More dead and counting.

[zenith-nadir]

Ok as you all know Iraqi insurgents - muslims - blew up a 1200-year-old Muslim shrine yesterday. The response was not a coordinated effort to maginalize the insurgents but:

Feb 23, 2006 (http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060223/ap/d8fush900.html)


gunmen shot dead 47 civilians and left their bodies in a ditch near Baghdad Thursday
168 Sunni mosques had been attacked
10 imams killed and 15 abducted
three journalists working for Al-Arabiya television were found dead in Samarra
16 people, eight of them civilians, died in a bombing Thursday in the center of Baqouba
sunni Clerical Association of Muslim Scholars spokesman Abdul-Salam al-Kubaisi blamed the violence on the country's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.
shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr accused the Iraqi government and U.S. forces
fighting broke out Thursday afternoon in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad, between militiamen from al-Sadr's Mahdi Army militia and Sunni gunmen
gunmen fired automatic weapons and grenades at a Sunni mosque in Baqouba, killing one mosque employee and injuring two others
...and it's only been 24 hours.

9-11, London, Madrid, Beslan, Bali, Palestine, Amman, Danish cartoons and now this. I thought I would never say this but at some point should we just say "F" you , cut & run and leave this part of the planet to kill each other off until they are actually prepared to do something about their obvious internal problems?

[edited to add]

And please...spare me the "America should have thought of this" rationalization. America didn't invade Iraq with the understanding that muslims would kill other muslims wholesale, blow up 1200-year-old muslim shrines and freak out and kill each other over Danish cartoons. At some point the resposibility for these acts must be placed on the people perpetrating them.

[David Swidler]

Yeah, but we still need their oil.

[zenith-nadir]

Yeah, but we still need their oil.Cuz soccer moms are told they need to drive 6000 lb SUVs...I agree. ;)

[headscratcher4]

You worry too much. Dead-eyed Dick said that the insurgency was in its last throes. We must assume that this half-assed attempt to ignite a hot civil war is but one of their last throes...and the resulting retaliation (as is proven by its uncoordinated rage) is just a precursor to the calm that will prevail now that a decocratically elected government will soon be in place. In fact, I suspect that as Iraqi units continue to replace US units in the field -- as the President has claimed in some recent speeches -- they will quickly douse the passions stirred up by this incident and provide a new, higher, measure of stability that will enable us to finally deal a death blow to AlQeda in Iraq...:)

[David Swidler]

Heh. If only it were that simple. We need their oil even without the SUVs and minivans. There's also heating oil and public trnasportation and manufacturing and chemical companies...the list goes on. Yes, without hummers we'd cut down some, but dependence on foreign oil would still weigh heavily on the US economy and foreign policy.

Not to mention that the US is not the only country dependent on Mideast oil.

[NeilC]

Morally we cannot now say f*** you to it.

We should have said f*** you to the idea of ever going there in the first place.

Topple the tyranny and more often than not you find it was the only thing keeping a lid on things.

[pgwenthold]

And please...spare me the "America should have thought of this" rationalization. America didn't invade Iraq with the understanding that muslims would kill other muslims wholesale,.

So we slept through the Iran/Iraq war?

This is the kind of thinking that results lumping all brown-skinned people into a monolithic group.

[zenith-nadir]

Not to mention that the US is not the only country dependent on Mideast oil.It's amazing to me that American movie stars can get $20,000,000 a picture, American basketball players $15,000,000 a season, but politicians can't find a few billion to throw at hydrogen fuel technology to end our dependance on oil. Yes it's an goofy comparison but a factual one.

So we slept through the Iran/Iraq war?One would think at some point most human beings would desire peace rather than endless sectarian strife.

[Manny]

...politicians can't find a few billion to throw at hydrogen fuel technology to end our dependance on oil.Heh. Guess what the best way is to produce hydrogen. "First, get some crude oil or natural gas..."

[Luke T.]

I saw a before and after photo of the shrine on the front page of the newspaper this morning.

Holy smokes! No pun intended.

What the hell did they blow it up with, a tactical nuke?

[zenith-nadir]

What the hell did they blow it up with, a tactical nuke?That'll be next and then, sadly, it'll be too late for us all.

