Loose Change

[Pardalis]

That bombs were planted in the basement of both wtcs to weaken the steel when it sets off and creates pool of molten steel after the collasping, thus the government covered it up.

Hence, cover up is a conspriacy.

Here's a nice fallacy for aggle-rithm.

A Collection of Fallacies:

When it's raining, the birds don't sing.
The birds aren't singing.
Therefore, it's raining.

When a person dies, they become very quiet.
Bob is very quiet.
Therefore, Bob is dead.

If done properly, poisoned food tastes like normal food.
My dinner tastes normal.
Therefore, my dinner has been poisoned.

When a building is demolished, the roof of the building falls downwards.
WTC7's roof fell downwards.
Therefore, WTC7 was demolished.

If a person is very intelligent, they are able to post messages in a forum.
geggy posts messages in a forum.
Therefore, geggy is very intelligent. ;)

[delphi_ote]

That bombs were planted in the basement of both wtcs to weaken the steel when it sets off and creates pool of molten steel after the collasping, thus the government covered it up.

Hence, cover up is a conspriacy.
Not to cut you off before you even get started, but it has already been pointed out to you over and over that explosives won't melt steel. At this point, I can only assume you are either illiterate or deliberately perpetuating a lie.

[Pardalis]

Not to cut you off before you even get started, but it has already been pointed out to you over and over that explosives won't melt steel. At this point, I can only assume you are either illiterate or deliberately perpetuating a lie.

Let's bet this is what geggy is going to answer you with:

from Americanfreepress

"A “sharp spike of short duration” is how seismologist Thorne Lay of University of California at Santa Cruz told AFP an underground nuclear explosion appears on a seismograph."

[geggy]

Man, you're all over the place. Comparisons with Hitler and the nazis is the easiest exist. YOU ARE SINKING VERY LOW.

WORD OF ADVICE: I wouldn't sympathise with terrorists over the internet if I were you...

You missed the point. Hitler labelled the opposition party and dissents as terrorists just as george bush have been labelling the opposition party and the dissents as terrorists (or saddamists in his own words).

[delphi_ote]

You missed the point. Hitler labelled the opposition party and dissents as terrorists just as george bush have been labelling the opposition party and the dissents as terrorists (or saddamists in his own words).
Adolf Hitler was also male and so is George W. Bush! OMFG!

[Ramooone]

That bombs were planted in the basement of both wtcs to weaken the steel when it sets off and creates pool of molten steel after the collasping, thus the government covered it up.

Hence, cover up is a conspriacy.

Thank you geggy, that really explains how the buildings fell from the top down!

Geggy you're the only person whom i actually believe can throw a rock at the ground and miss.

[Euromutt]

Amerika was responsible of installing Saddam as a puppet in government of Iraq to obey america orders.

Rummy and Saddam meets...

http://www.marxist.com/images/saddam_rumsfeld.jpg

Because of amerika's treachery, saddam decided to turn his back away to america's orders that lead to the toppling of saddam before ameica could install another puppet in the iraqi government.Oh dear, that canard again. And by "again," I mean, "again in this very thread." Here's something I posted on page 10 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1523672#post1523672), in response to Alek's assertion that Saddam had been "a CIA asset for some 40 years":Uh, no. After the 1968 coup, the Ba'athist regime fostered relations with the Soviet Union, culminating in the Iraqi-Soviet Friendship Treaty of April 1972. Subsequently, the Soviet Union and other Warsaw Pact member states sold the Iraqis all the weapons they wanted, from small arms through AFVs to fighter-bombers. In addition, the Ba'athists purchased training in surveillance and interrogation techniques for their security/intelligence services--the Estikhbarat (military intelligence), the Amn (state intelligence) and Mukhabarat (Ba'ath party intelligence)--from the Sovs and the East Germans in the 1970s. Many of those sales were on credit, too; by the time the Ba'athist government was toppled in 2003, it still owed billions of dollars to Russia.

Now, if PBS, UPI or some pajamahadin can "uncover" that Saddam was "a CIA asset" during that time, it's a reasonable assumption that the KGB could have done so as well. Does it seem plausible that the Sovs would provide billions in weaponry, on credit, and details of their own counter-intelligence methods, to a government whose vice-president, later president, was a CIA asset? The notion is laughable. Or it would be, if so many credulous idiots didn't buy into the idea.In addition, it deserves pointing out that the US cut off diplomatic relations with the Ba'athist regime early on (log before Saddam ousted Abu Bakr and assumed the presidecy himself), and those relations remained severed until 1983. Pointing to that photograph of Rumsfeld meeting Saddam and claiming it shows that the US incited Iraq to go to war against Iran isn't even a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, it's a praeter hoc ergo propter hoc ("before this, therefore because of this") fallacy. The fact is that the US rekindled relations with Iraq only after Iran had declared that it would not be satisfied with restoration of the status quo ante, but that it intended to keep on fighting until the Ba'athist regime was deposed and replaced with a new government which was more friendly towards Iran.

It's also a matter of public record, if you can be bothered to look for it, what support the US actually gave Iraq during the war with Iran. The US sold (not, sold) Iraq military equipment, but none of it was weapons systems; rather, it was stuff like battlefield ambulances, unarmed helicopters and the like. The DIA provided intelligence on Iranian force dispositions, and in later stages even provided battle plans designed to take advantage of that intelligence. But that's about it; American policy was quite clearly intended to provide Iraq with the means to hold off Iran without actually providing it with anything that could be used against any other country in the region.

And note that, even after the 1983 meeting between Rumsfeld and Saddam, the Soviets continued to sell military hardware to Iraq, culminating in the sale in 1989-1990 of massive amounts of hardware which had become surplus to Soviet requirements following the withdrawal of Soviet forces from eastern Europe. Evidently, the Sovs found that photograph significantly less compelling evidence than conspiracy theorists do now. I'm constantly amazed by the tendency on the part of many anti-Iraq war/anti-Bush types to seize upon dribs and drabs of material from the 1980s and brandish them as if nobody had been previously aware of these things, and as if there were no other explanation for them but some post-9/11 conspiracy theory. Those of us who actually followed the news back in the 1980s (yes, we had news reporting before the internet!) have a hard time knowing how to respond, simply because the ignorance displayed is so breath-taking.

[Pardalis]

Thank you geggy, that really explains how the buildings fell from the top down!

Of course now geggy is going to explain to you that NUCLEAR explosions weakened the steel columns therefore the towers could collapse.

How am I doing geggy, am I a good conspiracist?


Geggy you're the only person whom i actually believe can throw a rock at the ground and miss.

LMAO!!!

[Regnad Kcin]

Our little friend is online as I write this, so let me try for the third time:

geggy, what do you do for a living?

And as a bonus, what was your major in college?

[bob_kark]

That bombs were planted in the basement of both wtcs to weaken the steel when it sets off and creates pool of molten steel after the collasping, thus the government covered it up.

Hence, cover up is a conspriacy.

Ok, lets take this one step at a time. What explosive leaves steel in a liquid state for several days?

[Correa Neto]

Here!

CT-level PROOF that Bush is evil! Truly evil. Very evil. Really evil. Unbearably evil.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/AVCN/bush_kitten.jpg

If he could do that to a kitten, 9/11 conspiracy surely was a piece of cake for him and his evil cow-orkers.

BTW, I would really like to learn more about explosives that can melt steel and keep this heat level for so long after the actual explosion. I've been working in the mining industry for some time, and I'm quite used to explosions, but I never heard about an explosion site that would remain hot for so long...

[aggle-rithm]

You missed the point. Hitler labelled the opposition party and dissents as terrorists just as george bush have been labelling the opposition party and the dissents as terrorists (or saddamists in his own words).

The Nazis started the Reichstag fire and blamed it on Communists.
The US government blamed 9/11 on Islamic terrorists.
Therefore, the US government...started the Reichstag fire?

I think geggy has topped himself.

geggy, do you even know what the Reichstag is? Do you know the significance of the Reichstag fire, other than that the Nazis set it?

[aggle-rithm]

Here!


BTW, I would really like to learn more about explosives that can melt steel and keep this heat level for so long after the actual explosion. I've been working in the mining industry for some time, and I'm quite used to explosions, but I never heard about an explosion site that would remain hot for so long...

I'd be interested to know why he keeps claiming the buildings fell in a "controlled demolition manner", yet displayed characteristics never before seen in a controlled demolition.

[senorpogo]

You know, I never thought the day would come when I'd consider Alek and conspiracybeliever logical and well-reasoned.

[Pardalis]

The Nazis started the Reichstag fire and blamed it on Communists.
The US government blamed 9/11 on Islamic terrorists.
Therefore, the US government...started the Reichstag fire?

I think his fallacy was:

The Nazis started the Reichstag fire and blamed it on Communists
The US government blamed 9/11 on Islamic terrorists
Therefore, Grand Pa' Bush started the Reichstag fire.

I dunno, I'm not sure, it's hard to have a clear view of a dillusion.

[c4ts]

If he could do that to a kitten, 9/11 conspiracy surely was a piece of cake for him and his evil cow-orkers.

He's just impersonating Kim Jong, I assure you. The kitten was pre-frozen by vegetarian hippies, so no harm done.

[Pardalis]

BTW geggy, have you ever considered entering the NHL? Your goaltending is spectacular.

[Gravy]

Hey thanks for providing even more evidence that there were molten steel in WTC. I've never seen that picture before. I'm having hard times debating with people because most of the people here are full of contradictions. You said there was no molten steel in the past now youre showing me a picture of molten steel. How am I supposed to take you seriously? By the way do you really think that look anything like burning fuel? Sure as hell look a lot like thermite liquid pouring over.

By the way how come you havent provided a link as to how WTC7 fire got started?

Kookbreaker, i'll have to get back to you on that. I only provided that link for you to analyze other major building fires that's occured in the past...

To assume that it's steel is foolish. No engineer, anywhere, has suggested that it's steel. Aluminum melts at about half the temperature of steel. You should know that by now, geggy. I have held peices of cooled molten aluminum from the south tower in my hand. And not from the bottom of the debris pile, either. NO ONE at Ground Zero ever found anything that was positively identified as molten steel, hot or cooled.

Why have I not moved on to WTC 7? Here's why.
You keep avoiding facts by jumping from subject to subject. Let's just focus on this one thing, and get that resolved before moving on, okay? Just focus on this, and when we finish it, we'll move on to the next thing. That way you can learn things.

So, since you brought it up, please tell me what differences you can think of between the 1975 fire and the incidents on 9/11. Making a list might be helpful. How about just limiting it to five items. That's not too hard, right?

[Gravy]

[QUOTE=geggy;1609429]Hey thanks for providing even more evidence that there were molten steel in WTC. I've never seen that picture before.


What a hoot - all melting metal is steel?

Could that be the skin of the building - aluminum? Nahh - that's burnin' steel!

I'm reminded of the now old line - arguing on the Internet is like winning the special Olympics - you may win, but. . .
By the way, that's a still from video. The molten metal is really pouring out of there. For CTers to suggest that there wasn't an inferno in those buildings is absurd.

[c4ts]

I only came to that conclusion after discovering many claims made by ground zero crew that they said they saw molten steel, videos/pics that showed molten steel, thermal spot scientific data showing that the temprature of several thermal spot exceeded at over 800 degrees so I figured why deny it?

But if all the evidence to the contrary is a conspiracy, why are you so certain that your evidence, the accounts and videos of molten steel are not? It would be smaller and easier to fake, requiring far fewer resources and even less cooperation. And this would only require control over a few testimonies, videos, pictures, with far less manipulation than the one the greater conspiracy would require. It wouldn't matter which version you trust, since a conspiracy can happen regardless of whether or not you believe it.

[kookbreaker]

The video can be viewed at this link. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=Molten%20metal%20wtc)

I am not convinced its even metal, let alone steel.

[Gravy]

You need to understand how hierarchy pyramid of news agencies work. National geographics is one of the outlets that are on top of the pyramid. Others being cnn, fox, popular mechanics, Time, AP, etc who are affilitiated with the US government.
I haven't finished reading the thread, just had to get in on this. Popular Mechanics is at the top of the "news pyramid!"

Oh, I am loving this. geggy, my fixéd star of foolishness, I changed my mind: please don't leave. My day wouldn't be complete without your mal mots.

[Ramooone]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jg1uyRJjqaQ&search=plane%20crash

i found video of geggy at work! this is how he knows so much about planes he's a pilot!

[Gravy]

That bombs were planted in the basement of both wtcs to weaken the steel when it sets off and creates pool of molten steel after the collasping, thus the government covered it up.

Hence, cover up is a conspriacy.
This is getting beter and better. Go, geggy, go!

[c4ts]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jg1uyRJjqaQ&search=plane%20crash

i found video of geggy at work! this is how he knows so much about planes he's a pilot!
It is clearly a controlled demolition in the forest!

[Gravy]

Of course now geggy is going to explain to you that NUCLEAR explosions weakened the steel columns therefore the towers could collapse.
Where've you been, Pardalis? That was proven long ago. (http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/soldier2.htm)

[Gravy]

The video can be viewed at this link. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrVgioIXvk&search=Molten%20metal%20wtc)

I am not convinced its even metal, let alone steel.
I agree that that view isn't convincing. There's another video that I think is more convincing, but I can't find the link right now. But I may be incorrectly connecting the video with the cooled aluminum I've held, which had characteristics of cooling while falling through the air.

[Gravy]

I agree that that view isn't convincing. There's another video that I think is more convincing, but I can't find the link right now. But I may be incorrectly connecting the video with the cooled aluminum I've held, which had characteristics of cooling while falling through the air.
Oh, and geggy said the head of CDI (Mark Loiseaux) said he saw molten steel at the site. That's wrong, geggy. Do your homework. He said there were reports of molten steel. But the molten material was never tested, and several people were saying "red-hot" or "glowing orange," which is a long way from molten.

Anyway, geggy, I await your list of how the 1975 WTC 1 fire differed from the incidents on 9/11.

I told you before that you won't get the "truth" by surfing CT sites. Are you beginning to see that, or not? Just go back over this thread and count how many times you've been shown to be wrong. Are you beginning to question your sources of information now?

Or are you sticking with them?

ETA: Mark Loiseaux

[Pardalis]

Where've you been, Pardalis? That was proven long ago. (http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/soldier2.htm)

I'm only an apprentice conspiracist. A very bad one.;)

[delphi_ote]

I just got a random AIM message from the author of this (www.chroniclesofgaras.com)webcomic.


yo
is that post about loose change 9/11 still active?
on your jref forums
sorry for botehering you, but I saw a link on universal studio site
actually I want to show a bit of something you would REALLY like
it totally debunks loose change
and I agree, it's a stupid ass movie
let me get the link for you
its a bit of a read, but it goes by line by line of the movie

And he linked me to none other than our own Gravy's analysis. Apparently it's really making the rounds!

So the guy that contacted me is being harassed by Loosers from the Universal Pictures website (United 93) because a poster there named jebb is blasting the Loosers. jebb also happens to be a fan of the webcomic, so he has a link to it in his signature on the Universal Pictures forum. Apparently to the Loosers this makes the author of the webcomic complicit in the conspiracy, so they've been sending nasty e-mails. :rolleyes:

Here's a link (http://www.universalpictures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1889) to a particularly interesting thread on the Universal Forum. Anyone interested in heading over there and helping out? ;)

ETA From that thread:
That is so awesome. I wasted an hour and a half (or whatever it was) watching loose change. That PDF IS DEAD ON. Made my night

[Gravy]

I just got a random AIM message from the author of this (www.chroniclesofgaras.com)webcomic.


And he linked me to none other than our own Gravy's analysis. Apparently it's really making the rounds!

