Do you want immortality?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

So I just got myself a good reaming on Skepticsrock for suggesting, nay, insisting that immortality would soon become horrifically boring and people would opt out of it. Some folks were claiming that they would like to live forever. I was insistent that it would become unbearable.

People got angry with me for claiming to know their feelings on the matter better than they did. Fair enough. But we also touched on the idea that the thought of immortality is somehow comforting. I don't understand this. I asked why, but I don't think I got an answer.

I brought up god and "ultimate purpose," too, but people claimed that had nothing to do with the matter. However, I noticed that peoples' picture of this immortality seemed all nice and happy and limitless (they mentioned exploring new worlds and such). This sounds like some sort of heaven to me, not mundane immortality. It was as if immortality would be cool as long as it was also perfect.

I apologize if I have misinterpreted anyone's statements here. You can certainly correct my misapprehensions.

So, what do you think? Immortality? Or death?

~~ Paul

[Tricky]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000AG7T.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

When I am dead, I hope it is said, 'His sins were scarlet, but his books were read'.
Hilaire Belloc (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/hilairebel100773.html)

[Vagabond]

I think the question isn't whether you would prefer life or death. It's the nature of that life or death that is the real question.

If that life was being able to explore the entire universe. Being able to form reality in any manner I might choose. It would be great. Never ending life in the state it exists on this planet would become unbearable before long. Primarily, because just the nature of your immortality wouldn't allow you to live properly. If everybody else was also immortal and thus you being only one was no longer a factor that would make a huge difference.

[ThisIsMe]

I would definately opt for immortality. I love life. Even if I were incapacitated to the point being just a thinking brain, at least I exist. If I don't exist then what do I got then? Nothing, no chances to go back.

And if there is a heaven, heaven is immortality so live/die/whatever it doesn't make any difference - the conscious lives on. Then again, if heaven's a better place then why am I bothering to be alive in the first place? It kind of makes life a little pointless. A place to wait until we find a way to die that still gets us into heaven... So if there's a heaven then I guess I'd opt for immediate death. Otherwise, immortality.

And I wouldn't call life mundane. In fact, anything but. There's so much to learn.

-Me

[El Greco]

Immortality. With a functioning brain. And a functioning penis. How can you possibly get bored ? If it was possible, I would already have.

[H3LL]

I'm with Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.

Can I start now?

"Paul C. Anagnostopoulos? You're an idiot!"



:D

[Iacchus]

Why not heaven? Isn't it impossible enough that the world exists in its current state of affairs? How much more impossible would it be for God to exist in such a context? And if you think about it, didn't the Universe pretty much usher itself in on a whim?

[Kiless]

Nup.

My partner thinks the eventual goal is to live forever and certainly thinks we're all heading that way via the progress of science.

Personally? I just think of the film Highlander. I want to die. I don't mind. Maybe I'll finally get some sleep as my body shuts down.

And as you said - how certain that we get to choose the sort of immortality? Just think of Tithonus...

Yet hold me not for ever in thine East;
How can my nature longer mix with thine?
Coldly thy rosy shadows bathe me, cold
Are all thy lights, and cold my wrinkled feet
Upon thy glimmering thresholds, when the steam
Floats up from those dim fields about the homes
Of happy men that have the power to die,
And grassy barrows of the happier dead.
Release me, and restore me to the ground;
Thou seest all things, thou wilt see my grave:
Thou wilt renew thy beauty morn by morn;
I earth in earth forget these empty courts,
And thee returning on thy silver wheels.
(Tennyson (http://charon.sfsu.edu/TENNYSON/TITHONUS.HTML))

[Darat]

I like Brian Stableford's word "emortality" - in other words whilst develop the potential for immortality by "defeating" death and as Stableford explains: "captures the nature of endless life still subject to fatal accidents better than "immortality.""

Whether emortality would be bearable is really dependent on the society that it is set in - imagine facing nothing but the same 9-5 job at the insurance office for eternity....

[Iacchus]

To live forever as a mortal? Nope, not for me. That would be way too limiting, not to mention boring.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

A few observations:

If you get immortality with the ability to opt out, that's not immortality. Of course immortality would be fine if I could choose when to end it.

Immortality in a perfect "heaven" certainly sounds better than immortality in a life like we currently have. Particularly if one of the jury-rigged aspects of this heaven was that somehow I never got bored to tears with the relentless and never-ending perfection.


Immortality. With a functioning brain. And a functioning penis. How can you possibly get bored ? If it was possible, I would already have.
I do not think you are contemplating the difference between 50 years and forever. But saying so is what got me reamed last night, so I'll shut up about that now. :D

It's interesting that no one so far has mentioned that the idea of immortality gives them comfort. That came up in the conversation last night, but I didn't save a transcript, so I might be misremembering.

~~ Paul

[Complexity]

Death, in a few decades.

Constraint, a limited lifetime, in this case, energizes and motivates.

"Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with a rainy Sunday afternoon."
Susan Ertz

[Iacchus]

Well, if the difference between life and a life after life, were like the transition of a caterpillar into a butterfly, there might be hope.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

The only way I can figure this would work is if I was on some sort of "live for the moment" drug that just made me giddily happy all the time. But what would be the point of that?

Consider the oppression of your own memories after a billion years or so.

~~ Paul

[kedo1981]

Allow me to point out that the fundys believe everybody ends up being immortal, some are immortal in heaven, and some are immortal in “H E double toothpicks”.
It might be great to live a few billion years and fly around space, exploring different worlds, having profound truths revealed to you. I actually heard a tv preacher say that this is why there is so much of the universe, that each Christians will be given a vast area of space to rule as their kingdom.
“Pop!” goes your bubble, that ain’t biblical.

Heaven is described as mostly consisting of a new city of Jerusalem, peopled by those whose names are in the book of life and are given a new resurrected body.

That might be fun for a few billion years but if you still have free will what will (could) happen to your heavenly life in such vast amounts of time.

What happens if you remember your saintly grandpa, “boy he was great, he took me in when my own mother rejected me, it was just me and him against the sinful world.”
“You know, that old man knew more about the bible than ten God called preachers, taught me to love Jesus with all my heart, reckon that’s why I’m here today.”
“Boy, I’ve been up here a long time, you’d thought I’d run into him by now, oh, now I remember, I was there, at his death bed, the pain from the colon cancer sapped his faith, he cursed God on his dying breath; I guess he’s been roasting in hell all this time.”
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[Iacchus]

The only way I can figure this would work is if I was on some sort of "live for the moment" drug that just made me giddily happy all the time. But what would be the point of that?

Consider the oppression of your own memories after a billion years or so.Regarding the notion of Time in Heaven (http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh18.html) ...

169. The natural man might think that he would be deprived of all thought if the ideas of time, space, and material things were taken away; for upon these all the thought of man rests [18.3]. But let him know that so far as thoughts partake of time, space, and matter they are limited and confined, but are unlimited and extended so far as they do not partake of these, since the mind is in that measure raised above bodily and worldly things. This is the source of wisdom to the angels; and such wisdom as is called incomprehensible, because it does not fall into ideas that are wholly made up of what is material.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

As I said, Iacchus, if this immortality was rigged up to be unceasingly pleasant and fun, I suppose I'd go for it. But it would have to be a serious rig job.