Heh. Guess what the best way is to produce hydrogen. "First, get some crude oil or natural gas..."Actually you can also make hydrogen from...

26 April, 2005 (http://www.livescience.com/technology/050426_hydrogen_waste.html)

A newly developed process that uses bacteria to consume human waste and other biomass produces four times more hydrogen than previous efforts.

Bacteria already produce hydrogen. But this fermentation process has a limit. In the new study, Logan and his colleagues juiced the bacteria with a tiny amount of electricity, about 0.25 volts -- a small fraction of what's needed to run a cell phone. The supercharged bacteria could then break down acetic acid into carbon dioxide and hydrogen -- a step they could not make on their own.

[pgwenthold]

One would think at some point most human beings would desire peace rather than endless sectarian strife.

Yeah, but what would have made us think this would be the time?

Remember, you claimed we couldn't have forseen muslims killing muslims. Why not? Because we hope at some point human beings would desire peace rather than sectarian strife?

That's not intelligence. That's wishful thinking. It's not that we couldn't have forseen it, it's that we were hoping it wouldn't have, and that's good enough. That is essentially your position here.

[Luke T.]

We used to produce hydrogen through electrolysis for our weather balloons in the Navy.

A bank of batteries and some water.

[Orwell]

We used to produce hydrogen through electrolysis for our weather balloons in the Navy.

A bank of batteries and some water.

You need electricity to produce hydrogen, lots of it. Hydrogen is only a "clean energy" if the source of electricity is clean. The main benefit of hydrogen motors is that they don't directly pollute (the combustion of hydrogen produces harmless water), that's why people have been so enthusiastic about them.

[Orwell]

The country of Iraq was an artificial construction hoisted upon "Iraqis" by the British at the end of WWI. Ethnically and culturally, Iraq doesn't correspond to something unified and solid. No wonder the place is falling apart.

[NeilC]

Israel, Pakistan and Iraq then?

Not the best track record for nation forming.

[Luke T.]

You need electricity to produce hydrogen, lots of it. Hydrogen is only a "clean energy" if the source of electricity is clean.

Exactly. I made that point a long time ago in another hydrogen fuel cell topic by posting links to toxic waste problems caused by batteries.

[SuperCoolGuy]

The country of Iraq was an artificial construction hoisted upon "Iraqis" by the British at the end of WWI. Ethnically and culturally, Iraq doesn't correspond to something unified and solid. No wonder the place is falling apart.

Well, if we built nations according those differences then it'd work itself out right? I mean, look at Pakistan and India. Mostly muslim, mostly hindu. That worked out dandy.

And if we had a purely Jewish Israel and a purely Arab/Christian/Muslim Palestine, then everything will be just fine, right?

Ethnically/religiously/culturally defined borders with forced mass movements of people into specific regions makes everything better . . .

[zenith-nadir]

That's wishful thinking. It's not that we couldn't have forseen it, it's that we were hoping it wouldn't have, and that's good enough. That is essentially your position here.My position is I would have thought people would see that terrorists blowing up 1200-year-old religious monuments is not a reason to begin killing each other just because you are either sunni or shiite. Call me crazy.

[Beerina]

Looking for pics, I went to CNN and FoxNews.

Iranian Prez Blames U.S., Israel for Iraq Shrine Bombing (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,185781,00.html)

Son of a bitch! We're even bigger bastards than I thought! We did it, not power hungry thugs leading religious retaliation cruscades.

If only we'd leve them alone so those thugs could get back to ruling with a murderous, iron fist.

[shecky]

You need electricity to produce hydrogen, lots of it. Hydrogen is only a "clean energy" if the source of electricity is clean. The main benefit of hydrogen motors is that they don't directly pollute (the combustion of hydrogen produces harmless water), that's why people have been so enthusiastic about them.

Not only that. Hydrogen is a net energy sink. Anything running on hydrogen would probably be run more cost effectively using the fuels that were consumed creating hydrogen in the first place.

[shecky]

Looking for pics, I went to CNN and FoxNews.

Iranian Prez Blames U.S., Israel for Iraq Shrine Bombing (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,185781,00.html)

Son of a bitch! We're even bigger bastards than I thought! We did it, not power hungry thugs leading religious retaliation cruscades.