So the guy that contacted me is being harassed by Loosers from the Universal Pictures website (United 93) because a poster there named jebb is blasting the Loosers. jebb also happens to be a fan of the webcomic, so he has a link to it in his signature on the Universal Pictures forum. Apparently to the Loosers this makes the author of the webcomic complicit in the conspiracy, so they've been sending nasty e-mails. :rolleyes:

Here's a link (http://www.universalpictures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1889) to a particularly interesting thread on the Universal Forum. Anyone interested in heading over there and helping out? ;)

ETA From that thread:

Very cool. I'll start promoting that critique when I have the final version done, in the next couple of days.

ETA: I posted over there and reminded the critics that I invited corrections by email on the first page of my critique, but I haven't received any from them.

[hellaeon]

hahaha gravy...you must feel on top of the world. you have made a difference. Lord.

[Pardalis]

Has anyone posted this link before? Interesting read.

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/moltensteel.htm

[Regnad Kcin]

hahaha! nominated!Thanks, mate.

[Gravy]

hahaha gravy...you must feel on top of the world. you have made a difference. Lord.

Actually, I feel very depresed about all of this.

[delphi_ote]

Actually, I feel very depresed about all of this.
Depressed? Why?

[Gravy]

Depressed? Why?
Well, it's depressing to think that there are so many people out there whose education hasn't given them the ability to think critically.

Not all of these people are 14 year-olds who play video games all day. Geggy claims to be 29, and the 911Truth.org people that Manny and I met last week were in their 20s to 60s. I'm putting together a critique of their literature now. Of about 30 claims I've looked at so far, exactly one (the Sibel Edmonds story) has validity, IMO. These are people who claim to know the "truth."

The "911 scholars for truth" are adults, many of whom have expertise in certain fields, but who are completely wlling to throw away any training they've had in research methods, logic, etc., in order to push a political agenda. These are also people who claim to know the "truth."

And this is all a distraction from how effed up the leadership of the U.S. (both parties) actually is, and how dangerous al Qaeda has been. It isn't easy to support both the U.S. status quo and al Qaeda, but the CTists have found a way.

[delphi_ote]

Well, it's depressing to think that there are so many people out there whose education hasn't given them the ability to think critically.
But you've been encouraging critical thinking, and you're making an impact! A lot of people in that thread said things along the lines of "You know, I was thinking there was something wrong with that claim, but I just didn't look it up." These are people you haven't even met before, and you're giving them the ammunition to shoot down these theories.
And this is all a distraction from how effed up the leadership of the U.S. (both parties) actually is, and how dangerous al Qaeda has been. It isn't easy to support both the U.S. status quo and al Qaeda, but the CTists have found a way.
Yes, it's odd that you can't really place the Loosers on the Right or Left end of the political spectrum. They seem to share the worst elements of both sides; the John Birch Society and the "Paul Wellstone was murdered" crowds living in perfect lunatic harmony.

I've long held that going far enough to the Right or to the Left puts you in essentially the same place, but I never expected such direct proof.

[pipelineaudio]

Gravy, what about the Seibel Edmonds story do you find compelling?

[hellaeon]

I know what your saying mate. It is depressing, but your a Sagan in the CT realm! Gravy as a candle in the dark!

I have associates within my music scene that live by this stuff, and no matter how ludicrus it gets, it somehow is just more vindication for the belief in it. They were close friends at one stage, but I feel ill hearing them - though aint really had much to do with them for at least 3-4 years apart from a brief howdi at a gig. Its the same feeling of dred I get when I hear Benny Hinn, John Edwards etc etc.

It is fanatical. I just dont get it. Actually I do. I remember spouting Stichins 12th planet work to people back in the day and they were wowed over the amazing knowledge I had. I felt way cool. So selective. Like so elite, I knew something no one did and they were amazed by it! In the end its a lot of knowledge but with no wisdom at all.

To quote a great man amongst the music scene
"The philosopher, you know so much about nothing at all" - Chuck Schuldiner RIP.

oakly doakly

[hurdygurdy]

Actually, I feel very depresed about all of this.

It would be quite more depressing without people like you, my friend.

[hurdygurdy]

I gueess tony fox has experience in lying in front of the camera while he was the fox news anchor. so bush figured he'd be the perfect guy for the press secetary position in order to lie for him. I'm sayin that the bush administration has a stranglehold on the media just as hitler did during the nazi regime. If you'd study the history of the third reich, the parellel of the nazi regime and the current bush regime is far too similiar. Afterall bush's grandfather was hitler's banker. Did you know that the nazis were responsible for the reichstag fire?

But Bush has a stranglehold on the media ALL OVER THE WORLD, right? Hey, not even Hitler could get that.

[shuize]

I know this question has been raised before, but again today I found myself pondering the question of what sort of disconnect goes through someone's mind who honestly believes the "government" is capable of something like 9/11 but is not particularily worried about the repercussions for exposing the "truth" over the internet? How can one hold both beliefs in one's mind at the same time? Are you even worried about it, Geggy?

If "yes," why would you leave a trail to make things easier for the "evil government" to deal with you?

If "no," what makes you think a government who, in your view, is capable of murdering nearly three thousand citizens would even think twice before eliminating you and your wacky looser friends?

To me, the fact that you're all still around babbling your conspiracy silliness tends to prove that your CT nonsense is just that ... nonsense.

[BPScooter]

This thread is so long that I must humbly request a summary! Gravy, is there a link to a comprehensive rebuttal of the conspiracy theory?

I can't say "I was there" at the Pentagon but I was in Maryland inside the Beltway at the time and heard about the first plane, rushed to my computer, watched CNN and BBC both cable and online as tower 1 falling, tower 2, plane down in PA, there were rumors of car bombs at the Treasury and such and general fear.

It would take a great deal of evidence for me to consider that the killing was done by anybody other than the individuals that took over the planes. They did it on purpose, probably somebody told them to do it, etc. Is one expected to believe that a US government plot conceived and executed this horror? The successor of Lincoln, Truman, Kennedy, would actually have such a thought? Even if one hates GWBush's guts, that's a pretty big leap. Dumb fratboys aren't supposed to be that evil.

(edited to use the third person more pleasantly)

[geggy]

Paragshenis...

Nano-nookular containing thermite...

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=nanotech&sc=&id=14105&pg=1

[geggy]

BPscooter...

It's not just george bush, it's also the people surrounding him...

Good place to start looking at evidence is here

PNAC's document for rebuilding america's defense...

http://newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Read page 51.

[Dr Adequate]

I have read page 51.

Now you will, perhaps, explain to us how it proves the existence of TEH CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!

Or maybe you can't. That would explain why you haven't done so.

[Gravy]

Gravy, what about the Seibel Edmonds story do you find compelling?
I don't know much about it beyond things I read yesterday, so please help me out if you know more.

911truth.org writes this in their pamphlet:
Why didn't the 9/11 Commission explain these issues?[...]Testimony by FBI translator Sibel Edmonds revealing foreknowledge of 9/11 and infiltration of the department by a foreign operative.
And my response (comments in brackets are mine):
Okay, now you may be on to something. I haven’t looked into it in depth, but he story of Sibel Edmonds seems to be worthy of more attention. This is the kind of thing I wish the "9-11 truth movement" spent its time on: specific allegations – by a credible person "in the know" – of serious flaws in our national security system. A summary from your website, 911Truth.org:
[From Sept. 20, 2001 to March 2002] Sibel Edmonds worked as a language specialist for the FBI’s Washington Field Office [She had top-secret clearance]. During her work with the bureau, she discovered and reported [what she believed to be] serious acts of security breaches, cover-ups, and intentional blocking of intelligence that had national security implications. After she reported these acts to FBI management, she was retaliated against by the FBI and ultimately fired in March 2002. Since that time, court proceedings on her issues have been blocked by the assertion of “State Secret Privilege” and the Congress of the United States has been gagged and prevented from any discussion of her case through retroactive re-classification by the Department of Justice.
Edmonds says she uncovered untranslated and poorly-translated documents that were gathered prior to 9/11 and that pointed to an aircraft-as-missile plot. She also reported concerns about a coworker who may have been involved in espionage – a very serious charge in that department. Some of her other allegations were mundane, such as travel voucher abuse and timesheet fraud. She says that she brought her concerns to the highest level, including Director Mueller, and was stonewalled and eventually fired. She is gagged from giving any details about the case bacause then-Attorney General John Ashcroft apparently had the matter “retroactively classified.”

Her open letter to Thomas Kean, head of the 9/11 Commission, is filled with specific allegations and is a very scary read. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0802-06.htm It alleges that the FBI's counterterrorism department is rife with the kinds of problems you might expect to see in a Board of Education bureacracy, not in a place where matters of national security are paramount, and that these problems have been deliberately covered up.

A summary of an investigation by the Office of the Inspector General is here: http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/FBI/a0533/app7.htm

The OIG investigation summary supports some of her claims, but doesn’t mention anything about 9/11…is that because it’s all classified? While there are without doubt national security implications to the case, and intelligence-gathering methods to protect, parts of the Sibel Edmonds case smack of a coverup of incompetence in crucial areas, and retribution against a whistleblower. The vigor with which she has pursued the matter in the courts seems to indicate that this is more than a case of someone seeking revenge against an unjust employer. See her website here: http://www.justacitizen.com/

[Gravy]

This thread is so long that I must humbly request a summary! Gravy, is there a link to a comprehensive rebuttal of the conspiracy theory?
Turn away! Turn away from this insane asylum's gates before you become one of its prisoners!

The best site I know of for 9-11 conspiracy debunking is 911myths.com. It's very well researched and doesn't go over the top in its claims. There's a decent set of links at a blog I started but haven't done anything else with yet, http://911getthefacts.blogspot.com/

[Gravy]

Paragshenis...

Nano-nookular containing thermite...

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=nanotech&sc=&id=14105&pg=1
This is hardly news, geggy. This stuff has been around for years.
I love how the article states:
However, researchers aren't permitted to discuss what practical military applications may come from this research.
and three paragraphs later,
Carpenter says the U.S. military has developed "cave-buster" bombs using nanoaluminum, and it is also working on missiles and torpedoes that move so quickly that they strike their targets before evasive actions can be taken.
Thermite itself is not an explosive, but it can be used as a catalyst. What's it got to do with the WTC? And when are you going to answer my question about how the 1975 fire differs from the 9/11 attacks? After all, you implied that since WTC 1 didn't fall because of that fire, it shouldn't have fallen on 9/11.

edited to fix quotes

[Belz...]

Yeah but who were blamed at first for setting the fire at the reichstag? Why did the nazis do it? How long was it until the people have discovered that the nazis were the culprit of the reichstag fire?

The Nazis took over the government and initiated a world-wide war of conquest and extermination. How does that in ANY way compare to the Bush administration ?

Remember how black the smoke that were billowing out of wtc buildings before it collapsed were? That indicated the fire was oxygen starved meaning the temperature couldn't have had gone anywhere near the temprature of steel's melting point.

Ridiculous. You know nothing about fires, as well.

[Belz...]

Then you must already know that hitler spied on opposition party and the dissents in whom he labelled as terroists. The "terrorists" tried to warn the citizens of germany that reichstag fire were possibly started by the nazis yet they were ridiculed.

Ah! A parallel. Obviously, since it was the case with the Nazis... :rolleyes:

[aggle-rithm]

This thread is so long that I must humbly request a summary! Gravy, is there a link to a comprehensive rebuttal of the conspiracy theory?

I can't say "I was there" at the Pentagon but I was in Maryland inside the Beltway at the time and heard about the first plane, rushed to my computer, watched CNN and BBC both cable and online as tower 1 falling, tower 2, plane down in PA, there were rumors of car bombs at the Treasury and such and general fear.

It would take a great deal of evidence for me to consider that the killing was done by anybody other than the individuals that took over the planes. They did it on purpose, probably somebody told them to do it, etc. Is one expected to believe that a US government plot conceived and executed this horror? The successor of Lincoln, Truman, Kennedy, would actually have such a thought? Even if one hates GWBush's guts, that's a pretty big leap. Dumb fratboys aren't supposed to be that evil.

(edited to use the third person more pleasantly)

The Loosers argue that there are many inconsistencies in the official version of 9/11, such as:

--The buildings didn't get hot enough melt the steel columns, and yet there was molten steel found in the basement.

--WTC 1,2, and 7 fell in a controlled-demolition manner, yet they were made to look like an uncontrolled collapse so no one would suspect anything.

--WTC 7 was secretly imploded, yet all the other severely damaged buildings were publicly imploded.

--There is a link between Osama bin Laden and the Bushes, and yet Osama was not involved in the attacks.

Oh, wait... that's the geggy's version of 9/11! My bad.

Edited to change "looser's" to "geggy's"

[Belz...]

That bombs were planted in the basement of both wtcs to weaken the steel when it sets off and creates pool of molten steel after the collasping, thus the government covered it up.

1. But you said a few posts ago that the WTC fell from the TOP down.
2. Explosions don't melt steel, remember ?
3. There was no molten steel at the site, remember ?
4. The bit after "Thus" is supposed to follow what preceded. It doesn't.

How can you be wrong so often about a single statement ?

"If you are not with us, then you are with them {terrorists}" -george bush, 9/12/01

Oh, well. THAT proves it! :rolleyes:

You missed the point. Hitler labelled the opposition party and dissents as terrorists just as george bush have been labelling the opposition party and the dissents as terrorists (or saddamists in his own words).

Oh, well. THAT proves it! :rolleyes:

Let me get this straight, geggy; one minute you say that the steel was so hot it melted and the next you say there was no way it could've melted, all the time ignoring that steel didn't need to melt in order for the towers to fall.l The more you distort the arguments and change your tune, the less credible you appear (not that you've presented a single thing that would lend you any credibility in the first place...)

What HE said.

[Pardalis]

Paragshenis...

Nano-nookular containing thermite...

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=nanotech&sc=&id=14105&pg=1

Thank you for the link geggy.

It shows us even more what a stupid ass you are.

From the article, wich is dated january 21 2005:

"The mini-nuke weapons are still in the research phase and may be surreptitiously funded since any form of nuclear proliferation is "politically contentious" because of the possibility that they could fall into the hands of terrorists, Oppenheimer says."

emphasis mine

[geggy]

A while ago i said i was going to point out all the weird anomalies surrounding bin Laden in the aftermath of the attacks. We all saw that he was named the culprit in the same day of the attacks without a shred of evidence to support that accusation.

The first public response from Osama bin Laden was read on September 16, 2001. He stated, "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation," which was broadcast by Qatar's Al-Jazeera satellite channel. This denial was broadcast on U.S. news networks and worldwide. The second public response was read on September 28 by Daily Ummat, a Pakistani newspaper. In it, bin Laden stated "I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle."

Dec 7th, he denies for the third time...
http://welfarestate.com/wtc/faketape/laden-dec-7.jpg

Top officials began to doubt Osama had any involvement and asks Pentagon for evidence.

Dec 13th, pentagon releases evidence of video in which Osama discusses his successful mission...but the person in the video did not appear to look like osama at all. If you look at the distance between the tip of the nose and the eyes, you'll see that the real osama had longer nose...
http://www.geocities.com/iseepee57/obl13.jpg

Then fox news, along with several other news outlets, reported that Osama had died of kidney failure...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html (cached)

fbi.gov updates osama's file on Nov 01. Sept 11, the mecca of all Osama's terror activities, was not mentioned...
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

[Belz...]

A while ago i said i was going to point out all the weird anomalies surrounding bin Laden in the aftermath of the attacks. We all saw that he was named the culprit in the same day of the attacks without a shred of evidence to support that accusation.

Well, it seemed reasonable to assume so...

Dec 7th, he denies for the third time...

Oh, well, if this international terrorist denies it, he MUST be telling the truth!

but the person in the video did not appear to look like osama at all. If you look at the distance between the tip of the nose and the eyes, you'll see that the real osama had longer nose...

