Grizzly Man

[Psiload]

Not to be missed.

The diary of a madman. Actually, more like the video journal of a certifiable lunatic.

Here's the outline- Delusional and pathologically self-absorbed animal lover realizes his life's dream of becoming "one with the bears" after he travels through the digestive tract of one.

Equal parts tragedy and hilarity.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/

[Blackwell]

Not to be missed.

The diary of a madman. Actually, more like the video journal of a certifiable lunatic.

Here's the outline- Delusional and pathologically self-absorbed animal lover realizes his life's dream of becoming "one with the bears" after he travels through the digestive tract of one.

Equal parts tragedy and hilarity.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/

Yeah, it's a fascinating story. And even more tragic that his girlfriend also ended up being killed because of his delusions.

[rwguinn]

Yeah, it's a fascinating story. And even more tragic that his girlfriend also ended up being killed because of his delusions.

I think you need to further investigate this generalization.
She chose to be there, under his rules, and she was aware of the volitility of bears, from what I know about the situation.
She was no sidewalk-raised do-gooder. She was described as a "knowlegable outdoorswoman".
In my kneck of the woods, that means you are aware of the risks that wild critters and isolation present. But then, I'm from New Mexico, Colorado, and Texas...

[Hellbound]

And quietly, unoticed by the majority, in tiny little baby steps, evolution creeps forward...

:D

[Blackwell]

I think you need to further investigate this generalization.
She chose to be there, under his rules, and she was aware of the volitility of bears, from what I know about the situation.
She was no sidewalk-raised do-gooder. She was described as a "knowlegable outdoorswoman".
In my kneck of the woods, that means you are aware of the risks that wild critters and isolation present. But then, I'm from New Mexico, Colorado, and Texas...

Do you think she would have been there (in that situation, or a similar one) if it weren't for Treadwell? I can't imagine what would make a "knowlegable outdoorswoman" who was aware of the volatility of bears decide that camping among them would be a good idea. From what I've read of Treadwell, he was a charismatic and convincing character who had a decade-long run of good luck in dealing with grizzlies; perhaps she was convinced that luck would continue.

[rwguinn]

Do you think she would have been there (in that situation, or a similar one) if it weren't for Treadwell? I can't imagine what would make a "knowlegable outdoorswoman" who was aware of the volatility of bears decide that camping among them would be a good idea. From what I've read of Treadwell, he was a charismatic and convincing character who had a decade-long run of good luck in dealing with grizzlies; perhaps she was convinced that luck would continue.

Well, if so, see Huntsman's post above.
Otherwise, I cannot consider him to blame for her decision...Sorry

[Taarkin]

It's worth it just for the scene where he cusses at the fox in a cutesey voice for stealing his hat.

[JohnboyMN]

It's worth it just for the scene where he cusses at the fox in a cutesey voice for stealing his hat.

And if that doesn't get you, the scene where he breaks into tears of joy after dipping his finger in bear poop certainly will.:covereyes

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Ironically he was killed by the bear that he repeatedly called 'grumpy' and 'grouchy' the Bear got tired of the on camera insults.

[Psiload]

I loved how his delusions of grandeur led him to the belief that he was single-handedly protecting the bears in Katmai National Park from poachers.

Katmai National Park covers an area of over 4 million acres. Imagine a person donning a Superman cape, watching out for wrongdoers from their front porch, and then claiming sole responsibility for the low crime rates in their entire home state, providence, etc...

That should give you a good idea of just how deeply Treadwell had fallen into his "Protector of the Bears" delusion. One single guy, who was self-admittedly "hiding" in the park (hiding from The National Park Service, because he was illegaly camping) was under the impression that his presence, and his presence alone, was preventing the poaching of a two-thousand-strong population of bears spread out over a 4 million acre plot of land. :rolleyes:

The bear that killed Treadwell and his "girlfriend", and another bear that was found in the area, had to be put down by National Park Service officials after the attacks were discovered.

So that brings the score to....

Bear deaths attributable to the actions of Timothy Treadwell- 2

Bear deaths attributable to the actions of Psiload- 0

All hail Psiload! Protector of the Bears Extraordinnaire!

***edited to correct error regarding size of Ketami National Park*** No animals were harmed during the editing of this post... because we love them... yes we do... we love Mr. Grumpy and Mrs. Fluffypants... we love them so much... yes we do

[HighRiser]

I wonder if either or both of them are eligible for the Darwin Award? Seems a fitting rememberance.

[Cleon]

Does anyone have a link to the recording of the guy's death? Apparently the camcorder was turned on (with lens cap on), and recorded the sounds of the entire incident.

[Ducky]

I thought this was going to be a thread about Grizzly Adams.

[Rachel1031]

Does anyone have a link to the recording of the guy's death? Apparently the camcorder was turned on (with lens cap on), and recorded the sounds of the entire incident.

According to the movie, the only recording is in the possession of Timothy Treadwell's former partner, who has not listened to it. I would be very surprised it it became available on the internet.

It is a great movie. Werner Herzog is a genius, and I don't think he was too harsh with his subject.

- Rachel

[Rachel1031]

Has anyone seen "Incident at Loch Ness"? It is a Werner Herzog "mockumentory". Pretty funny:)

[WildCat]

Does anyone have a link to the recording of the guy's death? Apparently the camcorder was turned on (with lens cap on), and recorded the sounds of the entire incident.
I don't think it was ever released.

I watched it last night, all I can say is WOW! As Dan Quayle once said, "What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."

