Psychics and Missing People

[Kelly]

That's odd, Luke, because I received the same email from someone I didn't know.

[Kelly]

I got a pretty good idea of what that means...

Sheesh, how inane can this get? No, the psychic can not "communicate properly with the family prior to any filming".

:hb:

There is no such thing as a psychic having proper communication with a family of a missing person, or at least not in my book. :mad:

No communication is the only proper communication.

[Stellafane]

The following comment contributes nothing to this thread, but writing it down seems to provide some sort of carthartic release for me:

I hate Carla Baron.

And she's just one psychic. I have no idea how you find the strength to deal with the lot of them. I couldn't, I don't have the guts. Hating one is draining enough.

[Kelly]

Luke, is Tammie the person who emailed this to you?

And to increase your disdain, Stellafane, CB was "helping" a family I knew and she dropped them like a hot potato when media ignored it. That's no surprise, of course.

[Luke T.]

Luke, is Tammie the person who emailed this to you?

Yip. Who is Tammie?

[Kelly]

Yip. Who is Tammie?

I don't know. I asked her if we had met somewhere on the 'Net, and she said:

"No Kelly we have not met. I read your blog and you had some guest entries regarding psychics and how they mislead. Court Tv's show Haunting Evidence showcases Tara (Wednesday 7/19) I was just trying to get the word out that the show may not be on the up and up. I find it sad.. that families are mislead with false hope and I am afraid that is what is happening with this family. Also, I hate the fact that people profit from someone's tragedy.
Thank you for your time and God bless you for all you do."

How did she get your email?

Nothing wrong with what she sent, but I was curious who she is, but more curious since she emailed you as well.

[Suzan]

I received an email today from someone I do not know, but who seems to know I have an interest in Carla Baron.

It appears there is strong evidence that Carla has contact with family members of missing people prior to the filming of her show "Haunting Evidence" which follows Carla as she supposedly begins looking into a missing person case.

Some hard evidence here: http://www.carlabaron.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1910#post1910

Regarding the disappearnce of Tara Grinsted:



I have not ever watched "Haunting Evidence" so I don't know if the show on Tara Grinsted claimed Carla had no prior contact with the family. According to the email I got today, they made such a claim in another show on someone else's disappearance.

Some more interesting bits, from the adminstrator of the Carla Baron fan site forum:

http://www.carlabaron.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1888#post1888



Apparently word is getting around, and the same administrator felt compelled to do some spin control: http://www.carlabaron.net/forum/showthread.php?t=525




Interesting wordplay.

I know for a fact that Carla "has and is" close with Anita Gattis (Tara's sister), Not only are they close so are some of the searchers that searched, friends of the family (residents of Ocilla) have been on Carla's message board for months and months back...In fact Carla gave what she calls a kind and gentle place for the family and friends and searchers to post (SAR)and Gave them their "own" personal thread on Carla's forum to discuss the case in detail. Here is the link(s).... http://www.carlabaron.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2449#post2449 and http://www.carlabaron.net/forum/showthread.php?t=435&page=2

If you are interested in Carla's history of so called "helping people" go here>> http://www.iigwest.com/carla_report.html

[The_Fire]

Been a while since I was in this thread.

Hows it going with psychicpredators.com? ;).

[Luke T.]

I don't know. I asked her if we had met somewhere on the 'Net, and she said:

I have asked her, too, but she has not responded.

How did she get your email?

I am wondering the same thing. She did not use the one you have, which is even more curious.

She used an email address I created specifically for an article I wrote for Skeptic Report a few years ago!

The blue fairies on the moon. :)


Nothing wrong with what she sent, but I was curious who she is, but more curious since she emailed you as well.

Nope. Nothing wrong with it.

[Stellafane]

...If you are interested in Carla's history of so called "helping people" go here>> http://www.iigwest.com/carla_report.html

Hi Suzan. I am familiar with this site. I also notice it's a bit out of date. For instance, the site still lists Philip and Sarah Gehring as missing. Their bodies were found late last year in Ohio -- despite Ms. Baron's "vision" of "clarity and force" that they were "near New Hampshire." Logical guess, but not even her staunchest apologists can claim she got this one right (unless you have an exceedingly broad definition of "near").

[Kelly]

Been a while since I was in this thread.

Hows it going with psychicpredators.com? ;).

Claus must have sent you. ;) I have not forgotten about it.

Hi Suzan. I am familiar with this site. I also notice it's a bit out of date. For instance, the site still lists Philip and Sarah Gehring as missing. Their bodies were found late last year in Ohio -- despite Ms. Baron's "vision" of "clarity and force" that they were "near New Hampshire." Logical guess, but not even her staunchest apologists can claim she got this one right (unless you have an exceedingly broad definition of "near").

I wonder if that group is still active. I have not seen anything new from them. This article was one of the first ones I recall ever seeing about the psychic issue. At that time, I'd never heard of CB. I do wish they'd update it, especially with this glaring error of hers.

[CptColumbo]

Kelly,

I was just watching a doc that included a profile of the Zach Ramsey case, and was at first shocked by the outcome of the investigation. I don't know how old a show this was, but what's the latest?

[Kelly]

Kelly,

I was just watching a doc that included a profile of the Zach Ramsey case, and was at first shocked by the outcome of the investigation. I don't know how old a show this was, but what's the latest?

Forgive me, Cpt, but I don't know who Zach Ramsey is. I did a search and found a baby with cancer and a kid who died of cancer, but I'm not familiar with either one. Can you shed some light on this one for me? Thanks.

[CptColumbo]

I believe it was one of the rocky mountain states (Idaho seems right). The thing I remember most about it was that the suspect the police arrested, a sex offender from Mass., was not charged due to the mother being uncooperative. He was convicted for other offences, involving pedophilia, with other children. The child has never been found. I'm sorry I don't remember more, I was working on the computer when it was on and didn't pay attention right away.

[Kelly]

I believe it was one of the rocky mountain states (Idaho seems right). The thing I remember most about it was that the suspect the police arrested, a sex offender from Mass., was not charged due to the mother being uncooperative. He was convicted for other offences, involving pedophilia, with other children. The child has never been found. I'm sorry I don't remember more, I was working on the computer when it was on and didn't pay attention right away.

This must be who you are talking about: Zachary Ramsay (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/ramsay_zachary.html)

The man involved sounds so evil. Who knows how many kids he killed or hurt in some way.

With 105,000+ missing persons' cases open in the US at any given time, there are so many I have never heard of. I know quite a few, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the overall number. Zach's is one I had not run across yet.

[CptColumbo]

This must be who you are talking about: Zachary Ramsay (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/ramsay_zachary.html)

The man involved sounds so evil. Who knows how many kids he killed or hurt in some way.

With 105,000+ missing persons' cases open in the US at any given time, there are so many I have never heard of. I know quite a few, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the overall number. Zach's is one I had not run across yet.
The suspect sounded like the such an evil scum bag, I was relieved to hear he was at least off the street (except it meant he commited another sex crime against a child).

BTW did you see the part about the psychic:

His mother insists that her psychic and others believe her son is alive and she hopes his case will be reopened by law enforcement.
I hope that's not why she isn't cooperating with the authorities.

[Kelly]

The suspect sounded like the such an evil scum bag, I was relieved to hear he was at least off the street (except it meant he commited another sex crime against a child).

BTW did you see the part about the psychic:


I hope that's not why she isn't cooperating with the authorities.

What a strange case! I read further and as it states here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Bar-Jonah), authorities dropped the murder charges because the mother said she thought the boy was alive. Now, I may not know much about the law, but you'd think if they have the evidence, they would continue on with the prosection, regardless of the mother's and the psychic's feelings or delusions.

[CptColumbo]

What a strange case! I read further and as it states here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Bar-Jonah), authorities dropped the murder charges because the mother said she thought the boy was alive. Now, I may not know much about the law, but you'd think if they have the evidence, they would continue on with the prosection, regardless of the mother's and the psychic's feelings or delusions.
That's why I was curious about it, because it seemed so unusual.

[YoPopa]

I'm adding this case to my list of examples to pull out when a believer asks "What harm can it do to listen to the psychic."

How about a reply like this?:

"What if a multiple offense sexual predator commits murder and cannibalism but the mother won't testify? She is supported in her delusional belief that the kid is still alive by her psychic predator."

[Kelly]

I'm adding this case to my list of examples to pull out when a believer asks "What harm can it do to listen to the psychic."

How about a reply like this?:

"What if a multiple offense sexual predator commits murder and cannibalism but the mother won't testify? She is supported in her delusional belief that the kid is still alive by her psychic predator."

Bingo.

Of course, we have numerous other examples, too.

I'm still ticked that they would drop those charges, but maybe they were confident he'd never get to walk by a playground again.

[Kelly]

Looks like our email pal Tammie was featured in this week's commentary which exposed Carla Baron. Way to go, Tammie!

[Stellafane]

Looks like our email pal Tammie was featured in this week's commentary which exposed Carla Baron. Way to go, Tammie!

I saw that -- it made my day. I doubt it will dissuade Baron's hard-core supporters (some of whom, sadly, may also be her victims), but it may help set an upper limit to how far she will rise in public stature.

Have I ever mentioned I'm not all that fond of Carla Baron?

[Kelly]

I saw that -- it made my day. I doubt it will dissuade Baron's hard-core supporters (some of whom, sadly, may also be her victims), but it may help set an upper limit to how far she will rise in public stature.

Have I ever mentioned I'm not all that fond of Carla Baron?

I would have never guessed, Stellafane. :rolleyes:

[Kelly]

Today my blog is a year old. I mentioned the psychic series in it.

NO crap please, just throw money!!! ;)

[Kelly]

Please don't be fooled by other Psychics and Missing People threads. This one is the original. :)

[Kelly]

I just ran across this article: Court TV/Tara Grinstead (http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0706/1801_tara_grinstead.html)

Stellafane: You'll love the photo of CB as she's looking pretty ragged here. This family will not seem to budge in their belief in CB. :(

[rjh01]

Please don't be fooled by other Psychics and Missing People threads. This one is the original. :)

... And the best.

... And the longest.

Covers a wide range of topics while still always on topic. Guess this is a sign of respect.

[Kelly]

... And the best.

... And the longest.

Covers a wide range of topics while still always on topic. Guess this is a sign of respect.

We've had a few derailments along the way, but it's stayed on task well, considering the length.

[Roadtoad]

I just ran across this article: Court TV/Tara Grinstead (http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0706/1801_tara_grinstead.html)

Stellafane: You'll love the photo of CB as she's looking pretty ragged here. This family will not seem to budge in their belief in CB. :(

Just read it.

Crap.

If it were me, I'd tie her @$$ to a White, and drop her sorry butt into the Pacific.

[Kelly]

The headline should read: "Sylvia Browne is Wrong Again", but it is highly unlikely we'll see that happen.

There were 3 boys who were all about the same age range (19-20) and who disappeared within the same 9 month period. They'd all been missing for more than 5 years. Their names: Jeffrey Ben, Ryan Katcher, and Jason Jolkowski.

I ended up meeting Jeffrey's mom in person, and became very close to Ryan's mom via phone and email. Jeffrey's remains were found in March. He was murdered. I don't know if they'll ever solve it.

Today, Ryan's remains were found. It is unlikely that we will ever know exactly what happened to him, but one could guess that he accidentally drove into a very deep and cold lake while intoxicated.

Now Jason is the only one left "standing".

Numerous people are reading the blog after searching for info on Ryan. Many are searching for his name and SB's. They're wondering if she was right about him.

She was not. Is that a surprise? Of course not.

She said his body was down inside some sort of hole or large pipe in Indiana. The lake in which he was found is not that far from his home in IL.

Now before you say that she had something right because she said he was dead, please keep in mind that she says that on all of them. (That I know of) The only one she said was alive, was dead.

For those who are wondering, his mom, my friend, is doing ok considering. What I find is that the ones who have been waiting and wondering for a long time are relieved. They have some peace knowing the answer to the question:

"Where is he?"

[Kelly]

Off specific topic.............

One of several news articles about the press conference with the governor yesterday: News Article (http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2006/07/27/local/doc44c7f9f8bd0bc644720467.txt)

[Stellafane]

I just ran across this article: Court TV/Tara Grinstead (http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0706/1801_tara_grinstead.html)

Stellafane: You'll love the photo of CB as she's looking pretty ragged here. This family will not seem to budge in their belief in CB. :(

Ha! I bet CB hasn't looked that bedraggled since she wrapped up her last film, "Carla Does Cleveland."

Ooh! ooh! Ad hominem! I can't prove that! Cheap shot! Resorting to the tactics of our enemies! I'm SO ashamed...

(Can I stop now?)

Anyway, I'm a fan of Crimelibrary and I've read a lot of Seamus McGraw's stuff. So I suspect this is him voicing his own opinion in this quote:

...they are nothing more than charlatans and opportunists, hucksters who shamelessly promote themselves as they prey on anguished families of crime victims, tantalizing them with obscure references laced with mystical numbers or vague references to common items or broad description of common locales.

As a writer for Crimelibrary (owned by CourtTV) he probably can't come right out and say so, but I bet the preceding quote is what he really thinks of Carla Baron.

[Kelly]

Now tell us how you really feel, Stellafane. :D

Court TV seems to be pretty darn woo. I am surprised that Seamus is not woo, too.

To David from the SW US...you know who you are....and now I am so curious. My psychic powers seemed to have failed me. Thank you for your kindness.

[Stellafane]

Court TV seems to be pretty darn woo. I am surprised that Seamus is not woo, too.[/B]

I used to watch CourtTV regularly, but now I rarely do thanks to their "Psychic Detectives" and other woo-friendly content. But to them, I'm probably just collateral damage in the great scheme of things.

I've been reading Crimelibrary for about 10 years now. As I recall, they actually started out as an independent site, but later were acquired by CourtTV. Their content was very skeptical initially (and most of it still is). But over the last few years some woo has crept in, I suspect due to the influence of their corporate parent. I like to think there's still a few old-timers over there who seeth at having to be nice to the psychics these days.

[Silly Green Monkey]

How do ghosts find the people who are trying to contact them? There's an awful lot of people to try, even if we limit the selection to people in the same country or people who have heard of the person. Someone sits down with a recorder, a pendulum, a Ouija board, and suddenly they get who they're looking for? Is there some kind of Afterlife Pager?

[Stellafane]

How do ghosts find the people who are trying to contact them? There's an awful lot of people to try, even if we limit the selection to people in the same country or people who have heard of the person. Someone sits down with a recorder, a pendulum, a Ouija board, and suddenly they get who they're looking for? Is there some kind of Afterlife Pager?

If I were ever murdered and subsequently contacted by a real psychic, I sure as hell wouldn't tell them about the toy train that was important to me when I was three. The first words out of my ectoplasmodic mouth would be the name of my killer. But then again, I suppose being a ghost changes one's view of life.

[tsg]

If I were ever murdered and subsequently contacted by a real psychic, I sure as hell wouldn't tell them about the toy train that was important to me when I was three. The first words out of my ectoplasmodic mouth would be the name of my killer. But then again, I suppose being a ghost changes one's view of life.

Yes. I know me. I know me pretty well in fact. And if my afterlife spirit retains any of my "me-ness" whatsoever, I'm going to be quite upset if the person who did me in is still walking around free. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee that if I'm not shouting the bastard's name at the top of my lungs to anyone who will listen, it ain't me you're talking to.

[rjh01]

Interesting paper on missing people in Australia Missing persons affect 360 000 people, cost $72m a year (http://www.aic.gov.au/media/20000319.html). Australia has a population of about 20 million people.


Around 30 000 people are reported missing in Australia every year. At a rate of one person every 18 minutes and 1.55 people per 1000, this rate exceeds the total number of victims reported to the police for homicide, sexual assault and unarmed robbery.

No mention of psychics.

[Kelly]

Yes. I know me. I know me pretty well in fact. And if my afterlife spirit retains any of my "me-ness" whatsoever, I'm going to be quite upset if the person who did me in is still walking around free. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee that if I'm not shouting the bastard's name at the top of my lungs to anyone who will listen, it ain't me you're talking to.

Time after time those miserable psychics said things like: "He's so frustrated. He wants you to find him so badly."

But yet they couldn't come up with any specific information with which to accomplish this.

When asked a very specific question about something he liked, none of them could get it right, even though they were supposedly talking to him.

