Loose Change

[bob_kark]

(My response to CT email)

Good Gravy, Gravy! That was quite an email! Excellent job!

[Mercutio]

Wow, Gravy...just...wow.

You rock.

[kookbreaker]

Interesting that one finally wrote to you with an attempt, but again we see the same game. The same laughable sources, the same not paying attention.

Great work Gravy.

[Gravy]

I'll confess that I've been dying for a CT to bring up the "50-ton hydraulic press" issue. It was in Loose Change part 1 but not in 2.

I said I would have my critique of 911truh.org's literature done today, but I spent too much time on that email, so I'll finish it tomorrow. There's nothing new in it, but it's truly amszing how much b.s. they fit into a single pamphlet.

[Regnad Kcin]

A salute for Gravy!

[chipmunk stew]

I have to wonder what the repurcussions would be if some more, interesting people, became aware of LC and their ilk. Namely people like R. Lee Ermy, Ted Nugent, etc

It would also be great to see Shermer do a debunk in the same way as he approached the holocause deniers.Has anyone thought yet to email Randi and Shermer Gravy's LC debunk?

Also, on the Huffington Post blog (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-pollock/every-american-should-see_b_20722.html), truthcommission wrote: "To all of the haters out there..Dispute this, line by line, and we will all shutup.
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html (http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html)"

From what I've read of it so far, Griffin doesn't do any of his own analysis. He's a pretty persuasive essayist--that's about it. His citations are mostly the same ones we've been beating up on this thread.

Since I've seen Griffin being touted more and more by the saner CTs as one of the more respectable flag-bearers of the Truth Movement, I think it might be worthwhile to take truthcommission up on his challenge.

[dubfan]

Also, on the Huffington Post blog (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-pollock/every-american-should-see_b_20722.html), truthcommission wrote: "To all of the haters out there..Dispute this, line by line, and we will all shutup.
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html (http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html)"


I just read the comments at the HuffPo.

Good God.

These people are like the Flood in Halo. You shoot one of them with your fact-rifle and 15 more pop right out.

[dubfan]

A salute for Gravy!

Here, here.

[Gravy]

Has anyone thought yet to email Randi and Shermer Gravy's LC debunk?

Also, on the Huffington Post blog (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-pollock/every-american-should-see_b_20722.html), truthcommission wrote: "To all of the haters out there..Dispute this, line by line, and we will all shutup.
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html (http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html)"

From what I've read of it so far, Griffin doesn't do any of his own analysis. He's a pretty persuasive essayist--that's about it. His citations are mostly the same ones we've been beating up on this thread.

Since I've seen Griffin being touted more and more by the saner CTs as one of the more respectable flag-bearers of the Truth Movement, I think it might be worthwhile to take truthcommission up on his challenge.

Griffin has a distinct advantage over many CTs in that he writes grammatically correct sentences. Most of the 911truth.org b.s. is based on his work, and it's easily debunked. He never met a straw man he didn't like. He has a list of "115 omissions, distortions or outright lies" in the 9/11 Commission Report. "The New Pearl Harbor" is based on those items.

As an experiment I had a friend pick 4 numbers from 1 to 115 at random, and I pulled those criticisms from Griffin's list and demolished them. Looking at that whole list, though, there are some items that would take longer to debunk, and he may be right about others. But I could make a list of thousands of things the 9/11 Commission didn't address, such as the fact that I tripped on my shoelaces on 9/11.

You're right about him not doing original research, but neither do we. Much of what he does is take factual information, such as lousy communication and lots of confusion between the FAA and NORAD, and say, "Aha! Proof of conspiracy!" But I haven't seen any new evidence that he's brought to light.

Here are the first 20 items on his list. If you didn't know the facts, you'd find many of these things to be suspicious.

1. The omission of evidence that at least six of the alleged hijackers — including Waleed al-Shehri, said by the Commission probably to have stabbed a flight attendant on Flight 11 before it crashed into the North Tower of the WTC — are still alive (19-20).

2. The omission of evidence about Mohamed Atta — such as his reported fondness for alcohol, pork, and lap dances — that is in tension with the Commission's claim that he had become fanatically religious (20-21).

3. The obfuscation of the evidence that Hani Hanjour was too poor a pilot to have flown an airliner into the Pentagon (21-22).

4. The omission of the fact that the publicly released flight manifests contain no Arab names (23).

5. The omission of the fact that fire has never, before or after 9/11, caused steel-frame buildings to collapse (25).

6. The omission of the fact that the fires in the Twin Towers were not very big, very hot, or very long-lasting compared with fires in several steel-frame buildings that did not collapse (25-26).

7. The omission of the fact that, given the hypothesis that the collapses were caused by fire, the South Tower, which was struck later than the North Tower and also had smaller fires, should not have collapsed first (26).

8. The omission of the fact that WTC 7 (which was not hit by an airplane and which had only small, localized fires) also collapsed — an occurrence that FEMA admitted it could not explain (26).

9. The omission of the fact that the collapse of the Twin Towers (like that of Building 7) exemplified at least 10 features suggestive of controlled demolition (26-27).

10. The claim that the core of each of the Twin Towers was "a hollow steel shaft" — a claim that denied the existence of the 47 massive steel columns that in reality constituted the core of each tower and that, given the "pancake theory" of the collapses, should have still been sticking up many hundreds of feet in the air (27-2.

11. The omission of Larry Silverstein's statement that he and the fire department commander decided to "pull" Building 7 (2.

12. The omission of the fact that the steel from the WTC buildings was quickly removed from the crime scene and shipped overseas before it could be analyzed for evidence of explosives (30).

13. The omission of the fact that because Building 7 had been evacuated before it collapsed, the official reason for the rapid removal of the steel — that some people might still be alive in the rubble under the steel — made no sense in this case (30).

14. The omission of Mayor Giuliani's statement that he had received word that the World Trade Center was going to collapse (30-31).

15. The omission of the fact that President Bush's brother Marvin and his cousin Wirt Walker III were both principals in the company in charge of security for the WTC (31-32).

16. The omission of the fact that the west wing of the Pentagon would have been the least likely spot to be targeted by al-Qaeda terrorists, for several reasons (33-34).

17. The omission of any discussion of whether the damage done to the Pentagon was consistent with the impact of a Boeing 757 going several hundred miles per hour (34).

18. The omission of the fact that there are photos showing that the west wing's façade did not collapse until 30 minutes after the strike and also that the entrance hole appears too small for a Boeing 757 to have entered (34).

19. The omission of all testimony that has been used to cast doubt on whether remains of a Boeing 757 were visible either inside or outside the Pentagon (34-36).

20. The omission of any discussion of whether the Pentagon has a anti-missile defense system that would have brought down a commercial airliner — even though the Commission suggested that the al-Qaeda terrorists did not attack a nuclear power plant because they assumed that it would be thus defended (36).

Note that in the WTC section he talks a lot about fire but never mentions structural damage caused by the planes. That's classic Griffin. Another flagrant liar.


ETA: Oh, and I think that, in addition to being a Theologian, he's a professor of logic. Bwahahahahaha!

[geggy]

Bobkark...these quotes said by mark twain can be directly to either side, depending on how one would look at the event of sept 11. When I read these quote, I was thinking that it could be said directly to you.

Parelsis...no I have not dismissed the CD theory. I will explain using pictures with graphics, possibly on mon. And the coincidences I was speaking of applies to different situations leading up, during and the aftermath of sept 11. Like the coincidences in foreknowledge/security standdown, the coincidences of hijackers' whereabouts, the coincidences of the wtc collapsing, etc all mushed into one big huge "coincidences" or "conspiracy", whichever applies to you.

Gravy...I'm not clear on why I owe you an apology.

Do you realize the 19 hijackers trained right here in america? Even several of them had resided in Maryland during training. Two of the hijackers lived with couple of FBI agents in california. Several of them got their training in aviation school in florida, owned by a known criminal with no pilot experience. Few of the hijackers were involved with various terrorist activities prior to sept 11, so how were they allowed into america with VISA that should have been denied?

Do you think the NSA was spying prior to sept 11? Dick cheney has fought for legislation to spy on "terrorists" without warrent since 1975. Do you remember how bill clinton got caught having an affair with monica lewinsky? So it has been proven countless times the NSA had been spying prior to sept 11...why were there no action taken toward the hijackers?

[Polaris]

I disagree. I do find it strange a government would kill thousands of it's own people, indiscriminately of their gender, race or religion. I think the Al Qaeda responsability to be a valid theory, because of Al Qaeda's history of behaviour, it's known hatred of anything american, it's indiscriminate acts of pure violence. 9/11 seems to be following exactly that pattern of behaviour. if it indeed was the the governement's doing, it would be unprecedented in history.

I'm going to throw this out there to be devil's advocate (my apologies if somoene else already mentioned this - I only got to the quoted post in my reading of the thread).

The Coventry bombing by the Luftwaffe was allowed to happen by Churchill and Bomber Command. It was allowed to happen because it was believed that opposing the raid would give away the existence of the broken Enigma encryption to the Nazis. So it's not unprecedented - however, circumstances were certainly much different.

[Gravy]

Gravy...I'm not clear on why I owe you an apology.

I already told you: for calling me a liar. Prove it or apologize.

[Gravy]

Do you realize the 19 hijackers trained right here in america?

GET OUT!!!???

Jeez, I've gotta go rethink this whole 9/11 thing. Everybody, please disregard my previous 500 posts.

[Gravy]

Do you remember how bill clinton got caught having an affair with monica lewinsky?

NSA spymaster Linda Tripp.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/879044667af10d1ef.jpg

[WildCat]

Do you realize the 19 hijackers trained right here in america? Even several of them had resided in Maryland during training. Two of the hijackers lived with couple of FBI agents in california. Several of them got their training in aviation school in florida, owned by a known criminal with no pilot experience. Few of the hijackers were involved with various terrorist activities prior to sept 11, so how were they allowed into america with VISA that should have been denied?
So, we agree that there were 19 hijackers, and not remote control planes, pods, missiles, an A-3, etc?

Do you think the NSA was spying prior to sept 11? Dick cheney has fought for legislation to spy on "terrorists" without warrent since 1975.
There never was and isn't now a need for a warrant to spy on enemy agents.

Do you remember how bill clinton got caught having an affair with monica lewinsky? So it has been proven countless times the NSA had been spying prior to sept 11...why were there no action taken toward the hijackers?
I have no idea what Bill and Monica have to do w/ this.

Incompetence pretty much covers your last statement, as well as the fact that the NSA and CIA was forbidden by law prior to 9/11 to share info w/ the FBI and other law enforcement agencies.

[Gravy]

I'm going to throw this out there to be devil's advocate (my apologies if somoene else already mentioned this - I only got to the quoted post in my reading of the thread).

The Coventry bombing by the Luftwaffe was allowed to happen by Churchill and Bomber Command. It was allowed to happen because it was believed that opposing the raid would give away the existence of the broken Enigma encryption to the Nazis. So it's not unprecedented - however, circumstances were certainly much different.
Yes, there are several examples where similar tragedies were allowed to occur in wartime, to avoid revealing intelligence-gathering methods. I can't think of others offhand, but the book "The Code Breakers" lists 'em.

[Polaris]

Xraye, I've gotta say I'm disappointed. You said you were going to read through the entire thread, making notes of what has been covered and where you still felt the CT "evidence" had not been addressed. I recommended that you choose a particular subject and stick with it, discuss it in detail, so that we might have a meaningful discussion. So what did you come up with?

The Reichstag fire. "History repeats itself".

Why would you begin your arguments there? With speculation and conjecture? Is it because you have no facts to argue?

C'mon, surely you can do better that that. geggy can't, but I expected more of you.

Not to mention, the Reichstag fire happened in 1933. It was a (non-lethal) faked attack by communist terrorists so that Hitler could circumvent the democratic institutions of the Weimar. The invasion of Poland didn't occur until September of 1939, 6 years later. And then, another fake attack (one where Polish destruction of bridges was faked to justify the invasion by an armored Nazi force that just happened to be amassed at the border) was committed to justify annexation of Poland (well, the half that Uncle Joe didn't get). The analogy doesn't quite fit. The Reichstag fire wasn't an excuse by Hitler to justify war. It was to justify giving himself totalitarian powers. Bush did no such thing after 9/11, no matter how you spin the Patriot Act.

[kookbreaker]

I'm going to throw this out there to be devil's advocate (my apologies if somoene else already mentioned this - I only got to the quoted post in my reading of the thread).

The Coventry bombing by the Luftwaffe was allowed to happen by Churchill and Bomber Command. It was allowed to happen because it was believed that opposing the raid would give away the existence of the broken Enigma encryption to the Nazis. So it's not unprecedented - however, circumstances were certainly much different.

No. No. No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Coventry


A common myth surrounding the bombing is that Coventry was deliberately sacrificed in order to prevent the Germans knowing that Enigma cipher machine messages were being read by British codebreakers. This has been proven untrue — Winston Churchill was aware that a heavy raid was to take place, but it was not known where, and was expected to be in London.

[Polaris]

Fair 'nough :)



And just because tribunals have been misused does not mean they are inheritly immoral or biased.



The lack of appeal does disturb me, it provides little chance for error correction. There is a sort of appeals process, however, in that the decision can be reviewed by the Secretary of Defense. Still not optimal, though.



I disagree with this statement. I suspect the standards would be similar to what exist in traditional courts. The standards state only "Evidence that would have probative value to a reasonable person"; you adde dyour own interpretation to that to include heresay.

I do not know if it would include heresay or not, and you haven't shwon that it does, so this supports neither side of the argument until further information is gathered. Considering attorneys are posted for each side (the defendent can select their own or hire their own, as well), I would suspect it follows traditional court rules.



Then it becomes a difference of opinion.

The tribunal system is very similar to the military justice system that has been in place for the U.S. Military for years. That system is, within reasonable expectation, fair. There is the difference that the military justice system provides avenue for appeal (although limited), however.

So, while I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing, it's not immediate evidence of evil, either. Most people tend to mentally flip when they hear the word "tribunal", because of the negative connotations of the word, but a tribunal is just a specific type of judging body. How it's actually implemented is the measure of whether or not it is "fair".