There was a thread here after he was eaten, don't know if it survived or not.

[Dogdoctor]

I saw parts of that doccumentory. I guess he wasted his life since his death caused people to kill another bear. Also I thought how horrible that he got his girlfriend eaten by a bear too.

[LTC8K6]

He was harming the bears by making then a little bit more used to being near humans.

As one person on the show said, he thought they were people in bear suits.

You could see how the reality of the absolute cruelty of nature would crack his view of the world. He could barely deal with the deaths of the animals.

[Dancing David]

Not to be missed.

The diary of a madman. Actually, more like the video journal of a certifiable lunatic.

Here's the outline- Delusional and pathologically self-absorbed animal lover realizes his life's dream of becoming "one with the bears" after he travels through the digestive tract of one.

Equal parts tragedy and hilarity.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/

Very sad that he dragged down his girl friend with him, sure appears to be untreated bipolar disorder.

Very disturbing, reminds me of crisis work and how delicate the human condition is.

The really telling stuff starts when he gets upset over the fox steals his hat, the crescendo is reached when he is ranting about the drought and then the coda when he thinks he is going to spend the winter without supplies.

[Dancing David]

I think you need to further investigate this generalization.
She chose to be there, under his rules, and she was aware of the volitility of bears, from what I know about the situation.
She was no sidewalk-raised do-gooder. She was described as a "knowlegable outdoorswoman".
In my kneck of the woods, that means you are aware of the risks that wild critters and isolation present. But then, I'm from New Mexico, Colorado, and Texas...

Family and friends often try to protect thier mentaly ill family emebers, she had talked him into leaving before they bacame bear chow. That is what scares me all the time as a crisis worker, people get used to thier friends being crazy and they try to save them or help them. Then they end up tolerating dangerous situations without even realizing it.

She was supposedly very afraid of the bears.

[Psiload]

Very sad that he dragged down his girl friend with him, sure appears to be untreated bipolar disorder.

Very disturbing, reminds me of crisis work and how delicate the human condition is.

The really telling stuff starts when he gets upset over the fox steals his hat, the crescendo is reached when he is ranting about the drought and then the coda when he thinks he is going to spend the winter without supplies. How about when he tries to stack the rocks in the stream to build a salmon run in order to feed the bears, and then two scenes later he's ranting about the evil of man's encroachment into the natural habitat of the bears. A few scenes after that he's insisting that a certain bear, "...would be lost without me."

Thirteen years with the bears and Timothy Treadwell seems to have completely missed this most obvious FACT about bears:

Human love is to bear, as fish is to bicycle.

[patchbunny]

Delusional and pathologically self-absorbed animal lover realizes his life's dream of becoming "one with the bears" after he travels through the digestive tract of one.
That's the nicest one-line description of a movie I've seen since a newspaper ran this one about The Wizard of Oz: "A young woman is transported to a magical land where she kills the first person she meets, then teams up with three strangers and goes off to kill again."

[ChristineR]

Didn't they destroy the recording? I thought that was in the movie. Haven't had a chance to see it, just heard a piece about it.

[JohnboyMN]

Didn't they destroy the recording? I thought that was in the movie. Haven't had a chance to see it, just heard a piece about it.

In the movie, Herzog was listening to the recording through an earphone. We don't get to hear any of it.

After he listens for a while, he tells the woman (sorry, don't know her name) that she should destroy the tape because no one should ever hear it again.

[LTC8K6]

Later on, she says that she hasn't destroyed it, I believe.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...
After he listens for a while, he tells the woman (sorry, don't know her name) that she should destroy the tape because no one should ever hear it again.

That disturbs me. I can understand keeping it under wraps out of respect for family/friends, but the arrogance to presume to know what is right for others to hear, or not, bothers me.

[atari24]

That disturbs me. I can understand keeping it under wraps out of respect for family/friends, but the arrogance to presume to know what is right for others to hear, or not, bothers me.

If there was an audio recording of someone I cared deeply about getting killed in a very unpleasent way, and I watched Hertzog listen to it with the same reactions he had in the film, and then he told me I should destroy it... I just do not see any arrogance in that at all. I would be glad for someone else to listen to it to let me know how awful it is.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

If there was an audio recording of someone I cared deeply about getting killed in a very unpleasent way, and I watched Hertzog listen to it with the same reactions he had in the film, and then he told me I should destroy it... I just do not see any arrogance in that at all. I would be glad for someone else to listen to it to let me know how awful it is.

That would be Hertzog telling the family/friends, "You don't want to listen to this." Makes sense. The way it was worded though it made it sound like Hertzog felt no one should be able to listen to it, ever.

[atari24]

I think that is what Hertzog said. He said she should destroy it because it will be like the elephant in her living room. He seems to say this for her own well being. There's plenty of other graphic, disturbing sounds and images out there for all the other people in the world who enjoy such things.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I think that is what Hertzog said. He said she should destroy it because it will be like the elephant in her living room. He seems to say this for her own well being. There's plenty of other graphic, disturbing sounds and images out there for all the other people in the world who enjoy such things.

From a "making the monkey stop shrieking" standpoint I can understand this. My thinking of keeping it available in some form or another would be for forensic experts, animal behaviorist, etc. There would be some value to the tape, if nothing else to stand as chilling reminder of the utter neutrality of nature.

[Jesus Baby Daddy]

I wonder if either or both of them are eligible for the Darwin Award? Seems a fitting rememberance.

That's my thinking too. I think this happend a few years ago didn't it? If not I nominate them!
Who's worse? An Idiot? or the Idiot that follow's an Idiot?

