Georgians Plan Whites-Only Prom Party

Newsday article. (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-separate-proms,0,2257505.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnationworld% 2Dheadlines)

ALBANY, Ga. -- A year after holding their first integrated prom, some students at Taylor County High School have decided to again hold a separate, private party for whites only.

While many whites say they still plan to attend next week's integrated prom, the decision to hold the whites-only prom this Friday saddened senior Gerica McCrary, who helped organize last year's dance.

"I cried," said McCrary, who is black. "The black juniors said, 'Our prom is open to everyone. If you want to come, come.'"

Thought you guys would have a ball with this one. :D

[Tony]

I really don’t see the big deal. Blacks have their own channel, their own dorms, their own frats, their own black history month, their own caucus in congress, their own special interest group, and affirmative action. It's only fair that a few white kids get to have their own dance before they enter into a society that sees them as a dispensable.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Tony
I really don’t see the big deal. Blacks have their own channel, their own dorms, their own frats, their own black history month, their own caucus in congress, their own special interest group, and affirmative action. It's only fair that a few white kids get to have their own dance before they enter into a society that sees them as a dispensable.

Now we will. I honestly didn't think anyone would defend it, except maybe hammy, who would like to see the blacks serving food and drinks, and opening the doors of the stretch limos.

[Richard G]

Freedom of association is a gauranteed right.

You didn't get invited? Boo hoo.

[Tony]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Now we will. I honestly didn't think anyone would defend it, except maybe hammy, who would like to see the blacks serving food and drinks, and opening the doors of the stretch limos.

I didn’t necessarily defend it. I find racism of any kind revolting, but, if all of those black only institutions are acceptable, than so is this.

[Baggle]

If it gets school help or funding of ANY sort, including holding the event at a school facility, using school administrators, etc, then it should not be allowed to go on at all.

If it's a completely private party, well, that's disgusting and revolting, but it's their right to be that ignorant.

I live in an area where my race(white or Euro ancestry) is in the minority. If I were EVER discriminated against in this way by the majority(Hispanic) where I live, I would competely go off and let everybody know about this. It would be completely unacceptable. However, I strongly believe that nothing of the sort will ever happen in this area, and that is one thing that actually does cheer me up about this place.

-Baggle

[corplinx]

The funny thing is, there are probably whites-only prom parties all over the northeast, they just dont call them "whites only". There just wont happen to be any blacks at the parties.

[shecky]

Originally posted by Tony


I didn’t necessarily defend it. I find racism of any kind revolting, but, if all of those black only institutions are acceptable, than so is this.

This is presumably a public school. Yes, a separate but equal prom would most likely be a no-no. Get over it.

[Tony]

Originally posted by shecky


This is presumably a public school. Yes, a separate but equal prom would most likely be a no-no. Get over it.


Get over what?

[Skeptic]

There are such parties every day all over the US: want to bet that most parties in affluent DC suburbs, or in your local country club, are (in effect) "white only"? Of course, there are also "black only" parties going on--on the BET (Black Entertainment Television) channel, if nowhere else; "jew only" parties in your local synagogue, "Muslim only" ones in mosques, "gay only" ones in gay bars, you name it.

There isn't a law--and there shouldn't be one--that FORCES people to associate with others of different races and creeds on all occasions. Freedom of association is a right; you have a right to not associate with black people (or with white ones) if you don't want to.

It doesn't seem to me, actually, to be much of a "racist" statement by the students, either. Many of the students, according to the article, DID go to the "mixed" prom; a blatant racist would not participate in such "evil race-mixing". It looks more like a reverse of the "all the black kids are sitting together in the cafeteria" sort of behavior--not avoiding others of a different color because you despise them, but just because you are more comfortable with those you consider "your own kind." Not the most noble sentiment in the world, perhaps, but not exactly a neo-nazi one, either.

By the way, from the article, it's pretty clear that it's a party set up by the STUDENTS, not by the school, at their own expense and in their own place. If that is the case, then whether or not the school recieves public funding is irrelevant, since it isn't involved in any way. To give an analogy, the government cannot discriminate, but that doesn't mean every white government employee HAS to invite black people to parties in his house and vice versa.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
By the way, from the article, it's pretty clear that it's a party set up by the STUDENTS, not by the school, at their own expense and in their own place. If that is the case, then whether or not the school recieves public funding is irrelevant, since it isn't involved in any way. To give an analogy, the government cannot discriminate, but that doesn't mean every white government employee HAS to invite black people to parties in his house and vice versa.

If you read the article, this was set up as a separate prom, with white people going to it, but not the other school organised one.

If people want to set up a party, who cares, but they set this up as a 'separate but equal' prom.

[shecky]

You're certainly correct. They have a right to hold their own prom. However, it seems clear that a whites only prom in this context is clearly different than the average mosque, synagogue, BET, or gay bar. I find the idea that some white students deciding to hold a whites only prom apart from the school prom, the first integrated in 31 years, particularly disgusting. The fact that some white students attend both I find no indecation of anything.

The difference is this. A party for your friends may be end up being only white because your friends may only be white by coincidence (neighbors, coworkers, classmates, etc). A party because they're white goes has nothing to do with coincidence. This party could even be composed of people who dislike each other. But it still takes place because they're white. That's beyond dumb. That's racist.

[Tony]

Its no more racist than any blacks-only organization.

[shecky]

Originally posted by Tony
Its no more racist than any blacks-only organization.

As a general statement, I disagree. Your examples are weak. To make comparisons, it's like saying the Boy Scouts are sexist, or the Catholic Church is anti-semetic, or the Emerald society is anti Dutch. There's a difference between being exclusive and being racist. I'm sure there are black-only organizations that are racist. But that doesn't mean that all black-only organizations are.