If only we'd leve them alone so those thugs could get back to ruling with a murderous, iron fist.

The US does bear quite a bit of responsibility. Did not the US open that powder keg of a country? It didn't happen under Hussein's watch.

Really, this is the cost of US Middle East policy. It cost lives when Hussein stabilized the region by ruling with a iron fist, it continues to cost lives in the now that the US has allowed chaos to spread.

[headscratcher4]

The US does bear quite a bit of responsibility. Did not the US open that powder keg of a country? It didn't happen under Hussein's watch.

Really, this is the cost of US Middle East policy. It cost lives when Hussein stabilized the region by ruling with a iron fist, it continues to cost lives in the now that the US has allowed chaos to spread.


Fortunately, since we found WMDs in Iraq and were welcomed with flowers by jubulent crowds throughout Iraq, and we were able to put an end to such things as torture and prisoner abuse, our global credibility is pretty high on these issues both in Iraq and across the Middle East and no one will listen to the Presidnet of Iran.

[pgwenthold]

You need electricity to produce hydrogen, lots of it. Hydrogen is only a "clean energy" if the source of electricity is clean. The main benefit of hydrogen motors is that they don't directly pollute (the combustion of hydrogen produces harmless water), that's why people have been so enthusiastic about them.

Ignoring, of course, that water is the most abundant greenhouse gas.

Atmospheric scientists like to point that out.

[Orwell]

Well, if we built nations according those differences then it'd work itself out right? I mean, look at Pakistan and India. Mostly muslim, mostly hindu. That worked out dandy.

And if we had a purely Jewish Israel and a purely Arab/Christian/Muslim Palestine, then everything will be just fine, right?

Ethnically/religiously/culturally defined borders with forced mass movements of people into specific regions makes everything better . . .

I'm not arguing about the superiority of ethnical and cultural homogeneity. I mean, how could I? I'm Canadian, fercrissakes! ;) I'm just pointing out a fact: Iraq is an artificial construction. All countries are, one way or the other, but not only is Iraq an artificial construction, it is an artificial construction recently imposed from outside.

[Orwell]

Ignoring, of course, that water is the most abundant greenhouse gas.

Atmospheric scientists like to point that out.

Thank you for pointing out the bleeding obvious! Now pray tell, do you believe that hydrogen combustion is going to produce so much water that the Earth's climate will be affected significantly? Please take into account that over 70% of the Earth's surface is already covered in water, and that there are many areas of the Earth that cruelly lack a regular fresh water supply.

[SuperCoolGuy]

I'm not arguing about the superiority of ethnical and cultural homogeneity. I mean, how could I?' I'm Canadian, fercrissakes! I'm just pointing out a fact: Iraq is an artificial construction. All countries are, one way or the other, but not only is Iraq an artificial construction, it is an artificial construction recently imposed from outside.

I realize you weren't making that argument and I completely agree with you about everything else you said. I was being merely sarcastic in my previous post. Sorry.

[Darat]

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1301202#post1301202 :(

[Ed]

This might be the best thing. It might provide us with a quick way out and perhaps the violence will spread and the Shias and Sunnis can determine who is right once and for all.

[varwoche]

And please...spare me the "America should have thought of this" rationalization. America didn't invade Iraq with the understanding that muslims would kill other muslims wholesale, blow up 1200-year-old muslim shrines and freak out and kill each other over Danish cartoons. No can spare.

Scheuer on Iraq (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5279743/)
I think someone should have gone to the president when the discussion of going to Iraq was broached and have said, Mr. President, this is something that can only help Osama bin Laden. Whatever the danger posed by Saddam, whatever weapons he had, is almost irrelevant in that the boost it would give to al-Qaida was easily seen.

[Kerberos]

America didn't invade Iraq with the understanding that muslims would kill other muslims wholesale, blow up 1200-year-old muslim shrines and freak out and kill each other over Danish cartoons.
If America didn't at least consider that then America is sadly both stupid and deaf.

[headscratcher4]

Anyone who knew the history of Iraq and the Middle East knew that Arabs would kill Arabs and Muslims would kill Muslims (they are no different than other peoples or religions) -- and (to paraphrase Tom Lhear (?)) everyone would try to kill the Kurds.