~~ Paul

[Dogdoctor]

I think there are a couple considerations in my choice. Of course what quality of life would you have (healthy functioning normally etc)? The other thing would be is everyone else immortal too? If everyone else was immortal I would probably choose to not be immortal since it would eventually get boring. If I was the only one then perhaps depending on the quality of life.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

If you're going to be immortal while everyone else is dropping dead, you better have a thick skin when it comes to the accumulation of memories of those you have lost.

(Did I just mix metaphors or something?)

~~ Paul

[Seismosaurus]

Just how immortal are we talking? True immortality would meant that you'd be the last thing to exist when the entire remainder of the universe had died out and turned to dust. A trillion years floating in a universe alone, nobody to talk to, nothing to do? No thanks.

Give me a million years or a billion years, that I'd like. But forever? No thanks.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I say no opt-out. Immortal is immortal. But even immortal until the universe is cold and dead sounds pretty horrendous to me.

~~ Paul

[Dogdoctor]

If you're going to be immortal while everyone else is dropping dead, you better have a thick skin when it comes to the accumulation of memories of those you have lost.

(Did I just mix metaphors or something?)

~~ Paul
You have lots of time to get used to it :)

[tkingdoll]

Our memories can only hold so much information so it's possible that you'd only remember the past few hundred years or so of your life anyway. If that was the case, I could handle the idea of immortality, just about, but the idea of living a good and fulfilling life for 80ish years then going nicely to sleep is more appealing.

Most people waste their lives on trash anyway, imagine a billion years of watching reality TV...

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

And now, episode 3,208,476,395 of "The Life of Paul."

If that doesn't make you cringe, you're just a giddy fool. :tv:

~~ Paul

[CheeseDude]

Quick calculation. If you take $100 US and invest it in a very conservative account with a 5% annual return, in 471 years you will have about a trillion dollars. I can wait.:D

[Vagabond]

Just how immortal are we talking? True immortality would meant that you'd be the last thing to exist when the entire remainder of the universe had died out and turned to dust. A trillion years floating in a universe alone, nobody to talk to, nothing to do? No thanks.

Give me a million years or a billion years, that I'd like. But forever? No thanks.

"For what could any entity, conscious of eternal existance, want, but an end?" Issac Asimov

From the outstanding short story "The Last Answer" in which he postulates that GOD created us in order to seek and find the manner of his own end.

[Serenity]

I would choose immortality. I think it will happen eventually or we’ll come close if we don’t kill ourselves first. I can imagine a time when people will be given the option to live as long as they'd like. Ray Kurzweil talks about the singularity being near; within 20 years or so. We’re approaching the knee of that technological curve that will transform our lives in unseen ways. Artificial Intelligence will do amazing things for us in our lifetime. Maybe our destiny is to integrate with it. Our biological model evolves too slow. We're on the doorstep of taking over the reigns. At some point it will make sense to replace the chassis with something better and more efficient. Who knows, In a hundred years or so we might come to the conclusion that our carbon based bodies should be phased out for something more durable. Cosmetic surgery for the old (or all) might be an entirely new form of existence.

If we can continue to evolve unimpeded and avoid catastrophy for a few hundred years, we'll have a shot at becoming god-like. We also need to start colonizing other planets or building artificial space stations soon. Every day here, is one day closer to an Extinction Level Event , external or self imposed. You don’t want all your eggs in one basket when that day comes. One Dark Age was enough.

[Vagabond]

There was a story long ago called "friends come in boxes". I can't remember the author. But, in the story they would clone your body without a brain. They would wait until this body was a year old or so and then they would implant your brain into this body and you would have another life. The title came from the fact the brains would be kept alive in boxes until the new body was ready and people would be like a foster family. Keeping you company until it was time. Very good story. The thought of 1 year olds running around with the brains of people who have lived hundreds of years always facinated me.

[Iacchus]

As I said, Iacchus, if this immortality was rigged up to be unceasingly pleasant and fun, I suppose I'd go for it. But it would have to be a serious rig job.Agreed.

[Wheezebucket]

I still maintain that I'm ok with pretty much anything as long as it's not immortality like that one Outer Limits episode. Where you're still conscious in your dead body and you just kinda...hang out.

So many options for immortality, which to choose?

[El Greco]

Look, it's that simple: By the time you will have had sex with the last woman on earth, you will have forgotten how it was with the first one. Can you see the endless loop ?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

The operative word is endless.

~~ Paul

[Melendwyr]

At the risk of being repetitious, I would like to once again recommend Diaspora by Greg Egan. His earlier short stories about the Ndoli Jewel are also worth reading.

Below is a link to one of the Ndoli Jewel stories.

Border Guards (http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/BORDER/Complete/Border.html)

[El Greco]

The operative word is endless.

No, the operative word is forgotten.

[gnome]

As a limited human, I think a few hundred would be about my lot. I'd eventually get tired of it all and wish to let go. Or if it had to be longer, I might arrange some centuries of rest, to skip ahead and see what's coming. Given extraordinary abilities to learn and explore the universe, and I could stay busy for aeons. But I think even so eventually I would be ready to stop.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

No, the operative word is forgotten.
You may forget what the women were like, but you would not forget that you were just doing this over and over and over ...

~~ Paul

[Kopji]

I don't think we can give a meaningful answer from here.
Humans are what they have evolved into because of a finite and fairly short life.

Given infinite life we would be something different and have different ideas about it.

[Wheezebucket]

I think it's clear the Immies will be just fine on our own in their giant orbitting eternal space station above the planet. Enjoy your 80 years on Earth and war with Cyber-Apes, normies!

I wonder how your personality might develop if given hundreds if not thousands of years to mill about?

[Serenity]

I don't think we can give a meaningful answer from here.
Humans are what they have evolved into because of a finite and fairly short life.

Given infinite life we would be something different and have different ideas about it.
Maybe you meant we couldn't give an accurate answer, not a meaningful one. I would agree with that.
I think pondering outside the box creates a meaningful start in addressing this topic. The first generation that grapples with this issue will have to consider the impact of immortality (or very long life) before it ever happens. Just because our answer today might not be accurate shouldn't stop us from beginning a dialogue. Considering these possibilities now gives us a headstart in debating its ramifications. We might be on the verge of extending the human lifespan significantly within our lifetime. We should already be preparing for these inevitable realities.

[PixyMisa]

Consider the oppression of your own memories after a billion years or so.
A billion years? Half the time I can't remember what I did last week.

Immortality, thanks.

[roger]

Immortality for me. I don't know what bored means.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

A billion years? Half the time I can't remember what I did last week.
Perhaps, but I bet you can remember the emotions.


Immortality for me. I don't know what bored means.
You will after the heat death, dude.

~~ Paul

[Serenity]

Immortality for me. I don't know what bored means.
One might say it's when irresponsible climbers drive pitons into an Easter Head. :(

[PixyMisa]

Perhaps, but I bet you can remember the emotions.
Some of them, yeah.

But look, are we talking about immortality, infinite life, but with the same old finite human brain? Stuff will just fall out of it after a few centuries. It's just not built for that.

You will after the heat death, dude.
Doesn't work.

If you are the product of a material brain, you can't exist after the heat death of the universe. If you are an immaterial mind, the heat death of the universe is irrelevant.

Infinite life is only possible in an infinite universe where there are necessarily an infinite variety of experiences to, uh, experience, so you need never be bored.

[Beleth]

How would we ever know we were immortal? All we know is that we haven't died yet.

[merentha]

Only if it comes with the power to smite people who irritate me. Otherwise, thanks, but I'll pass.