All opinions aside, it is a tragedy and I feel bad that I joke about it.

Then again, no I don't. :D

[LordoftheLeftHand]

It was like watching a car accident. I didn't want to watch it. I really didn't. I was flipping through the channels and happened to catch a few seconds of it. Next thing I knew I had seen the whole thing.

Disturbing.

LLH

[Jas]

I'm surprised he didn't get a Darwin Award. The guy was known for years before his death as a complete nutter who was going to get himself and others killed.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345426053/sr=8-1/qid=1141240670/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6581035-1853651?%5Fencoding=UTF8

CHeck out the first review. I remember him being roundly criticized for this book (one of my biology profs had worked as a bear biologist). I don't think anyone was surprised that this happened, including the first reviewer. I would say she qualifies for the million, but it was inevitable.

[pipelineaudio]

I want to take a little issue with the "luck" statements above.

Lets say 100 participants of this forum each went and THWAPED a female grizzly in the nose (with her cub there even) the way Treadwell did

(Dont worry the irony of "protecting bears" by thwaping them on the nose is not lost on me)

If FIVE people came out of it without being mauled, I might call that luck

If ten people came out without getting perforated, I'd call it AMAZING coincidence

If fifty people came out still boweled, I'd say praise ja-he-sus, howleylooyah!

Luck played a minor role in any of this, I mean the guy did this crap constantly! How did he accomplish these stupendous feats? Did moohammud cause Djins to make magical shields around Tim ?

Not even

As far as I can tell, he what bushmen in the area call "going cowboy". I didnt know about this except for some brief clip on the discovery channel about a seismologist who had to work near polar bears a lot. But just recently my parents were running the education dept at the Eagle River nature center in Alaska and I heard the "going cowboy" thing again.

Apparently, its a way of behaving that *from a distance* is what the bears can interpret as other bears or something. Whatever it is, it can keep the bears from charging. A few extra brave souls would take money from tourists to actually go up and touch a bear.

I was pretty skeptical about this, since bears arent really social animals, so what behaviour could they naturally have that would allow touching like that? But my mom said they do get somewhat crowded when a bunch of bears are at a salmon run. Still....

But I have seen my mom's pics

I guess from all that verbal flatulence, it wasnt luck that kept that misguided egomaniac alive. My mom says, if the bear was hungry enough or tough enough to eat another bear ( happens all the time), thats likely what happened to Timmy. Same as behaving like a human wont stop you from getting stomped by a bully I guess.

As for the girl? She got what she wanted, really. Lets see " I think I'll go run around with an egomaniac who yells at bears in a flamboyantly gay voice. WHile he taunts them I'll hang. "

You wouldnt catch me out there without an AK-47 or something.

[zakur]

Here is an amusing review (http://www.joerogan.net/main.php?archives=1&article=44092) of the film by Joe Rogan.

Well, this guy had some friends, and they were just perfect. Right out of a f*cking Cohen brothers script. You couldn’t write something better than these people. They just fit in like magic.

His ex-“girlfriend” was one of my favorites. I use the word “girlfriend” in quotes because one of the things about the “grizzly man,” was that he was as gay as a room full of dicks. He has this one hysterical rant in the movie where he’s walking along, asking the camera why he doesn’t do so well with the ladies.

Oh, I don’t know… maybe the fact that you live in the f*cking wilderness with giant scary monsters? Chicks usually aren’t into that. That, and maybe the whole gay thing. Generally, I think those are two things chicks like to avoid.

I mean think about it, ladies, if one of your friends called you up and said, “Hey, I want to set you up with this guy, he’s gay, and he lives in the woods with scary monsters.”

You would have to start questioning whether or not that person is really your friend, wouldn’t you?

[deanerk]

I saw most of this I guess the other night on the Discovery Channel. Was anyone else incredibly annoyed that there were commercials every 5 minutes? It was driving me nuts! I guess i need to go rent it and see it from start to finish so I don't have to yell at the TV and Discovery Channel for their poor editing job. I should have kept count of the number of commercial interuptions.

Anyway, I was amused to hear that his fall into lunacy may have been triggered by the fact that, in his early acting days, he lost the role on Cheers to Woody Harrelson. How bizarre... Like I said, I haven't seen the movie in its entirety, so I suppose I don't know the whole story.

[Psiload]

I saw most of this I guess the other night on the Discovery Channel. Was anyone else incredibly annoyed that there were commercials every 5 minutes? It was driving me nuts! I guess i need to go rent it and see it from start to finish so I don't have to yell at the TV and Discovery Channel for their poor editing job. I should have kept count of the number of commercial interuptions.

Anyway, I was amused to hear that his fall into lunacy may have been triggered by the fact that, in his early acting days, he lost the role on Cheers to Woody Harrelson. How bizarre... Like I said, I haven't seen the movie in its entirety, so I suppose I don't know the whole story. Ya gotta love DVR...

I was mesmerized by by the antics of that looney toon Treadwell, and it would have been sheer torture to have the constant commercials interrupting that carnival of human oddities. Even FFing throught the ads, it still took me two hours to watch it, and when it ended, I swear I wish it would've gone on for another two hours.

As far as the 'Woody form Cheers' claim...

yeah, I buy that about as much as I believe his tales about protecting the bears from "gangs of poachers with machine guns."

This was obviously a man who made frequent trips across the fantasy/reality border.

