would explain the second coming; it's merely the retail version. I hope he's not going to be expensive, I can't afford spending much money on messiahs these days.

Yeah but the real question is will they port it for linux?

LLH

Iacchus
31st January 2006, 12:27 PM
But these would be events for the first few decades of the Christian era, not the 1700s. Swedenborg's sad tale of his descent from intelligence to lunacy is enough to make a rational man cry.It is reported that Swedenborg represented the Second Coming (http://www.swedenborg.com/AboutSwedenborg-KeyConceptsInSwedenborgsTheology.asp#radicalclaim) and, the fulfillment of the Book of Revelation.

Bob Klase
31st January 2006, 12:34 PM
So, anything pertaining to Jesus, Yeshua or Emmanuel is total lunacy? And yes, I do have a pond full of goldfish, and they seem to get along just fine. ;)

Teach them to read the bible. They'll be starting a war in no time.

Genesius
31st January 2006, 12:34 PM
It is reported that Swedenborg represented the Second Coming (http://www.swedenborg.com/AboutSwedenborg-KeyConceptsInSwedenborgsTheology.asp#radicalclaim) and, the fulfillment of the Book of Revelation.

It is also reported that you are a raving loony.

I consider that report to have a much better chance of being correct.

LostAngeles
31st January 2006, 01:49 PM
It is reported that Swedenborg represented the Second Coming (http://www.swedenborg.com/AboutSwedenborg-KeyConceptsInSwedenborgsTheology.asp#radicalclaim) and, the fulfillment of the Book of Revelation.

No, what I'm actually talking about is if Yeshua was not named Emmanuel, then the initial prophecy was never fulfilled. Now unless this like the Nyzarian Prophecy about Angel's son on Angel where they managed to both cheat and fulfill the prophecy simultaneously, there never was a First Coming.

Now, I'm coming from the base assumption that the prophecy exists, is true, and that there is a God to work with this idea. These aren't actually my beliefs, I'm just using them as a basis for this train of thought. I'm finding this a very curious and fascinating idea that the savior wasn't the savior.

Which also leads to, what if Yeshua was Savior 1.0 and God decided to scrap the whole idea since we screwed it up?

LordoftheLeftHand
31st January 2006, 03:10 PM
Which also leads to, what if Yeshua was Savior 1.0 and God decided to scrap the whole idea since we screwed it up?

Yeah considering how the last one met a sticky end...

LLH

ruach1
31st January 2006, 04:37 PM
It was just mentioned over in IRC that The Savior's name was supposedly supposed to be, "Emmanuel." The thing is, he wasn't. He was named, "Yeshua." So this begs the question, what if Yeshua wasn't actually The Savior? What if someone named Emmanuel shows up and actually, um, saves?

Would Yeshua then be a false savior or perhaps, like, the Beta savior?
Nothing will ever save Beta. DVD's are here to stay! :D

lylfyl
31st January 2006, 04:45 PM
The Sunday School answers I learned always emphasized what it translated as: "God is with us". They downplayed the actual name, as if Isaiah was bestowing a grandiose title.

If it truly was meant as a title, then I would not expect the parents to name their child "Emmanuel". Superman wasn't born 'Superman', was he? (I mean, who would name their child such a grandiose name like Prince, Jermajesty or Moxie Crimefighter?) The bible gives Jesus LOTS (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Isa/9/6.html) of titles (http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jesustitles.htm) that never get used again.

Problem is, there are a lot of hebrew names with similar meanings (-EL meaning God), so it wasn't necessarily that unusual of a name:

GABRIEL = God is my strength ... a combination of the root g-b-r, meaning powerful, mighty or strong, united with el, meaning God.
EMMANUEL = God is with us... a combination of the root m-m-n, meaning to be with our exterior forms, united with el, meaning God.
DANIEL = God is judge... a combination of the root d-n, meaning that which characterizes or judges, united with el, meaning God.
ELIJAH = God is Jehovah... a combination of the root el, meaning God and jah, meaning Jehovah.
EZEKIEL = God is Strong, or God Strengthens
RAPHAEL = whom God has healed
Source (http://wahiduddin.net/words/99_pages/app_d_hebrew.htm)


So the answer would be if Emmanuel was a (common) name at Isaiah's time. Unfortunately, I don't know how to search for that without getting tons of Christian references.

"And He shall be called Ed".

(Off topic, but discovered when googling for -EL names: Nicholas Cage named his son Kal-El. )

Meadmaker
31st January 2006, 06:39 PM
Superman wasn't born 'Superman', was he?


(Off topic, but discovered when googling for -EL names: Nicholas Cage named his son Kal-El. )

I'm pretty sure Superman was born Jor-El. Maybe that's Hebrew for "God Leaps over tall buildings in a single bound." Clark Kent was his adopted name.

(Or was Jor-El his dad? I'm pretty sure there's an El in it.)

slingblade
31st January 2006, 08:06 PM
I mean, who would name their child such a grandiose name like Prince, Jermajesty or Moxie Crimefighter?