Clearly, however, our foriegn and military policy was being made by people blissfully ignorant of history and happier still to stay that way.

In many ways, Saddam was the only thing that stood between order and a civil war -- that is not to excuse his evil and brutality, just to recongize that he kept a lid on it, even if he did so by supressing both Kurds and Shii'a.

[IllegalArgument]

This might be the best thing. It might provide us with a quick way out and perhaps the violence will spread and the Shias and Sunnis can determine who is right once and for all.

There is another thing to consider, the Kurds, if the country falls apart, then one the controls on Kurdish nationalism is gone. Turkey has a large Kurdish minority, which would love an independent Kurdishstan.

We might get two civil wars out of this.

[TragicMonkey]

Oh, let's just install another dictator and get the hell out. They don't seem to want democracy. Let the ones who do want it emigrate, and the rest can enjoy Saddam II.

[UserGoogol]

Faith in human nature is the root of many evils.

[Jon_in_london]

Not only that. Hydrogen is a net energy sink. Anything running on hydrogen would probably be run more cost effectively using the fuels that were consumed creating hydrogen in the first place.

Hmmm the thing is you can use energy from static sources - ones that cant easily be fitted into a mobile thing like a car or train- to produce hydrogen which is transportable.

And thats the crux of the matter. Its transportable.

I'm not sure how we would run aircraft though... biofuels?

Fermentation can provide us with a very wide array of organic chemicals. Google "ABE fermentation" as an example.

[Jon_in_london]

It's amazing to me that American movie stars can get $20,000,000 a picture, American basketball players $15,000,000 a season, but politicians can't find a few billion to throw at hydrogen fuel technology to end our dependance on oil. Yes it's an goofy comparison but a factual one.

I'd rather see the money spent on research into a fusion reactor.

[Dcdrac]

The country of Iraq was an artificial construction hoisted upon "Iraqis" by the British at the end of WWI. Ethnically and culturally, Iraq doesn't correspond to something unified and solid. No wonder the place is falling apart.


And Jordan as well, back then it was called TransJordan I beleive.

[Dcdrac]

The Making of Transjordan


Although the Sykes-Picot Agreement was modified considerably in practice, it established a framework for the mandate system which was imposed in the years following the war. Near the end of 1918, the Hashemite Emir Faisal set up an independent government in Damascus. However, his demand at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference for independence throughout the Arab world was met with rejection from the colonial powers. In 1920 and for a brief duration, Faisal assumed the throne of Syria and his elder brother Abdullah was offered the crown of Iraq by the Iraqi representatives. However, the British government ignored the will of the Iraqi people. Shortly afterward, the newly-founded League of Nations awarded Britain the mandates over Transjordan, Palestine and Iraq. France was given the mandate over Syria and Lebanon, but had to take Damascus by force, removing King Faisal from the throne to which he had been elected by the General Syrian Congress in 1920.