So, like you say "it ain't me you're talking to."

:mad:

[Kelly]

Interesting paper on missing people in Australia Missing persons affect 360 000 people, cost $72m a year (http://www.aic.gov.au/media/20000319.html). Australia has a population of about 20 million people.

From what I hear the missing problem in AU keeps growing, and they no official government or other missing person related orgs. One good thing is that they at least know their numbers, or so it appears. IN the US, we don't have accurate numbers on adults, and even the child case numbers cannot be trusted.

I have some AU contacts who hope to get a NPO going there in the future.

[Kelly]

Another one of my blog entries has caused a ripple elsewhere in the universe.

Someone from an Indian tribe found this story (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/31106-pmp-first-of-many-part-i.html)and knows the woman mentioned within. Apparently, she has been scamming people in other ways, and oddly enough, never claims to be a psychic in Indian circles. The emailer hasn't revealed to me specifically what the scams are, but indicates many people have been hurt. Their group was very interested to find this scam and have renewed the investigation of this woman.

[RSLancastr]

Their group was very interested to find this scam and have renewed the investigation of this woman.That's great!

[elaine]

Yea Kelly!

[rjh01]

Your blog must be one of the more influential ones of people who are not powerful or close to someone who is.

[Kelly]

Non-paranormal related news for those who have taken in interest in my org:

Hello all,

Melissa Harris (mother of Amber Harris) and I are going to the state capital in Lincoln tommorrow afternoon.

I have arranged a meeting with my state senator, who helped us push through Jason's Law, and another senator. My senator is in his last year there, so we will be meeting to discuss possible sponsorship by the other senator for the new bill we will be pushing in 2007.

While Jason's Law focused on awareness and communication, the new law encompasses procedures for LE for both missing persons and the unidentified deceased. (UID's) There are also sections that deal with the capture of DNA from the missing person or his/her family members for the federal database.

This law will be called Amber's Law in memory of Amber Harris, who was missing and was then found brutally murdered here in Omaha. It is important to Amber's family that her death serve some purpose, so we asked the Harrises to help us pass this bill.

This is a part of Project Jason's national Campaign for the Missing in which we are working on passing this legislation in each and every state. We have already achieved bill sponsorship in several states with many more in progress.

You can learn more about the Campaign for the Missing and the proposed law here (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2005/12/121305-campaign-for-missing-2006.html).

Thank you.

Kelly Jolkowski, Mother of Missing Jason Jolkowski
President and Founder,
Project Jason
http://www.projectjason.org
Read our Voice for the Missing Blog
http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

[flaresident]

Maybe if we apply the principles of success in problems that have been solved to this problem. i.e. not center on the problem, but focus on the positive. These people are always going to be around muddying the waters, why not embrace them to some degree, not believe them, but take them in like Jesus Christ ate at the same table as all the sinners that were around him.

[flaresident]

Maybe they will fade into the background. Everybody has to learn from their own experiences if they insist on letting these people take advantage of them. It is a matter of faith.

[Roadtoad]

Maybe they will fade into the background. Everybody has to learn from their own experiences if they insist on letting these people take advantage of them. It is a matter of faith.

The problem, FR, is that these nutcases would take this as some sort of endorsement of their activities.

[Kelly]

I didn't "insist" on anyone taking advantage of me. In the beginning, it just happened because I was ignorant. Many of these situations were thrown in my face, and one was to make a final satisfaction to a family member. Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words to say "insist".

Contrary to what many may think, I do not hate psychics. There are some who are obviously deluded that you feel sorry for in the same way that you feel sorry for a mentally ill person. The ones who know they are frauds receive my disdain and my hope they will stop what they are doing.

I could not embrace them, should they appear at my door, but nor could I spit upon them. Even though many here will not understand it, I do now have placed the outcome of my own story in God's hands. That doesn't mean that I make no efforts towards the resolution myself, but simply that I acknowledge the answer to this awful mystery will not come from people who claim to have paranormal abilities.

[elaine]

I didn't "insist" on anyone taking advantage of me. In the beginning, it just happened because I was ignorant. Many of these situations were thrown in my face, and one was to make a final satisfaction to a family member. Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words to say "insist".

Contrary to what many may think, I do not hate psychics. There are some who are obviously deluded that you feel sorry for in the same way that you feel sorry for a mentally ill person. The ones who know they are frauds receive my disdain and my hope they will stop what they are doing.

I could not embrace them, should they appear at my door, but nor could I spit upon them. Even though many here will not understand it, I do now have placed the outcome of my own story in God's hands. That doesn't mean that I make no efforts towards the resolution myself, but simply that I acknowledge the answer to this awful mystery will not come from people who claim to have paranormal abilities.


I would have to say, most psychics I've met, do believe they have a gift. As a former believer, I try not to judge them too much.

I agree, Sylvia and John Edwards and their ilk, however, must be despised.

[flaresident]

I would have to say, most psychics I've met, do believe they have a gift. As a former believer, I try not to judge them too much.

I agree, Sylvia and John Edwards and their ilk, however, must be despised.

I believe they are like Simon the Sorcerer; they use Satan's power instead of God's. God's Holy Spirit is a spirit of adoption, cooperation, love, charity; every component of love. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness and God answers prayers of poor and contrite hearts. I noticed that Satan likes to rush in quickly and ultimately God comes because we call upon him. Jesus Christ just proved Simon wrong. God also gives the power of healing and resurrection. It isn't exclusive to people in Bible times. We as a world are just far from him and don't know it. His love is everlasting. I think are moving toward him though and GOD will silence the silly psychics in the end because it is he who has all knowledge.

[Kelly]

I believe they are like Simon the Sorcerer; they use Satan's power instead of God's. God's Holy Spirit is a spirit of adoption, cooperation, love, charity; every component of love. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness and God answers prayers of poor and contrite hearts. I noticed that Satan likes to rush in quickly and ultimately God comes because we call upon him. Jesus Christ just proved Simon wrong. God also gives the power of healing and resurrection. It isn't exclusive to people in Bible times. We as a world are just far from him and don't know it. His love is everlasting. I think are moving toward him though and GOD will silence the silly psychics in the end because it is he who has all knowledge.


If you believe this, why do you let them run amock on your forum, (for missing Jennifer Kesse) spewing forth their nonsense? I don't understand.

[flaresident]

If you believe this, why do you let them run amock on your forum, (for missing Jennifer Kesse) spewing forth their nonsense? I don't understand.

Yes, they did, but now they are gone. I think partly because they thought it was owned by the Kesse family. I was contemplating doing something when it did stop ultimately. There should be a filter between these people and the family and my forum may have inadvertently acted as a buffer (thanks’ to several of you who countered them also).

They were like a hurd of bulls that blew through. Yes, I never intended the word "insist" to be interpreted the way it was, I should have said continue to befall them.

[Kelly]

Yes, they did, but now they are gone. I think partly because they thought it was owned by the Kesse family. I was contemplating doing something when it did stop ultimately. There should be a filter between these people and the family and my forum may have inadvertently acted as a buffer (thanks’ to several of you who countered them also).

They were like a hurd of bulls that blew through. Yes, I never intended the word "insist" to be interpreted the way it was, I should have said continue to befall them.

If they contact me, whether it is for my case or for one of the families we work for, I tell them that if they think they know something to contact the LE in charge of the case. I will not give them an arena to display their wares nor will I listen to what they have to say. In almost every case, they will not contact the police, even when I reassure them that the police will listen.

If any of them come to my forum, their posts are immediately deleted. It just won't be allowed, period. It says this in my posting guidelines:

"There will be no visions, dreams, or "psychic" revelations as those are unproven and can cause hurt to the families and prejudice to the case.

Any posts that do not fall within these guidelines (referring to all of the guidelines) may be edited or removed without notice to the author."

Do you still have an area for them to post in as you did before?

[flaresident]

If they contact me, whether it is for my case or for one of the families we work for, I tell them that if they think they know something to contact the LE in charge of the case. I will not give them an arena to display their wares nor will I listen to what they have to say. In almost every case, they will not contact the police, even when I reassure them that the police will listen.

If any of them come to my forum, their posts are immediately deleted. It just won't be allowed, period. It says this in my posting guidelines:

"There will be no visions, dreams, or "psychic" revelations as those are unproven and can cause hurt to the families and prejudice to the case.

Any posts that do not fall within these guidelines (referring to all of the guidelines) may be edited or removed without notice to the author."

Do you still have an area for them to post in as you did before?

Yes, but they don't come after they read all of the information that has already been posted there.

[Kelly]

Yes, but they don't come after they read all of the information that has already been posted there.

Then why maintain the section? Why not archive it somewhere for the good information it contained (not from the psychics) and then delete it?

The presence of this forum section still gives the appearance of a pro-psychic stance, IMHO.

[flaresident]

You have a very good point. I just feel like there might be something there for law enforcement. Who knows maybe the perpetrator posted something amid all that garbage. If it were active and dominating the forum, I would lock the thred. I know that LE are open to psychics in this case so I chose to leave it there.

[Kelly]

You have a very good point. I just feel like there might be something there for law enforcement. Who knows maybe the perpetrator posted something amid all that garbage. If it were active and dominating the forum, I would lock the thred. I know that LE are open to psychics in this case so I chose to leave it there.

I would assume at this point, though, that LE has gleaned whatever appeared to have any merit from the threads.

[Kelly]

Just posted as a comment on my blog:

"In the U.S. the leading "psychic detective" has worked with FBI personnel and lectured at the FBI Training Academy. However, an investigation conducted in 2006 reveals that Noreen Renier, (9 appearances on Court TV's Psychic Detective series) provided untrue information before millions of TV viewers and also during testimony in a court room. See www.amindformurder.com Thank you."

Has anyone heard this story before, or of John Merrell?

[flaresident]

Just posted as a comment on my blog:

"In the U.S. the leading "psychic detective" has worked with FBI personnel and lectured at the FBI Training Academy. However, an investigation conducted in 2006 reveals that Noreen Renier, (9 appearances on Court TV's Psychic Detective series) provided untrue information before millions of TV viewers and also during testimony in a court room. See www.amindformurder.com (http://www.amindformurder.com) Thank you."

Has anyone heard this story before, or of John Merrell?

Oh no, I have been waiting for something like this. I expect it in Carla Baron too. Incredible.

[Kelly]

Oh no, I have been waiting for something like this. I expect it in Carla Baron too. Incredible.

I'm not sure what you mean. "Oh, no" what?
You expect what in CB?

Sorry, I am just not clear on what you are saying.

[flaresident]

I'm not sure what you mean. "Oh, no" what?
You expect what in CB?

Sorry, I am just not clear on what you are saying.

Oh no, meaning finally, yes (hee hee). I just didn't expect this type of story so soon. I expect that in time Carla Baron will also be exposed over time also because she has her own TV show.

[Kelly]

Oh no, meaning finally, yes (hee hee). I just didn't expect this type of story so soon. I expect that in time Carla Baron will also be exposed over time also because she has her own TV show.

She has been exposed, but the public still allows themselves to be fleeced.

If you read into the story about NR, you'll find that a jury totally ignored scientific/foresensic evidence, which in turn, allowed NR to win the case! :mad:

I would have liked to have been on that jury. Amazing. :eye-poppi

[flaresident]

She has been exposed, but the public still allows themselves to be fleeced.

If you read into the story about NR, you'll find that a jury totally ignored scientific/foresensic evidence, which in turn, allowed NR to win the case! :mad:

I would have liked to have been on that jury. Amazing. :eye-poppi

:eek: They should NEVER be used in a court of law:eek:.

[tsg]

:eek: They should NEVER be used in a court of law:eek:.

Except as defendants.

[Kelly]

My apologies for the "form letter", but just trying to hit my usual hangouts and let you all know I'm not dead......yet. ;)

Hello Gen/Skep Forum friends,

I've fallen behind a bit at work on calls, so my posting during the day has ceased for the most part, other than a few at lunchtime. We're not really supposed to do the net, so we need to be careful about it. When I'm caught up with calls, then to be caught surfing the net is not so bad. Saturdays is a freebie with no bosses around.

I'm also a bit behind at my unpaid work, so I gotta crack the whip on myself. I had 2 start-up projects going at once. One didn't work and will most likely be shelved. The other one is close to full steam ahead and must be ready for rollout by October 1st. It's a huge local project with a press conference and all that fun stuff. (I posted about this over in the Computer forum.)

On top of that, the law enforcement missing person investigation training class we worked so hard to bring here is going to happen. We were able to get enough cops enrolled to satisfy the trainers, so we will be getting ready for that, too. That's also in early October.

Behind the scenes, I'm starting negotiations with state lawmakers for a new bill we will introduce in 2007. It's a part of our national campaign to pass this bill in all 50 states. I'm doing the legwork in NE and mentoring the others. The bill, when law, will establish better police procedures for dealing with missing person's cases. It also has sections on how unidentified bodies are handled and on obtaining DNA samples, both for the UID's and for the missing. (So they can match them.)

I received a very awesome letter in the mail to help us with the above mentioned campaign. It's a real letter, too, not a form letter. It's from world famous DNA scientist Dr. Arthur Eisenberg (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:3oCyGCSqF20J:www.dna.gov/rawmedia_repository/1331313a_a604_4de0_a457_31d0e77a3393+%22Dr+Arthur+ Eisenberg%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9). In his letter, he explains the importance of DNA testing on missing persons and UIDs and encourages each state to pass this law. I'm sure his backing will help. I met him at a national conference in 2004 after hearing him speak. I decided to be bold and approach him and talk briefly. We've kept in contact since then, and he even helped with a case of ours of a young deceased girl who was not properly ID'd by local authorities.

......and then there's the everyday stuff and various crisis situations that come up. Whew!

I'll be around though, but I have to cool it to get these things done.

[Garrette]

Just posted as a comment on my blog:

"In the U.S. the leading "psychic detective" has worked with FBI personnel and lectured at the FBI Training Academy. However, an investigation conducted in 2006 reveals that Noreen Renier, (9 appearances on Court TV's Psychic Detective series) provided untrue information before millions of TV viewers and also during testimony in a court room. See www.amindformurder.com (http://www.amindformurder.com) Thank you."

Has anyone heard this story before, or of John Merrell?

It's been a couple of years (at least) but I recall an expose of Renier by a former FBI agent, I think. "John Merrell" doesn't ring a bell, but it may just be my age showing.

iirc, the bit about Renier lecturing at Quantico is one of those bits of misdirection a la Targ and Puthoff allowing people to think they have a Stanford connection based on the name of their lab.

I'll try to dig up a bit more, but I make no promises.

[rjh01]

Been doing a search using Google. Found this - http://forum.signonsandiego.com/showthread.php?t=58252 There is a link here that did not work. If it works for you then you have a gold mine. Heading 'Noreen Renier, psychic, sued by skeptic '

[Luke T.]

Maybe if we apply the principles of success in problems that have been solved to this problem. i.e. not center on the problem, but focus on the positive. These people are always going to be around muddying the waters, why not embrace them to some degree, not believe them, but take them in like Jesus Christ ate at the same table as all the sinners that were around him.

The difference is that the sinners Jesus ate with were penitent.

These psychics are not. And chances are very good that the deliberate frauds are atheists who don't even believe in your God.

It is vital that you understand that with their diversions, these psychics are aiding and abetting the person who is behind the missing person's disappearance. They are hurting the chances of a solution being reached. Their nonsense needs to be purged from the Earth.


"But do not thou yield unto them: for there lie in wait for him of them more than forty men, which have bound themselves with an oath, that they will neither eat nor drink till they have killed him: and now are they ready, looking for a promise from thee."

[Garrette]

Gary Posner is who I was thinking of. He has a quick summary of issues with Renier here:

http://members.aol.com/garypos/Mind_review.html (http://members.aol.com/garypos/Mind_review.html)

He also mentions the book I was thinking of, and his chapter in it which discusses, among other things, her status as a lecturer at the FBI.

The book is Psychic Sleuths: ESP and Sensational Cases, Prometheus Books, 1994. The chapter on Renier, by Posner, can be read here:

http://members.aol.com/garypos/Renier_chap.html (http://members.aol.com/garypos/Renier_chap.html)

Having re-read it, I have to retract my statement from my earlier post that Renier was embellishing about being a lecturer at the FBI. It seems she was indeed, invited, to speak there to some agents. Posner discusses this briefly in the chapter.

