Now that Kramer is gone....

[Alf]

I've been lurking around here for a few months. The only section I used to check was the "Challenge Applications" section. I didn't bother going through the other forums, not even this one. However, on this occassion, I felt I had to make a point.

I checked the threads here, and Mr. Kramer seems to have been very popular here. And though I did admire his promptness and dediction, in my opinion, his nature just did not suit the job. Sorry, someone has to be the first to say this... Though I did admire all that he did for the JREF, Mr. Kramer lost his temper very easily (just my opinion, though he did get better in the past 2-3 months). That job really needed a more patient person.

So, whoever the next person chosen for the job is, I request the JREF to choose a person who by nature is very patient and very courteous. Ideally I'd like these people to be like the "Customer Service Representatives" that we speak to on the phone. Even if the person on the phone shouts at them, and abuses them, they continue to be courteous or atleast patient. The person handling the job, should, in my opinion, always, come rain or shine, be 100% courteous and kind, and be *gasp* sympathetic to the applicant, and actually hope that the test is succesful under scientific observation.

Also, for the sake of something I call 'professionalism', the person should never opnely make assumptions about the applicant's mental health, or make any personal comments about the applicant in general, no matter how rude or insolent the applicant in general, or how obvious the state of applicant's mental health is.

Also, according to me, many files were prematurely closed by Mr. Kramer, when the applicant got difficult to handle, but in my opinion, that is not most professional either. The file should only be closed when there is a deadlock in negotiating the protocol, or if the applicant stops responding.

I sincerely hope that the JREF and Mr. Randi keep this in mind while choosing the next candidate. If Mr. Jeff Wagg is poised to take over the mantle, Mr. Wagg, I hope you do consider these points.

I know everyone loves Mr. Kramer here, and I might be bashed. But this is not to bash Mr. Kramer himself, but to just suggest what I hope the new person handling the job would be like. I hope there is at least one person who has noticed the things that I have noticed until now?

[LostAngeles]

When doing Customer Service, I was oft praised for my pleasant and proffessional composure.

And my brain tried to crawl out of my skull and drown itself in pure HCl.

That's dealing with the usual crackpots and white trash.

That Kramer doesn't hide in the shadows and hiss when things draw near amazes me.

(But I see your point.)

[Rasmus]

I checked the threads here, and Mr. Kramer seems to have been very popular here. And though I did admire his promptness and dediction, in my opinion, his nature just did not suit the job. Sorry, someone has to be the first to say this...

Hate to burst your bubble, but you're late to the party. This is by far not the first thread complaining about his work.

Though I did admire all that he did for the JREF, Mr. Kramer lost his temper very easily (just my opinion, though he did get better in the past 2-3 months). That job really needed a more patient person.

If you consider what and who one has to deal with in this job, I think KRamer has been amazingly patient. (Add to this the thoings that have been hinted at in the other thread about his leaving, that weren't as prominent in the forums before.)

So, whoever the next person chosen for the job is, I request the JREF to choose a person who by nature is very patient and very courteous. Ideally I'd like these people to be like the "Customer Service Representatives" that we speak to on the phone.

Have you ever worked such a job?

These people generaly don't give a rat's ass about the customers' needs. They are mostly clueless about anything that goes beyond the most standard procedures of the company they work for. They, simply, do not care.

And I don't blame them. They are payed crap, they hardly have a chance to influence their work environment, they are undertrained, often overworked and for all that, they get to spend their working hours either getting yelled at, or withg mundane, repetitive, mindkillingly boring tasks - usually because customers are too dimwitted to read the instructions or some such thing.

Even if the person on the phone shouts at them, and abuses them, they continue to be courteous or atleast patient.

Because someone in their endless wisdom decided that they would be fired if they didn't. Usually, these peolpe don't have a choice. I would admire any company that allowed their employees to call a spade a spade. It is difficult to draw a line between behavior that is still professional and behavior that isn't anymore - but it is possible.

The person handling the job, should, in my opinion, always, come rain or shine, be 100% courteous and kind, and be *gasp* sympathetic to the applicant, and actually hope that the test is succesful under scientific observation.

In my experiance, Kramher has done just that. Only, sometimes, courtesy would turn into stupidity if you keep up your patient behavior. Some people clearly do not want to be testet or are simply not able to understand the most basic requirements that would lead to a test. Why should the JREF spend their ressources on entertaining these people's applications beyond that point? Why not direct the ressources elwhere, where they might be somewhat more fruitful?

And if in response to your courtesy you earn instults and legal threats, why the heck would you continue to be gfriendly with those people?

Also, for the sake of something I call 'professionalism', the person should never opnely make assumptions about the applicant's mental health, or make any personal comments about the applicant in general, no matter how rude or insolent the applicant in general, or how obvious the state of applicant's mental health is.

Okay, so that would make professionalism happy. But certainly not the person dealing with the applications, not the JREF and, I guess, not the applicant, either: They will not be taken seriously forever, they will not be tested, they will not get a million dollars and they will not be seen as that one special person that did it. In most cases, they just will end up angry and dissapointed either way. Why wait?

Also, according to me, many files were prematurely closed by Mr. Kramer, when the applicant got difficult to handle, but in my opinion, that is not most professional either. The file should only be closed when there is a deadlock in negotiating the protocol, or if the applicant stops responding.

Unfortunately, that means they JREF would have to assign infinite ressources to the bullying of some of the applicants. Fine if you were to have unlimited ressources. As long as this is not the case, the JREF must carefully discriminate where it should direct those resources.

So far, it has been my impression that they have been more than fair about this, too. Applicant usually get told what is expected of them, and they are warned that their file will be closed if they continue a certain behavor.

I see nothing wrong with that.

I sincerely hope that the JREF and Mr. Randi keep this in mind while choosing the next candidate. If Mr. Jeff Wagg is poised to take over the mantle, Mr. Wagg, I hope you do consider these points.

I know everyone loves Mr. Kramer here, and I might be bashed. But this is not to bash Mr. Kramer himself, but to just suggest what I hope the new person handling the job would be like. I hope there is at least one person who has noticed the things that I have noticed until now?

Yes, there have been. But the general gist of things (and by all means, that is not a universal agreement) was that you cpould barely do more under the circumstances.

Also - and I did save this bit for last - Kramer has taken the criticism of his work very seriously and did indeed change how he treated applicants.

I applaud both Kramer and the JREF for how they have been handling their applicants. It might not be perfect, but it seems far more than what could reasonably expected. And I am glad they are not outsourcing this cruical part of their operation to some call center...

So now, you can consider yourself bashed, if you like.

Rasmus.

[Paul2]

I think the idea that someone in Kramer's position should treat applicants like an ideal Customer Service representative fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the Million Dollar Challenge.

Main point: applicants are not customers.

Applicants are not buying anything, and the primary reason why Customer Service reps act the way they do is because of the almighty dollar. The company will have a Customer Service representative to do anything if the company thinks that behavior will get the company more money. That incentive and dynamic is completely absent in the Million Dollar Challenge.

So, the question is, why should someone in Kramer's position act like a Customer Service representative? Heading off a potential non-answer, saying that it would be "professional" doesn't explain anything, it is merely uses a different label for the same idea.

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

I think the idea that someone in Kramer's position should treat applicants like an ideal Customer Service representative fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the Million Dollar Challenge.

Main point: applicants are not customers.

Applicants are not buying anything, and the primary reason why Customer Service reps act the way they do is because of the almighty dollar. The company will have a Customer Service representative to do anything if the company thinks that behavior will get the company more money. That incentive and dynamic is completely absent in the Million Dollar Challenge.

So, the question is, why should someone in Kramer's position act like a Customer Service representative? Heading off a potential non-answer, saying that it would be "professional" doesn't explain anything, it is merely uses a different label for the same idea.
Instead of thinking of the job as a Customer Service Representative, let's use a more apt analogy:

A lone Customer Service Representative working for entire company. This company is looking for someone to give all of it's money away to. On a daily basis, this person is screamed at and personally threatened by people can not decipher between reality and fantasy. This person's every written word is scrutinized by thousands of people on the Internet.

So maybe we can give the guy a break if he was a little short with potential applicants.

[roger]

"Why do you make mommy hit you?"

[kittynh]

I think we should think that how we treat applicants reflects directly on how the public percieves JREF and Mr.Randi.

Besides treating people with common courtesy and not with rudeness is something we should all strive for in our jobs. I teach preschoolers. I am firm with them, but I never lose sight that they are people. Now their PARENTS! The head of the school once joked he was only accepting orphans, as we would have the perfect school if it wasn't for parents!