I think most people cringe when hearing "tribunals" because it brings up images of Paths of Glory, or when shell-shocked soldiers were shot for cowardice by kangaroo courts in WW1.

[chipmunk stew]

Do you realize the 19 hijackers trained right here in america?:eek: OMG! Here in America?!? Are you serious?!? geggy, you're blowing my mind!!!111!1!!!!111!!1111!!!!!!!111!!1!!!

[Polaris]

That quote sounds like what exactly had happened to the israelis hunting for the culprits of the kidnappings of the israeli atheltes during the 1972 olympics. Interestingly, the kidnappings by the arabs happened on the date of sept 11...Have you ever read the book "vengeance" by george jonas? I'd highly recommend it. I have not yet seen the film, "Munich", though, which was based on the book.

I think this quote by mark twain is better suited for thequest, whom may have been fooled by the sept 11, 2001 attacks like many of us....

"whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority its time to pause and refleck..."

And the 1857 massacre of pioneer settlers, and the 1941 bombing of Buckingham Palace by the Luftwaffe were also on September 11!!!! :eek: AAAAAAAAAAAH!!! RUN!!!! SAVE YOURSELVES!!!!! AAAAAAAAAH!!!!! STOP DROP AND ROLL!!!!!

[kookbreaker]

And the 1857 massacre of pioneer settlers, and the 1941 bombing of Buckingham Palace by the Luftwaffe were also on September 11!!!! :eek: AAAAAAAAAAAH!!! RUN!!!! SAVE YOURSELVES!!!!! AAAAAAAAAH!!!!! STOP DROP AND ROLL!!!!!

Seriously, is geggy reading of an old bottle of Dr. Brommer's soap or something? I expect him to just start posting 'Jellyfish! Dinosaurs!" and just be done with it.

[Polaris]

I have to wonder what the repurcussions would be if some more, interesting people, became aware of LC and their ilk. Namely people like R. Lee Ermy, Ted Nugent, etc

It would also be great to see Shermer do a debunk in the same way as he approached the holocause deniers.

The definition of surreal: Dylan Avery confronting G. Gordon Liddy and backing him into a corner as Buzz Aldrin was. I would pay money to see the result.

As for Shermer: He didn't do a debunking of it that I know of, but there was a review of The New Pearl Harbor, by Griffin, in Skeptic Magazine:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-01-23.html

[Polaris]

No. No. No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Coventry

Well, I guess someone ought to let John Keegan know. That's where I read it - his one volume history of World War Two, still in print.

Still, the only fact that was mistaken in the analogy was the specific city, so the analogy stands.

[Polaris]

And the 1857 massacre of pioneer settlers, and the 1941 bombing of Buckingham Palace by the Luftwaffe were also on September 11!!!! :eek: AAAAAAAAAAAH!!! RUN!!!! SAVE YOURSELVES!!!!! AAAAAAAAAH!!!!! STOP DROP AND ROLL!!!!!

And Steve Jones is a Mormon! The Church of Latter Day Nazionalsozielistische Partei Saints is trying to take over the US government and the world!!! DUCK AND COVER!!!!

[kookbreaker]

Well, I guess someone ought to let John Keegan know. That's where I read it - his one volume history of World War Two, still in print.


Keegan? Excuse me a moment.

**HAWWWWWWWWK PTOOOOOOO!!!***

Sorry, what were you saying?


Still, the only fact that was mistaken in the analogy was the specific city, so the analogy stands.

No, read it is again. Chruchhill knew a raid was coming, but not over which city. He could not have defended the target city any better than the usual English defenses could.

[Gravy]

I don't understand why you people are all hellbent on those activists who may well be cointelpros that advocates silly theories like the pod on planes, missile hit the pentagon, hologram, etc which may well be government propaganda in attempt to discredit the movement.
After you apologize, please name anyone on this forum who fits this description.

[Gravy]

And Steve Jones is a Mormon! The Church of Latter Day Nazionalsozielistische Partei Saints is trying to take over the US government and the world!!! DUCK AND COVER!!!!
So that's what Sword of Truth is doing here! Mods! Help! An intruder got past the screeners!

[steve s]

Interestingly, the kidnappings by the arabs happened on the date of sept 11...

Wrong as usual. It was Sept. 5th. You guys will do anything to make connections to Sept. 11th.

Steve S.

[Polaris]

Keegan? Excuse me a moment.

**HAWWWWWWWWK PTOOOOOOO!!!***

Sorry, what were you saying?



No, read it is again. Chruchhill knew a raid was coming, but not over which city. He could not have defended the target city any better than the usual English defenses could.

What's wrong with Keegan? I found his History of Warfare and Face of Battle to be exceptional.

[kookbreaker]

What's wrong with Keegan? I found his History of Warfare and Face of Battle to be exceptional.

History of Warfare promotes the 'Beuatiful People' myth. Keegan makes it seem as if primitive tribes all fight without violence.

Face of Battle? Parts are OK, but his take on Waterloo might just as well be yanked straight out of the Capt. Mercer diary.

Nohting the man has written has impressed me much. I usually only read him when there is not much alternative. (such as with is book on the Iraq war)

I did a little online checking, and it seems you may be wrong about Keegan's claims. I don't have the books in front of me, but others seem to indicate that Keegan's comments are against the idea of the 'Conventry sacrifice' myth.

[Polaris]

History of Warfare promotes the 'Beuatiful People' myth. Keegan makes it seem as if primitive tribes all fight without violence.

Face of Battle? Parts are OK, but his take on Waterloo might just as well be yanked straight out of the Capt. Mercer diary.

Nohting the man has written has impressed me much. I usually only read him when there is not much alternative. (such as with is book on the Iraq war)

I did a little online checking, and it seems you may be wrong about Keegan's claims. I don't have the books in front of me, but others seem to indicate that Keegan's comments are against the idea of the 'Conventry sacrifice' myth.

It's been a while since I read The Second World War, but that was the impression I got. I dont have it in front of me (checked it out from the library - well before my compulsive book-buying days).

I've never been a Napoleonic War buff - I can't think of any part of military history more boring to me. What impressed me was the analysis of what went wrong in the planning of the Somme. As for the 'beautiful people' thing...I got nothing of the sort out of the description of the Yanomamo, a people that only the most strident cultural relativist could paint in a favorable light.

[Regnad Kcin]

Wrong as usual. It was Sept. 5th. You guys will do anything to make connections to Sept. 11th.You know how you can tell men didn't really land on the moon? That's right, July 21st.

Think about it.

[CurtC]

dubfan, are you still posting at LC? There's something I was hoping to follow up on, but I went and got myself banned. In this post (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3543&st=30&#entry4134883), Sun Zoo posted this:What else do you want - a professionally liscenced practicing structural engineer, right?

I'll have one within days I believe, a week max.

I'm a headhunter. In the Consulting Engineering world in the USA (though I don't talk to people, usually, about anything 9/11 in the course of conducting business). It's my job it's what I do.

There MUST be brave ones out there now ready to look at this information, I'll start making more calls..

Call it the Loose Change Contingency Search Assignment.

We'll get one, from New York City. That's where I'll find him. A high rise pro struct eng, who upon making his own investigation and examination, fully believes in 9/11 truth as we are presenting it, to certify, that the official story is utterly absurd nonsense and a great Big Lie, of the farthest reaching proportions and significance..

This was back on May 5. Could you, or anyone, please ask him how the search is going?

[dubfan]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3596&st=0&#last

this is all the proof I need to believe there were 2 planes

http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=323


No he said she said is going to change that, we're gonna have to have real investigation. SORRY

Because, you know, the NIST report just isn't credible, but some left-over, cached piece of crap from a defunct "Global Free Press" website whose home page now links to a currency exchange service...we'll believe that.

[karim]

Is it just me or does everybody get a message like this on LC forum when trying to post a reply?

"Your message has to be reviewed by the administrator before it can be seen on the board."

or something like that.

[OMGturt1es]

Is it just me or does everybody get a message like this on LC forum when trying to post a reply?

"Your message has to be reviewed by the administrator before it can be seen on the board."

or something like that.


i don't.

[OMGturt1es]

those LC forums are bubbling with knowledge and argument.

"Also, keep in mind that Im not accusing ALL Jews, however, Good Jews have a moral responsibility to fight evil Jews or Zionists who harm others in an evil way just as I have a moral responsibility as a Christian to fight those who use the name of Christ to harm others, as Bush and company have been doing."

"xtratabasco, this is an excellent article. I am a Christian. I believe, based on the Bible, that Israel has the right to the land they occupy. It is not the Palestinian's land. God gave it to the Jews."

if you find the thread that was posted in, the prize is having to have read one of the worst threads ever.

why can't i stop reading all that crap?

[karim]

why can't i stop reading all that crap?


I been having the same kind of problem for like a year now with this cradle of scientific knowledge:

control-alt-delete.ca/v-web/bulletin/bb/index.php

(just add http not www)
It's the "Conspiracy Central" forum index

Though they have a good tracker where they sometimes post some interesting "mainstream" documentaries.


I guess I've been black listed in LC-forum for links to Gravys document. :cool:

[OMGturt1es]

I been having the same kind of problem for like a year now with this cradle of scientific knowledge:

control-alt-delete.ca/v-web/bulletin/bb/index.php

(just add http not www)
It's the "Conspiracy Central" forum index

Though they have a good tracker where they sometimes post some interesting "mainstream" documentaries.


thanks for the link! i'll check it out... though i KNOW i shouldn't. i'll probably just end up wasting even more time there. ug...

[Ducky]

well there's a chat room now...


http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=708

[karim]

I asked TheQuest that does he get a cut from Loose Change DVD sales and now I'm banned. :)


EDIT: I guess the answer was yes.

[hurdygurdy]

dubfan, are you still posting at LC? There's something I was hoping to follow up on, but I went and got myself banned. In this post (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3543&st=30&#entry4134883), Sun Zoo posted this:

This was back on May 5. Could you, or anyone, please ask him how the search is going?

Done ;).

[milesalpha]

Not to mention, the Reichstag fire happened in 1933. It was a (non-lethal) faked attack by communist terrorists so that Hitler could circumvent the democratic institutions of the Weimar. The invasion of Poland didn't occur until September of 1939, 6 years later. And then, another fake attack (one where Polish destruction of bridges was faked to justify the invasion by an armored Nazi force that just happened to be amassed at the border) was committed to justify annexation of Poland (well, the half that Uncle Joe didn't get). The analogy doesn't quite fit. The Reichstag fire wasn't an excuse by Hitler to justify war. It was to justify giving himself totalitarian powers. Bush did no such thing after 9/11, no matter how you spin the Patriot Act.


Sigh, you just have to keep correcting them till they get it right.
The Reichstag fire was set by a nutty Dutch communist named Martinus van der Lubbe, according to the best available evidence. There is no evidence of involvement by the Nazis, merely convenient innuendo. The Nazis did make full use of the event to eliminate the communist and socialist parties. (Kershaw, who outranks Keegan for me, Hitler: Hubris 1889-1936, p 456-459).

[hurdygurdy]

why can't i stop reading all that crap?

Because you can find stuff like this one?:

krshna is the only way top the truth-

yeah i said it- this week i became krshna conscious. it easier to turn people to krsna than to the big fat american veil of illusion that covers half the world.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4023&st=90&#last

[WildCat]

Wow, just when you thought the CT couldn't get any more bizarre, along comes this thread. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4162)

:jaw-dropp

[OMGturt1es]

Because you can find stuff like this one?:


wow.

i had been posting in that thread, too.

i guess it's not really that surprising...

[Gravy]

Wow, just when you thought the CT couldn't get any more bizarre, along comes this thread. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4162)

:jaw-dropp
hey, geggy, you have to realize that it's not hard to run into CTs who are batsh**t crazy. Don't blame us. These people are taken seriously bay a large percentage of teh CT crowd. The "no-plene" idea is still worthy of consideration, according the the LC mods, the same mods that say "every theory must pass muster."
Dear Mr. Hough
Re: GE United 93 blown up by GE Pulse Detonation Engine?

In my previous e-mails to you, I suggested that Lloyd's of London Underwriters
initiate a RICO* civil suit against associates of the CAI Private Equity Group
('CAI') in respect of damages associated with alleged acts of racketeering,
murder, extortion, arson and insurance fraud on and after September 11, 2001.
http://www.caifunds.com/specialinvestors.html

RICO* - Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organization

My most recent research suggests that CAI ordered directors of GECAS (General
Electric Capital Aviation Services), Boeing and Cascade Aerospace to lease
modified passenger jets with flight numbers 11, 175, 77 and 93 for use in the
'Global Guardian' war games of 9/11 and simulate a Boeing-operated
Iridium-satellite remote-controlled 'cluster bomb'attack on selected targets in
New York and Washington, D.C.
http://www.cascadeaerospace.com/news/2005/...78?pageNumber=3

[Gravy]

well there's a chat room now...
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=708
Thay're sure to be much more accurate in real-time.

[Dr Adequate]

Parelsis...no I have not dismissed the CD theory. I will explain using pictures with graphics, possibly on mon. And the coincidences I was speaking of applies to different situations leading up, during and the aftermath of sept 11. Like the coincidences in foreknowledge/security standdown, the coincidences of hijackers' whereabouts, the coincidences of the wtc collapsing, etc all mushed into one big huge "coincidences" or "conspiracy", whichever applies to you.

Gravy...I'm not clear on why I owe you an apology.

Do you realize the 19 hijackers trained right here in america? Even several of them had resided in Maryland during training. Two of the hijackers lived with couple of FBI agents in california. Several of them got their training in aviation school in florida, owned by a known criminal with no pilot experience. Few of the hijackers were involved with various terrorist activities prior to sept 11, so how were they allowed into america with VISA that should have been denied?

Do you think the NSA was spying prior to sept 11? Dick cheney has fought for legislation to spy on "terrorists" without warrent since 1975. Do you remember how bill clinton got caught having an affair with monica lewinsky? So it has been proven countless times the NSA had been spying prior to sept 11...why were there no action taken toward the hijackers? So now there were real hijackers?