[Kelly]

Thanks for the links. I was researching this extensively the other night and will do a blog post on it just as soon as I can. I am in touch with John Merrell. What a story!

[Dr Adequate]

Thanks for the links. I was researching this extensively the other night and will do a blog post on it just as soon as I can. I am in touch with John Merrell... You know the Elephant Man?

Oh ... no ... wait ...

[Kelly]

You know the Elephant Man?

Oh ... no ... wait ...

Didn't I tell you?

My spirit guide, Hortense, has been assisting me with communication.

:eek:

[Kelly]

A blog comment from another ignorant person. They take offense. I invited them here, but doubt they'll step up to the plate. It's so easy to just post and run, after all.

"I am very sorry to hear of your bad experiences with psychics. I am one, you speak of, although I don't pray upon anyone. I find your artical very very offensive. We are deap chrisitan's and if you know the bible, you would find in Act's as well as Chronicles, that God give's gifts of discernment, to speacial people, he only gives to those whom are selected with what he gives. He knows that there are false witnesses.

I have helped with crime issues with helping find missing or people that are dead. I contact only the authorities, not the families and if I am not asked to help, I don't. I personally haven't been wrong yet,though I know Christ works through me daily. I don't charge, though I have been told I should, as it does take up my time for a professional job I do, just like if you worked outside the home.

I have study SB and JE, though I don't believe they should charge anything, but that is their life.

I understand, your concerns, but what you say about others, do not not apply like you think and your words should be carefully selected in a better manner, as your motives concern me. I don't believe that pointing fingers and labeling is professional at all and if your goal is to warn everyone about your experience, it should be focused only on what you've encountered and not making everyone that has this TRUE gift as some kind of criminal.
I will truly pray for you and your family. I am sure, he hears me.
Thank you for your time."

Posted as a comment on this entry (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/33006-pmp-sylvia-and-friends-part-i.html).

[Loss Leader]

I have helped with crime issues with helping find missing or people that are dead. I contact only the authorities, not the families and if I am not asked to help, I don't. I personally haven't been wrong yet,though I know Christ works through me daily.

Ask her for the names of any cases she's worked on, any missing person she's found or the name of any police officer who has ever consulted her. I'll be glad to to do all the research on any specific claim she makes.

[Roadtoad]

A blog comment from another ignorant person. They take offense. I invited them here, but doubt they'll step up to the plate. It's so easy to just post and run, after all.

"I am very sorry to hear of your bad experiences with psychics. I am one, you speak of, although I don't pray upon anyone. I find your artical very very offensive. We are deap chrisitan's and if you know the bible, you would find in Act's as well as Chronicles, that God give's gifts of discernment, to speacial people, he only gives to those whom are selected with what he gives. He knows that there are false witnesses.

I have helped with crime issues with helping find missing or people that are dead. I contact only the authorities, not the families and if I am not asked to help, I don't. I personally haven't been wrong yet,though I know Christ works through me daily. I don't charge, though I have been told I should, as it does take up my time for a professional job I do, just like if you worked outside the home.

I have study SB and JE, though I don't believe they should charge anything, but that is their life.

I understand, your concerns, but what you say about others, do not not apply like you think and your words should be carefully selected in a better manner, as your motives concern me. I don't believe that pointing fingers and labeling is professional at all and if your goal is to warn everyone about your experience, it should be focused only on what you've encountered and not making everyone that has this TRUE gift as some kind of criminal.
I will truly pray for you and your family. I am sure, he hears me.
Thank you for your time."

Posted as a comment on this entry (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/33006-pmp-sylvia-and-friends-part-i.html).

So, what's the success rate? What kind of cases have they worked on? In other words, how much genuine evidence that actually helped to solve the case did they provide?

I don't give a rat's ass how much they say they "helped." If they didn't provide worthwhile evidence that helped bring an end to the case, they haven't done sh**. They have helped the perpetrators of the crime, not the victims. F*** 'em.

[Kelly]

As this person just left a comment on my blog, I have no email or other contact info for them. If they ever return to the blog, and I doubt they will, they will see my invite. Given their attitude, I don't see this person as being willing to prove anything. This one is very defensive, so I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Loss Leader]

As this person just left a comment on my blog, I have no email or other contact info for them. If they ever return to the blog, and I doubt they will, they will see my invite. Given their attitude, I don't see this person as being willing to prove anything. This one is very defensive, so I'm not going to hold my breath.

Well, Kelly, I'm just glad this crackpot didn't make any comments about your particular case. Reading your entire psychic thread was heartbreaking without having to add one more incident.

[Kelly]

Well, Kelly, I'm just glad this crackpot didn't make any comments about your particular case. Reading your entire psychic thread was heartbreaking without having to add one more incident.

I'm glad, too.

Funny thing, but since I wrote the series, I have not received the amount of "psychic" inquiries I was previously. I don't think I've had any via email at all. I've had a few sneak in here, and a few blog comments, but that's about it.

I must now be on the psychic community's blacklist.

It's no loss.

[Roadtoad]

I'm glad, too.

Funny thing, but since I wrote the series, I have not received the amount of "psychic" inquiries I was previously. I don't think I've had any via email at all. I've had a few sneak in here, and a few blog comments, but that's about it.

I must now be on the psychic community's blacklist.

It's no loss.

Can we get on their blacklist, too? Sounds like fun.

[Kelly]

Can we get on their blacklist, too? Sounds like fun.

I suspect that all JREF members are automatically blacklisted! :rolleyes:

[CptColumbo]

But we want to do something personally that leads to being balcklisted. Automatic is no fun.

[Kelly]

But we want to do something personally that leads to being balcklisted. Automatic is no fun.

LOL

Well, if they wouldn't be afraid to come here and prove themselves, then maybe you'd get your chance!

[Kelly]

Now here's a 1st.....a news article about a missing person in which they admit a psychic did nothing to help: http://cfn13.com/StoryHeadline.aspx?id=18620

[Gr8wight]

Now here's a 1st.....a news article about a missing person in which they admit a psychic did nothing to help: http://cfn13.com/StoryHeadline.aspx?id=18620

Nice to see. I sent the station an e-mail thanking them for making a full and honest report. Maybe some positive reinforcement will help.

[BPScooter]

(Kelly, did you change your avatar? It looks like you're sporting a clown nose like in Penn & Teller's book "How to Play in Traffic" pages 27-33 referring to Tom Mullica's idea. I like it.)

[CptColumbo]

Kelly,

Is there a website where people can go that tells us the legitimacy of a missing persons foundation. My dad got a call from one the other day, and turned them down because he assumed that it was a scam (he doesn't remember the name). He lives with his uncle who is in his 80's, has alzheimers, and is on all the lists.

[Kelly]

Nice to see. I sent the station an e-mail thanking them for making a full and honest report. Maybe some positive reinforcement will help.

Thank you for emailing them. I certainly agree about the reinforcement. My thought about the article in general was that in there was nothing new in the case, they were looking for anything at all that would be allowed by their manager to run a story again. It had been a couple of weeks since the last article. Regardless of why they ran the story, I am sure glad they just didn't leave it hanging (in regards to the psychic "tip") like most of them do.

(Kelly, did you change your avatar? It looks like you're sporting a clown nose like in Penn & Teller's book "How to Play in Traffic" pages 27-33 referring to Tom Mullica's idea. I like it.)

Hi BPScooter,

The change is just a temporary one. It's an inside joke from some of us Humor Forum regulars. I have no idea who Tom Mullica is, but glad it's seen as humorous by those outside of the actual joke. :)

[Kelly]

Kelly,

Is there a website where people can go that tells us the legitimacy of a missing persons foundation. My dad got a call from one the other day, and turned them down because he assumed that it was a scam (he doesn't remember the name). He lives with his uncle who is in his 80's, has alzheimers, and is on all the lists.

Hello,

There is no such site. I wish there was, but I think there would be legal ramifications for the publisher.

There is a group of orgs who form a membership somewhat like a "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" for missing persons orgs, however, one was given the boot for a violation of ethics, so they're not immune to having a bad apple among them. Joining orgs are highly scrutinized before being allowed in. In this case, perhaps this org had been in a long time before their troubled behavior began.

I know of groups who have claimed to be a 501 c 3 and were not. It is possible they had submitted their ap to the IRS and were awaiting approval, but they had no business claiming that ahead of time. I also know of real orgs with ethical issues, anything from misuse of money to divulging sensitive case info.

There was a man in either MI or MN who had an org and was busted for scamming. He had those lucite money containers placed in businesses all over and just pocketed the money. He never performed any of his promised services and was not even qualified to do the work. His org was more safety/teen issues based, if I recall, rather than missing persons. The point is, however, that I have no doubt that this sort of scam and telephone donation scams go on all of the time.

None of the orgs I know solicits over the phone. If your dad ever gets one of those calls again, see if you can get him to get whatever info he can from them. I would be glad to at least tell you enough that you understand that it's either a "green light" situation, or something else.

There are hundreds of orgs in this field. Generally, I have heard of most of them, but may not neccesarily know the persons running the org.

Here is a place at the IRS to search for orgs so that you at least know they are a 501 c 3: http://apps.irs.gov/app/pub78

On our resources page, we list the orgs we have established strong relationships with that we know are completely legitimate: http://www.projectjason.org/resources.html

I sincerely hope that no one is doing a phone scam using missing persons, but nothing is sacred to scammers. :(

[Kelly]

I received a phone call the other night on my home phone from a woman who said she wanted to help me (for free) with my son's case. She had left a message earlier in the day claiming that she had questions about my org, which was not the case. When she prefaced her intro with comments like "wanting to help us" and "assuring you I am not crazy", I knew it was going to be "one of those calls", which I had not had to deal with in a very long time. This woman had not seen my blog, as I found out later in the conversation, so she was not aware of our position when it comes to things paranormal in relation to missing persons.

I believe that because of what I have learned here and in sharing our stories, I was able to handle this phone call in a new way. I remained calm and did not become upset or angry at this woman.

I know little about divining, other than it's a stick finding water. I knew that people now say you can find missing persons by divining, which seems pretty ludicrous to me.

The woman began by telling me that she came within 100 yards of finding a missing couple by using this method. She said she could not go further because it was on private property, and she didn't want to get in trouble for trespassing. It's a long story, but she had some knowledge of a person involved in the disappearance beforehand that led her to this site. I questioned her on this and pointed out that she did not really find them because she was 100 yards away and she had pre-knowledge. To top it off, she never told law enforcement because of the "they'll think I'm crazy" bit. So, when they found the bodies of the couple on the property, she self-claimed success. She could not argue with me when I pointed out the 3 facts: pre-knowledge, 100 yards away, and lack of confidence in the answer which led to not reporting it and no real proof it ever happened.

I admitted I did not know much about divining other than the water and stick system. I asked how one finds missing persons with this method, and she mentioned "with a copper wire". I said: "A copper wire can find missing persons?" I asked her numerous questions about instances she knew of wherein this worked, and she had none. She only had her own set of "facts" that came from other diviners. I came get her to admit that the whole premise did sound nutty. I did this in a very gentle manner. She was still not convinced.

As she claimed it is a "gift from God", I launched into a discussion of Christian beliefs in regards to using supposed paranormal "gifts". I gave her numerous examples of Sylvia Browne's antics. I also spoke to her about the hurt and pain caused to families of the missing by persons making this claims, not to mention the wasted resources. A few times during the conversation, she started to cry. I remained calm and assured her that I did not think she was a bad person, but just misguided. She apologized to me several times.

She still would not quite let go of it. I told her she could take her stick and find water all she wanted to, but that she'd better not claim to find missing persons and contact other families. I suggested that she find a huge property with many hiding places, and to have a person hide on the property and then see if she could find them, having neutral witnesses along. I told her not to do this just once, but numerous times. She said that was a good idea and that she would think about doing that.

I again reiterated the pain caused to families who go through agony because of their situation in general, but are then placed in an additional pain.wrenching situation for no reason and with no results. I did not hold back on this.

I told her to go read my blog, and that I sincerely hoped she would learn something more from it and that she would never make another phone call like this again. Again, I kept my voice calm and purposely lowered it to sound "comforting". Funny that I should have been in the reverse position.

She cried and apologized again, and then she thanked me and said that she was grateful I listened to her and that she had learned something. I felt she was sincere, but I also realize she might have been paying some lip service out of guilt.

It was interesting and I was pleased for myself that it had no ill effect on me.

[RemieV]

Kelly - SAPS is in the process of contacting mediums for help finding a missing person. We're uploading all of their responses so everyone can see them. If you've come across any likely candidates who may want to contribute, please let me know :)

[Roadtoad]

Remie, why are you encouraging these people? It's already been documented that this is a waste of precious time, and considering how little time there is from the time someone vanishes until they're potentially found alive, why would you do this?

No one needs a database of psychics. We need them to grow the f*** up, realize it's not always about them, and start doing things that actually help find the missing, like putting up posters, or manning phone lines. They need to quit stealing money, energy, and precious time from those who are seeking the lost.

[Loss Leader]

It was interesting and I was pleased for myself that it had no ill effect on me.

When you get to heaven, I would not be surprised if you're allowed one free dessert topping for your kindness to this woman.

[BPScooter]

Hi, total digression, the clown-nose joke I referred to is to glue a little baby red foam clown nose to your drivers license. Hand it to whoever asks for it, and while they look down at the picture, sneakily stick a real clown nose on and when they look up... well... you look just like the picture! P&T claim it works wonders. Tom Mullica does a one-man Red Skelton tribute show in Branson currently, does all the characters and everything.

[Kelly]

Kelly - SAPS is in the process of contacting mediums for help finding a missing person. We're uploading all of their responses so everyone can see them. If you've come across any likely candidates who may want to contribute, please let me know :)

HI,

I looked over your webpage and what you are doing. I'm not going to solicit psychics for any purpose. I do not want them coming my way for any reason. I am quite content that the blog seems to have scared them away. I don't have time to deal with them. My case work comes first.

If, however, one should coincidentally contact me in the meantime, I will send them your way with my typical "win the million and then come back" statement. I will post more about this on your thread.

Remie, why are you encouraging these people? It's already been documented that this is a waste of precious time, and considering how little time there is from the time someone vanishes until they're potentially found alive, why would you do this?

No one needs a database of psychics. We need them to grow the f*** up, realize it's not always about them, and start doing things that actually help find the missing, like putting up posters, or manning phone lines. They need to quit stealing money, energy, and precious time from those who are seeking the lost.

I agree that we don't need to give them any more links and fame of any sort. The outcome of her project will be interesting. I will post more about that on her thread.

When you get to heaven, I would not be surprised if you're allowed one free dessert topping for your kindness to this woman.

Aw, that's very sweet of you to say. If I do make it, I will choose hot fudge!

Hi, total digression, the clown-nose joke I referred to is to glue a little baby red foam clown nose to your drivers license. Hand it to whoever asks for it, and while they look down at the picture, sneakily stick a real clown nose on and when they look up... well... you look just like the picture! P&T claim it works wonders. Tom Mullica does a one-man Red Skelton tribute show in Branson currently, does all the characters and everything.

That is hilarious! I could imagine myself doing it in my younger day because it is akin to my sense of humor. :)

[Kelly]

Recieved via email from an Australian acquantaince who hosts a site featuring missing persons from AU:

"You unknowingly helped me alot a few weeks back, I did a newspaper interview and was then contacted by three psychics so your strong views and advice about them really helped me to fend them off. One of them left me open-mouthed - he was enquiring about how much reward was offered about various cases as he felt that would "motivate" his psychic abilities. I told him very clearly what he could do with his "abilities"! "

[elaine]

I received a phone call the other night on my home phone from a woman who said she wanted to help me (for free) with my son's case. She had left a message earlier in the day claiming that she had questions about my org, which was not the case. When she prefaced her intro with comments like "wanting to help us" and "assuring you I am not crazy", I knew it was going to be "one of those calls", which I had not had to deal with in a very long time. This woman had not seen my blog, as I found out later in the conversation, so she was not aware of our position when it comes to things paranormal in relation to missing persons.

I believe that because of what I have learned here and in sharing our stories, I was able to handle this phone call in a new way. I remained calm and did not become upset or angry at this woman.

I know little about divining, other than it's a stick finding water. I knew that people now say you can find missing persons by divining, which seems pretty ludicrous to me.

