Race - Part Two, [i]They[/i] are moving into your area

[a_unique_person]

This is another part of the race issue.

For example, you live in a white area, (and you are white), and then blacks/asians/hispanics start moving in in force. How do you feel?

I was in a similar situation. Many asians started moving into what had been a predominantly white, 'middle class' area. It was aging, so there was a regular supply of homes up for sale. Many of these homes were being bought by asians.

Asian shops were opening up, etc.

Now, at first I was a little fearful of this. We all have a tribal instinct, and I identified with the white, middle-class tribe.

We moved eventually, not because of the asian hordes, but because we needed a bigger home, and wanted to live near the beach. Now we were back in a white area, except it was white, working/unemployed class.

The sense of the asian hordes taking over, however, was gone. There were a few asians, but roughly in proportion to their total representation in the total population. I then realised that what had been happening was that they were not taking over the country, which was the fear many people liked to play on, but congregating. If I was to move overseas to work, in a country with a different racial mix and language, the first thing I would do would be to seek a similar group of people, so I could talk my own language, and talk about my own cultural interests.

I also noticed that the children were not talking with their parents asian accents, but talking genuine Australian 'strine', that they had learned at school.

My interest in all this is because the US, if I understand correctly, is undergoing a much larger version of this change. I was interested to read that many areas of the US now have whole Spanish speaking areas. That is, the children are not learning English as their first language, but spending their whole lives speaking Spanish. This is happening in the Southern areas, which were originally Spanish anyway.

So how do people feel about all this? In Ausralia, we are going multicultural, but in a different way to the US. I can see plenty of shops in different towns with Chinese writing, and hear plenty of different accents. But the ethnic mix is only congregating in areas at the town level, and their children are all learning English as their first language, most with a local accent.

We are adapting many of the influences from the immigrants, you can now go to decent, cheap restaurants and cafes in Australia, when 40 years ago there was nothing. We are much more outward looking towards the rest of the world. We are, however, still very much 'Australian'.

The US, however, appears to be undergoing a fundamental change, as, due to it's much larger population and the fact that the Mexicans were there to start with in many areas, with a large Mexican country next door so that illegal immigration is much easier.

What will the US be like in 20 years, 50 years?

[Tony]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

My interest in all this is because the US, if I understand correctly, is undergoing a much larger version of this change. I was interested to read that many areas of the US now have whole Spanish speaking areas. That is, the children are not learning English as their first language, but spending their whole lives speaking Spanish. This is happening in the Southern areas, which were originally Spanish anyway.




Where did you read this? It is somewhat inaccurate.

There are many Hispanics that speak only Spanish, but contrary to what you read, their children speak English. Often the children of their Spanish-speaking parents have to translate for their parent when dealing with certain affairs. I know this from experience, when I delivered pizza, I had to rely on children or teenagers to translate when I talked to parents about price, toppings ect..

The only kids that dont learn english are the ones that dont go to school.

edit to add: And the kids that don’t learn English are severely handicapped in the job market.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Tony



Where did you read this? It is somewhat inaccurate.


That's why I am asking.

[shemp]

The only thing this thread proves is that style tags in the subject line don't work.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by shemp
The only thing this thread proves is that style tags in the subject line don't work.

And you can't get them out once they are in there.

[shecky]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


That's why I am asking.

Your notion about spanish-only speaking population does seem to be a somewhat popular sentiment, though I agree with Tony, I think it's not quite the truth. The older population has a much more difficult time being conversational in english. The kids, like any kids I suppose, pick it up quick. It does seem that being english OR spanish speaking only can be a handicap in th job market.

[schplurg]

As a Californian, I would agree with what Tony said. I'm not close to the border so it may be different there, but it has been my experience that most kids learn English, while many of the parents, or "original immigrants" maybe, do not. Then again, many of the adults speak good English too.

I'm not familiar with any "Spanish speaking areas" as described. There are large Hispanic populations and areas that are probably 95% Mexican, but it still feels like good ol' US of A to me. There are a few streets and neighborhoods here and there that have mostly Vietnamese writing on all of the storefronts. In fact, I never see similar areas with signs in Spanish. Kinda strange now that I think about it. Maybe because the English and Spanish languages are more closely related to each other. In other words, I know what "Taqueria Restorante(sp)" means, but I'm clueless as to the meaning of "Huang Fuc Nyang" (made it up, no offense meant, but it looks like something I've seen).

