We still love Castro!

[aerocontrols]

Praise for the dictator (http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=2670302).

Does anyone know where I can read the actual document?

MattJ

[RandFan]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Praise for the dictator (http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=2670302).

Does anyone know where I can read the actual document?

MattJ Through the looking glass?

President Fidel Castro's government has come under unprecedented international criticism from friends and foes after sentencing 75 dissidents to long prison terms last month, and executing three men who hijacked a ferry in a failed bid to reach the United States. Capital punishment in the United States, wrong.

Jailing political prisoners, indifferent.

[Tony]

Useful idiots. If danny glover and Harry bellefonte like cuba so much more than america, why dont they live there. Casto might make glover vice dictator.

[corplinx]

Once again reuters has a misleading article title. It clearly says "Intellectuals Launch Campaign to Defend Cuba " yet it mentions Danny Glover and Harry Belafonte. hardly intellectuals.

[Q-Source]

Yesterday (May 1st) about a million Cubans got together in La Plaza de la Revolution to celebrate an official day.

http://www.granma.cu/espanol/mayo03/may1/plazarev.jpg

How can anyone explain such a massive support to Fidel's regime?

This is the content of the letter that many intellectuals signed. It is a call for the USA to respect sovereignty of people to decide what government they want to have!.



The hounding of Cuba could serve as the pretext for an aggression

THE invasion of Iraq has resulted in a breakdown of the international order. One single power is currently offending the norms of understanding among peoples. That power invoked a series of non-verified reasons to justify its interference, provoked the mass loss of human lives and tolerated the devastation of one of humanity’s cultural heritages.

We only possess our moral authority and from that position are calling on the conscience of the world to avert a new outrage of the principles that govern us. Today there is a heavy campaign against a Latin American nation. The hounding to which Cuba is being subjected could be the pretext for an invasion. As opposed to this we put forward the universal principles of national sovereignty, respect for territorial integrity and the right to self-determination, all indispensable for the just coexistence of nations.

Mexico, April 2003
Granma International (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/mayo03/may1/cuba.html)


This document was signed by FOUR Nobel prizes:

Rigoberta Menchú (Peace price)
Nadine Gordimer
Adolfo Pérez Esquivel
Gabriel García Márquez

and about a hundred more intellectuals.

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Q-Source
Yesterday (May 1st) about a million Cubans got together in La Plaza de la Revolution to celebrate an official day.

This is the content of the letter that many intellectuals signed. It is a call for the USA to respect sovereignty of people to decide what government they want to have!.


Thanks for the content, but the link doesn't work for me.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Q-Source
How can anyone explain such a massive support to Fidel's regime?


Its easy. You see, if you oppose Castro you might wind up beaten, tortured, and killed on his whim. So yes, its a good idea to show up at the rally.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Q-Source

Rigoberta Menchú (Peace price)
Nadine Gordimer
Adolfo Pérez Esquivel
Gabriel García Márquez



Arafat didnt sign it? He's another nobel winner. You know if you win the nobel that means your opinion on things matter more.

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


Thanks for the content, but the link doesn't work for me.

This is the text version. You have to go down to the middle. After Fidel's speech.

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/text.html

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by corplinx


Its easy. You see, if you oppose Castro you might wind up beaten, tortured, and killed on his whim. So yes, its a good idea to show up at the rally.


Just answer the damn question. How could he force a million CUBANS to assist to the meeting????


And what about the intellectuals?

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by corplinx


Arafat didnt sign it? He's another nobel winner. You know if you win the nobel that means your opinion on things matter more.

Of course, Gabriel Garcia Marquez's opinion matters MORE than yours :rolleyes:

This is the best that you can do to refute the fact that many people around the world consider the USA's foreign policy as an attack to the most basic rights of Nations??

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Q-Source



Just answer the damn question.

Alas, I cannot give you an answer that you will accept. There are two answers. One is that Castro is loved. The other is that Castro is feared. Recently while the world was watching iraq fall, Castro went on a good old fashioned stalinesque dissident round-up. Evidence suggests they attend out of fear. However, I'm not sure you will accept any answer other than love.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Q-Source


Of course, Gabriel Garcia Marquez's opinion matters MORE than yours :rolleyes:

This is the best that you can do to refute the fact that many people around the world consider the USA's foreign policy as an attack to the most basic rights of Nations??

I would counter that if your best arguement is "a bunch of smart people think its a good idea" then you need to reassess your reasoning. How many tens of millions people died in this century at the hands of their own goverment because of an intellectual whimsy known as marxism?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Q-Source



This is the best that you can do to refute the fact that many people around the world consider the USA's foreign policy as an attack to the most basic rights of Nations??

What rights are those? Rights dont exists if those countries lack the means to defend them.

[Tmy]

There are no bad dictatorships, just bad dictators.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Q-Source
This is the best that you can do to refute the fact that many people around the world consider the USA's foreign policy as an attack to the most basic rights of Nations??

As were the actions of the British in effectively ending the slave trade by cannonfire. I believe a great many nations (including my own) made just the argument you do.

MattJ

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by corplinx


Alas, I cannot give you an answer that you will accept. There are two answers. One is that Castro is loved. The other is that Castro is feared. Recently while the world was watching iraq fall, Castro went on a good old fashioned stalinesque dissident round-up. Evidence suggests they attend out of fear. However, I'm not sure you will accept any answer other than love.

I accept answers supported by evidence.

Let me tell you that this is not the first "1st of May" celebration that they have in Cuba. It has always been the same, every year, for 40 years...