In November 1920, Emir (later King) Abdullah led forces from the Hijaz to restore his brother’s throne in the Kingdom of Syria. However, the French mandate over Syria was already well planted, and Emir Abdullah was obliged to delay his pan-Arab goals and focus on forming a government in Amman. Since the end of the war, the British had divided the land of Transjordan into three local administrative districts, with a British “advisor” appointed to each. The northern region of ‘Ajloun had its administrative center in Irbid, the central region of Balqa was based in Salt, and the southern region was run by the “Moabite Arab Government,” based in Karak. The regions of Ma’an and Tabuk were incorporated into the Kingdom of the Hijaz, ancestral home of the Hashemites. Faced with the determination of Emir Abdullah to unify Arab lands under the Hashemite banner, the British proclaimed Abdullah ruler of the three districts, known collectively as Transjordan. Confident that his plans for the unity of the Arab nation would eventually come to fruition, the emir established the first centralized governmental system in what is now modern Jordan on April 11, 1921.
King Faisal I, meanwhile, assumed the throne of the Kingdom of Iraq in the same year. The Hashemite family ruled Iraq until King Faisal’s grandson King Faisal II and his immediate family were all murdered in a bloody coup by Nasserist sympathizers led by Colonel Abdel Karim Qassem on July 14, 1958. The Hashemites suffered another major blow in 1925, when King Ali bin al-Hussein, the eldest brother of Abdullah and Faisal, lost the throne of the Kingdom of the Hijaz to Abdel Aziz bin Saud of Najd. The loss, which was brought about by a partnership between Ibn Saud and followers of the Wahhabi movement, led to the establishment of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and brought to an end over one thousand years of Hashemite rule in Mecca.
Left to right: King Ali of the Hijaz, King Abdullah of Jordan, Crown Prince (later King) Talal of Jordan, Abdul llah (Regent of Iraq), circa 1937.
© Royal Hashemite Court Archives
Emir Abdullah soon succeeded in loosening the British mandate over Transjordan with an Anglo-Transjordanian treaty. On May 15, 1923, Britain formally recognized the Emirate of Transjordan as a state under the leadership of Emir Abdullah. This angered the Zionists, as it effectively severed Transjordan from Palestine and so reduced the area of any future Jewish national home in the region. The treaty stipulated that Transjordan would be prepared for independence under the general supervision of the British high commissioner in Jerusalem, and recognized Emir Abdullah as head of state. In May 1925, the Aqaba and Ma’an districts of the Hijaz became part of Transjordan.

The period between the two world wars was one of consolidation and institutionalization in Transjordan. Abdullah sought to build political unity by melding the disparate Bedouin tribes into a cohesive group capable of maintaining Arab rule in the face of increasing Western encroachment. Abdullah realized the need for a capable security force to establish and ensure the integrity of the state in defense, law, taxation, and other matters. Accordingly, he set up the fabled Arab Legion as one cornerstone of the fledgling state. The Arab Legion was set up with assistance from British officers, the most well-known of whom was Major J. B. Glubb.

Although the Arab Legion provided Emir Abdullah with the means of enforcing the authority of the state throughout Transjordan, he realized that true stability could only be realized by establishing legitimacy through representative institutions. Hence, as early as April 1928 he promulgated a constitution, which provided for a parliament known as the Legislative Council. Elections were held in February 1929, bringing to power the first Legislative Council of 21 members. The Legislative Council was guaranteed advisory powers, and seven of its 21 members were appointed.

Between 1928 and 1946, a series of Anglo-Transjordanian treaties led to almost full independence for Transjordan. While Britain retained a degree of control over foreign affairs, armed forces, communications and state finances, Emir Abdullah commanded the administrative and military machinery of the regular government. On March 22, 1946, Abdullah negotiated a new Anglo-Transjordanian treaty, ending the British mandate and gaining full independence for Transjordan. In exchange for providing military facilities within Transjordan, Britain continued to pay a financial subsidy and supported the Arab Legion. Two months later, on May 25, 1946, the Transjordanian parliament proclaimed Abdullah king, while officially changing the name of the country from the Emirate of Transjordan to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

[geni]

Oh, let's just install another dictator and get the hell out. They don't seem to want democracy. Let the ones who do want it emigrate, and the rest can enjoy Saddam II.


Problem is there isn't anyone. The US basicaly tried this with some of the interim leaders they apointed. No dice.

You can't give the job to the sunnis because the shia have gained too much power.

You can't give the job to the kurds because that would anoy turkey

The shia have the problem that there powerbase is away from the centre of the country and the kurds (who are at the other end of the country) are unlikely to accept another outside dictator after basicaly running themselves for years.

[Dcdrac]

In the last few years I have begun to think the sovereign nation state is a very dangerous, anachronistic mechanism for ordering human affairs.

[Hutch]

I wonder if it's just me, or are we seeing (over the years) a change in the rhetoric (not just at this board, but overall in the body politic):

Alpha--"We're going to free the People of Iraq from a bloody dictator and they will welcome us for doing so."

Bravo--"Well, the people didn't run out with flowers to greet us once we liberated them, but once we've helped them build a Democracy they'll see how much better things are."

Charley--"The bulk of the people are for us and see how we are improving the country, but these damn terrorists crossing the border and these religious militias keep them from expressing themselves."

Delta--"We've helped them put together a Democracy but they keep fighting over the religious thing and I don't understand it."