[merentha]

How would we ever know we were immortal? All we know is that we haven't died yet.

How do you know that you're not already dead and this is the Afterlife? ;)

[El Greco]

You may forget what the women were like, but you would not forget that you were just doing this over and over and over ...

I certainly hope I won't! Over and over and over... I never thought that the idea of immortality could turn me on...

[Soapy Sam]

Who was it "said some long for immortality who are bored on a wet Sunday afternoon...?"

Immortality behind the counter of a 7-11?

Immortality with arthritis?

Immortality with memory of all the stupid mistakes you made, all the "meaningful relationships" you've had?
(What relationship can be "meaningful" against a background of forever?)

Love does not last until the seas run dry and mountains melt with the sun.
It lasts a lifetime if we are lucky.

Suns take billions of years to run their course and from the point of view of an immortal they are like flashguns at a pop concert. Flickers of light.

The awful , spirit and mind crushing weight of the word "forever" is a horror which could only end in insanity by any human measure. Yet it does not end. Ever.

If god exists, and we are made in his image, he is probably insane.

Human worth, human achievement, human value, honour, bravery, love - anything we do is only of value measured against the baseline of death. Mortality is our gift, our reason for everything we do, our sole justification for spitting in the face of the universe. We curse and we laugh and we die.

I can imagine no greater horror, no more awful evil than immortality.

[Angus McPresley]

Do you want immortality?

Yep.

[El Greco]

Immortality behind the counter of a 7-11?

Yes, and orgies at night

Immortality with arthritis?

You can be pretty sure that when we reach immortality arthritis will be long gone.

Immortality with memory of all the stupid mistakes you made, all the "meaningful relationships" you've had?
(What relationship can be "meaningful" against a background of forever?)

1. You don't know how your brain would get rewired after 3 billion years.

2. Who said you have to be limited to one relationship ?

3. With enough time, there would be virtually no mistakes worth thinking about.

Love does not last until the seas run dry and mountains melt with the sun.
It lasts a lifetime if we are lucky.

Yep, that's about one love. But why limit yourself to one ?

The awful , spirit and mind crushing weight of the word "forever" is a horror which could only end in insanity by any human measure. Yet it does not end. Ever.

Perhaps, but this is only because human measures are currently tailored to a finite life. If immortality was real, human measures would be a lot different.

Besides, the brain has limited capacity, a la LIFO. After a certain point you'd be having memories only from the last 300 years or so.

[El Greco]

Imagine we finally make a computer program that can replicate a human brain, only that we know every single feature and function of that brain. We can delete negative feelings and keep just happiness and excitement. This is how I imagine immortality. When something is good, you don't want it to end. You don't get bored of it, simply because you can delete boredom as well.

[merentha]

Imagine we finally make a computer program that can replicate a human brain, only that we know every single feature and function of that brain. We can delete negative feelings and keep just happiness and excitement. This is how I imagine immortality. When something is good, you don't want it to end. You don't get bored of it, simply because you can delete boredom as well.

In other words, immortality on crack.

[El Greco]

In other words, immortality on crack.

Immortality is crack by definition.

Mind you, crack is a wonderful thing if you get rid of the side effects.

[Imaginative]

Sign me up for Immortality but watch out for the small print :

*The law of averages are against you. With an infinite life span, at some stage you will encounter a fatal accident. Just be careful out there.

[Soapy Sam]

El Greco- Paul's OP was asking about immortality for us. Humans.
He says nothing about it happening a million years from now when we have cured all illness and achieved harmony, sweetness and light throughout the universe. He's asking about us, here and now.

My point is that humans are in no way adapted to cope with the stresses of immortality and that any creature that was would in no way be human.

Offered a million year span of awareness I would unhesitatingly take it. Offered a billion, I would give it some thought- say a century or two.
Offered immortality, I would dismiss it out of hand.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Doesn't work.

If you are the product of a material brain, you can't exist after the heat death of the universe. If you are an immaterial mind, the heat death of the universe is irrelevant.
It's immortality forever, like it or not. I can't define it, I don't know what it means, but there you are forever. Otherwise it's an opt-out situation, which just doesn't seem fair. Of course everyone would go for an opt-out situation.

(I'm not claiming this thread is coherent. :D)

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I think it's clear the Immies will be just fine on our own in their giant orbitting eternal space station above the planet. Enjoy your 80 years on Earth and war with Cyber-Apes, normies!
At a meeting of the Immie Steering Committee (ISC) last evening, it was decided that all Immies will wear uniforms with color chosen from the following: teal, mauve, strawberry, black, or silver. Special requests can be made and one was granted: pink. However, no chartreuse or taupe uniforms will be allowed.

It may be confusing to some that I was present at the ISC meeting when I am an avowed Normie. This confusion will be cleared up at a later date.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

In other words, immortality on crack.
It seems clear to me that all the Immies imagine a crack-based utopia for their immortal realm. Otherwise they would admit that the prospect sounds horrendous.

~~ Paul

[roger]

So if there is heat death, but we continue to exist, that means that we are not of this universe. So, if we are pretending that, I'll pretend I can scoot off to some other universe and continue living there. I'll also pretend that I'll never develop a permanent mental disease while we're at it. Then Paul will repost and pretend that those are not options available to me.

IOW, in make believe it's easy enough to make up some conditions that would either make us want to continue to live, or not to. What's the point in that game?

[DreadNiK]

So if there is heat death, but we continue to exist, that means that we are not of this universe. So, if we are pretending that, I'll pretend I can scoot off to some other universe and continue living there. I'll also pretend that I'll never develop a permanent mental disease while we're at it. Then Paul will repost and pretend that those are not options available to me.

IOW, in make believe it's easy enough to make up some conditions that would either make us want to continue to live, or not to. What's the point in that game?

Yeah that's the problem I've always had with this question...

It is more a question that reveals people's logical faculties, and personal preferences, than one with any valid answer...

"Would you opt for immortality in the form of a fish?"

Surely part of what makes us what we are is our mortality?

[Melendwyr]

The Many Worlds hypothesis implies that we already have immortality, whether we want it or not.

Surprise...

[Iacchus]

The Many Worlds hypothesis implies that we already have immortality, whether we want it or not.

Surprise...Does this mean everything is bound up in potential? If so, where does this potential reside?

[Serenity]

[quote]Yeah that's the problem I've always had with this question...
It is more a question that reveals people's logical faculties, and personal preferences, than one with any valid answer...

True to an extent. No one expects much in the way of valid answers at the onset. Through careful deliberation and contemplation an understanding will emerge. How do we react on the first day of legitimately declared immortality or to be more realistic, extremely long life-spans. The cracking of the aging process. Are we not programmed to die? Maybe it’s a matter of changing the programming.

"Would you opt for immortality in the form of a fish?"

That would be impractical from our standpoint now, of course. Maybe we'll end up as some machine hybrid or our bodies replaced entirely by something better with our consciousness intact. I’d say we’re at the infant stage of the merging of man and machine right now. Brain damage reversal and neural enhancements (improving memory, spatial skills, etc…) will probably follow. The future will hopefully be bright if we don’t screw it up.
Surely part of what makes us what we are is our mortality?
What we are continues to evolve. I imagine a time when people will look back in horror at our present day lifespan. We're just beginning to emerge from the Dark Ages of medicine.

[Beerina]

So I just got myself a good reaming on Skepticsrock for suggesting, nay, insisting that immortality would soon become horrifically boring and people would opt out of it.