The woman began by telling me that she came within 100 yards of finding a missing couple by using this method. She said she could not go further because it was on private property, and she didn't want to get in trouble for trespassing. It's a long story, but she had some knowledge of a person involved in the disappearance beforehand that led her to this site. I questioned her on this and pointed out that she did not really find them because she was 100 yards away and she had pre-knowledge. To top it off, she never told law enforcement because of the "they'll think I'm crazy" bit. So, when they found the bodies of the couple on the property, she self-claimed success. She could not argue with me when I pointed out the 3 facts: pre-knowledge, 100 yards away, and lack of confidence in the answer which led to not reporting it and no real proof it ever happened.

I admitted I did not know much about divining other than the water and stick system. I asked how one finds missing persons with this method, and she mentioned "with a copper wire". I said: "A copper wire can find missing persons?" I asked her numerous questions about instances she knew of wherein this worked, and she had none. She only had her own set of "facts" that came from other diviners. I came get her to admit that the whole premise did sound nutty. I did this in a very gentle manner. She was still not convinced.

As she claimed it is a "gift from God", I launched into a discussion of Christian beliefs in regards to using supposed paranormal "gifts". I gave her numerous examples of Sylvia Browne's antics. I also spoke to her about the hurt and pain caused to families of the missing by persons making this claims, not to mention the wasted resources. A few times during the conversation, she started to cry. I remained calm and assured her that I did not think she was a bad person, but just misguided. She apologized to me several times.

She still would not quite let go of it. I told her she could take her stick and find water all she wanted to, but that she'd better not claim to find missing persons and contact other families. I suggested that she find a huge property with many hiding places, and to have a person hide on the property and then see if she could find them, having neutral witnesses along. I told her not to do this just once, but numerous times. She said that was a good idea and that she would think about doing that.

I again reiterated the pain caused to families who go through agony because of their situation in general, but are then placed in an additional pain.wrenching situation for no reason and with no results. I did not hold back on this.

I told her to go read my blog, and that I sincerely hoped she would learn something more from it and that she would never make another phone call like this again. Again, I kept my voice calm and purposely lowered it to sound "comforting". Funny that I should have been in the reverse position.

She cried and apologized again, and then she thanked me and said that she was grateful I listened to her and that she had learned something. I felt she was sincere, but I also realize she might have been paying some lip service out of guilt.

It was interesting and I was pleased for myself that it had no ill effect on me.

Kudos Kelly!

I wonder what the long term effect will be.

[Kelly]

Kudos Kelly!

I wonder what the long term effect will be.

On her or on me, or both? :)

I do feel like I cast alot of doubt at her feet.

[Tanstaafl]

Fabulous job Kelly! :)

I don't think anyone could have handled that better.

[Kelly]

Fabulous job Kelly! :)

I don't think anyone could have handled that better.

Thanks, Tanstaafl.

Great nose job, BTW. ;)

[Orphia Nay]

Recieved via email from an Australian acquantaince who hosts a site featuring missing persons from AU:

"You unknowingly helped me alot a few weeks back, I did a newspaper interview and was then contacted by three psychics so your strong views and advice about them really helped me to fend them off. One of them left me open-mouthed - he was enquiring about how much reward was offered about various cases as he felt that would "motivate" his psychic abilities. I told him very clearly what he could do with his "abilities"! "
[bolding mine]

Hi Kelly! (Haven't seen you about for a few days - I hope you are well.) It's great that you receive feedback like this, showing positive results from your work.

The bolded quote just goes to show the whole "I couldn't apply for Randi's million because I can't use my 'powers' for profit" excuse is utter stinking BS.

I'd be interested to know your contact's website's link.

[RemieV]

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize anyone was writing to me. Roadtoad, this particular case is such that... it isn't a rush-to-solve type of thing, so taking the time out to ask a medium is absolutely not affecting how much time is spent on anything else.

In other cases, I totally agree. However, the site is designed to bring an experience to you - a medium, a ghost hunter, a psychic. Whomever.

And yes, to you mediums have been thoroughly debunked. Not to many.

[Roadtoad]

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize anyone was writing to me. Roadtoad, this particular case is such that... it isn't a rush-to-solve type of thing, so taking the time out to ask a medium is absolutely not affecting how much time is spent on anything else.

In other cases, I totally agree. However, the site is designed to bring an experience to you - a medium, a ghost hunter, a psychic. Whomever.

And yes, to you mediums have been thoroughly debunked. Not to many.

They have been debunked to any who are willing to look at the facts. This is why we go by what is right, rather than what the mob wants.

[sophia8]

They have been debunked to any who are willing to look at the facts. This is why we go by what is right, rather than what the mob wants.They've certainly been debunked to me. And I used to be a total believer - a practicing Spiritualist who sat in a mediumship development circle.

[Kelly]

[bolding mine]

I'd be interested to know your contact's website's link.


Here it is: http://www.supernerd.com.au/~glittercot/

[Luke T.]

Kelly, please check your PM inbox.

[Kelly]

Kelly, please check your PM inbox.

I should be caught up on PM's now. :)

[jfk]

Kelly, i apologize for this being off-topic, but i read your comment re knowing Tricia G personally, and i wanted to be sure that you saw this.

today i made a comment in WS that they didn't agree with and her mods A) deleted the comment, B) PM'd me a *warning* that i could not read because they then C) blocked me from viewing ALL forums.

the comment, in a Natalie Holloway forum, was how some people apparantly are recruited by Aruba to help Aruba maintain a good image. that was it. that was what i posted that got censored.

and when i reposted explaining that i didn't mean that WebSleuths recruited people, that i meant Aruba was doing so (it was a joke to begin with), WindChime deleted the whole post and blocked me from the site with NO warning.

and they won't respond to my emails asking for an explanation.

since then, in searching for contact info for her in Google, i've come across many comments in other forums about Tricia and WebSleuths being very censoring and delete-happy if people don't agree with her or her mods. seems to be quite an unfair way of running something called a "forum", when the word "forum" in fact implies objectivity and freedom of speech and thought.

what's her deal?

[jfk]

I've just been blacklisted from WebSleuths. (wonder how big THIS club is...).

does that count?


at first i was pissed, but when i stop and consider some of the moronic posts that fit their criteria, i should thank her.

right?



But we want to do something personally that leads to being balcklisted. Automatic is no fun.

[Kelly]

Hello jfk,

Tricia is a very kind and compassionate person. She does let her mods run the board as they see fit for the most part, is my understanding. I don't always agree with them, but in general, they seem to do a good job. Keep in mind that for the most part, none of my posts are controversial, or could be perceived as such, and I don't often venture into other subforums that do not have to do with missing persons.

What is it that you wanted of me in respect to this situation? Please email it or PM it to me as this is very OT both on this thread and in this forum.

Thank you,
Kelly

[Kelly]

For an update on my case, please see the thread in Community entitled "The Two Million Dollar Story."

[BPScooter]

A recent thing in Idaho/eastern WA has been troubling. He abducted and killed some kids. A fully confessed life-sentence type of Bad Guy is getting all literary on his important self, has cryptography on his side, and is plea-bargaining his laptop. I gather that his laptop is probably full of evidence, and his codes are too hard to crack.

There is something sick, deeply and weirdly wrong, about some of our fellow citizens. Not very many, but there is some definite thing that some of these folks think and do that just about 99.999 other percentiles don't do. Yes, we must find and confine them. With all due diligence.

Can we also think about prevention and help before the fact? It's hard to even start with that, without becoming a Nanny or a teacher or some sort of thing. The day-to-day police force doesn't think of this too much, their hands are full with other things.

[RemieV]

I hate to bust in mildly off-topic but, as an aside, law enforcement is being just about as helpful as the mediums were in my uncle's missing persons case.

Texas Equusearch was kind enough to find an officer willing to take my report by phone. Unfortunately, it's been three weeks and despite multiple messages, he has not called me back.

I'm trying a bunch of other directions now, but honestly, I'm running low on ideas.

[Kelly]

Remie,

You are experiencing what most of us go through now: the lack of help in missing person's cases. It's such a battle, but it shouldn't be.

If you would, please, email me your details as in your PM. It is too detailed for a PM and I find it much easier to converse via email.

I will be glad to help you to the best of my abilility.

Kelly

BPScooter: Don't we all wish there was a solution for this craziness?

[Kelly]

This woman suddenly popped up out of nowhere. I've never heard of her. She's registering and posting at numerous missing persons' forum, offering her "help".

She has a website (http://bengleman.com/psychic.htm) with a focus on missing persons, which irks me to no end.

Oddly enough, she also retains a full time job (http://www.bengleman.com/).

Can anyone pursue?

[elaine]

I posted the request on the Denver Skeptics Meet-up board as well.

[grayman]

I notice she's also a member of Unity (http://www.unityonline.org/). I guess when the computer doesn't work and the psychic ability doesn't help, you pray and pray and pay...I mean pray.

[Loss Leader]

This woman suddenly popped up out of nowhere. I've never heard of her. She's registering and posting at numerous missing persons' forum, offering her "help".

She has a website (http://bengleman.com/psychic.htm) with a focus on missing persons, which irks me to no end.

Oddly enough, she also retains a full time job (http://www.bengleman.com/).

Can anyone pursue?

Ms. Engleman is based in Corpus Christi. The website of the Corpus Christi Police Department lists ten or so open missing persons cases and has info on each for anyone interested. It would seem logical that if Ms. Engleman has provided any useful help to the police, she would start at home. Inquiries about her can be sent to Chief Bryan Smith, Corpus Christi Police Department, 321 John Sartain St., Corpus Christi, TX 78401, (361) 886-2603.

Let me know if anyone finds anything I couldn't have guessed.

[Kelly]

Thanks, all.

I have sent an email to the Chief of Police in CC to inquire. I'd still like to find a skeptic to pursue her claims directly, if possible.

[Kelly]

The chief already wrote back:

"Kelly,

Good evening... I was just perusing my e-mails on a Sunday night, in preparation for another busy week, and I ran across your message. I am very sympathetic of your situation, and I as a law enforcement officer, I am very concerned about the plight of missing persons. Now for the specifics regarding your e-mail:

No, I do not personally know this individual who has claimed to have assisted law enforcement in missing person cases. However, I can tell you that there has been no indication that a paranormal "expert" has ever assisted in solving a CCPD case.

I will do more research and get back to you... but I share your concern about the false hope provided by such paranormal "experts." "

I'd love to know what the "psychic" would say when asked if she's worked with the CC police.

[Eos of the Eons]

Good job Kelly! That "psychic" is a liar, and the police are not about to go all PC to keep the lying psychic placated. Expose her, skin her!

[Kelly]

Thanks, EOS.

I need someone with a more anonymous email to write her and pose the question, along with other general questions to see what she says about it.

She never claimed to work with that PD specifically, so this will be a start to see what she says about it.

[hcmom]

I have to wonder if in her job working in computer repairs, she references this site --

Holistic Computer Medicine (http://users.bestweb.net/%7Ebennetc/holistic)

(I'm pretty sure the site is a joke...I hope...)

[rjh01]

I think everything about this woman is a pathetic joke. I would not use her computer services. No wonder she needs a second job exploiting people.

[RemieV]

Sent off the question, Kelly :) I'll let you know what the reply is.

[Kelly]

Thank you, Remie!

It will also be interesting what the PD finds out in research.

Did you ever get your missing person's case?

[YoPopa]

I think everything about this woman is a pathetic joke. I would not use her computer services. No wonder she needs a second job exploiting people.Such a cynic you are! The two jobs compliment each other nicely. After repairing your computer, updating it's security and perusing files I'll bet she can do a great reading for you.

[Chicken Pot Pie]

Hot news from our local crack team of journalists:

http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/4768411.html

Of course, the lead-in on the news previews touted the "psychic enlisted" part so as to get you to watch the report. Though the psychic was wrong, the preview made one think a psychic caused a resolving of the case. I only heard the preview once, but it went something like, "...blah blah blah...has a psychic's involvement lead investigators to new evidence? Watch tonight..." The detective later says that the news report about the psychic may cause someone to remember something or come foreward. The new exposure in the media, NOT the psychic. Again, the lovely media makes more out of the psychic's role than the actual detective in the case.

[Ketyk]

::bump::

Because there are a lot of new people out there. If you haven't seen this thread, read the original post. Where you go from there, and what you do next, is up to you.

It would be wonderful if psychics could find missing people, but they can't. (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com)

Project Jason (www.projectjason.org)

[rjh01]

This thread is one of the most important in the JREF forum. We almost need a summary of what it says. Kelly has told me she has news to post here.

[Ketyk]

Yeah, this time of year is rough on her and the people she helps.

[Ketyk]

I'd summarize but I'd get banned for swearing.

[rjh01]

Yeah, this time of year is rough on her and the people she helps.

You did not finish this, so I will.

This time of year is rough on the people she helps. They invite all the relatives over and one does not turn up. Bad enough if they ring in with a pathetic excuse, but when you have heard nothing from them for ages and no idea why or even if they are alive then,,,

Also it would be tough on the people who have run away. They may think about their families and if it was all worth it. But know they cannot ring home for fear of the consequences.

[Ketyk]

Newcomers, please read the original post.

To be honest, I keep away from this thread for weeks or months at a time. I tend to hang in Humor, and occasionally read and post in the serious stuff.

That said, there are things to be done. I was given a leaflet by a psychic yesterday. I called and asked if I could get a reading for free. Nope, $40.00 per hour.

I do have the address though. Maybe a shy Rabbit will pay a visit to said establishment. Armed with knowledge and an ability to negotiate prices down, let's see what is in my future.

And Kelly, sorry I haven't got my leaflets out. Hopefully tomorrow.

[Ketyk]

1000 of THESE (http://www.projectjason.org/downloads/ProjectJasonPersonal_ID_Kit.doc) Personal ID Kit’s will be distributed Monday morning, with some minor modifications by me making the volume more practical.

[Ketyk]

500 down, 500 to go. It is raining, so tomorrow I will drop some in dry newspaper boxes.

[Kelly]

Thanks guys for keeping the thread bumped. A special thanks to Rabbit for distributing the ID Kits. Everyone thinks it couldn't happen to them, but those of us who've experienced this unending nightmare are proof.

Yes, this time of year is especially difficult for all of us. We always hope for some miracle, but that doesn't happen for the great majority. Now we hope the new year will bring answers.

Hold tight to those whom you love. None of us know when our last moment will be with that person.

Kelly

[Ketyk]

I plan on plucking roots tonight. Just for practice. I'll get the pliers out tomorrow for a thorough plucking. ;)

[Fnord]

Post deleted due to erroneous data.

Consider it a freindly bump.

[Ketyk]

Consider it a friendly bump.
I shouldn't, but I find this strangely erotic.

Bump. Say it 10 times fast.


It would be wonderful if psychics could find missing people, but they can't. (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com)

Project Jason (www.projectjason.org)

[Navin]

Shawn Hornbeck, missing since 2002 was incredibly found alive today. I can't post links but all the major news sites have a report of this. Shawn's family received a reading from James Van Praagh on Beyond and Syvlia Browne on Montel. It's time to check their accuracy. If memory serves they both "read" that Shawn had died.

Edit: Yes, confirmed. Sylvia Browne is on record with another failure.

Browne told Pam and Craig Akers their son "is no longer with us" but she had the impression his body was in a wooded area about 20 miles southwest of Richwoods. She said it would be near two large, jagged boulders that seem out of place in that area.

From: dailyjournalonline.com/articles/2003/02/27/community/news2.txt

[rjh01]

Good one Navin. Here is your link http://dailyjournalonline.com/articles/2003/02/27/community/news2.txt

Looks like he was found only in the last few hours. I will tell RSLancaster.

Edit. Confirmed the boy has been found. See http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16600139/


The boys were found in a Kirkwood home belonging to Michael Devlin, 41, who has been charged with one count of first-degree kidnapping, Sheriff Gary Toelke said. The discovery was “unbelievable news,” Toelke said at a news conference.

[RSLancastr]

Yes, several people emailed me at the StopSylviaBrowne site to let me know about this, most of them from Shawn Hornbeck's area.

The resulting article can be read about here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2253899#post2253899

It's so great he was found, and it's wonderful that so many people immediately thought to notify the SSB site about it.

Word's getting around!

[chillzero]

My thoughts go to both families, with the hopes that they are able to recover a healthy family from this terrible situation.