[Tony]

Originally posted by shecky


As a general statement, I disagree. Your examples are weak. To make comparisons, it's like saying the Boy Scouts are sexist, or the Catholic Church is anti-semetic, or the Emerald society is anti Dutch. There's a difference between being exclusive and being racist. I'm sure there are black-only organizations that are racist. But that doesn't mean that all black-only organizations are.

Your examples don’t hold (i don’t know what the emerald society is, so I cant comment). The Boy Scouts have The Girl Scouts as an organization to complement it. The Catholic Church has the Jewish "Church" (or whatever you call it). Is there an NAAWP to counter the NAACP? Is there a White Congressional Caucus to counter the Black Congressional Caucus? Is there a White History Month? White only dorms on college campuses? White only frats? Is there a White Entertainment Television? Is there an affirmative action equivalent for whites that legally discriminates against blacks?

[More Evolved-er]

Is there a White Congressional Caucus to counter the Black Congressional Caucus? Is there a White History Month? White only dorms on college campuses? White only frats? Is there a White Entertainment Television?

I think the formation of the black counterparts to the (supposedly race-neutral) Congressional Caucus, fraternities, and television stations are made with the implication (perhaps with some merit) that these organizations are prodominantly white to a great extent. Not to say that they are non-inclusive of blacks, but blacks are often underrepresented in these areas, and the formation of the "black" version is meant to counterbalance this.

But I'm white, so I could be way off...

[corplinx]

I thought about this thread while I was working out at the gym. I have come to the conclusion that we are overlooking the obvious. Its no race! Its culture!

The white students and blacks students probably have different musical tastes in general and slightly different dance styles. I remember the negroes at my school hating the "white" music selections that made up most of the prom music. We had an evenly split student body and the prom probably would have been different if there had been two ballrooms each with a different music theme. Two ballrooms, students moving back and forth between them, everyone having a good time.

The students of course are trying to remedy these differences and I think we should realize the motivation isnt purely racial. Its georgia were talking about, I assume the black kids dont want to dance to a fiddle and the white kids dont want to dance to some of the urban music.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by corplinx
I thought about this thread while I was working out at the gym. I have come to the conclusion that we are overlooking the obvious. Its no race! Its culture!

The white students and blacks students probably have different musical tastes in general and slightly different dance styles. I remember the negroes at my school hating the "white" music selections that made up most of the prom music. We had an evenly split student body and the prom probably would have been different if there had been two ballrooms each with a different music theme. Two ballrooms, students moving back and forth between them, everyone having a good time.

The students of course are trying to remedy these differences and I think we should realize the motivation isnt purely racial. Its georgia were talking about, I assume the black kids dont want to dance to a fiddle and the white kids dont want to dance to some of the urban music.

I don't think that having a party where you like your own music is the problem. (Can't stand dance, but like jazz, both black inventions). The prom is a formal part of the graduation from school. As such, to hold two different functions, for the same purpose, one whites only, is a snub to a good cultural practice of having a special occasion to mark leaving the school and becoming an adult. I am sure if there was a negotiation, a compromise music list could have been drawn up.

[Cain]

I would defend the right to have a "Whites only" party, but I'm so godd*mn tired of this "Black history month," "Black Entertainment" canard.

Every month is white history month. Nearly every channel caters to whites (Yes, BET is the creation of corporate America to capture a niche in the marketplace. It's not apart of some unholy multi-cultural alliance).

I think the formation of the black counterparts to the (supposedly race-neutral) Congressional Caucus, fraternities, and television stations are made with the implication (perhaps with some merit) that these organizations are prodominantly white to a great extent. Not to say that they are non-inclusive of blacks, but blacks are often underrepresented in these areas, and the formation of the "black" version is meant to counterbalance this.

That's exactly right. Most of the truly powerful institutions in this country (the United States) are controlled by whites (predominantly male), and have been controlled by whites for hundreds of years.

[schplurg]

Is there a White Congressional Caucus to counter the Black Congressional Caucus? Is there a White History Month? White only dorms on college campuses? White only frats? Is there a White Entertainment Television? Is there an affirmative action equivalent for whites that legally discriminates against blacks?
Yes, it is called the Ku Klux Klan. The "ultimate" club for whites.

I admit I feel the same way sometimes. We see the American Music Awards, then we see the Black Music Awards, etc. I remember someone (Lionel Ritchie?) won Best Artist for BOTH award shows, and I thought that that was somehow wrong. But not too many years ago the blacks had no choice but to do their own things...us whites wouldn't let them join our clubs. So I can see how a lot of these events and organizations were necessary.

Then you have your Jesse Jacksons of the world. They, in my opinion, perpetuate the division between the races. In fact, a few years ago a group of blacks filed a lawsuit against the "rev'rnd" on the grounds that he didn't represent them and their cause, as he claimed to do. It was a frivolous lawsuit but I thought it was interesting, and pretty cool ;)

Hopefully, someday, we won't see these different shows and events for the different races because nobody will feel they are necessary. Many of them may not be necessary now, but are still in operation because they've been around so long, like a tradition.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I don't think that having a party where you like your own music is the problem. (Can't stand dance, but like jazz, both black inventions). The prom is a formal part of the graduation from school. As such, to hold two different functions, for the same purpose, one whites only, is a snub to a good cultural practice of having a special occasion to mark leaving the school and becoming an adult. I am sure if there was a negotiation, a compromise music list could have been drawn up.

Actually, I seem to recollect proms from large senior classes where mutliple ballrooms with different music have been used.

As to what you say, I don't disagree. I merely brought up those points to try to expand the dialogue past the white/black issue.