Behind every woo is a human being (excepting Sylvia Browne and John Edwards).

Taking the high ground can have it's own pleasures. We don't need to lower ourselves to their level. And perhaps by our dignity earn the respect of people who hear "Randi doesn't want to give out the million dollars." If a crazed woo is screaming abuse about JREF, and our replies have been calm and rational - JREF will come out smelling like roses.

Now, JREF just has to find a living saint to fill the position and they are all set!

[Alf]

I think we should think that how we treat applicants reflects directly on how the public percieves JREF and Mr.Randi.

Besides treating people with common courtesy and not with rudeness is something we should all strive for in our jobs. I teach preschoolers. I am firm with them, but I never lose sight that they are people. Now their PARENTS! The head of the school once joked he was only accepting orphans, as we would have the perfect school if it wasn't for parents!

Behind every woo is a human being (excepting Sylvia Browne and John Edwards).

Taking the high ground can have it's own pleasures. We don't need to lower ourselves to their level. And perhaps by our dignity earn the respect of people who hear "Randi doesn't want to give out the million dollars." If a crazed woo is screaming abuse about JREF, and our replies have been calm and rational - JREF will come out smelling like roses.

Now, JREF just has to find a living saint to fill the position and they are all set!

Atleast there's one person :D

I agree with what you said :D

All I'm saying is that special jobs require special people, and in this case, the requirement is that the person be extra-ordinarily, superhumanly patient. It is not easy to find such a person, and it may even take months, but I feel the JREF must take its time to find such a person. If we do have such a person in hand, we might even see a few more tests being held (very very few tests seem to be actually held). It is understandably difficult for anyone of us to keep our sanity in the midst of a deluge of threats and irrational claims. But just imagine.... If one such person were found..... And I believe that such a person does exist, and hopefully will be selected for the post.

[Beth]

You can make it two people who agree with you. :)

[Complexity]

Don't agree with the OP at all.

I loved the way Kramer did his job. I hope the new person to fill that role acts at least as Kramerish as Kramer did.

[KnotKnitWit]

Atleast there's one person :D

I agree with what you said :D

All I'm saying is that special jobs require special people, and in this case, the requirement is that the person be extra-ordinarily, superhumanly patient. It is not easy to find such a person, and it may even take months, but I feel the JREF must take its time to find such a person. If we do have such a person in hand, we might even see a few more tests being held (very very few tests seem to be actually held). It is understandably difficult for anyone of us to keep our sanity in the midst of a deluge of threats and irrational claims. But just imagine.... If one such person were found..... And I believe that such a person does exist, and hopefully will be selected for the post.
Alf, I don't think that it's possible for me to disagree with you more. In fact, my opinion is that your entire take on this matter is both incorrect and far from useful. Allow me to explain...


Please re-read both Rasmus' and Ripley's posts. They both contain points that form the very foundation of the Challenge applications and the difficulties inherent in managing them. Your complete disregard for these difficulties, especially as demonstrated in the above quote, shows me that you are merely pontificating without any basis in fact or knowledge.
Have you read each and every post contained in Challenge negotiations with applicants who have axes to grind and who went on and on and on, wasting JREF's time and resources while never intending to actually come to the testing point? Have you read each and every helpful response Kramer wrote in dealing with these people? Have you noticed just how many times Randi, himself, was the one who decided to pull the plug? I have and, IMNSHO, you are wrong.
Speaking of Randi, have you noticed how many times he agreed with Kramer? Have you noticed how many times Randi has stated that the purpose of HIS foundation isn't to wrap idiots in cotton wool? One of the things I most like and admire about Randi is that he doesn't pull punches. Your 'suggestions' would turn a powerful organization into a children's ballet class.
Your 'suggestions' not only would make the JREF a laughing-stock, they would siphon away it's time, money and educational services in order to cater to the mental disorders of anyone with a 'mission from God', a stamp and five bucks for a notary. The number of serious applicants is small and the number of seriously disturbed people is great. Why should JREF waste its efforts on encouraging such people to continue a long and fruitless correspondence?

Lastly, I cannot help but wonder at your motivation in starting this thread. You have not participated in these forum discussions yet you, immediately, jump in to cast aspersions on a good person doing a good job. Why is that, Alf? Did Kramer step on your puppy? I cannot imagine joining a forum and making my first post, no matter how long I had lurked, a long screed against someone who wasn't around to defend himself. It is cowardly and declasse and not the behavior of someone who seems to be trying to appear as a gentleman.

Outside of this board, I don't know Kramer. I've never met the man. I didn't even know that he was a musician until I read it here. But, I do know that I'd rather spend a day with him than with you.

[Gayle]

Did anyone check to see if Alf's a sockpuppet recycling old posts from the MANY times this has been discussed? His two posts sounded familar.

[kittynh]

I'm not saying Kramer did a bad job. He did a good job.

To be honest he did a good job for a LONG time.

I'm thinking about the new person. And I'm thinking about the qualities the new person will need to have.

Kramer is a dear. But he really is a talented muscian and a great father. Not that he didn't do a great job, but I am hoping he's back to music or exploring and enjoying another one of his many passions and talents. He deserves to be able to do something that won't give him a headache and nightmares (let's face it, reading all that stuff would do it to ME!)

I've also stated that the job required a team effort. One person and all those woos? At the very least some qualified volunteer helpers are needed. I think it is remarkable he kept his cool as much as he did! I would really hate for just one person to have to deal with ALL that oddness (which at times it is) without some back up. One person in charge and a lot of support!

[Suezoled]

(snippe)

I request the JREF to choose a person who by nature is very patient and very courteous. Ideally I'd like these people to be like the "Customer Service Representatives" that we speak to on the phone. Even if the person on the phone shouts at them, and abuses them, they continue to be courteous or atleast patient.(snipped)



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhaaa....*wheeze...gasp...* oh man, I am so dying laughing right now. Ouch. I have a cramp in my side from laughing so hard.
*ponders a moment* hey, hold on. How do you KNOW that a CSR is courteous and polite even when they're being shouted at on the phone? The clearest explanation I can think of is that you, also, abused another human being on the phone and was still treated well.
Eff damnit. Call some company because you want something, give them all hell, and then still expect to be waited on and helped out. Talk about messed up.

...on the other hand, I haven't had such a good laugh since that woman took her mother to the ER and found out from the surgeon that Momma was cramming pototoes and other food items in places she shouldn't have been cramming them.

[KnotKnitWit]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhaaa....*wheeze...gasp...* oh man, I am so dying laughing right now. Ouch. I have a cramp in my side from laughing so hard.
*ponders a moment* hey, hold on. How do you KNOW that a CSR is courteous and polite even when they're being shouted at on the phone? The clearest explanation I can think of is that you, also, abused another human being on the phone and was still treated well.
Eff damnit. Call some company because you want something, give them all hell, and then still expect to be waited on and helped out. Talk about messed up.
Good thought. Not to mention that even the title of this thread betrays the thought processes of the initiator. <snerk>

...on the other hand, I haven't had such a good laugh since that woman took her mother to the ER and found out from the surgeon that Momma was cramming pototoes and other food items in places she shouldn't have been cramming them.
Wow! I wish I knew about this one. Shouldn't that win some sort of award?

[rjh01]

Just had a terrible thought. Could Kramer apply for the $1m prize? I mean he would know how to do it. If JREF gets a good application in the next year with affidavits then Kramer may be behind it.

[Soapy Sam]

I vacillate on this issue.
I agree that politeness costs nothing.

Then I think about some of the clients I deal with and how much I've wanted to take a couple around back and just kick the shoot out of them.
And while a pain in the butt, they were at least rational.

I think this is one of those "Hold your peace till you have walked in his moccasins*" moments.
* I'm not sure how you spell it either.

[Rasmus]

I vacillate on this issue.
I agree that politeness costs nothing.

But it does.

It would be polite to keep entertaining the whims of "these people", and that is costly. It may be impolite to tell them that one will no longer deal with them and why that is. But it needs to bew done dues to a lack of ressources. Telling them why may be impolite, but gives them a chance to reflect upon their behavior, change and maybe come back later. Being polite here would cost opportunities for both sides.

Rasmus.

[Suezoled]

I vacillate on this issue.
I agree that politeness costs nothing.

Then I think about some of the clients I deal with and how much I've wanted to take a couple around back and just kick the shoot out of them.
And while a pain in the butt, they were at least rational.