The truth is that most of the Cuban population support a Socialist government because they got achievements that under Capitalism they could never get. Just look at the misery of many Centroamerican countries.

Maybe they are having a hard time now, but they still have DIGNITY.

I would counter that if your best arguement is "a bunch of smart people think its a good idea" then you need to reassess your reasoning. How many tens of millions people died in this century at the hands of their own goverment because of an intellectual whimsy known as marxism?


I am just talking about CUBA. But how many millions have died because of comunism in Cuba? I would say that never a million, not even a thousand.

Q-S

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Tony


What rights are those? Rights dont exists if those countries lack the means to defend them.


"...the universal principles of national sovereignty, respect for territorial integrity and the right to self-determination..."

[Tony]

Originally posted by Q-Source



Maybe they are having a hard time now, but they still DIGNITY.




You call living under the boot and being subject the whims of a tyrannical dictator dignity?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Q-Source



"...the universal principles of national sovereignty, respect for territorial integrity and the right to self-determination..."

<cough>********<cough>


Anything else that has any relevance in reality?

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Tony


<cough>********<cough>

Anything else that has any relevance in reality?

If that is ******** for you, then you cannot understand what DIGNITY is.

Go back to your video games, it is all it matters in your small-world dream. I am not wasting my time with you.

[Tmy]

Does anyone really care if Cuba is communist? It seems to be an ego thing.

As for the Cuban people, again I really dont care. Its not like Castro is culling minority groups. How great was their quality of life before Castro. Sure itd be nice if they were a democracy, but its not worth a military responce.

If we were so concearned about the Cuban people we'd lift that useless embargo.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Q-Source


If that is ******** for you, then you cannot understand what DIGNITY is.



Dignity, like being the subject to the whims of one man? Yeah thats dignity. Ill remember that when you get raped.


Go back to your video games, it is all it matters in your small-world dream. I am not wasting my time with you.

Small world dream? Like your little island utopia?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Q-Source


The truth is that most of the Cuban population support a Socialist government because they got achievements that under Capitalism they could never get. Just look at the misery of many Centroamerican countries.


Look at majesty of Grand Cayman. Just a hop skip and a jump from Cuba. No natural resources, expensive to get goods into, expensive to export from.

I think your example of central american countries (some who have been torn by civil wars, corrupt governments, and insurgencies) is a bit myopic.

[Tmy]

So Cuba should become a corprate tax haven.

How many people live in Grand Caymon? 6?

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by Q-Source



Just answer the damn question. How could he force a million CUBANS to assist to the meeting????


And what about the intellectuals?
Cuba is jail. That's why so many risk their lives to escape. When the warden calls for a meeting everyone goes.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Supercharts

Cuba is jail. That's why so many risk their lives to escape. When the warden calls for a meeting everyone goes.

Excellent point, Supercharts.

How about this as a principle of DIGNITY?

Countries that refuse to allow their citizens the right to leave are tyrannies.

MattJ

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Q-Source


If that is ******** for you, then you cannot understand what DIGNITY is.


Q-source:

Why is it a crime to leave Cuba?

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Supercharts

Cuba is jail. That's why so many risk their lives to escape. When the warden calls for a meeting everyone goes.

Yeah, and Mexico is also a jail. Have you ever heard about the thousand of men and women who escape from Mexico and risk their lives every year???? Maybe you can recognise them if I say that you people call them "illegal immigrants".

[headscratcher4]

Fidel is great...he is a friend of mine...

and, let me, speaking for my avatar, say that it is easy to get hundreds of thousands of people into a stadium to praise/honor me and my revolution. I do it all the time. Try not going (we too, use neighborhood "committees" so, anyone wanting to stay behind on rally day, well, they might not have a job next week, but, hey, that's the price you pay in a free society). I note my other friend, Saddam, could also get a lot of people to rallies, and it wasn't just 'cause he's a big, teddy-bear of a guy with a great smile! (Fidel like him too, sent him lots of cigars!).

So, here in the worker's paradise, we say "Viva Fidel"!

BTW -- no one ever dies in North Korea (well, maybe only in the thousands, but that can only matter to those thousands, and, of course, the poor representatives of the people who those annoying thousands forced to kill them), and there is no political opposition...Evry one loves me! It is the law. Yippie!

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by aerocontrols

Why is it a crime to leave Cuba?

Is it?

Every single Cuban can leave the country if they want whenever they want!

The problem is not to get a permission from the Cuban Government, the problem is from other countries (including the USA) who make it impossible for any Cuban to get a f*cking visa.

I tried for almost TWO years to get a stupid permission from the Mexican government to invite my Cuban friend. Finally, we both managed to get the permission and the visa for my friend.

The restrictions are impossed outside Cuba.

Q

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by Q-Source


Yeah, and Mexico is also a jail. Have you ever heard about the thousand of men and women who escape from Mexico and risk their lives every year???? Maybe you can recognise them if I say that you people call them "illegal immigrants".

Yes, America treats mexican workers and immigrants horribly. I note, however, that they are not sneaking into the Cuban worker's paradise where they can assure their "dignity", they seem to be escaping to rotten capitalist countries ..Hmmmm...

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Q-Source


Yeah, and Mexico is also a jail. Have you ever heard about the thousand of men and women who escape from Mexico and risk their lives every year???? Maybe you can recognise them if I say that you people call them "illegal immigrants".

It's not a crime for them to leave. It's a crime for them to enter another country illegally. Surely you grasp the difference between Tijuana and East Berlin?