Echo--"These are uncouth barbarians who don't deserve our help and they can all go back to living under a dictator as far as we're concerned."

Of course, not a perfect analysis and like any evolution, it's missing a few steps...but it sure sounds like what I am hearing.

Or maybe I'm just a bit deaf in my old age...

[Hutch]

There is another thing to consider, the Kurds, if the country falls apart, then one the controls on Kurdish nationalism is gone. Turkey has a large Kurdish minority, which would love an independent Kurdishstan.

We might get two civil wars out of this.

Wouldn't be a Civil War. If Kurdistan declares Independence on Sunday, by around Tuesday the Turkish Army will be in control.

And won't that confuse the picture to no end. Can you say "Ottoman"? I knew you could. ;) :) :eye-poppi

[IllegalArgument]

I'm all for helping them, just I'm not sure the US government is actually going to suceed at doing that.

It look like the beginning of a nasty series of civil wars, which might work for and against the USA's interests.

I have no idea what's going to happen. Next month, everything could have calmed down.

[IllegalArgument]

Wouldn't be a Civil War. If Kurdistan declares Independence on Sunday, by around Tuesday the Turkish Army will be in control.

And won't that confuse the picture to no end. Can you say "Ottoman"? I knew you could. ;) :) :eye-poppi

In control, just like we are in control of Iraq? :)

[geni]

In control, just like we are in control of Iraq? :)

Historicaly the kurds are pretty easy to control. You just keep killing them untill they stop fighting back. Machine gunning villages from the air and that kind of thing.

[TragicMonkey]

Historicaly the kurds are pretty easy to control.

Hasn't always been the case. Kurds have been around for a very long time. The Assyrians used to complain about how nasty they were in battle.

[Kerberos]

Anyone who knew the history of Iraq and the Middle East knew that Arabs would kill Arabs and Muslims would kill Muslims (they are no different than other peoples or religions) -- and (to paraphrase Tom Lhear (?)) everyone would try to kill the Kurds.

Tom Lehrer's "National Brotherhood Week" adapted:

Oh, the Sunnis hate the Shias,
And the Shias hate the Sunnis,
And the Arabs hate the Persians,
And everybody hates the Kurds.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

[Kerberos]

Historicaly the kurds are pretty easy to control. You just keep killing them untill they stop fighting back. Machine gunning villages from the air and that kind of thing.
Well the Turks would like to get into the EU, and machine gunning villages from the air might interfere with that.

[pgwenthold]

Historicaly the kurds are pretty easy to control. You just keep killing them untill they stop fighting back. Machine gunning villages from the air and that kind of thing.

I hear chemical weapons work, too.

[luchog]

Hmmm the thing is you can use energy from static sources - ones that cant easily be fitted into a mobile thing like a car or train- to produce hydrogen which is transportable.

And thats the crux of the matter. Its transportable.

I'm not sure how we would run aircraft though... biofuels?

Fermentation can provide us with a very wide array of organic chemicals. Google "ABE fermentation" as an example.
Biofuels are inherently more efficient than hydrogen, because they can be directly utilized; and the energy needed to produced them is predominantly solar; with minor terrestrial energy sources needed to harvest and refine them (said biofuels being the obvious choice). Hydrogen cannot be produced without utilizing another terrestrial energy source. Right now, that means fossil fuels. (Biodiesel is a good feedstock in the creation of hydrogen, actually.) So you're not only dealing with the utilization inefficiencies; but the production ineffeciencies.

Add to that, storage and transportation issues; which are far more complex and expensive than that needed for biofuels. There is really no advantage to hydrogen over biofuels in any respect other than noise (assuming hydrogen power cells); and possibly localization of pollutants (though that's a very minor issue, considering that some biofuels, such as biodiesel, create negligible pollution).

As for aircraft, a more refined form of biodiesel would probably work there (since jet fuel is effectively just a high grade kerosene); though I don't know enough to say for sure. If not, there's always TDP petrol fuel.