I think this is one of those "Hold your peace till you have walked in his moccasins*" moments.
* I'm not sure how you spell it either.

Only if it goes both ways.

And that, it does not.

I for one did not hold my peace when angry callers told me in all angry sincerity that I (someone they had never met, probably never would meet, had nothing to do with their issue, and was just taking the brunt of their wrath) would tell me stuff like, oh I deserved to be raped by a dog. And killed. Not necessarily in that order.

On a tangent, there is a story of a surgeon and a nurse in the operating room. The surgeon is looking at the patient, and asks for the scissors. The nurse knows it's not the scissors he needs, and it's not what he was really asking for, it's just what came out. But she gives him the scissors anyway. The surgeon takes one look at the scissors in his hands, throws them on the floor, and says "damnit woman, give me what I need, not what I ask for."

[rjh01]

It is not rude to refuse to deal with rude or aggressive people. We do not need to get in the gutter. Just say something like
'I note your threats in your latest communication. Because of these threats we are rejecting your application. Please do not apply again for at least 12 months.'
Polite, short, and cheap.

[Gr8wight]

But it does.

It would be polite to keep entertaining the whims of "these people", and that is costly. It may be impolite to tell them that one will no longer deal with them and why that is. But it needs to bew done dues to a lack of ressources. Telling them why may be impolite, but gives them a chance to reflect upon their behavior, change and maybe come back later. Being polite here would cost opportunities for both sides.

Rasmus.

I think the word we should be looking for is civility. It is not necessary to take these people out for tea, but neither is it necessary to correspond with them in a rude or condescending tone. That is why I tried to suggest to Kramer (way back when we first started having this discussion) that he prepare several form letters he could send out to those applicants that gave him trouble. Something like these:

1) We are in receipt of your application. Unfortunately, it is incomplete for the following reason...(insert a column of reasons with check boxes. e.g. not notarized; no clear statement of claim; etc.) Please correct the omission and resubmit.

2) We have exchanged several letters and are no closer to a resolution to this issue. Please closely examine the challenge rules and FAQ that can be found at the following urls. Until your correspondence conforms to the rules as laid out there we will not entertain any further communication.

3) Your claim is of such a nature that we require you to provide 3 affidavits from people who have seen you demonstrate your ability as you have described in your application.

4) We consider your correspondence to be threatening in nature. Please cease and desist all communications or we will call the police.

etc.

Kramer protested that he would not stoop to being so impersonal, but my feeling is so many of the people the challenge administrator is forced to deal with are so difficult that the stress level of the job is raised to such a point that an outburst is almost inevitable from time to time. Being able to zap out an official sounding and civilly worded form letter when appropriate would reduce the stress level considerably, allowing the person doing the job to concentrate on serious and promising applications without the frustration from other nutbars spilling over.

[Floyt]

If a rude or condescending answer turns an applicant away, it weakens the position of JREF. What would you prefer: "There have been X applicants, none of which could prove their claims" - or "There have been applicants, none of which could prove their claims, and a further Y applicants that were annoyed when we called them loons, and buggered off"?

Regardless of what can be expected of a lone applicant-processing WooWrangler, the ideal attitude would be steady civility. Which may be unattainable, but should be the goal. Which is what Alf was saying.

[Suezoled]

If a rude or condescending answer turns an applicant away, it weakens the position of JREF. What would you prefer: "There have been X applicants, none of which could prove their claims" - or "There have been applicants, none of which could prove their claims, and a further Y applicants that were annoyed when we called them loons, and buggered off"?

Regardless of what can be expected of a lone applicant-processing WooWrangler, the ideal attitude would be steady civility. Which may be unattainable, but should be the goal. Which is what Alf was saying.

No, Alf is saying JREF should find someone who is always nice no matter what the other person is saying, shoveling, lying about, distorting, harassing, harping, stalking, threatening. And, Alf is also saying that that person should hope that every single person who ever applies, thinks about applying, would like to apply, etc, should be sincerely wished that they succeed, and perhaps facilitated by the JREF itself.

If an applicant turns away because the other person is rude or condescending, I wonder if it's not just a ready excuse for the applicant to run off.

[T'ai Chi]

No, Alf is saying JREF should find someone who is always nice no matter what the other person is...


That is what 'customer' service usually consists of. :)

[Moochie]

I thought Kramer did an exceptional job, Alf.

The point is not to have more tests, but to have people who follow the Challenge rules without fail.

If applicants do this, then more tests may follow.

M.

[Rasmus]

That is what 'customer' service usually consists of. :)

Maybe so. I think it is very much debateble if this is a good thing, though. I think customers can sometimes be wrong.

But that is hardly the point here, is it? The JREF is not dealing with customers. The JREF is not even dealing with people that fund it indirectly through taxes or some such thing.

The JREF stands alone, on its own and is handing out money to people, under the condition that peolpe follow a small set of very reasonable rules.

Treating customers good even if they behave badly works under the assumption that customers bring money to the business and thus are entitled to behave oddly sometimes. Maybe things would look different if there was an application fee with the JREF challenge?

Rasmus.

[Gayle]

I have an idea ... let's advocate for hiring someone who is bland and has no personality. Let's be as uninteresting as possible. And let's remember the customer is always right.

Or, alternately, we could wait for James Randi to get well and let him decide what he wants in a Challenge Facilitator.

It seems terribly disrespectful to Randi to enthusiastically come up with ideas of how HIS Challenge should be handled differently while he is currently working to reclaim his strength. If you've ever been seriously ill yourself or worked on behalf of the ill or elderly, you'll recognize the way people almost unconsciously start to marginalize you, as if your thoughts, feelings and goals were secondary to all the great ideas of the caretakers.

Try to put yourself in a similar situation ... you're sick for a while ... then you come back and discover a boatload of criticism of how you've handled the project that is most associated with your name. Everyone has an idea of how you should improve it and handle it differently. How do you think you might feel about that?

It is not our Challenge. It is the James Randi Challenge. Let's not forget that detail.

This is not about KRAMER or "Now that Kramer is gone." It's about "Now that Randi is sick." You're criticizing the choices James Randi made regarding the way the Challenge was handled and you're doing it when he most needs our unconditional love and support.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh. I know there's great love for Randi here, especially from folks like kittenh.

I'm just suggesting we all curb our enthusiasm for how things should be done differently until Randi invites our suggestions. It's kind of like we're redecorating his bedroom and turning it into a guestroom for others while he's away. Gauche!


And Alf...

All I'm saying is that special jobs require special people, and in this case, the requirement is that the person be extra-ordinarily, superhumanly patient. It is not easy to find such a person, and it may even take months, but I feel the JREF must take its time to find such a person. If we do have such a person in hand, we might even see a few more tests being held (very very few tests seem to be actually held). It is understandably difficult for anyone of us to keep our sanity in the midst of a deluge of threats and irrational claims. But just imagine.... If one such person were found..... And I believe that such a person does exist, and hopefully will be selected for the post.

What is this we you speak of in your second post? That jumped out and made me wonder.

[CFLarsen]

That is what 'customer' service usually consists of. :)

Would you be nice to a psychic surgeon?

[megafly]

As someone who has one of these legendary "customer service" jobs, I wouldn't wish such a job requirement on my worst enemy. I agree that the new facilitator (whenever he or she may come) should treat people with all they respect they show the JREF. However, to respond to disrespect with respect and fail to point out when individuals are obviously mentally ill, does the applicants no good and harms the challenge.

In short, I suggest that they call crazy people crazy, and give people back just what they put in.

[RSLancastr]

If an applicant turns away because the other person is rude or condescending, I wonder if it's not just a ready excuse for the applicant to run off.I am sure that is the case for some, Suezoled.

But I don't think that means that we should give them that ready excuse.

I would hope that whoever responds to Challenge Applications does so in a professional manner. Polite when possible. Firm when it is required. But never condescending, sarcastic, or insulting.

I think that gr8wight's suggestion of some boilerplate responses to use in given circumstances is a good idea. It could take some of the emotion out of emotionally-charged situations.

[Gr8wight]

I think that gr8wight's suggestion of some boilerplate responses to use in given circumstances is a good idea. It could take some of the emotion out of emotionally-charged situations.

Exactly my point. At times, Kramer was seen to respond in a less than polite manner to some applicants. We all understand that it sprung from frustration, but the JREF must be cognizant of the face it presents to the world, and any time an applicant is treated poorly, it fuels the claims of the bleevers that the challenge is a fraud. Businesslike is the tone that must be set and kept to.