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


Yes, America treats mexican workers and immigrants horribly. I note, however, that they are not sneaking into the Cuban worker's paradise where they can assure their "dignity", they seem to be escaping to rotten capitalist countries ..Hmmmm...

Head,

If you prefer to close your eyes as a healthy exercise, then good for you. :rolleyes:

IT IS NOT A CRIME TO LEAVE CUBA, ANYONE CAN DO IT.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Q-Source
Just answer the damn question. How could he force a million CUBANS to assist to the meeting???? Saddam got 100% of the vote and people would fill the streets and fall at their feet to worship him.

Look, if you are told to go somewhere you do it. Those that don't disapear. Why would anyone not go in light of the consequences?

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Jocko


It's not a crime for them to leave. It's a crime for them to enter another country illegally. Surely you grasp the difference between Tijuana and East Berlin?

It is not a crime for Cubans to leave their country. Why the USA puts so many restrictions to give visas to people who apply in Cuba?.

Did you know that they only give a very limited number of visas every year?. Why other countries put so many restrictions to give them visas when they apply at their Embassies (including Mexico)?

This is something that you don't know and that's why you and many others think that people live in a jail. Well, that is a myth.

Q

[DaChew]

But how many millions have died because of comunism in Cuba? I would say that never a million, not even a thousand.

This will be excellent news for the folks who put this website together. Why don't you drop them an email and explain how wrong they are?

http://www.aguadadepasajeros.bravepages.com/english/welcome.htm

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Q-Source
The truth is that most of the Cuban population support a Socialist government because they got achievements that under Capitalism they could never get. Just look at the misery of many Centroamerican countries.

Maybe they are having a hard time now, but they still have DIGNITY. Hmmmm....

Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/04/hcirtestimony041603.htm)

Human Rights Watch has monitored human rights conditions in Cuba for more than fifteen years. Although severe restrictions on basic civil and political rights have been a constant in Cuba during this period, the current crackdown, both in its scale and in its intensity, far surpasses the violations we have documented in the past.

Over the past month, the Cuban government has carried out a full-scale offensive against nonviolent dissidents, independent journalists, human rights advocates, independent librarians and others brave enough to challenge the government's monopoly on truth. By its sweeping nature, the crackdown seems intended not only to repress dissident voices, but to deny the very possibility of an independent civil society.

But while the current wave of repression is extraordinary for its scope and intensity, there is nothing unusual, by Cuban standards, about the means by which it has been imposed. The denial of basic civil and political rights is inscribed in Cuban law. The country's domestic legislation tightly restricts the rights to free speech, association, assembly and the press; its courts lack independence and impartiality; and its criminal procedures violate defendants' rights to due process of law. I don't know about you but that is not my idea of dignity.

[Tmy]

Is there still a legit reason for the embargo. I think its been in place long enough. Its not working.

[headscratcher4]

IT IS NOT A CRIME TO LEAVE CUBA, ANYONE CAN DO IT.

Closing ones eyes...an interesting point you raise.

I am including below various links to Human Rights Watch --- BTW, no friend to US or US policies --
The [Cuban] government continued to prosecute people for "illegal exit" if they attempted to leave the island without first obtaining official permission to do so. Such permission was sometimes denied arbitrarily, or made contingent on the purchase of an expensive exit permit. In June, Pedro Riera Escalante, a former Cuban consul and intelligence officer in Mexico City, was sentenced by a military court to six years in prison for leaving Cuba illegally, using false documents, and bribing officials to allow his departure. Riera Escalante had broken with his government and sought political asylum in Mexico, but he was forcibly deported by the Mexican authorities in October.

THis is a portion of the general introduction to Cuba and its human rights policies:


The Cuban government's intolerance of democracy and free expression remained unique in the region. A one-party state, Cuba restricted nearly all avenues of political dissent. Although dissidents occasionally faced criminal prosecution, the government relied more frequently on short-term detentions, house arrest, travel restrictions, threats, surveillance, politically-motivated dismissals from employment, and other forms of harassment.

Cuba's restrictions on human rights were undergirded by the country's legal and institutional structure. The rights to freedom of expression, association, assembly, movement, and of the press were strictly limited under Cuban law. By criminalizing enemy propaganda, the spreading of "unauthorized news," and insult to patriotic symbols, the government curbed freedom of speech under the guise of protecting state security. The authorities also imprisoned or ordered the surveillance of individuals who had committed no illegal act, relying upon laws penalizing "dangerousness" (estado peligroso) and allowing for "official warning" (advertencia oficial). The government-controlled courts undermined the right to fair trial by restricting the right to a defense, and frequently failed to observe the few due process rights available to defendants under domestic law


These are other links:


http://www.hrw.org/wr2k2/americas5.html

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/04/cuba040703.htm

http://hrw.org/press/2003/04/cuba040303.htm

http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/cuba0425.htm

http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/cuba0425-ltr.htm


Fortunately, they have their dignity....as you say:rolleyes:

[Tmy]

"But while the current wave of repression is extraordinary for its scope and intensity, there is nothing unusual, by Cuban standards, about the means by which it has been imposed. The denial of basic civil and political rights is inscribed in Cuban law. The country's domestic legislation tightly restricts the rights to free speech, association, assembly and the press; its courts lack independence and impartiality; and its criminal procedures violate defendants' rights to due process of law. "


Its OK! They were "Enemy Combatants" of Cuba.