I assumed you used the same "forensic" techniques as those who believe that Paul McCartney died in 1967 and was replaced by a look-alike ?

[Pardalis]

The first public response from Osama bin Laden was read on September 16, 2001. He stated, "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation," which was broadcast by Qatar's Al-Jazeera satellite channel. This denial was broadcast on U.S. news networks and worldwide. The second public response was read on September 28 by Daily Ummat, a Pakistani newspaper. In it, bin Laden stated "I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle."

So basically a known terrorist's word is enough for you? Are you that sympathetic to their "cause"?

[Pardalis]

I assumed you used the same "forensic" techniques as those who believe that Paul McCartney died in 1967 and was replaced by a look-alike ?

"She" Came In Through the Bathroom Window"

MY GOD GEGGY! Lock your doors AND windows!

The Amerikans are coming, the Amerikans are coming!:boxedin:

[geggy]

1. But you said a few posts ago that the WTC fell from the TOP down.
2. Explosions don't melt steel, remember ?
3. There was no molten steel at the site, remember ?
4. The bit after "Thus" is supposed to follow what preceded. It doesn't.

How can you be wrong so often about a single statement ?


The wtc buildings were intacted when the basement bomb exploded (like in 93). In event of building implosion, demo crew strips and cuts cores to weaken the structure. Basement bomb blast the bottom portion of the building's core first, then everything comes down. The bottom core of WTC was blasted to weaken the bottom portion of the core. Then the top portion was possibly blasted when it first came down. Explosive charges began to set off in timely pattern to cut and weaken the structure.

[Gravy]

Dec 13th, pentagon releases evidence of video in which Osama discusses his successful mission...but the person in the video did not appear to look like osama at all. If you look at the distance between the tip of the nose and the eyes, you'll see that the real osama had longer nose...
http://www.geocities.com/iseepee57/obl13.jpg

This seems like one of those “before and after” cosmetic surgery ads in which the “before” photo is deliberately unflattering, with harsh directional lighting. True, the quality of the “confession” video is very poor, but did the “truth-seekers” really use a representative video still? For example, below is another video still of Bin Laden. It’s also from a poor-quality video with bad lighting, but I think we can agree that he looks like the “long nose” Bin Laden in the photo on the above right, yes? But if I had chosen the worst still from that video, bin Laden might look more like me or like Fidel Castro or like the guy in the the photo at the above left.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044574a8e98c58.jpg

Well guess what? This still is also from the confession video. It’s the same man as the “short nose” Bin Laden, geggy. My, how deceiving people can be when they cherry-pick information! geggy, you obviously didn't watch that video, in which Bin Laden appears for about 30 minutes. Instead you pick the SINGLE worst still of him and claim the video is a fake on that basis.

What do you have to say for yourself? How interested are you in finding the truth? Tired of those CT sites leading you astray? Tired of getting taken behind the JREF woodshed for not doing your homework EVERY DAY?

[geggy]

Yo I aint sympathyzing osama. Of course he's guilty of many terror activities in the past. Maybe that's what led you to easily believe he had involvement in sept 11 attacks.

[Pardalis]

And PLEASE geggy, don't give me that crap about his ring. If he can disrespect the Quran by killing thousands of people, I don't think disrespecting the Quran by puting on a ring should bother him.

[Gravy]

Yo I aint sympathyzing osama. Of course he's guilty of many terror activities in the past. Maybe that's what led you to easily believe he had involvement in sept 11 attacks.
...or is it the fact that he celebrates the event and says it went better than expected, in the video you just pointed out.

[Pardalis]

Yo I aint sympathyzing osama. Of course he's guilty of many terror activities in the past. Maybe that's what led you to easily believe he had involvement in sept 11 attacks.

SO WHY THE **** ARE YOU TAKING HIS WORD FOR IT?

[Gravy]

And PLEASE geggy, don't give me that crap about his ring. If he can disrespect the Quran by killing thousands of people, I don't think disrespecting the Quran by puting on a ring should bother him.
He wears a ring in several photos taken at different times. In the confession video, he and the guy next to him are wearing gold rings, while they chat with the shaykh.

[Dr Adequate]

The wtc buildings were intacted when the basement bomb exploded (like in 93). In event of building implosion, demo crew strips and cuts cores to weaken the structure. Basement bomb blast the bottom portion of the building's core first, then everything comes down. The bottom core of WTC was blasted to weaken the bottom portion of the core. Then the top portion was possibly blasted when it first came down. Explosive charges began to set off in timely pattern to cut and weaken the structure. How would this process melt steel?

[Gravy]

The wtc buildings were intacted when the basement bomb exploded (like in 93). In event of building implosion, demo crew strips and cuts cores to weaken the structure. Basement bomb blast the bottom portion of the building's core first, then everything comes down. The bottom core of WTC was blasted to weaken the bottom portion of the core. Then the top portion was possibly blasted when it first came down. Explosive charges began to set off in timely pattern to cut and weaken the structure.
geggy go ga-ga-goo-goo

[Pardalis]

Yo I aint sympathyzing osama. Of course he's guilty of many terror activities in the past. Maybe that's what led you to easily believe he had involvement in sept 11 attacks.

Can't you see how illogical this sounds?

You've been lessening Al Qaeda's importance in this 9/11 equation from day one! I think that's a cause for concern. It's complete stupidity.

[cloudshipsrule]

The bottom core of WTC was blasted to weaken the bottom portion of the core. Then the top portion was possibly blasted when it first came down. Explosive charges began to set off in timely pattern to cut and weaken the structure.

Utter nonsense! JUST LOOK AT THE WAY THE BUILDINGS COLLAPSED. Really; Take 15 seconds and look at the way the buildings collapsed. Damn it, man! Had the bottom portion of the core been weakened by explosions designed to take down the building, tens of thousands of tons of top floors collapsing on themselves would have caused the ENTIRE building to collapse simultaneously, or you would have at least seen the bottom of the building shift under the weight of the collapsing floors.

Or are you saying that some demolition crew was SO GOOD that they calculated the exact number of support members to cut, the exact number to remove and the exact amount of explosive force necessary to simply weaken the bottom of the building just enough so that ONLY when REST OF THE ENTIRE FRIGGIN' BUILDING finally landed on the bottom floors, the bottom floors actually collapsed? Is that what you're saying? If so, what in hell would that have accomplished? Gravity is a whole lot cheaper.

[chipmunk stew]

How would this process melt steel?And perhaps more importantly, how would it keep steel molten over a period of days or weeks?

[Gravy]

fbi.gov updates osama's file on Nov 01. Sept 11, the mecca of all Osama's terror activities, was not mentioned...
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm
The update was to the reward info:
The Rewards For Justice Program, United States Department of State, is offering a reward of up to $25 million for information leading directly to the apprehension or conviction of Usama Bin Laden. An additional $2 million is being offered through a program developed and funded by the Airline Pilots Association and the Air Transport Association.

Fool.

[aggle-rithm]

Yo I aint sympathyzing osama. Of course he's guilty of many terror activities in the past. Maybe that's what led you to easily believe he had involvement in sept 11 attacks.

geg-gy and Osa-ma
Sittin' in a tree,
K-I-S-S-I-N-G! ....

[Gravy]

Utter nonsense! JUST LOOK AT THE WAY THE BUILDINGS COLLAPSED. Really; Take 15 seconds and look at the way the buildings collapsed. Damn it, man! Had the bottom portion of the core been weakened by explosions designed to take down the building, tens of thousands of tons of top floors collapsing on themselves would have caused the ENTIRE building to collapse simultaneously, or you would have at least seen the bottom of the building shift under the weight of the collapsing floors.

Or are you saying that some demolition crew was SO GOOD that they calculated the exact number of support members to cut, the exact number to remove and the exact amount of explosive force necessary to simply weaken the bottom of the building just enough so that ONLY when REST OF THE ENTIRE FRIGGIN' BUILDING finally landed on the bottom floors, the bottom floors actually collapsed? Is that what you're saying? If so, what in hell would that have accomplished? Gravity is a whole lot cheaper.
Welcome to the forum, cloudshipsrule. Good post. Since you're new here, you probably aren't aware of bottom-core-weakening-temporary-antigravity-bomb technology. It's one of those things the Project for the New American Century were on about in their "New Pearl Harbor" missive. Stick around. geggy will tell you all about it.

[DavidJames]

The wtc buildings were intacted when the basement bomb exploded (like in 93). In event of building implosion, demo crew strips and cuts cores to weaken the structure. Basement bomb blast the bottom portion of the building's core first, then everything comes down. The bottom core of WTC was blasted to weaken the bottom portion of the core. Then the top portion was possibly blasted when it first came down. Explosive charges began to set off in timely pattern to cut and weaken the structure.Considering you have provided no evidence what so ever to support this claim, I have to assume you are simply lying.

Geggy: Why are you lying?

[NobbyNobbs]

I'm sayin that the bush administration has a stranglehold on the media just as hitler did during the nazi regime. I


Gigli, if this is true, it's absolutely astounding that the news is allowed to report a drop in the Prez's approval rating every time it happens. Shouldn't they be gagging anchormen left and right?

[Manny]

Yo I aint sympathyzing osama. Of course he's guilty of many terror activities in the past. Maybe that's what led you to easily believe he had involvement in sept 11 attacks.You certainly aren't with us. "Us" being defined here as people who are not with al Qaeda.

[delphi_ote]

Paragshenis...

Nano-nookular containing thermite...

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=nanotech&sc=&id=14105&pg=1
a) It's still just thermite. Faster and hotter burning, but still not an explosive.
b) What the holy hell is "nano-nuclear"? Are you implying they used a nuclear weapon in New York City and nobody knows about it? That would be your most ignorant claim yet.
c) How did they use a weapon which was being researched in 2005 in 2001? Do they have time machines as well?
d) Why do you trust anything in this article? It's from a mainstream source, and the people reporting the results are government scientists. You are totally inconsistent about what constitutes a trustworthy source.

[cloudshipsrule]

Gravy,

Thanks for the welcome! I have been doing a lot of research on Feng-Shui-induced paranormal-explosions, which is why the WTC collapse is of interest to me. The Bush administration had no hand in the WTC terrorist attack. A force much more sinister than Bush and his cronies is behind the collapse of the buildings. I have no doubt that terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into the buildings, but why the buildings actually collapsed is up for debate. It is simply a theory at this point in time, and there are a few dots left to connect, but I believe this:

Minoru Yamasaki, the designer of the WTC buildings, was born in Seattle, but just happened to have an Asian-sounding name. Chinatown is located in Manhattan. Just coincidence?

Minoru also designed the Eastern Airlines Unit Terminal in Boston in 1968, just 33 years before 9/11, which is a multiple of 11. Just coincidence?

I believe that Minoru was heavily involved in Feng-Shui, and the WTC buildings are an example of Feng-Shui gone awry. The WTC buildings were so heavily influenced by Minoru's belief in Feng-Shui that they experienced a phenomenon I'm going to coin called 'Feng-Shui Guo Zai', or 'Feng-Shui Overload'.

The combined forces of the plane's impact and the Feng-Shui Guo Zai actually created paranormal-explosions in the building's core, ultimately leading to the building's collapse. Or do you think it's simply coincidence that Minoru died in 1986, just 15 years prior to 9/11, which is not a multiple of 11?

[CurtC]

hmmm, intriguing theory. So the arrangement of the stairwells and elevator shafts in the center of the towers didn't let the negative energy out, then when the airliners hit, there was a surfeit of negative energy which built up until it exploded, causing smoke and dust to puff out of the windows, and brought the whole building down? That would explain a lot.

There seems to be something missing: conspiracy. Please go re-work your theory until it involves Globalists and the Carlyle Group.

[hellaeon]

Ahhh bottom of the gene pool I feel we have found....

[delphi_ote]

Ahhh bottom of the gene pool I feel we have found....
Why are you talking like Yoda all the sudden, hellaeon?

[Belz...]

The wtc buildings were intacted when the basement bomb exploded (like in 93). In event of building implosion, demo crew strips and cuts cores to weaken the structure. Basement bomb blast the bottom portion of the building's core first, then everything comes down. The bottom core of WTC was blasted to weaken the bottom portion of the core. Then the top portion was possibly blasted when it first came down. Explosive charges began to set off in timely pattern to cut and weaken the structure.

That's still contradictory. If the top part comes down, there's no need to weaken the bottom part. The hammer effect will be enough.

You also speak of those things as though you knew, but you've been shown consistently wrong on all your claims so far, so there's no reason to be so sure of yourself.

[c4ts]

Can't you see how illogical this sounds?

You've been lessening Al Qaeda's importance in this 9/11 equation from day one! I think that's a cause for concern. It's complete stupidity.

Suppose Al Qaeda wanted more recruits in the United States. They might try improving their image by removing themselves from 9/11 and placing blame on the U.S. government. Claims of a massive government conspiracy in a huge disaster might be what it takes to turn the people against democracy, paving the way for anarchy and the militants can take power without a government to stop them. But then again, Al Qaeda only wants Muslims and converts to fight for them. Geggy isn't arguing for Islam... yet.

[geggy]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044574a8e98c58.jpg
http://www.september11news.com/Dec13_OsamaVideoText3.jpg

Close but no cigar. Nice photoshopping job, by the way. I graduated from RIT with a degree in imaging techonology. Can you please provide the top picture with the subtitle? Thanks.

if you want to look at more pictures, you can go here...http://www.september11news.com/OsamaEvidence.htm

Next osama video tape came at the most convience time for the Bush administration...just 3 days before the '04 election.

http://www.geocities.com/iseepee57/obl20.jpg

"But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah." -Osama turned into comedian.

Full transcript here...http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F.htm

(01/19/06 -- DURHAM) - A Duke professor says he is doubtful about Thursday's audiotape from Osama bin Laden.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=3828678

One of the many skeptics of the audio tapes that are consistently put out to the public.

[Belz...]

Yo I aint sympathyzing osama. Of course he's guilty of many terror activities in the past. Maybe that's what led you to easily believe he had involvement in sept 11 attacks.

Again, that's not proof. That's another inane claim on your part.

Sheesh! Do you have ANY idea what it means to research, or back up a claim, or anything ?

29 you say ? Months ?

[Belz...]

Close but no cigar. Nice photoshopping job, by the way. I graduated from RIT with a degree in imaging techonology. Can you please provide the top picture with the subtitle? Thanks.

What ? Are you claiming that he doctored the photo to make it LOOK like Bin Laden ?

What ? Are we ALL part of the cover-up, now ?

[c4ts]

That's still contradictory. If the top part comes down, there's no need to weaken the bottom part. The hammer effect will be enough.

You also speak of those things as though you knew, but you've been shown consistently wrong on all your claims so far, so there's no reason to be so sure of yourself.

Perhaps you should ask Geggy for photos of the bottom explosion happening before the planes hit.

Oh, and how much molten steel do you normally find after a controlled demolition?

[c4ts]

hmmm, intriguing theory. So the arrangement of the stairwells and elevator shafts in the center of the towers didn't let the negative energy out, then when the airliners hit, there was a surfeit of negative energy which built up until it exploded, causing smoke and dust to puff out of the windows, and brought the whole building down? That would explain a lot.

There seems to be something missing: conspiracy. Please go re-work your theory until it involves Globalists and the Carlyle Group.
Also Jews and homosexuals. They're always blowing things up with chi!

[Dr Adequate]

"But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah."-Osama turned into comedian. Yes, I see it all now!

Osama bin Laden uses sarcasm. Therefore Bush destroyed the twin towers using his magic powers of TEH CONTROLLED DEMOLITION THAT MELTS TEH STEEL!!!!!

It all fits together like an intricate jigsaw.

[c4ts]

Yes, I see it all now!