[T'ai Chi]

Exactly my point. At times, Kramer was seen to respond in a less than polite manner to some applicants. We all understand that it sprung from frustration, but the JREF must be cognizant of the face it presents to the world, and any time an applicant is treated poorly, it fuels the claims of the bleevers that the challenge is a fraud. Businesslike is the tone that must be set and kept to.

Exactly.

There is really no point in being angry in correspondance with the applicants. One could just tell them that for this or that reason their file is closed, or they will have to reapply, etc.

And because it is written correspondance, you'd think that would give one more time to craft a well-written and not angry response?

[Gr8wight]

And because it is written correspondance, you'd think that would give one more time to craft a well-written and not angry response?

I don't think anger was ever a problem, just frustration at the overwhelming stupidity of some of the applicants.

[gtc]

Just had a terrible thought. Could Kramer apply for the $1m prize? I mean he would know how to do it. If JREF gets a good application in the next year with affidavits then Kramer may be behind it.

Kramer could apply and I am sure he could produce a good application, but he still would have to actually DO something paranormal. If Kramer had super powers, then several applicants would probably have been smote by now!

[Floyt]

(bit of a side issue here, but...)


(...)
I'm just suggesting we all curb our enthusiasm for how things should be done differently until Randi invites our suggestions. It's kind of like we're redecorating his bedroom and turning it into a guestroom for others while he's away. Gauche!


Don't really see the point in this request. We are doing the criticism thing all the time, specifically as regards the Challenge, and Randi very rarely bothers to be unduly concerned about it, unless there's open rebellion and pitch-fork waving (see the "age requirement in registration" issue). You don't really expect a Skeptics board to not comment on issues unless invited, do you? And it's not as if we are plotting to install a Pernicious Kramer Puppet while Randi's not looking. Just tossing options around, as always.

On topic, I find the the boilerplate idea to be a good idea.

[kittynh]

oh it's always fun to speculate! Plus, I think things are JREF are running well despite Randi being in recovery.

[vIQleS]

I think what the [what are we calling this position? Challenge Coordinator?] has to remember or at least assume is that the applicants are frequently quite stupid, and do not understand how to apply or what is required of them.

Kramer did a good job for the most part, but he had a tendency, now and then, to come off a bit 'snappy', perhaps letting his irritation show through, perhaps just not caring what people think (and good for him).

I think a compromise between CSR guy being nice to everyone regardless, and snappy insulting guy is called for...

Just being civil and matter of fact about every email - if it gets to the point of threats and severe antisocial behavior, the coordinator simply and firmly (and most importantly calmly) cuts them off. Examples have already been given, and Kramer has done this magnificently on many occasions.

Most importantly is the ability to explain everything in very simple language so that there can be no possibility of confusion.

Having said all that, I'm sure the JREF and JR don't really care about my opinion and will hire whomever they please, and I look forward to meeting the new guy...


PS: Now that he's no longer the Challenge Guy, will we be seeing Kramer on the forums again? I do think his comments are clever and entertaining, and i'd like to see him back and hear his take on all the new applicants (and the new guy too hopefully)

[KnotKnitWit]

I have an idea ... let's advocate for hiring someone who is bland and has no personality. Let's be as uninteresting as possible. And let's remember the customer is always right.

Or, alternately, we could wait for James Randi to get well and let him decide what he wants in a Challenge Facilitator.

It seems terribly disrespectful to Randi to enthusiastically come up with ideas of how HIS Challenge should be handled differently while he is currently working to reclaim his strength. If you've ever been seriously ill yourself or worked on behalf of the ill or elderly, you'll recognize the way people almost unconsciously start to marginalize you, as if your thoughts, feelings and goals were secondary to all the great ideas of the caretakers.

Try to put yourself in a similar situation ... you're sick for a while ... then you come back and discover a boatload of criticism of how you've handled the project that is most associated with your name. Everyone has an idea of how you should improve it and handle it differently. How do you think you might feel about that?

It is not our Challenge. It is the James Randi Challenge. Let's not forget that detail.

This is not about KRAMER or "Now that Kramer is gone." It's about "Now that Randi is sick." You're criticizing the choices James Randi made regarding the way the Challenge was handled and you're doing it when he most needs our unconditional love and support.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh. I know there's great love for Randi here, especially from folks like kittenh.

I'm just suggesting we all curb our enthusiasm for how things should be done differently until Randi invites our suggestions. It's kind of like we're redecorating his bedroom and turning it into a guestroom for others while he's away. Gauche!
Something I never considered and something that should actually be the primary consideration. Thanks, Gayle.


And Alf...

What is this we you speak of in your second post? That jumped out and made me wonder.
Word.

[kittynh]

maybe Alf is roylaty...

could be!

[KnotKnitWit]

Exactly my point. At times, Kramer was seen to respond in a less than polite manner to some applicants. We all understand that it sprung from frustration, but the JREF must be cognizant of the face it presents to the world, and any time an applicant is treated poorly, it fuels the claims of the bleevers that the challenge is a fraud. Businesslike is the tone that must be set and kept to.
Anent both Gayle's comments and often-mentioned comments in Kramer's Challenge correspondence postings:

Did you ever notice how many times Kramer mentioned his discussions with Randi, how many times he quoted Randi's statements about handling a given situation, how many times Randi was actually quoted? Do you honestly think that Kramer's handling of Challenge applications existed in a Randi-free vacuum?

This isn't the Kramer Challenge or the Gr9wight Challenge or the KnotKnitWit Challenge. It's the JAMES RANDI Challenge and, until his illness, The Amazing One had more than one finger in this particular pie.

The mere starting of this thread was both cowardly and hubristic and whoever 'Alf' is (with his seagull-like behavior) he had no right to do it. 'Alf' is a zero factor in managing the Challenge applications and his hit-him-when-he's-gone screed should cause his face to burn with shame every time he thinks of it.

We are ALL zero factors in this matter. Randi has never been known to consider wimpy conciliation as a valid choice for his own behavior. I think his disregard for the raving and frothing of the woos is one of the reasons we all love him so much. The SWIFT columns contain Randi's own words. How many of those commentaries show the abjectly submissive attitude that 'Alf' would impose on Kramer's replacement? Can we find even one such? Why would we think, for one single moment, that Randi would approve of 'Alf's' ideal employee?

Randi chose Kramer. For nearly two years, Randi worked with Kramer and, to all appearances, was happy with Kramer's work. Nor should we forget that, whatever the reason, Kramer didn't leave until AFTER Randi was stricken. We have no way of knowing how Randi now feels about Kramer's work.

Therefore, it seems to me that the last thing we should be doing is to act as if Randi wanted/wants someone with a different manner in handling Challenge applications. This isn't just a fun exercise in what-might-be. As Gayle said, it's acting as if Randi will never return to the helm of JREF and I, for one, cannot bear to even think of such a thing.

Sorry for the long post. I didn't think of these things until Gayle posted but she is right. After this, I'm not even going to give 'Alf' the minor satisfaction of thinking that his idiotic suggestions are worthy of the slightest consideration. For this thread...I'm done.

[epepke]

It is not our Challenge. It is the James Randi Challenge. Let's not forget that detail.

Well, you know, I remember more than a decade ago when Randi was asking for pledges on various mailing lists I subscribed to in order to supplement his original $10,000. I found a reference to the challenge here. (http://groups.google.com/group/sci.skeptic/browse_frm/thread/20084a29bad41c15/11c53def9bb3a829?lnk=st&q=%22Randi%22+pledge+challenge+group%3Asci.skeptic&rnum=3&hl=en#11c53def9bb3a829)

It contains the following text:

Due to the generosity of supporters who share my view of "psychic" claims, I have
received (as of this date, 12/20/95) pledges from 209 persons amounting to $473,000
-- which sum includes my own $10,000 pledge. Presently, I am having this matter
examined by lawyers to be sure that the augmented prize may be legally offered to
claimants. I expect that by the end of this year I will be able to change the challenge
award, and I will at that time change this entry to announce the availability of the new
prize.


Many of the people who made pledges were my friends and colleagues. I considered making a pledge myself, but I realized that I could not guarantee availability of the money on the salary of a junior academic.

I am not privy to the inner workings of the current million dollar challenge. I expect that it is set up to be squeaky clean, legally. I've seen statements that the million dollars is real money, invested in low-risk investments that don't produce much revenue. That's different from a pledge, so I suspect that, legally, the current challenge has nothing to do with this previous challenge, except that Randi's own $10,000 is included. I've also read here that the money isn't Randi's, such that he or his heirs get to keep it if the challenge is not won.