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by DaChew


This will be excellent news for the folks who put this website together. Why don't you drop them an email and explain how wrong they are?

http://www.aguadadepasajeros.bravepages.com/english/welcome.htm

This is ridiculous... :rolleyes:

Did you even read the links? did you read the reasons why these people died?. I have read many similar stories about the USA killing people who hijack militar boats? :rolleyes:

Q

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Q-Source

I have read many similar stories about the USA killing people who hijack militar boats?

I want to read those stories. Where did you see them?

[headscratcher4]

By the way, I oppose US policies toward Cuba and especially the embargo...why? Because they are the only things keeping Castro in power.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Tmy
So Cuba should become a corprate tax haven.

How many people live in Grand Caymon? 6?


You thoroughly misunderstand grand cayman.

[Q-Source]

Head and RandFan,

54 member nations of the United Nations and I have a different opinion about Human Rights in Cuba.

Cuba reelected by acclamation as member of the Human Rights Commission (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/abril03/mier30/17reelec.html)

Q

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by Q-Source


This is ridiculous... :rolleyes:

Did you even read the links? did you read the reasons why these people died?. I have read many similar stories about the USA killing people who hijack militar boats? :rolleyes:

Q

As a lawyer, I can't remember -- outside of possibly in WWII -- the last time the US executed someone for "hijacking"...not saying it hasn't happened, but I sure can't think of any. I'd be facinated to know what case(s) you are referring to...especially as I am a death penalty opponent...I'd like to use those cases to demonstrate to my friends who support the death penalty that when we impose it, we are acting like a repressive government, say Cuba...

Further, if someone outside of war time was "condemned" to death, my bet is that -- unlike the three day period of secret trials and hearings in Cuba, that they had YEARS of appeals. Hijacking is a federal crime, my recollection is that the federal death penalty was only expanded beyond "treason" within the last ten years or so (in fact, check me if I am wrong, someone, but wasn't McVeigh one of the first to suffer the federal death penalty in recent memory?).

My recollection is that, on average, a federal death penalty conviction takes 14 years to fully appeal. IF there is a case out there you can actually site, I'll bet the defendant is still living and appealing away...unlike the dearly departed in Havana.

Anyway, I look froward to being corrected here -- I but I would bet dimes to dollars that there's been no federal execution for "hijacking" in the last thirty years.

[DaChew]

did you read the reasons why these people died?

Most of them appear to have been lined up and shot in mass executions. I'm sorry, do these not count as communist murders? Maybe you should define what you would consider to be a murder that communism in Cuba would be responsible for. I guess all those Jews that Hitler had lined up and shot wouldn't count either huh?

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by Q-Source
Head and RandFan,

54 member nations of the United Nations and I have a different opinion about Human Rights in Cuba.

Cuba reelected by acclamation as member of the Human Rights Commission (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/abril03/mier30/17reelec.html)

Q

Well, that confirms it, there are no human rights abuses in Cuba. IT is a workers paradise...I mean if you and the governments of Lybia can agree that there are no abuses, than, gosh, it must be so...forgive me for my ignorance.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Q-Source
Head and RandFan,

54 member nations of the United Nations and I have a different opinion about Human Rights in Cuba.

Cuba reelected by acclamation as member of the Human Rights Commission (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/abril03/mier30/17reelec.html)

Q So you dismiss the propaganda of the right wing organization Human Rights Watch?

And the 54 members are free from political motivation that Human Rights Watch suffers, is that right?

Are you really serious? You would use this example over the word of HRW?

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


As a lawyer, I can't remember -- outside of possibly in WWII -- the last time the US executed someone for "hijacking"...not saying it hasn't happened, but I sure can't think of any. I'd be facinated to know what case(s) you are referring to...especially as I am a death penalty opponent...I'd like to use those cases to demonstrate to my friends who support the death penalty that when we impose it, we are acting like a repressive government, say Cuba...



Did I say that they were formally executed?

Did you bother to read the links that the other guy provided?

When people in Cuba hijack a militar vehicle, it is a criminal offense that is considered as a threatening action against the Nation and society.
The same in the USA. I remember in San Diego, around 1997, a guy took a militar tank and started crashing cars in the streets. He was killed immediately because he was a danger for everybody.

The same happened in a specific case mentioned in the web site provided, so I wonder why the creators of the web site don't mention that someone who hijacks a militar vehicle represents a danger not only for the government but for the rest of the people?.

Q

[NoZed Avenger]

headscratcher4 and Randfan:

You are my heroes.

NA

[Not taking anything away from the other contributors to the thread, but the factual smack-down applied here by the dynamic duo was brutally elegant]

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


Well, that confirms it, there are no human rights abuses in Cuba. IT is a workers paradise...I mean if you and the governments of Lybia can agree that there are no abuses, than, gosh, it must be so...forgive me for my ignorance.

Go and complain with the 54 member nations of the Human Rights Comission....

It is not my fault that other Nations around the world cannot play along with the USA's imperialism.

Sorry.

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by RandFan
So you dismiss the propaganda of the right wing organization Human Rights Watch?

And the 54 members are free from political motivation that Human Rights Watch suffers, is that right?

Are you really serious? You would use this example over the word of HRW?

So you dismiss the propaganda of the Human Rights Commission?

Yeah, I bet that Fidel Castro forced 54 members of other independent Nations to vote in his favour :rolleyes:

[headscratcher4]

Don't talk to me about "reading" links...you ignore anything that doesn't confirm your world view...

I have read many similar stories about the USA killing people who hijack militar boats?

But you are right...I went back and can't figure out what you are talking about...