Good, we're making progress.

[Polaris]

Sigh, you just have to keep correcting them till they get it right.
The Reichstag fire was set by a nutty Dutch communist named Martinus van der Lubbe, according to the best available evidence. There is no evidence of involvement by the Nazis, merely convenient innuendo. The Nazis did make full use of the event to eliminate the communist and socialist parties. (Kershaw, who outranks Keegan for me, Hitler: Hubris 1889-1936, p 456-459).

Bah, details, details. You can forgive me for not giving the Nazis the benefit of the doubt. Regardless, geggy's analogy was poor - Hitler didn't use the Reichstag as an excuse to go to war. And none of this proves that Bush was behing 9/11 anyway.

[milesalpha]

Wow, just when you thought the CT couldn't get any more bizarre, along comes this thread. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4162)

:jaw-dropp

Hmm I read through this guy's stuff and he will send it to anyone. For some bizarre reason he includes the provincial reform party, which, in its illustrious history, has never held a single seat in the legislature. I expect he'll get around to all of us eventually. I do wonder what Hawks Cafe is, I picture a little dump of a coffee shop in Vancouver.

[aggle-rithm]

Yes, there are several examples where similar tragedies were allowed to occur in wartime, to avoid revealing intelligence-gathering methods. I can't think of others offhand, but the book "The Code Breakers" lists 'em.

I saw on a documentary that Churchill (while head of the British Navy) allowed the Lusitania to be sunk so that the US would be dragged into WWI. Any truth to this?

[Darat]

I saw on a documentary that Churchill (while head of the British Navy) allowed the Lusitania to be sunk so that the US would be dragged into WWI. Any truth to this?

Perhaps not the most neutral of sources but I generally refer to the following site as a first stop in checking out a "Churchill did/said..." allegation: http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=49

[Gravy]

I saw on a documentary that Churchill (while head of the British Navy) allowed the Lusitania to be sunk so that the US would be dragged into WWI. Any truth to this?
I'm not sure what that would entail. I've never read that he gave information to the Germans about its schedule or route, and while the sinking enraged Americans, it was nearly two years before the U.S. actively joined the fight.

[Polaris]

I saw on a documentary that Churchill (while head of the British Navy) allowed the Lusitania to be sunk so that the US would be dragged into WWI. Any truth to this?

Zero.

It didn't work anyway. The Lusitania was sunk in 1915. Wilson was re-elected in 1916 on a peace platform: "He kept us out of war!"

Besides, how would Churchill know about a specific enemy U-boot targetting a specific ship? How would he know where both would cross paths? In other words, how could Churchill be in any position to "allow" the German navy to do anything? Unless the HMS Lusitania was in a convoy, its risk travelling alone was just as great as any other ship.

Yes, the British wanted the US to enter the war on their side. They had a successful propaganda campaign demonizing the Hun (remember the crucified Canadian? And the rape of Poor Little Belgium?). The Lusitania get brought out at a cause for the US involvement in WW1 all the time - and it's understandable. The US did get involved, at least partly, because of Ludendorf's decree of unrestricted submarine warfare, which targetted all non-Alliance shipping (including neutral, including American). The other part was the Zimmerman Telegram, promising Mexico the return of its former territory in the US if it opened up a new front against America, should the US enter the war against Germany. The telegram was leaked via British intelligence, btw.

So submarines sinking ships did lead to America getting involved - it just had nothing to do with the Lusitania.

[geggy]

Bah, details, details. You can forgive me for not giving the Nazis the benefit of the doubt. Regardless, geggy's analogy was poor - Hitler didn't use the Reichstag as an excuse to go to war. And none of this proves that Bush was behing 9/11 anyway.

I said that the reichstag fire, in which the communists were first blamed as the culprit, gave hitler the throne while sept 11 gave bush the 90 percent approval rating and the justification to do whatever he wants just as using it as an invocation for the reason of stripping civil liberties, illegal spying activities, torture, invading middle east to meet with their agenda, etc all of which hitler has also done. If you think about it, they both benefitted immensely from these acts of terrorism. The question here is did bush admin make it happen because as histroy shows, they knew it would solidify their power?

[Regnad Kcin]

...The question here is did bush admin make it happen because as histroy shows, they knew it would solidify their power?Are you willfully dense, or naturally so?

Questions are not evidence!

[Pardalis]

Parelsis...no I have not dismissed the CD theory. I will explain using pictures with graphics, possibly on mon.

So geggy, can you show me then how a controlled demolition is supposed to fake a collapse from the top? With some info from experts in controlled demolitions please.


And the coincidences I was speaking of applies to different situations leading up, during and the aftermath of sept 11. Like the coincidences in foreknowledge/security standdown, the coincidences of hijackers' whereabouts, the coincidences of the wtc collapsing, etc all mushed into one big huge "coincidences" or "conspiracy", whichever applies to you.

Have you read any of the links about coincidences I posted? Besides, you haven't answered my question. What constitutes a coincidence to you (in general), not what are the coincidences you think there were.

[Pardalis]

I said that the reichstag fire, in which the communists were first blamed as the culprit, gave hitler the throne while sept 11 gave bush the 90 percent approval rating and the justification to do whatever he wants just as using it as an invocation for the reason of stripping civil liberties, illegal spying activities, torture, invading middle east to meet with their agenda, etc all of which hitler has also done.

Hitler invaded the Middle East??? (just joking)

[Pardalis]

sept 11 gave bush the 90 percent approval rating

Now it's at 33%, so what's your point?

[Polaris]

I said that the reichstag fire, in which the communists were first blamed as the culprit, gave hitler the throne while sept 11 gave bush the 90 percent approval rating and the justification to do whatever he wants just as using it as an invocation for the reason of stripping civil liberties, illegal spying activities, torture, invading middle east to meet with their agenda, etc all of which hitler has also done. If you think about it, they both benefitted immensely from these acts of terrorism. The question here is did bush admin make it happen because as histroy shows, they knew it would solidify their power?

So which civil liberties do you no longer enjoy? And how does Bush's benefitting from 9/11 in any way prove that he caused it to happen? And who is "they" who have this agenda? Did Hitler also serve "their" agenda? And what exactly is "their 'agenda'"? To be eeeeeeeeeeeevil without any real motivation? To bring the fight to those poor, innocent Wahhabi terrorists? I confused. Btw, as was pointed out, Hitler didn't cause the Reichstag fire - just as Bush didn't cause 9/11. In either case, there's no evidence for complicity.

In 1998, my house was robbed and several guns were stolen. It turns out the thief had been a friend of mine who had developed a drug addiction. When the insurance cut me a check, I got more back than the guns were worth. I benefitted - by your logic, I set up that break-in to my own house so I could make a profit with the insurance money (the agent was also in on it). And since my friend later got shot by another friend he also robbed, he can't say otherwise. How convenient for me!!! Who benefits doesn't prove anything except that people usually make lemonade out of lemons.

[karim]

Quote of the day:

"I have those lingering moments when I started to doubt like what if I wrong, what if i'm absolutely wrong."
Dylan Avery

Link to video:

.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZjJQWNQZog&search=dylan%20avery
(add www)

peace

[Dave_46]

I'm going to throw this out there to be devil's advocate (my apologies if somoene else already mentioned this - I only got to the quoted post in my reading of the thread).

The Coventry bombing by the Luftwaffe was allowed to happen by Churchill and Bomber Command. It was allowed to happen because it was believed that opposing the raid would give away the existence of the broken Enigma encryption to the Nazis. So it's not unprecedented - however, circumstances were certainly much different.

From Most Secret War by Dr R V Jones, head of Scientific Intelligence Service in WW2.

Chapter 18 "Coventry"

"Together we [he and his colleague Charles Frank] braced ourselves for the following night, and for whatever "Moonlight Sonata" might mean. It happened to be one of those afternoons when the Enogma signals to the X=beam stations were not broken in time, and we were left guessing."

He goes on to say, drawing on a review in the Times Literary Supplement for 28 May 1976 by Sir David Hunt, at one time Churchil's secretary.
"Churchill that afternoon had set out from London for Ditchley Park (the house a few miles north of Oxford which he used as a retreat in place of Chequers on moonlit nights) when he opened his box containing the latest Enigma decodes. A heavy raid was foreshadowed, and Churchil at once turned the car back to London. To those of us who knew him this could mean only one thing: he thought the attack was to be on London and that his duty, in character with his lifelong inclination, was to be where the fight was hottest."

Sorry if this is a bit late.

Dave

Edited to correct spelllinge mistooks

[Gravy]

Quote of the day:
"I have those lingering moments when I started to doubt like what if I wrong, what if i'm absolutely wrong."
Dylan Avery
That would have been a good question to ask before he made his video.

[Polaris]

Quote of the day:

"I have those lingering moments when I started to doubt like what if I wrong, what if i'm absolutely wrong."
Dylan Avery

Link to video:

.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZjJQWNQZog&search=dylan%20avery
(add www)

peace

Yeah, imagine that Dylan - here's a mop to clean your piss from the graves of 3000 innocent people.

[Dragon]

From Most Secret War by Dr R V Jones, head of Scientific Intelligence Service in WW2.

Chapter 18 "Coventry"

"Together we [he and his colleague Charles Frank] braced ourselves for the following night, and for whatever "Moonlight Sonata" might mean. It happened to be one of those afternoons when the Enogma signals to the X=beam stations were not broken in time, and we were left guessing."

He goes on to say, drawing on a review in the Times Literary Supplement for 28 May 1976 by Sir David Hunt, at one time Churchil's secretary.
"Churchill that afternoon had set out from London for Ditchley Park (the house a few miles north of Oxford which he used as a retreat in place of Chequers on moonlit nights) when he opened his box containing the latest Enigma decodes. A heavy raid was foreshadowed, and Churchil at once turned the car back to London. To those of us who knew him this could mean only one thing: he thought the attack was to be on London and that his duty, in character with his lifelong inclination, was to be where the fight was hottest."

Sorry if this is a bit late.

Dave

Edited to correct spelllinge mistooks
You beat me to it, Dave, so not that late. Just to add that "Most Secret War" is a great read for anyone interested in WW2, the Enigma/Ultra story, how intelligence services really operate or science and scepticism in general (for instance, Jones not only describes how Occam's Razor can be a brilliant analytical tool but also how it can sometimes lead to the wrong answer).
I believe the book was published as "Wizard War" in the US.

[sophia8]

Hmm I read through this guy's stuff and he will send it to anyone. For some bizarre reason he includes the provincial reform party, which, in its illustrious history, has never held a single seat in the legislature. I expect he'll get around to all of us eventually. I do wonder what Hawks Cafe is, I picture a little dump of a coffee shop in Vancouver.
Nah. This (http://www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/OsborneMS/cafeteria.htm) is the place. The prices ound amazingly reasonable.

[steve s]

Wow, just when you thought the CT couldn't get any more bizarre, along comes this thread. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4162)

:jaw-dropp

These guys are really starting to slip off the deep end. From that thread...

GECAS appears to have had a number of its Boeing 757 and 767s modified by Cascade to operate as 'Pulse Detonation Engines' ('PDE') where incendiary material was concealed inside the passenger cabins, for example behind cabin panels or inside passenger seats, so the planes could be detonated in sequence on impact (or discovery) and mutate into 'bunker-busting' cluster bombs.

So not only were the buildings packed with explosives, but the airplanes as well.

Steve S.

[Belz...]

It also sounds like what the Loose Change forum is doing when they ban any dissent and questions in pursuit of their 'opressive, free-speech crushing gub'mint'.

Yes. That's the saddest thing about it.

If this doesn't sound like a survivalist extremist, I don't know what will.

Incredible. They actually believe that any and all skeptics actually work for the government ? Wonder what they say about the posters who AREN'T from the US. Bunch of gits.

TheQuest is quite a piece of work. And he claims to be in his 50s, not his teens. Of all the exchanges I've seen on any forum, this one from LC is my favorite (in response to complaints about TheQuest banning me).

That was indeed masterful on Chipmunk's part.

Chipmunk Stew's reply was deleted from the thread.

Was it ? Talk about promoting free speech.

[Belz...]

I don't understand why you people are all hellbent on those activists who may well be cointelpros that advocates silly theories like the pod on planes, missile hit the pentagon, hologram, etc which may well be government propaganda in attempt to discredit the movement. instead of focusing on the works of more serious investigators...

Perhaps you can spot where in your post you start sounding paranoid.

Hint: it's in bold.

[Belz...]

Do you realize the 19 hijackers trained right here in america? Even several of them had resided in Maryland during training. Two of the hijackers lived with couple of FBI agents in california. Several of them got their training in aviation school in florida, owned by a known criminal with no pilot experience. Few of the hijackers were involved with various terrorist activities prior to sept 11, so how were they allowed into america with VISA that should have been denied?

This is getting rich. Basically, you're saying that your proof on a monstrous, carefully planned and skillfully executed conspiracy of THOUSANDS, is what would constitude a complete blunder due to incalculable incompetence, so much that any idiot on this planet could spot it ?

[Pardalis]

geggy seems ambivalent as to whether the 19 terrorists who borded these planes that morning actually did highjack these planes or they were there mearly by chance. Were they just coincindently bording these very same planes that hit the WTC towers, the Pentagon and the Pennsilvania field? Isn't there a lot of coincidences? 19 of them. Aren't they a little suspicious coincidences or are they just acceptable random twists of faith to you? What is an acceptable coincidence and a suspicious one? How is one supposed to tell them appart?

What is your idea of a coincidence geggy?

edited for clarity

[sat556]

So not only were the buildings packed with explosives, but the airplanes as well.


That rules out CD then yes?

Jeez they are hard to keep up with.

[T'ai Chi]

W(here)TF does the name 'Loose Change' come from?

[Gravy]

W(here)TF does the name 'Loose Change' come from?
It refers to the amount of money it cost. Funny, it doesn't show.

