Drugs & Sluts in the US

[Jon_in_london]

According to a new study, Porn, illegal labour and Marijuana now account for up to 10% of the economic might of the richest nation on earth.

http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?ao=13787

While the nation's largest legal cash crop, maize, produces about $19-billion in revenue, "plausible" estimates for the value of marijuana crops reach $25-billion.

The annual number of hardcore video rentals in the US has risen from 79 million in 1985 to 759 million in 2001. Hardcore pornography in the shape of videos, the internet, live sex acts and cable television is now estimated to generate around $10-billion, roughly the same amount as Hollywood's US box office receipts.

Americans spend more money at strip clubs than at Broadway, regional theatres and orchestra performances combined. The industry has mushroomed since the 70s, when a federal study found that it was worth little more than $10 million.



And here is a statement that I consider to be very wise:

"A society that can punish a marijuana offender more severely than a murderer is caught in the grip of a deep psychosis," he concludes. "Black markets will always be with us. But they will recede in importance when the public morality is consistent with our private one. The underground is a good measure of the progress and the health of nations. When much is wrong, much needs to be hidden."

[LeFevre]

"A society that can punish a marijuana offender more severely than a murderer is caught in the grip of a deep psychosis," he concludes. "Black markets will always be with us. But they will recede in importance when the public morality is consistent with our private one. The underground is a good measure of the progress and the health of nations. When much is wrong, much needs to be hidden."

Yes, very wise.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by LeFevre


Yes, very wise.

saracsm or not?

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


saracsm or not?

Considering LeFevre's avatar, I'd say not. How sterotypical is that of me?

Anyway:

"A society that can punish a marijuana offender more severely than a murderer is caught in the grip of a deep psychosis," he concludes. "Black markets will always be with us. But they will recede in importance when the public morality is consistent with our private one. The underground is a good measure of the progress and the health of nations. When much is wrong, much needs to be hidden."
is very wise, but fails to take into account that the public/private divide is a necessary strategy to protect the individual from state intervention. Until a form of state is achieved which individuals are willing to see themselves as inseparable from (yeah I know, that sounds kinda commie), then the public/private divide will be with us, along with all the consequences of that divide.

That's my one profound thought of the day, now I'm off to lie down in a darkened room... :)

[Libertarian]

Thoughts off the top of my head:

1. These three items equal 10% of the economy? Okay, what do they equal in other countries?

2. Jon, are you referencing this article as an indictment of U.S. society? I find it an indictment of U.S. laws. Legalize marijuana NOW.

3. Nudity, legally, is not the same as pornography in the U.S. (Is it anywhere?)

4. What do those three items have in common? Drugs and "pornography" are sins only to the puritans, who have outlawed them. Puritans insist on confusing morals and social morays. The cited workforce is illegal because a lot of immigration is illegal. Regardless of your position, this is an economic issue, not one of "vice."

5. Neither (drugs/nudity) should be underground, because neither should be illegal. And what do those two items have to do with an illegal workforce, other than being illegal? The U.S. is the freest (though not free enough) country on Earth, AND the richest (THAT IS NOT A COINCIDENCE!) People come here to earn money, legal or not, because of the opportunities.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Thoughts off the top of my head:

1. These three items equal 10% of the economy? Okay, what do they equal in other countries?

2. Jon, are you referencing this article as an indictment of U.S. society? I find it an indictment of U.S. laws. Legalize marijuana NOW.

Dont know about other countries, the article was US based. I do think this is an indictment of US society but I dont think these problems are exclusive to the US and are prolly as prevelant anywhere in the western world- although I think you guys prolly have the toughest MJ laws out there.

[The Fool]

look....Its obvious to me that drugs and pornography are closely linked....every friday night, at my place :D

actually I believe very strongly in the principle of "no victim, no crime" Drugs may in a lot of cases be self inflicted stupidity but, hey...thats a question of personal choice.....However (hypocricy alert!) I think there are victims in the pornography business. Vulnerable women are often taken advantage of by the use of money. A couple of high profile, high earning women are displayed as some sort of rationalisation. Most porn performers are simply vulnerable victims of a cynical industry [/rant].

Now for the controversial bit....some posters have proposed a "skepchicks" calender. Sorry girl 6 :) But I think this (pc alert) would demean the contribution of female sceptics on this board. It would be reinforcing the Patriarchal domination of women. You would simply be reinforcing the attitude of men who dismiss females as "chicks" (JK?)....let the flames begin?
Apologies if this seems to be derailing the thread Jon but I think its something relevant to this forum.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
According to a new study, Porn, illegal labour and Marijuana now account for up to 10% of the economic might of the richest nation on earth.