[JAR]

There's a saying:

You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink it.

[JAR]

I didn't go to any of the dances at my high school. I feel like I didn't miss out.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Tony


Your examples don’t hold (i don’t know what the emerald society is, so I cant comment). The Boy Scouts have The Girl Scouts as an organization to complement it. The Catholic Church has the Jewish "Church" (or whatever you call it). Is there an NAAWP to counter the NAACP? Is there a White Congressional Caucus to counter the Black Congressional Caucus? Is there a White History Month? White only dorms on college campuses? White only frats? Is there a White Entertainment Television? Is there an affirmative action equivalent for whites that legally discriminates against blacks?

Good point. Interestingly white people almost never complain about themselves being negatively stereotyped. So far portrayals of rascist white people are still legal for movies to have.

I think its okay to stereotype any group of people. Perhaps if everyone is negatively stereotyped, it will balance out.

[Jon_in_london]

Damn Georgians! The Elizabethans would never have done something like this!

[Denise]

Can we bring up how stupid the whole idea of Prom is anyhow?

[Thanz]

[egregious stereotype alert]

The whites were simply tired of the blacks laughing at their pathetic attempts to "dance" while having absolutely no sense of rythm.

[/egregious stereotype alert]

[BillyTK]

Well these numpties are certainly able to exercise their right to freedom of association. I just wonder how far they followed it through, maybe by not playing any music of black origin? Some Beethoven followed by a segueway of folk music to get on down to?

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by JAR


Good point. Interestingly white people almost never complain about themselves being negatively stereotyped. So far portrayals of rascist white people are still legal for movies to have.

Akshirley, over here in Europe we can get a little hot under the collar about our representations in Hollywood cinema as comedy figures, or villains, or both. But then we just shake our heads and say, "Ah, those crazy Americans!"

[Skeptical Greg]

Juniors are charged with planning the prom each year and last year they decided to have just one dance -- the first integrated prom in 31 years in the rural Georgia county 150 miles south of Atlanta.

Interesting what is being focused on here..


Last year, was the first integrated prom in 31 years?

Looks like they did a good job of keeping that out of the news...

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony
I really don’t see the big deal. Blacks have their own channel, their own dorms, their own frats, their own black history month, their own caucus in congress, their own special interest group, and affirmative action. It's only fair that a few white kids get to have their own dance before they enter into a society that sees them as a dispensable.

There is White only channel. Its called NBC.


You see when someone talks about "white -only" its an exclusionary term. Basically meaning no minorities because "whites" in general is this large group which really doesnt have much of a shared culture other than they are not minorities.

When you have "Black" channel. Its more of an ethnic focus. Just like having the Spanish channel or Portuguese channel.

Ever notice no one complains about St Patricks day. Cause its not a "white" holiday, its an Irish holiday. Same would apply if there was the Irish prom or Italian prom, no one would care cause they are celebrating there specific ethnicity.

In the above black examples of organizations, Im sure you would find that although they have a black focus they would also be accepting of whites who wanted to particpate. I dont beleive white-only organiztions are that accepting.

[shecky]

Originally posted by Tony


Your examples don’t hold (i don’t know what the emerald society is, so I cant comment). The Boy Scouts have The Girl Scouts as an organization to complement it. The Catholic Church has the Jewish "Church" (or whatever you call it). Is there an NAAWP to counter the NAACP? Is there a White Congressional Caucus to counter the Black Congressional Caucus? Is there a White History Month? White only dorms on college campuses? White only frats? Is there a White Entertainment Television? Is there an affirmative action equivalent for whites that legally discriminates against blacks?

This still doesn't wash. Are you saying the existince of a counter organization means a organization is no longer racist? The KKK is still a racist group regardless if there's a comparable black-only hate group or not.

The Boy Scouts still discriminates on the basis of sex, the Catholic Church on the basis of religion. That doesn't mean they are anti-female or anti-semetic, respectively. Even if there were no Girl Scouts organization or the Catholic Church were the only game in town.

FWIW, the Emerald society is some kind of Irish-American fraternal group. That doesn't automatically make it racist (though I must say I know nothing of the group's activities or beliefs). Even if they don't allow Germans or Russians, etc to become members.

Regarding White Entertainment Television or White History Month, I invite you to pursue these ideas and observe what kind of support you get. In this context, I suspect the word, "White" will largely be interpreted as a white supremacist key word by both proponents and opponents. I don't think there would be any problem with a Irish TV network, or a Italian TV network, as these are specific ethnic groups.

[Skeptic]

Is there a White History Month?

The "Onion" had an answer to that. Its March 1st issue ("Black History Month" in the US is February) had the healine: "White History Year Resumes".

[JAR]

Originally posted by Denise
Can we bring up how stupid the whole idea of Prom is anyhow?

Thank you.

[Skeptical Greg]

Bill O'Reilly Is raising Holy Hell about this, on his radio show.


He is condemning the local Taylor County school administration, particularly the principal, who so far, is taking a 'No comment' position; for not publicly condemning the attitude of the students and their families, who are putting this together.

Man, it is people like this (the students), who give decent bigots everywhere a bad name.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Man, it is people like this (the students), who give decent bigots everywhere a bad name.

Ain't that the truth.

I have a vision for the future that calls for a kinder and gentler bigot.

[Tmy]

How can a white only prom be ok, but my "drunks only" prom was shot down?

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by Tmy
How can a white only prom be ok, but my "drunks only" prom was shot down?

My "hookers only" prom was quite successful.

[Tony]

Ill say again, if black racism is acceptable, than this white only dance is acceptable.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Tony
Ill say again, if black racism is acceptable, than this white only dance is acceptable.