Yesterday I posted a long email (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1636384&postcount=3750) I had with a CT that included a loooong list of organizations the would have to be either fooled or lying in order for the conspiracy theory to work. The CT's contention was that the plan could have been carried out by 30 people. Today I got this response:

Me: Please provide evidence that only 30 people would need to know the "facts" about the conspiracy you posit.
*** PLEEEEASSSE! Let's not be idiotic! What are you 10? I guess you never heard of the CIA or NSA or DIA? They do things everyday that people don't know of that are often not very respectful. There are always classified missions going on with the SEALS. You don't hear of them do you? ***
Me: How about the people who planned this enormous operation? How many would you think would have to be "in the know?"
*** Very few! ***
'zat you, geggy?

[Regnad Kcin]

PLEEEEASSSE! Let's not be idiotic!And the Freudian Slip of the Year award goes to...

[hellaeon]

hmmm just caught up.

Perhaps these guys could enter the million dollar challenge.
I think the problem is actually knowing what evidence is.

keep it up guys....

[Gravy]

Am I the ONLY one who hadn't seen Penn & Teller on 9/11 CTs? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7501020220921158523&q=penn+%26+teller+conspiracy)
Not a lot of factual information, but very, very emotionally satisfying.

[Kevin_Lowe]

More comedy gold here...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4123

...as the Loosers discuss which other major historical events they "know" were all part of a terrible conspiracy.

At least they are consistently bad at figuring out what constitutes evidence. Interestingly, DJLegacy2k1, one of the more rabid Loosers, comes off as being mostly rational by comparison to the other posters. Maybe we are getting through to him/her?

[hellaeon]

I think Katie Holmes getting pregnant is a conspiracy.
Why the pharque would she want to have him as the father...I mean...come on...look at his face...

he is laughing...with OPRAH WINFREY....'Im so rich look at me laughing'....totally evil...We know its a coverup...You know thats not how your supposed to react in a situation. Coincidence? I think not....

[hellaeon]

"I'm the key figure in an ongoing government charade to plot to conceal the truth about 9/11. It's a global consiracy, actually, with key players in the highest levels of power, and it reaches down to the lives of every man, woman, and child on this planet. So, of course, no one believes me. I'm a, I'm an annoyance to my superiors, a joke to my peers. They call me Dylan....Dylan Avery, whose sister was abducted by aliens when he was just a kid, and now chases after Men in Black with grainy videos and his hands on his ears shouting to the heavens or anyone who will listen that the fix is in, that the sky is falling. And when it hits it's gonna be the sh*t storm of all time."

[dubfan]

Quote of the day:

"I have those lingering moments when I started to doubt like what if I wrong, what if i'm absolutely wrong."
Dylan Avery

Link to video:

.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZjJQWNQZog&search=dylan%20avery
(add www)

peace

Wow.

Functional link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZjJQWNQZog&search=dylan%20avery

[hellaeon]

you know do the numbers.

1000 DVD's pressed at 20 bucks a pop...

I can see why this is important to them.
Its like doing a demo cd for your band.

Conspiracy

[Polaris]

I think Katie Holmes getting pregnant is a conspiracy.
Why the pharque would she want to have him as the father...I mean...come on...look at his face...

he is laughing...with OPRAH WINFREY....'Im so rich look at me laughing'....totally evil...We know its a coverup...You know thats not how your supposed to react in a situation. Coincidence? I think not....

He looks like a kid who's just watched someone light a fart for the first time. Oprah looks like she's watching a grown man laugh like he's a kid watching someone light a fart for the first time.

[aggle-rithm]

They do things everyday that people don't know of that are often not very respectful. There are always classified missions going on with the SEALS.

Must I ask the obvious question?

How does this person know that the NSA and CIA do things that no one knows about?

[dubfan]

Must I ask the obvious question?

How does this person know that the NSA and CIA do things that no one knows about?

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gifhttp://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gifhttp://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/thumbsup.gif

[Belz...]

More comedy gold here...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4123

From that thread:

There were a number of very rich and powerful men who made it abundantly clear that they were not in favor of the Federal Reserve System. J.P. Morgan was ordered by the Jesuits to build the Titanic. This ‘unsinkable’ ship would serve as the death ship for those who opposed the Jesuits’ plan for a Federal Reserve system.

These rich and powerful men would have been able to block the establishment of the Federal Reserve, and their power and fortunes had to be taken out of their hands. They had to be destroyed by a means so preposterous that no one would suspect that they were murdered, and no one would suspect the Jesuits...

Do they have a morbid need for intrigue, or what ?

More nuggets:

You know the official explanation for TWA 800 was "spontaneous combustion." Specifically frayed wires inside the fuel tank, vapor pressure, etc but it comes down to the plane just exploded for no reason.

The London and Spain bombings were indeed inside jobs.

These events weer covered extensively by several researchers and posted on many webites.

Pearl Harbor... always gives me shivers. Talk about complicity.

I doubt you will find one person that will argue that the govt had no knowlege of an impending attack.

Argh!

[Belz...]

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gifhttp://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gifhttp://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/Crylol.gif

http://67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/thumbsup.gif

Dammit guys, Dubfan's been infected!

[atarian]

i just got an email from Michael Meacher's assistant. She claims he is not arranging a screening of Loose Change at the UK Houses of Parliament.

Whether he was, and has changed his mind; or never was at all is not stated in the email she sent me.

[WildCat]

i just got an email from Michael Meacher's assistant. She claims he is not arranging a screening of Loose Change at the UK Houses of Parliament.

Whether he was, and has changed his mind; or never was at all is not stated in the email she sent me.
What?! Are you calling the TRUTH movement liars?

:D

[atarian]

Got some clarification: "He had agreed in principle, but after full consideration decided against it."

[atarian]

What?! Are you calling the TRUTH movement liars?

:D

You might well think that. I however... couldn't possibly comment.

[brodski]

i just got an email from Michael Meacher's assistant. She claims he is not arranging a screening of Loose Change at the UK Houses of Parliament.

Whether he was, and has changed his mind; or never was at all is not stated in the email she sent me.
I'll check tonight to see if he's replied to the e-mail I got my parents to send him. Perhaps he will be more forthcoming to some of his constituents. But given how safe his seat is, and his general record as an MP, I doubt it.

[pgwenthold]

I saw on a documentary that Churchill (while head of the British Navy) allowed the Lusitania to be sunk so that the US would be dragged into WWI. Any truth to this?

Well, the Lusitania was sunk on September 11th. You think that is a coincidence?

[chipmunk stew]

I find this LC thread extremely encouraging:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4032

The overall consensus seems to be: Well everyone knows Loose Change isn't 100% factually correct, but the point is, it's brought a lot of people to the truth movement.
Contrast this with a month or so ago, when it seemed to be: Loose Change is the gospel truth.

[aggle-rithm]

I find this LC thread extremely encouraging:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4032

The overall consensus seems to be: Well everyone knows Loose Change isn't 100% factually correct, but the point is, it's brought a lot of people to the truth movement.
Contrast this with a month or so ago, when it seemed to be: Loose Change is the gospel truth.

This is the same logic used to defend corrupt Christian ministers, such as Jim Jones of Jonestown fame. "Sure, he lies and cheats and fornicates, but he brings so many people to Christ..."

[aggle-rithm]

Got some clarification: "He had agreed in principle, but after full consideration decided against it."

Translation: He actually WATCHED the movie, then said, "Holy crap! What have I agreed to?!?"

Sort of like the "poofy shirt" on "Seinfeld".

[chipmunk stew]

Got some clarification: "He had agreed in principle, but after full consideration decided against it."Thanks for looking into it.
It doesn't appear that the Loosers are aware of this yet:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3998
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4001

I wonder who they'll blame. Obviously THEY got to him.

[chipmunk stew]

Translation: He actually WATCHED the movie, then said, "Holy crap! What have I agreed to?!?"

Sort of like the "poofy shirt" on "Seinfeld".Maybe he got hold of Gravy's critique. :D

[ob986s]

Nah. This (http://www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/OsborneMS/cafeteria.htm) is the place. The prices ound amazingly reasonable.


Gwinnet Country GA and the Gwinnet school system, that really could be the place. Right now they are actively debating on pulling the Harry Potter books out of the school libraries because they deal with "Black Magic", Witchcraft and the Occult according to a few Christian loonies.

I think you found the Occult tie to 9/11! Works when viewed through CT lens anyway

jon

[WildCat]

Translation: He actually WATCHED the movie, then said, "Holy crap! What have I agreed to?!?"

Sort of like the "poofy shirt" on "Seinfeld".
But I don't want to be a pirate!

[kookbreaker]

Pearl Harbor... always gives me shivers. Talk about complicity.

I doubt you will find one person that will argue that the govt had no knowlege of an impending attack.

Actually, I'm sure you'll find lots of people who will argue that the government did not know there would be an attack. What are those people called? HISTORIANS!

Did I mention I really, really find conspiracy theorists to be condescending [rule8]'s?

[dubfan]

This is pretty rich coming from the crowd that shot down all the United 93 forums. How many different U93 forums were there? There were at least two that I know of that were shut down because of Looser spam.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3839&view=findpost&p=4445153

[Tirdun]

Did I mention I really, really find conspiracy theorists to be condescending [rule8]'s?

Is there no pathetic theory that CTs will not trot out? No grave or ground so sacred that they won't drive a stake into so to lash an imaginary guy wire to their tower? No theory so dumb and disassembled that they will not raid its carcass for parts?

Maybe Bush and his ilk used the same technology used in the Philidelphia Experiment to TELEPORT the bombs into the towers!

Maybe the FX used when hoaxing the world during Apollo was fed to CNN!

Maybe everyone involved in developing ECHELON were secretly invited to the resteraunt atop the WTC for breakfast that morning by ...

Wow, I just realized that last one sounded less like a joke and more like something I'd actually read on a CT site. Ye gods, they're breaking into my mind.

[Pardalis]

Well, the Lusitania was sunk on September 11th. You think that is a coincidence?

Are you sure? I think it was the 7th of May;)

http://www.greatships.net/lusitania.html

[Pardalis]

Is there no pathetic theory that CTs will not trot out? No grave or ground so sacred that they won't drive a stake into so to lash an imaginary guy wire to their tower? No theory so dumb and disassembled that they will not raid its carcass for parts?

Maybe Bush and his ilk used the same technology used in the Philidelphia Experiment to TELEPORT the bombs into the towers!

Maybe the FX used when hoaxing the world during Apollo was fed to CNN!

Maybe everyone involved in developing ECHELON were secretly invited to the resteraunt atop the WTC for breakfast that morning by ...

Wow, I just realized that last one sounded less like a joke and more like something I'd actually read on a CT site. Ye gods, they're breaking into my mind.

These would make great movies tho!

[pgwenthold]

Are you sure? I think it was the 7th of May;)

http://www.greatships.net/lusitania.html


(Like a good CTer, I will just ignore that. Facts? Who needs them. I will just make things up, its easier)

[Pardalis]

May 7th, September 11th... who cares? It was attacked but "they" knew about it in advance!!:boggled:

[Hellbound]

I'm still giggling about "bunker busting cluster bombs"

That's freakin great. And just goes to prove my point that none of these people have spent any amount of time whatsoever learning about explosives.

Cluster bomb: A bomb desinged to disperse hundreds of tiny submunitions over a target area. Primarily effective against massed troops or light armor, or for cratering roads, bridges, and runways. Not effective against hardened targets, but deadly against lightly protected targets over a wide area. Lots of collateral damage, as everything within the radius has a high chance of being hit by submunitions or shrapnel.

Bunker-Buster: And explosive desinged with a heavy, armored tip and a time-delay fuse, designed to explode only after significant penetration into the target material, and then focusing the balst forward for greater penetration. Can often take out heavily fortified targets with little to no collateral damage.

"It's a light-colored pitch-black plane!"

*snicker*

[kookbreaker]

I'm still giggling about "bunker busting cluster bombs"

That's freakin great. And just goes to prove my point that none of these people have spent any amount of time whatsoever learning about explosives.

Cluster bomb: A bomb desinged to disperse hundreds of tiny submunitions over a target area. Primarily effective against massed troops or light armor, or for cratering roads, bridges, and runways. Not effective against hardened targets, but deadly against lightly protected targets over a wide area. Lots of collateral damage, as everything within the radius has a high chance of being hit by submunitions or shrapnel.

Bunker-Buster: And explosive desinged with a heavy, armored tip and a time-delay fuse, designed to explode only after significant penetration into the target material, and then focusing the balst forward for greater penetration. Can often take out heavily fortified targets with little to no collateral damage.

"It's a light-colored pitch-black plane!"

*snicker*

You get the feeling that if these guys actually ever were in the military, they spent a lot of time trying to find bottles of elbow grease, headlight fluid, and grid squares for their squad?

[Dragon]

You get the feeling that if these guys actually ever were in the military, they spent a lot of time trying to find bottles of elbow grease, headlight fluid, and grid squares for their squad?
:D :D not to mention striped paint, left handed spanners and sky hooks ...

[brodski]

:D :D not to mention striped paint, left handed spanners and sky hooks ...
or just the classic big weights (waits) and long stands. :D

[Hutch]

Actually, I'm sure you'll find lots of people who will argue that the government did not know there would be an attack. What are those people called? HISTORIANS!

Well, just for the sake of argument (since the 9-11'ers seem to be in a lull period--probably deciding whom next to send into battle as geggy may have shot his bolt--the US Government had very strong suspicions, based on prior inteliigence intercepts and Japanese actions after the US shut off the oil and steel trade, that Japan would move into Malaysia/Java area and before doing that, would secure their flank by striking US assets, but most thought such a strike would be in the Phillipines, to lure the US Fleet out for the 'decisive battle' that naval stragetists of that period talked about.

So there was some anticipation in the Government that there would be an attack. What was NOT KNOWN was the size of the attack, the target and the date--which are mildly important when it comes to conspiracies.

Carry on.


Did I mention I really, really find conspiracy theorists to be condescending [rule8]'s?

Think you could probably drop the 'condescending'...

[Hellbound]

You get the feeling that if these guys actually ever were in the military, they spent a lot of time trying to find bottles of elbow grease, headlight fluid, and grid squares for their squad?