[LTC8K6]

Who knows how many times he touched a bear's nose and got run off, or almost got eaten? Or, how many times he couldn't get near a bear because it wouldn't allow him to? Those parts could have been edited out or never filmed in the first place.

This guy was not going to show anything like that if it happened.

[ZirconBlue]

I'm surprised he didn't get a Darwin Award. The guy was known for years before his death as a complete nutter who was going to get himself and others killed.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345426053/sr=8-1/qid=1141240670/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6581035-1853651?%5Fencoding=UTF8

CHeck out the first review. I remember him being roundly criticized for this book (one of my biology profs had worked as a bear biologist). I don't think anyone was surprised that this happened, including the first reviewer. I would say she qualifies for the million, but it was inevitable.

Look at the 4-star review from "Ms. Starfire". It includes this ironic gem (bolding mine):

It is hard to believe that one might become so consumed by these beautiful but ferocious bears.

[Jon.]

For another movie about a nutbar and his obsession with bears, check out Project Grizzly (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117395/).

That guy was seriously obsessed. Great movie, and it even inspired an episode of The Simpsons.

[El Greco]

Of course had the movie been shot before his death or even if somehow he was forced to abandon wilderness and pursue a more mundane job, then we'd most probably have another "Gorillas In The Mist". There have been many people who have done stupid things living very close to gorillas, chimpanzees, wolves, etc. Up to a point it's just the outcome that determines the reputation.

[...JR]

Has anyone seen "Incident at Loch Ness"? It is a Werner Herzog "mockumentory". Pretty funny:)


being a fan of mr. herzog i've seen almost all of his films, and this one was pretty funny, except i knew the "real deal" before the film started, so the whole "is it real or not" aspect of the film was lost on me

plus the commentary is hilarious with werner walking out "pissed"

[MWare]

Bump

I've been hoping someone would post about this. I haven't had time to read all the posts here yet, but the movie definitely got me thinking about a lot of stuff. I'll be back when I've got a bit more time to see what you guys thought.

[Psiload]

Some apparently attention-starved blockhead has posted what is claimed to be the audio recording of the attack. As much as I hate to indulge this sort of foolishness, I'm going to link it here because it's just too hilarious to miss:

http://media.putfile.com/Tim-Treadwell-bear-attack

You can hear the person blowing across the mic to make the “wind” effect. You can even hear them inhaling at regular intervals before the next “gust”. According to the report by Park officials at the scene, Treadwell’s camera was found inside the tent… so how are we hearing strong “wind”, yet we don’t hear the sounds of the tent flapping?

The bear growling sounds were probably taken from old reruns of Gentle Ben or Grizzly Adams. They're right on cue, and they don't fit the "action" at all.

The screaming voices are priceless… a performance that would be laughed off the stage of a grade school play, and it’s painfully obvious that the voices were recorded indoors.

I’ll say this though. This performance is every bit as convincing as Tim Treadwell’s portrayal of a competent wildlife expert.

[Polaris]

Has anyone seen "Incident at Loch Ness"? It is a Werner Herzog "mockumentory". Pretty funny:)

Watched it the other day - yes, the man is a genius. I wonder if Zack Penn was playing along with the joke or if he was the butt unknowingly (I have my doubts the guy responsible for Inspector Gadget could be that astute).

How odd that the "sonar operator" comes off as the most down-to-earth character in the film?

Worth it for the cryptozoologist alone - "where is all the non-evidence?!" Get the DVD and watch the interviews.

[Gravy]

For a VERY different take on the man-grizzly interface, I highly recommend picking up "Project Grizzly." http://www.projectgrizzly.net/
The website makes it look like a joke. It's not. This guy is as intense as they come, and seeing him test the various suit designs is hilarious.

[Polaris]

For a VERY different take on the man-grizzly interface, I highly recommend picking up "Project Grizzly." http://www.projectgrizzly.net/
The website makes it look like a joke. It's not. This guy is as intense as they come, and seeing him test the various suit designs is hilarious.

That the same guy that they shoot arrows at and run into with a car? I want one of those suits, man!

[LTC8K6]

Too bad Hurtubise turned out to be a super idiotic woo.....

[SPQR]

Grizzly Man just pissed me off. :mad:

From the bear that ate Treadwell having to be killed, completely his fault BTW, to the interviews with his pretentious friends, this movie was 2 hours of straight making me angry.

Treadwell did nothing but put those bears in danger from the moment he showed up. If only his remains had never been found.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Not just the bear that ate him, but another bear nearby. The girlfriend would have survived if she hadn't been making the predator call.

[kleinjahr]

Actually Troy Hurtubise is an inventor, not any loonier than many others. Have you seen "American Inventor"? Apparently his bear suit does do what he claims, but frankly, I can't see any biologist using it. It doesn't really blend in with the environment and so would affect the behaviour of the bears. Aside from that can you imagine yourself traipsing around the wilderness in how many pounds of body armour?
Another invention of his is an armour system for light vehicles. Works pretty well. Unfortunately it also covers all the windows of the vehicle.

[Corplos]

Geez-o-Pete's! IMDB message boards have Grizzly Man CTs! People who think its all an elaborate hoax!

Forsooth! I have been struck dumb!

[LTC8K6]

kleinjahr, when you get to his angel light, let me know if that revises your opinion. :D

Or his fire paste for that matter....

[alfaniner]

Haven't read all the posts yet -- wanted to get my ideas down fresh.

I guess this movie definitively answers the age-old question, "Does a bear (squat) in the woods?"

Apparently, not all the time.

Just saw this a couple nights ago. As I mentioned in another thread -- this was a guy who supposedly knew so much about bears who did some incredibly stupid things.