[Ketyk]

Gosh, I saw, and read, about these events.

I suppose it's a lesson learned. What you learn may by different than I, but I learned to keep a sharper eye.

No 2001 ratting on people, but bringing a bunt cake, and using my snowblower on a wintry day.

A block away is not a mile, and everyone loves cake.

[Ketyk]

--Read the original post, please--

::Shameless bump::

I never did go to that psychic, but will today, given my foul mood. I feel sorry for that office, because I need to vent my frustration, and I've picked my target. If I were happy today, I would likely give them a pass, but someone needs a figurative bitch-slap, and they drew the small straw.

It would be wonderful if psychics could find missing people, but they can't. (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com)

Project Jason (www.projectjason.org)

[Luke T.]

This woman suddenly popped up out of nowhere. I've never heard of her. She's registering and posting at numerous missing persons' forum, offering her "help".

She has a website (http://bengleman.com/psychic.htm) with a focus on missing persons, which irks me to no end.

That link no longer works.

Oddly enough, she also retains a full time job (http://www.bengleman.com/).

That link, which is on the same site as the other one, still works. So you must have had some effect.

[Luke T.]

A Google search on Beth Engleman's name shows she has been involved in a few missing person cases in Texas.

The cached version of the link that no longer works (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:s26-vNvwm1MJ:www.bengleman.com/psychic+Beth+Engleman+psychic&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6).

Special Note To Law Enforcement Officers: Contact Beth Engleman for help with any unsolved missing person or homicide. case. First consultation is free.

Beth Engleman also does Life and *Health Readings and After Death Contact. To schedule an appointment, please call (361) 980- 8277 or (316) 244-2482 9:00 am to 8:00 pm CDT Monday- Sunday. Psychic Searches - Beth Engleman is located in Corpus Christi, TX.

Wonder if that number still works...

And irony of irony, she has a link called What Not To Do When Someone Is Missing (http://www.bengleman.com/notdo.htm)!

Don't ignore your intuition. If you have strong feelings about what might have happened, now is the time to mention it. Your dreams or nightmares should be noted at this time.



Aggghhhhh!

[jonronson]

This is such a long thread, and I'm sure the answer is in here somewhere, but did you end up setting up a website dedicated to chronicling psychics who flock to the parents of missing children?

[Big Les]

This is redundant, as these links appear above, but hey-ho!

Don't Kelly's blog (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/30606-pmp-introduction-to-psychics-and.html), plus "Project Jason" itself (http://www.projectjason.org) fit the bill? Or are you looking for something more along the lines of www.stopsylviabrowne.com ?

[jonronson]

Thank you! Kelly's blog is what I was looking for. Spending time with the parents of missing children and chronicling each occasion they're contacted by a mystic might make an illuminating newspaper article.

[Big Les]

Go for it Jon; sounds great. As the BBC's "Watchdog" aren't likely to take an interest, it would be nice to have some UK-based analysis of what these people do.

[rjh01]

Talking about Kelly, where is she? Her last post here was on 10 January (That is two weeks ago). Cannot find anything in her blog for this year. She has not been very active in this forum since end November. Does anyone know anything? I assume she is just busy.

[Ketyk]

I know that when we don't find posts from Kelly we worry. I know I do.

. She is still there.

Sometimes we find ourselves with other issues that take priority over posting here. Everyone should understand that by now.

At any rate, I think she will be back, when circumstances permit.

My guess is that me being a pest will result in a post soon, but who knows.

I will just wait. Those of us that have read this thread often do, checking every day.

Kelly will be back, when she is ready. That seems like a good idea to me.

--Rabbit

[RSLancastr]

I've heard from her a few times since then, in relation to StopSylviaBrowne stuff.

She's busy!

[rjh01]

As long as she is OK, busy and in contact with both of you then that is all I need to know. I just look forward to reading what she has been up to last 2 months or so, when she is ready.

[Mr. Stick]

That's funny, I've been wondering about Kelly the last couple of days. I was starting to worry.

What happened to psychicpredators.com? Kelly, Claus, anyone?

[rjh01]

Just thought I would bump this thread. It has been 8 days since the last post.

Kelly
I have been missing you. From reading this thread, I think a few others are missing you too.

[Kelly]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for thinking about me and remaining a part of this cause.

I haven't seen Beth Englemen around as much. Maybe she decided to get out of the psychic business as it pertains to the missing. I'm sure Alison at SAPS had alot to do with that, too.

Pychicpredators.com is still something I want to see up and running. Everything is done and submitted to Claus other than a page with the top dozen or so links to psyhic/missing people related exposes. This is something I could really use a couple of volunteers to do. We need the links, a brief summary of each, and an ok from the originating publisher to add to this site.

I have been so swamped with work for the missing. I can barely keep up. I have many projects going at the same time, so making it here has just not happened. I have also taken some scheduled time off during the week for my family and for me, something lacking. I miss you all though!

Here's an article that came out today that talks about one of our campaigns:
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070204/NEWS02/702040545

Hopefully, I should be announcing a new project very soon. It's in collaboration with another group and while it is more about missing people, the psychic angle will definetely be included!

Warmest regards,
Kelly

[Roadtoad]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for thinking about me and remaining a part of this cause.

I haven't seen Beth Englemen around as much. Maybe she decided to get out of the psychic business as it pertains to the missing. I'm sure Alison at SAPS had alot to do with that, too.

Pychicpredators.com is still something I want to see up and running. Everything is done and submitted to Claus other than a page with the top dozen or so links to psyhic/missing people related exposes. This is something I could really use a couple of volunteers to do. We need the links, a brief summary of each, and an ok from the originating publisher to add to this site.

I have been so swamped with work for the missing. I can barely keep up. I have many projects going at the same time, so making it here has just not happened. I have also taken some scheduled time off during the week for my family and for me, something lacking. I miss you all though!

Here's an article that came out today that talks about one of our campaigns:
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070204/NEWS02/702040545

Hopefully, I should be announcing a new project very soon. It's in collaboration with another group and while it is more about missing people, the psychic angle will definetely be included!

Warmest regards,
Kelly

This is great news, Kelly. And I'm glad to see you back, too.

[CptColumbo]

I missed those haunting eyes.

[rjh01]

Welcome back. I must be psychic, thinking about you less than one day before you posted.:D
I see you have been busy here and elsewhere.

[Kelly]

Thanks, guys! :blush:

[Kelly]

Boy, we sure have some activity going in the skeptic vs psychics area.

Today I was contacted by a very big name network show who is working on a story in relation to psychics and missing people. (Not my blog series, but the topic in general) Let's hope they follow through. I will let you know more as I am able.

[rjh01]

Good luck and good work Kelly. Do nt forget he will be interviewing psychics so brief him on what questions he should be asking them. With luck he could expose psychics for what they really are.

[Mr. Stick]

Boy, we sure have some activity going in the skeptic vs psychics area.

Today I was contacted by a very big name network show who is working on a story in relation to psychics and missing people. (Not my blog series, but the topic in general) Let's hope they follow through. I will let you know more as I am able.

That's great. I hope you can influence them in the right direction. At the moment the media have a more skeptical approach to psychics than they've had in a long time, but remember they can present a story any which way they want, and they'll propably only use a fraction of what they record if you get on camera. On the other hand, I don't think they would have contacted you if their agenda was to promote the psychics.
Nice to see you back. :)

[Kelly]

Hi all, (and Mr. Stick)

I sense from the conversation with the woman from the show that they are leaning on the skeptic's side. I could be wrong, but she said nothing to lead me to believe they are sympathetic of the psychics.

I emailed her some links to my individual psychic blog stories and will be following up with her.

It would be fine if I did make it on the show, but the main thing is for them to do the story, period. (In the right light, of course.)

[Alareth]

I had forgotten about this thread. Serves me right for spending way too much time in the conspiracy section.

I've started another thread discussing the 3 part news story involving Nancy Myer and a local missing woman

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=75185

[Ketyk]

I read an article in a local newspaper today. It was about a missing child.

God knows that I will take the law into my own hands were I to find such evil.

The fact is that adults go missing, and psychics exploit the searchers of theses people.

Is this new? Did you not know? I can barely stand on the sidelines while such exploitations are real.

Will you?

[rjh01]

I read an article in a local newspaper today. It was about a missing child.

<snip> (To stop the mods doing it for me)
Will you?


Do not ever take the law in your own hands. That will make you even worse than the worst psychic. They in no way threaten the structure of society itself. However a few people who take the law into their own hands can. Their main victims will be the innocent. Not sure if I should make this post or just hit the little red triangle and mention rule 1 and 2 violation.

[Ketyk]

Point taken.

[Ketyk]

I better get some posts here by Monday.

[Kelly]

I had forgotten about this thread. Serves me right for spending way too much time in the conspiracy section.

I've started another thread discussing the 3 part news story involving Nancy Myer and a local missing woman

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=75185

I will try to get to look at this later this evening. I am quite sure that this woman was the one that Luke T. did an expose on for the blog series.

[Kelly]

Hello all,

In regards to the show I referenced above, it is a GO for filming. I will say more as I can. Filming will take place over the next 3 days. As far as I know, that would wrap their story. I will inquire the next time I speak to them as to when we might be looking at actual airtime.

Thanks, everyone for thinking of me and for all the help and support I've recieved from the good people here!

Kelly

[Luke T.]

I will try to get to look at this later this evening. I am quite sure that this woman was the one that Luke T. did an expose on for the blog series.

Yes, I did. (http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2006/03/32306-pmp-but-news-said-psychics-are.html) The very same Nancy Myer doing the same thing here that she appears to now be doing in Tennessee, with same type of media dupes. Even the same network, Fox!

[chillzero]

Just posting to bring attention to Kelly's latest campaign, which we can all help with.

Details are on the site: http://www.projectjason.org (http://www.projectjason.org/)

Email for information if you would like to volunteer some time:

Information@projectjason.org

or

radiowavesforjason@projectjason.org (http://www.writing.com/main/ecomm/BLOCKED::mailto:radiowavesforjason@projectjason.or g)

[Kelly]

Just posting to bring attention to Kelly's latest campaign, which we can all help with.

Details are on the site: http://www.projectjason.org (http://www.projectjason.org/)

Email for information if you would like to volunteer some time:

Information@projectjason.org

or

radiowavesforjason@projectjason.org (http://www.writing.com/main/ecomm/BLOCKED::mailto:radiowavesforjason@projectjason.or g)

Thanks, Chillzero!

Here is where you can find the campaign. I have it on the blog rather the organization site:

http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2007/03/radio-waves-for-jason.html

[Kelly]

Here's a brief update on this show:

The crew was at my home today from 8:30 until a little after 1. I feel it went very well. On Friday, they will be attempting to interview another involved party. Depending upon how that goes, the show could air anytime from next week to as long as 3 weeks out. After this interview tomorrow, I may be able to share more. I don't want to do anything to compromise this process.

It is very taxing to go through lengthy interviews and dredge up all of the pain of 5+ years of my situation, so I am rather drained. It does give me a boost, however, to know that having shared my story may help others in the future.

Kelly

[rjh01]

Good to read updates from you Kelly. If anything is broadcast please put it here. Please remember that not everyone is in USA and can get access to your media. Ditto to anyone who sees Kelly in a program.

[Kelly]

Just an update on this:

I found out today that the last interview for this segment did not get taped on Friday as scheduled. Another news story took precedence. This has been rescheduled for next Wednesday. Personally, that is ok with me because I am going on a speaking trip from March 23-27, and I don't want it to air when I am out of town, as there will probably be a media surge associated with it.

[Kelly]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

TECHNOLOGY LENDS A HAND TO THE THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES SEARCHING FOR MISSING LOVED ONES

Missing People Podcasts Highlight Individual Stories, Helpful Resources and Important Related Legislative Issues

OMAHA, NE—(March 17, 2007) Project Jason, a non-profit organization, announced today that it has created a partnership with the Missing People Podcast (MPP) to develop audio programming for missing people and the families who are urgently searching for them. The podcasts will feature a variety of subjects, including vital information regarding the circumstances surrounding a person’s disappearance and significant legislative efforts throughout the country that may impact the families.

Very few people would think of the number of missing persons in America as a crisis. The statistics, however, are sobering. In the United States alone, there are as many as 105,000 active missing person’s cases. Every year, tens of thousands of people vanish under suspicious circumstances. The number of missing persons can be estimated in the hundreds of thousands if viewed over a 20-year period.1

“I think it is very important to utilize whatever resources are available to help these families,” says Steve Bronnum, President of MPP, “We bring a true voice to the families of the missing and all those who care about them. Technology is helpful in so many ways and my greatest hope is to use it to bring some information to families desperate for news of their loved ones.”

The MPP programs will include a “News and Alerts” section focused on recent developments related to missing people and alerts about recently missing people. The “Portraits of the Missing” section provides profiles of specific missing persons. The “Interviews” segment is a dialogue with family members of the missing and experts in the field and, the “Programs” section will include voice talents telling the stories of the missing.

“This is a critical development in helping families locate their missing loved ones,” says Kelly Jolkowski, mother of Jason Jolkowski and founder of Project Jason, “As with any program that we support, our partnership with MPP is focused on the most important thing in all missing person cases – awareness.”

The MPP audio content is available for download or streaming on the internet with future plans for subscription podcasting and CD production. For more information, visit the website at missingpeoplepodcast.com.

1 Ritter,N. Missing Persons and Unidentified Remains: The Nation’s Silent Mass Disaster, NIJ Journal, NO.256, January 2007

About Project Jason

Project Jason was founded by the family of Jason Jolkowski after his disappearance on June 13, 2001. The nonprofit's mission is to create and increase public awareness of missing people through a variety of outreach and educational activities. Project Jason seeks to bring hope and assistance to families of the missing by providing resources and support. Project Jason is also responsible for presenting Jason’s Law, which passed on May 25, 2005. Jason’s Law allows for the creation of a Nebraska state missing person’s clearinghouse to gather and disseminate information about all missing persons. For more information, please visit Project Jason - Assistance for families of the missing (http://www.projectjason.org)

# # #

CONTACT:
Kelly Jolkowski
402-932-0095
Kelly.jolkowski(at sign)projectjason.org

You may be interested to know that the Psychics and Missing People series is in the process of being recorded as a dramatic audio series. You can listen to these segments on the Programs page on the podcast site.

[Moochie]

Good on you, Kelly.

Best wishes from Australia!

M.

[Ketyk]

::bumpity bump::

Kelly, do you have anyone covering the Boston area regarding radio interviews?

I know some people there, and watch the ratings. I'm sure I can get you a spot either mid-day or after the evening commute.

[Kelly]

::bumpity bump::

Kelly, do you have anyone covering the Boston area regarding radio interviews?

I know some people there, and watch the ratings. I'm sure I can get you a spot either mid-day or after the evening commute.

Hi Rabbit,

I haven't yet found a volunteer to do MA, so they don't even know about it at this time. I can let you know when we find one and they get going on it, though. THanks.

PS: Thanks, Moochie.

PSS: NO update on the status of the segment on the network show.

[Kelly]

I am away in the Carolinas on a speaking engagement/conference.

This isn't an update about psychics, but is about our work in general. It's an AP story, and so far has been picked up by several media sources, including the Boston Globe.

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/local/state/hc-25123019.apds.m0579.bc-ct-xgr--mar25,0,5545169.story?coll=hc-headlines-local-wire

Relatives of missing adults work to pass laws across nation

Associated Press

Published March 25 2007


HARTFORD, Conn. -- When Janice Smolinski's 31-year-old son Billy disappeared in 2004, there were no Amber Alerts, no urgent police investigations.

Police made the family wait three days to report the Waterbury man's disappearance because a neighbor believed he had left town voluntarily. They had to organize their own search parties and pressure police to fingerprint Billy's truck, his mother said.

When authorities did take the case, they lost or misplaced the family's DNA samples - including Billy's razor shavings - three times, Smolinski said.

Two-and-a-half years later, Billy Smolinski is nowhere to be found and his mother has joined a national grass-roots effort to lobby for more consistent laws for handling missing adult cases.

The group's Campaign for the Missing is lobbying this year in Connecticut, New Jersey, Florida, Oregon, New York, Missouri, Ohio and Indiana.

"Our system isn't working," said Janice Smolinski. "Unfortunately, when adults go missing, they don't really take it seriously."