I don't mind this mix of cultures for the most part. Sometimes it's cool standing in line at the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) and seeing a white dude (me), a black dude, a Mexican, a guy in a turban, and someone who resembles a Tibetan Monk, all in the same line with me. Then there's always one person with gawd-awful body odor...never fails. BTW, I question whether it is wise to hand out CA drivers licenses to someone who needs to take the test in Vietnamese, or some other language, when all the road signs etc are in English.

Sometimes the diversity is a pain in the butt too. Cultures clash, some cultures seem to have a propensity for bad driving. In fact I have several friends who agree that they are indeed these types of drivers (and so do I after riding with them). Sometimes you get turned down for a job because you don't speak Spanish, but not very often.

AUP...You mentioned the restaurants and that is definitely a BIG bonus! I can eat any type of authentic food I want, there is a restaurant for everything. In fact I just gorged on some Mexican food...little hole-in-the-wall place in my town...LOVE it man!!!

The diversity in women is cool too heh! But I think it's totally understandable and natural to be somewhat fearful or apprehensive about such a mix of cultures. As you said, the tribal instincts are there, and sometimes you can find more valid or tangible(?) reasons for fearing an influx of a certain group of people (I suppose anyways). Diversity is what makes America a great place, and at the same time, this same diversity is creating a whole lot of problems. This "America thang" has been one interesting and crazy experiment.

[Tony]

Multiculturalism might be a good thing, I haven’t decided yet. But I think the plethora of cultures we have represented will eventually evolve into a new, singular culture in a few generations.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The US...<snip>with a large Mexican country next door
We call that country "Mexico". :D
As others have posted, even when the parents don't speak a word of English the children always do, by the 3rd generation or so they probably won't even be able to speak Spanish. My girlfriend is Mexican, 3rd gen. and doesn't speak any Spanish.

Here in Chiocago we have all kinds of different ethnic enclaves - Mexican, Puerto Rican, Vietnamese, Thai, Polish, Lithuanian, Irish, it goes on and on. There are more great little authentic restaurants than you could visit in a lifetime, quite a bonus.

[Frank Newgent]

I co-own a house in a small city in the state of Guanajuato, Mexico. Unlike the homes what most other foreigners that live there have, it is in a very typical neighborhood. Its distinguishing feature is the extra story we had put on the structure, giving us one hell of a view of very picturesque surroundings.

This sort of plus is what normally adds value to a place. In our case, the local real estate market has not yet agreed.

Where we live is considered, somehow, unsafe.

The irony is visible from the third floor deck. Way across the historic center of town you can see big windows on all the houses perched on the mountain. This adds to the spectacle. What they see is a brown hillside covered by ghetto.

And I have a telescope.

[Michael Redman]

There have always been large pockets of non-english speaking immigrants in the US, although probably not as large as current hispanic populations in many southwestern states. Here in Minnesota, there are large numbers of recently arrived Hmong and Somalis. 100 years ago it was Germans and Norwegians. The older immigrants sometimes have trouble picking up English, but the kids adapt fast. It's always been this way in the US, although the numbers of Spanish speakers are growing so fast that it is becomming a national second language.

And it's mostly legal, not illegal, immigration, that accounts for the new Spanish speakers.

[corplinx]

I grew up in an all black neighborhood. I didnt really realize this as a younger boy. It was a nice middle class neighborhood, everyone mowed their lawns. Most neighbors trusted each other.

After college, I moved into an apartment in what was still the "white" part of town. There I discovered the nastiness of a little something called "section 8". In just a year, my peaceful tranquil WaterGrove became the "Watery Grave" as my neighbor called it. Robbings and home invasions became common. Of course, the people living in the government subsidized apartments were black. My neighbor saw that these people flashing gang signs and causing trouble were black. I saw that they were from the bad of town to begin with. We both moved. Call me chicken for not standing up to them. But I dont want to die because I drew my gun slower than some punk.

I moved to an apartment building more hidden and off the beaten path to get away from "those people". However, all of a sudden my vision had become skewed. When I saw a black person move in to my new apartments, instead of not caring like me as a younger man I thought "there goes the neighborhood". It makes me sad to realize that.

Currently, I live in a nice suburb a few miles east of the most violent city in america. I have quite a few black neighbors but I don't have any section 8 thugs and I'm happy. I'm back to my earlier days of chatting on the street corner, talking about the proper way to grill ribs, or the best out of the way southern food with my neighbors.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by corplinx
I grew up in an all black neighborhood. I didnt really realize this as a younger boy. It was a nice middle class neighborhood, everyone mowed their lawns. Most neighbors trusted each other.

After college, I moved into an apartment in what was still the "white" part of town. There I discovered the nastiness of a little something called "section 8". In just a year, my peaceful tranquil WaterGrove became the "Watery Grave" as my neighbor called it.