Well, I do know that 74 years, if you're lucky, sure as hell isn't enough. I can easily conceive of living 3-500 years no sweat, without boredom. Several thousand, more likely. If you cure obesity and the work week is 3 hours long, probably a lot more than that since pigging out on pizzas and greasy cheeseburgers is extremely satisfying.


Some folks were claiming that they would like to live forever. I was insistent that it would become unbearable.

People got angry with me for claiming to know their feelings on the matter better than they did. Fair enough. But we also touched on the idea that the thought of immortality is somehow comforting. I don't understand this. I asked why, but I don't think I got an answer.

Well, here are some issues for those planning to live forever:

- Even curing or preventing every single disease known to mankind as well as general old age, you'll still more likely than not die in an accident in something like 5,000 years. Living a careful life, plus extremely advanced technology that can save all but the most destructive of accidents might get you 20k-100k years, but sooner or later the statistics will catch up with you. Even if you get to a million without faceplanting in a plane at 500mph, there are still the issues of murders and the like.

I read a sci-fi story once where, in the distant future, if you got into physical trouble, your body would automatically shut down and go into a long term storage/protection mode, awaiting rescue, rather than let the cells die off. Hence drowning even would not be a problem.

But deliberate acts and severe accidents will always be around. Even if you avoid doing any risky things, a plane might have an emergency landing on your bedroom at 3 in the morning.


- It's ok to imagine, as I do, chugging pizza and burgers and stir-fry 24/7 into a perpetually healthy body, but for millions of years? Billions? Googolplex years? And we're only just getting started.

- In the very long term, start thinking goolol years down the road, mathematically there are only a finite number of meaningfully different combinations of atoms and whatnot that can occur, so repetition is inevitable. The only way around this will be partial mind wipes to keep things fresh. Indeed, the most obvious way around the Fermii paradox is that this is happening already. It also solves the one objection that we're about to kill ourselves off. Specifically, the argument that, since you exist now, and that the population is growing rapidly, that it's more likely that we're about to wipe ourselves out than that you just happened to be born in the early stages of human existance. Of course, that argument could be told to Thomas Jefferson or Jesus or Hammurabi or some Egyptian king 10,000 years ago, and they would have also thought humanity about to expire by the same logic and they'd have been wrong.


I brought up god and "ultimate purpose," too, but people claimed that had nothing to do with the matter. However, I noticed that peoples' picture of this immortality seemed all nice and happy and limitless (they mentioned exploring new worlds and such). This sounds like some sort of heaven to me, not mundane immortality. It was as if immortality would be cool as long as it was also perfect.

Well, I reject the notion that evil must exist in order for good to have meaning. Going back to the cheeseburger and pizza concept, I don't have to be starving just to have great enjoyment of them. Nor does torture need to exist in order to enjoy an orgasm. I think people could exist for a long while just enjoying the positive aspects without needing the negative ones. Not forever, for that you'd need the regular partial mind-wipes, but for quite awhile.

[Beerina]

To live forever as a mortal? Nope, not for me. That would be way too limiting, not to mention boring.

You would still suffer the same long-term problems as an angel or whatever in Heaven. Indeed you'd run out of things to do even sooner since sex with total strangers for non-reproductive purposes would be banned, not to mention the gluttony of cheesburger consumption.

Unless you propose, as some do, that merely worshipping in the presence of God is more pleasurable than a 14 year old boy ejaculating inside his hot, 42 year old English teacher, for the very first time. In that case, I'd agree with you, although an extended life as a mortal wouldn't suck, either.

Let's solve the "70 year old" problem, first, and then re-visit the issue in our 500's. Everyone agreed?

[Beerina]

Death, in a few decades.

Constraint, a limited lifetime, in this case, energizes and motivates.

"Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with a rainy Sunday afternoon."
Susan Ertz

Ah, but yes, what is motivation for? It is to make things better. If all wants and needs are satisfied, you can still have a motivation for pleasure, for a hedonistic lifestyle. Motivation as enabler of a moral work ethic has meaning only in a reality in which a work ethic is useful.

I'll pass on the next reality if it ennobles a work ethic.

[Soapy Sam]

Sounds good to me.
But can we work on the "50 year old" thing too?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

So if there is heat death, but we continue to exist, that means that we are not of this universe. So, if we are pretending that, I'll pretend I can scoot off to some other universe and continue living there. I'll also pretend that I'll never develop a permanent mental disease while we're at it. Then Paul will repost and pretend that those are not options available to me.

immortal:

1 : exempt from death *the immortal gods*
2 : exempt from oblivion : IMPERISHABLE *immortal fame*

I don't mean to keep moving the goalposts, but, as many people have said, it's not clear where the goalposts are anyway. You can put the goalpost anywhere you like, but I think it has to be pretty far away. Otherwise it's an opt-out immortality, which doesn't count. I guess immortal until the end of the universe is pretty reasonable. Certainly past my limit.

One of my primary reasons for asking this question is that people said, I thin, that the idea of immortality gave them comfort. I've heard people say the same about reincarnation and about going to Heaven. I don't understand this. What is it about any of these things that is comforting? Is there some sort of "inherent comfort" in them?

~~ Paul

[Serenity]

[quote]Well, I do know that 74 years, if you're lucky, sure as hell isn't enough. I can easily conceive of living 3-500 years no sweat, without boredom. Several thousand, more likely. If you cure obesity and the work week is 3 hours long, probably a lot more than that since pigging out on pizzas and greasy cheeseburgers is extremely satisfying.
Quest for knowledge and social interaction will be what drives us. Food (sad for me to say this but I’m trying to imagine the future here) will be unnecessary. We will have found a better way for sustenance. Our bodies seem terribly inefficient. For gosh sakes, we have to feed them several times a day. I will miss a good surf & turf or greasy burger too. I’m sure by then there will be better substitutes.


Well, here are some issues for those planning to live forever:

- Even curing or preventing every single disease known to mankind as well as general old age, you'll still more likely than not die in an accident in something like 5,000 years. Living a careful life, plus extremely advanced technology that can save all but the most destructive of accidents might get you 20k-100k years, but sooner or later the statistics will catch up with you. Even if you get to a million without faceplanting in a plane at 500mph, there are still the issues of murders and the like.

By then don’t you think we would’ve shed our fragile bodies? Not to mention individuals would likely have their consciousness backed up for regeneration? Maybe that’s available on the the premium plan only… not sure. I foresee us more as balls of energy consciousness in the distant future where winged modes of transportation would be a burp in some historical archive.

I read a sci-fi story once where, in the distant future, if you got into physical trouble, your body would automatically shut down and go into a long term storage/protection mode, awaiting rescue, rather than let the cells die off. Hence drowning even would not be a problem.
Fascinating concept! Never heard it before.


But deliberate acts and severe accidents will always be around. Even if you avoid doing any risky things, a plane might have an emergency landing on your bedroom at 3 in the morning.

- It's ok to imagine, as I do, chugging pizza and burgers and stir-fry 24/7 into a perpetually healthy body, but for millions of years? Billions? Googolplex years? And we're only just getting started.

The universe by then might feel constraining. It will become the fish tank that the Earth is to us now. That I envision might be our most difficult task to break free of. Escape or create into alternate universes… as concerns about depleting the existing universe’s energy supplies grow to fever pitch.