On the other hand, those pledges were an important, possibly a crucial part of the culture and history of the challenge. I think that, but for this community-building, there would not be a million dollar challenge today. And it was definitely the building of a community of like-minded individuals. Some people who could afford it pledged money. Others, such as myself, promoted Randi and worked to strengthen his reputation in the scientific community, getting him, for example, the opportunity to speak at the meeting that put the kibosh on Pons and Fleischman.

But let's forget all that. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that it were like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation or the Carnegie Foundation (or whatever it's called). Totally private, endowed by the personal wealth of an individual.

It would still be appropriate for people who have a love of skepticism and have watched and sometimes helped Randi's star rise to its current exhalted position, to be concerned with the face that JREF and it's associated people and organizations present to the rest of the world.

And I'm concerned. It's looking to me more like, not a community, or even a dictatorship, but a gang. I've elicited some of this gang behavior in another thread. It's not simply challenging the paranormal and going after charlatans and frauds, it's a turf war against the rival gang, which are called the "Woos."

Now, if that's what those who have the power over JREF want to happen, and it's just the Nietzschean will to power, well, that's what will happen.

I've seen it happen before; I was involved in almost the entire lifecycle of the Supercomputer Computations Research Institute. In that Institute, I saw many things as it aged: flailing about when the leader was incapacitated, tightening of ranks and hierarchy, increasing hostility to low-status members, emphasis on maintenance rather than growth, attempts at reorganization, and eventually, total collapse and disintegration.

Flame me if you will, but don't say I didn't tell you.

[-42-]

If I could make grains of salt fly through their air by my will alone, I'd entertain extreme levels of abuse for $1M, being famous, a place in history and a travelling road show along with endorsements from NuSalt commercials.

"NuSalt is so much like real Salt, I can make it fly too!" *holds up container* <zippy zippy>

Yes, I've been giving it thought ;p



"In order to process your claim further, John will need to stop by your residence and hit you with a bat in the ribs. Thank you for your cooperation"

OK! Then what? (btw that guy would soooo leave my house with salt in his eyes)

Calling me a "Saltakenetic", not saying "please and thank you" and questioning my mental stability would be awfully minor ;)

[NiallM]

I've written on this subject before, suggesting that civility is the least that JREF should present - no matter what crap the applicant throws at it.

I became convinced that Kramer was doing the job as he was told - and was doing it in an atmosphere that allowed for the occasional snarky response.

We've seen that that is the style of Randi himself.

Perhaps, as the interface to the Challenge, the next office-holder should consider moderating Randi's occasional outburts and keep them within the walls of the JREF. Maybe that sort of leadership is needed. It's a task that's performed daily by secretarys, PA's, civil servants etc. Their boss can vent fully, and a translated version is then presented for public consumption. The intent is never lost, though.

I am reminded of a memo written by a British diplomat in the early 1900's after his Minister had thrashed his office in rage at receiving what he felt was an outrageous letter from a foreign embassy. He wrote:

"My minister has asked me to inform you that he views with something akin to consternation the contents of your ... etc etc"

Aggressive response will always force an applicant onto the defensive, and will hand him a handy excuse which can then be posted on his web-site as evidence of JREF's lack of good faith with applicants. We will know it's only an excuse, the applicant will know deep down that he's using it as an excuse, but there's always an audience of undecided browsers there who may go no further when they see the reply, and will bad-mouth the JREF.

I don't see the point in giving people easy outs when they announce their intention to apply.

[Ducky]

Well, you know, I remember more than a decade ago when Randi was asking for pledges on various mailing lists I subscribed to in order to supplement his original $10,000. I found a reference to the challenge here. (http://groups.google.com/group/sci.skeptic/browse_frm/thread/20084a29bad41c15/11c53def9bb3a829?lnk=st&q=%22Randi%22+pledge+challenge+group%3Asci.skeptic&rnum=3&hl=en#11c53def9bb3a829)

It contains the following text:



Many of the people who made pledges were my friends and colleagues. I considered making a pledge myself, but I realized that I could not guarantee availability of the money on the salary of a junior academic.

I am not privy to the inner workings of the current million dollar challenge. I expect that it is set up to be squeaky clean, legally. I've seen statements that the million dollars is real money, invested in low-risk investments that don't produce much revenue. That's different from a pledge, so I suspect that, legally, the current challenge has nothing to do with this previous challenge, except that Randi's own $10,000 is included. I've also read here that the money isn't Randi's, such that he or his heirs get to keep it if the challenge is not won.

On the other hand, those pledges were an important, possibly a crucial part of the culture and history of the challenge. I think that, but for this community-building, there would not be a million dollar challenge today. And it was definitely the building of a community of like-minded individuals. Some people who could afford it pledged money. Others, such as myself, promoted Randi and worked to strengthen his reputation in the scientific community, getting him, for example, the opportunity to speak at the meeting that put the kibosh on Pons and Fleischman.

But let's forget all that. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that it were like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation or the Carnegie Foundation (or whatever it's called). Totally private, endowed by the personal wealth of an individual.

It would still be appropriate for people who have a love of skepticism and have watched and sometimes helped Randi's star rise to its current exhalted position, to be concerned with the face that JREF and it's associated people and organizations present to the rest of the world.

And I'm concerned. It's looking to me more like, not a community, or even a dictatorship, but a gang. I've elicited some of this gang behavior in another thread. It's not simply challenging the paranormal and going after charlatans and frauds, it's a turf war against the rival gang, which are called the "Woos."

Now, if that's what those who have the power over JREF want to happen, and it's just the Nietzschean will to power, well, that's what will happen.

I've seen it happen before; I was involved in almost the entire lifecycle of the Supercomputer Computations Research Institute. In that Institute, I saw many things as it aged: flailing about when the leader was incapacitated, tightening of ranks and hierarchy, increasing hostility to low-status members, emphasis on maintenance rather than growth, attempts at reorganization, and eventually, total collapse and disintegration.

Flame me if you will, but don't say I didn't tell you.



Okay, now THAT one I understood. I was struggling to understand the point of the other thread you reference, but that was concise. Thank you.

I also agree that what you saw happen at the Supercomputer Computations Research Institute needs to be avoided at all costs with the JREF.


Edited to add:

To clarify, I am not saying these things are happening, nor that they would. Just that that situation should be avoided at all costs.

[epepke]

Okay, now THAT one I understood. I was struggling to understand the point of the other thread you reference, but that was concise. Thank you.

Glad to be of service, and it's nice to know that you weren't just being a jerk.

But great "Bob," man, what do you expect when you niggle me when I'm still trying to figure things out?

[Ducky]

Glad to be of service, and it's nice to know that you weren't just being a jerk.

But great "Bob," man, what do you expect when you niggle me when I'm still trying to figure things out?



I'll never try to say I'm not a hothead from time to time...

:blush:

[kittynh]

well and the forum is just the forum. We are not privy to all that happens at JREF. We are not JREF. So when we sound like a gang, I don't think that applies to JREF.

[kittynh]

I'm thinking of the amazing guest list at the last TAM. You have to be pretty professional and pretty darn well liked to get such a diverse group come to speak. Mythbusters did not charge a fee to speak (and they usually do I am told). Kari came just because so many people wanted her to come! Now that's what makes Mr.Randi Amazing! I don't know any other man or organization that could put together a group of speakers like that. People LOVE that man, and respect JREF.

[delphi_ote]

I've been lurking around here for a few months. The only section I used to check was the "Challenge Applications" section. I didn't bother going through the other forums, not even this one. However, on this occassion, I felt I had to make a point.

I checked the threads here, and Mr. Kramer seems to have been very popular here. And though I did admire his promptness and dediction, in my opinion, his nature just did not suit the job. Sorry, someone has to be the first to say this... Though I did admire all that he did for the JREF, Mr. Kramer lost his temper very easily (just my opinion, though he did get better in the past 2-3 months). That job really needed a more patient person.

So, whoever the next person chosen for the job is, I request the JREF to choose a person who by nature is very patient and very courteous. Ideally I'd like these people to be like the "Customer Service Representatives" that we speak to on the phone. Even if the person on the phone shouts at them, and abuses them, they continue to be courteous or atleast patient. The person handling the job, should, in my opinion, always, come rain or shine, be 100% courteous and kind, and be *gasp* sympathetic to the applicant, and actually hope that the test is succesful under scientific observation.

Also, for the sake of something I call 'professionalism', the person should never opnely make assumptions about the applicant's mental health, or make any personal comments about the applicant in general, no matter how rude or insolent the applicant in general, or how obvious the state of applicant's mental health is.