Osama bin Laden uses sarcasm. Therefore Bush destroyed the twin towers using his magic powers of TEH CONTROLLED DEMOLITION THAT MELTS TEH STEEL!!!!!

It all fits together like an intricate jigsaw.

He knows it was sarcasm because he's Bin Laden's close personal friend!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

He knows it was sarcasm because he's Bin Laden's close personal friend!

Now, this does bring up an interesting, if far fetched, idea. With the pervasiveness of the internet and information transfer the possibilities of psyop and disinformation distribution has gone up. Regarding a gov't conspiracy, is it not equally as possible that the terrorist organizations are involved in spreading disinformation, half-truths, and outright lies in an effort to further their cause?

Geggery, how do we know that you, and the loose changers, are not, in fact, members of an anti-American terrorist organization?

[brodski]

hmmm, intriguing theory. So the arrangement of the stairwells and elevator shafts in the center of the towers didn't let the negative energy out, then when the airliners hit, there was a surfeit of negative energy which built up until it exploded, causing smoke and dust to puff out of the windows, and brought the whole building down? That would explain a lot.

There seems to be something missing: conspiracy. Please go re-work your theory until it involves Globalists and the Carlyle Group.
What the MSM wont report is how Minoru Yamasaki was driven to distraction during the time he was designing the WTC, and could therefore not accurately predict the tremendous mystical forces which the design could harness. The cause of his distraction? His socks kept disappearing! (Nice work there Bob!)This distraction non only allowed the greatest Fung Shui disaster known to man, but also allowed elements linked to the Carlisle group, International Zionists and the Coco cola corporation, to change the design specs so that the central core was built in such a way as to work as a giant antenna for negative psychic energy, the results of such nefarious architecture can be seen in the documentary "Ghostbusters" released in 1984, jut 2 years before Minoru Yamasaki died, in roman numerals (favoured by the knights Templar) 2 is represented as II, which looks both like the number 11, and the twin towers. Also 11-9 (as 9/11 is written in Europe) is a mathematical formula which = 2. Coincidence? I think not!

[Dr Adequate]

He knows it was sarcasm because he's Bin Laden's close personal friend! My real name is Rumsfeld ... don't tell anyone, it's a secret.

[Pardalis]

Gravy,

Thanks for the welcome! I have been doing a lot of research on Feng-Shui-induced paranormal-explosions, which is why the WTC collapse is of interest to me. The Bush administration had no hand in the WTC terrorist attack. A force much more sinister than Bush and his cronies is behind the collapse of the buildings. I have no doubt that terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into the buildings, but why the buildings actually collapsed is up for debate. It is simply a theory at this point in time, and there are a few dots left to connect, but I believe this:

Minoru Yamasaki, the designer of the WTC buildings, was born in Seattle, but just happened to have an Asian-sounding name. Chinatown is located in Manhattan. Just coincidence?

Minoru also designed the Eastern Airlines Unit Terminal in Boston in 1968, just 33 years before 9/11, which is a multiple of 11. Just coincidence?

I believe that Minoru was heavily involved in Feng-Shui, and the WTC buildings are an example of Feng-Shui gone awry. The WTC buildings were so heavily influenced by Minoru's belief in Feng-Shui that they experienced a phenomenon I'm going to coin called 'Feng-Shui Guo Zai', or 'Feng-Shui Overload'.

The combined forces of the plane's impact and the Feng-Shui Guo Zai actually created paranormal-explosions in the building's core, ultimately leading to the building's collapse. Or do you think it's simply coincidence that Minoru died in 1986, just 15 years prior to 9/11, which is not a multiple of 11?

Nominated!

[Gravy]

'Feng-Shui Overload'.

My new favorite theory! Beat that, geggy!:D

[Shrinker]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044574a8e98c58.jpg
http://www.september11news.com/Dec13_OsamaVideoText3.jpg

Close but no cigar. Nice photoshopping job, by the way. I graduated from RIT with a degree in imaging techonology. Can you please provide the top picture with the subtitle? Thanks.


Geggy, with your degree in imaging technology, I'm assuming you've considered the obvious: that the image you supplied has been compressed vertically in order to accomodate the subtitles. Hence Osama looking a little more squat. The way you pointedly ask for Gravy's image with subtitle suggests maybe you have...

Do you have a copy of the video without the goverment added subtitles? So as to compare pixel aspect ratios...

[Pardalis]

"But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah." -Osama turned into comedian.

You've quoted Bin Laden quoting Michael Moore. You see now how much harm Moore has done, his films help even the world's #1 terrorist!

[Pardalis]

Geggy, with your degree in imaging technology, I'm assuming you've considered the obvious: that the image you supplied has been compressed vertically in order to accomodate the subtitles. Hence Osama looking a little more squat. The way you pointedly ask for Gravy's image with subtitle suggests maybe you have...

Do you have a copy of the video without the goverment added subtitles? So as to compare pixel aspect ratios...

You are my new hero Shrinker! I couldn't have said it better.

[Gravy]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044574a8e98c58.jpg
http://www.september11news.com/Dec13_OsamaVideoText3.jpg

Close but no cigar. Nice photoshopping job, by the way.

No photoshopping involved, geggy. It's a screenshot straight from the video. I'm not going back to find that exact frame for you in the hour-long video. I suggest you do as I did and watch it yourself. How about when Osama comes in the door and has to duck? His face sure as hell looks like Osama. Stop baing a baby.

When are you going to answer my question about the 1975 fire as opposed to the 9/11 attacks? It was a really simple question, and I've asked four times now, geggy. What seems to be the problem?

[Shrinker]

You are my new hero Shrinker! I couldn't have said it better.

Aw shucks, stop it. :blush:

[Pardalis]

I really want to tell you guys how reassuring it is to know that there is still some people in this world that are intelligent and sensible. You are all my heroes.

[rwguinn]

is it my imagination, or what, but the CT loosers seem to be at the bottom of the barrel.
I mean, we had a couple or three of them come in, take a couple of swings, but eventually, after proving that they couldn't hit the fastball, retired the side in dissarray.
Now comes geggy, whose curveballs, sliders, and insistence that the plate be moved, expanded, and/or shrunk has resulted in a true rout.
Shouldn't we call mercy rule and get this over with, or is the thrill of putting the ball over the fence every time just too much fun to give up?

Um. Nevermind. Hitting so solid should not be denied...
go for it guys. 57-0, bottom of the first, no outs. Gravy--you'd up. Delphi--on deck.

[Shrinker]

geggy's good practice for us newbies. Like a lion bringing home a half dead rat for the cubs to play with.

[Manny]

Shouldn't we call mercy rule and get this over with, or is the thrill of putting the ball over the fence every time just too much fun to give up?

Um. Nevermind. Hitting so solid should not be denied...
go for it guys. 57-0, bottom of the first, no outs. Gravy--you'd up. Delphi--on deck.I dunno. Truth be told, I could really use a good recipe for Mexican-style corn on the cob with chile and queso cotija.

[Regnad Kcin]

...I graduated from RIT with a degree in imaging techonology...Thank you for the indirect answer to my direct question. However, you neglected this portion, here asked for the fourth time:

What do you do for a living?

[Ramooone]

they couldnt coverup the vice president shooting a guy

[Ramooone]

geggy geggy geggy

This administration couldnt hide the fact that the president choked on a pretzel!!!!!!!!!

you know how easy it is to cover up choking on a pretzel?

you know that new PNAC document: Pretzel for a new american century, it said without a catastrophic choking incident like the one his father had in tokyo........im not even going to waste my funny on you geggy.

[Pardalis]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044574a8e98c58.jpg
http://www.september11news.com/Dec13_OsamaVideoText3.jpg

Geggy, with your degree in imaging technology, I'm assuming you've considered the obvious: that the image you supplied has been compressed vertically in order to accomodate the subtitles. Hence Osama looking a little more squat. The way you pointedly ask for Gravy's image with subtitle suggests maybe you have...

Do you have a copy of the video without the goverment added subtitles? So as to compare pixel aspect ratios...

I keep coming back to this post. Man, this is DEVASTATING! Not only does it completely demolish the Ossama fake tape theory, but it demolishes geggy's credibility in HIS OWN FIELD of expertise! Again, congrats Shrinker!:D

[Stellafane]

I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but then it suddenly evolved from offensive idiocy to low comedy. The turning point for me was when geggy accused National Geographic of being at the pinnacle of the US disinformation machine! National farking Geographic! That mag we all snuck peeks at in the high school library because you have a good chance of spying some native boobage! The primary mouthpiece for the CIA! Not CNN or Time or some such obvious news outlet, but National Geographic! What's next, Field and Stream taken over by the FBI? Sky and Telescope run by the Trilateral Commission? Stamp Collecting Monthly a front for the Illuminati??

My God, I can't stay away from this thread. It's revealed in me something I should be very ashamed of, and perhaps someday I will: I have a sadistic streak. I was never a kid who liked to pull the wings off insects, but now all those repressed urges are apparently boiling to the surface. Because truth to tell, I'm thoroughly enjoying seeing geggy skewered at every turn. It's like watching a blindfolded man running around in a field full of people holding cattle prods. Wherever he goes he gets zapped. His skin is covered in welts, but he keeps running around, convinced that every time his skin meets another prod it's somehow a victory. I'm sure I'm a bad person for finding this so entertaining, but for the time being...A HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[chipmunk stew]

I dunno. Truth be told, I could really use a good recipe for Mexican-style corn on the cob with chile and queso cotija.I'm starting to imagine how nice it would be to see an adorable picture of a fuzzy little kitten.

[CptColumbo]

At this point, I almost wish someone else from Loose Change would come over and inject something new into this thread.

[money]

Geggy I was wondering if you could give us an update as far as your conspiracy buddies reaction to the picture of the workers cutting those column? Remember, you said it was evidence of molten steel, failing to notice the worker in the lower right corner.

Also, found a controlled demolition resulting in molten steel yet? We're still waiting.

[Dr Adequate]

This administration couldnt hide the fact that the president choked on a pretzel!!!!!!!!!

you know how easy it is to cover up choking on a pretzel?You fool! That's what they WANT you to think! The pretzel was all part of an elaborate salty smokescreen of deception and lies!

Since no-one could possibly be as stupid as Bush appears to be, it must all be be an elaborate act to conceal the fact that he is a Machiavellian criminal mastermind.

The really clever thing about this conspiracy --- the thing that makes it stand head and shoulders above the feeble efforts of the Gnostics and Templars and Jews and Masons and Illuminati and Small Grays and everyone else who is secretly running the world --- is that in this conspiracy the people who are actually running the world are also the people who appear to be running the world.

This is, of course, a cunning double bluff. While we think the USA is under the control of its President, George W Bush, it is in fact secretly being controlled by a man known only as "George W Bush", who poses as President of some country or other in order to divert attention from his real activities.

To put it another way, Bush is his own patsy.

He may be evil, but you've got to admire the diabolical cunning of the man.

[Belz...]

I really want to tell you guys how reassuring it is to know that there is still some people in this world that are intelligent and sensible. You are all my heroes.

Stop it right there, Parialis (DAMN! stupid habit, now.) I may be intelligent, but I am in NO way sensible.

[kookbreaker]

I'm starting to imagine how nice it would be to see an adorable picture of a fuzzy little kitten.

I've used this one too many times. Its gonna wear out!

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/kookbreaker/Meeper.jpg

[Belz...]

Because truth to tell, I'm thoroughly enjoying seeing geggy skewered at every turn. It's like watching a blindfolded man running around in a field full of people holding cattle prods.

That's sig material, right there.

[Belz...]

I've used this one too many times. Its gonna wear out!

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/kookbreaker/Meeper.jpg

Dammit, kook. Why'd you have to ruin this thread for us ?

Here ya go... new theme.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Cow.jpg/375px-Cow.jpg

[Ramooone]

You fool! That's what they WANT you to think! The pretzel was all part of an elaborate salty smokescreen of deception and lies!

Since no-one could possibly be as stupid as Bush appears to be, it must all be be an elaborate act to conceal the fact that he is a Machiavellian criminal mastermind.

The really clever thing about this conspiracy --- the thing that makes it stand head and shoulders above the feeble efforts of the Gnostics and Templars and Jews and Masons and Illuminati and Small Grays and everyone else who is secretly running the world --- is that in this conspiracy the people who are actually running the world are also the people who appear to be running the world.

This is, of course, a cunning double bluff. While we think the USA is under the control of its President, George W Bush, it is in fact secretly being controlled by a man known only as "George W Bush", who poses as President of some country or other in order to divert attention from his real activities.

To put it another way, Bush is his own patsy.

He may be evil, but you've got to admire the diabolical cunning of the man.

all the pieces fit now. my god. how could i have beeen so blind... WHYYYYYY WHYYYYYYY!!!!! (dramatic movie ending)

[juryjone]

What's next, Field and Stream taken over by the FBI? Sky and Telescope run by the Trilateral Commission? Stamp Collecting Monthly a front for the Illuminati??


Why not? I hear Boy's Life is being handled by the Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks, I'll be here all week.

[sackett]

Somebody here or in a related thread speculated about what drives the conspiracy types. Several suggestions came up:

1. Are they trying to deny truths they find too awful to endure? (A humane idea; hell, I wanted to blank out that fearful day.)

2. Are they just paranoid? Maybe they can’t bring themselves to believe anything authoritative.

3. Are they delusional, i.e., simply believers by nature?

While all of the above may be involved, I think it’s nothing more complicated than vanity: CTing allows them to be know-it-alls.

The Cter thinks, “Am I poor bumbling nobody? A failed gas-pump jockey living in condemned housing? A dropout, a demi-literate failure, a cull? No, by god! I have unique knowledge, I’ve penetrated the schemes of the best evil minds in the world! –I- by Jesus know things all those lumpen-intellectuals can’t grasp! –I- am superior to ALL of them!”

You’ll note how condescending they get when first contradicted: “Lissen, pal, you ain’t in the picture, ya ain’t even in the frame yet. Lemme clue you in, lemme bring ya up to speed here!” Now the tables are turned; in the midst of a lifetime of inadequacy, suddenly they are the brightest kids in class. From Special Education they make the leap to Gifted and Talented! (I’m using grammar-school terminology on purpose.)

If they’re challenged further, they get abusive, pretty damn quickly: “Nyahh, yer nuthen but sheeple! Ya can’t even SEE how the system works! Jerks!” Etc. Their far, far greater knowledge, wisdom, and insight entitle them to be abrasive to anybody, everybody, all the time, and to the end of their days.

So it’s fun to be a conspiracy believer. It’s gratifying.

And yours truly has had it up to the back teeth with these pathetic jokers. I don’t use smileys; is there a puking one?

[Ramooone]

am i the only person on here who wants to start making up fake evidence for CTers to see how far it gets?

[Shrinker]

I keep coming back to this post. Man, this is DEVASTATING! Not only does it completely demolish the Ossama fake tape theory, but it demolishes geggy's credibility in HIS OWN FIELD of expertise! Again, congrats Shrinker!:D

Is that all they had? Wow, I wasn't even concentrating. I think geggy has to take the credit though. He posted both images and gave us the hint about the subtitle. Shame he couldn't connect the dots himself...

That being said, I haven't really proved my case. Is there a link to the full video somewhere? I'd like to take a look when I get the time.

[Shrinker]

am i the only person on here who wants to start making up fake evidence for CTers to see how far it gets?

You certainly aren't. The key is though to design your evidence so that it will eventually blow-up in the face of whoever uses it. Something like... erm... "did you know the woman in charge of National Geographic is a CIA agent..."

[Belz...]

am i the only person on here who wants to start making up fake evidence for CTers to see how far it gets?

Oooooooooo.... <Drools>

[Shrinker]

How about a prize for whoever gets their 'evidence' in Loose Change 3? Hey there's a $1M lying around doing nothing...