- In the very long term, start thinking goolol years down the road, mathematically there are only a finite number of meaningfully different combinations of atoms and whatnot that can occur, so repetition is inevitable. The only way around this will be partial mind wipes to keep things fresh. Indeed, the most obvious way around the Fermii paradox is that this is happening already. It also solves the one objection that we're about to kill ourselves off. Specifically, the argument that, since you exist now, and that the population is growing rapidly, that it's more likely that we're about to wipe ourselves out than that you just happened to be born in the early stages of human existance. Of course, that argument could be told to Thomas Jefferson or Jesus or Hammurabi or some Egyptian king 10,000 years ago, and they would have also thought humanity about to expire by the same logic and they'd have been wrong.
Your finite number exists from the combinations known today. Maybe we’ve just scratched the surface in terms of granularity?

Well, I reject the notion that evil must exist in order for good to have meaning. Going back to the cheeseburger and pizza concept, I don't have to be starving just to have great enjoyment of them. Nor does torture need to exist in order to enjoy an orgasm. I think people could exist for a long while just enjoying the positive aspects without needing the negative ones. Not forever, for that you'd need the regular partial mind-wipes, but for quite awhile.
I agree except for the mindwiping segment. Mindwiping might be useful to expunge irrelevant or negative memory. I’m not sure I quite understand the redundancy problem rising to the debilitating level you suggest. Redundancy for any other reason except "backup" purposes would likely get pruned.

We would hopefully be wise enough as a super intelligent civilization not to expand beyond the limits of our resources and quality of being. What worries me is the future of individuality. A passionless Borg-like race existence is not the future I would create or want to participate in. Without emotions as the driving force to our logic, we lose the hallmark of our humanity. What irony if a machine-like form or incorporeal existence is what’s required to save that.

[Serenity]

immortal:

1 : exempt from death *the immortal gods*
2 : exempt from oblivion : IMPERISHABLE *immortal fame*

I don't mean to keep moving the goalposts, but, as many people have said, it's not clear where the goalposts are anyway. You can put the goalpost anywhere you like, but I think it has to be pretty far away. Otherwise it's an opt-out immortality, which doesn't count. I guess immortal until the end of the universe is pretty reasonable. Certainly past my limit.

One of my primary reasons for asking this question is that people said, I thin, that the idea of immortality gave them comfort. I've heard people say the same about reincarnation and about going to Heaven. I don't understand this. What is it about any of these things that is comforting? Is there some sort of "inherent comfort" in them?

~~ Paul
I would take no solace in reincarnation. To me, that’s like dying. You live on with "maybe" a vague memory of a previous life… not good enough.

[Dogdoctor]

Just imagine, You will be able to swim to the depths of the deepest ocean and climb the highest mountain and infact go into outer space without a space suit.

[Beleth]

How do you know that you're not already dead and this is the Afterlife? ;)Because people die here too.

[Beerina]

Sounds good to me.
But can we work on the "50 year old" thing too?


Viagra. Done and done! Next?

[merentha]

Because people die here too.

Who is to say that the "eternal afterlife" is not just a series of "afterlives" and "death" is like the pressing of the reset button to a new afterlife? In a sense, the belief in reincarnation is a belief in immortality.

[Beleth]

Who is to say that the "eternal afterlife" is not just a series of "afterlives" and "death" is like the pressing of the reset button to a new afterlife? In a sense, the belief in reincarnation is a belief in immortality.
An afterlife is different than a reset button. While both are forms of afterdeath, if you will, afterlife implies that you never have to go through pre-afterlife again.

In my earlier days I posited that maybe there's just one soul, and that it not only hops between people who have just died and people who have been conceived, but that it jumps backwards in time too, so that this one soul, at the end of everything, will have lived every life ever. But it was kind of a goofy idea.

[Kopji]

Maybe you meant we couldn't give an accurate answer, not a meaningful one. I would agree with that.
I think pondering outside the box creates a meaningful start in addressing this topic. The first generation that grapples with this issue will have to consider the impact of immortality (or very long life) before it ever happens. Just because our answer today might not be accurate shouldn't stop us from beginning a dialogue. Considering these possibilities now gives us a headstart in debating its ramifications. We might be on the verge of extending the human lifespan significantly within our lifetime. We should already be preparing for these inevitable realities.

Ok. Humm. The thing I think that would keep us from killing ourselves from boredom would be 'shared consciousness'. Many of the holy grails of woodom today could be accessed with technology: Telepathy especially, sharing experiences on an entirely new and more direct level via new interfaces with the brain.

Without gaining more access to each other, eternal life would be like living the movie Groundhog Day: taking only slightly longer to resolve all the permutations. (Eternity is a really long time compared to the longest finite).

[Angus McPresley]

There's two different things people mean when they mention immortality.

The first -- the immortality that's impervious to death -- applies to (supposedly) God, our souls, Highlander, etc.

The other is the kind that might someday be achievable, if we conquer disease and aging; the kind where you don't have to die, but it's possible via accident (and maybe even inevitable, if the expansion of the universe is "open" and destined for heat death).

It's hard to imagine being opposed to the second kind (though some are). You could always suicide and be out of it. Some people here, though, seem to be assuming the question is asking about the first kind. It's really two separate questions.

[Angus McPresley]

In the very long term, start thinking goolol years down the road, mathematically there are only a finite number of meaningfully different combinations of atoms and whatnot that can occur, so repetition is inevitable.


I disagree, totally. Maybe if our brains were digital, but they're not, by a long shot. Given what we know about the interplay of atoms, repetition of a particular brain state is not only not inevitable, it's well nigh impossible.

Not to mention the fact that an upper limit on brain growth has not been established. Without that, no claims about the inevitability of repetition can be made.

[Angus McPresley]

There's an interesting (I think) question related to this topic, which we even get to know the answer to in our lifetimes --

Are the (very broad) personality trends associated with aging ("crotchetiness", lack of desire to learn new things, distrust of modern advances, etc.) a product of:
a) the number of years you've spent on the planet? or;
b) your proximity to death?

In other words, in your opinion, if our lifespans are expanded to, say, 300 years, will 80- and 90-year-olds still exhibit these traits, or will it not happen until people are 280 or 290 or so?

[gnome]

I recently read a graphic novel that touched on this: House of Secrets. I won't say much because it's full of surprises... but there is a place of judgment and sentencing. Those that succesfully plead their case get sentenced to "Natural Death". Those that fail get sentenced to "Eternal Life".

[Imaginative]

In my earlier days I posited that maybe there's just one soul, and that it not only hops between people who have just died and people who have been conceived, but that it jumps backwards in time too, so that this one soul, at the end of everything, will have lived every life ever. But it was kind of a goofy idea.

I had a similar idea as this but my one incorporated the many worlds theory, so that in any world where you died, all your memories became part of the master version of yourself. When all the other versions had died in their worlds, what would be left is the one world where immortality existed and a means to harvest information from your other versions using some sort of advanced technology, so you would end up with the Ultimate Being version of yourself that knows everything there is to know. Also equally goofy, but what the hell.

[Z]

I want immorality... is that ok?

[Serenity]

Ok. Humm. The thing I think that would keep us from killing ourselves from boredom would be 'shared consciousness'. Many of the holy grails of woodom today could be accessed with technology: Telepathy especially, sharing experiences on an entirely new and more direct level via new interfaces with the brain.
Agreed. Here’s a movie excerpt that moved me:

We are alone. For millions of years
we've searched the cosmos... and
after all the suffering, after all
the chaos and desolation of the void
-- the one thing we've found that
makes the emptiness bearable is each
other. That's why I sent the
message. That's why I made contact.