[Jon_in_london]

Biofuels are inherently more efficient than hydrogen, because they can be directly utilized; and the energy needed to produced them is predominantly solar; with minor terrestrial energy sources needed to harvest and refine them (said biofuels being the obvious choice). Hydrogen cannot be produced without utilizing another terrestrial energy source. Right now, that means fossil fuels. (Biodiesel is a good feedstock in the creation of hydrogen, actually.) So you're not only dealing with the utilization inefficiencies; but the production ineffeciencies.

Add to that, storage and transportation issues; which are far more complex and expensive than that needed for biofuels. There is really no advantage to hydrogen over biofuels in any respect other than noise (assuming hydrogen power cells); and possibly localization of pollutants (though that's a very minor issue, considering that some biofuels, such as biodiesel, create negligible pollution).

As for aircraft, a more refined form of biodiesel would probably work there (since jet fuel is effectively just a high grade kerosene); though I don't know enough to say for sure. If not, there's always TDP petrol fuel.

Only problem with biofuels is where to get the biomass from.... bearing in mind we still have to grow food and have nature reserves and forests and blah blah blah...

[geni]

I hear chemical weapons work, too.

They did ok for sadam but the british may have got by without them.

[a_unique_person]

Ok as you all know Iraqi insurgents - muslims - blew up a 1200-year-old Muslim shrine yesterday. The response was not a coordinated effort to maginalize the insurgents but:

...and it's only been 24 hours.

9-11, London, Madrid, Beslan, Bali, Palestine, Amman, Danish cartoons and now this. I thought I would never say this but at some point should we just say "F" you , cut & run and leave this part of the planet to kill each other off until they are actually prepared to do something about their obvious internal problems?

[edited to add]

And please...spare me the "America should have thought of this" rationalization. America didn't invade Iraq with the understanding that muslims would kill other muslims wholesale, blow up 1200-year-old muslim shrines and freak out and kill each other over Danish cartoons. At some point the resposibility for these acts must be placed on the people perpetrating them.

Yes, they did know the (rule 8) would hit the fan, at least, those who knew knew, those who didn't want to know made sure they didn't talk to the spoil sports who did.

[a_unique_person]

I wonder if it's just me, or are we seeing (over the years) a change in the rhetoric (not just at this board, but overall in the body politic):

Alpha--"We're going to free the People of Iraq from a bloody dictator and they will welcome us for doing so."

Bravo--"Well, the people didn't run out with flowers to greet us once we liberated them, but once we've helped them build a Democracy they'll see how much better things are."

Charley--"The bulk of the people are for us and see how we are improving the country, but these damn terrorists crossing the border and these religious militias keep them from expressing themselves."

Delta--"We've helped them put together a Democracy but they keep fighting over the religious thing and I don't understand it."

Echo--"These are uncouth barbarians who don't deserve our help and they can all go back to living under a dictator as far as we're concerned."

Of course, not a perfect analysis and like any evolution, it's missing a few steps...but it sure sounds like what I am hearing.

Or maybe I'm just a bit deaf in my old age...

They would have to speak for themselves, (or course), but I do think you left out pre-Alpha, WMD.

[Mark]

And please...spare me the "America should have thought of this" rationalization. America didn't invade Iraq with the understanding that muslims would kill other muslims wholesale, blow up 1200-year-old muslim shrines and freak out and kill each other over Danish cartoons. At some point the resposibility for these acts must be placed on the people perpetrating them.

Give me a break. Anyone even remotely familiar with the history of the region knew that Muslims would start killing Muslims. The only people who didn't were the Bush Admninistration and the people who will believe anything those people say, no matter how self serving or moronic.

They may be resonsible for their own actions, but the results of our misguided invasion were perfectly predictable for anyone not blinded by partisan politics.

[Kopji]

If we abandon the Kurds (or sit by idly while they die in massive numbers) our failure in Iraq would be complete.

The people who want civil war are being smarter than us though. I think we are still blinded by some weird inability to see things as they are in Iraq.

An act that might set everyone off would be the murder of Saddam Hussein. Wouldn't that be ironic.

[luchog]

Only problem with biofuels is where to get the biomass from.... bearing in mind we still have to grow food and have nature reserves and forests and blah blah blah...
The best biomass crops (like hemp) grow well in marginal land that is ineconomic for food crops. And there's plenty of arable land that is not being utilized.