Of more than 109,000 active records in the National Crime Information Center's Missing Person File as of Dec. 31, 2005, just under half involve adults.

But the National Center for Missing Adults, which handled more than 23,000 reports and helped nearly 25,000 family members in 2005, announced last year that federal budget cuts had forced it to close its Phoenix offices and attempt to relocate to a less expensive space.

Funding was cut to $148,000 last year for the center, which also helped families during Hurricane Katrina.

The National Center for Missing & Exploited Children, in comparison, typically receives more than $35 million a year from the federal government.

Police say they don't have the resources to focus attention on every case, and adults are allowed to disappear voluntarily.

"It's a free country and we've got to remember that," said West Hartford Police Chief James Strillacci, legislative chairman for the Connecticut Police Chiefs Association. "We have wanderlust in our blood and people get up and move once in a while."

Contrary to television crime shows, he said, the FBI rarely assists in missing adult cases.

"We cannot do for everybody that they would like us to do," he said. "We can only do what the law and our budgets allow."

The bills proposed by Campaign for the Missing touch on everything from banning cremation of unidentified remains to informing families about the clearinghouses for missing adults and children.

Each would prevent police from refusing to accept missing persons reports in most circumstances. They spell out data police must collect for a missing person, from eye color to blood type. They would also allow police to flag a missing person - such as someone with medical problems - as high risk, triggering more immediate action.

The families of missing adults also want police to enter all collected information, including DNA profiles, into applicable federal databases and provide timely case updates to family members.

They also want more publicity for missing adults.

The Amber Alert program, named for a 9-year-old girl who was kidnapped and killed, allows law enforcement and television and radio broadcasters to activate an urgent bulletin in the most serious child abduction cases.

But for adults, attention focuses largely on the bizarre or unusual, such as runaway bride Jennifer Wilbanks, who fled days before her planned 2005 wedding and made up a story about being kidnapped and sexually assaulted to cover the fact that she got cold feet and went to New Mexico.

When Drew Kesse's 24-year-old daughter, Jennifer, didn't show up for work in Orlando, Fla., on Jan. 24, 2006, a police officer suggested the attractive blonde financial analysts had gotten into a fight with her boyfriend and would return soon. More than a year has passed with no sign of her.

"There is absolutely no evidence. She has truly vanished," he said. "It's heartbreaking."

To drum up attention, the families of the missing have become amateur public relations consultants, creating web sites and organizing public events.

Kesse has flown banners over football games and printed playing cards with Jennifer's picture. Well-wishers have paid for eight billboards and posters in 24 bus shelters.

Kelly Jolkowski, whose Nebraska-based Project Jason created the Campaign for the Missing , has organized charity bike rides and appearances on the Montel Williams Show to generate interest in missing people, including her 19-year-old son Jason, who vanished from the family's Omaha driveway in 2001.

"The only thing you can do is get the story out there," she said. "One of these days you're going to hit the right person."

Though Omaha police did a complete investigation of her son's disappearance, Jolkowski said that's not the norm.

"When you have somebody disappear as an adult rather than a minor, it's an entirely different situation," she said. "There's no federal law that mandates them. Unless the state has passed this legislation, they are not mandated to do anything. They don't even have to take the case, period."

Jolkowski said families have told her of local police not aware of the federal DNA database. She has learned of unidentified bodies cremated or buried in unmarked graves without any DNA samples taken.

"It was a chore to get the police to take Molly's case seriously because she was 23," said Keri Dattilo, referring to her cousin Molly Dattilo, who disappeared July 6, 2004 in Indianapolis.

Keri Dattilo said it took six weeks before an investigation began in earnest.

"They could have tracked down more people in the very beginning with a fresh memory," she said. "I think they need to start taking these cases seriously in the beginning. They need to listen to the families."

New Jersey resident Jim Viola's wife, Patricia, disappeared six years ago, the day before Valentine's Day. He has since learned by trial and error what should be done when someone disappears. He didn't know for more than three years that a DNA profile of his wife could be created with a blood sample from his mother-in-law.

By pushing Campaign for the Missing legislation in his state, he hopes to save others from some of the heartache he's suffered.

"I'm basically trying to get New Jersey residents to write to their senator, to get them to understand that this law is for them," he said.

[Stellafane]

I wonder if the police's reluctance to pursue missing adult cases with the same vigor as missing children creates an opportunity for psychic predators? The victim's family might turn to a psychic in a desperate attempt to feel like they're doing something, however unlikely success might be.

[Kelly]

I wonder if the police's reluctance to pursue missing adult cases with the same vigor as missing children creates an opportunity for psychic predators? The victim's family might turn to a psychic in a desperate attempt to feel like they're doing something, however unlikely success might be.

Absolutetely, yes. Anytime there is decreased activity on a case, no matter the reason, the family becomes more desperate, turning to anyone for an answer, any type of answer.

[Ketyk]

One radio producer is going to run it by the hosts. He says he will give me a yes or no in the next day or 2.

[Kelly]

Wonderful....thanks!

I just arrived home from my speaking trip to find that the story I posted above made the national AP wire! I am very pleased about that.

If I owe you an email or other correspondense, please be patient as I catch up from this trip. Thank you!

[tony.d.]

Hi Kelly,
I may not be able to help you, or I may--depends on how much
info you and the other parents of missing kids etc. can give me.
There was a girl down here in Orlando FL. who is still(as at least to my knowledge) missing, named Jennifer Kesse. Before I got my P.I. license here
(Class "C" Individual, number 2600836(assigned at this time)
I did some independent work on the case(I had 4yrs in NYPD, and I helped
to find 2 missing kids by getting 4 seperate groups to work individually to find the boy in one case, and girl in the other)
And informed the FBI, FL. Senator Martinez, Orlando Police, etc. with my
findings.

I would like to help your group's families to at least spur local L.E.
to get off their duffs and work harder, and or get on the cases myself.
I would work only for expenses such as gasoline,food, other related costs
and NOT charge fee that I am permitted to charge.
e-mail me or PM me if this sounds interesting to you.
e-mail: a_digiacomo@yahoo.com

[chillzero]

Perhaps that information would have been better handled in a pm to Kelly.

[chillzero]

Perhaps that information would have been better handled in a pm to Kelly.

Sorry, but this has bugged me all day.

That info should not have been posted here, nor should it have been PM'd to Kelly as I initially suggested.

You said
I would like to help your group's families to at least spur local L.E. to get off their duffs and work harder,
- have you any idea about the wonderful efforts Kelly and her group have made already in getting progress made in these areas?

If you really want information about missing persons cases which you may be able to help with, there are loads of pointers to information on Kelly's website.

If you want to offer help, you should do so without appearing to be touting for business, especially from a voluntary organisation.

[Ketyk]

Chill, I agree, but Tony has only 24 posts, and without a doubt hasn't read the whole thread. Didn't see the unfortunate postings last year of WanderinWTF.

Obviously attempts to help are welcome, but talking about monetary compensation is rude and selfish.

So Tony, don't PM Kelly, she is busy enough helping people on her own dime. Any questions? PM me.

[Kelly]

Hi Friends,

Thanks for the info to Tony.

Officially, Project Jason has, at this time, decided NOT to refer PI's to families of the missing, even on a pro bono (or partially pro bono) basis. If we ever come to know one or more PI's long term, that could change. At this time, we do not know any PI's well enough to refer to them. We all know that some PI's are very good, and some are not. We have elected to make this policy consistent (as applicable) with our general referral policy as mentioned below.

Our practice is that any referrals will give to families will only consist of nonprofits we've worked with for a long period of time, and know personally on an in-depth level. We know that we can trust them completely to work with the families in a positive, constructive manner. We know that they have had (more than) adequate training in how to interact with such persons, so as not to cause additional hurt.

We work with the family of Jennifer Keese. Her father is one of our Campaign for the Missing volunteers. His involvement was mentioned in the article I posted on 3/25/07. When the time comes, all citizens of FL can certainly help with this by writing to their senators and letting them know the importantance of this law.

[tony.d.]

Hi All,
I truly do apologize for everything I may have unwittingly done to offend all of you

It seems that your clique of intelligent friendly skeptics is just to friendly and intelligent for the likes of me.

I DID NOT try to DRUM UP BUSINESS from Kelly OR her group

I DO NOT usually go on forums THIS IS MY FIRST TIME EVER So, I did not know HOW TO PM HER before This Morning.

I see now, that this is not the type of place for people like me who wish to
listen in on and maybe contribute to, the discussions and dialogues.

I have been insulted, accused, treated beyond rudely, and all because I
tired IN VAIN to
JOIN THIS COMMUNITY!
Did ANY OF YOU ever think
"Hey, maybe this guy is giving us his resume` and acomplishments because
he wants to know IF HE'S WORTHY OF BEING A MEMBER HERE?"

NO i guess YOU DON'T THINK THAT WAY!

It is too bad compassion, friendliness and comeraderie ARE NOT PART OF THE SKEPTIC DICTIONARY!

You can all go back to your insulting each other, flaming each other, insulting guests, etc.

I choose to go elsewhere!

[Ketyk]

If offended you, I apologize.

It is true that people tend to group into cliques. Please don't take the last few post in this/that thread as a referenum. Help is always needed, and if you can help, you are welcome.

I suppose I was in a bad mood today. Maybe even looking for a fight. Please don't let that stop you doing anything to help.

--Kevin

[chillzero]

Rabbit, I think it was me.

[Ketyk]

We all have regrets. Should I do this or not. Should I say this or keep quiet.

I hope Tony comes back. I posted, PMed and emailed him. He could be a great help.

Sometimes it's hard to enter a room full of stangers. To open up and be honest.

I just hope Tony realizes that what we were doing was being protective of a loved one.

Help can often come from the unexpected.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by tony.d.
Hi All,
My name is Tony and I'm new here.
Currently I am a newly licensed by Florida, Private Investigator who was previously a 4yr NYPD officer(before an injury etc. made me leave active service) and a casual(not doing it for monetary gain) para-normal/crypto-zoological investigator.

I never let those things come between me and potential Friends AND OR Lovers!
I Just sometimes wish that there were more Skeptic/Rationalist females
here in Florida that are SINGLE and UNATTACHED, LOL! All of them I've met so far are "blissfully" married/boyfriended up....

First, there's only room for one of us trolling heterosexuals on the east coast of the US and I was here first.

Second, if that sheep says anything about me she's a damn liar!

Come on, sheep can't rat you out unless a para-normal/crypto-zoological investigator gets involoved. (Sheep tell no tales). I thought he was joking about his occupation when he first posted.

We all have regrets. Should I do this or not. Should I say this or keep quiet.

I hope Tony comes back. I posted, PMed and emailed him. He could be a great help.

Sometimes it's hard to enter a room full of stangers. To open up and be honest.

I just hope Tony realizes that what we were doing was being protective of a loved one.

Help can often come from the unexpected.

Tony believes he can read the minds of animals. His help should be through e-mail (if at all) I am shocked how gently he was treated here.

[Kelly]

I have stated our policy in regards to Project Jason's use of PI's for the families we serve. Any additional comments about Tony would be inappropriate and should be PM'd to him or communicated in a different thread.

I appreciate Rabbit and Chillzero's protectiveness of my work and the organization. I receive emails from "coattail riders" on a regular basis, and in fact, have two today awaiting a response. This is not to say this applies to Tony, but I can see how one might leap to that conclusion, especially in that there are many PI's who do prey on the desperate.

[Kelly]

An update on the national TV segment that was recently filmed:

The last involved person was filmed, but there seems to be some related issues that need to be resolved first.

Sorry to be vague, but I can't say more at this time.

The "issues" could make it a bigger story, or it could make it fade away and never be shown.

Hopefully, it's the former.

Kelly

[Ketyk]

Cool, I can't wait to see/tape the segment.

Sorry, but right now I am reminded of a Mission Impossible line: "You've never seen me very upset."

I am getting close. Close to the edge of toleration.

I used to think psychics were entertainment. The fact is they are liars, and I will no longer sit back and watch as they make promises they do not keep.

No longer will I find them a stage act, when they hurt people I love. They have become the enemy.

[Kelly]

Irresponsible journalism:
http://www.newschannel9.com/articles/theresa_11323___article.html/colmore_parker.html

The reporter's email is linked at the top of the page for interested persons.

How could they show this piece? This woman gives no valuable information whatsoever. What is it that they are going to follow up on? :mad:

[Stellafane]

...How could they show this piece?

I know the question is rhetorical, but I'll supply the obvious answer anyway: because it panders to a popular delusion that a significant segment of their audience believes in. I think it's telling that I didn't find this piece all that bad, probably because I've been so jaded by my own local media. Sure, it's one-sided, without a single balancing word of skepticism. On the other hand, it's tame compared to the hyperventilating love my local newspaper heaped upon that bleached blonde bloodsucker Carla Baron.

[RSLancastr]

"I feel like she had been disturbed about somthing, was upset about something and I feel like it was financial and I think it was something to do with money that troubled her," she said.Oh, so it was financial and it was something to do with money!

:sigh:

[Kelly]

I sent the reporter an email. Let's see if he responds.

[Eos of the Eons]

You can rate the article. It's 9 in favor, and 7 unfavorable at the moment.

The seer is pointing a finger at the woman's ex. If that is wrong, then I hope he can sue her for her unsubstantiated accusations.

[Kelly]

You can rate the article. It's 9 in favor, and 7 unfavorable at the moment.

I didn't see that. I didn't scroll down far enough. Thanks, EOS.

[Orphia Nay]

Some good media coverage on the issue: Possibly Australia's highest-profiled scientist, Dr Karl (Winner of an IgNobel Prize (studying belly-button lint :D) and the Australian Skeptics' "Skeptic of the Year 2006-7" has written a piece on Psychic Sleuths (http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1883787.htm) in his weekly Science page, "Great Moments in Science".

I've always had an uncanny feeling about the use of psychics as detectives. For one thing, there are so many reports about psychics successfully helping law enforcement agencies solve crimes. For another thing, there are all those TV shows that involve psychic sleuths. But when I finally roused myself to look at this topic thoroughly, I found it was all froth and bubble.
...

[Ketyk]

::Bumpity bump::

I did distribute 300 more Personal ID Kits downtown yesterday. Not the official ones, the ones I made.

[rjh01]

After almost one year and three months is this thread dead? It is one of the biggest threads on this forum no matter how you measure it. Also one of the most educational. One that goes to the core of what this forum represents.

Edit. Kelly has gone AWOL from this forum as well.

[chillzero]

Kelly pops in when she can, but she is busy with the podcast series, on top of the other projects ongoing from Project Jason.

I believe she is still looking for volunteers, so if you can give her a little time, I know she will appreciate it.

[Ketyk]

Too funny.

Expand the the Chill avatar into a downloadable .jpg , then we can talk.

[Kelly]

Thanks for the bumps, support, and kits!

For those who follow what we're working on:

Dear Families, Supporters, and Friends of Project Jason,

We are pleased to announce that we have begun to provide law enforcement (LE) training by professional instructors, available in the form of audio files. These audio files can be accessed 24 hours a day on the website of our podcast partner, the Missing People Podcast. There is no charge to utilize this training.

We began our ongoing series with a 4-part program about DNA and CODIS as it pertains to solving missing persons cases. As you know, it is critical that LE make use of the available technologies and systems in place. Obtaining DNA samples from the family members of missing persons (or DNA from the missing persons themselves) in an attempt to match them to DNA from unidentified remains is one method of finding the answers about our missing loves ones, resolving cold cases, and solving crimes.

Our guests for the DNA training are Dr. Arthur Eisenberg and George Adams from the Center for Human Identification (CHI) at North Texas University. Dr. Eisenberg pioneered much of today's DNA testing protocol and is one of the world's leading DNA scientists. "First and foremost, there never should be a human remain, a skeletal remain of anyone's loved one that would be buried or cremated without the retention of a DNA sample for analysis. If those samples are in CODIS, there's always a chance." Dr. Eisenberg stated.

George Adams is the LE liaison for the CHI, has many years of law enforcement experience and regularly conducts training for the CHI. "Once you enter a sample into CODIS, you're not working within your jurisdiction, you're working within the jurisdictions of everyone entering samples into CODIS", said George Adams. "You are bringing in so much power into your investigation. It is explosive. If we can get everyone to do this, these samples will be matched, they will be made, and the sooner we match them the sooner the law enforcement can identify who the perpetrator is, and take him off the streets."

