When is reality best ignored?

[American]

OK, let's make this a discussion topic:


DO WE NEED TO KNOW THE UGLY TRUTH, OR DO CONTRARY ILLUSIONS COUNT FOR MUCH?

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Originally posted by American
OK, let's make this a discussion topic:


DO WE NEED TO KNOW THE UGLY TRUTH, OR DO CONTRARY ILLUSIONS COUNT FOR MUCH?

When the probability of supervivence is greather if you believe the illusion.

[Vorticity]

What? Did someone just say something?

[American]

Originally posted by Vorticity
What? Did someone just say something?

Nope! This is a long-time problem I have trouble dealing with. It bugs me to no end.

If you need examples, there are plenty. Do you tell a dying man that there's no heaven? Do you tell a retard that they're stupid? Your girlfriend that she's ugly?

Your husband that you married him for money? Your wife that you married her for sex?

Issues of class and race.

Things that we all have to cope with and put aside if we want to live well.


I'm too honest at times, and it causes problems. I try to pass it off as humor, but deep down I feel it's an issue about good and evil, and doing the right thing. Maybe the right thing is to live with a lie, and that's what I need to accept if I'm ever going to function better. But I'm not sure either way, so that's why I'm asking all of you what you think.

[American]

Somone pointed it out to me in Banter. Part of me is a real jerk. I seem to enjoy preying on people's weakness.

But that's not accurate; in fact it's very cynical.

Truth is, I'm deeply hurt and offended by the things people hide from me. Mostly things people are ashamed of (like how many d*cks she sucked before she kissed me with that same mouth), but also matters that we just don't want to deal with because we're too thoughtless and inconsiderate.

Or maybe because we ARE thoughtful and considerate, we don't want to upset the people we care about by repeating the painful details.

I want details. I don't know why, but I want them madly.

[The Fool]

Maybe sometimes the truth is best broken gently?

[scribble]

Originally posted by American
Do you tell a dying man that there's no heaven?


Do you know that there's no Heaven?

Do you tell a retard that they're stupid?

Do you figure they might not know it already?

Your girlfriend that she's ugly?

All my girlfriends have been hot rockin' babes.

Your husband that you married him for money?

What, like if that was the case, it wouldn't be obvious?

Your wife that you married her for sex?

You don't have to get married to have sex. In fact most seem to have less after marriage.

I'm too honest at times, and it causes problems. I try to pass it off as humor, but deep down I feel it's an issue about good and evil, and doing the right thing. Maybe the right thing is to live with a lie, and that's what I need to accept if I'm ever going to function better. But I'm not sure either way, so that's why I'm asking all of you what you think. [/B]

Honesty's great. The examples you listed are awful. I can't see debating any of them, really.

[scribble]

Originally posted by American
Truth is, I'm deeply hurt and offended by the things people hide from me. Mostly things people are ashamed of (like how many d*cks she sucked before she kissed me with that same mouth),

Sheesh, you sound like you get caught up in some silly stuff.

If she's sucked too many d**ks for you, send her my way. I like a girl who knows what she's doing.

If she's sucked too few d**ks for you, send her my way. I like a chance to teach a girl something.

If she sucks d**ks at all, send her my way -- I don't need to even know how many. I mean, what the f**k, talk about looking a gift whores in the mouth...

[LeFevre]

Originally posted by scribble
I mean, what the f**k, talk about looking a gift whores in the mouth...


Cheers lol :cool:

[American]

Originally posted by scribble
Sheesh, you sound like you get caught up in some silly stuff.

I admit, it becomes ridiculous at time. Can't help it.

If she's sucked too many d**ks for you, send her my way. I like a girl who knows what she's doing.

It's not the count, it's the honesty of who you are and what you like. If she were a porn star, that would be ok as long as she admits it. But when she acts like a good girl to the rest of the world and pretends she's innocent, that's as bad as lying to my face.

I don't know what I want, to hear confessions and anouncements about it?


Avoiding the truth = lying. That's part of an honor code that's been grilled in to me.