Why should either one be acceptable?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Diogenes


Why should either one be acceptable?

of course neither SHOULD be acceptable. But what should be and what is often differs.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony
Ill say again, if black racism is acceptable, than this white only dance is acceptable.

What black racism.?

Are you talking about BET again? Geeez, heres a little experiment. Watch an couple hours of NBC's programing tonight. Then watch a couple hours of BET's. You'll probably see more whites on BET than youll see blacks on NBC.

Do you find the Spanish channels to be racist also?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy


What black racism.?

Are you talking about BET again? Geeez, heres a little experiment. Watch an couple hours of NBC's programing tonight. Then watch a couple hours of BET's. You'll probably see more whites on BET than youll see blacks on NBC.

Do you find the Spanish channels to be racist also?

Why are you only using the BET as an example? I listed many other black only institutions.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Tony
Ill say again, if black racism is acceptable, than this white only dance is acceptable.

What is an example of a similar black situation that is acceptable?

(HINT: don't say a "black fraternity" or the "NAACP" because they aren't similar; although they have mostly black members, they do not prohibit white people from joining because they are white. I, as a white person, am allowed to join the NAACP The only example I can really come up with might be a "black panther" party, but I don't think anyone thinks that it is acceptable to throw out a white person there, just because he is white.)

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Tony


Why are you only using the BET as an example? I listed many other black only institutions.

You mean like the NAACP?

Can you show me where, in their by-laws, the NAACP says that you must be black to join? Same for the congressional black caucus.

[Tmy]

Lets not forgetthe big bad Black Congress. How many Congressmen are white? If tehre were only 6 white congressmen, Im sure nobody would care if they formed a caucus.

If a white congressmen did want to be in the Caucus Im sure they would be welcome.

[Tony]

Originally posted by pgwenthold


What is an example of a similar black situation that is acceptable?

(HINT: don't say a "black fraternity" or the "NAACP" because they aren't similar; although they have mostly black members, they do not prohibit white people from joining because they are white. I, as a white person, am allowed to join the NAACP The only example I can really come up with might be a "black panther" party, but I don't think anyone thinks that it is acceptable to throw out a white person there, just because he is white.)



When has the NAACP advanced the rights of white people? Where are the white only frats and dorms? Where is white history month?

It doesnt matter that black dorms and frats might accept white people (do you have evidence of that?), what matters is the fact that they are set up and advertised as a black only institution.

All of these are examples of acceptable black racism .

[Tmy]

Oh wait, forgot about White History month. Since there is not enough emphasis on white history in our schools.

Tell me how many European capital cities can you name vs how many South American capitals, African capitals, Asian capitals.

No white frats? Have you ever walked down a frat row at a major university.

AS for black colleges. They are "traditionally black" they do have white students. Ironically the "black colleges" and "black frats" came about because blacks were excluded from the white schools and frats. None of those places have rules against white members.

(Remeber the Lamda Lamda Lamda fraternity in Revenge of the Nerds.)

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Tmy
Lets not forgetthe big bad Black Congress. How many Congressmen are white? If tehre were only 6 white congressmen, Im sure nobody would care if they formed a caucus.

If a white congressmen did want to be in the Caucus Im sure they would be welcome.

Assuming, of course, that they stand for the ideals of the CBC. No, they probably won't accept Tony, if he were in congress, and he'd probably attribute it to racism.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
Lets not forgetthe big bad Black Congress. How many Congressmen are white? If tehre were only 6 white congressmen, Im sure nobody would care if they formed a caucus.



so because they are "minorities" they are entitled to be racists?

If a white congressmen did want to be in the Caucus Im sure they would be welcome.

Perhaps, but that has not yet happened.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
Oh wait, forgot about White History month. Since there is not enough emphasis on white history in our schools.



Only a racist person sees it as white history. I see it as american history.


Tell me how many European capital cities can you name vs how many South American capitals, African capitals, Asian capitals.

More than YOU would expect.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Tony




When has the NAACP advanced the rights of white people?

Whether they work to advance the rights of white people or not is irrelevent to whether they are a "blacks only" organization.

HINT: Can white people join? If so, then it is not "blacks only."

The same goes for your examples of dorms and fraternities.

Before you accuse a fraternity of being "blacks only," maybe you should check their policy on admitting non-black members. If you can show that they have a policy that does not allow white people to join because they are white, then I will concur that it is a racist organization.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy

AS for black colleges. They are "traditionally black" they do have white students. Ironically the "black colleges" and "black frats" came about because blacks were excluded from the white schools and frats. None of those places have rules against white members.



You're probobly right about that, im not gonna argue. But where's the outrage? How come people arent calling for "diversity" in these institutions? Because black-only institutions and racism are acceptable.

[Tony]

Originally posted by pgwenthold


Whether they work to advance the rights of white people or not is irrelevent to whether they are a "blacks only" organization.

HINT: Can white people join? If so, then it is not "blacks only."

The same goes for your examples of dorms and fraternities.

Before you accuse a fraternity of being "blacks only," maybe you should check their policy on admitting non-black members. If you can show that they have a policy that does not allow white people to join because they are white, then I will concur that it is a racist organization.

Ok, would you find any objection to the formation of an NAAWP? A group that exclusively advanced the interests of white people, just as long as they allow black people to join.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Tony
It doesnt matter that black dorms and frats might accept white people (do you have evidence of that?), what matters is the fact that they are set up and advertised as a black only institutionThey're set up as black only even if they allow whites? WTF?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Tony


of course neither SHOULD be acceptable. But what should be and what is often differs.

Have you ever heard " two wrongs don't make one right "?..