Section 8?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Section 8?

I may have the terminology wrong but its a program to help low income people get apartments.

[Fade]

Section 8 can either partially or completely fund housing for people in the US. It is, in my opinion, one of the only things we "need" as far as welfare goes. A house is a platform for a job, a job is a platform for everything else.

But I digress!

Where I live is, by percentages, mostly white. However, we have substantial Asian and Pacific Islander populations. That being said, I can't think of any neighbourhoods within 50 miles (not including Seattle) that are all one thing or the other. No matter where you go, up and down the income scale, the saturation seems about the same to me.

I very quickly found that having a phillipino house-wife as a close neighbour was very much to my advantage. I give her desserts, which she isn't very good at making, and she gives me a variety of foods which I would have never experienced.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by corplinx


I may have the terminology wrong but its a program to help low income people get apartments.

So the problem wasn't that blacks moved in, but poor people with no idea of how to get a job?

[JAR]

Here's my feelings on various peoples moving into the area I live in:

African-Americans: I would prefer to not have them moving into my neighborhood. Many of them are nice(such as the family who lives next door and the family that lives across the street), but enough of them aren't that being around them can be scary.

Muslims: Nice people. Only problem I have with them is that they're so darn possessive with their women. For a non-Muslim to marry one of their women is sacrilege. I do find Middle Eastern women more attractive than white women.

Asian-Americans: I have no problem with them. They can immigrate as much as they want. They are nice people that are easy to get along with.

European-Americans: Nice people. I have no problem with them immigrating to the area I live in. There not as nice though as Asian-Americans.

Mexican-Americans: I have mixed feelings about them. A portion of them are very tribalistic. The worst part about it is that these ones are unaware of the fact that boasting that they have "brown pride" makes them rascists. To them, rascism is only something white people are capable of. On the other hand, in general, Mexican women are more attractive than white women, and I would even go so far to say that many of the most attractive women you will find are among the Mexican population. The majority of the women I had crushes back when I was in the public school were at least partly of Mexican ancestry.

[Cleopatra]

I liked your original post Unique.

Listen to something funnier. Greece is a tiny country, smaller than the State of New York... so everything is magnified! Add the mediterranean temper and there you go! You have an interesting , passionate but dangerous explosive material!

10 years ago, with the fall of Communism, people from the Balkans, especially Albania who was a country of proverbial poverty, started migrating to the country of the people who thought that they were the direct ancestors of Socrates and Plato... ( as you see stupidity is an international epidemic...)

What I consider most ridiculous, is that Greeks were immigrants themselves from the day 1 -2200 BC- that they stepped their foot on this tiny corner of earth. So, one should expect that they would be tolerant or at least they'd try...

To be fair, Albanians didn't come from a similar society... They are still organized in tribes( !!! ) and old and violent traditions, like vendetta, survive still...

But Albanians were like the Greeks of the 50ies who went in USA and became rich... they worked hard and they started becoming owners and invading the areas where only natives used to live.

At the beginning this was a great shock. I mean great shock, we had to face many reactions, the fact that they were Muslims made things much worse... but thanks to the immediate reaction of some organizations and with the help of the EU we managed to prevent the things we were afraid of ( gun ownership, racial hatred, violence etc etc).

We started advertizing the fact that thanks to Albanians and their hard work, we managed to join the EURO zone, something that it's true of course!

This academic year, I was happy to discover that one student in the Law school of Athens is an Albanian. You know, it's very tough to enroll the Law School of Athens and I am sure that many Greeks who have failed, are envy of him :)

Yes, it was difficult,when this started,I admit that it's difficult to see your area changing, to hear to different languages, to see a mosque next to your church...but now things seem much better.

[JAR]

I found your post interesting, Cleopatra.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I liked your original post Unique.

....

We started advertizing the fact that thanks to Albanians and their hard work, we managed to join the EURO zone, something that it's true of course!

This academic year, I was happy to discover that one student in the Law school of Athens is an Albanian. You know, it's very tough to enroll the Law School of Athens and I am sure that many Greeks who have failed, are envy of him :)

Yes, it was difficult,when this started,I admit that it's difficult to see your area changing, to hear to different languages, to see a mosque next to your church...but now things seem much better.

We have a lot of greeks in Australia, so there are plenty of Greek jokes. One I liked was about the the coming 2004 Olympic games in Greece, they will be ready for them in 2006. Maybe with the Albanians to help out they will be on time.