ID-10-T forms, TR double E's, looking for weak spots in armor, collecting exhaust samples, finding a PRC-E-7 (PRC pronounced Prick, stands for Personal Radio Communicator...E-7 is also a designation of rank-so send them to Commo to ask for a Prick E-7), cans of squelch, tone-down remover, 500 feet of flight line, sent to the Aid Station for a box of Fallopian Tubes, etc, etc, etc.

I figure these were always the people who were told "We need you to go here (points to spot on map 10 miles behind enemy lines) and blow this fog horn. That'll be the signal for the rest of us to attack here (points to spot 10 miles away). You'll be our Deco...um...Deep Cover person."

[chipmunk stew]

ID-10-T forms, TR double E's, looking for weak spots in armor, collecting exhaust samples, finding a PRC-E-7 (PRC pronounced Prick, stands for Personal Radio Communicator...E-7 is also a designation of rank-so send them to Commo to ask for a Prick E-7), cans of squelch, tone-down remover, 500 feet of flight line, sent to the Aid Station for a box of Fallopian Tubes, etc, etc, etc.

I figure these were always the people who were told "We need you to go here (points to spot on map 10 miles behind enemy lines) and blow this fog horn. That'll be the signal for the rest of us to attack here (points to spot 10 miles away). You'll be our Deco...um...Deep Cover person."There's probably some spillover between military and engineering pranks. I don't know its origins, but I got caught asking, "What's a Metric Henway?"

[aggle-rithm]

There's probably some spillover between military and engineering pranks. I don't know its origins, but I got caught asking, "What's a Metric Henway?"

I worked in management at McDonald's a couple of decades ago. We would ask newbies to refill the drinking fountain. We also asked them to refill the bun steamer after labelling the CO2 tanks "Steam".

[Pardalis]

I once wanted to ask a waitress for some pie but I forgot the word in english so I said "give me some tart" ("tarte" is french for "pie").

[Gravy]

Got some clarification: "He had agreed in principle, but after full consideration decided against it."
Thanks for doing that, Atarian. I was going to wait a week before challenging him to a fistfight. I wonder if a single MP would actually show up to a screening like that.

[Regnad Kcin]

May 7th, September 11th... who cares? It was attacked but "they" knew about it in advance!!:boggled:You know when JFK was killed, right? Also, the "supposed" moon landings?

Spooky!

[Gravy]

I'm still giggling about "bunker busting cluster bombs"
*snicker*
I wonder if they finally did the wise thing and adopted the theory I offered them long ago:
Allow me to propose a theory that is far, far more plausible than the one you've proposed. Feel free to explore it: it comes with a Creative Commons license.

Okay, we know the U.S. has planes that are stealthy to radar, right? Suppose those planes can fly high enough to also be virtually invisible to the naked eye (they probably can). Then suppose we have a technology that allows them to leave no contrails (or chemtrails, for that matter).

Now, we also know that the U.S. has GPS-guided "bunker buster" bombs with fuses that can be programmed to sense voids. These bombs can go through layers of concrete/empty space/rock, etc. and then explode when they reach the predetermined void, such as Osama bin Laden's subterranean dialysis room. See where I'm goin' with this?

Suppose we have the technology to make those bunker busters invisible to radar and to the naked eye and recording devices, in daylight.

Problem solved. No invisible workers with invisible explosives did invisible construction at the WTC. No airliner pilots or R/C operators had to strike the exact floors where explosives were hidden. Just this: a spotter called the location of the fires to the stealth pilots, who programmed the bomb fuses to explode on those floors, and dropped their bombs right "down the pipes." A special explosive would have to be used, but that's a minor point. Or perhaps the bombs had some king of high-tech bolas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolas) inside that wrapped around the columns and torqued them apart.

That's my theory, and I can't for the life of me figure out why a commission isn't investigating it. Can you?

[WildCat]

Back at the Lose Change forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3543&st=90&#last):
Sun Zoo, did you get that structural engineer?


I haven't had time, but it's on the agenda. It's inevitable that they will start to come forward, as the "climate" improves for 9/11 truth.

Yep, any day now, they'll be coming over in droves to support you... :D

[Gravy]

I once wanted to ask a waitress for some pie but I forgot the word in english so I said "give me some tart" ("tarte" is french for "pie").
I once asked a French hotel concierge to "agitate me in the morning."

[kookbreaker]

Back at the Lose Change forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3543&st=90&#last):



Yep, any day now, they'll be coming over in droves to support you... :D

The day Structural Engineers start coming over in drove to the CT line of thinking is the day I stop entering any buildings taller than four stories.

[Gravy]

You get the feeling that if these guys actually ever were in the military, they spent a lot of time trying to find bottles of elbow grease, headlight fluid, and grid squares for their squad?

Korey Rowe was in the army in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe that's why he didn't participate in the phone interview that Avery and Bermas did with Holocaust/Apollo/9-11 CT Eric Hufschmid. This is from Hufschmid's article Investigate the Truth Seekers: (http://www.erichufschmid.net/InvestigateTheTruthSeekers.htm)
Don't be a sucker

A good example is the American military. The Zionist Mafia has deceived the American military into becoming a pack of attack dogs.

The American soldiers who are dying and suffering health problems from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not sacrificing their lives to protect America from terrorism. Nor are they dying for the Jesuits, the black pope, or the New World Order.

The American soldiers are suckers; fools; Useful Idiots. They are sacrificing their lives -- and destroying the lives of Arabs -- for Israel, the Rothschilds, and other people who probably best described as members of a Zionist Mafia.

[dubfan]

Hey, everybody. Gravy's got his own fan club over there now.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3756

[chipmunk stew]

There's probably some spillover between military and engineering pranks. I don't know its origins, but I got caught asking, "What's a Metric Henway?"(BTW, the appropriate response is: "About 2 kg")

[hurdygurdy]

More comedy gold here...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4123

...as the Loosers discuss which other major historical events they "know" were all part of a terrible conspiracy.


I guess Madrid was the wisest master plan: "they" planted the bombs three days before the elections, then one of Bush's most fervent allies in Europe would be kicked out of the government.

[chipmunk stew]

Hey, everybody. Gravy's got his own fan club over there now.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3756 Clearly, Mark Roberts is a DISINFORMATION TERRORIST who was payd to write this pile-o-dung.

[brodski]

I wonder if a single MP would actually show up to a screening like that. you do know that George "I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability" Galloway is an MP.
Just to give you an idea of the caliber of our elected representatives.
I'm glad that Meacher called off the serening. He still hasn't replied to his constituents over the issue though.

[Dragon]

ID-10-T forms, TR double E's, looking for weak spots in armor, collecting exhaust samples, finding a PRC-E-7 (PRC pronounced Prick, stands for Personal Radio Communicator...E-7 is also a designation of rank-so send them to Commo to ask for a Prick E-7), cans of squelch, tone-down remover, 500 feet of flight line, sent to the Aid Station for a box of Fallopian Tubes, etc, etc, etc.

I figure these were always the people who were told "We need you to go here (points to spot on map 10 miles behind enemy lines) and blow this fog horn. That'll be the signal for the rest of us to attack here (points to spot 10 miles away). You'll be our Deco...um...Deep Cover person."Just remembered an almost appropriate one that was popular in the Met Police a while back - getting someone to ring up the station at Heathrow Airport and ask for D.C. Tenn.

(for those the other side of the pond - D.C.=Detective Constable)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Clearly, Mark Roberts is a DISINFORMATION TERRORIST who was payd to write this pile-o-dung.

Watching the LC forum is like watching a reinactment of the inquisition. They've nicely summarized what is considered to be heretical thought, they excommunicate those that disagree with them, and they are trying to push their agenda onto everyone else. It would fascinating if it was so terrifying and annoying.

[senorpogo]

When the CTs claim that there are debunkings of Gravy's debunking, are they being complete and total liars or are there some actual attempts to counter his points?

Also -

Let's take bets on the over/under of how many LC supporters actually have read Gravy's work in it's entirity. Where should we set the lin 4.5?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

When the CTs claim that there are debunkings of Gravy's debunking, are they being complete and total liars or are there some actual attempts to counter his points?

Also -

Let's take bets on the over/under of how many LC supporters actually have read Gravy's work in it's entirity. Where should we set the lin 4.5?

From what I've read, the extent of their debunking is (1) taking Gravy's quotes out of context to set up strawmen (go figure) and (2) saying, "nuh-uh!"

[Gravy]

Clearly, Mark Roberts is a DISINFORMATION TERRORIST who was payd to write this pile-o-dung.
Wait, according to Hufschmid, Dylan Avery and "99% of all CTs" are DITs (disinformation terrorists):
If you want a more diabolical possibility, consider that Dylan Avery and/or Jason Bermas are connected to the criminal network through relatives. In such a case, their relatives may have encouraged Avery or Bermas to create this video in order to give them something to push aside "Painful Deceptions." [Hufschmid's video]

[brodski]

When the CTs claim that there are debunkings of Gravy's debunking, are they being complete and total liars or are there some actual attempts to counter his points? There doesn't seem to have been an actual attempt to counter Gravy's critique, just a few attacks on his sarcasm, and a misreading of one of his paragraphs which makes it look like he got one of his facts wrong.
Most outers just claim that it's the same old points, that where countered before gravy did his piece. In short their claims of a rebuttal of gravy's analysis stand up to scrutiny to the same degree as the rest of their claims.

Your post does raise one other interesting point, how should we refer to a counter argument to a debunking? A re-bunking perhaps?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...
Your post does raise one other interesting point, how should we refer to a counter argument to a debunking? A re-bunking perhaps?

In the case of the LC group, I think, "The monkeys are shrieking again." works well. Or perhaps, "An exercise in demonstrating logical fallacies".

[money]

Hey, everybody. Gravy's got his own fan club over there now.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3756

Poster "rennie" had this to say, in the 8th post down in that thread, "I'm deaf, so that's what I did because there isn't a subtitled version out."

Who wants to bet that's Geggy?

[Gravy]

I love the fact that one of them said how poor my transcription was, when in fact it was cut and pasted directly from the Loose Change site. I just didn't correct their typos and other errors.

Somebody please tell them that I'd be glad to defend my work, but I'm banned from their site, so they'll need to come over here for discussion or email me.

[Yahzi]

I have the same question for these conspiracy nuts as I do for the moan-hoaxers: Why?

The level of effort and expense to fake these events dwarfs any value anyone could extract from them. What does Bush get out of the war in Iraq, other than the worst poll numbers in history?

[Blackwell]

I have the same question for these conspiracy nuts as I do for the moan-hoaxers...

I've had a suspicion lately that my wife is a moan-hoaxer.

[Gravy]

I've had a suspicion lately that my wife is a moan-hoaxer.:eye-poppi

[Gravy]

I have the same question for these conspiracy nuts as I do for the moan-hoaxers: Why?

The level of effort and expense to fake these events dwarfs any value anyone could extract from them. What does Bush get out of the war in Iraq, other than the worst poll numbers in history?
This is what I argue when the CTs talk about the PNAC's "New Pearl Harbor" statement. What's happening now is exactly the opposite of what the neocons who wrote that document wanted. They wanted hundreds of billions of dollars for a missile defense shield around the U.S. Their document explicitly states that the shield should be the #1 priority for the military and for tech R&D. The last thing they wanted was to spend that money on a ground war with people armed with RPGs and old artillery shells turned into IEDs.

And that's all for the abbreviations for now.

[hurdygurdy]

Somebody please tell them that I'd be glad to defend my work, but I'm banned from their site, so they'll need to come over here for discussion or email me.

Done.

[Pardalis]

Poster "rennie" had this to say, in the 8th post down in that thread, "I'm deaf, so that's what I did because there isn't a subtitled version out."

Who wants to bet that's Geggy?

:D

[Pardalis]

geggy, rennie, come back to us! We miss our dayly dose of laughter!

[Pardalis]

Funny how people accusing others of disinformation are themselves doing "diss"information.

[CurtC]

Whatever happened to Xraye? He sounded relatively reasonable, said something about taking a little time to catch up with the arguments, but I haven't seen him post here in several days.

[bob_kark]

I've had a suspicion lately that my wife is a moan-hoaxer.

I think a viewing of the BA website in a Clockwork Orange type setting would be appropriate.

[Regnad Kcin]

I'm less concerned with most who vigorously cling to the belief in a 9/11 conspiracy, regardless. That they do so as an infant does to its mother's teat is not surprising. Human history shows there never has been a shortage of the credulous, and there likely never will be. This alleged conspiracy, requiring, by its parameters, immeasurable amounts of planning, execution, and follow-up, is so outlandish on its face, I can only be amused and saddened by its adherents, but not surprised. There is, simply, a sucker born every minute.

But what of the more intelligent? I don't mean to say that people who possess an above-average bag of smarts can't be taken in at various times during their lifetime. Absolutely not. What I can't account for is those with a brain perched above their spinal cord who could view Gravy's analysis and deconstruction of "Loose Change" and still go on shouting, "Conspiracy! Inside job! TRUTH!"

Which leaves the thought that there is simply a greater agenda at hand for certain of our fellow citizens. And this little video we've been discussing is merely one tool being used for its construction.

[Regnad Kcin]

I've had a suspicion lately that my wife is a moan-hoaxer.Now that's comedy!

[Gravy]

I was pointed to a recent CT radio show in which Avery mentions my critique: http://www.theedgeam.com/interviews/Dylan_Avery_05.13.06.mp3

I didn't listen to the whole thing. It's the usual b.s. Here's a summary of what he said about my piece:
These people have nothing to come back with. I'm giving them science and logic and evidence and they're coming back with 'You're a stupid kid.' That doesn't refute anything.
I wonder if the Loosers think that there will be a time when their ideas will not be in the same group as these:
Every week you'll hear exciting interviews and discussions on topics such as 9/11, Angels, Near Death Experiences, Planetary Anomalies, Political Controversy, Black Ops, Alternative Science, Natural Remedies to Old Earth/Young Earth, Hell, Lost Continents, Aliens, Cryptozology, Space Travel and much, much more! Enlightening, Entertaining and Controversial. "Discovering The Truth Together". You can call Daniel at 800.996.9638 or e-mail at danielott@theedgeam.com

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I'm less concerned with most who vigorously cling to the belief in a 9/11 conspiracy, regardless. That they do so as an infant does to its mother's teat is not surprising. Human history shows there never has been a shortage of the credulous, and there likely never will be. This alleged conspiracy, requiring, by its parameters, immeasurable amounts of planning, execution, and follow-up, is so outlandish on its face, I can only be amused and saddened by its adherents, but not surprised. There is, simply, a sucker born every minute.