If someone finds any 'fill in skin color here' prom to be O.K.; why do they need to point to any other group and say " well, they're doing it. They are not doing it for that reason, they are just looking for some kind of justification for their bigotry, when none exists.

The idea of high school children having a 'white only' party, with the approval of their parents and community leaders, is disgusting and shameful. These kids didn't just wake up one morning and decide this is a great idea. They have been taught this by their parents and community and religious leaders.


And while another group might exhibit some of the same behaviour, there is an element of that behaviour, having been forced upon them, by the bigotry of others.

If the 'whites' wont let you come to their party, what do you do? Stay home?

[Tmy]

Cause the black only (which are not literally black only) groups are about similar group of people coming together to either celebrate or help out the same ethnic group. Just like Irish Clubs, German Clubs, whatever. But like I said before "white" is not an ethnic groupl. Its a term used to EXCLUDE minority groups.

Replace the term black wh Hawaiian or Irish, and are you still offended? The balcks dont have that old country tie because that was destroyed by slavery. So in effect the blacks had to come to gether top form there own ethnicity.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Diogenes


Have you ever heard " two wrongs don't make one right "?..



Yeah, but I find the only people that say that are people looking to excuse the first wrong and condemn the second. In this case, I condemn BOTH.

And while another group might exhibit some of the same behaviour, there is an element of that behaviour, having been forced upon them, by the bigotry of others.

If the 'whites' wont let you come to their party, what do you do? Stay home?


You're just trying to find justification for a black only institution.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by Tony
You're just trying to find justification for a black only institution.

I am against a black only institution. I'm just not aware of any.

I apologize if you have mentioned some already but I did scan the posts (didn't read them all) but I am honestly not aware of any.

The NAACP certainly doesn't bar white members and for that matter neither does the Black Panthers.

I am pretty sure there are some all black muslim sects but I'm not even sure if they actually ban white membership.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
But like I said before "white" is not an ethnic groupl. Its a term used to EXCLUDE minority groups.



In America it is. I don’t identify with Scotland or Scottish culture, and im sure many white Americans don’t identify with the culture of their ancestors. Using your logic, would it be ok if we started a white only group? (as long as its not literally a white only group)


Replace the term black wh Hawaiian or Irish, and are you still offended?

Im not offended by the fact they exist, im offended by the fact that they are accepted when a white only group isn’t.

[Tmy]

Ok Tony, you're from Texas. Lets see If I can toss out an analogy.

Say you you started a group like "The University of Texas Longhorns Booster Club" that would be akin to the "black groups" you speak off.

Now an analogus "white only" group would be like starting the "Every team in the Big 12, except Texas A+M, Booster Club"

See what I'm saying.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
Ok Tony, you're from Texas. Lets see If I can toss out an analogy.

Say you you started a group like "The University of Texas Longhorns Booster Club" that would be akin to the "black groups" you speak off.

Now an analogus "white only" group would be like starting the "Every team in the Big 12, except Texas A+M, Booster Club"

See what I'm saying.

OK, I see what you're saying. But we are talking about different things.

Would you find any objection to the formation of an NAAWP? A group that exclusively advanced the interests of white people, just as long as they allow black people to join.

[Tmy]

Why would there need to be a NAAWP? The idea seems rather silly. Whats happening to white people that they need advancement? Where are they being held back from or being underepresented. I mean if it were "The national organization to recruite white rappers" and that included black members I woulndnt see a problem.

Going back to my analogy. Its one thing to orgainze wh the purpose to help out the Longhorns, its another to organize wh the purpose of bringing down the A+M Aggies. Even if you "allowed" Aggie fans to join.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
Why would there need to be a NAAWP? The idea seems rather silly. Whats happening to white people that they need advancement?

Affirmative action.

[Tony]

Going back to my analogy. Its one thing to orgainze wh the purpose to help out the Longhorns, its another to organize wh the purpose of bringing down the A+M Aggies. Even if you "allowed" Aggie fans to join.

I know, thats why I said you are talking about something different. Im not talking about white groups in the context of bringing down blacks. Im talking about white groups in general.

[WMT1]

Originally posted by Tmy
There is White only channel. Its called NBC.

:rolleyes:


You see when someone talks about "white -only" its an exclusionary term.

And "black only" isn't? :confused:


Basically meaning no minorities because "whites" in general is this large group which really doesnt have much of a shared culture other than they are not minorities.

You're not suggesting this should have any weight in assessing the relative merits of "white only" and "black only", are you?


When you have "Black" channel. Its more of an ethnic focus. Just like having the Spanish channel or Portuguese channel.

Do they confine themselves to talking about things like black cuisine, history, dress, stuff like that? Or do they ever delve into things like black political interests? (Serious question, I don't know that I've ever watched it.)


Ever notice no one complains about St Patricks day. Cause its not a "white" holiday, its an Irish holiday. Same would apply if there was the Irish prom or Italian prom, no one would care cause they are celebrating there specific ethnicity.

Does this mean you think it's okay for everyone with a "specific ethnicity" to be exclusionary, just not white people?


In the above black examples of organizations, Im sure you would find that although they have a black focus they would also be accepting of whites who wanted to particpate. I dont beleive white-only organiztions are that accepting.

Since you basically identified NBC as a white-only organization, is it your assessment that the network isn't accepting of anyone who isn't white?

[WMT1]

Originally posted by shecky
Regarding White Entertainment Television or White History Month, I invite you to pursue these ideas and observe what kind of support you get. In this context, I suspect the word, "White" will largely be interpreted as a white supremacist key word by both proponents and opponents. I don't think there would be any problem with a Irish TV network, or a Italian TV network, as these are specific ethnic groups.