Without gaining more access to each other, eternal life would be like living the movie Groundhog Day: taking only slightly longer to resolve all the permutations. (Eternity is a really long time compared to the longest finite).
I agree. Don’t get me wrong, I like “Groundhog Day” re-runs but to live it; forget it – leave it to Murray. Telepathy is good… a Bluetooth version, so I can wander off and have my privacy.

I think you were blurring the lines between a shared conscious and a shared link between consciousnesses. The shared link is crucial for more efficient communication – our current version of such an animal being the internet. No disagreement here. Shared consciousness is something more. Do you have one supercomputer that doles out Consciousness-Per-Units (CPU) time to networked individuals (sounds precarious) or maintain autonomy but encourage interconnectedness between consciousnesses. I’m prejudiced towards the latter. It would really suck if we end up becoming dummy terminals, plus having one supercomputer runs the risk of Jeff Goldblum uploading some pesky virus. I hope we’ll be running Linux then.

[ruach1]

It seems that what most people are talking about here is everlasting life, not immortality. To be immortal, one has to have been an immortal all along within the time reference of timelessness.

Everlasting life is not immortality. Within a Christian frame of reference, everlasting life (not immortality) is received when the individual, who, after having faith or aligning the heart with the Love of Christ, receives the Spirit of God into the heart/soul/psyche/consciousness by and through the "connection" Christ has with/as God the Father: Elohim, Adonai, Yahweh. How the "soul" continues on with everlasting life is not known exactly, however, one would surmise that everlasting life in the Love of God as a Spirit regenerated "soul" would be blissful and easily tolerated throughout eternity.

[Iacchus]

I recently read a graphic novel that touched on this: House of Secrets. I won't say much because it's full of surprises... but there is a place of judgment and sentencing. Those that succesfully plead their case get sentenced to "Natural Death". Those that fail get sentenced to "Eternal Life".Zardoz (http://www.allmovie.com/cg/avg.dll?p=avg&sql=1:56115~C)

[Serenity]

Zardoz (http://www.allmovie.com/cg/avg.dll?p=avg&sql=1:56115~C)
Looks interesting. Consider it on my "soon to view" list.

[Kopji]

Serenity - 'yeah'. There would need to be a whole new ethic of privacy established if we could share our thoughts. Telepathy or 'mind reading' is a kind of mental violation or assault if it really existed as some people think it does.

Ruach - I think what I really mean is eternal youth. You can't be twenty on sugar mountain. If we are not happy about how eternity is being spent, it's probably not going to matter much whether we call it one thing or the other.

This was a question I used to pester my Sunday school teachers about - 'what are we going to do with all that time?' This btw, is not that huge a trick question for Mormon types because there is an idea that 'heaven' is not a static place of blissful clouds and harps, but a place of new challenges and adventure, etc.

The difference between saying 'eternal life' and 'life everlasting' seems entirely aesthetic to me. Maybe if science delivers on it, it will be called eternal life, and if religion delivers it, it will be called life everlasting.

Back to my earlier comment tho, I do not see how can get anywhere by discussing the infinite in a predictive sense. Any connection of the finite and infinite is chaotic. It only seems like a tiny leap but is really an entirely different universe. Trying to draw a line from here to there may entertain us but is ultimately doomed.

I don't see any way of meaningfully saying that in some way what we do will ever matter compared to the rest of our (proposed) everlasting life. A super intelligent deity-like alien scientist who would determine our 'reward' that way is not good or evil, but chaotic.

[PixyMisa]

Ok. Humm. The thing I think that would keep us from killing ourselves from boredom would be 'shared consciousness'. Many of the holy grails of woodom today could be accessed with technology: Telepathy especially, sharing experiences on an entirely new and more direct level via new interfaces with the brain.
Yick.

Mobile phones are bad enough. I don't want to know what most people are thinking.

How about email?

[Belz...]

What _I_ would want ?

Reincarnation.

Not the crappy (sorry Ryokan) buddhist type where you don't remember your past lives... no no. The kind where, once you die, you get to CHOOSE your next species, and then you remember SOME of your past lives, but only completely between lives. Of course, that'd be MY first choice only because I'd get to try new cool things... unfortunately, death is the only choice for us.... so sad.

[CheeseDude]

unfortunately, death is the only choice for us.... so sad.
Depends how you look at it. If I believed in reincarnation I would spend a lot of time preparing for it. I don't believe in reincarnation, therefore I believe that I only get one shot at life. Makes me appreciate my time here more. I'd rather spend my time making this life the best I can.

[Belz...]

Depends how you look at it. If I believed in reincarnation I would spend a lot of time preparing for it. I don't believe in reincarnation, therefore I believe that I only get one shot at life. Makes me appreciate my time here more. I'd rather spend my time making this life the best I can.

So ? Death is still the only outcome, no matter HOW you look at it or WHAT you believe in.

[CheeseDude]

So ? Death is still the only outcome, no matter HOW you look at it or WHAT you believe in.
I agree. But many believe that there is something after death even if you and I see no evidence for this. I maintain that life is more precious when you only get one shot at it.

[Complexity]

I maintain that life is more precious when you only get one shot at it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Hindmost]

I suppose if the universe is infinite and we did have some type of immortality available, there just might be an infinite number of challenges out there...but I don't think that I am up to it at my age.

To live with immortality, our minds would have to change to accommodate what we now would perceive as boredom ....erase that and it might be tolerable. (don't sign me up tho...)

Need to be able to drink wine too.


A good read: "The Boat of a Million Years" by Poul Anderson

second choice: "The World at the End of time" Frederick Pohl


glenn:boxedin:

[CheeseDude]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
:th:

[jimmygun]

Immortality, be it earthly or heavenly, poses the same problem to me. What purpose is life if there is no death? The whole human (and other animal) existance is to be born, to bear, and to bow out. All three are symbiotic. There is no other reason for our existance.

Would I prefer an everlasting existance here on earth while others kept coming and going? I think I would feel too left out of things. I would know that to attach myself emotionally to anyone would end in pain and suffering for both of us. After a few times of trial and unchanging results I would withdraw into a shell and insulate myself from the whole mess.

Where is the reward in that?

[Corpse Cruncher]

Death, from a family perspective the idea of seeing your children grow up and have some, hopefully, of their own is wonderful. The appeal of immortality is lacking. I would rather live my years and pop off at my allotted time.

Being alive forever, now do you age if you do at some point you will become too frail to do anything for yourself. To stay the same age as you are now, no it is plain wrong. I find the whole idea of immortality freaky and somewhat sickening.

I like the order of things as they are now, birth, growth and death.

[Imaginative]

If imortality became a reality, would Religion die out ?

[CheeseDude]

If imortality became a reality, would Religion die out ?
Brilliant! That's a wonderful question. No afterlife = no rewards or punishments. What would God do all by himself?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

He'd have to take up zapping us with lightning in this world.

~~ Paul

[TJ]

Immortality. With a functioning brain. And a functioning penis. How can you possibly get bored ? If it was possible, I would already have.

bump

[Seb1]

If you ask people, I think most of them would like to live a little while longer irrespectively how old they are. Why want to die?
To exist must always be better than to not exist. And I assume our technological development will soon make eternal life possible, and we should also be able to upgrade ourselves so that we won't define us as humans in the future. Whith endless development why should we get bored?