Also, according to me, many files were prematurely closed by Mr. Kramer, when the applicant got difficult to handle, but in my opinion, that is not most professional either. The file should only be closed when there is a deadlock in negotiating the protocol, or if the applicant stops responding.

I sincerely hope that the JREF and Mr. Randi keep this in mind while choosing the next candidate. If Mr. Jeff Wagg is poised to take over the mantle, Mr. Wagg, I hope you do consider these points.

I know everyone loves Mr. Kramer here, and I might be bashed. But this is not to bash Mr. Kramer himself, but to just suggest what I hope the new person handling the job would be like. I hope there is at least one person who has noticed the things that I have noticed until now?

So when was your application rejected, Alf? ;)

[epepke]

well and the forum is just the forum. We are not privy to all that happens at JREF. We are not JREF. So when we sound like a gang, I don't think that applies to JREF.

It does when the moderators and insiders play, which I think they have. This thread is about Kramer, right?

[De_Bunk]

Alf...

Quote...

"So, whoever the next person chosen for the job is, I request the JREF to choose a person who by nature is very patient and very courteous..."

"Also, for the sake of something I call 'professionalism', the person should never opnely make assumptions about the applicant's mental health, or make any personal comments about the applicant in general..."



I think those two statements describe me perfectly...

The jobs mine...

DB

[Ducky]

DB:

You are quickly becoming my favorite "comic-relief" poster.

[De_Bunk]

Fowlsound..

You'd be surprised at how serious i can get...when i get my teeth into a real 'I believe what i claim' kook...

DB

[delphi_ote]

DB:

You are quickly becoming my favorite "comic-relief" poster.

Especially with that new avatar. I could laugh at that all day.

[steenkh]

Hopefully the next challenge officer will continue KRAMERs initiative and post updates to the forum.

[CFLarsen]

Exactly.

There is really no point in being angry in correspondance with the applicants. One could just tell them that for this or that reason their file is closed, or they will have to reapply, etc.

And because it is written correspondance, you'd think that would give one more time to craft a well-written and not angry response?
Answer the question: Would you be nice to a psychic surgeon?

[delphi_ote]

Especially with that new avatar. I could laugh at that all day.

Aww... it's gone! Damn.

[RSLancastr]

The mere starting of this thread was both cowardly and hubristic and whoever 'Alf' is (with his seagull-like behavior) he had no right to do it. 'Alf' is a zero factor in managing the Challenge applications and his hit-him-when-he's-gone screed should cause his face to burn with shame every time he thinks of it.Knot, I have to disagree with you there. Alf had every right to start the thread. As would anyone else.

We are ALL zero factors in this matter.In the decision, sure. But that's not what is going on here. I don't think that Alf (or any of the others who are speculating in this thread and elsewhere) are under the impression that they are making a decision. It's a discussion. In a discussion forum. I see nothing wrong with it.

Randi has never been known to consider wimpy conciliation as a valid choice for his own behavior.Nor do I recall Randi ever advocating that nobody offer an opinion. Which again, is what is going on here. And I don't think that "wimpy conciliation" is what anyone was describing here.

I think his disregard for the raving and frothing of the woos is one of the reasons we all love him so much.Agreed.

The SWIFT columns contain Randi's own words. How many of those commentaries show the abjectly submissive attitude that 'Alf' would impose on Kramer's replacement?Again, you seem to me to be setting up a strawman here. I saw nothing "abjectly submissive" in what Alf (or others, including myself) said.

Therefore, it seems to me that the last thing we should be doing is to act as if Randi wanted/wants someone with a different manner in handling Challenge applications.Again, I don't think anyone was acting that way. Alf (and others) were giving opinions as to how THEY thought and/or hoped the next Applicant Handler should handle given circumstances.

This isn't just a fun exercise in what-might-be. As Gayle said, it's acting as if Randi will never return to the helm of JREF and I, for one, cannot bear to even think of such a thing.Yet again, I have to disagree. The opinions Alf (and others) expressed would probably have been the same regardless of Randi's health. It's just that Randi's health has (possibly) delayed the selection of Kramer's replacement, thus leaving the door open for speculation and the offering of opinions on the subject. I think that's hardly "acting as if Randi will never return..."

After this, I'm not even going to give 'Alf' the minor satisfaction of thinking that his idiotic suggestions are worthy of the slightest consideration.Knot, I really think you're going overboard here. You disagree with Alf. That's fine. Your passionate support of what you believe Randi would want is admirable, but I don't see the need for all the insults.

[specious_reasons]

For the record, and I'm one of the people who criticized Kramer initially, I thought Kramer was doing a good job. I think he took the constructive criticisms to heart, and did make his replies and attitude more professional.

...and sometimes the caustic wit was revealed, nobody's perfect.

It's a tough job. You want to maintain a professional attitude, which includes being courteous as possible, but this is a challenge, and people will try to waste JREF's time and resources. They need to be brushed off, and Kramer had the toughness of character to do just that.

I wish Kramer all the best.

[NiallM]

Answer the question: Would you be nice to a psychic surgeon?
You're implying a false dichotomy here; that it is only possible to be "nice" or "not nice". There are many other possibilities. I would remain "professional". It's the best chance of exposing him/her.

[Flange Desire]

Knot, I have to disagree with you there. Alf had every right to start the thread. As would anyone else
...
SNIP
...
I don't see the need for all the insults.
Agreed.

[ChaoticLimbs]

I think I'd be out of my mind with frustration dealing with an applicant whose only claim was that he could move a potato with his finger. Wouldn't you?

That's the kind of claim he had to deal with. I figure with a million dollars put up, the JREF has every right to force applicants to jump through some hard hoops.
It's not the JREF million dollar giveaway.

I've been lurking a while, first time posting to the forums. From what I've seen though of challenge applicants, so far the claims have been overly vague or not even remotely paranormal (like our yo-yo dowser).

I only saw evidence of loss of temperment when Kramer told an applicant to provide affadavits or notarization and the applicant continued to make claims but fail to go through the hoop.

[WanderinWTF]

Okay, now THAT one I understood. I was struggling to understand the point of the other thread you reference, but that was concise. Thank you.

I also agree that what you saw happen at the Supercomputer Computations Research Institute needs to be avoided at all costs with the JREF.


Edited to add:

To clarify, I am not saying these things are happening, nor that they would. Just that that situation should be avoided at all costs.
hey my buddy fs do you have a super one if you do hook it up to mei can think real fast and store everything

[WanderinWTF]

For the record, and I'm one of the people who criticized Kramer initially, I thought Kramer was doing a good job. I think he took the constructive criticisms to heart, and did make his replies and attitude more professional.

...and sometimes the caustic wit was revealed, nobody's perfect.

It's a tough job. You want to maintain a professional attitude, which includes being courteous as possible, but this is a challenge, and people will try to waste JREF's time and resources. They need to be brushed off, and Kramer had the toughness of character to do just that.

I wish Kramer all the best.
when i first came here to post i knew that there was or is a person associated with the challenge that was mean to people the thought i was gettin was "what people do for a 1million ......" well who ever that person was that would think this would degrade people i call it lowering someones energy to build yours up to me this is not right thats why when i first came i knew it wasnt possible for anyone to get the money and thinkin about this i know that there was atleast one person that had the goods that took it really hard ;o(

[WanderinWTF]

Alf...

Quote...

"So, whoever the next person chosen for the job is, I request the JREF to choose a person who by nature is very patient and very courteous..."

"Also, for the sake of something I call 'professionalism', the person should never opnely make assumptions about the applicant's mental health, or make any personal comments about the applicant in general..."



I think those two statements describe me perfectly...

The jobs mine...

DB
me 2 wanna do it together maybe jr will let us that way there wont be 1 person in charge but 2 seems way better what do you think partner im more patient than anyone

[delphi_ote]

Who invited lunatic in here? This was a serious discussion.

[WanderinWTF]

Who invited lunatic in here? This was a serious discussion.
and what i said was verry serious not that you would understand

[nathan]

and what i said was verry serious not that you would understand
You'll probably find people understand you better if you write clearly. Your posts have no punctuation and thus make it very hard to descern your argument.

[WanderinWTF]

You'll probably find people understand you better if you write clearly. Your posts have no punctuation and thus make it very hard to descern your argument.
I don't wanna argue there's no gain doing that.

[NiallM]

and what i said was verry serious not that you would understand
It may have been "serious", but we tend to use punctuation around here, in case you didn't notice. Without punctuation your meanings are ambiguous.