[geggy]

No photoshopping involved, geggy. It's a screenshot straight from the video. I'm not going back to find that exact frame for you in the hour-long video. I suggest you do as I did and watch it yourself. How about when Osama comes in the door and has to duck? His face sure as hell looks like Osama. Stop baing a baby.

When are you going to answer my question about the 1975 fire as opposed to the 9/11 attacks? It was a really simple question, and I've asked four times now, geggy. What seems to be the problem?

I'd give you an answer if you give me the video. I'm very interested in seeing it. PM it to me or whatever, it doesn't have to be a full hour. Just 5 minutes for a quick download. Then I could send it to 911myths.com for them to post it on their website. Also I asked you to provide me a link as to what started the fire inside the wtc7 then I will answer you your question so nyah nyah nyah.

heh.

Sure argue with me on my weakest point of sept 11. Post the question again. I may have missed it. I'll try my best to answer it.

You've quoted Bin Laden quoting Michael Moore. You see now how much harm Moore has done, his films help even the world's #1 terrorist!

EXACTLY I'm a little inclined to think that Karl Rove, the white house's spinmaster, may have written the script for the Osama video to paint Michael Moore and the democrats as terrorists. Correct me wrong but didn't F911 documentry come out the previous summer or the year before? That Karl Rove is one clever diabolical dude, even I have to be impressed with his insipidness.

[Dr Adequate]

all the pieces fit now. my god. how could i have beeen so blind... WHYYYYYY WHYYYYYYY!!!!! (dramatic movie ending) I have proof. Photographic proof.

Here is a photograph of "George W Bush" (real name, George W Bush) :

http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/3834/bush12lj.jpg

And here is a photograph of George W Bush (who goes by the alias "George W Bush") :

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8964/bush21hc.jpg

Are we really supposed to believe that these are one and the same person?

They must think we're idiots.

[Dr Adequate]

EXACTLY I'm a little inclined to think that Karl Rove, the white house's spinmaster, may have written the script for the Osama video to paint Michael Moore and the democrats as terrorists. Correct me wrong but didn't F911 documentry come out the previous summer or the year before? That Karl Rove is one clever diabolical dude, even I have to be impressed with his insipidness. Apart from anything else, "insipid" really really doesn't mean what you think it does.

[aggle-rithm]

I'm a little inclined to think that Karl Rove, the white house's spinmaster, may have written the script for the Osama video to paint Michael Moore and the democrats as terrorists. Correct me wrong but didn't F911 documentry come out the previous summer or the year before? That Karl Rove is one clever diabolical dude, even I have to be impressed with his insipidness.

No one thinks Micheal Moore is a terrorist. A lying, egotistical weasel, maybe, but not a terrorist.

[NobbyNobbs]

geggy's good practice for us newbies. Like a lion bringing home a half dead rat for the cubs to play with.

Agreed, yes, and absolutely!

I must admit, I was nervous about posting. With the likes of chipmunk, delphi, and gravy, it felt like I was bringing a knife to a gunfight. But Gaggy is helping me to sharpen my skeptical teeth. I appreciate it, G!

[aggle-rithm]

The wtc buildings were intacted when the basement bomb exploded (like in 93). In event of building implosion, demo crew strips and cuts cores to weaken the structure. Basement bomb blast the bottom portion of the building's core first, then everything comes down. The bottom core of WTC was blasted to weaken the bottom portion of the core. Then the top portion was possibly blasted when it first came down. Explosive charges began to set off in timely pattern to cut and weaken the structure.

Do the malopropisms and garbled syntax sound familiar...?

Yes, it's GW BUSH HIMSELF!!!

No wonder he won't disclose what he does for a living! It'd be a dead giveaway!

What diabolical plot is he cooking up here?!?

[Ramooone]

How about a prize for whoever gets their 'evidence' in Loose Change 3? Hey there's a $1M lying around doing nothing...

i agree to that. i bet i can get something on the loose change boards by the end of the day.

[NoZed Avenger]

What's next, Field and Stream taken over by the FBI? Sky and Telescope run by the Trilateral Commission? Stamp Collecting Monthly a front for the Illuminati??

Drat. She knows too much.

Begin operation "false friendly."


So . . .

Good to see you on the thread, Stellafane. Nice post.

Is that a new shirt?

[Regnad Kcin]

geggy, for the sixth time:

What do you do for a living?

[Ersby]

Sure argue with me on my weakest point of sept 11.Well, all your "strongest" arguments have been debunked. Your weak arguments are all that's left.

[c4ts]

Now, this does bring up an interesting, if far fetched, idea. With the pervasiveness of the internet and information transfer the possibilities of psyop and disinformation distribution has gone up. Regarding a gov't conspiracy, is it not equally as possible that the terrorist organizations are involved in spreading disinformation, half-truths, and outright lies in an effort to further their cause?

Geggery, how do we know that you, and the loose changers, are not, in fact, members of an anti-American terrorist organization?

Yeah, I thought about it a few posts back. My question to Geggy which he never really answered still stands.

[Regnad Kcin]

Yeah, I thought about it a few posts back...And I earlier floated the possibility that the CT-ers are the work of Rove, Inc.

[Manny]

My question to Geggy which he never really answered still stands.I think that's why Rox never came back -- he knew people were remembering the list of questions he declined to answer and he couldn't get away with letting the thread progress to the next page.

[Stellafane]

Why not? I hear Boy's Life is being handled by the Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks, I'll be here all week.

Why, you sick, twisted...how dare you...that was so uncalled for...oh, who am I kidding? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[delphi_ote]

I keep coming back to this post. Man, this is DEVASTATING! Not only does it completely demolish the Ossama fake tape theory, but it demolishes geggy's credibility in HIS OWN FIELD of expertise! Again, congrats Shrinker!:D
He claims it is his field of expertise. I have my doubts. Any Farkers here reminded of this cliche?
I work for an imaging technology consulting company.

So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies.

Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.

But trust me.... You don't.

I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you dont know what you are talking about.

This is how bad info gets passed around.

If you dont know about the topic....Dont make yourself sound like you do.

Cuz some people belive anythng they hear.

[Belz...]

Also I asked you to provide me a link as to what started the fire inside the wtc7 then I will answer you your question so nyah nyah nyah.

How stupid do you think those government uber-globalists are if they can't even make the WTC7 collapse inconscpicuous ?

[Ersby]

Hey, I just noticed I joined this forum on the 12th September 2001. Weird. I have no memory of it at all (perhaps understandably).

[Belz...]

I must admit, I was nervous about posting. With the likes of chipmunk, delphi, and gravy, it felt like I was bringing a knife to a gunfight.

I prefer blunt instruments, myself.

[Regnad Kcin]

He claims it is his field of expertise. I have my doubts...He also claims to have impregnated a woman. I suppose anything's possible.

[delphi_ote]

You fool! That's what they WANT you to think! The pretzel was all part of an elaborate salty smokescreen of deception and lies!

Since no-one could possibly be as stupid as Bush appears to be, it must all be be an elaborate act to conceal the fact that he is a Machiavellian criminal mastermind.

The really clever thing about this conspiracy --- the thing that makes it stand head and shoulders above the feeble efforts of the Gnostics and Templars and Jews and Masons and Illuminati and Small Grays and everyone else who is secretly running the world --- is that in this conspiracy the people who are actually running the world are also the people who appear to be running the world.

This is, of course, a cunning double bluff. While we think the USA is under the control of its President, George W Bush, it is in fact secretly being controlled by a man known only as "George W Bush", who poses as President of some country or other in order to divert attention from his real activities.

To put it another way, Bush is his own patsy.

He may be evil, but you've got to admire the diabolical cunning of the man.
This thread has just been comedy gold. I find myself forced to nominate you yet again, Dr. A.

[delphi_ote]

He also claims to have impregnated a woman. I suppose anything's possible.
:jaw-dropp
Tell me you're joking! They're breeding?!

[delphi_ote]

I think that's why Rox never came back -- he knew people were remembering the list of questions he declined to answer and he couldn't get away with letting the thread progress to the next page.
Well that and the fact that he couldn't type profanity in all caps and call people rude names.

[brodski]

I prefer blunt instruments, myself.
Maybe we could start a 9/11 CT band? You could be on blunt instruments whilst geggy plays the buffoon. The loosers could chime in, in chorus, singing the same old tune and Gravy, Delphi_ote & Chipmunk_stew could sing in a perfect counterpoint to the loosers, making groundbaking use of reason and facts.

[Blackwell]

I know I'm a few pages late on this, and I doubt the gegster will have an answer, but here goes anyway:
...The first public response from Osama bin Laden was read on September 16, 2001. He stated, "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation," which was broadcast by Qatar's Al-Jazeera satellite channel. This denial was broadcast on U.S. news networks and worldwide....
So, gegerator, why would the Bush administration - you know, the one with the stranglehold on worldwide media - allow this denial to be broadcast?

[Regnad Kcin]

I think that's why Rox never came back -- he knew people were remembering the list of questions he declined to answer and he couldn't get away with letting the thread progress to the next page.
My favorite martian was Alek, who, in post #256 stated:
...I am one of the most rational and sane people I know, and my friends and family would vouch for that......and then proceeded toward incoherence at top speed (which says what about his "friends and family"?).

[delphi_ote]

Maybe we could start a 9/11 CT band? You could be on blunt instruments whilst geggy plays the buffoon. The loosers could chime in, in chorus, singing the same old tune and Gravy, Delphi_ote & Chipmunk_stew could sing in a perfect counterpoint to the loosers, making groundbaking use of reason and facts.
Our first conver song should be Linkin Park's "The Truth." It sounds a lot like the Loosers. It's repetitive, bland, incomprehensible, melodramatic, never stops repeating the word "truth", and rambles a lot of incoherent paranoid crap.
You can't sleep, you're restless
and slightly obsessed with falling too deep
and malfunction, you're a virus
whose intention is ****ing up something (this is the best line of poetry ever written in the English Language)
You're a crater
on the face of a problem much greater
It's the violence, or lack thereof control
Body and soul, digging a hole
Is the blood stainless?
Enjoy the pain with accepting your grief
Are you finished?
Dumb ****ing question, don't let yourself fall asleep
Ressurect the intention
Once your vision is now mass-produced,
Imagine the insults a blessing
imagine accepting the truth

Imagine accepting the truth[x1,672]

The pendulum swinging
Hypnosis has taken control, now you linger
on a shadow of a doubt
Have you really figured what you're all about?
Don't trust your instincts
Just open the chamber where you keep those darkest regrets
All the things you've done wrong
Rebellious at heart all along
Is your leader a voice?
I'll stop there. It hurts my brain.

[WildCat]

Well I just got back from New Orleans last night ( had to make sure the bombs were successfully installed in the levee repairs awaiting the next hurricane we have scheduled ;)) and I see this thread is still kicking.

Seems like the same old same old - looser unable to answer a simpole direct question while moving goalposts and ignoring evidence that his "facts" are actually lies, while making up new "facts" at an astounding rate.

Geggy, can you answer the questions people have put to you please? Or are you a liar and a deciever?

[kookbreaker]

Our first conver song should be Linkin Park's "The Truth." It sounds a lot like the Loosers. It's repetitive, bland, incomprehensible, melodramatic, never stops repeating the word "truth", and rambles a lot of incoherent paranoid crap.

I'll stop there. It hurts my brain.

Follow it up with the Dead Milkmen's 'Stuart'



You know what Stuart? I like you. You're not like the other people here
in the trailer park. Oh no, don't get me wrong, they're fine people, good
Americans. But they're content to sit back, maybe watch a little Mork and
Mindy on channel 57. Maybe kick back a cool Coors 16-ouncer. They're
good fine people, Stuart. But they don't know what the queers are doing
to the soil.

You know that Johnny Werzner kid - the kid who delivers papers in the
neighborhood? He's a fine kid. Some of the neighbors say he smokes
crack, but I don't believe it. Anyway, for his 10th birthday, all he
wanted was a burrow owl, just like his old man. "Dad, get me a burrow
owl. I'll never ask for anything else as long as I live". So the guy
breaks down and buys him a burrow owl. Anyway at 10:30 the other night I
go out into my yard and there's the Werzner kid looking up in the tree. I
said, "What are you looking for?" He said, "I'm looking for my burrow
owl." I say, "Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick! Everybody knows that a
burrow owl lives in a hole in the ground! Why the hell do you think they
call it a burrow owl, anyway?!" Now Stuart, do you think a kid like that
is gonna know what the queers are doing to the soil?

I first became aware of this, about 10 years ago, the summer my oldest boy
Bill Jr. died. You know that carnival that comes to town every year?
Well this year it came with a ride called the Mixer. The man said "Keep
your head and arms inside the mixer at all times." But Bill Jr., he was a
daredevil, just like his old man. He was leaning out saying, "Hey
everybody! Look at me, look at me!" POW! He was decapitated. They found
his head over by the snowcone concession. A few days after that, I open
up the mail and there's a pamphlet in there, from Pueblo, Colorado. And
it's addressed to Bill Jr. And it's entitled, "Do you know what the
queers are doing to our soil?"

Now Stuart, if you look at the soil around any large U.S. city with a big
underground homosexual population - Des Moines, Iowa, perfect example.
Look at the soil around Des Moines, Stuart. You can't build on it, you
can't grow anything in it. The government says it's due to poor farming.
But I know what's really going on, Stuart. I know it's the queers.
They're in it with the aliens. They're building landing strips for gay
Martians. I swear to God.

You know what Stuart, I like you. You're not like the other people, here
in the trailer park.

[c4ts]

I mean, if you are going to think about conspiracies, the larger they are, the less likely. If you ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE a conpsiracy, (and there is no real reason that you should) you get a kind of dichotomy. Either the Loose Change videos and related CT material are fabricated, or the much grander network of evidence supporting that the buildings fell because they were struck by planes is false. The second involves greater skill at photomanipulation, the cooperation of every major news company, the cooperation of the entire U.S. government (who, last I knew, could never agree on anything), and vast, innumerable resources. Geggy called it a pyramid, suggesting that there is even hierarchy involved, with one individual at the top. And this has been going on for years, decades, etc... Whereas a Loose Change conspiracy requires far fewer resources and cooperation to create a video expressing a misinformed interpretation of one event, put it on the internet, and generate support. You don't have to fake any media companies because the net has no quality control! You can lie to millions and you don't have to go through a publisher or broadcaster, or anyone else who might object. You don't even need skill at photoshop because most of the theory is conjecture, the inability to find existing evidence, testimony, and ambiguous photos. Don't even bother to photoshop them, just leave them cropped (or don't) and let the CT interpretation sink in! You don't have to fake evidence so it looks like you PROVED something, all you have to do is convince people. All you need is a couple of guys, some video editing software, a computer, and an internet connection.

The larger the conspiracy, the more cooperation required, the more resources and skill that go into it, the more likely it is to fail. You have to do a lot just to make it happen, and all these things have to run smoothly all the time. If you have a small conspiracy, you only need to do a few things that succeed and you are done. You do less, so there is less possibility for error, and the overall process is much shorter and easier.

And look: Terrorists freakin' love the internet. They can spread their cause to the masses with the push of a button, e-mail anyone pdf files on how to make bombs and where to coordinate the next strike, set up websites to take donations. Al Qaeda spreads their beheading propaganda videos all over the place. It's the fastest, cheapest way to reach and influence a global audience, and these people know how it's done. The terrorists fill the niche of the conspirators in the lesser example quite nicely.