Thank you for essentially identifying the double standard present in much of the prevailing thinking about race. Bottom line seems to be that, in the minds of many, it's perfectly reasonable for just about anyone of a common ethnicity to gather together in settings that specifically exclude anyone else, but if white people want to do it, it's automatically viewed as a "supremacy" issue. Damn, no wonder this crap won't go away.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Tony

You're just trying to find justification for a black only institution.

Whatever makes you feel better..

[Tmy]

Originally posted by WMT1


:rolleyes:




And "black only" isn't? :confused:




You're not suggesting this should have any weight in assessing the relative merits of "white only" and "black only", are you?




Do they confine themselves to talking about things like black cuisine, history, dress, stuff like that? Or do they ever delve into things like black political interests? (Serious question, I don't know that I've ever watched it.)




Does this mean you think it's okay for everyone with a "specific ethnicity" to be exclusionary, just not white people?




Since you basically identified NBC as a white-only organization, is it your assessment that the network isn't accepting of anyone who isn't white?


Now now can we have an emoticon-free debate.

The NBC was a sarcastic crack since its a network known for not having many blacks. ("Friends" is often used as an example)

You've never watched BET? Well its not "oh those white fowlks are doing this n that". Acctually at this point the station is a carbon copy of Mtv. But in its hay day it showed back based TV shows (somthing like the Cosby Show, or Sanfred Sun). They had news segments that woudl focus on black issues when applicable. They would interview well known black celebs and politcal leaders.

I really couldnt imagine a White Televison equivelent that wouldnt mirror the current major networks. Its not like there were no whites. They didnt digitially remove the white people while showing re-runs of the Jeffersons.


OK so you start a White Entertainment Television. What would you have on?

[JAR]

Originally posted by Tmy
What black racism.?

Black racism does exist. I admit, it does have a very different feel than white racism. Have you ever heard of the Afro-Centrist movement. I read one guys message on skepdic.com where he said that blacks are actually smarter than whites. His evidence was that they're are American blacks who have invented things.

Jesse Jackson once referred to New York as "hiemee town"(I don't know how you spell the word. It's a derogatory word for Jews).

Recently there was an African-American poet who said the destruction of the World Trade Center was a plot by Jews. I can't remember the reason he gave for why they would do this.

According to Larry Elder's book, "The Ten Things You Can't Say in America", on page 4, the African-American director Spike Lee said in an interview in 1992, "I give interracial couples a look. Daggers. They get uncomfortable when they see me on the street."

I remember one time on the news, old footage was shown of African-Americans marching down a street toting signs that said, "White is devil." A young looking white man in their path was knocked over and kicked.

[Tmy]

Well yeah there are Black racists. But when I mean black racism Im talking about systematic racism.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy




OK so you start a White Entertainment Television. What would you have on?

Seeing as how the the first letters of white entertainment television spell "WET", I would feel obligated to have some porn featured. :D

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
Well yeah there are Black racists. But when I mean black racism Im talking about systematic racism.

affirmative action and the support it gets from black groups.

[Tmy]

OK so we need the NAAWP to advance white people who are being put down because of affirmative action which was put in place because for years Whites were putting down the blacks.

My heads about to explode in a million ironic pieces.


I'd love to debate AA wh ya Tony but I gotta cut out now. Talk to ya later. It probably belongs in a knew thread anyway. C-ya


ps: Your WET network can run Beverly Hills 90210 re runs over and over. Thats almost porn.

[WMT1]

Originally posted by Tmy
Now now can we have an emoticon-free debate.

I'd settle for one in which you didn't include all of my questions at the beginning of your post as if you were going to answer them, only to then ignore half of them.


But in its hay day it showed back based TV shows (somthing like the Cosby Show, or Sanfred Sun).

Both originally on NBC, by the way.


They had news segments that woudl focus on black issues when applicable. They would interview well known black celebs and politcal leaders.

Does this mean you would have no problem with a network that had news segments focusing specifically on "white" issues?


OK so you start a White Entertainment Television. What would you have on?

That question might be better directed to someone who has expressed an interest in starting one. Now, how about getting back to the rest of my questions, which were directly relevant to things you posted?

[WMT1]

Originally posted by Tmy
Well yeah there are Black racists. But when I mean black racism Im talking about systematic racism.

I thought this discussion was primarily about individuals privately getting together to do stuff while excluding those of a different ethnicity.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
OK so we need the NAAWP to advance white people who are being put down because of affirmative action which was put in place because for years Whites were putting down the blacks.

My heads about to explode in a million ironic pieces.


I'd love to debate AA wh ya Tony but I gotta cut out now. Talk to ya later. It probably belongs in a knew thread anyway. C-ya



http://www.forum.scullyspost.com/images/smilies/wavey.gif have a good weekend


ps: Your WET network can run Beverly Hills 90210 re runs over and over. Thats almost porn.

WHAT!?! There is an extreme lack of nudity in that show, IMO, that is a detriment . :D

[HarryKeogh]

so which prom...the white one or the black one gets to play the Eminem CDs? That's a gray area.

Im hispanic, guess im sitting home

[shecky]

Originally posted by WMT1


Thank you for essentially identifying the double standard present in much of the prevailing thinking about race. Bottom line seems to be that, in the minds of many, it's perfectly reasonable for just about anyone of a common ethnicity to gather together in settings that specifically exclude anyone else, but if white people want to do it, it's automatically viewed as a "supremacy" issue. Damn, no wonder this crap won't go away.

I'm not sure how well "white" would qualify as a specific ethnic group. "Irish", "German", "Italian", etc, all pretty much would clearly fall under ethnic groups (and would all be considered white). However it seems those typically using the descriptive "white" (as in "white pride" or "white history") are in fact in the white supremacist camp. "Irish/German/Italian/etc pride/history" doesn't carry the same connotations. If you have a problem with the "double standard", I'd suggest you take it up with your local white supremacist groups.