More detailed biographies along with the audio training files can be found on the Law Enforcement Briefing Link at http://www.missingpeoplepodcast.com Each audio segment is approximately 30 minutes long.


Topics covered in the training:

History and types of DNA

Best practices for obtaining DNA samples

CODIS and State Databases

Importance of Chain of Custody

CHI Services

The nationwide crisis and the need for these processes to become standard procedure

While this information will be helpful for the families of the missing and organizations which serve them, the main goal is to disseminate this information to LE. You may feel free to forward this email to all interested persons. For families of the missing and organizations which serve them, all 4 parts will be of interest, but there are several messages of hope and encouragement in the last section. Working together, we can accomplish so much. There is always hope!

If you have a missing loved one, and do not have either their DNA in CODIS or yours, Part II discusses steps for you, and then your LE, to take.

Quick technical tips for playing audio files:

Double-clicking on the audio file on the site will download it to your PC. It may begin to play nearly immediatetely, or may take several minutes to download, depending upon which audio players you have on your PC and how you have them set up.

You can also download the files to a MP-3 player or an IPOD.

Note: Persons using dial-up internet may encounter difficulties in playing the files. For additional audio file help, please email publisher@lumospub.com

Direct links to the audio files:

Part I: http://www.lumospub.com/images/Center_for_Human_ID_1_missingpeoplepodcast.mp3
Part II: http://www.lumospub.com/images/Center_for_Human_ID_2_missingpeoplepodcast.mp3
Part III: http://www.lumospub.com/images/Center_for_Human_ID_3_missingpeoplepodcast.mp3
Part IV: http://www.lumospub.com/images/Center_for_Human_ID_4_missingpeoplepodcast.mp3

Direct link for the biographies and CHI contact information for LE: http://www.lumospub.com/lawenforcementbriefing/dnaidentitylaboratory.html

We will add more LE training on a regular basis covering a variety of topics. Please check back and forward this notice to interested persons, including law enforcement.

Don't forget, families of the missing can share their stories on the podcast, so if you are interested, please let me know, and we can schedule an interview.

Kelly Jolkowski, Mother of Missing Jason Jolkowski
President and Founder,
Project Jason
http://www.projectjason.org
Read our Voice for the Missing Blog
http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

[Kelly]

I still occasionally get letters from psychics. Most of the time, they are not attempting to "help" me. I find it amazing that they don't research who they send their nonsense to. I quickly show them the blog link and the door. I tell them to go to LE if they're confident in their "powers". I am confident they don't.

As to the major TV show, I am beginning to think it will never happen. The psychic they confronted threatened me and threatened them. (off camera)

The last I heard, they were writing the script. I'll check back with them in a couple of weeks.

How disappointing, again. If it never airs, the psychic won. :(

[RSLancastr]

As to the major TV show, I am beginning to think it will never happen. The psychic they confronted threatened me and threatened them. (off camera)

The last I heard, they were writing the script. I'll check back with them in a couple of weeks.

How disappointing, again. If it never airs, the psychic won. :(Please do keep us posted on this, Kelly.

[rjh01]

Maybe you can do something to encourage the TV station to do the broadcast and include the threats to show what sort of person he is. Could make the show even better with the threats - 'The show the psychics did not to be shown.'

What have you done about the threats?

Edit - Glad you are back in this thread making long posts.

[catbasket]

For those who follow what we're working on: <snip>
:clap:
If only the psychics would spend their time doing something so useful.

[Kelly]

Thanks all. I will keep you posted.

I have done nothing about the threats.

This show is a very big show. They will do what they're going to do. I have discussed this with them and even sent them the transcript of the phone call with this person. (done by memory)

[TruthBeTold]

Kelly,
I'm new here but I just had to tell you that my heart goes out to you and I will keep you in my daily thoughts forever.
Alot of people walk around blissfully never realizing that they're just as vulnerable as the people they hear about on the news and meet through forums such as this.
As a mother of a beautiful, confident teenage daughter, I work diligently against the rolling eyes and the claims that I'm being over-protective knowing that, at times, there may be little I can do if there is a predator around, but I will never stop trying to protect her.
She will read your site and I will do all I can do including the things you mention on your site.

TruthBeTold

[Miss Anthrope]

Kelly, I just wanted to chime in after catching up and tell you again what an amazing person you are.

[Kelly]

Thanks to both!

Everyone thinks something like this could never happen to us. Who could imagine such a thing? It's good if it makes someone stop for a moment, especially to consider personal safety issues.

[TruthBeTold]

When you consider the frequency that it happens, it's staggering and heartbreaking.
If there's ever anything I can do to help on the east coast, PM me Kelly.

[Miss Anthrope]

Thanks to both!

Everyone thinks something like this could never happen to us. Who could imagine such a thing? It's good if it makes someone stop for a moment, especially to consider personal safety issues.

As a mother, it hurts unbearably simply to consider it. You have served as a reminder to continually drill safety issues into my kids (not to mention myself). That is why I applaud you so much. I cannot even fathom being able to function when one has a missing child, yet so many like you try to help--not just yourselves, but anyone going through such a nightmare.

At this point, with my kids still young, all I can do is teach about strangers and even friends, repeatedly tell them to scream and fight. My son is barely three and he can say his first and last name, as well as every member of his family. He knows the name of the street he lives on. Aside from that, the notion of raising them in lockdown seems comforting sometimes:( But in reality, I know street smarts are the way to go. It's a scary world, and I think a missing child of any age is a horrifying thing. The more tools, the more knowledge--the better.

Hugs and thanks to you.

[TruthBeTold]

My daughter has no issue with going to movies by herself and such.
We don't let her but she has no issue with that sort of thing.

I made her watch the news yesterday of that girl in Kansas who was taken in broad daylight in a Target parking lot.
I pray that the other family who lost their daughter a month ago in the same area finds some closure...if you can call it that.

When my daughter was young, I used my own experience as an abused child to determine how she would be raised. She never had a babysitter, never in harms way.
As she got a little older I vaguely described to her why I am so protective of her and she was very gracious at the sacrifices I made to ensure she didn't go through what I did.
But, as she gets older and more independent, there's little I can do but try my best to remind her and my husband how being confident is awesome, but one also must be wise to the world that we live in.

[Kelly]

Sorry for the "post and run", but things are pretty nutty over here.

USA TODAY
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-10-unidentified-remains_N.htm

06/10/06

Bills would require DNA help in missing person cases

SALEM, Ore. — Their faces were everywhere — first on fliers passed out in their hometown, then on billboards and even on the cover of People Magazine and in constant rotation on CNN.

After months of searching, the bodies of Ashley Pond and Miranda Gaddis, classmates and fellow dance squad members from Oregon City, were found in August 2002, buried in a sadistic neighbor's backyard. They would have graduated from high school this month.

Now their mothers have joined with other families across the nation who don't know if spouses and siblings are dead or alive to press for passage of laws requiring police to expand their searches in missing person cases.

Their proposal — which is under consideration by legislators in Oregon, Connecticut, Indiana and New Jersey — centers on the nearly 50,000 unidentified bodies that are held at morgues across the country while an estimated 105,000 missing persons cases remain open.

Under the bill, police would be directed to send DNA samples from bodies that remain unidentified after 30 days to a central laboratory, where they'd be entered into a national database for comparison to missing-persons cases. Families could submit their own DNA samples for loved ones who have been missing for more than a month.

Similar legislation is already in place in Colorado, Washington state and the District of Columbia, said Kelly Jolkowski, one of the founders of the Campaign for the Missing, whose 19-year-old son Jason disappeared without a trace six years ago from their home in Nebraska. Future campaigns are being organized in Missouri, New York, Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, she said.

"How do I know some body in some morgue somewhere isn't my son, and they just didn't get the DNA from his body, so I will never know?" Jolkowski asked. "Families can go for years and maybe forever without an answer because these processes are not in place, and they should be."

Lending her name to the bill has made some painful memories flood back, said Lori Pond. In the earliest days of her daughter's disappearance, police thought 12-year-old Ashley Pond might be a runaway and she had to print her own fliers and hand them out on the streets of their hometown.

"There are times it brings up the loss of my daughter, but I am hoping for good to come out of all of this," Pond said.

Michelle Duffy, mother of 13-year-old Miranda Gaddis, said that in one way she and Pond were lucky, since their daughters' cases drew the national spotlight and, when the girls' bodies were found, positive identification took less than 24 hours.

Hundreds of other families never get the same kind of resolution, she said.

"If the kids wouldn't have disappeared in the same way, from the same place, no one would have cared," Duffy said. "If it weren't for Miranda disappearing, you never would have heard Ashley's name and that's sad."

Without identification, Jolkowski said, bodies may be buried in pauper's graves, or cremated, lost to a family forever.

[rjh01]

Congratulations on being mentioned in the news. The bill would benefit many people. Not to mention the Government in being able to properly dispose of many bodies and clear up many missing person cases.

[RSLancastr]

I hope it passes, Kelly.

It brings to mind the Holly Krewson case. A DNA database would have identified Holly's body six years earlier than it was.

[Miss Anthrope]

Once again, well done Kelly. I am pleased to know my state has already adopted a measure like this. However, it would be better if it were national. I hope they pass.

[Kelly]

Another post and run..... I have a good excuse!

Hello,

For all Campaign for Missing Volunteers and other interested persons:

Media Alert: CNN American Morning for Wednesday, June 13, 2007, 8:40AM EST

Wednesday morning our friends Doug and Mary Lyall from the Center for Hope in central NY will be appearing live on the CNN morning show, American Morning. They are representing Project Jason's Campaign for the Missing and will be discussing DNA as it relates to the campaign legislation and missing persons. I was unable to go because of our planned event here for Jason's 6 year missing date.

I am pleased for this opportunity to further our cause and educate not only the public, but the need-to-know; LE, families of the missing, and medical examiners and coroners. At the same time, it will bring some awareness for the Lyall's missing daugher, Suzanne, and our missing son, Jason.

Kelly Jolkowski, Mother of Missing Jason Jolkowski
President and Founder,
Project Jason
http://www.projectjason.org
Read our Voice for the Missing Blog
http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

[Questioninggeller]

As to the major TV show, I am beginning to think it will never happen. The psychic they confronted threatened me and threatened them. (off camera)

The last I heard, they were writing the script. I'll check back with them in a couple of weeks.


One would think that would be reason to air it.

[Stellafane]

I share the opinion of many that this thread (along with the work of Robert Lancaster) ranks among the more important in all the JREF forums, and deserves to be kept visible and current. So I’m adding my own thoughts here. Nothing new really, it’s all stuff others have already expressed many times over. But if nothing else, it has bump value.

For me, this thread and the person behind it are all about courage. As a parent, the idea of my daughter or son going missing is literally the worst thing I can conceive. I cannot even stand to think about it for more that a few seconds before I have to do something to distract myself -- hum a song or pick up a book or go get something to eat. I don’t even have the guts to imagine it, never mind actually living it. I don’t think I could function under those circumstances, and my most fervent hope is that I never have to find out whether or not I can.

There’s another kind of courage here, one that I’ve briefly glimpsed in a small way on my own. Some time ago, psychic Carla Baron got involved in a nearby missing persons case. My local newspaper published two glowing front-page articles about it. Of course, she was no help whatsoever. So about a year later, I wrote a Letter to the Editor asking whether they would print a follow-up article, detailing Baron’s failure and mentioning how psychic predators prey on grieving victims. I later learned that the family of the missing women was upset by my letter. It depressed me to think that I may have caused these poor people further pain, and a part of me wished I had never written my letter. Then I thought of Kelly, who must face this situation all the time, criticism and resistance from those she is seeking to protect. Can you imagine how that feels? And yet she finds the strength to carry on, because she knows it is the right thing to do.

And there’s one more type of courage, one that speaks of character. My little incident left me with a deep-seating, abiding dislike for Carla Baron. Yet the injuries heaped upon Kelly by psychics are vast orders of magnitude beyond what I will ever experience. How does she avoid being consumed by sheer disgust and hatred?

I ask anyone who might be new to this thread to take a moment and consider Kelly’s situation. Every day she lives with the ongoing reality of a parent’s worst nightmare. She must deal with criticism from within the ranks of the community for whom she otherwise feels the closest affinity. And she must do all this without succumbing to hating the people who have attempted to prey on her, who magnify her pain, who drive a wedge between her and the people she cares most deeply about. And yet she has somehow turned all that around and channeled it into something positive that helps hundreds, maybe thousands of people. Quite literally, I do not know how she does it.

So if there’s anything someone like me can do or say to offer Kelly some small shred of help and encouragement, anything at all that can help her carry on for another day or hour or even a minute, then I feel ennobled.

[chillzero]

nominated.
Stellafane, I couldn't agree more, and in my conversations with Kelly outside the forum, I am regularly amazed by her demeanour and fairness; her calm and balance. She works tirelessly on her mission, and has never seemed to allow the effort to bring her down or make her bitter.

[Kelly]

Sorry I have been AWOL again. June is always a tough month, and more so this year with all the activities.

I don't know what happened to the Lyall's interview. CNN has not updated transcipts for that show since the 19th.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ltm.html I suspect they have placed it as a "we'll show it when we show it" situation. This will not be the first time this has happened. We were still pleased to have the AP article about our campaign picked up by numerous national media, including USA Today, LA Times, Washington Post and more.

Monday and Tuesday I will be in San Diego as day two keynote for the National Sex Offender Management conference. Marc Klaas and Mark Lunsford are on day one. It should be interesting, as this will be my first presentation at a non-missing people related conference. The original speech was to be about sex offender legislation, but I told them that was not my forte and they agreed to have me speak about our campaign. (Long story, but the original speaker had to cancel and I was recommended to cover.)

On Thursday, I have a live interview at 12:38PST on some internet-based show with an award winning journalist named Tony Seton. (the name of the show escapes me right now)

Friday, in Oregon, the bill we push for in our Campaign for the Missing was signed into law by the governor. I think that was a fantastic birthday present.

I started a new series on my blog about the gruesome discovery of a body found in CA that we were told was most likely our son. The series chronicles our waiting for the DNA results to determine if it was indeed our son, and how the system doesn't work as it should.
http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2007/06/62107-untold-story-awaiting-dna.html

Anyway, that's my update for those interested.

Be back in a minute...............

[Kelly]

I share the opinion of many that this thread (along with the work of Robert Lancaster) ranks among the more important in all the JREF forums, and deserves to be kept visible and current. So I’m adding my own thoughts here. Nothing new really, it’s all stuff others have already expressed many times over. But if nothing else, it has bump value.

For me, this thread and the person behind it are all about courage. As a parent, the idea of my daughter or son going missing is literally the worst thing I can conceive. I cannot even stand to think about it for more that a few seconds before I have to do something to distract myself -- hum a song or pick up a book or go get something to eat. I don’t even have the guts to imagine it, never mind actually living it. I don’t think I could function under those circumstances, and my most fervent hope is that I never have to find out whether or not I can.

There’s another kind of courage here, one that I’ve briefly glimpsed in a small way on my own. Some time ago, psychic Carla Baron got involved in a nearby missing persons case. My local newspaper published two glowing front-page articles about it. Of course, she was no help whatsoever. So about a year later, I wrote a Letter to the Editor asking whether they would print a follow-up article, detailing Baron’s failure and mentioning how psychic predators prey on grieving victims. I later learned that the family of the missing women was upset by my letter. It depressed me to think that I may have caused these poor people further pain, and a part of me wished I had never written my letter. Then I thought of Kelly, who must face this situation all the time, criticism and resistance from those she is seeking to protect. Can you imagine how that feels? And yet she finds the strength to carry on, because she knows it is the right thing to do.

And there’s one more type of courage, one that speaks of character. My little incident left me with a deep-seating, abiding dislike for Carla Baron. Yet the injuries heaped upon Kelly by psychics are vast orders of magnitude beyond what I will ever experience. How does she avoid being consumed by sheer disgust and hatred?

I ask anyone who might be new to this thread to take a moment and consider Kelly’s situation. Every day she lives with the ongoing reality of a parent’s worst nightmare. She must deal with criticism from within the ranks of the community for whom she otherwise feels the closest affinity. And she must do all this without succumbing to hating the people who have attempted to prey on her, who magnify her pain, who drive a wedge between her and the people she cares most deeply about. And yet she has somehow turned all that around and channeled it into something positive that helps hundreds, maybe thousands of people. Quite literally, I do not know how she does it.