Now, that doesn't mean that Al Qaeda has to be solely responsible, it may be another terrorist organization, but they have a motive to attack and undermine the U.S. government. Whereas for the greater conspiracy's motives are "to keep themselves in power," which isn't much of a motive since you can accomplish much without need of a conspiracy. If they're already using the world's resources to do it and taking their sweet time with it, they have very little left of the world to gain from a comparitively enormous expendeture. In fact the damn thing is so nebulous you can't pin down a logical motive. Compare this to the Al Qaeda terrorists, who have actual political concerns, a hell of a lot to gain from undermining the U.S., and see themselves as heavily oppressed by an overwhelming Western dictatorship- the exact viewpoint of the Loose Change Videos and related CT's! (In all seriousness, I see this a coincidence, a side effect of radicalist philosophy, and those CT's are nothing more than a few paranoids and their basement-dwelling beardo followers, but hey, CT's are fun!)

And I ask you, which is more likely and possible: Simple things with complicated effects, or complicated things with complicated effects to create increasingly complex illusions of simple things with complicated effects?

You decide. Postulate plurality at your own risk!

[geggy]

Can anyone debunk this article?

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/cutter_charges_brought_down_wt.html

[Manny]

You first, gaggy. There's a list of questions for you. Answer them.

[Pangea]

This is only my second post, but I've been keeping up with this thread as much as possible.
What I find really laughable about the CTs is the fact that they want all of you to prove their claims didn't happen rather than proving that what they claim did happen.

[Mercutio]

Ben Folds (http://www.benfolds.com/)
"Bastard"
Close your eyes close your ears young man
You've seen and heard all an old man can
Spread the facts on the floor like a fan
throw away the ones that make you feel bad

...

So why you gotta act like you know when you don't know?
It's okay if you don't know everything
Why you gotta act like you know when you don't know?
It's okay if you don't know everything

[Gravy]

I'd give you an answer if you give me the video. I'm very interested in seeing it. PM it to me or whatever, it doesn't have to be a full hour. Just 5 minutes for a quick download. Then I could send it to 911myths.com for them to post it on their website. Also I asked you to provide me a link as to what started the fire inside the wtc7 then I will answer you your question so nyah nyah nyah.

heh.

Sure argue with me on my weakest point of sept 11. Post the question again. I may have missed it. I'll try my best to answer it.


May have missed it? This is the fifth time I've requested your response. The first was on this post. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1608901&postcount=2133)

Since you brought it up, what would say is your strongest argument that supports your hypothesis that the U.S. government is behind the attacks of 9/11?

You were an imaging major or something at RIT, but you can't pull up a common video on the internet? Methinks my little fixéd star of foolishness doth protest too much in order to avoideth the issue!. You accused me of altering my image, but are you now saying that your stills weren't screenshots that you made from video? Then how do you know WHERE they came from and that THEY weren't photoshopped?

sdited to fix grammar

[DavidJames]

This is only my second post, but I've been keeping up with this thread as much as possible.
What I find really laughable about the CTs is the fact that they want all of you to prove their claims didn't happen rather than proving that what they claim did happen.Welcome :)

The other thing you'll notice is none of their info comes from knowledgeable primary sources (unless they are misquoted, have quotes taken out of context, or bystanders saying stuff like, it sounded like an explosion). All their "evidence" is via video or still pictures.

[Shrinker]

Can anyone debunk this article?

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/cutter_charges_brought_down_wt.html

Yes, anyone can debunk that article using only information supplied in this very thread. Unless, amongst all that tripe, there was actually some previously undisclosed evidence. Perhaps to speed things along, you could identify the new juicy stuff...

[Gravy]

Can anyone debunk this article?

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/cutter_charges_brought_down_wt.html
It's a Christopher Bollyn article! From AFP! About Steven Jones! From geggy! That's FOUR of my all-time favorite things in one link!

geggy, please, please don't ever leave usl I will PAY you to stay here. You are more precious to me than a dumptruck full of gold beneath the World Trade Center. Have I told you lately that I love you?

[Gravy]

Well I just got back from New Orleans last night ( had to make sure the bombs were successfully installed in the levee repairs awaiting the next hurricane we have scheduled ;)) and I see this thread is still kicking.

Seems like the same old same old - looser unable to answer a simpole direct question while moving goalposts and ignoring evidence that his "facts" are actually lies, while making up new "facts" at an astounding rate.

Geggy, can you answer the questions people have put to you please? Or are you a liar and a deciever?

Welcome back, WildCat. Were you there for Jazzfest?
You see that we have a new star here. He's really basking in the limelight. He may seem lunkheaded, but compared to some folks out there he's downright reasonable. I had an encounter today with a guy who claims that my "Loose Change" critique didn't debunk a single point in that video.

Anyway, we saved a plate for you, so dig in before the vittles is cold.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Since geggery has left the land of rational posting, I'll throw something out that I haven't seen addressed as of yet:
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/videos/fiveframes.html

Thoughts?

[Pardalis]

Since geggery has left the land of rational posting, I'll throw something out that I haven't seen addressed as of yet:
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/videos/fiveframes.html

Thoughts?

Only that if you take only five frames of the second tower hit you'll get the same effect. With a faster camera we would have seen a plane hit the pentagon.

[Pardalis]

The other thing you'll notice is none of their info comes from knowledgeable primary sources (unless they are misquoted, have quotes taken out of context, or bystanders saying stuff like, it sounded like an explosion). All their "evidence" is via video or still pictures.

No primary sources links because according to geg they're not trustworthy, the Media is in on it!:eye-poppi

[Pardalis]

Still here geggy? Man you're a persistant SOB. Why don't you forget all this CT nonsense and take care of your daughter!

[hellaeon]

Why are you talking like Yoda all the sudden, hellaeon?

May be related to long game sessions of Star Wars Galaxies online....

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Only that if you take only five frames of the second tower hit you'll get the same effect. With a faster camera we would have seen a plane hit the pentagon.

Do we have a way of determining the film speed of the security camera?
Can we determine from the visual data the altitude of the aircraft on each frame?
Can anyone hook me up with these same frames on a sight that has not altered them? (the captioning I assume was applied by the hosting site)

[Pardalis]

I'm not sure how credible this source is yet, but it's interesting.

http://www.montalk.net/pentagon.html

[Gravy]

Since geggery has left the land of rational posting, I'll throw something out that I haven't seen addressed as of yet:
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/videos/fiveframes.html

Thoughts?
Yep, the CTers love that because it doesn't show the plane hitting. They ignore the 100+ eyewitnesses who saw a 757 hit. Supposedly at the Moussaoui trial other videos were played that do show the whole thing. Maybe they'll be released some day.

I'd like to ask the CTers if they believe that the Revolutionary War happened. There are no videos or photos from 1776-1782, so where's the proof?

[Gravy]

I'm not sure how credible this source is yet, but it's interesting.

http://www.montalk.net/pentagon.html

I love that site: "Dissecting misinformation...with more misinformation."

What about all the bodies that were identified? The personal effects? And what happened to flight 77 if it didn't hit the Penatgon?

[money]

Have I told you lately that I love you?

Who are you, Rod Stewart?

[emperorchaos]

Would someone care to give me a synopsis of this thread from about the middle of it onward? I was following it but I have been too busy to keep up.

Or is it the same old:
Conspiracy Theorist suggests evidence
Sceptics show evidence wrong or otherwise insufficient
Conspiracy Theorist suggests additional evidence more bizarre than the first
Which is also shown to be wrong.

That whole trite thing?

-=-=-=-

At any rate, it's nice to know that Delphi_Ote dislikes Linkin Park as much as I do. Perhaps we should start a thread on crappy music and why people like it. It's almost paranormal, that.

[Polaris]

It is clearly a controlled demolition in the forest!

And it must be on the moon - all that black smoke, gotta be a shortage of oxygen!

[Polaris]

Let's bet this is what geggy is going to answer you with:

from Americanfreepress

"A “sharp spike of short duration” is how seismologist Thorne Lay of University of California at Santa Cruz told AFP an underground nuclear explosion appears on a seismograph."

I wonder how long it will take before the Loosers start saying that it was a Zionist mini-nuke that took out the WTC and created the pools of molten metal - here's a fun little link to when Loosers and Holocaust deniers mate:

http://www.vialls.com/nuke/bali_nuke.htm

Because, we all know, bloodthirsty Muslim terrorists would never do anything like blow up innocent people.

[hellaeon]

Hey, I just noticed I joined this forum on the 12th September 2001. Weird. I have no memory of it at all (perhaps understandably).

conspiracy.

[hellaeon]

Maybe we could start a 9/11 CT band? You could be on blunt instruments whilst geggy plays the buffoon. The loosers could chime in, in chorus, singing the same old tune and Gravy, Delphi_ote & Chipmunk_stew could sing in a perfect counterpoint to the loosers, making groundbaking use of reason and facts.

im a drummer but for these guys i'll play the spoons.

* yes I am catching up with all the posts *

[CptColumbo]

I wonder how long it will take before the Loosers start saying that it was a Zionist mini-nuke that took out the WTC and created the pools of molten metal - here's a fun little link to when Loosers and Holocaust deniers mate:

Geggy already did back on post #2295

[CptColumbo]

BTW I like the planting evidence in Loose Change 3 challenge. At the very least they might get paranoid enough to start double checking their information.

[Gravy]

Would someone care to give me a synopsis of this thread from about the middle of it onward? I was following it but I have been too busy to keep up.

Or is it the same old:
Conspiracy Theorist suggests evidence
Sceptics show evidence wrong or otherwise insufficient
Conspiracy Theorist suggests additional evidence more bizarre than the first
Which is also shown to be wrong.

That whole trite thing?

That about says it, but I daresay WE'VE learned a lot from our research.

I do suggest that as an experiment, the next time geggy posts we all agree with him. No dissent. I wonder if he would be okay.

[Polaris]

I'd give you an answer if you give me the video. I'm very interested in seeing it. PM it to me or whatever, it doesn't have to be a full hour. Just 5 minutes for a quick download. Then I could send it to 911myths.com for them to post it on their website. Also I asked you to provide me a link as to what started the fire inside the wtc7 then I will answer you your question so nyah nyah nyah.

heh.

Sure argue with me on my weakest point of sept 11. Post the question again. I may have missed it. I'll try my best to answer it.



EXACTLY I'm a little inclined to think that Karl Rove, the white house's spinmaster, may have written the script for the Osama video to paint Michael Moore and the democrats as terrorists. Correct me wrong but didn't F911 documentry come out the previous summer or the year before? That Karl Rove is one clever diabolical dude, even I have to be impressed with his insipidness.

I'm dizzy.

[aggle-rithm]

Can anyone debunk this article?

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/cutter_charges_brought_down_wt.html

Whad'ya bet this Jones character has tenure?

[aggle-rithm]

I'm dizzy.

Your reaction is normal. Go with it. ;)

[geggy]

May have missed it? This is the fifth time I've requested your response. The first was on this post. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1608901&postcount=2133)

Since you brought it up, what would say is your strongest argument that supports your hypothesis that the U.S. government is behind the attacks of 9/11?

You were an imaging major or something at RIT, but you can't pull up a common video on the internet? Methinks my little fixéd star of foolishness doth protest too much in order to avoideth the issue!. You accused me of altering my image, but are you now saying that your stills weren't screenshots that you made from video? Then how do you know WHERE they came from and that THEY weren't photoshopped?

sdited to fix grammar
May have missed it? This is the fifth time I've requested your response. The first was on this post. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1608901&postcount=2133)

Since you brought it up, what would say is your strongest argument that supports your hypothesis that the U.S. government is behind the attacks of 9/11?

You were an imaging major or something at RIT, but you can't pull up a common video on the internet? Methinks my little fixéd star of foolishness doth protest too much in order to avoideth the issue!. You accused me of altering my image, but are you now saying that your stills weren't screenshots that you made from video? Then how do you know WHERE they came from and that THEY weren't photoshopped?

sdited to fix grammar

Hey there it is...I'll try my best to answer...please believe, I wasn't ignoring your question. Just that I'm being bombarded with different questions that Im having hard times catching up.

The 1975 fire,on the 11th floor fire was burning intensely at 700 degrees census for three hour. The fire then subsequntly spread from 9th floor to the 19th floor (yes it did as the repport indicated it), although it was small, the firemen were able to control and subside it. Yet the trusses and the core did not fail despite the weight load of the upper 90 floors that it held up . On sept 11, the fire was not as intense as it was in 1975, could not have reached anywhere near the melting temp point of the steel. Because the plane was flying at a high speed as it flew through the building as if it was a pin, and the flames shot out of the building hence only causing local damages in the area of the impact. The damages made to the concrete slabs that were embedded in the trusses had to be at least minimal. The fire could have not affected the trusses whatsoever, because the fire was nowhere burning intensely. Fuel only evaporizes in in a short period of time. You saw that most of fuel bursted into flames during the impact, thus very little puddle of fuel on the floor in the area of the impactwere burning off. The burning of office supplies couldn't have been hot enough for the core columns to fail.

And as for the still frames of the fake osama video came from this site, in which that piece o' crap site 911myths linked in their site...look into it and tell me if you think they were manipulated in any way....

http://www.september11news.com/OsamaEvidence.htm

My strongest point would be the fact that sept 11 was staged as PSYOP (which I've already covered), the history of bush crime familia and the excess /obstructing of investigation/cover up which I've not gotten to yet. be prepared

Now you owe me a link as to what started the fire in wtc7 AND a short video clip of your osama tape. I'll crap in my pants if you do.

[delphi_ote]

Yep, the CTers love that because it doesn't show the plane hitting.
Look on the right side of the first picture, just above that little brown box. Look back and forth between the first and second pictures. You CAN see the tail of the plane in the first image.

[CptColumbo]

A picture of flaming wreckage falling off the WTC was posted earlier. I know you didn't miss it, because you misidentified it as "molten steel."

[Blackwell]

My strongest point would be the fact that sept 11 was staged as PSYOP (which I've already covered), the history of bush crime familia and the excess /obstructing of investigation/cover up which I've not gotten to yet. be prepared

Oh, we're on the edges of our seats, big guy.

[Pardalis]

I'm not sure how credible this source is yet, but it's interesting.

http://www.montalk.net/pentagon.html

Funny how two conspiracy theories battle eatchother. One is saying nothing hit the pentagon, the other says that it's somthing that looked like a plane but wasn't. They can't make up their mind between themselves.

[Gravy]

Hey there it is...I'll try my best to answer...please believe, I wasn't ignoring your question. Just that I'm being bombarded with different questions that Im having hard times catching up.

The 1975 fire,on the 11th floor fire was burning intensely at 700 degrees census for three hour. The fire then subsequntly spread from 9th floor to the 19th floor (yes it did as the repport indicated it), although it was small, the firemen were able to control and subside it. Yet the trusses and the core did not fail despite the weight load of the upper 90 floors that it held up . On sept 11, the fire was not as intense as it was in 1975, could not have reached anywhere near the melting temp point of the steel. Because the plane was flying at a high speed as it flew through the building as if it was a pin, and the flames shot out of the building hence only causing local damages in the area of the impact. The damages made to the concrete slabs that were embedded in the trusses had to be at least minimal. The fire could have not affected the trusses whatsoever, because the fire was nowhere burning intensely. Fuel only evaporizes in in a short period of time. You saw that most of fuel bursted into flames during the impact, thus very little puddle of fuel on the floor in the area of the impactwere burning off. The burning of office supplies couldn't have been hot enough for the core columns to fail.
As I said, one thing at a time, tiger. Slow and easy. We provide backup for our claims. Please provide backup for the 10 claims you made in this paragraph.

[Regnad Kcin]

...Just that I'm being bombarded with different questions that Im having hard times catching up...For the seventh "times"...

What do you do for a living?

[WildCat]

Who are you, Rod Stewart?
OMG, you're dating Rod Stewart?!

[aggle-rithm]

The 1975 fire,on the 11th floor fire was burning intensely at 700 degrees census for three hour.


Can you provide a conversion formula for this "census" scale?