[Soapy Sam]

Immortality. Inability to die.

Forget procreation. You can't have kids, because they don't die.

Forget promotion, because the boss never dies either.

Forget progress, because the folks at the top see no reason to change.

Only you can't forget. Anything. Because the little grey cells are immortal too.

Or are we all assuming immortality applies only to us?

Imagine immortality in a world of mortals and dwell for a moment on the horror of it. Only a moment. Imagine dwelling on it forever.

No. Soddit. I WANT to die.

But not this day.

[Seb1]

"Forget procreation. You can't have kids, because they don't die."
Of course you can. It's gonna be a little bit crowded down here on earth though, so we better expand a bit, there's the moon, mars, and thousands of other places in the solar system and other places in the galaxy. Just as we explored earth it's in our nature to continue to explore the universe.

"Forget promotion, because the boss never dies either."
Just as the labor market has developed it will continue to do so, creating new jobs and new branches and new markets. And you could have many different careers during your thousands of years of life or longer.

"Forget progress, because the folks at the top see no reason to change."
Yes, but there will always be competition, forcing change and progress.

I think you have a very pessimistic view on humanity and humans. Why would we stop to grow and develop just because we wouldn't die?

[Riddick]

#1: so your position is, that posting on jref throughout immortality would be boring. can you project what year posting on jref and/or attending TAM64 will become boring?

[Soapy Sam]

Seb1- I have a very pessimistic view of immortality. My view of humanity is irrelevant.
Remember that Paul's question is not about a hypothetical future where all problems have been solved and everything is possible. It's about reality.
If nobody ever dies, (even of starvation), we would have maybe one generation to discover the energy and propulsion systems we need to get off Earth en masse, before increasing demand stripped the world of usable energy sources and trapped us here forever, probably locked in an everlasting and unwinnable war over dwindling resources.

Immortality might mean we could solve all such problems in time, but it does not give us the time.Nor would it make us more cooperative.Any idea how fast 6 billion humans could expand to fill all the real estate in the solar system if none of them died?
You think everyone would be able to maintain a constantly rising standard of living?
What about the ones who don't get off Earth soon? What when all the oil is gone, the coal, the clean water, the land- and more people just keep being born, none of whom ever die?
Sheesh. Give it a minute's thought. And thank your lucky stars for the Grim Reaper.

[Seb1]

Of course immortality would mean enourmus difficulties, if it was available to everyone. And I don't think our nature would change just because we were immortal. There would still be wars and poverty, uneven distribution of wealth.
I just see no reason it would mean the stop of development.
And as for myself, I would very much remain young, youthful and immortal, no matter the long term consequences.
I think the technological development could mean we could perhaps escape the boundaries of our mortal bodies which also would mean we could live in cyberspace, consuming virtually no energy, and also in a few million years have spread across the galaxy.
But for the short term, I agree immortality would result in enormous difficulties..

[Beerina]

There would still be wars and poverty, uneven distribution of wealth.

Socialism will have to be stamped out, then. You don't want politicians getting in the way of you spending the next hundred years growing trees on your plot of land and building your own awesome house.

No, seriously. What's it for? You can't starve to death. No one can kill you -- perhaps no one can even cause you physical pain. If someone locks you up in a titanium box, you can keep pounding at the door until you escape. When you don't have to worry about being injured or killed, you can struggle arbitrarily hard until the attacker just gives up, bored, and goes away. Thus slaves are freed.

People will not be able to steal your house since you can just keep fighting back until they get tired and leave, just wanting some peace. So, too, if the tax collector comes. No police can put you in jail, or if they did, keep you there. No more extortion of money from you because they cannot physically extend the claw of control over you anymore.

Yeah, I'll take that world over this one, thanks.

[slingblade]

Immortality? Nay.

I'd like a longer life, yes, but I'd like it to be much longer during my youth, and really short once I get to "old age." Let me be beautiful and full of energy for 500 or 1000 years, and then kill me off within one year with a fatal heart attack or stroke--something quick, and to me, painless.

[TimmyBerry]

I'd decline immortality, but settle for a prolonged life span (about a thousand,, maybe two thousand years..) and quasi-eternal youth for that time. =) What's the fun in living without staying active or living with muddled mind?

[Soapy Sam]

What's the fun in living without staying active or living with muddled mind?

Well, I dunno about that.

I quite enjoy being a silly slob- just not for ever.:)

[Beerina]

A few hundred years living off pizza, Big Macs, greasy cheeseburgers, and pave-a-poivre and playing all day, well, I wouldn't mind a few lifetimes of that.

Then we can talk about doing something worthwhile with our time.

Wouldn't it suck if it turns out this reality is one where you're supposed to play around and have a good time? If I were religious, upon death, the first thing I'd do is ask for my money back. So, too, if I were a political worry-wart of any persuasion.

[Almo]

I don't think humans are equipped to contemplate immortality. The mind just doesn't grasp infinity. I can perhaps imagine living for 500 years. 500 is a number I can grasp. But ten million years? ... It's just beyond comprehension.

[Dcdrac]

I don't think humans are equipped to contemplate immortality. The mind just doesn't grasp infinity. I can perhaps imagine living for 500 years. 500 is a number I can grasp. But ten million years? ... It's just beyond comprehension.

By the time you have watched Casablanca for the 10 millionth time or sat through The Sound of Music twice maybe immortality would lose its appeal.

[DSE]

I don't think humans are equipped to contemplate immortality. The mind just doesn't grasp infinity. I can perhaps imagine living for 500 years. 500 is a number I can grasp. But ten million years? ... It's just beyond comprehension.
Life is very different now than it was 500 years ago. My guess is that it will be even more different 500 years from now. And I'd be surprised if in 5000 years life is anything like it is now. I think by then it would be comprehensible.

[DSE]

By the time you have watched Casablanca for the 10 millionth time or sat through The Sound of Music twice maybe immortality would lose its appeal.
I don't understand the bored argument. I wish I could have been born 2000 years ago and seen everything that has happened since then. And things are only changing faster now. I don't think I'll get the chance, but I'd be first in line to volunteer for immortality.

It's hard for me to imagine not wanting immortality. It reminds me when mobile phones were new and I kept meeting people who would say, "you'll never catch me with one of those things, they're too invasive." And now all of those people have mobile phones and wouldn't know how to live without them. I think as soon as immortality is an option, dying will go out of fashion pretty quick.

[DSE]

If imortality became a reality, would Religion die out ?
It'd be hard to imagine that faith-based religion wouldn't die out -- at least after a while. Without the promise of rewards in the afterlife, I think faith-based religions would lose most of their pull.

I keep saying faith-based, because I'd like to see community belief systems that offer some of the benefits of religion rise in popularity without depending on faith or irrational thought.

[Godmode]

I think immortality would be more appealing if only I, or a limited amount of people had it. If EVERYONE had it, it WOULD get boring, there would be little social change, no new ideas, ect. But I'd love the opportunity to see how humanity will evolve (or not) and to explore everything there is to explore.

Probably, by the time you were done exploring all that could be explored, you'd have forgotten what happened in the beginning, so you could just start all over again. :)

[Carn]

So, what do you think? Immortality? Or death?

~~ Paul

Immortality,
It's more risk and more fun, i want to see an exploding sun.
Even if eternal madness is the price.