Yes, "Grizzly Man". I thought it was going to be about some rough and tough Grizzly Adams-type going it alone out in the woods. Two seconds after I heard Treadwell speak, I said "Gay." (not just an ad hominem -- I have a point) He spent a lot of time griping about his problems with women, even saying he loved them. I was totally surprised about 30 minutes into it to find out he actually had female partners. I'm just wondering if part of his psychosis was in not accepting, you know. I mean -- all I could see when watching this guy was Carson of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy".

"I love you, bears!" "I love you, little foxes!" "I love you, bumblebee!!" "Oh, you're not dead..."

A couple things turned my sympathy from him. One was the fact that he pretended to be alone in his videos (although he probably was, in some of them). But pretending to be this great solo crusader, when actually having someone else with him, kind of diminished that effect.

I think the thing that made me crazy was when one of the foxes was killed. "Oh, he was killed by those damn wolves!!!" Well, wolves are animals, too, and probably more endangered than the bears are. I'm sure there are many more wolf-huggers than there are of bear-huggers. (I know, appeal to popularity... but bears are much better at taking care of themselves.)

I believe the cable showing had more in that it had follow-ups to the movie, with interviews of his friends and their opinions of it. (Too damn many commercial breaks though!!!) One comment was about how many people had a morbid fascination with wanting to hear the tape. I admit some curiosity myself, but then I absolutely refused to look at anything regarding the beheading of Nicholas Berg. But that was human to human -- I refuse to let those human vermin into my head. This was just nature taking its course. Still, I try to avoid even "shark attack" shows, and the like.

Another thing that struck me. In the video that was taken a few hours before his death, he is wearing a heavy winter coat that I'd not seen in any other video. My first thought was, "He looks like a little bear!!" Well, that may have been Bear 141's thought, too.

Having recently watched the first couple seasons of "The Sopranos", I made this correllation. It's like walking into the Bada-Bing. You walk in, watch the girls, buy some drinks and maybe a little extra hoo-ha, everyting's gonna be fine. But you start f***kin' wit da boys, tappin' dem on the shoulder and whatnot, gettin' into dere bizness, and you eventually gonna p*** someone off enough to get whacked.

Still, a lot of people don't seem too sad that a "crazy" guy got killed doing something he loved, and something that was very dangerous. I'm still dreading the day that we hear about Adam Savage from Mythbusters being "BUSTED" big time. I would be very sad, but can't say that it was unexpected. ("Am I missing... a torso??!!")

[luchog]

That's my thinking too. I think this happend a few years ago didn't it? If not I nominate them!
Who's worse? An Idiot? or the Idiot that follow's an Idiot?

That should be "Who's the bigger fool, the fool or the fool who follows him?"

[Dazed]

That guy reminded me a lot of Andy Dick.

The hardest part to watch was him describing how he wishes he was "lucky enough" to be gay, cause its so easy to get laid by men in truck stop bathrooms.

[Huntster]

Funny.............

Before he got his ass killed and eaten, Treadwell was considered to be quite a guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell):

By 2001, Treadwell became notable enough to receive extensive media attention both on television and in environmental circles. Through his videos, he became known for attempting to create personal relationships with the bears he worked with.

As an activist, he actively communicated with the public, including traveling throughout the United States to educate school children about bears, and appearing on the Discovery Channel, Late Show with David Letterman, and Dateline NBC to discuss his experiences. He was also a co-author, with Jewel Palovak, of the book Among Grizzlies: Living with Wild Bears in Alaska, where he described his adventures on the Alaska Peninsula.

But, then, we didn't know that he was pulling off his charades inside a National Park until after his death.

We weren't told of his obvious psychological problems until after his death.

We weren't shown the video illustrating his bizarre language and thoughts until after his death.

Before the bears ate him, he was a very useful tool for the eco-zealots. Afterwards, the propaganda side of the story seemed to be forgotten.

Not by me.

[alfaniner]

After seeing this flick, and the timeline, I thought he was trying to emulate the Croc Hunter himself. I remember him standing out in the stream "looking" for bears, much in the same way Steve Irwin would look about, as if there were crocs about, every meter.

[Dragonrock]

I watched this and was fascinated by Treadwell in much the same way that one would stare at a car accident. He was an intelligent man who was completely unable to seperate he prejudices from what he observed. He really did appear to understand the basic thought processes of the bears, but then he projected his emotions on the animals. He loved the bears and had decided that the bears carried some affection for him too. He was basically a bear stalker who probably never really got it, even while he was being eaten.

[ponderingturtle]

That disturbs me. I can understand keeping it under wraps out of respect for family/friends, but the arrogance to presume to know what is right for others to hear, or not, bothers me.

Do you record over your video or audio recordings? The arrogance to presume what others should see or here fits into that too. Also throwing out bad pictures or deleteing them in a digital camera.

[ponderingturtle]

For another movie about a nutbar and his obsession with bears, check out Project Grizzly (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117395/).

That guy was seriously obsessed. Great movie, and it even inspired an episode of The Simpsons.

But he would be unlikely to be eaten. He also won an ignoble prize for his work.

[LTC8K6]

Steve Irwin would look about, as if there were crocs about, every meter.

There aren't.....?

I thought it was Pitfall all day long. I'm utterly crushed that I can't play the game for real.

[Huntster]

Steve Irwin would look about, as if there were crocs about, every meter. There aren't.....?

Nope.

Not where you're at.