First, you give no citations/links to your assertion...so, I can only assume that you are suggesting that a hijacker killed by police in the course of committing the crime is, in your mind, the same as an execution (though informal, as it were)? Possibly, not an impossible "spin". However, you still cite no case...who/when was a US military vehicle/boat etc. hijacked? I can't recall -- and you gave no links -- when someone was killed in the act...please "educate" me.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Q-Source


It is not my fault that other Nations around the world cannot play along with the USA's imperialism.


Do you even have the slightest notion of what imperialism is? Imperialism has become a buzzword for identifying people with no working knowledge of the British empire, the Roman empire, the Chinese spheres of influence, the French/Dutch expansions into Africa and the Americas.

What I don't get is why some leftists and foreign discontents continually besmirch the US on the grounds of imperialism. I guess the world can't stand the fact that we have guam and a few of the virgin islands. Fear the mighty empire! For the record, the french, dutch, and british have more caribbean islands in their empire (or commonwealths, whatever) than we do. Im sure worldwide their empires still far exceed America except in the size of their home countries.

In fact, the american "empire" is so negligible that i don't think it even registers an "empire".

If you want to rail against imperialism, go rail against the dutch, french, and english.

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
Don't talk to me about "reading" links...you ignore anything that doesn't confirm your world view...

But I READ the link that says that many people were murdered due to Communism!!!


First, you give no citations/links to your assertion...so, I can only assume that you are suggesting that a hijacker killed by police in the course of committing the crime is, in your mind, the same as an execution (though informal, as it were)? Possibly, not an impossible "spin". However, you still cite no case...who/when was a US military vehicle/boat etc. hijacked? I can't recall -- and you gave no links -- when someone was killed in the act...please "educate" me.

Strange that you don't recall....

O.K. I will educate you on Monday, because I have to leave now and have no access to internet until then.

Bye

Q-S

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Q-Source
This document was signed by FOUR Nobel prizes:

Rigoberta Menchú (Peace price)
Nadine Gordimer
Adolfo Pérez Esquivel
Gabriel García Márquez

and about a hundred more intellectuals.

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

Rigoberta Menchu, fraud (www.salon.com/col/horo/1999/01/nc_11horo2.html) and fake. (www.boundless.org/1999/departments/isms/a0000074.html)

A hundred intellectuals, you say? Big Deal! (www.academia.org/campus_reports/1999/january_1999_6.html)

"How it happened isn’t quite the "miracle" it seemed. More earthly forces were at work. Specifically, dishonesty and the gullibility of an intellectual world willing to buy into any story so long as it fit its ideological needs. In Rigoberta Menchú and the Story of All Poor Guatemalans, anthropologist David Stoll reveals this secular saint of the intellectual class to be a fraud, understating that "the nature of my findings is inopportune for many scholars."

I suppose it takes a fraud to know a fraud, which might explain Rigoberta's enthusiasm for Fidel.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Q-Source
So you dismiss the propaganda of the Human Rights Commission?

Yeah, I bet that Fidel Castro forced 54 members of other independent Nations to vote in his favour :rolleyes: Wooooshhh..... Right over your head. Sorry Q,

The 54 members have political agendas. There is no need to force any of them to support Cuba since voting for Cuba is self serving.

Human Rights Watch on the other hand is an organization whose singular goal is to document human rights abuses.

[Tony]

Question: Who is more like Hitler?

a)GWBush

b)Castro


How much do you want to bet this useful idiot q-source says Bush?

[RandFan]

CUBA: Fidel Castro (http://wais.stanford.edu/cuba_fidel91500.html)

"As former Cuban political prisoner Armando Valladares has pointed out, if we justify dictatorships because they build schools and hospitals, then Hitler, Stalin and Pinochet would all be justified." The article also refers to the "beating, torture, murder and exile of millions of opponents of Cuban communism." What is Armando Valladares bitching about? Doesn't he know how well he had it? Doesn't he know that Cuba is a member of the Human Rights Commission?

The nerve of some people.

[Tony]

Originally posted by RandFan
CUBA: Fidel Castro (http://wais.stanford.edu/cuba_fidel91500.html)

What is Armando Valladares bitching about? Doesn't he know how well he had it? Doesn't he know that Cuba is a member of the Human Rights Commission?

The nerve of some people.

I guess he didnt feel the "dignity" of living in a police state.

[Mike B.]

I don't think the presence of crowds demonstrates anything in a police state. I don't know if anyone remembers but the Soviets used to have those parades with thousands of people on May 1st carrying pictures of Brezhevev's ugly face on posters. :D
Ceausececu in Romania had that too, and suddenly when the people realized that the Soviets were no longer going to back his government, he was quickly overthrown.

Go figure.

Having said that I am sure there are many people who do like Castro in Cuba. I am also sure that they are proudly independent and wish to be from the US.

However, there is no excuse for him to crack down on those dissidents like he did.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Mike B.
I don't think the presence of crowds demonstrates anything in a police state. I don't know if anyone remembers but the Soviets used to have those parades with thousands of people on May 1st carrying pictures of Brezhevev's ugly face on posters. :D
Ceausececu in Romania had that too, and suddenly when the people realized that the Soviets were no longer going to back his government, he was quickly overthrown. Talk about an understatement.

On 22 December 1989, Romania's communist leader Nicolae Ceausescu was overthrown in a violent revolution and fled from the capital, Bucharest. Three days later, he and his wife Elena were executed by firing squad.

...

Anti-Ceausescu forces within the power elite made sure the couple was swiftly put to death. And when pictures showing their dead bodies, riddled with bullets, were broadcast, the street protests subsided.

[renata]

Originally posted by Q-Source


So you dismiss the propaganda of the Human Rights Commission?