So if there’s anything someone like me can do or say to offer Kelly some small shred of help and encouragement, anything at all that can help her carry on for another day or hour or even a minute, then I feel ennobled.

Stellafane,

I was quite moved by your post. So much, in fact, that I had tears in my eyes. I could not even respond at that point, because there were no words adequate, and there still aren't, to express my thanks.

I see people read my blog and make an automatic assumption that I hate these pyschics, but you see and understand that I do not. I disdain what they do, but not them personally. Who knows how many of them are suffering from a mental illness vs the ones who know darn well they are frauds, but yet keep doing it for fame, money, or whatever reason?

I am thankful that I am of sound mind, despite what has happened to me, and that I can still step back and assess a situation using common sense. It can be difficult to leave the emotion out of it, but we must.

I really don't feel that I have any more courage or am any better than the next person. I have just chosen to do what appeared to be the only choice, to me.

Yes, it is difficult that we have lost some support because of our stance, but I know we are doing the right thing. I am saddened on a daily basis to see accounts of families going the psychic route instead of trusting in the tried and TRUE methods of good investigation and awareness campaigns.

We continually strive to try to reach the masses and help them understand what we go through, even though they don't, thankfully, have to experience this horror themselves. This is why I share the darkest of emotions and fears. How else can we move others to want to help in whatever way they are able?

It is no secret that missing persons assistance organizations (more so the ones that service missing adults) receive little public support. We have gone literally months at a time without a single donation. I greatly dislike bringing this up, but I must in order for us to survive. Stellafane mentioned help, and that is one way.

Anyway, back to his post. I know who you speak of in respect to the family who thinks they are being helped by Carla Baron. I recently engaged in dialog with their advocate, and she still won't concede that CB has been no help at all. The family, apparently, feels some need to hang on to this tattered shred of what they see as hope. They become defensive when someone tries to show them it is not hope at all.

I will still keep trying, however, to reach families like them in the hope that they can transfer their desperation to something that could bear fruit and provide them with real answers. It seems like there is a never-ending supply of new families and new perpertrators, but with the help of the wonderful people here, we can work together to help them make sense of the senseless, even in the face of such great pain.

Thank you all for your friendship and support!

Kelly

[Eire]

Hi folks, I'm chiming in late, so sorry. This may sound like a pro-psychic post at first, please bear with me, I assure you all it isn't.

Several years ago, I started searching for a friend of mine I hadn't seen in years. My search took me to one of the one places nobody ever wants to find a friend or loved one, The Doe Network. I found out my friend had been missing for several years and I was absolutely devastated. She's missing from Florida, I live in Pennsylvania, there wasn't much looking I could really do, but I got the word out among mutual friends and classmates. I called LE in Florida, but got no response. I felt so helpless that I thought the only thing I could logically do was consult a psychic (feel free to hit me on the head right about here). I went to her, she didn't seek me out like these plague of locust psychics that seem to pop out of the woodwork every time somebody goes missing. I paid her $25, which is nowhere near the sums many people pay for crappy "advice", so I guess I'm lucky. This woman told me that my friend was dead, killed by a man she knew and they'd never find her body. She also told me not to worry because he'd be caught "trying to hurt somebody else" and that he'd be put away, but he'd never admit to killing my friend. Of course, I was more devastated by hearing that my friend died at the hands of someone she knew and that they'd never find the body, but I made my peace with it. A few weeks later, I plugged my friend's name into Google and up popped an article about my friend's ex-fiancee and his alleged murder of his new girlfriend. The article said he was a prime suspect in the death of my friend, but he wasn't talking. Well, I thought this psychic chick really knew something. After all, my friend's story was not widely publicized even in Florida much less Pennsylvania. She didn't know my friend's name because I hadn't told her and the reading was a spur of the moment thing not a pre-arranged appointment. She just had to be the real deal right? Wrong. It's taken me years and lots of pain to realize the woman made a lucky guess. My friend was missing for years, of course she's most likely deceased. Women are often killed by someone close to them, a lover or husband for example. A man who would kill or abuse one girlfriend or wife won't likely stop being an abuser. Of course, he may get caught in the future. Only the dumbest of them will confess to other killings when there's no body or no evidence. I did mention Florida to the psychic, so of course she said the body wouldn't be found. Alligators and other meat-eaters are plentiful there, so is swamp land. It was just a string of lucky guesses, no mystical power, no friend talking to her from the great beyond, no link to the other side, nothing. I only wasted $25 and about 20 minutes of my time. I'm lucky. Others have wasted much more by way of valuable time, energy they can't spare and the emotional turmoil these people put them through. My friend's family consulted a psychic too. She told them to look under a bridge in a neighboring town (yep, the water/bridge thing again) Guess what? Her body was not located. She's still missing and nobody is any closer to finding her.

Sorry, I felt a rant coming on this morning. Kelly, I've admired you greatly for some time now. I'm a constant reader of WebSleuths although I can't post there. You are an inspiration to many.

[Rodney]

. . . This woman told me that my friend was dead, killed by a man she knew and they'd never find her body. She also told me not to worry because he'd be caught "trying to hurt somebody else" and that he'd be put away, but he'd never admit to killing my friend . . . A few weeks later, I plugged my friend's name into Google and up popped an article about my friend's ex-fiancee and his alleged murder of his new girlfriend. The article said he was a prime suspect in the death of my friend, but he wasn't talking . . . She's still missing and nobody is any closer to finding her.
So was the psychic to whom you paid $25 wrong about any aspect of this case?

[Roadtoad]

So was the psychic to whom you paid $25 wrong about any aspect of this case?

You need to read the rest of what Eire said. Much of what the psychic had to say could have been stated by any member of law enforcement, for free. The psychic wasn't wrong, just obvious.

[Eire]

Thank you, Roadtoad. That was my point. The only thing we would be able to verify requires a body. She said my friend is in the Everglades where are 300 miles from where she disappeared give or take. If she's ever found, we'll know if she was right on that one or not.

And don't get me wrong, I willingly paid her and it wasn't a fortune. I'm not complaining about the money I spent even though reading what I wrote may give that impression. I'm just saying what Roadtoad said, any member of Law Enforcement could have told me the same.

[Rodney]

Thank you, Roadtoad. That was my point. The only thing we would be able to verify requires a body. She said my friend is in the Everglades where are 300 miles from where she disappeared give or take. If she's ever found, we'll know if she was right on that one or not.

And don't get me wrong, I willingly paid her and it wasn't a fortune. I'm not complaining about the money I spent even though reading what I wrote may give that impression. I'm just saying what Roadtoad said, any member of Law Enforcement could have told me the same.
According to your account, the psychic told you: (1) your friend is dead; (2) her body would never be found; (3) she was killed by a man she knew; (4) he would be caught trying to hurt somebody else; and (5) he would never confess to killing your friend. I would submit to you that Law Enforcement would not have told you any of those things. Further, the facts that -- (a) her former fiance is now a suspect in not only her disappearance, but a new girlfriend's murder; (b) he is not talking about his former fiancee's disappearance; and (c) her body has not been found -- does nothing to suggest that the psychic was wrong about anything. Sure, she MAY have gotten lucky and perhaps one day at least one aspect of what she told you MAY be proven wrong, but so far it looks to me as if your $25 was well-spent.

[Eire]

Well then, I suppose you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion on what money well spent is.

My contention is and always will be that the woman made some lucky guesses but those don't require any special powers at all. Most law enforcement officers I know would have come to the same conclusions based on statistics and what they know about missing adult women. That doesn't make them psychic and they don't charge for it. Not $25 or $700 and hour like some. I got off very light in the money department, no doubt. Had she given us something concrete like, oh I don't know, a location where the body may be or even where part of the body was or where evidence could be located or even a name, I'd say she was pretty good. She didn't. It's not difficult to say some man she knew killed her, providing a name is much more difficult. She didn't and yes, I did ask. And yes, left that out originally, I did ask for a name, she gave me no name, not even an initial. In fact, several in law enforcement have told me the same thing and they aren't psychic. They also have no intimate knowledge of the case seeing as it happened in a state where I don't live. So, yes, law enforcement could have told me the same things based on years of experience with such things. And did you miss the part where another psychic told her family to look under a bridge? Her body wasn't there. So, we had one saying it'll never be found and one saying look under a bridge. Maybe mine was right, I just don't happen to believe it.

I mean no disrespect here, but if you're contending that psychics are the real deal and this lady was talented, I'll politely disagree. If you're saying I got off light as opposed to most people with far worse stories than my own, I'll certainly agree. Mine is nothing compared to Kelly's or the stories of some others. I won't change my mind on my view of psychics. They've never found anybody, they've never solved a case and they never will. They have taken money from the desperate, though. I was desperate, many people were desperate. That's why we turned to psychics in the first place.

[Rodney]

Well then, I suppose you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion on what money well spent is.

My contention is and always will be that the woman made some lucky guesses but those don't require any special powers at all. Most law enforcement officers I know would have come to the same conclusions based on statistics and what they know about missing adult women. That doesn't make them psychic and they don't charge for it. Not $25 or $700 and hour like some. I got off very light in the money department, no doubt. Had she given us something concrete like, oh I don't know, a location where the body may be or even where part of the body was or where evidence could be located or even a name, I'd say she was pretty good. She didn't. It's not difficult to say some man she knew killed her, providing a name is much more difficult. She didn't and yes, I did ask. And yes, left that out originally, I did ask for a name, she gave me no name, not even an initial. In fact, several in law enforcement have told me the same thing and they aren't psychic. They also have no intimate knowledge of the case seeing as it happened in a state where I don't live. So, yes, law enforcement could have told me the same things based on years of experience with such things.
Do you really think they would have told you that her body would never be found, the perpetrator would be caught trying to hurt somebody else, and he would never confess to killing her?

And did you miss the part where another psychic told her family to look under a bridge? Her body wasn't there. So, we had one saying it'll never be found and one saying look under a bridge. Maybe mine was right, I just don't happen to believe it.
No one that I know of is arguing that all psychics are accurate. The relevant question is: Are any psychics accurate?

I mean no disrespect here, but if you're contending that psychics are the real deal and this lady was talented, I'll politely disagree. If you're saying I got off light as opposed to most people with far worse stories than my own, I'll certainly agree. Mine is nothing compared to Kelly's or the stories of some others. I won't change my mind on my view of psychics. They've never found anybody, they've never solved a case and they never will. They have taken money from the desperate, though. I was desperate, many people were desperate. That's why we turned to psychics in the first place.
A number of people would differ with you regarding the accuracy of certain psychics. For example, retired New Jersey detective and polygraph expert Jerry Lewis states:

"In 1995 I obtained a copy of Psychic Detective written by Nancy Orlen Weber. I was amazed to read about her involvement in many cases I had worked. I was even more impressed by her accuracy. She gave police specific, relevant, and concrete information early on in investigations that proved to be absolutely correct! I wondered why I had not heard of her impressions while I was involved in testing suspects in the case. But I realized that often her conclusions did not mesh with police theories. She did all she could but she could not make people believe her. However, in each case, her information proved to be entirely correct. Since I had worked on these cases I knew all of the police officers mentioned in her book. So I began calling them to see if this was all true. Not only did all of the officers vouch for the information in the book, they told me that Nancy actually did more in some cases than she had related." See http://www.nancyorlenweber.com/References.html

[Roadtoad]

Rodney, you're ignoring the point. Any law enforcement official could have told Eire everything the psychic told her. The money was NOT well spent. It was scammed from Eire. The point is that had Eire taken the time to talk to a cop, not only would have Eire saved money, but the extremely remote possibility exists that the bf might not have had the opportunity to kill again. Yes, law enforcement WOULD have told her all of those things, particularly since those very same things are known by much of the general public, partly due to the proliferation of true crime books and some pretty good detective novels. Perhaps if you might read a few books, such as Mindhunter, or even a good detective novel once in a while, you might have figured this out.

[Rodney]

Rodney, you're ignoring the point. Any law enforcement official could have told Eire everything the psychic told her. The money was NOT well spent. It was scammed from Eire. The point is that had Eire taken the time to talk to a cop, not only would have Eire saved money, but the extremely remote possibility exists that the bf might not have had the opportunity to kill again. Yes, law enforcement WOULD have told her all of those things, particularly since those very same things are known by much of the general public, partly due to the proliferation of true crime books and some pretty good detective novels. Perhaps if you might read a few books, such as Mindhunter, or even a good detective novel once in a while, you might have figured this out.
I noted five things that Eire's account says the psychic told her that, in my opinion, a law enforcement official would not have told her. If I'm wrong, please give me some statistics; e.g., the percentage of young women who disappear, are presumed dead, but whose bodies are never found.

[chillzero]

Rodney, I don't think this is the correct thread to be defending psychics. If you wish to pursue this conversation I would politely suggest that a new thread might be a better idea.

[tsg]

Sure, she MAY have gotten lucky and perhaps one day at least one aspect of what she told you MAY be proven wrong, but so far it looks to me as if your $25 was well-spent.

Yes, in the same way that spending $25 for a psychic to tell you the next flip of a coin will be "heads" is well spent because it did come up heads. Of course, if it came up tails we wouldn't be hearing from you, would we.

Yet more cherry-picking of data.....

[Roadtoad]

Enough of the derail. This thread does not need this sort of crap. The new thread is here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2747855#post2747855)

[Kelly]

Hello and thanks, friends for alerting me to the activity here. It's been quite busy the last few weeks, so I hadn't had a chance to stop in. I'm in the process of getting ready to roll out a new family member benefit, so I'm immersed in that.

Thanks, Eire, for sharing your story and for your kind comments. Welcome to the forum too! I tried my best on WS to convince some other posters that they are not right about psychics. Perhaps, though, some lurker did gain a new understanding.

Thanks, Roadtoad for getting the train back on the tracks!

Rodney, all, I am quite sure there are no sure stats about this situation, however, I have run into it numerous times. In fact, where I live, we just completed a murder trial that sounds just like the psychic's story. Murders without a body are a pretty popular storyline right now. I will post this on the new thread.

End Derail

[Kelly]

I hope no one minds that I post occasional organization updates on here. I know there are several members who are interested in what we do outside of the psychic-related issues. I'm pretty pleased with this one, as I am quite sure no one else is offering such a benefit.

Here's the latest:

Healing Harbor: A Free Counseling Service offered by Project Jason

Project Jason is pleased to announce the opening of Healing Harbor.

Healing Harbor is a free service provided to families of the missing by nonprofit organization Project Jason and Duane Bowers, LPC.

Families of the missing suffer a unique tragedy, one with which many professional counselors do not have the training or experience to be able to properly service their clients. In addition, many families do not have the financial means to seek professional counseling. Duane is one of the nation’s most qualified counselors in regards to issues faced by these families, and we are honored to have him with us to answer your questions.

Healing Harbor can provide answers and assistance on a variety of emotional issues that effect family members of missing persons. This assistance may provide the boost needed for that family member to deal with and adapt to the situation without seeking counseling. (Please keep in mind that Healing Harbor should not be viewed as a substitute for individual, private counseling if needed.)

Families of the missing who elect to participate in Healing Harbor are invited to post their question to Duane in our private forum area. These questions may cover any topic of interest in respect to emotional issues that relate to having a missing person in their life.

If you are a family member of a missing person, and would like to take advantage of this service, please register at our forum, located at http://www.projectjason.org/dpforum/forum.php

After registration, simply follow the instructions in the verification email you will receive, and then let us know that you have registered, so we can grant permissions for you to enter the special forum area. Email us with your username, the name of the missing loved one, and your relationship to them. After verification, we’ll open up access to Healing Harbor to you.

The Healing Harbor forum is: http://projectjason.org/dpforum/forum_display.php?id=25
Posting Guidelines, FAQ's, and other pertinent information: http://projectjason.org/dpforum/forum_display.php?id=26
The Waiting List and Questions area: http://projectjason.org/dpforum/forum_display.php?id=27

We hope that you will find healing in our safe harbor.

With Hope for all of our Missing Loved Ones,

Kelly Jolkowski, Mother of Missing Jason Jolkowski
President and Founder,
Project Jason
http://www.projectjason.org
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http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

[Stellafane]

Nothing to say really, just hate seeing this thread on anything but the first page of this forum.

If I'm breaking some rule here let me know and I'll stop.