[LTC8K6]

Not where you're at.

Which I obviously didn't mean.....

[LTC8K6]

Now that you mentioned it, we do have trees, holes, and logs we can roll. I'm having trouble with vines to swing from, though. Maybe in the Great Dismal Swamp?

[SphereGuy]

I just saw this on the Discovery Channel yesterday. After they did a half hour of interviews with his friends and such and they all agree the rant against the park service should have been left out. While watching that I got the strongest feeling that they knew this was more the real man than the the love-and-caring man that they wanted to show.

He was seriously deluded if nothing else.

[ponderingturtle]

I just saw this on the Discovery Channel yesterday. After they did a half hour of interviews with his friends and such and they all agree the rant against the park service should have been left out. While watching that I got the strongest feeling that they knew this was more the real man than the the love-and-caring man that they wanted to show.

He was seriously deluded if nothing else.

I am not suprised, the movie is not all that favorable in its opinion of him and if he had not died the dirrector of the movie has stated that he would have attacked his position even more strongly.

He was their friend, they do not want it to be critical of him.

He shared many peoples delusions about nature and how it works, it would have been interesting if this could have actualy compeated with march of the penguins for best documentary, but it got excluded from the options to vote on. Two different ideas about what nature is competeing dirrectly.

[mommyrex]

One comment was about how many people had a morbid fascination with wanting to hear the tape. I admit some curiosity myself, but then I absolutely refused to look at anything regarding the beheading of Nicholas Berg. But that was human to human -- I refuse to let those human vermin into my head. This was just nature taking its course.
Not trying to pick a fight, but this attitude interests me. You imply that humans killing humans is not "just nature taking its course." Is the distinction that humans don't (usually) eat other humans they've killed? I'm curious about your thinking, here.

[Jas]

If only bears ate all the crazies :)

[ponderingturtle]

If only bears ate all the crazies :)

Hmm, how do we encourage more crazies to play with 1000 lbs predators....

I know, suggest Shark thearapy as a treatment for cancer?

[alfaniner]

No, just tell them that bears can talk to the dead.

[Jas]

I know, suggest Shark thearapy as a treatment for cancer?

Well, maybe if the buggers had to harvest the cartilege themselves, they might think twice.

[calebprime]

Grr. can't seem to quote the quote:


"One comment was about how many people had a morbid fascination with wanting to hear the tape. I admit some curiosity myself, but then I absolutely refused to look at anything regarding the beheading of Nicholas Berg. But that was human to human -- I refuse to let those human vermin into my head. This was just nature taking its course."



Not trying to pick a fight, but this attitude interests me. You imply that humans killing humans is not "just nature taking its course." Is the distinction that humans don't (usually) eat other humans they've killed? I'm curious about your thinking, here.

not to put words into someone else's mouth, but I can imagine the thinking goes something like this:

-Berg beheading is terrorist theater which can only be effective if people watch it. Watching it to some small degree encourages more violence.

-We (as opposed to bears) do not live in a state of nature. We have the capacity to choose behavior other than eating each other OR killing each other--although we don't always live up that capacity. If we opt for violence, this is morally wrong in a way that bear behavior couldn't be.

-Bears are just too dumb, big and hungry to pay attention to human morality. In any case, watching a bear eat a human wouldn't encourage more of the same behavior.

This is just common sense--the reason I'm not a philosopher. Can you explain why there's something intriguing about this that caught your attention?

[Legalduck]

If only bears ate all the crazies

Anyway to convince the rapture ready nuts that a grizzly bear is Jesus? no... that a bad idea. I'd hate to have to put the bear down after it ate a few zealots. :D

[alfaniner]

calebprime said it better than I could, but that's about the gist of it.

[ponderingturtle]

Well, maybe if the buggers had to harvest the cartilege themselves, they might think twice.

No it is about comuning with the purity of the shark.

[Huntster]

I am not suprised, the movie is not all that favorable in its opinion of him and if he had not died the dirrector of the movie has stated that he would have attacked his position even more strongly.......

I don't believe that.

Had Treadwell not died, we'd be treated with more of his "saving the bears from poachers" BS, delivered by the Discovery and National Geographic channels, and we never would have been told he was pulling this charade in a National Park and discouraged by park officials.

[ponderingturtle]

I don't believe that.

Had Treadwell not died, we'd be treated with more of his "saving the bears from poachers" BS, delivered by the Discovery and National Geographic channels, and we never would have been told he was pulling this charade in a National Park and discouraged by park officials.

Ah so we shouldn't believe what the dirrector said? It was in an NPR interview, I am not exactly sure what program it was on though.

If he had not died that dirrector would never have been able to make the movie as Timothy would not have let someone else have his footage. But that does not mean that if Werner Herzog had the chance he would not have made an even less flattering documentary of him

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
I don't believe that.

Had Treadwell not died, we'd be treated with more of his "saving the bears from poachers" BS, delivered by the Discovery and National Geographic channels, and we never would have been told he was pulling this charade in a National Park and discouraged by park officials.

Ah so we shouldn't believe what the dirrector said?

You're certainly free to believe him. And I'm free not to.

I don't believe him.

There's also the consideration of whether or not, had Herzog made such a film before Treadwell's death, such a film would make it to your TV screen.

If he had not died that dirrector would never have been able to make the movie as Timothy would not have let someone else have his footage.

How did Herzog get it after Treadwell's death? Those films were Treadwell's private property, and his heirs owned it.

Do you think Treadwell's heirs wanted such film broadcast around the world?