But what of the more intelligent? I don't mean to say that people who possess an above-average bag of smarts can't be taken in at various times during their lifetime. Absolutely not. What I can't account for is those with a brain perched above their spinal cord who could view Gravy's analysis and deconstruction of "Loose Change" and still go on shouting, "Conspiracy! Inside job! TRUTH!"

Which leaves the thought that there is simply a greater agenda at hand for certain of our fellow citizens. And this little video we've been discussing is merely one tool being used for its construction.

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

Those that have the above-average bag of smarts in their brain bucket have their views and, as they are intelligent, but don't practice skeptically thinking, their confirmational bias is strong and they do not way the evidence evenly. They are not practicing scientific methodogy, they are practicing intellectual politics.

[Pardalis]

"science and logic and evidence"... Did he even read your critique Gravy?

[senorpogo]

These people have nothing to come back with. I'm giving them science and logic and evidence and they're coming back with 'You're a stupid kid.' That doesn't refute anything.

This is what I don't get. When this guy reads your critique, what's his thought process? Do you think he consciously realizes that the criticisms of his work are valid, but since he has so much invested in the movie and the conspiracy he has to stand by them? Or is he truly unreachable, truly delusional? Does he honestly believe that there is no way he's wrong and his opponents are right? Does he think -

(A) Wow. He raises a lot of good points. Many of my facts were wrong, my experts were crackpots, I never personally interviewed anyone. But I've invested so much time and effort into this, I'm better blowing the critiques off by acting like there's no value to his criticisms. Better yet, I'll just characterize his arguments as "he says I'm a stupid kid".

or

(B) Wow. This guy doesn't raise any good points. He just thinks I'm a stupid kid.

[Pardalis]

Does he think -

(A) Wow. He raises a lot of good points. Many of my facts were wrong, my experts were crackpots, I never personally interviewed anyone. But I've invested so much time and effort into this, I'm better blowing the critiques off by acting like there's no value to his criticisms. Better yet, I'll just characterize his arguments as "he says I'm a stupid kid".

or

(B) Wow. This guy doesn't raise any good points. He just thinks I'm a stupid kid.

I think both. The latter is the rationalization of the former. A good technique for people who don't want to admit their wrong doings.

[Gravy]

I sent Dylan Avery an email today:
Dear Mr. Avery,

Recently I sent you a link to an updated version of my critique of "Loose Change." In case you missed it, you can view the HTML version here http://tinyurl.com/jnfp8 or download the .doc file (with an index to all the subjects covered) here: http://tinyurl.com/epp82

It has been pointed out to me that you have mentioned my critique to the media and have said that it amounts to little more than name-calling, and that it doesn't refute anything.

Since you're confident of that, I'm sure you'll have no hesitation in accepting my challenge to a public, moderated debate about the merits of the claims made in "Loose Change." I've only been aware of these 9/11 conspiracy issues for a few weeks. You have a four-year head start on me, so won't it be satisfying to take your most public detractor "out behind the woodshed?" I'd like to do this as soon as possible. I am available on short notice.

I suggest New York City as the debate location for these reasons:

1) I live there.
2) It is featured prominently in your video
3) Many members of the "9/11 Truth Movement" live here and would be sure to attend
4) It is the media capital of the world

The event would be recorded on video and made available to the public via Google Video and other distribution services. I'm sure you'll agree that a video of you trouncing your most outspoken opponent would be a great selling point for "Loose Change Final Cut."

Please let me know what dates would be good for you..

Sincerely,
Mark Roberts

cc: Jason Bermas, Korey Rowe

[bob_kark]

Wow, Gravy, quite a challenge. I'm sure you're aware of the complications in a live debate with a CTer. I'd suggest listening to some other woo debates, such as the Kent Hovind debate on the Infidel Guy show to get an idea on how these guys operate. Lot of smoke and mirrors to cover their complete lack of substance. Of course, this is all assuming that he accepts.

[Gravy]

Wow, Gravy, quite a challenge. I'm sure you're aware of the complications in a live debate with a CTer. I'd suggest listening to some other woo debates, such as the Kent Hovind debate on the Infidel Guy show to get an idea on how these guys operate. Lot of smoke and mirrors to cover their complete lack of substance. Of course, this is all assuming that he accepts.
I'm perfectly prepared. :D

[dubfan]

These people have nothing to come back with. I'm giving them science and logic and evidence and they're coming back with 'You're a stupid kid.' That doesn't refute anything.

Breathtaking. Loose Change 2 is completely devoid of any sort of science, logic, or evidence.

I think Dylan is very ego-invested in this thing now, and he is in deep denial here. My theory is that he actually doesn't even believe his own ********, but now the Loose Change train's left the station and he's hanging on for dear life.

[senorpogo]

I'm perfectly prepared. :D

Gravy showing manliness of Chuck Norris magnitude.

[bob_kark]

Excellent! Also, re-reading my post, I didn't mean to come of sounding as if you were unprepared. Just wanted to point out that people like Hovind fire off so many rounds, it can be a bit difficult to dodge and return fire. Best of luck!

[Gravy]

Breathtaking. Loose Change 2 is completely devoid of any sort of science, logic, or evidence.

I think Dylan is very ego-invested in this thing now, and he is in deep denial here. My theory is that he actually doesn't even believe his own ********, but now the Loose Change train's left the station and he's hanging on for dear life.
The new version of the movie will be interesting to see. In the second version they removed the "pod/missile" theory and added the flight 93 Cleveland garbage. They added a large section that is much stupider and much more easy to disprove than the pod/missile idea. So that's not encouraging.

But we know from interviews they've done that they're dropping the "Karl Schwarz/A-3 Attack plane struck the Pentagon" stuff. So that's an improvement. I would expect them to go more with accusations and innuendo against politicians than with details about planes crashing and buildings falling.

[dubfan]

Excellent! Also, re-reading my post, I didn't mean to come of sounding as if you were unprepared. Just wanted to point out that people like Hovind fire off so many rounds, it can be a bit difficult to dodge and return fire. Best of luck!

I definitely saw that technique with Rox. He tries to overwhelm you with trivia -- Why was William Rodriguez's most important testimony omitted from the 9/11 Commission Report? (complex-question fallacy, btw) What level were the WTC gas lines installed? Blah, blah, blah. He tries to expose gaps in your knowledge in an attempt to damage your credibility. He never bothers to explain how those bits of trivia support the central thesis, and he never considers for a moment that there might be an alternative but reasonable answer that contradicts the CT.

[hellaeon]

Your post does raise one other interesting point, how should we refer to a counter argument to a debunking? A re-bunking perhaps?

Denial

[dubfan]

The new version of the movie will be interesting to see. In the second version they removed the "pod/missile" theory and added the flight 93 Cleveland garbage. They added a large section that is much stupider and much more easy to disprove than the pod/missile idea. So that's not encouraging.

But we know from interviews they've done that they're dropping the "Karl Schwarz/A-3 Attack plane struck the Pentagon" stuff. So that's an improvement. I would expect them to go more with accusations and innuendo against politicians than with details about planes crashing and buildings falling.

I agree -- I think there will be more focus on legitimate issues such as the government's reluctance to release the Pentagon security camera video, Able Danger (of course this will simultaneously detonate the theory that the hijackers are alive, etc.), the limited focus of the Congressional 9/11 inquiry (in order to protect both the Bush & Clinton administrations).

I think LC will gradually shift focus from a CT-oriented discussion to one that is more focused on the legitimate problems with the 9/11 investigation process. If they're smart, that's what they'll do, anyway.

They are already paving the way for that with all of this rhetoric about "hey! we're only asking questions...." and "it's the government's responsibility to provide the answers!"

Of course, I'm listening to the interview you linked to earlier, and now I'm not so sure. He sounds completely off his rocker. It's probably even odds that LC3 will be even crazier.

[hellaeon]

I sent Dylan Avery an email today:

Awesome, be sure its done at a neutral setting within a proper debate environment. Of course you would, but just so this freak of humanity does not think he can just talk over you.

A point by point rebuttal would be gold.
Very worthwhile.

Have media there! You could even call upon experts - but be sure its allowed. Imagine the experts lining up for you.

Im sure we could raise cash if they wanted fees!

Gravy, you are da mang.

Seriously - great work.

[Gravy]

You know that great TV show "Connections" with James Burke? How about "Loose Connections" with Dylan Avery? Why be limited to 9/11? Syndication, baby! (As long as I get a producer credit.)

[geggy]

Sorry to disappoint you but rennie's a different person. This name is the one and only name I use to post comments on the net.

Power of christ compels you
Power of christ compels you
Power of christ compels you

http://www.archive.org/details/BrianMichelsTAKEBACK911

[senorpogo]

Of course, I'm listening to the interview you linked to earlier, and now I'm not so sure. He sounds completely off his rocker. It's probably even odds that LC3 will be even crazier.

Even if they do go the respectable route, will they actually do any of original interviews? Or will it be another 90-minute cut-and-paste job? In short, will it provide any new information at all?

By the way, I'll be in Vegas later this month and - assuming I can find a place taking bets on LC3 - I'll be placing my savings "even crazier".

[senorpogo]

You know that great TV show "Connections" with James Burke? How about "Loose Connections" with Dylan Avery? Why be limited to 9/11? Syndication, baby! (As long as I get a producer credit.)

I've been thinking about that show for the past week. Man, that was some awesome television.

[Gravy]

Sorry to disappoint you but rennie's a different person. This name is the one and only name I use to post comments on the net.

Power of christ compels you
Power of christ compels you
Power of christ compels you

http://www.archive.org/details/BrianMichelsTAKEBACK911
geggy, I assume that you've popped up because you're prepared to prove me a liar. Here I am. Go right ahead.

[geggy]

Gravy! You could join this debate...

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/DebatePressRelease8May2006.html

[hellaeon]

[silly mode]

http://members.aol.com/TheMetalKing/CommandoCamouflage.jpg
Gravy: Come on Avery... throw away the chicken sh*t theory, you don't just want the publicity, you want to brainwash the suckers, then look me in the eye, and see whats going on in there when you do it, thats what you want to do, right?

Avery: I can debate you Gravy!

Gravy: Come on, let reality go, just between you and me, don't deprive yourself of some pleasure, come on Avery, lets party!

Avery: I can debate you, I don't need facts hahaha, I DON'T NEED THE FACTS!

Avery: I don't need logic Gravy... I can debate you... I DON'T NEED NO LOGIC!

Avery: AND I'LL DEBATE YOU NOW!

http://www.badmovies.org/othermovies/commando/commando6.jpg

[/silly mode]

[senorpogo]

Gravy! You could join this debate...

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/DebatePressRelease8May2006.html

Glad to see they've fulfilled the 9/11 CT quota for structural engineers.

[shuize]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There's nothing like the internet to give schizophrenics a public forum.

[Pardalis]

Sorry to disappoint you but rennie's a different person. This name is the one and only name I use to post comments on the net.

Power of christ compels you
Power of christ compels you
Power of christ compels you


geggy Boy! You're back!! And more insane than ever. GREAT!:)

[hellaeon]

am I missing something

what the hell is that power of christ crap about

someone enlighten me

[Pardalis]

Just wanted to point out that people like Hovind fire off so many rounds, it can be a bit difficult to dodge and return fire. Best of luck!

It really amazes me how Gravy and the others dodge these insane comments while keeping their cool. They're a special breed.

[Gravy]

Gravy! You could join this debate...

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/DebatePressRelease8May2006.html
geggy, you called me a liar. Please prove it, apologize, or go away.

[Pardalis]

So geggy, any new info about the fake-collapse-from-the-top?

[Pardalis]

The whole way Avery is handling his film is peculiar. Ordinarely, filmmakers will wait before the film is complete before sending it out to the world. So why a third revised version???

[bob_kark]

It really amazes me how Gravy and the others dodge these insane comments while keeping their cool. They're a special breed.

I admit, some of my posts are a bit out there, but really, insane?

Anyway, I agree, it appears difficult. However, if you listen to many of these debates, you can see what tools are effective and how the woo mindset really works. There's a balance between pressing the point when you know you have them and backing off and insisting upon evidence once they start grasping at straws. I'm not that great myself as I don't have the time to research all of the information*, but I've listened to a few debates where some have appeared to perfect the art.

* I mainly post at work where I do have a bit of free time. Unfortunately, my internet access is limited so I'm unable to research a good portion of the information while working.

[Pardalis]

I admit, some of my posts are a bit out there, but really, insane?

Oh no! I didn't mean you! I meant the posters at Lc forum!:o :o

[Gravy]

Oh no! I didn't mean you! I meant the posters at Lc forum!:o :o
If this WERE the LC forum, the argument about who meant what and who is correct would last for the rest of the day. Those silly deluminati.

[Gravy]

Anyway, I agree, it appears difficult. However, if you listen to many of these debates, you can see what tools are effective and how the woo mindset really works. There's a balance between pressing the point when you know you have them and backing off and insisting upon evidence once they start grasping at straws. I'm not that great myself as I don't have the time to research all of the information*, but I've listened to a few debates where some have appeared to perfect the art.
It's good advice. I did say that the debate would be limited to the claims made in "Loose Change." I'm not prepared to get into a debate about the Rothschilds or the Black Pope.

[Regnad Kcin]

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/DebatePressRelease8May2006.htmlThat's a panel of debunking experts? Saints preserve us.

Hey, geggy, if your "daughter" ever needs an operation, give me a call. I used to watch M*A*S*H all the time!

[Hutch]

Gravy, first my congratulations on the 'put up or shut up' debate request. Hopefully dubfan or some other non-banned poster can get it into the LC Forum so it can be read there before it is deleted.