[thinkren]

This is a *really* open ended question. Do you mean when is it *easiest* to ignore reality or in what situation is such a decision most proper?

To the first, I'd imagine when your mind is too occupied with something to pay much attention to reality, it is easy to be out of it. We've all spaced out occasionally, so we all know what that feels like. Perhaps athletes are a good example of how this could be mastered to the advantage of an individual. For example, a runner, who has the discipline and skill to tune out the muscle fatigue screaming for his attention, may push him/herself a few seconds faster than he would otherwise. But then, I guess you could ask if pain, fatigue, or other feelings constitute reality.....

To the seconds, I think it really depends on the individual. Personally, I think people of great accomplishments who've had the experience of struggling against overwhelming odds would know this best. When you have any kind of ambition, your success in pursuit of it is mostly determined by your ability to stand against criticism and failure. This is sometimes useful in a situation where luck is more important than skill.

In both cases, I think it is a personal decision that can not be understood or judged by anyone else other than the individual in question. Perhaps there is a more general (read: generic) way to answer the question that can speak to a wider audience, but such philosophical insights escapes me since I can not imagine a rigorously substantiated reality beyond one's immediate awareness.

I have a feeling what you're really asking, though, is how we can reconcile the internal inconsistancies evident in various religious traditions in the context of the modern world (through the eyepiece of modern preception). To this, I say "change". I believe religion exists in service to people, not the other way around. Many aspects of our existance, is "reality" that we can't do much about. Naturally, religion should be the one to change. In other words, leave reality alone, instead change the appreciation of it. The problem is, most religious traditions have a hard time admitting to being inadaquate or simply wrong. It's hard getting them to collectively acknowledge the need for change. It does happen though, I mean it took a couple hundred years, but most catholics would no longer say Copernicus or Galileo are still heretics. The best thing would be to evolve our current religious traditions (preferably all of them) so that change/adaptation of the perceptions/practice becomes a simpler thing to do than it is now. It would go a long way toward eliminating needless and costly conflicts.

I imagine an investigator in the pure sciences would have a few words to say about this as well. Like perhaps, going against conventional wisdom, or what is largely 'percieved' as reality provides an opportunity for new insights. Lets face it: reality can never be unconditionally known. Most of the time what we have are perceptions and approximations, limited by our ability to detect, measure, and quantify. Skeptics spend a great deal of effort reigning in the imagination of the more 'creatively misguided' among our fellow thinking creatures. But complete devotion to established scientific dogma is no better then the fanaticism of the fundies. It's unfortunate, but I see a great deal of this on the Randi forums. There is a significant fraction of posters here who seem solely bent on putting down others, as if being singularly critical is somehow virtuous. I can't speak for all, but I think most can appreciate the desire of others to be informed and enlightened when we discover that we are less so than we would like.

This is getting wordy, so I'll shut up now.

[Dancing David]

The question to ask is:
ARE YOU TELLING YOURSELF THE TRUTH?

In each case presented the question tells more about the asker of the question than the situation.

Why tell the dying person there is no heaven?
Why tell your girlfriend she is ugly?

How did the questioner reach this point and how much denial was involved?

Peace
dancing David

[aggle_rithm]

Originally posted by American

DO WE NEED TO KNOW THE UGLY TRUTH, OR DO CONTRARY ILLUSIONS COUNT FOR MUCH?

I would rather not know how many maggots are allowed in a jar of mayonnaise.

[c4ts]

When you find that you mean nothing compared to the rest of the universe, that an entire life of accomplishment will change nothing, that you have relatively little time before you die, that the sum total of human knowledge, let alone yours, is infintessimal... I suppose you could go mad, and make up stories about angels dancing on pinheads or qualia.

[DialecticMaterialist]

That is a total value judgement. It depends ultimately on what makes you "happier" I guess over the long run.

Though I should note that ignoring reality can effect your decisions, lead to bad decisions and ultimately closes your options, which is why I try not to ignore reality. I also despise dishonesty.