This situation has all the classic signs of propaganda before Treadwell's death, and profiteering afterwards.

[Dragonrock]

Hunster, do you wait and see what the opinions of the majority of the board are then simply regurgitate whatever you can in opposition to the larger population?

[ponderingturtle]

You're certainly free to believe him. And I'm free not to.

I don't believe him.

Why? I don't see any evidence that he would have agreed with Treadwell before or after death. Many people where not conned by him the park service for one.

There's also the consideration of whether or not, had Herzog made such a film before Treadwell's death, such a film would make it to your TV screen.

Mabey, what are you basing your oppinions on?


How did Herzog get it after Treadwell's death? Those films were Treadwell's private property, and his heirs owned it.
Yes and they sold others the rights to it

Do you think Treadwell's heirs wanted such film broadcast around the world?

They might well not have been in any legal postition to stop it even if they wanted to, depends on the contract between them and the producers(Herzog was approached by them after they had decided to make it)

If Treadwell was alive he would likely not have sold the footage to someone else but wanted to be much more involved in the editing process, as he seems to have had some ability and desire in that regard.


This situation has all the classic signs of propaganda before Treadwell's death, and profiteering afterwards.

Well I have not watched the previous film made about him and don't know how it compares(the one from when he was alive) and have not studdied the legalities involved. BUt I fail to see what exactly you are basing your beliefs on.

Also the dirrector was never involved in this until well after his death anyway, so I see no reason not to belive Herzog

[Huntster]

Hunster, do you wait and see what the opinions of the majority of the board are then simply regurgitate whatever you can in opposition to the larger population?

Nope.

Do you wait and see what the opinions of the majority of the board are then simply "yup, yup" to the larger population?

[Dragonrock]

Nope.

Do you wait and see what the opinions of the majority of the board are then simply "yup, yup" to the larger population?

No, I'm one of the few politically conservative posters on this board. I agree with most of the discussions that involve science and disagree with a large portion of the politics. On the other hand, you seem to simply disagree with whatever the greatest section posts regardless of whether it is politics, science, pop-culture, or the shape of the moon.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
You're certainly free to believe him. And I'm free not to.

I don't believe him.

Why? I don't see any evidence that he would have agreed with Treadwell before or after death. Many people where not conned by him the park service for one.

I've seen no evidence that Herzog was interested in Treadwell at all until Treadwell got his ass ate up in spectacular fashion.

Herzog clearly wasn't interested in letting folks know that Treadwell was playing his games in a National Park until after the Anchorage Daily News reported on the death.

For example, you didn't know that Treadwell was playing this game in a National Park, and you didn't know that the Park Superintendent disapproved (but allowed it anyway) until after Treadwell got killed, did you?

You were conned; just like me and most everybody else................

Quote:
There's also the consideration of whether or not, had Herzog made such a film before Treadwell's death, such a film would make it to your TV screen.

Mabey, what are you basing your oppinions on?

On the fact that it wasn't revealed that Treadwell was saving the bears from imaginary poachers until after his death by the Anchorage Daily News.

Quote:
This situation has all the classic signs of propaganda before Treadwell's death, and profiteering afterwards.

Well I have not watched the previous film made about him and don't know how it compares(the one from when he was alive) and have not studdied the legalities involved. BUt I fail to see what exactly you are basing your beliefs on.

How's this (http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/Tim_Treadwell.html)?:

Almost from the start the National Park Service officials worried about Tim's behavior. According to park service records, in 1998 Treadwell was issued a citation by park rangers for storing an ice chest filled with food in his tent. On another occasion he was ordered by park rangers to remove a prohibited portable generator.

A total of 6 park violations or complaints from 1994 to 2003 including guiding tourists without a license, camping in the same area longer than the 5 day limit, improper food storage, wildlife harassment, use of a portable generator, and misc. altercations with visitors and licensed guides. I will try and get this information organized and posted soon.

Treadwell also frustrated park rangers because he refused to carry bear spray. Deb Liggett, superintendent of Katmai National Park became sufficiently concerned about Treadwell that she met him for coffee in Anchorage several years prior to his death. "I told him that if we had any more violations from him we would petition the U.S. magistrate to ban him from the park,". (Liggett 2003)

Liggett applauded the fact that Treadwell was winning fans for the bears and was being more careful to warn people not to attempt what he did. But she and other park officials were afraid that "one swipe of a paw would undo all that and result in a frenzy of stories about fearsome, people-eating grizzlies". (Liggett 2003)

Even though Liggett knew there were no "poachers" like Treadwell claimed, knew that the guy was crazy, and was violating park rules on a regular basis, she didn't kick his ass out of the park.

She "applauded the fact that Treadwell was winning fans for the bears."

Frankly, I think park officials should be answering some questions. To even visit Brooks Camp (in the same park), you need to attend a bear interaction class in order to go fishing.

And Treadwell (with no academic or scientific qualifications whatsoever) was allowed to frolick like he did for 13 years at the other end of the park?

Why?

[Huntster]

....you seem to simply disagree with whatever the greatest section posts regardless of whether it is politics, science, pop-culture, or the shape of the moon.

If I feel strongly about something, that's when I post. I have not even glanced at the vast majority of the threads on this forum.

And I really don't take a poll before I post my opinion. I couldn't care less how many people disagree with me.

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

I found this movie very interesting because I am someone with ambitions to study large dangerous predators (in my case sharks) so I share his passion for animals and their protection.