I don't know enough to do the debate you plan on, but I am willing to help out with a few dollars if you need it for rental/equipment/etc. PM me if I can help out.

You do good work here. Although it is still 8 months away, you might want to consider submitting a paper for The Amazing Meeting 5 in Jan 2007 and applying for a scholarship when they become available. RSLancaster presented his findings on Kaz in Jan 06 to good acclaim and this seems to be a natural (and still under the mainstream radar).

Soldier on and we readers will keep the phalanx together.

[WildCat]

That's a panel of debunking experts? Saints preserve us.
I've noticed that any organization that has "truth" in its name dispenses nothing of the sort.

[Gravy]

That's a panel of debunking experts? Saints preserve us.
This is too funny. They call themselves "Team Liberty!" Well, nobody the "scholars" invited from the "official" side has accepted. They have nothing to gain by doing so, but I'd still love to see the faces of the structural engineers when Judy Wood, the dental engineer, explains how the entire falling mass of the buildings should have stopped at each floor.

[Pardalis]

I'd still love to see the faces of the structural engineers when Judy Wood, the dental engineer, explains how the entire falling mass of the buildings should have stopped at each floor.

Maybe the Cts have built themselves an ivory tower?

[geggy]

-I'm 100 percent certain the nist, sept 11 commissioners and supporters of the official story will fold like wet tortillas after being offered to debate with team liberty. If the bush admin had blocked inquiry into nsa spying/torture scandals, why in the world would they openly debate on this matter? It's just as big of a fantasy as oprah discussing sept 11 publicly, since that her magazine is owned by the hearst corporation, who also owns popular mechanics and the history channel, the big "supporters" of the official story.

-Power of christ compels you to understand the family guy reference.

-Sorry pardelis, no work for me today. Didn't you hear about the flooding? It's all bush's fault.

[Regnad Kcin]

...Sorry pardelis, no work for me today...So, I forget, what do you do for a living?

[Regnad Kcin]

-I'm 100 percent certain the nist, sept 11 commissioners and supporters of the official story will fold like wet tortillas after being offered to debate with team liberty...Since you are "100 percent [sic] certain," what then is Team Liberty's (snort) proof, their evidence? Point by point.

I myself am 100% certain you don't know.

[Polaris]

Actually, I'm sure you'll find lots of people who will argue that the government did not know there would be an attack. What are those people called? HISTORIANS!

Did I mention I really, really find conspiracy theorists to be condescending [rule8]'s?

I used to work with a die-hard conspiracy nut - 9/11, OKC, Pearl Harbor, JFK, USS Liberty - all done by the Globalists/Illuminati/Zionists (he was particularly fond of blaming the Zionists - but he'd get angry if I asked called his conspirators the Five Jew Bankers) for the bettering of Israel/the Neo-Cons.
He also had a thing for junk science (this was a guy who still believed in the ether, and that cold fusion was possible).

When I mentioned that quote of FDR's, upon hearing of the Japanese attack, where he asked if it was "the Philippines?" - he had a ready-made answer: "Oh that was just plausible deniability."

There's no winning with these people.

[aggle-rithm]

-Power of christ compels you to understand the family guy reference.



...or maybe the Exorcist...?

Or is that movie too much culture for you?

[Polaris]

So there was some anticipation in the Government that there would be an attack. What was NOT KNOWN was the size of the attack, the target and the date--which are mildly important when it comes to conspiracies.

Not to mention the torpedo technology dropped by the Japanese planes into Pearl Harbor didn't exist until the Japs invented an airborne torpedo that could be dropped into low-draft water. How exactly was FDR supposed to know an attack on Pearl Harbor was coming when the weapons needed to actually sink the moored ships weren't battle-tested UNTIL Pearl Harbor? (If I remember correctly, 16" battleship shells were converted into aerial bombs for use against the Pacific Fleet as well).

[Regnad Kcin]

geggy, I know I, nor anyone else, is going to draw you out. That's because you're a fraud, a lightweight.

You present no proof for your claim(s).

You present no evidence.

You present no coherent, verifiable narrative for the events of 9/11 as you see them.

Your fondness for raising questions and posting Internet links notwithstanding, what's the point? This is a forum dedicated to critical thinking. You don't belong.

[hellaeon]

R Kcin, All jokes aside, that is exactly correct. At times this thread has certainly been derailed by snide and silly remarks, but in a nutshell, that is something that is seemingly missed. This forum is unique on the internet as its not only frequented by well trained professionals of many fields of expertise, but also by those on the absolute opposite scale.

I had a convo with the lady last night about all of this stuff and we both remarked what kind of psychological impact must be created to cause someone to go the way of the average CT.

I always will maintain its a belief system like a religion and that to admit themselves as wrong and learn from their mistakes is somehow overweighed by the need to belong to a group. If I ever was to suddenly change my future and study psychology, I would love to study this CT phenomena.

[Regnad Kcin]

Well thanks, friend. I agree with your thoughts re: the religious aspect of these beliefs. (And I enjoyed post #3924.)

By the way, which is you in the avatar?

[Gravy]

Your fondness for raising questions and posting Internet links notwithstanding, what's the point? This is a forum dedicated to critical thinking. You don't belong.
And he video he linked to states, several times, that Al Qaeda is responsible for 9/11. What a maroon.

[hellaeon]

Well thanks, friend. I agree with your thoughts re: the religious aspect of these beliefs. (And I enjoyed post #3924.)

By the way, which is you in the avatar?

im the one in the foreground, the background guy is Nergal, singer/guitarist of the mighty Behemoth!

man - that final fight scene in commando is so damn funny. Even that movie is more realistic then the 9/11 CT.

I mean who does not want to be like either of those blokes in the movie?
Arnie because even with your limited english, you still have the best one liners and a body the size of an elephant...and then bennet...I mean cruise to work in a limo wearing chainmail.....classic!

This has been one of my favourite threads. Its like the million dollar challenge, except there are multiple applicants of the same one crazy ideal.
Mostly though as it addressed something that needed to be addressed and did it with proper logic and reasoning and im better educated for it.

[Mercutio]

-I'm 100 percent certain the nist, sept 11 commissioners and supporters of the official story will fold like wet tortillas after being offered to debate with team liberty. [snip]
No, you aren't. You don't believe that any more than you believe the rest of the tripe you pretend to. But unless I miss my guess, you are having fun with it.

-Sorry pardelis, no work for me today. Didn't you hear about the flooding? It's all bush's fault.Be safe, geggy--they are evacuating people all over the place. If the firefighters tell you to get the family and go, don't pretend they are part of a global conspiracy out to get you. The flooding is part of the real world, not one of the games you are playing here. Be safe, geggy.

[Pardalis]

I've just listened to the radio show featuring Dylan Avery that was posted, and all I got to say is wow, this guy doesn't know what mess he's getting himself in!

Sooner or later, Avery is going to have a law suit on his hands. What he's doing, and what his films are doing, are dangerously close to diffamation of character, at least, from my view. Were not talking about a non-consequential mistake due to youthfull immaturity anymore, we're talking about serious criminal lawsuits. I wonder how long it's going to take for the other most high-profiled CTs to get their asses sued. You can't hide behind the first amendment forever, these guys are actually accusing people of corruption and mass murder. You can't hide behind the "I was just asking questions" rhethoric, some day you have to take responsability for what you say and face the consequences.

[CurtC]

I went a-Googlin' to see if I could find any talk shows that have Dylan Avery scheduled to be on. One of the first links I checked out was this one: http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/maxshows/index.php

He's going to be on Wednesday this week.

So then I look up at the top of the page to see what font of knowledge was having Dylan on, and I see this: "Read an interview with JZ Knight... from your relationships to your possibilities!"

I wonder if the 35000 year old warrior spirit Ramtha is going to interview him. You'd think that someone who really thought that his government killed 3000 people, and he has the evidence showing it, would be talking to reporters, structural engineers, firefighters, but Dylan is talking to... wacko nutjobs.

[Abbyas]

I'm sure this has been said many times before, but why is it that so many people that demand you question the government get so angry when you question them.

A few months ago I ran into these people at the WTC (they have sinced been asked to stay away, understandably as it is a grave sight). I got into it with them and they grew increasingly angry with me. When I suggested that they look at this scientifically, I was told that science does so much damage.

My theory is that it's along the lines of christians that can't wait for the armagaddeon. They want so badly for this to be true and when the hammer falls, you'll all be sorry.

It's also an excuse to avoid real change. Why should I try to better our society when it's all so corrupt?

[Gravy]

I've just listened to the radio show featuring Dylan Avery that was posted, and all I got to say is wow, this guy doesn't know what mess he's getting himself in!

Sooner or later, Avery is going to have a law suit on his hands. What he's doing, and what his films are doing, are dangerously close to diffamation of character, at least, from my view. Were not talking about a non-consequential mistake due to youthfull immaturity anymore, we're talking about serious criminal lawsuits. I wonder how long it's going to take for the other most high-profiled CTs to get their asses sued. You can't hide behind the first amendment forever, these guys are actually accusing people of corruption and mass murder. You can't hide behind the "I was just asking questions" rhethoric, some day you have to take responsability for what you say and face the consequences.
I only listened to a bit of it. Does he accuse specific people of specific acts? That would be a big improvement, if he had evidence to back it up.

[Regnad Kcin]

...A few months ago I ran into these people at the WTC (they have sinced been asked to stay away, understandably as it is a grave sight...I'm generally not one to correct message board typos. However, your misspelling of "gravesite" is nevertheless all too true; Ground Zero is a "grave sight."

[Pardalis]

I only listened to a bit of it. Does he accuse specific people of specific acts? That would be a big improvement, if he had evidence to back it up.

No one specifically... so far. But it's only a matter of time. His insinuations eventually are going to point the finger to specific individuals. I wonder what Silverstein might be thinking of Loose Change.

I wonder also if there is an equivalent of "diffamation of character" to companies and organisations?

[NobbyNobbs]

Looks like one of the admins from LC was banned from their forum for banning people. I don't know how to post URLs yet, but perhaps someone here will find it. Pablo let me know.

[OMGturt1es]

OH OH OH!

this is getting even more insane...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4245

enjoy :)

[OMGturt1es]

:o

I HAD THE FIRST POST ON PAGE 100!!

[Regnad Kcin]

I've just listened to the radio show featuring Dylan Avery that was posted, and all I got to say is wow, this guy doesn't know what mess he's getting himself in!

Sooner or later, Avery is going to have a law suit on his hands. What he's doing, and what his films are doing, are dangerously close to diffamation of character, at least, from my view. Were not talking about a non-consequential mistake due to youthfull immaturity anymore, we're talking about serious criminal lawsuits. I wonder how long it's going to take for the other most high-profiled CTs to get their asses sued. You can't hide behind the first amendment forever, these guys are actually accusing people of corruption and mass murder. You can't hide behind the "I was just asking questions" rhethoric, some day you have to take responsability for what you say and face the consequences.I touched on this in post #3900 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1639839&postcount=3900).

In light of Gravy's "Loose Change" analysis, continuing to promote the claptrap of that video as factual is not only irresponsible, it is willfully libelous. May Mr. Avery, as well as others involved, enjoy learning a lesson.

[Pardalis]

:o

I HAD THE FIRST POST ON PAGE 100!!

CHEERS!:D

[Gravy]

I went a-Googlin' to see if I could find any talk shows that have Dylan Avery scheduled to be on. One of the first links I checked out was this one: http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/maxshows/index.php

He's going to be on Wednesday this week.

So then I look up at the top of the page to see what font of knowledge was having Dylan on, and I see this: "Read an interview with JZ Knight... from your relationships to your possibilities!"

I wonder if the 35000 year old warrior spirit Ramtha is going to interview him. You'd think that someone who really thought that his government killed 3000 people, and he has the evidence showing it, would be talking to reporters, structural engineers, firefighters, but Dylan is talking to... wacko nutjobs.
...And the following two Wednesdays will feature Bermas and Rowe! Oh, me! Oh, My! (If anyone doesn't know about JZ Knight, she's the cult leader who made the movie "What the bleep do we know?") So, is it a step forwards, or backwards, to go from being interviewed by a Holocaust denier/moon hoaxer to being interviewed by the follower of a 35,000-year-old warrior from Atlantis?

The makng of a woo: baloney included!
And so when I was ready — in 1977 in my kitchen, in February, in Tacoma, Washington — I was playing with some pyramids with at that time my husband-to-be, who was a dentist. And we were making pyramids because we hiked in the Olympic and Cascade mountain ranges and the rage at that time was that you could put all this food under pyramids and it would dehydrate. So we had baloney and wine and sandwiches and cheese and milk; you know, we had pyramids all over the house, and you really couldn’t walk into the bathroom.

I put one on my head and I thought, well, if this will do this to baloney, what will it do with my brain? So I put it on my head and started laughing. And I picked it up and there was this glitter at the end of my little kitchen — this glitter, like you would take a handful and turn it loose through a ray of sunshine — and there were these lights happening at the end of my kitchen, and I was just mesmerized. And there appeared this seven-foot-tall entity who was as big as life and the most beautiful thing I had ever seen in my life. And he had this big beautiful smile on his face. He had long fingers and long hands, black dancing eyes.

[Abbyas]

Apparantly, every sunday at St. Mark's church (a performance space really) in NYC is 9/11 truth series day.

Anyhow on May 21, they are having a discussion on why the towers couldn't have pancake collapsed.

I wanna go armed with gravy's files. Where else can I find solid physics info with regards to the collapse?

[Pardalis]

I only listened to a bit of it. Does he accuse specific people of specific acts? That would be a big improvement, if he had evidence to back it up.

But he does seem to indicate that "Loose Change 3" is going to have a more mainstream distribution (theatrical limited release ?). So eventually, everybody will have seen it and some people are going to feel accused.

[dubfan]

No one specifically... so far. But it's only a matter of time. His insinuations eventually are going to point the finger to specific individuals. I wonder what Silverstein might be thinking of Loose Change.

I wonder also if there is an equivalent of "diffamation of character" to companies and organisations?