Yeah, I bet that Fidel Castro forced 54 members of other independent Nations to vote in his favour :rolleyes:

There was an interesting report on the Human Rights Commission by the HRW recently. I posted excerpts in this thread
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17956

Some quotes from the sources in that thread.

Human Rights Watch called the slate "a 'Who's Who' of the worst human rights abusers."
...

"Anybody now feels they can be on the commission," said Weschler. "Governments compete to be on the commission in order to protect themselves and protect their peers.

...

Rights activists say the commission is increasingly reluctant to blame individual countries, in part because many developing nations oppose being singled out.

Countries whose rights records have often been brought into question, such as Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo (news - web sites), Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Zimbabwe, sit on the commission and activists say they have a common interest in preventing such probes.
...

A growing bloc of repressive governments – including Algeria, China, Cuba, Libya, Russia, Sudan, Syria and Zimbabwe – have become progressively more aggressive in blocking or obstructing resolutions critical of any specific country. The African group voted as a bloc against action on Zimbabwe and (with the exception of Uganda) against the resolution on Sudan.

[renata]

Originally posted by Q-Source



Just answer the damn question. How could he force a million CUBANS to assist to the meeting????


And what about the intellectuals?

Fear of repricussions, that is how. And I speak from personal experience. In USSR me and my family went to parades May 1, May 9 and Nov 7 like clockwork. And we weren't particularly fond of the regime, indeed we were quite damaged by it. However, people march in groups, and you had to check in. Me with my class, my parents with people from their work, etc. One could not skip a parade or a meeting and not expect some very unfortunate consequences. I suspect the situation is similar in Cuba, particularly after the recent dissident sweep.

[headscratcher4]

Strange that you don't recall....

Let me be clear...what I don't recall is a US military vehicle, boat, etc. being "hijacked" and the culprits being "killed" (executed) -- even allegedly extra-judicially -- as a result. I am not saying it didn't happen, or couldn't happen. I am saying I have no knowledge of this kind of incidence which you posited in responce, I believe to Dachew.

You made the assertion, all I want you to do is show me the facts. I am reasonably well read and follow the news. I have no knowlege of such an incident. Please educate me...I will be more than willing to aplogize if you can and I am wrong...though I'd like to know the circumstances.

BTW...you avoided the contention in the Human Rights Watch web that directly contradicts your assertion that there is no law against leaving Cuba. You may have better resources than I do, maybe you could site me to Cuban Civil or military code on this subject.

As to how much one should trust the laws of a avowed communist state -- i.e. that you might be right and that there is no formal law (just the ruin of your family that remains, loss of job, imprisonment, etc. for the stay behinds) -- I would point out that the Stalin Constitution of 1936 was one of the most liberal law codes ever promulgated...assured freedom of speech, religion, legal represntation, and on and on...and, he only murdered 30 of 40 million people...so, surely, we can trust Cuban "law" -- as it is created in an open and democratic process ...


And, once again, the UN human Rights Commission is currently chaired by that Just Democratic nation of Lybia. You can't possibly be arguing that Lybia has any credibility whatsoever when it comes to human rights...oh, wait, you are. I am sure they've only murdered thousands...

Finally, I am particularly interested in your statement above dismissing the evil of castro because, as you said, his system is supported by the masses and maybe only thousands suffered....is it about numbers? If a million suffered than he'd be evil (though, arguably, over a million have fled the regime?). Was Pinochet -- that US supported horror show in Chile ok because the regime only murdered a 5 to 10 thousand?

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


Let me be clear...what I don't recall is a US military vehicle, boat, etc. being "hijacked" and the culprits being "killed" (executed) -- even allegedly extra-judicially -- as a result. I am not saying it didn't happen, or couldn't happen. I am saying I have no knowledge of this kind of incidence which you posited in responce, I believe to Dachew.



Lets keep the claim clear, too -- "I have read many similar stories about the USA killing people who hijack militar boats? "

Q has seen many similar stories -- so it should be no trouble to point out, say, 3 of the many available.

The tank incident in San Diego, IIRC, was about 1995 -- an ex military guy stole a tank -- note: not a boat, a friggin' TANK -- and took to the city streets, crushing several cars. He ended up with a stuck track. The police rushed the tank while it was stuck and shot the man. [caveat: this is from memory and may contain inaccuracies]

There is a bit of a difference in the local police deciding that a mentally unbalanced guy crushing cars in a tank (and potentially armed) is an active danger when compared to people stealing a boat to get out of the country.

If the people went on a "boating rampage" and had to be stopped as potential dangers to the public, that is one thing. But after they are captured, to execute them? Why is the death penalty only wrong when the US does it to people convicted of multiple murders, but it seems to be perfectly ok when done for religious crimes or stealing a boat or writing an opposition newspaper?