Now you owe me a link as to what started the fire in wtc7 AND a short video clip of your osama tape. I'll crap in my pants if you do.

Oh, like you weren't going to do that anyway! ;)

[delphi_ote]

Can you provide a conversion formula for this "census" scale?
According to my calculations, 13 caucasian female dentists living in Nebraska with an income between 75k-100k = 3 degrees Fahrenheit. Does that help?

[NobbyNobbs]

Hey there it is...I'll try my best to answer...please believe, I wasn't ignoring your question. Just that I'm being bombarded with different questions that Im having hard times catching up.

The 1975 fire,on the 11th floor fire was burning intensely at 700 degrees census for three hour. The fire then subsequntly spread from 9th floor to the 19th floor (yes it did as the repport indicated it), although it was small, the firemen were able to control and subside it. Yet the trusses and the core did not fail despite the weight load of the upper 90 floors that it held up . On sept 11, the fire was not as intense as it was in 1975, could not have reached anywhere near the melting temp point of the steel. Because the plane was flying at a high speed as it flew through the building as if it was a pin, and the flames shot out of the building hence only causing local damages in the area of the impact. The damages made to the concrete slabs that were embedded in the trusses had to be at least minimal. The fire could have not affected the trusses whatsoever, because the fire was nowhere burning intensely. Fuel only evaporizes in in a short period of time. You saw that most of fuel bursted into flames during the impact, thus very little puddle of fuel on the floor in the area of the impactwere burning off. The burning of office supplies couldn't have been hot enough for the core columns to fail.

And as for the still frames of the fake osama video came from this site, in which that piece o' crap site 911myths linked in their site...look into it and tell me if you think they were manipulated in any way....

http://www.september11news.com/OsamaEvidence.htm

My strongest point would be the fact that sept 11 was staged as PSYOP (which I've already covered), the history of bush crime familia and the excess /obstructing of investigation/cover up which I've not gotten to yet. be prepared

Now you owe me a link as to what started the fire in wtc7 AND a short video clip of your osama tape. I'll crap in my pants if you do.


Holy cow, Geggy, you did it! You convinced me! I see it all now....the government...the media...the thermite...Cinncinati...you finally got through to me! I believe! How could I have been so blind? The physics, the expert testimony, the eyewitnesses...they all mean nothing. I see it now. Thank you so much. I am forever in your debt for having opened my eyes to the vast conspiracy that surrounds me.

Hey, do you happen to know anything about alien abductions? Id love to shuck off those misconceptions as well....

[Euromutt]

Who are you, Rod Stewart?Van Morrison, you philistine!

[schplurg]

So "Geggy" is the latest Loose Change-er, eh? They are still perpetuating this thread by sending in uninformed drones that spout the same drivel over and over again.

They then take a screenshot of this forum and post it on their own, showing everyone how the JREF is captivated by the 60+ page Loose Change thread.

These guys aren't even putting up a good fight anymore. The Loosers must have a boot-camp where these drones are shown only the basic conspiracy theory "facts" before they are sent here to troll around a bit only to be shot down.

They are BBSB's...Bulletin Board Suicide Bombers.

[Belz...]

Since geggery has left the land of rational posting, I'll throw something out that I haven't seen addressed as of yet:
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/videos/fiveframes.html

Thoughts?

Oh look! Black smoke. It means the fire was oxygen-deprived !! :rolleyes:

[Belz...]

On sept 11, the fire was not as intense as it was in 1975, could not have reached anywhere near the melting temp point of the steel. Because the plane was flying at a high speed as it flew through the building as if it was a pin, and the flames shot out of the building hence only causing local damages in the area of the impact. The damages made to the concrete slabs that were embedded in the trusses had to be at least minimal. The fire could have not affected the trusses whatsoever, because the fire was nowhere burning intensely. Fuel only evaporizes in in a short period of time. You saw that most of fuel bursted into flames during the impact, thus very little puddle of fuel on the floor in the area of the impactwere burning off. The burning of office supplies couldn't have been hot enough for the core columns to fail.

So many claims and so little gray matter.

And as for the still frames of the fake osama video came from this site, in which that piece o' crap site 911myths linked in their site...look into it and tell me if you think they were manipulated in any way....

... denial.

[bob_kark]

Paragshenis...

Nano-nookular containing thermite...

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=nanotech&sc=&id=14105&pg=1

Ok, that link that you gave discusses "superthermites" to be used for:

underwater explosive devices, primers for igniting firearms, and as fuel propellants for rockets.
as well as

"cave-buster" bombs using nanoaluminum
On the last half of the last page, discusses nano nuclear bombs. They're two separate things though. There is no nano nuclear thermite weapon. Why would you need it? Superthermites are not a weapon, they're a catalyst to increase a chemical reaction. It would absolutely not increase the effectiveness of a nuclear weapon in any signifigant way.

Either way, thermite explosives, whether nano or not, would not leave pools of molten steel for several days. A nano nuclear bomb not only would not leave pools of molten steel for several days, it would also leave a radioactive fallout. Do you have another example of an explosive that leaves pools of molten steel for several days?

[geggy]

List of sept 11 activists debunking the no plane theory at pentagon...
http://www.oilempire.us/pentagon-truth.html

I think the real mystery of the attack on pentagon you all should talk about instead is the failure in communication between the faa and norad. It's odd that the pentagon was struck by AA77 45 minutes after the second wtc strike in nyc, 75 minutes after faa was notified that AA77 had been hijacked and no fighter jets were visible in the skies of DC to defend the hijacked plane.

Was it an incompetent failure or was the system designed to fail on that day?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0819/p12s05-altv.html

[c4ts]

Or is it the same old:
Conspiracy Theorist suggests evidence
Sceptics show evidence wrong or otherwise insufficient
Conspiracy Theorist suggests additional evidence more bizarre than the first
Which is also shown to be wrong.


Nope, he hasn't suggested anything additional that's more bizarre. He's still going on about his molten steel since the beginning. The Popular Mechanics and National Geographic media conpsiracy isn't any more bizarre than his original "molten steel means thermite!" logic, and he has yet to top it.

[aggle-rithm]

I think the real mystery of the attack on pentagon you all should talk about instead is the failure in communication between the faa and norad.


Perhaps we'll do that! In the meantime, I'm afraid you will be far to busy addressing all the unanswered questions in THIS thread.


It's odd that the pentagon was struck by AA77 45 minutes after the second wtc strike in nyc, 75 minutes after faa was notified that AA77 had been hijacked and no fighter jets were visible in the skies of DC to defend the hijacked plane.

Was it an incompetent failure or was the system designed to fail on that day?



And will Katherine, now that she knows she is carrying Greg's baby, propose to Paul before Tim awakes from his coma?

Tune in tomorrow! ;)

[aggle-rithm]

By the way, if the government DID design something to fail, there's a good chance it would fail to fail.

[juryjone]

The 1975 fire,on the 11th floor fire was burning intensely at 700 degrees census for three hour.

Source for that figure? I'm assuming you meant celsius, though I certainly have no proof of that.
The fire then subsequntly spread from 9th floor to the 19th floor (yes it did as the repport indicated it), although it was small, the firemen were able to control and subside it. Yet the trusses and the core did not fail despite the weight load of the upper 90 floors that it held up . On sept 11, the fire was not as intense as it was in 1975, could not have reached anywhere near the melting temp point of the steel.

Guess what? I'm going to ask for a source for that claim as well. And please, get it through your head that THE STEEL DID NOT HAVE TO GET TO THE MELTING POINT FOR THE STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY TO BE COMPROMISED!

The burning of office supplies couldn't have been hot enough for the core columns to fail.

Fascinating. Do tell, what was burning in the WTC back in 1975 that was NOT burning in 2001, that would have caused the temperatures to soar higher in the fire that was eventually controlled over the one that was not?

Dang, I wish I could get answers to these questions - they're sure to be worth their weight in gold. However, we know g only occasionally answers questions posed to him.

By the way, geggy, you may have missed the question - what do you do for a living?

[c4ts]

So "Geggy" is the latest Loose Change-er, eh? They are still perpetuating this thread by sending in uninformed drones that spout the same drivel over and over again.

They then take a screenshot of this forum and post it on their own, showing everyone how the JREF is captivated by the 60+ page Loose Change thread.

These guys aren't even putting up a good fight anymore. The Loosers must have a boot-camp where these drones are shown only the basic conspiracy theory "facts" before they are sent here to troll around a bit only to be shot down.

They are BBSB's...Bulletin Board Suicide Bombers.

I fail to see how the Geggmeister is any different from the other trolls we've seen on this board- except the Elementalist, he was completely stoned all the time- but the rest are the same. Repetitive and unable to learn or adapt, they find one thing to latch onto and it has to be something illogical and EVERYTHING has to depend on it. Franko had his TLOP Goddess, Muscleman had his threats, Jedi Knight had his stealth atheists everywhere, Lucianarchy had annoying drama, 1inChrist had the Hellfire! and "I win the debate!" and so on.

[NobbyNobbs]

By the way, if the government DID design something to fail, there's a good chance it would fail to fail.

<hijack> I seem to remember a story about Wolfgang Paul (of the Pauli exclusion principle) that nothing ever worked right around him. Rumor is that as a joke, some colleagues rigged a bunch of glassware (like in the mad scientists lab) to collapse the moment he walked in the room, as a joke about things falling apart around him. He came in, the jokester pulled the string....and nothing happened.

Has anyone else heard this story? Is there truth to it? </hijack>

[aggle-rithm]

I fail to see how the Geggmeister is any different from the other trolls we've seen on this board- except the Elementalist, he was completely stoned all the time- but the rest are the same. Repetitive and unable to learn or adapt, they find one thing to latch onto and it has to be something illogical and EVERYTHING has to depend on it. Franko had his TLOP Goddess, Muscleman had his threats, Jedi Knight had his stealth atheists everywhere, Lucianarchy had annoying drama, 1inChrist had the Hellfire! and "I win the debate!" and so on.

Except that geggy has multiple things to latch onto, and he will leap from one to the other like a monkey when he gets cornered.

Witness his recent shift to the Pentagon after failing to answer questions about the WTC.

[aggle-rithm]

<hijack> I seem to remember a story about Wolfgang Paul (of the Pauli exclusion principle) that nothing ever worked right around him. Rumor is that as a joke, some colleagues rigged a bunch of glassware (like in the mad scientists lab) to collapse the moment he walked in the room, as a joke about things falling apart around him. He came in, the jokester pulled the string....and nothing happened.

Has anyone else heard this story? Is there truth to it? </hijack>

Who cares? It's a great story! :)

[Belz...]

I think the real mystery of the attack on pentagon you all should talk about instead is the failure in communication between the faa and norad. It's odd that the pentagon was struck by AA77 45 minutes after the second wtc strike in nyc, 75 minutes after faa was notified that AA77 had been hijacked and no fighter jets were visible in the skies of DC to defend the hijacked plane.

You're not going to answer ANY more questions, will you ?

Was it an incompetent failure or was the system designed to fail on that day?

False dichotomy. It could very well be that they simply couldn't intervene in time.

[geggy]

As I said, one thing at a time, tiger. Slow and easy. We provide backup for our claims. Please provide backup for the 10 claims you made in this paragraph.

It was pretty clear that we all saw the plane crashed into the corner side of the south tower (2nd impact). I don't know wehether if the wings of the plane were ripped apart as it crashed into the tower before reaching to the column cores. EVen if the wings didnt rip apart, it would have only cut through a maxiumum of 3 core columns, leaving other numbers of column cores intacted. There were no signs of any unbuckling of the trusses and the frames, otherwise the cracks in the concrete would be clearly visible outside the building. During the impact, most of the fuel bursted into flames outward of the building, whatever left of it most likely would have dripped out of the impact holes, never mind dripping into the elevator shaft or the tubes of the core columns. So what exactly caused the column cores to fail? Was it deliberately failed by the explosive devices that may have been preplanted before the attacks?

Bobkark, I was only demostrating that its possible to create a nuclear bomb as small as it would fit in a briefcase so it doesnt sound so farfetched if some kind of a nuclear bomb could have been planted in the basement to blast the lower column core of the towers.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

List of sept 11 activists debunking the no plane theory at pentagon...
http://www.oilempire.us/pentagon-truth.html

I think the real mystery of the attack on pentagon you all should talk about instead is the failure in communication between the faa and norad. It's odd that the pentagon was struck by AA77 45 minutes after the second wtc strike in nyc, 75 minutes after faa was notified that AA77 had been hijacked and no fighter jets were visible in the skies of DC to defend the hijacked plane.

Was it an incompetent failure or was the system designed to fail on that day?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0819/p12s05-altv.html

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor

[brodski]

Bobkark, I was only demostrating that its possible to create a nuclear bomb as small as it would fit in a briefcase so it doesnt sound so farfetched if some kind of a nuclear bomb could have been planted in the basement to blast the lower column core of the towers.
Apart from the fact that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that nuclear weapons where used against the WTC, Don’t you think that there would be reports of the effects of radiation on the survivors, and the thousands of workers who came into contact with the site?

[Hellbound]

Bobkark, I was only demostrating that its possible to create a nuclear bomb as small as it would fit in a briefcase so it doesnt sound so farfetched if some kind of a nuclear bomb could have been planted in the basement to blast the lower column core of the towers.

Except for the complete lack of any residual radiation, radioactive material, or EMP pulse that would be associated with a nuclear blast.

ETA: Dammit, brodski, stop reading my mind! You haven't properly filled out forms 185-B-revC, pages 1 through 243, Request for Inspection of Mental States and Thoughts of Globalist Operative, Secretive/Immediate.

[DavidJames]

As I said, one thing at a time, tiger. Slow and easy. We provide backup for our claims. Please provide backup for the 10 claims you made in this paragraph.I think geggy misunderstood your request for backup. While I believe you meant something like supporting evidence, he thought you meant simply restate it using some different words :D

[NobbyNobbs]

. EVen if the wings didnt rip apart, it would have only cut through a maxiumum of 3 core columns, leaving other numbers of column cores intacted.

I seem to remember an earlier post where someone overlaid a silhouette of an airliner over the imprint of the WTC. It seemed to fill much of the interior...probabbly more than 3 columns worth.

There were no signs of any unbuckling of the trusses and the frames, otherwise the cracks in the concrete would be clearly visible outside the building.

How do you know cracks would have been visible? Are you a structural engineer? Plus, wouldn't these cracks have been 70-some stories up? What are the chances of seeing them from ground level?

During the impact, most of the fuel bursted into flames outward of the building, whatever left of it most likely would have dripped out of the impact holes, never mind dripping into the elevator shaft or the tubes of the core columns.

How do you know this? Did anyone measure how much fuel exploded outside the building? Simply eyeballing it won't do, especially if you are not an expert on such things.

So what exactly caused the column cores to fail? Was it deliberately failed by the explosive devices that may have been preplanted before the attacks?

I don't know the name of the actual logical fallacy you have here, but you are making a presupposition that explosives actually existed.

Bobkark, I was only demostrating that its possible to create a nuclear bomb as small as it would fit in a briefcase so it doesnt sound so farfetched if some kind of a nuclear bomb could have been planted in the basement to blast the lower column core of the towers.

True, I think, that a nuclear bomb could fit in a briefcase. False, that a nuclear blast was used in the WTC. If so, there would still be residual radiation to this day. Any high school student with a Geiger counter could debunk this one.

(How am I doing, guys?)

[Hellbound]

True, I think, that a nuclear bomb could fit in a briefcase. False, that a nuclear blast was used in the WTC. If so, there would still be residual radiation to this day. Any high school student with a Geiger counter could debunk this one.

(How am I doing, guys?)