It IS perfectly reasonable for just about anyone of a common ethnicity to gather together in settings that specifically exclude anyone else. Thus there are Irish/German/Italian/etc fraternal organizations.

White-only fraternal organizations do exist. They just tend to do things like burn crosses, or wear hoods, or see huge government conspiracies under every stone. I invite you to start your own "whites only" organization (presuming you're white, of course), and see what kinds of members you attract.

[JAR]

Originally posted by shecky


I'm not sure how well "white" would qualify as a specific ethnic group. "Irish", "German", "Italian", etc, all pretty much would clearly fall under ethnic groups (and would all be considered white).

Referring to people in the U.S. as Italians, Irish or German runs into problems. It's very common for ethnic groups in the U.S. to lose their ethnic identity over a period of time. Once this happens, it becomes difficult or even impossible to tell them apart from people of English descent

What amazes me is that "Ebonics" has stuck around in the USA for so long while languages such as German, and French have pretty much disappeared. It's rare to meet a person of German descent who speaks German or a person of Irish descent who speaks an Irish dialect of English. But if you meet an African-American, chances are they speak Ebonics.

[WMT1]

Originally posted by WMT1
Thank you for essentially identifying the double standard present in much of the prevailing thinking about race. Bottom line seems to be that, in the minds of many, it's perfectly reasonable for just about anyone of a common ethnicity to gather together in settings that specifically exclude anyone else, but if white people want to do it, it's automatically viewed as a "supremacy" issue. Damn, no wonder this crap won't go away.

Originally posted by shecky
I'm not sure how well "white" would qualify as a specific ethnic group. "Irish", "German", "Italian", etc, all pretty much would clearly fall under ethnic groups (and would all be considered white).

:confused:

Would it also mean including Asians and Hispanics? And why would it matter anyway? Either you object to discrimination based on race, or you don't. What difference does it make how many groups are included by whatever standard is being used? This "specific ethnic group" thing just seems to be a way to rationalize your own inconsistency.


However it seems those typically using the descriptive "white" (as in "white pride" or "white history") are in fact in the white supremacist camp.

So, when you said "I suspect the word, 'White' will largely be interpreted as a white supremacist key word by both proponents and opponents", it was your own interpretation you were talking about after all? Why the hell didn't you just say so in the first place? We could have saved some time.


"Irish/German/Italian/etc pride/history" doesn't carry the same connotations.

So, which "connotations" are acceptable to you, and which are not?


If you have a problem with the "double standard", I'd suggest you take it up with your local white supremacist groups.

First, no need to do so. They're already marginalized, and almost universally recognized for the kooks they are.

Second, they're not the ones guilty of the particular double standard I'm referring to anyway. As nearly as I can tell, you are. So how about answering for your own inconsistency, rather than trying to shift the attention elsewhere?


It IS perfectly reasonable for just about anyone of a common ethnicity to gather together in settings that specifically exclude anyone else.

Then why not just say "It is perfectly reasonable for just about anyone to gather together in settings that specifically exclude anyone else"? Why is the common ethnicity necessary?


White-only fraternal organizations do exist. They just tend to do things like burn crosses, or wear hoods, or see huge government conspiracies under every stone.

Can I take it you would have no problem with a "white only" group that did not - at least, no more of a problem than with (for instance) a "black only" organization?


I invite you to start your own "whites only" organization (presuming you're white, of course), and see what kinds of members you attract.

Yeah, you said something like this before, in the very post I was responding to. So unless you're just trying to create the impression of some association between such groups and the person you're arguing with, why are you repeating yourself? :confused:

You seem to be trying to make some kind of point, but for some reason you lack the confidence in it to just come right out and say it. So, just to try to pin you down a bit, wouldn't you think that the "kind of members" such a group would attract would be white, just as the kind of members a "black only" organization would attract would be black? I suppose you could also call them racists, but then that would apply to both cases too, wouldn't it?

[Tmy]

Originally posted by JAR


Referring to people in the U.S. as Italians, Irish or German runs into problems. It's very common for ethnic groups in the U.S. to lose their ethnic identity over a period of time. Once this happens, it becomes difficult or even impossible to tell them apart from people of English descent

What amazes me is that "Ebonics" has stuck around in the USA for so long while languages such as German, and French have pretty much disappeared. It's rare to meet a person of German descent who speaks German or a person of Irish descent who speaks an Irish dialect of English. But if you meet an African-American, chances are they speak Ebonics.

I wouldnt consider eboinics to be a different language but rather an english dialect. Just as people in the south talk different than those in New England and New York and Chicago etc. If someone is speaking ebonics chances are that they picked it up from living in the inner city.

[DialecticMaterialist]

This is some pretty ignorant primitive behavior right here that I'm sad ANYONE in their right mind would be defending. Period.

Why have a "white only" party? Saying your upset about the "black only" party is not an excuse.

Two wrongs do not make a right. There is retaliation of course but how exactly are they retaliating? Are they part of a problem or solution?

Skeptic, you and me seem to piss down the same creek a lot, but these latest statements you are making sound very racist.



There isn't a law--and there shouldn't be one--that FORCES people to associate with others of different races and creeds on all occasions. Freedom of association is a right; you have a right to not associate with black people (or with white ones) if you don't want to.

And who said there shouldn't be it? Well gee, NOBODY. Unless the event used public facilities, which I can then understand(your freedom of association does not let you use MY tax dollars for "white only" parties).

In any event, lets imagine the event was completely public. Can it be legal? Sure. Does that make it RIGHT though? Nope.