[WanderinWTF]

I didn't want to alter what i was writing. I feel that when I put commas and periods and exlclamation marks I tend to change words to make it better for the reader.

[Moochie]

I don't wanna argue there's no gain doing that.

Well, if you want to be understood, you will need to do the hard yards, and get an education. At least in English.

I have no quarrel with you, but you do appear unintelligible much of the time.

M.

[WanderinWTF]

There are sometimes i just let it flow. I have always said if you think before you answer you could be lying.

[WanderinWTF]

Well, if you want to be understood, you will need to do the hard yards, and get an education. At least in English.

I have no quarrel with you, but you do appear unintelligible much of the time.

M.
I also gotta remember that im from California. I like to use messenger its easier for me.

[Gr8wight]

I didn't want to alter what i was writing. I feel that when I put commas and periods and exlclamation marks I tend to change words to make it better for the reader.

And you wouldn't want to do anything to make things clearer for the reader, would you?

You know, it is possible that you might have something of value to say, but nobody will ever know because your posts are completely unreadable. Right now, you are doing nothing but cluttering up the forums with unintelligible garbage. I have resisted this so far, but you leave me no choice but to put you on ignore. Not because I disagree with what you have to say, but because I simply cannot spare the time trying to figure out WTF it is you are saying.

[petre]

And you wouldn't want to do anything to make things clearer for the reader, would you?

You know, it is possible that you might have something of value to say, but nobody will ever know because your posts are completely unreadable. Right now, you are doing nothing but cluttering up the forums with unintelligible garbage. I have resisted this so far, but you leave me no choice but to put you on ignore. Not because I disagree with what you have to say, but because I simply cannot spare the time trying to figure out WTF it is you are saying.

Agreed, his most recent (punctuated) posts were indeed clearer, and probably greatly decreased the number of people that simply ignored them.

[WanderinWTF]

Agreed, his most recent (punctuated) posts were indeed clearer, and probably greatly decreased the number of people that simply ignored them.
Petre!!! Have you thought about helping me with that protocol thing? Guess what petre last week I learned a Kung Fu technique in about 10 mins. When i was done I felt like i learned over 100yrs of training. It has made me so fast in my one had its unbelievable quick, also with the same movement i make this shadow look so real it scared the testosterone out of my Boy. When i did it i was testing how long he could sit in the back seat of my car while i was doing it. He was on the phone at the time, so heacted like he didnt see it. i knewhe was using everything inside of him to block out what he was seeing and feeling. Took him about 45 seconds to get out of the car, I was laffin so hard,however he wasnt he didnt find it amusing at all. First thing he said was "That offended me don't do that again. Also I used this technique on 2 differant people first one i was litterly faster with my 1 hand than he was with both of his. What I mean is that i would block both of his hands and hit all my counters with my one hand using this technique. I generally would just touch him with my counters going to the heart and liver and lung each time, not to mention he has atleast 4" of reach on me. One session lasted i would say about 5 mins. Let me know what you think pls, also that motion i learned i think i know where it came from and the research i did showed no knowledge about this missing temple like the techniques used there, however they referred to it by a name.With what i think the technique could be used for makes a whole lot of sense.

[delphi_ote]

and what i said was verry serious not that you would understand

Funny how you knew exactly who I was talking about. It's almost like you're perfectly aware of the fact that you're acting like a jerk. Some might even suspect that you're doing it intentionally.

I know you don't have any problem harassing a woman who's lost her child (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1465098), but could you maybe try to act like an adult in here? Or maybe just keep your ravings confined to your own personal thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52652)?

[petre]

Petre!!! Have you thought about helping me with that protocol thing? Guess what petre last week I learned a Kung Fu technique in about 10 mins. When i was done I felt like i learned over 100yrs of training. It has made me so fast in my one had its unbelievable quick, also with the same movement i make this shadow look so real it scared the testosterone out of my Boy. When i did it i was testing how long he could sit in the back seat of my car while i was doing it. He was on the phone at the time, so heacted like he didnt see it. i knewhe was using everything inside of him to block out what he was seeing and feeling. Took him about 45 seconds to get out of the car, I was laffin so hard,however he wasnt he didnt find it amusing at all. First thing he said was "That offended me don't do that again. Also I used this technique on 2 differant people first one i was litterly faster with my 1 hand than he was with both of his. What I mean is that i would block both of his hands and hit all my counters with my one hand using this technique. I generally would just touch him with my counters going to the heart and liver and lung each time, not to mention he has atleast 4" of reach on me. One session lasted i would say about 5 mins. Let me know what you think pls, also that motion i learned i think i know where it came from and the research i did showed no knowledge about this missing temple like the techniques used there, however they referred to it by a name.With what i think the technique could be used for makes a whole lot of sense.

I'd made a suggestion at a protocol earlier, but I don't feel like digging for it at the moment.

I think focusing on one thing would be most beneficial to you now. Try to think of one thing that you could demonstrate, ideally having the following qualaties:

1. Paranormal (seems an obvious requirement, but the more obviously paranormal the better).
2. Self-evident (a result which is clear and requires no judging, ideally something that would be obvious on videotape).
3. Repeatable (that is, it occurs "on demand" and as intended).

Then I will attempt to construct a protocol that might be accepted for you.

[xenxabar]

Uh, turning back to the subject at hand, is there any word on a new challenge facilitator? Jeff? I am really missing Kramer's posts of the communications he had with applicants and potential applicants.

[Ririon]

Uh, turning back to the subject at hand, is there any word on a new challenge facilitator? Jeff? I am really missing Kramer's posts of the communications he had with applicants and potential applicants.
I assume we are waiting for mr Randi to get well enough to do a few job interviews. (I miss KRAMER and the Application thread, too.)

[rjh01]

Well if we are all missing the Application thread why do not someone invent an application and the response?

[Hastur]

I don't think we'll hear of any decision until Randi returns.

[petre]

Well if we are all missing the Application thread why do not someone invent an application and the response?

DEAR MR NEW-KRAMER I AM SENDING TO YOU ABOUT MY POWER YOU WILL FEEL THE MIGHT OF CRZIXTYBORBOS WHOSE ANCIENT POWER WILL AMAZE ALL I NEED U PROVIDE 30 TONS OF CEMENT A POUND OF PLUTONIUM AND SOME CHOPSTICKS IF YOU CANT FIND CHOPSTICKS I THINK I CAN BORROW SOME FROM A FRIEND LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU WILL SEND THE MILLION
KTHXBYE

Someone else can handle the response.

[Jeff Wagg]

Don't worry, we haven't forgotten about the challenge. :)

Thanks for your patience.

[drfrank]

DEAR MR NEW-KRAMER I AM SENDING TO YOU ABOUT MY POWER YOU WILL FEEL THE MIGHT OF CRZIXTYBORBOS WHOSE ANCIENT POWER WILL AMAZE ALL I NEED U PROVIDE 30 TONS OF CEMENT A POUND OF PLUTONIUM AND SOME CHOPSTICKS IF YOU CANT FIND CHOPSTICKS I THINK I CAN BORROW SOME FROM A FRIEND LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU WILL SEND THE MILLION
KTHXBYE

Someone else can handle the response.

lol that's great :D However, you did forget to address the application directly to Randi ;)

OK, how's about this for a stock response?
_________________

{polite greeting}
Dear Kthxbye,

Thank you for your interest in the JREF $1 million dollar challenge.

{rule clarifications}
Please state clearly what effect you intend to demonstrate. Also, be aware that you are responsible for providing any materials required for your test.

{pleading for sane testing protocol with obvious madman}
Is there any way you could demonstrate the effect without the need for a pound of plutonium and 30 tons of concrete? Could, for example, a potato and a lump of candle wax be just as effective?

We have no problem with the use of chopsticks, however.

{appeal to get psychiatric help}
Please provide 3 signed affadavits from people who will confirm that you do not wear your underwear on your head (under your tin foil hat, obviously), and that they don't feel deeply disturbed simply by being in the same room as you.

{lying so flagrant that it's in danger of ripping a hole in the space-time continuum}
I look forward to hearing from you in future, so that we can get your application dealt with as soon as possible.

Yours sincerely,

Kramer Mark II

[Gr8wight]

Kramer Mark II

Love this. I think, regardless of who fills the position, we should call that person "Kramer Mark II" for at least six months.

[Mojo]

Love this. I think, regardless of who fills the position, we should call that person "Kramer Mark II" for at least six months.Surely that should read "KRAMER mark II"?