My, how quickly they forget.

The one and only Gloved One, of course.

Hawk one
31st January 2006, 08:08 PM
I'm pretty sure Superman was born Jor-El. Maybe that's Hebrew for "God Leaps over tall buildings in a single bound." Clark Kent was his adopted name.

(Or was Jor-El his dad? I'm pretty sure there's an El in it.)

Superman is Kal-El, and Jor-El is Superman's biological father.

There, now that's at least cleared up.

ruach1
31st January 2006, 09:08 PM
Meadmaker
I'm pretty sure Superman was born Jor-El. Maybe that's Hebrew for "God Leaps over tall buildings in a single bound." Clark Kent was his adopted name. (Or was Jor-El his dad? I'm pretty sure there's an El in it).
Actually, Mead, you're on the right track. The creators of Superman were Clevelanders who were Jewish, and the "el" suffixes of the names of the Kryptonians of mention probably were influenced by Hebrew nomenclature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Shuster :teacher:

ceo_esq
31st January 2006, 09:13 PM
It was just mentioned over in IRC that The Savior's name was supposedly supposed to be, "Emmanuel." The thing is, he wasn't. He was named, "Yeshua." So this begs the question, what if Yeshua wasn't actually The Savior?

As someone already suggested, it's difficult to say whether the the author of Isaiah actually believed the Savior would be given the name Emmanuel by his parents, or if it would be an honorific, or a grandiose description, or something of that genre.

(And although the matter of Jesus' name might logically prompt your question, I don't think this technically begs the question (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html).)


I remember reading somewhere, years ago, that Jehovah was a Celtic God of War. That's why the King James writers used it for the Tetragrammaton, YHWH. That's just what I read.

This doesn't sound right to me. Discussing the etymology of Jehovah, the Oxford English Dictionary describes the word as:

The English and common European representation, since the 16th c., of the Hebrew divine name Yhwh. This word (the 'sacred tetragrammaton') having come to be considered by the Jews too sacred for utterance, was pointed in the O.T. by the Masoretes with the vowels ... of adonai, as a direction to the reader to substitute ADONAI for the 'ineffable name'; which is actually done by Jerome in the Vulgate translation of Exodus vi. 3, and hence by Wyclif. Students of Hebrew at the Revival of Letters took these vowels as those of the word Yhwh (IHUH, JHVH) itself, which was accordingly transliterated in Latin spelling as IeHoVa(H), i.e. Iehoua(h. It is now held that the original name was IaHUe(H), i.e. Jahve(h, or with the English values of the letters, Yahwe(h, and one or other of these forms is now generally used by writers upon the religion of the Hebrews. The word has generally been understood to be a derivative of the verb hwh to be, to exist, as if 'he that is', 'the self-existent', or 'the one ever coming into manifestation'; this origin is now disputed, but no conjectured derivation which has been substituted has found general acceptance.

There is also an extensive discussion of the origins of the name over at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehovah).


Jesus/Emmanuel/Yeshua did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

To which prophecies are you referring?


Only the Gospels seem to indicate a real Jesus, but other letters and books could as easily fit with an interpretation of a spiritual Savior, rather than a tangible one.

Are you referring to the Old Testament, the New Testament, or both? Certainly the letters attributed to Paul (or most of them, at any rate) do not easily lend themselves to an "intangible Jesus" interpretation, as discussed here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1328378#post1328378).

LostAngeles
31st January 2006, 09:38 PM
As someone already suggested, it's difficult to say whether the the author of Isaiah actually believed the Savior would be given the name Emmanuel by his parents, or if it would be an honorific, or a grandiose description, or something of that genre.

(And although the matter of Jesus' name might logically prompt your question, I don't think this technically begs the question (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html).)


It was begging me to question it, damn it! :D (which is what I meant. I reinvent English constantly. That's glory for you.)

Z
31st January 2006, 10:07 PM
Good discussion of this topic:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm

lylfyl
1st February 2006, 01:02 AM
I mean, who would name their child such a grandiose name like Prince, Jermajesty or Moxie Crimefighter?


My, how quickly they forget.

The one and only Gloved One, of course.

Actually, I was thinking of the Artist-Once-Again-Known-As-Prince, who as far as I can tell, was born Prince. But you're right, Jacko did name his son Prince. Twice.

Jermaine Jackson named his child Jermajesty.

And if Moxie Crimefighter is anything like her father (http://www.pennandteller.com/), she won't be headed for obscurity.

Closer to the original topic: I really need to explore that ReligiousTolerance site more. I know almost nothing about Mithraism or Zoroastorism.

LW
1st February 2006, 10:13 AM
To which prophecies are you referring?

Micah 5:5-6 would be a good guess. Many Bible translations include a caption between the first sentence of 5:5 and the rest to separate the bit about ruling Assyria with sword from the "Betlehem Ephrata" prophesy, but I don't really see how the "He" in "He will deliver us from the Assyrian" could refer to anybody else than the Lord of Peace mentioned in the first five verses of the chapter.