The non Mediteranean migrants do seem to be more outgoing than the English base we started on, so that a friendly Greek is much more friendly, a bad Greek is much badder, a sad Greek is much sadder. I think Dashiel Hammet said the same for the Mexicans.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


So the problem wasn't that blacks moved in, but poor people with no idea of how to get a job?

No, the problem was thugs and their thug friends.

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
So the problem wasn't that blacks moved in, but poor people with no idea of how to get a job? I have a friend who is a landlord, and rents to section 8 tenants. For his renters, section 8 pays a portion of the rent (around half?). He says that a lot of landlord don't like section 8 tenants because they don't respect the property or their neighbors. I suppose irresponsible people, and their children, are more likely to need public assistance. My friend has never had trouble with tenants, because he pays attention to who he rents to, rather than simply trying to get a fresh body into the place as soon as possible.

To me, it seems like subsidizing tenant's rent payments to private landlords is a vastly better solution than building government owned low income housing. Still, not everyone is raised with the proper understanding of their responsibilities, and those folks who are selfish irresponsible thugs probably tend to congregate on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum, which also has the unfortunate side effect of giving a bad reputation by association to good people who happen to be poor.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by corplinx


No, the problem was thugs and their thug friends.

OK, so why are some blacks middle class neighbours, and some thugs and their friends?

[Tmy]

Section 8 is a program that helps poor people pay the rent. Basically you have to pay 30% of your income to rent and the gov will kick in the rest. If you make a good living than you are paying less than 30% to rent and wouldnt want a Section 8. It funnels lots of money to rich landlords as it creates higher market rates. I must admit that our goveremnt housing programs have been very good at almost eliminatating homelessness.





Back to the minorities moving in thing.

In the US, especially in the Nth East, you have this long history of immigration. When people come over on the boat they of cousre moved to the part of town where they have relatives and other old country support. So when you say there are parts of the city where Spanish is predominant, that is true. BUT there are also spots where Chineses, Polish, Brazillians, Irish, Itiaian, you name it is predominate.

You should see it as an advantage that there are these palces called Little (Insert old country name here). They are gret places to go to get whatever ethnic foods you want. And the festiveles are great and varied.


I have a question about Austrialia. Ive always heard that its a very racist and xenophobic country. Is that accurate.

[max]

The UK has a population of 56million of which 4million are ethnic.
Unique says he feared the asians were taking over but that after a while he realised they weren't doing that.....oh yes they are! It will just take a few more generations yet. The afore mentioned 4million will be ..what in twenty years?......5/6 million?
after they've reproduced themselves.
The Islam intention is to take over the world and indeed they are doing just that. Eventually in a couple or so centuries the planet will see a minority of other races. Fanatical Muslims here are proud to announce publicly that their intention is for the UK to be an Islam state and they can't wait for the black flag to fly over the houses of parliament and over Buckingham Palace.
I was never a racist until these fanatics started to torment and taunt and teach and train young muslims to kill all those who do not follow their religion. One such fanatic has just been jailed for nine years for saying everyone else other than muslims are cockroaches. He should have been hung. Many live off the fat of this land, never work and do not wish to fit in but only to stir up trouble. Yes Unique, they will indeed take over, just give them time. Here they are in a majority in Leeds, Bradford, Birmingham Those are cities, they are a majority in many of the towns too, whereby they have created no go areas for whites. As I keep saying....lovely people

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Tmy

I have a question about Austrialia. Ive always heard that its a very racist and xenophobic country. Is that accurate.

Where did you hear that?

There was a 'white australia' policy for many years. This was discarded when it was realised that,

a) We needed immigrants, and we weren't going to get them all from white places
b) We would be viewed as being something only slightly less worse than South Africa.

Australia now appears to be a succesfully multicultural society, although the native aboriginals still do it hard, and people such as our esteemed Prime Minister don't mind playing the race card whenever they feel it will get them elected.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by max
The UK has a population of 56million of which 4million are ethnic.
Unique says he feared the asians were taking over but that after a while he realised they weren't doing that.....oh yes they are! It will just take a few more generations yet. The afore mentioned 4million will be ..what in twenty years?......5/6 million?
after they've reproduced themselves.
The Islam intention is to take over the world and indeed they are doing just that. Eventually in a couple or so centuries the planet will see a minority of other races. Fanatical Muslims here are proud to announce publicly that their intention is for the UK to be an Islam state and they can't wait for the black flag to fly over the houses of parliament and over Buckingham Palace.
I was never a racist until these fanatics started to torment and taunt and teach and train young muslims to kill all those who do not follow their religion. One such fanatic has just been jailed for nine years for saying everyone else other than muslims are cockroaches. He should have been hung. Many live off the fat of this land, never work and do not wish to fit in but only to stir up trouble. Yes Unique, they will indeed take over, just give them time. Here they are in a majority in Leeds, Bradford, Birmingham Those are cities, they are a majority in many of the towns too, whereby they have created no go areas for whites. As I keep saying....lovely people

Hang on, not all Asians are Muslim, and not all Muslims are Asian.