I think the flaws of his approach that contributed to his death stem from the fact that he was not a bear biologist, but was merely an environmental activist. He wasn't careful enough to keep his distance from the animals and not have the animals get used to the company of people. When he gave the animals silly names he was at great risk of anthropomorphising the animals, which is a common way that people misunderstand animals and how animals think. When he encountered the fox he seemed to regard it more like a dog than as a wild animal, which is always a risky mistake.

I'm not saying you can only be a cheerleader for these things upon spending years in college and earning a PhD, only that you should spend some time doing your homework and consult an expert before doing something like this, otherwise you could put yourself at serious risk, especially with wild animals.

[LTC8K6]

I think the flaws in his approach were that he was a little off of plumb and had trouble with reality. He apparently thought bears were just people who looked different.

Then you had people who kept on enabling him, which reinforced his behavior, instead of cutting him off at the knees and ending his foolishness.

Then you have, as Huntster noted, the nearly unbelievable behavior of park officials towards the guy.

[ponderingturtle]

I've seen no evidence that Herzog was interested in Treadwell at all until Treadwell got his ass ate up in spectacular fashion.

I have seen no evidence that he was knew of treadwell before he was aproached to dirrect the film.


Herzog clearly wasn't interested in letting folks know that Treadwell was playing his games in a National Park until after the Anchorage Daily News reported on the death.

For example, you didn't know that Treadwell was playing this game in a National Park, and you didn't know that the Park Superintendent disapproved (but allowed it anyway) until after Treadwell got killed, did you?

You were conned; just like me and most everybody else................

Treadwell was pretty public about what he was doing, I am not sure how available the ealier discovery channel show about him is but it came out years before his death. So I have no ready way of saying how it was presented

[ponderingturtle]

I think the flaws in his approach were that he was a little off of plumb and had trouble with reality. He apparently thought bears were just people who looked different.

Then you had people who kept on enabling him, which reinforced his behavior, instead of cutting him off at the knees and ending his foolishness.

Then you have, as Huntster noted, the nearly unbelievable behavior of park officials towards the guy.

What actions should they have taken? He presence there was allowed it was more specific rules he was violateing about camping in one place for too long and such. BUt how do you enforce such things in the back woods?

[LTC8K6]

What actions should they have taken?

I think Huntster covered that.

[alfaniner]

I can't check YouTube at the moment, but is there a chance that the Treadwell appearance on Letterman is on there? I'd like to know how he came across there.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6
I think the flaws in his approach were that he was a little off of plumb and had trouble with reality. He apparently thought bears were just people who looked different.

Then you had people who kept on enabling him, which reinforced his behavior, instead of cutting him off at the knees and ending his foolishness.

Then you have, as Huntster noted, the nearly unbelievable behavior of park officials towards the guy.
What actions should they have taken?

Eject him from the park. He was breaking multiple rules, videotaping the evidence himself, and it was broadcasted on international TV.

He presence there was allowed it was more specific rules he was violateing about camping in one place for too long and such.

Why was he allowed to violate so many basic rules, yet allowed to continue his games?:

Like I wrote, other visitors to the park are required to attend behavior briefings (http://www.katmai.national-park.com/cal.htm):

All visitors to Brooks Camp are required to attend the Brooks Camp School of Bear Etiquette offered at the Visitor Center. This fifteen to twenty minute orientation provides visitors with basic information to help keep themselves safe and bears out of trouble.

But how do you enforce such things in the back woods?

Obviously, you know nothing about the National Park Service SWAT team? (http://www.landrights.org/ak/wrst/rangers.htm) and the Pilgrim Family on yet another National Park in Alaska.

While Treadwell was playing his games (taped and broadcast to the world) the NPS was engaged in war with folks who have private inholdings in the parks; land that was privately owned before the parks existed. The Park Service tries to pressure them out, paying pennies on the dollar for the value of the properties. The Park Service tried to buy this land for about $150,000, and the Pilgrims paid nearly $400,000. The Park Superintendant got pissed off, and looked for a reason to screw them. Turns out Papa Pilgrim had more connections than the Superintendant knew about. Here are some of the players (http://www.landrights.org/ak/wrst/cast.htm#Sharp). It got really interesting....

Go ahead; Google it up. Keywords: pilgrim family anchorage daily news

The NPS can be very selective over what they want to prosecute and what they don't. They can get away with it, too, especially when so many people live in the dark and don't know it.

[ponderingturtle]

The NPS can be very selective over what they want to prosecute and what they don't. They can get away with it, too, especially when so many people live in the dark and don't know it.

ANd just because one is so much easier than the other to find has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

How much should the park have spent to remove him and keep him out on an annual basis? Sending in enough people to catch him there would be difficult and expensive.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
The NPS can be very selective over what they want to prosecute and what they don't. They can get away with it, too, especially when so many people live in the dark and don't know it.
ANd just because one is so much easier than the other to find has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

How difficult would it be to find Treadwell when they knew he was in Kaflia Bay each and every year for multiple years?

How much should the park have spent to remove him and keep him out on an annual basis?

How much did they spend to issue him a citation for possession of a generator?

How much did they spend to issue him a citation for camping in the same spot in excess of 5 days?

How much did they spend to wage war on the Pilgrim family?

Sending in enough people to catch him there would be difficult and expensive.

What do you know about Kaflia Bay? What do you know of Katmai National Park?

For example, do you know how many fixed wing airplanes and helicopters the NPS has stationed in that park?

Is it unreasonable to spend money to eject Treadwell, yet justified to patrol looking for poachers that may or may not be there (and since there's no record of poachers ever being there)?