Carn

And there's always the possibility to kill some time by insulting every living being - in alphabetical order.

[Megalodon]

Immortality would only be boring due to lack of imagination.

There are 191 countries in the world (I'm not counting the Vatican). If you live 10 years in each capital, and then move on to the next, you will occupy two millenia.

You can then start over, and things will definetly not be the same.

Imagine being able to master all the professions you want, from carpentry to physics. All the knowledge you can achieve, and forget, and re-learn.

And if you are really imortal (in the "the universe might die but I don't give a damn" style), then you'll go insane, and live inside your own mind. You'll be Iachus' god :)

[sphenisc]

Immortality,
It's more risk and more fun, i want to see an exploding sun.
Even if eternal madness is the price.

Carn

And there's always the possibility to kill some time by insulting every living being - in alphabetical order.

Carn, you're an idiot. Now who's next. :)

[DSE]

I think immortality would be more appealing if only I, or a limited amount of people had it. If EVERYONE had it, it WOULD get boring, there would be little social change, no new ideas, ect. But I'd love the opportunity to see how humanity will evolve (or not) and to explore everything there is to explore.

Probably, by the time you were done exploring all that could be explored, you'd have forgotten what happened in the beginning, so you could just start all over again. :)
Well, of course, everything would change a bit when we all become robots... that'd liven things up for a bit...

[DSE]

Immortality would only be boring due to lack of imagination.

There are 191 countries in the world (I'm not counting the Vatican). If you live 10 years in each capital, and then move on to the next, you will occupy two millenia.

You can then start over, and things will definetly not be the same.

Imagine being able to master all the professions you want, from carpentry to physics. All the knowledge you can achieve, and forget, and re-learn.
I'm with Megalodon

[Soapy Sam]

Pah! When you've done this fifty million times, it will all get a little samey.
I agree there's a failure of imagination here.
How about fifty billion times?
Fifty trillion?
How high is your boredom threshold?
Im-mortality. You can't die. Even if you want to . Think about it. No matter how much pain you are in, how dreadful existence becomes, there is no escape, ever.

[DSE]

Pah! When you've done this fifty million times, it will all get a little samey.
I agree there's a failure of imagination here.
How about fifty billion times?
Fifty trillion?
How high is your boredom threshold?
Im-mortality. You can't die. Even if you want to . Think about it. No matter how much pain you are in, how dreadful existence becomes, there is no escape, ever.
I've been using immortal in the sense of never having to die. The choice would still be there. But, I should have made that clearer. Regardless, it's hard for me to imagine that human existence would be anything like it is now in 50,000 years. Even 5,000 years. I find it hard to believe that we would still have all the hardships (pain, hunger, exhaustion, etc...) that we have today. Science is moving at a very fast rate and 50,000 years is a very long time. I guess, I see immortality as a given in that world. And I think we (although anyone alive today) will eventually get there. I just will I was born 200 years later.

[Soapy Sam]

Paul made it clear near the start of the thread that what's on offer is immortality with no get out option.
It's Paul's thread, so that's what I'm going by.
I note that your assumption that everything in the future will be great is shared by most of those who are happy with the idea of immortality.
Clearly, I share neither the assumption nor the happiness. (I'm a True Scotsman.) I just think nobody on the pro side appears to have a serious grasp of how long "forever" actually is.
Still- the question is fantasy, so it's ok to have fun with the idea.

[DSE]

Paul made it clear near the start of the thread that what's on offer is immortality with no get out option.
It's Paul's thread, so that's what I'm going by.
Fair enough.

I note that your assumption that everything in the future will be great is shared by most of those who are happy with the idea of immortality.
Clearly, I share neither the assumption nor the happiness. (I'm a True Scotsman.) I just think nobody on the pro side appears to have a serious grasp of how long "forever" actually is.
Still- the question is fantasy, so it's ok to have fun with the idea
I'm not saying it will be universally happy, but I think the nature of our problems will be very different. Still, I think an opt-out immortality is a much more likely scenario. And I do want that type of immortality. But I'll shift discussion to one of the other threads.

[Roboramma]

Pah! When you've done this fifty million times, it will all get a little samey.
I agree there's a failure of imagination here.
How about fifty billion times?
Fifty trillion?
How high is your boredom threshold?
Im-mortality. You can't die. Even if you want to . Think about it. No matter how much pain you are in, how dreadful existence becomes, there is no escape, ever.

I'm with you on this, if you can't die, immortality is like hell. Or maybe hell with a nice lead up before it. Even if the good part lasts a billion years, you've still got an eternity of hell to deal with afterwards. No thanks.

There might be ways around this. Maybe you can clear out all your memories so that you never get bored of the repetition. Maybe as Paul suggested, you can spend eternity high. Okay.
Even then, though, if I were to end up spending eternity floating around in a void, giggling to myself... well, I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer death to that.

ETA that said, as most posters have pointed out, a few hundred or a few thousand years would probably be nice, even in this screwed up world.

[scimystic]

Hello Paul,

Please count me with yourself, in the dissenters' column. I can think of some possibilities that I'd find far more attractive than the Christian proposal (endless blissful contemplation of the Divine Presence) or the Muslim proposal (endless deflowering of virgins*) but I have a feeling that even the best would only be fun for a million years or so.

As to what the best would be, I'd go for stoppage of my ageing clock, and access to a 'ship' that could travel in all four dimensions of spacetime. There are a hell of a lot of people, scattered back over the past 3000 years, that I would really love to be able to talk to (Russell and Voltaire at the head the list). There would also be the great library at Alexandria, and plenty of time to learn Latin and Greek. Looking forward, I'd love to know whether - and if so, with what changes - we are going to make it through the 'bottleneck' that E. O. Wilson and Martin Rees have so clearly delineated in their latest books. And then there would be all of the bigger stuff outside our familiar little chunk of spacetime. Exactly when and how did life on earth start? Does it exist on other planets, and if so, in what forms? What would it be like to look back at Earth from our asteroid belt, or to slingshot around a black hole, or to ride the expanding shockwave of a supernova?

Like I said, give me a million years or so. But eventually I'd necessarily run out of storage and processing capacity. Even if these could be continuously upgraded the basic system architecture (in the absence of which I would no longer be 'me') would set limits. I'd have seen enough, and be ready for a rest.



* I'm sure that this question must have been raised before, but if so then I haven't seen it. What, exactly, is the Muslim deal for women? Do they get Chippendales?

[Carn]

Carn, you're an idiot. Now who's next. :)

But i'm a serious idiot, immortlity with a way out would be best, but immortality without escape i'd still prefer over dying in 100 years.

Carn

[Roboramma]

But i'm a serious idiot, immortlity with a way out would be best, but immortality without escape i'd still prefer over dying in 100 years.

Carn

Even if it included a trillion (or a limitless number of) years in the abyss of space with literally nothing to do?
That seems to be paul's question.

[Carn]

Even if it included a trillion (or a limitless number of) years in the abyss of space with literally nothing to do?


Yes.

Carn

[AWPrime]

heaven sounds like a boring place.

[SirPhilip]

So, what do you think? Immortality? Or death? Immortality. I've experienced enough throughout my life to not want to repeat it again, so I take responsibility for it by being mindful of all thoughts and actions, keeping vows, overcoming my base nature, as well as studying the lives and traditions of others in the past on this path. Most people I'd guess are of the latter persuasion, though, given the "You only live once" consumerist sensibility in the West.