Sounds encouraging.. Maybe there is hope for us after all.. Now if we would just stop wasting money on crap like this..

http://www.cathedral.org/cathedral/news/photo/images/8sm.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At least we don't waste it on crap like this:
Welcome to the official web site of the British Monarchy (http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page1.asp)

http://www.royal.gov.uk/files/images/pop_viewlarge_crown.jpg

[Skeptic]

So porn and pot are together a $25-billion/year industry, and illegal immigration about the same. That's about $50 billion/year (tops). The "US economy" is harder to define, but retail sales alone are about $3.5 TRILLION. That will make the whole thing closer to 1.3% of the economy, at most.

By the way, it was the Europeans who kept taking the "moral high ground" on drugs, prostitution, and illegal immigrants, criticizing the US for having a "reactionary" and "primitive" system that forbids these things, as oppose to the "progressive" and "liberal" European system that legalizes them. In effect the advice from Europe to the US was "increase the amount of whores, drugs, and illegals you have", all those years. It is therefore the height of hypocracy for the Europeans to now gloat over the fact that there ARE many illegals, hookers, and drugs in the US.

But, then again, it's Europe we're talking about...

[Frostbite]

Not to mention 5 times Canada's crime rate per capita. My theory is, much like kids in kindergarten, the more you tighten the leach, the more curious and eventually dangerous they become. And the US culture in general, the capitalist rat race, I think it drives people crazy. You grow up in an environment that prohibits violence, drugs and sex; eventually you wanna check that out. Check out countries that have low crime rates, chances are, their judicial system isn't as unforgiving or strict as in the US. I say give people a little more freedom. For a generation or two it'll be total hell broken loose, but eventually people would get bored and develop interest for nobler things. Then again I don't know squat about psychology or anthropology...

[LeFevre]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

saracsm or not?
Billy's got it :p

Originally posted by BillyTK

Considering LeFevre's avatar, I'd say not. How sterotypical is that of me?

:D well it is true.

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by Libertarian
3. Nudity, legally, is not the same as pornography in the U.S. (Is it anywhere?)

4. What do those three items have in common? Drugs and "pornography" are sins only to the puritans, who have outlawed them. Puritans insist on confusing morals and social morays. The cited workforce is illegal because a lot of immigration is illegal. Regardless of your position, this is an economic issue, not one of "vice."You're not saying that pornography is illegal, are you?

[roger]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
You're not saying that pornography is illegal, are you?
The article called pornography "illicit", which I found odd.

from the article: Schlosser believes that the shadow economy will continue to thrive as long as marijuana and pornography remain illicit.

Well, I can't tell if the author of the article, or Schlosser is specifically calling pornography illicit.

[Tmy]

Why not toss gambling an smoking and drinking into the mix. Call it the VICE National Product.


Whats the big deal about porn anyway. Ever watch soap operas? Its like porn without the last scene.

[Frostbite]

I say they should remove fornicating scenes out of them Discovery Channel animal shows.

[LeFevre]

Originally posted by Frostbite
I say they should remove fornicating scenes out of them Discovery Channel animal shows.

but then what would Shemp do?

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by The Fool

Now for the controversial bit....some posters have proposed a "skepchicks" calender. Sorry girl 6 :) But I think this (pc alert) would demean the contribution of female sceptics on this board. It would be reinforcing the Patriarchal domination of women. You would simply be reinforcing the attitude of men who dismiss females as "chicks" (JK?)....let the flames begin?
Apologies if this seems to be derailing the thread Jon but I think its something relevant to this forum.

Now a nice calendar of Skeptic pets is always a thoughtful gift. [Use my avatar for the cover] :D

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Tmy
Why not toss gambling an smoking and drinking into the mix. Call it the VICE National Product.


Hmmmm... VNP? Ill have words with my mate Greenspan!

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Diogenes


Sounds encouraging.. Maybe there is hope for us after all.. Now if we would just stop wasting money on crap like this..

{edited pic of gothic cathedral}

At least we don't waste it on crap like this:

{edited pic of Crown, ref to British Monarchy}

[/IMG]

You Know, Diogenes, whenever I walk around a cathedral I always wonder at the immense amount of wealth that was ploughed into building them- taken in the context of how the common people of the time lived, its digusting. However, they are quite beautifull and I guess it was good excercise for our engineers and was something to lift a little bit of us from the slop into the excellent. I suppose a good analogy may be today's grossly expensive space missions when there are homeless people dying of hypothermia on our streets.