NA

[shuize]

Your memory of the San Diego "tank incident" is accurate. There's a bit more to the story in that the tank's track got stuck when the unstable driver swerved from one side of the freeway, which the police had emptied, to try and cross over the concrete median into on coming traffic. Hundreds of commuters are no doubt alive today because the tank's track was temporarily lodged on top of the concrete median when the driver tried to jump the barrier. While the driver was quickly working to grind down the concrete and dislodge the tracks, police had just enough time to climb on top with bolt cutters and open the hatch. True or not, the police reportedly ordered the driver out and then shot him in the shoulder. Unfortunately for him (but not for rush hour traffic), the bullet is said to have ricocheted off his shoulder blade into his heart. There is video of the whole incident, including the police officers attempting CPR at the scene.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
The tank incident in San Diego, IIRC, was about 1995 -- an ex military guy stole a tank -- note: not a boat, a friggin' TANK -- and took to the city streets, crushing several cars. He ended up with a stuck track. The police rushed the tank while it was stuck and shot the man. [caveat: this is from memory and may contain inaccuracies]

There is a bit of a difference in the local police deciding that a mentally unbalanced guy crushing cars in a tank (and potentially armed) is an active danger when compared to people stealing a boat to get out of the country. The tank footage is shown several times a year on various cable channels as part of a number of different shows including "Most dangerous police chases". Let me concur with your memory of the events. The driver was obviously indifferent to human life and the police were entirely justified to view him as a "clear and present danger". The driver's actions left the police no choice but to take action to end his life.

How the example could be compared to the boat hijacking is beyond me. Unlike Cuba citizens of the United States are protected under the constitution from "cruel and unusual punishment". To qualify for capital punishment a perpetrator must take human life with pre-meditation and under special circumstances. There are I believe some exceptions including treason during war time and I remember the Rosenbergs but I'm not sure of the circumstances or why they qualified. In any event such cases are rare.

Bottom line, once a US citizen is apprehended a perpetrator is guaranteed due process and is protected from cruel and unusual punishment. The example given does not even come close to what happened in Cuba where there are no such protections. Whatever Castro says goes.

[headscratcher4]

Maybe Q is thinking of some other horrible incident...because this story -- which I now remember -- does little to bolster his assertion.

I think I didn't remember it because it was "handled" by local police and was a local incident...while, if caught, the perpetraitor might have been subject to federal charges (maybe even the death penalty [?] -- but I don't think so, unless he actually killed someone in the commission of the crime), this was a local law enforcement situation. Further, it was a death that occured in the commission of the crime...not all that different than killing someone in a bank-robbery get away.

As noted above, I am an opponent of the death penalty -- whether the Byzantine system we employ in this country, or the "people's" justice in Cuba. However, the differences between how the death penalty is employed is substantial. First, McVeigh was the quickest federal death penalty imposition I can recall...and, ultimately, he was not fighting it.

International death penalty celebs -- that the Europeans and probably Q himself are so exersized about (Mumia[?] comes to mind) are to this day, alive, receiving excellent representation and testing every aspect of the law from basic justice to pure procedure. Mumia, is a state crime, BTW, and he is accused (and convicted) of killing a police officer -- one has to assume that no matter what system you operate under, that is a pretty haneious crime.

As an aside, I wonder where the European protests are over how Cuba has handled these hijackers...I suppose because they have their dignity, it isn't so horrible to try them behind close doors, convict and execute them in three days.

The core of the issue, it seems to me, is that there is no check on cuba's courts...they do what the party wants them to do. THere is no transparency and consequently there can be no justice. The incident with the hijacker is instructive...hijacking is, of course, a horrible crime. One that every state in the world has laws and penalties against. Indeed, a hijacker in the US would be handled very severely. So, ultimately, it isn't that Cuba tried and convicted or even executed these men for hijacking.

It is that it is a sentence that comes out of a system that has no checks. When the government decides to crack down, the system follows accross the board. Yes, certainly, as we see in the US, when the Justice department sets marching orders, the machinery of the state tries to comply, but there are also and throughout the system, indipendent judges checking the government's position in open court. THere are appeals and all of it in the open...it is by no means perfect.

But, there is a sense that justice can prevail over politics. I venture to say that in a socialist command society, such as cuba, that is not the case. The party decides, the law conforms to the party, not the party to the law. That is the nature of "socialist" justice. All claims that it is supported by the people doesn't make it "just" it merely shows that the masses, lead by the people's vangaurd, can be manipulated just as they can in capitalist societies.

However, what is worse, is that it is manipulation by fear as much as by love of the revolution. IT would be stupid to deny that many in Cuba love their revolution. Indeed, as I have said before, in an open and free election where ideas compete, Castro might even win...we'll never know and he'll never test it. But, regardless of the level of support, it is a revolution that is sustained by committees that check the ideologicl purity of their neighbors, who deny employment to individuals and families who dissent, who imprision anyone who chooses to think differnetly than the party and who speaks out about it.

Where is the justice and dignity in that?

Ultimately, the difference between us, Q, is that I have very open eyes about all that is amiss with the US and its policies...indeed, we are likely in accordance on most of the sins of the US. However, you are so infatuated with Castro that you are blind to the dehumanizing effects of that regime, its basic injustice and how it ultimately strips the "dignity" of the Cuban people...because a people who are sheep -- whether sheep to the US. or sheep to Fidel -- are still sheep.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
International death penalty celebs -- that the Europeans and probably Q himself are so exersized about (Mumia[?] comes to mind) are to this day, alive, receiving excellent representation and testing every aspect of the law from basic justice to pure procedure. Mumia, is a state crime, BTW, and he is accused (and convicted) of killing a police officer -- one has to assume that no matter what system you operate under, that is a pretty haneious crime. It should be noted that Mumia Abu-Jamal's death sentence was overturned. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1718274.stm)

Which raises a question, do any of the death sentences in cuba get overturned? I don't think so but I await proof that they do.

[Q-Source]

RandFan,

Human Rights Watch on the other hand is an organization whose singular goal is to document human rights abuses.

Human Rights Watch is an organisation that has never get into Cuba. So, all their sayings about violation of human rights are pure speculation. They have no evidence to support such assertion. Whether or not the Cuban government is violating human rights is something that we cannot know until someone goes there to check it.