[delphi_ote]

Love this. I think, regardless of who fills the position, we should call that person "Kramer Mark II" for at least six months.
Or however long it takes them to get really annoyed by it. :D

[Gr8wight]

Surely that should read "KRAMER mark II"?

Hey, I just copied what drfrank wrote, OK?

[Flange Desire]

DEAR MR NEW-KRAMER I AM SENDING TO YOU ABOUT MY POWER YOU WILL FEEL THE MIGHT OF CRZIXTYBORBOS WHOSE ANCIENT POWER WILL AMAZE ALL I NEED U PROVIDE 30 TONS OF CEMENT A POUND OF PLUTONIUM AND SOME CHOPSTICKS IF YOU CANT FIND CHOPSTICKS I THINK I CAN BORROW SOME FROM A FRIEND LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU WILL SEND THE MILLION
KTHXBYE

Someone else can handle the response.

Please edit and resend your application.

You will get the million just as soon as you provide all the required woo theory, vis -
. How you alone have received crzixtyborbos' power, and why you were chosen.
. The 'real meaning' of this legacy, and how it relates to the future of human kind.
. It's relationship vis-a-vis your granny's undies, and all the other things that we would not expect it to be related to.
. The associated CT regarding the suppression of your theory.

WRT application format and style, don't forget to -
. Always use ALL CAPS.
. Always use woo-speak.
. Translate with BableFish using the standard English->Urdu->Finnish->Jive path.
. Use a wooish invented name and related signature.
. Do NOT spell-check.

[Flange Desire]

Please edit and resend your application.

Forgot to mention (but assume you already know this) -
Your application MUST exceed 500 words, and the use of clear and concise terminology WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

[Blue Mountain]

Surely that should read "KRAMER mark II"?

Maybe "KRAMER marked for life"?

[rjh01]

{polite greeting}
Dear Kthxbye,

Thank you for your interest in the JREF $1 million dollar challenge.

{rule clarifications}
Please state clearly what effect you intend to demonstrate. Also, be aware that you are responsible for providing any materials required for your test.

{pleading for sane testing protocol with obvious madman}
Is there any way you could demonstrate the effect without the need for a pound of plutonium and 30 tons of concrete? Could, for example, a potato and a lump of candle wax be just as effective?

We have no problem with the use of chopsticks, however.

{appeal to get psychiatric help}
Please provide 3 signed affadavits from people who will confirm that you do not wear your underwear on your head (under your tin foil hat, obviously), and that they don't feel deeply disturbed simply by being in the same room as you.

{lying so flagrant that it's in danger of ripping a hole in the space-time continuum}
I look forward to hearing from you in future, so that we can get your application dealt with as soon as possible.

Yours sincerely,

Kramer Mark II
Here is the response

Dear KRAMER MARK II

You ask for some strange reason to state what I can demonstrate. I can demonstation that I am a theory neclear phsysics professer. I can cause a neclear explosion with the concrete. The plotonium is just a catalist.

Is there any way you could demonstrate the effect without the need for a pound of plutonium and 30 tons of concrete?
No I will not do so. It is beneath my soul to do so. I also expect you to provide me with the materal. ANY FAILURE ON YOUR PART WILL BE PROOF YOU DO NOT WANT TO PAY ME AND I WILL BE MOST UPSET.

Please provide 3 signed affadavits from people who will confirm that you do not wear your underwear on your head (under your tin foil hat, obviously), and that they don't feel deeply disturbed simply by being in the same room as you.
I certify I am same.
signed
Me

I certify that I an sane.
signed
myself

I wear nornal clothes
signed
I

Now that I have provided theee affadavits please give me my MONEY.

I look forward to hearing from you in future, so that we can get your application dealt with as soon as possible.

Well here I is.

[rjh01]

{polite greeting}
Dear Kthxbye,

Thank you for your interest in the JREF $1 million dollar challenge.

{rule clarifications}
Please state clearly what effect you intend to demonstrate. Also, be aware that you are responsible for providing any materials required for your test.

{pleading for sane testing protocol with obvious madman}
Is there any way you could demonstrate the effect without the need for a pound of plutonium and 30 tons of concrete? Could, for example, a potato and a lump of candle wax be just as effective?

We have no problem with the use of chopsticks, however.

{appeal to get psychiatric help}
Please provide 3 signed affadavits from people who will confirm that you do not wear your underwear on your head (under your tin foil hat, obviously), and that they don't feel deeply disturbed simply by being in the same room as you.

{lying so flagrant that it's in danger of ripping a hole in the space-time continuum}
I look forward to hearing from you in future, so that we can get your application dealt with as soon as possible.

Yours sincerely,

Kramer Mark II
Here is the response

Dear KRAMER MARK II

You ask for some strange reason to state what I can demonstrate. I can demonstation that I am a theory neclear phsysics professer. I can cause a neclear explosion with the concrete. The plotonium is just a catalist.

Is there any way you could demonstrate the effect without the need for a pound of plutonium and 30 tons of concrete?
No I will not do so. It is beneath my soul to do so. I also expect you to provide me with the materal. ANY FAILURE ON YOUR PART WILL BE PROOF YOU DO NOT WANT TO PAY ME AND I WILL BE MOST UPSET.

Please provide 3 signed affadavits from people who will confirm that you do not wear your underwear on your head (under your tin foil hat, obviously), and that they don't feel deeply disturbed simply by being in the same room as you.
I certify I am same.
signed
Me

I certify that I an sane.
signed
myself

I wear nornal clothes
signed
I

Now that I have provided theee affadavits please give me my MONEY.

I look forward to hearing from you in future, so that we can get your application dealt with as soon as possible.

Well here I is.

[Jeff Wagg]

I have my autoresponder set to: READ THE FAQ.

[Ririon]

I have my autoresponder set to: READ THE FAQ.
So, there's no point asking you when you think KRAMER mkII might arrive, is there?

[George152]

We lose more BS detectors this way
sigh

[davefoc]

DEAR MR NEW-KRAMER I AM SENDING TO YOU ABOUT MY POWER YOU WILL FEEL THE MIGHT OF CRZIXTYBORBOS WHOSE ANCIENT POWER WILL AMAZE ALL I NEED U PROVIDE 30 TONS OF CEMENT A POUND OF PLUTONIUM AND SOME CHOPSTICKS IF YOU CANT FIND CHOPSTICKS I THINK I CAN BORROW SOME FROM A FRIEND LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU WILL SEND THE MILLION
KTHXBYE

Someone else can handle the response.
Perhaps we need a response from the evil Kramer:

Dear moron KTHXBYE,

As you might have discerned by reading the rules or the FAQ if you could muster an intelligence higher than a piece of granite, you must supply your own materials for your test.

Also, to the degree that I was able to make any sense out of your mindless babble I did not find anything indicating what your actual claim was. Undoubtedly, given the non-existance of your ability to reason rationally you will not understand what is meant by this, but I will try to explain it to you. A claim includes a description of a procedure by which you will demonstrate your alleged paranormal ability.

Of course you are probably a self deluded imbecile and you have arrived at your view that you can demonstrate some kind of paranormal effect without the slightest touch of a rational thought. However, if you can provide us affidavits from three other peoiple attesting your ability to demonstrate a paranormal effect we will begin the process of coming to an agreement on a protocol with you. Please note that we would like the affidavits to be from individuals such as doctors, scientists or engineers however the key requirement is that the affidavits not be from deluded morons such as yourself.

Yours truly and good luck on your test,

Evil Kramer

[davefoc]

Perhaps a response from helpful Kramer would be better:

Dear KTHXBYE,

We were pleased to receive your letter. We hope that we can be of help with the demonstration of your claim of a paranormal capability.

Please note that we generally don't supply materials to potential claimants but if your are having difficulty rounding up the things you need we will do our best to assist you with that.

The thirty tons of cement and the plutonium are no problems, but could you provide some more details about the chopsticks? (Japanese or Chinese, wood or plastic, color, for cooking or for eating etc.). Given all the different kinds of chopsticks it might be best if you could supply those. Although we could provide a selection for you to choose from if you would prefer.

Please excuse me for this, but we usually require that a potential claimant describe in more detail what he proposes to demonstrate in his test. Is it possible you could be a little more specific on this? We understand that this may be a bit of a burden so don't worry too much about this. You could just give us a rough idea of what you are going to do and this will suffice. Of course if this is still too difficult then feel free to just give us an explanation of the theory behind your paranormal claim. Actually describing what it is won't be necessary.

Yours truly and good luck on your test,
Helpful Kramer