[aerocontrols]

Sorry, can't speak to when they move into my area.

I moved into theirs, though. I find them to be quite friendly people. I hope they don't mind my presence. I try not to play my Johnny Cash too loud.

MattJ

[max]

if you can find todays Daily Mail front page on the internet you will see what I am saying .....muslim, schmuslim who cares? They should all go home

[Tmy]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Where did you hear that?

.

To be honest, your original post sort of backed up that theory about Aussies being racist. Not that I think you're this bad old bigot but maybe its ingranied in the culture over there.

[BillyTK]

Strangely enough, my grandparents were the them moving into your area....

Edited to fix tags

[Supercharts]

I grew up in an Italian-American neighborhood. [I am not Italian-American]. This neighborhood was wonderful. All the IA families had a vegetable garden out back.
Wednesday evenings were exciting. Everyone cooked. Walking through the neighborhood was a wonderful sensation of delicious smells. The disappointment was arriving home and finding my mother had prepared a New England Boiled dinner in the pressure cooker. :( I would love to live in the North End of Boston but I can't afford it.
Asian-Americans [ABCs especially] are the 'model' minority. Clean, well-spoken, the children are super smart, the houses are very neat and tidy.
The Irish-Americans run this State. No one can beat an Irish-American in a 'political' game.
Polish-Americans are also very neat and tidy.
So back to the original thread 'they' are everywhere. If 'they' can afford it then 'they' move where they want.
In Lowell, MA we have the largest Cambodian population in North America. Many Lao and Vietnamese. They are refugees from Communism and dictators. Lot's of Indians too.
I think it's great. :) [As long as 'they' vote Republican. ;) ]

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by max
Here they are in a majority in Leeds, Bradford, Birmingham Those are cities, they are a majority in many of the towns too, whereby they have created no go areas for whites. As I keep saying....lovely people

Leeds 91.8% white
Bradford 78.3% white
Birmingham 70.4% white

Source: 2001 Census (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/profiles/rank/rank_ethnic.asp)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


We have a lot of greeks in Australia, so there are plenty of Greek jokes. One I liked was about the the coming 2004 Olympic games in Greece, they will be ready for them in 2006. Maybe with the Albanians to help out they will be on time.

Melbourne has the largest Greek population out of the Greek borders :)
As for the Olympics, is this all you say? You are polite...

The non Mediteranean migrants do seem to be more outgoing than the English base we started on, so that a friendly Greek is much more friendly, a bad Greek is much badder, a sad Greek is much sadder. I think Dashiel Hammet said the same for the Mexicans.

Generalizations...some of them, pleasant indeed!

I have two observations:

I find it funny when Australians and Americans complain about immigrants.

Also Max, allow me please to remind you, that UK had collonies... those people came from the colonies to mama England... Now that you lost your colonies, you want the "barbarians" to go home?

[Cleopatra]

And since we are talking about migration there are some articles from Open Democracy on the subject.( I hope we are allowed to do this, otherwise a moderator will edit the post, I assume)

I post them especially for our Syrian friends who complain about the biased Media in USA :)

FROM CRISIS MANAGEMENT TO HOPE - A NEW PROPOSAL
THEO VEENKAMP, former head of the Netherlands Agency for the Reception of Asylum Seekers, with TOM BENTLEY and ALESSANDRA BUONFINO present the key ideas from the People Flow pamphlet.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-10-96-1194.jsp

THE FOLLY OF MASS IMMIGRATION
Mass immigration is neither inevitable nor desirable; it threatens national and cultural diversity; it can be stopped. ANTHONY BROWNE, the environment editor of the Times responds to People Flow.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-10-96-1193.jsp

PEOPLE MOVE
The humane and effective treatment of people movement requires a World Migration Organisation, argues ARTHUR HELTON of the Council on Foreign Relations.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-10-96-1192.jsp

WHY DEBATE MIGRATION?
TOM BENTLEY explains the partnership of ideas that gave birth to the debate.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-10-96-927.jsp

EDITORS NOTE - A WORLD ON THE MOVE
ANTHONY BARNETT registers a Copernican shift.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/themes/article-3-1198.jsp