And does it probably deserve criticism? Yes, otherwise a society does not evolve. You don't limit your criticism to what is merely illegal.(Astrology, scientology, pseudoscience are not illegal, that mean we should take the JREF board down?)



It doesn't seem to me, actually, to be much of a "racist" statement by the students, either. Many of the students, according to the article, DID go to the "mixed" prom; a blatant racist would not participate in such "evil race-mixing".

Give me a break. Ok, some neo-nazis go to parties with blacks too, some go to proms with blacks, hell some even go to events with JEWS.

Does that mean the neo-nazis aren't racist? Is this the reverse fallacy of "innocence by association" now?

The fact is why the hell would you want a "white only" party? Does being "white" automatically mean you have something in common? Are colored people really THAT different?

Yes there could be reasons why they are having the "white only" prom besides racism, but are those "possible reasons" really probable? Or is it not more parsimonious to assume the teens are just racist whites?

(I mean who would have thought some whites were racist...not just the blacks).

So yes there is freedom of association, yes I can sit down in my house and say "I don't want to any stupid ******* coming through my door" and that isn't illegal.

But IF it's well known that I don't let blacks into my house, people are allowed to disprove of it and criticize me for it. And they should criticize me for it.

Yes your freedom allows you to be an idiot, but if you are going to act like one you shall be labled one and treated accordingly.

[DialecticMaterialist]

of course neither SHOULD be acceptable. But what should be and what is often differs.

So you admit it's wrong and bigoted but that's ok...why? Because it happened.

I miss something or was that a serious non sequitur? So you are defending the "white only" party under the argument that "it happened" or "racism exists."

Well lets see, what other acts could I defende using that sort off reasoning....well gee: ANYTHING. Even child molestation "hey it shouldn't happen...but it does."



The fact is it shouldn't happen. Period.

And I'm going to admit, there is black racism, there is mexican racism, french "racism", asian racism. Every group of people has racists and a tradition of racism(evolving from tribal xenophobia) in it.

I know some people are under the delusion that blacks and mexicans, for some magical reason, can't be racist. I'm not denying that such people exist, but I very much think they are wrong. And I'm actually disgusted by all the unchecked black/mexican/asian/whatever racism that goes on in this country. Especially when how its often directed against whites(many minorities are under the impression that it's somehow justified as "payback".)

In fact I've personally experienced it. When I was younger I was actually insulted by Phillipenos in my neighborhood who screamed "white boy!", threw things at me and made cheap jokes.

Nevermind that I'm not even white.(I'm partly white,asian and mexican). I guess we can't let "technicalities" like the fact that a person isn't even white get in the way of racist ceremony.

My friend experiences discrimination by mexicans where he used to work(a place where the majority were mexican.) He got the interesting nickname of "white chocolate." Another white friend of mine was told by a mexican that she's "too white to be speaking spainish".

So yeah I know about racism directed against whites.

But now is it ok for me to go out and start a "mixed race only" prom or party?

Should we bring back segregation, this time de facto instead of de jure now because some minorities are bigots?

No, because it is still wrong. Racism is disgusting no matter who commits it for whatever reason because there is NO link between skin color and personality. So even if some blacks are racist, making a "white only" party still makes no sense, because being black has nothing to do with being racist or anti-white. You are basically then kicking out people for no real reason other then what amount of pigmentation they got when they were born.

And that to me is about as wrong as you can get. Legal true, happens true, but still very, very wrong.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by JAR


Referring to people in the U.S. as Italians, Irish or German runs into problems. It's very common for ethnic groups in the U.S. to lose their ethnic identity over a period of time. Once this happens, it becomes difficult or even impossible to tell them apart from people of English descent
.

So then your "whites only" group would only be made up of whites who have lost there ethinic identity. Cause if there was some white guy who still had his German ties he obviously would not fit into your group white skinned ethinic orphans? Since that is the connection you have to each other.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Tmy


So then your "whites only" group would only be made up of whites who have lost there ethinic identity. Cause if there was some white guy who still had his German ties he obviously would not fit into your group white skinned ethinic orphans? Since that is the connection you have to each other.

What I'm trying to get at Tmy is that there is no name for the type of person who speaks dialects of northern English.

If you say you are an American, all that means is that you live in the USA. If you say that you are a southerner, people know what you're talking about. If you say that you are a northerner, no-one knows what you're talking about. They'll probably think you come from Canada or something. I should know, I tried it.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Tmy
I wouldnt consider eboinics to be a different language but rather an english dialect. Just as people in the south talk different than those in New England and New York and Chicago etc. If someone is speaking ebonics chances are that they picked it up from living in the inner city.

I'm aware of the fact that Ebonics is a dialect of English. When I said "languages", I meant "characteristic styles of speech."

[Tmy]

JAR,

You caould say that your a Californian. That brings up specfic images.

So are you a pot smoking, self centered, hippe, Hollywood snob? :D

[JAR]

Originally posted by Tmy
So are you a pot smoking, self centered, hippe, Hollywood snob? :D
I don't smoke marijuana, although I do know many people who do. The designation of self-centered is not entirely true. The last time a person asked me if I had 25 cents to spare, I gave him a quarter. I'm definitely not hippe considering that I listen mostly to music which has an orchestra playing. I don't live in Hollywood and I'm probably not a snob considering that I like movies like "The Mummy", "The Mummy Returns", and "The Scorpion King."

[dmarker]

Originally posted by Tony


OK, I see what you're saying. But we are talking about different things.

Would you find any objection to the formation of an NAAWP? A group that exclusively advanced the interests of white people, just as long as they allow black people to join.


You're a bit late, Tony.

http://www.naawp.org/