As to the Royal Family: I think they are a bunch of lazy german wasters who sponge off the British tax-payer and perform no usefull role whatsoever. And apart from costing us a literal fortune, they undermine democracy in britain.

If I had my way, thered be a very sharp axe waiting for the house of 'Windsors' (aka Sax-Coburg)

I didnt post the article to criticese America, more to criticise those laws in general and the way they criminalise society not just in the US but in most of the world.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


I didnt post the article to criticese America, more to criticise those laws in general and the way they criminalise society not just in the US but in most of the world.

Your point is well taken, and it would seem we agree on some these matters.

However, I wasn't able to infer this from your choice of thread title; "Drugs & Sluts in the US", and your original comments.

Keep em coming...:)

[Soubrette]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


You Know, Diogenes, whenever I walk around a cathedral I always wonder at the immense amount of wealth that was ploughed into building them- taken in the context of how the common people of the time lived, its digusting. However, they are quite beautifull and I guess it was good excercise for our engineers and was something to lift a little bit of us from the slop into the excellent. I suppose a good analogy may be today's grossly expensive space missions when there are homeless people dying of hypothermia on our streets.

...snipped

Actually those big municiple works are an excellent way of trickling down money to the poor artisan. Stone masons, builders, carpenters - all paid good dosh :)

It's one of the ways the government has to control the economy - want to inflate it? Pump money into nice expensive government projects.

Deflate it? pull the rug out from them.

The Japanese are having some problems at the moment though - they've tried all that stuff and they're still suffering from stagflation/deflation :(

Sou

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Diogenes


However, I wasn't able to infer this from your choice of thread title; "Drugs & Sluts in the US", and your original comments.

Keep em coming...:)

Yeh, I should be a tabloid journalist.

[jj]

Originally posted by Diogenes


http://www.cathedral.org/cathedral/news/photo/images/8sm.jpg




Hey, Scout, is that Peterborough?

I think I took almost the same shot from the herb garden at the side of Peterborough Cathedral about 15 years ago? Or is it Lincoln? My memory is hazy, but I don't remember any clear sight lines at Lincoln?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by jj


Hey, Scout, is that Peterborough?

I think I took almost the same shot from the herb garden at the side of Peterborough Cathedral about 15 years ago? Or is it Lincoln? My memory is hazy, but I don't remember any clear sight lines at Lincoln?

Washington National Cathedral.. Darth Vader and all...:D

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
According to a new study, Porn, illegal labour and Marijuana now account for up to 10% of the economic might of the richest nation on earth.

http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?ao=13787





And here is a statement that I consider to be very wise:


Not to mention the lives of decent people the laws have destroyed.
America loves its hypocrisy (see the Bill Bennett thread), and that is manipulated by all those who make big(ger) money because these things are illegal. That includes police, judges, prosecutors, and the purveyors. Everyones happy, except the victims of the law.
I'm now going to unsubscribe to this thread because I've heard it all from "the other side" already, and it strikes too close to home.
Thanks for picking up the item before I did.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by The Fool
However (hypocricy alert!) I think there are victims in the pornography business. Vulnerable women are often taken advantage of by the use of money. A couple of high profile, high earning women are displayed as some sort of rationalisation. Most porn performers are simply vulnerable victims of a cynical industry [/rant].

Is that any different from the film/TV or music industries, though? Or pretty much any other type of entertainment? Why single out porn particularly?

On the other hand, I think that the severest problems in the porn industry would be solved if it were considered more socially acceptable and entered into the mainstream. I especially wouldn't mind seeing a union for the actors -- I think that would eliminate a lot of the exploitation. It would also have the side effect of improving those god-awful production values!

Now for the controversial bit....some posters have proposed a "skepchicks" calender. Sorry girl 6 :) But I think this (pc alert) would demean the contribution of female sceptics on this board. It would be reinforcing the Patriarchal domination of women. You would simply be reinforcing the attitude of men who dismiss females as "chicks"

My attitude would be completely opposite. Something like that would be attacking the attitude that "chicks" are brainless. Society has created a largely artificial divide between intelligence and sexual attractiveness, and it's time we started tearing that down. My wife can be the spokesperson! :)

Jeremy

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
As to the Royal Family: I think they are a bunch of lazy german wasters who sponge off the British tax-payer and perform no usefull role whatsoever. And apart from costing us a literal fortune, they undermine democracy in britain.