Renata,

Fear of repricussions, that is how. And I speak from personal experience. In USSR me and my family went to parades May 1, May 9 and Nov 7 like clockwork. And we weren't particularly fond of the regime, indeed we were quite damaged by it.

But then something happened and the regimen was changed with another. People decided (the majority I guess) that they wanted no more communism. I don’t see a massive discontent in Cuba. Ideologically, the socialist state has been capable of indoctrinating the population into believing that change from socialism to capitalism would be a disaster in economic and moral term. And let me make it clear that I do not endorse such doctrine, but this explains the current events now.


Q

[Q-Source]

headscratcher4,

You made the assertion, all I want you to do is show me the facts. I am reasonably well read and follow the news. I have no knowlege of such an incident.

Someone else already gave details about that incident in San Diego. But I think that you are missing my point. What I tried to say before (in reference to the link provided) is that some “murders due to communism” are not such. They were the result of pure criminal actions of people who broke the law, specifically people who hijacked military vehicles such as boats to run away. They were killed ipso facto, without a trial and then I said that these kinds of incidents have also happened in the USA, so I mentioned the case of that man who hijacked a military tank in San Diego (and YES, I mentioned a “Tank” not a boat from the beginning). I was not talking about the last execution; I was taking about one of the cases in this link (http://www.aguadadepasajeros.bravepages.com/english/welcome.htm).

BTW, I am completely against the way the Cuban Government handled this trial. This was an action of utterly despotism.


BTW...you avoided the contention in the Human Rights Watch web that directly contradicts your assertion that there is no law against leaving Cuba. You may have better resources than I do, maybe you could site me to Cuban Civil or military code on this subject.

How so?

I did not know that there is a “Law Against Leaving Cuba” :rolleyes: None of the assertions of Human Rights Watch can contradict the fact that people are FREE to leave Cuba whenever they want. This is not speculation, THIS IS A FACT!

I don’t have time to look for the Cuban Constitution in the net. You are claiming that it is a crime to leave the country, just show me a single article, law or code where it says so. Put up or shut up.

In my experience, some of my Cuban friends have left the country when they felt they wanted to leave. Not a single law prevented them from doing so. Some of them even were counter-revolutionary; they never went to the country side (which is compulsory) or attended official rallies. The difference between my friends and the people who hijack airplanes or boats is that my friends preferred to leave the country LEGALLY. Of course, this implies that they had someone outside Cuba who were capable of inviting them. But check this out: this “invitation requirement” is something that foreign countries establish. So, when you read in the newspaper that many heroic Cubans risk their lives in the sea, it is not because Fidel does not allow them to leave the country, it is because OTHER countries (such as the USA and Mexico) require a third party involved in the process of giving visas.

Let’s say that you live in Cuba and you want to travel to England. Ok. but the English Embassy won’t give you a visa unless an English native invites you, so you must find someone who can send you a notarial letter saying that he/she will be responsible for you while you stay in England. Here, the Cuban Government does not have a say… so who is morally responsible for those illegal migrants into the USA and other countries?

Head, if you have no idea how the legal system works in Cuba, please refrain from making any assertion regarding this. Human Rights Watch is not a reliable source to get this information; it has no take on this issue.



Ultimately, the difference between us, Q, is that I have very open eyes about all that is amiss with the US and its policies...indeed, we are likely in accordance on most of the sins of the US. However, you are so infatuated with Castro that you are blind to the dehumanizing effects of that regime, its basic injustice and how it ultimately strips the "dignity" of the Cuban people...because a people who are sheep -- whether sheep to the US. or sheep to Fidel -- are still sheep.

I have my eyes open too. But it seems that you prefer to condemn the Cuban Government in terms of its communist regime instead of seeing the big picture and recognise that you can find the exact same shortcomings in any other country, independently of their ideological status.

[renata]

Originally posted by Q-Source


But then something happened and the regimen was changed with another. People decided (the majority I guess) that they wanted no more communism. I don’t see a massive discontent in Cuba. Ideologically, the socialist state has been capable of indoctrinating the population into believing that change from socialism to capitalism would be a disaster in economic and moral term. And let me make it clear that I do not endorse such doctrine, but this explains the current events now.


Q

Actually, that is not quite what happened. People were as scared and cowed as ever. Gorbatchev came to power in 1985, and instituted several revolutionary policies. Same failed miserably ( prohibition) some suceeded beyong anyone's wildest dreams ( glasnost). It took 6 years for USSR to fall apart. I remember the first years people were terrified that this was just a thaw to root out dissidents who would be punished severely later. ( Kind of like Cuba's recent crackdown on the dissidents after a relative thaw) Indeed, when republics finally started to attempt to break away, the government sent in tanks. However, finally the country fell apart. There are many reasons for it, which I can not enumerate, but I can say the catalyst for change came from above. Indeed there have been many uprisings in USSR through its history, all of which have been very brutally suppressed. So will of the people, unfortunately does not mean much in this type of a regime, as long as government controls the military.

One improtant difference between the USSR and Cuba which may speak in Cuba's favor is that USSR played upon old ethnic tensions and rivalries. For example, the troops that were stationed in the Baltics were from Central Asia, and the troops that were stationed in Central Asia were from the Baltics. So when Riga was suppressed, troops were not shooting at their families, they were shooting at foreigners. And when there were demonstrations in Tbilisi, Latvian soldiers stationed there avenged cruel treatment of their families by even harsher tactics. And on and on it went. However, in Cuba, I imagine people will not be baited into similar behavior.