To be fair, tactical nukes (the small ones such as could be used in artillery shells, small bombs, and briefcase nukes) do leave residual radiation, but not at high levels or for long periods. I can't give actual numbers on this...I would suspect some residual radiation but I don't think it would be distinguishable from background at this point. There should have been evidence of some of the decay products in the rubble, though, and radiation immediately after the event (a few weeks to a few months) would have been measurable (although damaging dosages probably would have been limited to the immediate blast and shortly thereafter.

All of this is from memory, though. I'll see if I can verify my "educated wild-a$$ guesses" and post some links :)

[Pardalis]

List of sept 11 activists debunking the no plane theory at pentagon...
http://www.oilempire.us/pentagon-truth.html

Don't you think, genius, that if you agree that these people were fooled in believing there was no plane hitting the pentagon, then if you apply the same logic, maybe you were ALL fooled in beliving in ALL of your other theories????

I think the real mystery of the attack on pentagon you all should talk about instead is the failure in communication between the faa and norad.


THAT IS THE OFFICIAL STORY!

[cloudshipsrule]

Bobkark, I was only demostrating that its possible to create a nuclear bomb as small as it would fit in a briefcase so it doesnt sound so farfetched if some kind of a nuclear bomb could have been planted in the basement to blast the lower column core of the towers.

Why can you not get this?? If the 'lower column core' of the towers was weakend by explosives, thermite or an imaginary briefcase-sized nuclear bomb why in hell didn't the entire building start to collapse when tens of thousands of tons of upper floors began crashing down on the floors below them? This is just STUPID. The bottom floor didn't collapse until the entire rest of the building happened to land on it.

And if "tons of thermite" had been planted on floor 81, who planted it without any one of the tens of thousands of workers who worked in EACH building day and night not becoming suspicious?

"Never mind that cord that looks like something used to detonate tons of thermite mam, that's just the new CAT-7 cables for your new extra-high-speed internet connection. You people are lucky in this building, mam! It hasn't even been 3 weeks ago that Al Gore invented this CAT-7 cable, and you're the first to get it!"

All we need is a younger Bruce Willis, Samuel L. Jackson, and a subplot love story with the lovely Scarlett Johansson and we have the makings of Die Hard IV. I'd pay to see it!

[Pardalis]

I'm sorry but I really don't see why there is a debate over some building fire 30 years ago. This building, or whatever other building fire you have linked to, DIDN'T HAVE TWO 100 STORIES TOWERS CRUMBLE RIGHT NEXT TO THEM. YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN'T COMPARE!!!

Can't you see how crazy you are getting??? Now you're talking about nuclear bombs in the WTC, you're accusing Bush of nazism, you deny having been wrong in your own field of expertise (or admit that shrinker's hypothesis is very, very interesting).

Calisse, geggy get a life!

[Gravy]

Do tell, what was burning in the WTC back in 1975 that was NOT burning in 2001
Hair.

[brodski]

10 points to the first person who can find an example of a CTer claiming that people in New York who have developed mesothelioma as a result of breathing in pulverised asbestos on 9/11, actually have cancers related to radiation from a nano-nuke. Its only a matter of time…

[Pardalis]

Of course now geggy is going to explain to you that NUCLEAR explosions weakened the steel columns therefore the towers could collapse.

How am I doing geggy, am I a good conspiracist?


BTW geggy, I posted this back in post #2258. You are soooo predictable!!!

[juryjone]

Hair.

Thanks, that explains that. :rolleyes:

[bob_kark]

Bobkark, I was only demostrating that its possible to create a nuclear bomb as small as it would fit in a briefcase so it doesnt sound so farfetched if some kind of a nuclear bomb could have been planted in the basement to blast the lower column core of the towers.

Had a nuclear device been used, we would be able to detect radiation from the fallout. No radiation consistent with the detonation of a nuclear device has been found on the site, therefore, it is a farfetched claim. In addition, it still does not explain why there would be pools of molten steel found days after the collapse of the towers. So, I have to ask you again, what explosives could cause this to occur?

[Pardalis]

So what exactly caused the column cores to fail? Was it deliberately failed by the explosive devices that may have been preplanted before the attacks?

Again, genius, as Regnad Kcin repeatedly told you: QUESTIONS ARE NOT EVIDENCE!

Bobkark, I was only demostrating that its possible to create a nuclear bomb as small as it would fit in a briefcase so it doesnt sound so farfetched if some kind of a nuclear bomb could have been planted in the basement to blast the lower column core of the towers.

What is far fetched is the WHOLE IDEA of the preplanted explosives.

[Pardalis]

http://www.montalk.net/pentagon.html

I still can't believe that site. This is supreme idiocy. They debunked one of their own theory, only to replace it with a far more impossible theory. They are so obsessed with their paranoid view of the world that when they actually do a have a moment of lucidity, the paranoia kicks in imediately with even more power. Wow. This is beyond stupid.

[chipmunk stew]

EVen if the wings didnt rip apart, it would have only cut through a maxiumum of 3 core columns, leaving other numbers of column cores intacted.
This would be true if it weren't completely wrong:
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-6ExecutiveSummary.pdf
Start on page 16.

There were no signs of any unbuckling of the trusses and the frames, otherwise the cracks in the concrete would be clearly visible outside the building.
For once you're right...sort of.
There were no signs of unbuckling.
But there were clear signs of buckling:
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-6ExecutiveSummary.pdf
Start on page 20.

[Pardalis]

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-6ExecutiveSummary.pdf

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-6ExecutiveSummary.pdf


I'm afraid you're shooting blanks Chipmunk. Anything that's ".gov" geggy is going to ignore.

(they wouldn't be blanks with any sane person BTW, don't get me wrong...;) )

[Pardalis]

Bobkark, I was only demostrating that its possible to create a nuclear bomb as small as it would fit in a briefcase so it doesnt sound so farfetched if some kind of a nuclear bomb could have been planted in the basement to blast the lower column core of the towers.

Man, geggy is an endless source of BS. If what you are saying is not far fetched, geggy, then why would it be far fetched that flight school students could fly planes into the WTC? By "fly" I meant just that, not taking off or landing, just "flying". What is your basis on wich to judge if something is far fetched or not? It seems very loose, yet sometimes extremely tight... Much like your mouth when it is talking.

[CptColumbo]

BTW I e-mailed Ben Chertoff at Popular Mechanics to get confirmation on something written about earlier.

HE IS NOT RELATED TO MICHAEL CHERTOFF (Secretary of Homeland Security)!

He wrote:
"Not cousins, brothers, father, or son."

This a very common myth supported by the CT crowd, and a major debunking point for the PM article. I was willing to believe they might be related (even though it really didn't effect the facts of the article), but still wanted to hear it from a better source.

You might want to pass that along to your pals, geggy.

[Pardalis]

HE IS NOT RELATED TO MICHAEL CHERTOFF (Secretary of Homeland Security)!

Even if he had been, that absolutely doesn't mean anything. The same thing goes for the Bin Laden family, it's not because one has gone wacko that the entire family is. If someone in my family was a criminal, would it make me a criminal?

[Manny]

BTW I e-mailed Ben Chertoff at Popular Mechanics to get confirmation on something written about earlier.

HE IS NOT RELATED TO MICHAEL CHERTOFF (Secretary of Homeland Security)!Jumping Yeshua bar Yusuf on a pogo stick! It didn't even occur to me that they'd get something that basic wrong. Once again my low expectations were not low enough.

They claim these events happened on September 11, 2001; maybe we should double-check that!

[Belz...]

Geggy, please pay attention to this post. You haven't replied much to my points in this thread.

EVen if the wings didnt rip apart, it would have only cut through a maxiumum of 3 core columns,

Can you provide us with your reasoning, leading you to this conclusion (3 columns, max) ?

During the impact, most of the fuel bursted into flames outward of the building, whatever left of it most likely would have dripped out of the impact holes, never mind dripping into the elevator shaft or the tubes of the core columns.

If the towers had been made entirely of steel and concrete, I'd agree. Don't forget the inflammable stuff INSIDE the buildings, however. We can argue until we're blue in the face about whether that was hot enough to weaken the structure, but the fact remains that your contention above is false.

So what exactly caused the column cores to fail? Was it deliberately failed by the explosive devices that may have been preplanted before the attacks?

Those would be excellent questions if not for two points. Firstly, the fact that you assume your conclusion and ignore evidence to the contrary. As stated above, your claim that no more than 3 columns could have been damaged by the crash is unexplained, and you omit important data in your analysis of the fire's effect.

Secondly, at one point one has to consider motive: if they were going to use explosives to bring down the towers, then why did they crash airplanes into it ? Doesn't that complexify their efforts, considerably ? And if they only used explosives, why would they place demolition charges ? Wouldn't a single bomb do the trick ? They could detonate the bomb and blame a terrorist attack similar to the previous one.

I'd like you to answer that last one.

Bobkark, I was only demostrating that its possible to create a nuclear bomb as small as it would fit in a briefcase so it doesnt sound so farfetched if some kind of a nuclear bomb could have been planted in the basement to blast the lower column core of the towers.

Yes it does. 43 brought up the very important point of radioactive fallout, which you can't avoid with a nuke. Also, nukes tend to result in quite a loud bang, not to mention a heat spike of considerable proportion. How do you explain the complete absence of anything remotely identifiable as nuclear-related ?

ETA: Spelling.

[Belz...]

To be fair, tactical nukes (the small ones such as could be used in artillery shells, small bombs, and briefcase nukes) do leave residual radiation, but not at high levels or for long periods. I can't give actual numbers on this...I would suspect some residual radiation but I don't think it would be distinguishable from background at this point. There should have been evidence of some of the decay products in the rubble, though, and radiation immediately after the event (a few weeks to a few months) would have been measurable (although damaging dosages probably would have been limited to the immediate blast and shortly thereafter.

All of this is from memory, though. I'll see if I can verify my "educated wild-a$$ guesses" and post some links :)

Do you know what yield a "brief-case" nuke could have ?

[Manny]

During the impact, most of the fuel bursted into flames outward of the building...Since even the Michael Chertoff thing turned out to be BS, let's see a cite for this. I agree that some amount of fuel exited the buildings and created large fireballs. I don't know how much fuel is required to create fireballs of the sizes observed. How much, geggy. Half the fuel? All of it? 10%? 74.375%? How much?

[Belz...]

Calisse, geggy get a life!

To be fair, Pardalis, I do believe rule 8 applies to all languages.

[Pardalis]

Secondly, at one point one has to consider motive: if they were going to use explosives to bring down the towers, then why did they crash airplanes into it ? Doesn't that complexify their efforts, considerably ? And if they only used explosives, why would they place demolition charges ? Wouldn't a single bomb do the trick ? They could detonate the bomb and blame a terrorist attack similar to the previous one.

Man, this is as good as this one:

Wow. I mean, those conspirators truly are monstrously stupid. I mean, If I wanted to destroy a building and blame terrorists, I wouldn't do it in a way that seems CONTROLLED.

To be fair, Pardalis, I do believe rule 8 applies to all languages.

You caught me there, sorry!:o :o

[pgwenthold]

Jumping Yeshua bar Yusuf on a pogo stick! It didn't even occur to me that they'd get something that basic wrong. Once again my low expectations were not low enough.

They claim these events happened on September 11, 2001; maybe we should double-check that!

I've said it before, given their track record, I'm not sure I would trust these guys if they told me it was raining, even if I were standing outside in the rain getting soaking wet.

[Hellbound]

Belz:

Last I read (which is a few years out of date, but shouldn't be off by much) a briefcase nuke would yeild about 1 Kiloton. This was based on some plans for some that we extracted from another nation's intelligence forces.

They wouldn't be that large of an explosion. If buried 6 levels down, the blast and flash could be contained, and fallout would be minimal to non-existent (it wouldn't throw it up far enough or fast enough). There would, however, be unusual isotopes from radioactive decay in the area of the blast, as well as the EMP pulse (which I'm not sure of the size on with a small warhead, possibly it might not be detectable at range either...although I would expect to see some effects, at least in the are around the towers).

[c4ts]

Except that geggy has multiple things to latch onto, and he will leap from one to the other like a monkey when he gets cornered.

Witness his recent shift to the Pentagon after failing to answer questions about the WTC.
Ask him if there was molten steel at the Pentagon, too.

[Hellbound]

Ask him if there was molten steel at the Pentagon, too.

I thought the Pentagon was "vaporized titanium" :D

[c4ts]

It was obviously a nuclear fiber nanobomb.

[money]

Van Morrison, you philistine!

Wow... did not know that...

I figured Stewart had totally copied REO Speedwagon.

[geggy]

Chertoff relations is bs or not...popular mechanics is still affiliated with the us government. DO you ever read their magazines? They'd usually cover and review fighter jets and weaponry machines. I'd like the full format of the email so i can show other "loosers". Before I reply to Belz i want to point out something relating to what we're talkin about...

This photograph was included in the FEMA report explaining the pancake theory and the problem is it does not explain how the column core failed...
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/tdocs/fig_2_20.gif

Secondly, NIST reported that 11 columns core were severely damaged in the south tower while only 6 columns core were severed in the north tower. That is impossible because the plane flew right directly toward the center of the north tower. The north tower columns core at the impact hole were only half thick of the columns core in the imapct hole of the south tower. The NIST also manipulated and downsized the columns core in their desperated attempt to make pancaking theory sound more plausible.

If the towers had been made entirely of steel and concrete, I'd agree. Don't forget the inflammable stuff INSIDE the buildings, however. We can argue until we're blue in the face about whether that was hot enough to weaken the structure, but the fact remains that your contention above is false.

True. I already did mentioned the fact office supplies and materials were on fire but by judging the size of the "inferno" and the color of the smoke billowing the towers, the heat was not as severe as the 1975 fire which came to 700 degrees c and was more intense.

From my point of view, sept 11 was staged as PSYOP to maximize shock and to juice up the adrenaline/emotional meter to a full scale. I thought the attack in NYC itself was very hollywood style, except for the fact it was real. The building implosion was also to maximize Silverstein's profit. But that is only from my point of view as i believe the buildings were deliberately imploded.

[Pardalis]

But that is only from my point of view as i believe the buildings were deliberately imploded.

Exactly. And you're dillusional so there goes your theory...

[DavidJames]

From my point of view, sept 11 was staged as PSYOP to maximize shock and to juice up the adrenaline/emotional meter to a full scale. I thought the attack in NYC itself was very hollywood style, except for the fact it was real. The building implosion was also to maximize Silverstein's profit. But that is only from my point of view as i believe the buildings were deliberately imploded.This is a serious question and I would like to you to think hard and answer it honestly.

Considering you have failed to provide any evidence for your theory, none what so ever, why should anyone take you seriously?

[juryjone]

The north tower columns core at the impact hole were only half thick of the columns core in the imapct hole of the south tower. The NIST also manipulated and downsized the columns core in their desperated attempt to make pancaking theory sound more plausible.

Is English your native language? I've got to say, I'm not able to make much sense out of what you're saying.


True. I already did mentioned the fact office supplies and materials were on fire but by judging the size of the "inferno" and the color of the smoke billowing the towers, the heat was not as severe as the 1975 fire which came to 700 degrees c and was more intense.


So I'll ask once again - what was burning at such a high temp in 1975 that did not in 2001?

[chipmunk stew]

BTW I e-mailed Ben Chertoff at Popular Mechanics to get confirmation on something written about earlier.

HE IS NOT RELATED TO MICHAEL CHERTOFF (Secretary of Homeland Security)!

He wrote:
"Not cousins, brothers, father, or son."

This a very common myth supported by the CT crowd, and a major debunking point for the PM article. I was willing to believe they might be related (even though it really didn't effect the facts of the article), but still wanted to hear it from a better source.

You might want to pass that along to your pals, geggy.Oh my god, are you serious? That was one deception I hadn't even considered, since his being Michael's cousin seemed so irrelevant. The depths to which they'll stoop...