Come on Jon, don't beat about the bush. Tell us how you feel!

[Troll]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
According to a new study, Porn, illegal labour and Marijuana now account for up to 10% of the economic might of the richest nation on earth.

http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?ao=13787





And here is a statement that I consider to be very wise:



Porn would be higher if it weren't for the net. Trust me, I know where my money would go.

[Libertarian]

Originally posted by Soubrette


Actually those big municiple works are an excellent way of trickling down money to the poor artisan. Stone masons, builders, carpenters - all paid good dosh :)

It's one of the ways the government has to control the economy - want to inflate it? Pump money into nice expensive government projects.

Deflate it? pull the rug out from them.

The Japanese are having some problems at the moment though - they've tried all that stuff and they're still suffering from stagflation/deflation :(

Sou

Oh puhleeeeze!!

Money gets spent only when the government does it? Let people in the private sector keep it and they'll just do something stupid, like burn it.

[RandFan]

It's simple, the war on drugs has failed. We can regulate and tax both drugs and prostitution if it is legal and empty the jails of a hell of allot of non-violent individuals.

To quote Paul Newman, "I am thoroughly square". I would find myself on the other side of this argument but for one reason, there is no objective reason to believe that criminalizing such vices effectively does anything.

[schplurg]

I agree, now get outta my way so I can reach my bong and see my "Illegal Immigrants Gone Wild!!!" video.

Our government tells us porn and drugs are "bad". Unless a huge pair of boobs in a tight shirt are being used to sell me Viagra on TV, or any of the other wonder-drugs that I'm told will cure everything. Then it's all just fine and dandy. I'm so lucky my gov is looking out for my best interests.

It's amazing how the most harmful drugs are sold legally over the counter. Don't get me started :mad:

[WMT1]

Originally posted by RandFan
It's simple, the war on drugs has failed. We can regulate and tax both drugs and prostitution if it is legal and empty the jails of a hell of allot of non-violent individuals.

To quote Paul Newman, "I am thoroughly square". I would find myself on the other side of this argument but for one reason, there is no objective reason to believe that criminalizing such vices effectively does anything.

Just to clarify here, are you saying you would support the war on drugs if it was effective?

[Soubrette]

Originally posted by Libertarian


Oh puhleeeeze!!

Money gets spent only when the government does it? Let people in the private sector keep it and they'll just do something stupid, like burn it.

I made no comment on the efficacy of the strategy compared to others.

And technically a cathedral would have been paid for by the crown or the church at the time - I just lumped it in as a municiple work as it was kind of the government of its day.

Whether you believe it to be the most effective way of achieving my two statements is nothing to do with what I said.

Sou

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Skeptic
So porn and pot are together a $25-billion/year industry, and illegal immigration about the same. That's about $50 billion/year (tops). The "US economy" is harder to define, but retail sales alone are about $3.5 TRILLION. That will make the whole thing closer to 1.3% of the economy, at most.

By the way, it was the Europeans who kept taking the "moral high ground" on drugs, prostitution, and illegal immigrants, criticizing the US for having a "reactionary" and "primitive" system that forbids these things, as oppose to the "progressive" and "liberal" European system that legalizes them. In effect the advice from Europe to the US was "increase the amount of whores, drugs, and illegals you have", all those years. It is therefore the height of hypocracy for the Europeans to now gloat over the fact that there ARE many illegals, hookers, and drugs in the US.

But, then again, it's Europe we're talking about...

Amen Skeptic! Your comments are spot on!

When I first started reading this thread I realized that the author of that article was making a math error worthy of Jedi Knight. Heck, even the US Federal Gov't budget is over $1.0 trillion now so his figures do not even provide 10% of that sum.

Ugh!

It would be nice if these guys would double-check their facts before hitting that 'Send' button.

[DialecticMaterialist]

Porn, illegal labour and Marijuana now account for up to 10%

Yes I can understand why you might not like illegal labor, people get hurt.

But what's wrong with porn? Seriously. Its simulated sex. It's just a harmless and in fact pleasure conductive expression of human desires. I think porn is a good thing and wish it was more prevelant. That's progress.

In fact I'll be proud of the US if what you're saying about porn is true.

As for pot, nothing wrong there either. Yes pot *can* be a bad thing if abused, but so can alchohol and cigarettes. And lets not forget the flip side, it can be a very nice thing when tried as well.