If I were Debra Burlingame I'd be pretty pissed off. Dylan pretty much accuses her husband Charles of being the pilot of the 757 that hit the Pentagon. He also misstates Burlingame's service record.

Oh wait, except a 757 didn't hit the Pentagon. So what was Burlingame's role in this again? Another one of those baffling cases where one conspiracy "fact" doesn't quite seem to fit in with the larger conspiracy narrative.

[dubfan]

Apparantly, every sunday at St. Mark's church (a performance space really) in NYC is 9/11 truth series day.

Anyhow on May 21, they are having a discussion on why the towers couldn't have pancake collapsed.

I wanna go armed with gravy's files. Where else can I find solid physics info with regards to the collapse?

IMO, the best (by far) report on the physics of the collapse is by a guy named Greening, linked at 911myths.com. He actually went thru the math of the NIST report and found some inconsistencies and contradictions. Interesting that the Loosers are so suspicous of anything official that they won't even read this material to find out about the legitimate problems with the NIST report. Greening thinks NIST is wrong, but not in a way that helps the Loosers. He thinks you didn't even need a fire. The damage to the structural steel and transfer of potenial energy to shear energy onto the remaining columns was enough to cause failures in the floor structures at or near where the impact was.

Good, solid, clear writing, and nothing harder than high school algebra/trig and undergrad physics.

http://www.911myths.com/html/other_contributions.html

[Pardalis]

If I were Debra Burlingame I'd be pretty pissed off. Dylan pretty much accuses her husband Charles of being the pilot of the 757 that hit the Pentagon. He also misstates Burlingame's service record.

Oh wait, except a 757 didn't hit the Pentagon. So what was Burlingame's role in this again? Another one of those baffling cases where one conspiracy "fact" doesn't quite seem to fit in with the larger conspiracy narrative.

That's the beauty of just asking questions isn't it? You don't have to worry about making the big picture have consistency. After all, like he says, it's the government's job to answer to these questions!

He's saying almost half of the highjackers are still alive today, so it seems to him that:

a) these planes have piloted themselves into these buildings (drone technology)
b) the planes were piloted by government payed kamikazes (army personnel?)
c) the unaccounted for highjackers were indeed the pilots, wich doesn't explain how they got to overcome the passengers and crew by themselves (remember all the other highjackers are still alive).
d) the American pilots for some reason piloted their own planes into the buildings

Avery is eventually going to have to decide wich theory he's is willing to stand for. But then again, I'm sure he won't.

[Abbyas]

Good, solid, clear writing, and nothing harder than high school algebra/trig and undergrad physics.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

[dubfan]

OH OH OH!

this is getting even more insane...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4245

enjoy :)

This is my favorite LC crazy thread right now:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4212

It's got everything: Goatse, the "a plane hit the Pentagon" vs. "no plane hit the Pentagon" CT squabble, a legitimate 9/11 "mystery", a FOIA request, and actual information that moves the 9/11 story forward.

[Regnad Kcin]

Apparantly, every sunday at St. Mark's church (a performance space really) in NYC is 9/11 truth series day.

Anyhow on May 21, they are having a discussion on why the towers couldn't have pancake collapsed...Be sure to raise your hand and, when recognized, ask who among the "discussers" is a structural engineer.

[hellaeon]

Looks like one of the admins from LC was banned from their forum for banning people. I don't know how to post URLs yet, but perhaps someone here will find it. Pablo let me know.

haha! please tell me its true! Dissent in the ranks!

The little doubters over there like squibs going off everywhere. Arguements exploding all over the place. The forum collapsing!

Controlled demolition!

And the evil globalist neo-cons led by Gravy are behind it!

[senorpogo]

...or maybe the Exorcist...?

Or is that movie too much culture for you?

He's also a big fan of Kelly Osbourne's "Papa don't preach".
The girl sure can write a song.

[EGarrett]

I saw that this thread had something like 2,000 replies and I thought "now there's NO way JREF members could possibly be arguing this Loose Change crap."

Apparently, the thread is just people making fun of others on other forums arguing it. I love this place.

[brodski]

I saw that this thread had something like 2,000 replies and I thought "now there's NO way JREF members could possibly be arguing this Loose Change crap."

Apparently, the thread is just people making fun of others on other forums arguing it. I love this place.
there are a few "loosers" and other assorted CTers who sign up here periodically to make fools of themselves.

[chipmunk stew]

I saw that this thread had something like 2,000 replies and I thought "now there's NO way JREF members could possibly be arguing this Loose Change crap."

Apparently, the thread is just people making fun of others on other forums arguing it. I love this place.It's even more than that. It's a hurricane of indignation and stinging counter-arguments, and the launchpad of an all-out assault on the makers of the video and other promoters of this 9/11 CT garbage.

[WildCat]

He's also a big fan of Kelly Osbourne's "Papa don't preach".
The girl sure can write a song.
Madonna totally copied Kelly Osbourne!

It had to be said. :D

[geggy]

No...the "power of christ" reference was from family guy. It's just funnier when peter griffin said it. It was in the episode which chris started speaking ebonic hip hop language and peter thought he had been possessed, so he pulled over his car to start cranking up biblical references and spray holy water on chris to get rid of the blackness in him. Just like I think you guys have been possessed by believing that the offcial account of sept 11 is true, therefore you are possessed by the government.

[Ducky]

Just like I think you guys have been possessed by believing that the offcial account of sept 11 is true, therefore you are possessed by the government.




...Oh yeah. You have a really accurate impression of this forum. Really.

Why don't you peruse the Politics subforum and repost that? See how far that gets you.

[NoZed Avenger]

Just like I think you guys have been possessed by believing that the offcial account of sept 11 is true, therefore you are possessed by the government.


To quote Phil:

"If ya gotta 'splain 'em, they don't go in the act, kid."

[Pardalis]

So geggy, will you at least answer one of my previous questions?

- How does a fake collapse from the top is supposed to work?

- What constitutes a coincidence to you (in the large sense)

Pick one.

[chipmunk stew]

Hey guys, maybe it really was a cruise missile that hit the Pentagon.
No, really. Look:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4069&view=findpost&p=4364370

[bob_kark]

Oh no! I didn't mean you! I meant the posters at Lc forum!:o :o

Sorry, I should have peppered that comment with some smilies.:D

[chipmunk stew]

Insight into 9/11 CT psychological motivation:
Welcome, to the 9/11 Truth Movement, where you can once again become the active historical participant for progressive change and historical transformation, that you were meant to be all along!http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3865&view=findpost&p=4310577

[bob_kark]

It's good advice. I did say that the debate would be limited to the claims made in "Loose Change." I'm not prepared to get into a debate about the Rothschilds or the Black Pope.

You can always state that the debate is limited to the field of Loose Change. However, woos have a tendency to claim you're avoiding the issue when you don't answer why Colombus named his ship the Santa Maria rather than the Santa Anna. Another favorite is jumping ship midtopic, going from flight 93 to the volcano in the WTC. The problem is, I don't even think most of them realize what they're doing, they're so unfamiliar with a traditional debate format that they're unable to understand concepts like staying on topic, providing facts, avoiding fallacies, etc...

[chipmunk stew]

I sent Dylan Avery an email today:"charliebean" posted your challenge on the LC forum, and "DemolitionCrew" responded:
Besides being someone NEW, WHO ARE YOU DUDE?

I ask that to say...what would Dylan or any member from the LC Crew have to gain by debating you?????

So what it would be held in NYC and the reference to it being the media capital of the world...in my opinion that only means the tabloid capital of the world. Considering the fact that we have NO REAL MEDIA anymore (topic for a different thread).

So who are you and why would this debate draw such attention???? What is there to gain from LC's perspective???

More importantly, are you that ignorant and one track in your thinking that you want to debate something you have followed for on a few weeks?

Have you event read the Kean Whitewash report?

Are you that hell bent on not finding out what really happened that day?

I would think that considering we are talking about 3,000 people getting killed that would be something ALL would want to challenge the accounts of the events of 9/11.

LC2 doesn't provide for what did happen...it questions the logic of the official story, tears it to shreads and along the way gives alternative explanations for what may have happened. These explanations are not conclusive...they all call in the end for a real investigation.

Have you gone through the site? Did you see the mounds of research? Have you taken the time to do your own homework? Well of course you haven't...you are too busy worried about disproving people who actually have your back. People who are actually (no matter what) are going to continue to fight on your behalf to make sure we are diefinitively made aware of the true perpetrators and those people are brought to justice.

Did you realize that you are also asking to debate people who want to make sure these monsters that committed these acts never do it again?

You might want to answer these questions then get a reality check my friend.

I would think it would only benefit LC to debate someone from the Kean coverup commision or some of the top Whitehouse officials. I can think of no better person than Paul Wolfowitcz but we know he wouldn't put himself in that position (better plead the fifth Paul)!!!!http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4032&view=findpost&p=4474002

[aggle-rithm]

I've just listened to the radio show featuring Dylan Avery that was posted, and all I got to say is wow, this guy doesn't know what mess he's getting himself in!

Sooner or later, Avery is going to have a law suit on his hands. What he's doing, and what his films are doing, are dangerously close to diffamation of character, at least, from my view. Were not talking about a non-consequential mistake due to youthfull immaturity anymore, we're talking about serious criminal lawsuits. I wonder how long it's going to take for the other most high-profiled CTs to get their asses sued. You can't hide behind the first amendment forever, these guys are actually accusing people of corruption and mass murder. You can't hide behind the "I was just asking questions" rhethoric, some day you have to take responsability for what you say and face the consequences.

Perhaps he is under the impression that because he is not really profiting from it (wink, wink) that he is immune to charges of slander/libel (depending on whether you consider Loose Change "published" or not).

That would be a mistaken impression.

[bob_kark]

OH OH OH!

this is getting even more insane...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4245

enjoy :)

Oh... My... Dog...

For those of you who missed out on this link:


It should be noted that as the build up to the Iraq war was underway, this sniper at one point during his several week rampage in the Wash. DC area had the following statistics:

9: Total killed
11: Total hit
1: Miss

(I.e.: 9/11/01)

Supernatural?

Nah.

CIA psych job on Washington DC and the U.S. population during a pre-war build-up?

Who knows.

Muhammed: Sniper case reeks of CIA

Judge: Whatever

According to a report on ABC affiliate WJLA at 6pm ET, a CIA employee will be sitting on the jury. Alleged DC Beltway sniper John Muhammed said that "there were more CIA involved this case than water in the ocean." The judge overruled Muhammed and the friendly courthouse reporter Alisa Parenti assured the audience that there of course was no CIA involvement.

http://www.total411.info/

Its like some twisted game. "I was driving to work the other day and my mileage went to 91101! The CIA must have tampered with my car!! Only a few days ago it said 90210!! Shannon Daugherty must have tampered with my car!!"

[aggle-rithm]

If I were Debra Burlingame I'd be pretty pissed off. Dylan pretty much accuses her husband Charles of being the pilot of the 757 that hit the Pentagon. He also misstates Burlingame's service record.

Oh wait, except a 757 didn't hit the Pentagon. So what was Burlingame's role in this again? Another one of those baffling cases where one conspiracy "fact" doesn't quite seem to fit in with the larger conspiracy narrative.

There's a larger conspiracy narrative?!? ;)

[chipmunk stew]

Looks like one of the admins from LC was banned from their forum for banning people. I don't know how to post URLs yet, but perhaps someone here will find it. Pablo let me know.Was it this one?
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3839&view=findpost&p=4445153

[aggle-rithm]

He's also a big fan of Kelly Osbourne's "Papa don't preach".
The girl sure can write a song.

I'd have given him partial credit if he said it came from "Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me". That at least played in theaters.

[aggle-rithm]

No...the "power of christ" reference was from family guy. It's just funnier when peter griffin said it. It was in the episode which chris started speaking ebonic hip hop language and peter thought he had been possessed, so he pulled over his car to start cranking up biblical references and spray holy water on chris to get rid of the blackness in him. Just like I think you guys have been possessed by believing that the offcial account of sept 11 is true, therefore you are possessed by the government.

Oh, right... The Exorcist copied from Family Guy, and the producers covered up the fact by cleverly releasing the movie thirty years earlier.

ETA: By the way, it's not really that funny when you say it. Sort of creepy, actually. Just thought I'd mention it.

[Darat]

"charliebean" posted your challenge on the LC forum, and "DemolitionCrew" responded:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4032&view=findpost&p=4474002


So what are they hiding if they won't debate with "us"????





:D

[aggle-rithm]

:o

I HAD THE FIRST POST ON PAGE 100!!

Oh.

You're still using that base 10 numbering system, aren't you?

How quaint.

I've been using base 13 for years, so page 100 is meaningless to me... ;)

[chipmunk stew]

No...the "power of christ" reference was from family guy. It's just funnier when peter griffin said it. It was in the episode which chris started speaking ebonic hip hop language and peter thought he had been possessed, so he pulled over his car to start cranking up biblical references and spray holy water on chris to get rid of the blackness in him. Just like I think you guys have been possessed by believing that the offcial account of sept 11 is true, therefore you are possessed by the government.This is actually a pretty good analogy, if you think about it. Both Peter and geggy have a paranoid fear of a mind-controlling phantom, and call upon deluded techniques based on fanatical beliefs to try to purge it.

[chipmunk stew]

So what are they hiding if they won't debate with "us"????

:D:) I wonder what Roxdog/conspiracybeliever would have to say about this?

[dubfan]

Insight into 9/11 CT psychological motivation:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3865&view=findpost&p=4310577

Yes, this is what Lee Harris calls a "fantasy ideology" -- people buy into it because it makes them a player in a larger drama. He wrote an interesting article for Policy Review that makes the case that this is the basic dynamic behind many extremist movements, including Al Qaeda.

My first encounter with this particular kind of fantasy occurred when I was in college in the late sixties. A friend of mine and I got into a heated argument. Although we were both opposed to the Vietnam War, we discovered that we differed considerably on what counted as permissible forms of anti-war protest. To me the point of such protest was simple — to turn people against the war. Hence anything that was counterproductive to this purpose was politically irresponsible and should be severely censured. My friend thought otherwise; in fact, he was planning to join what by all accounts was to be a massively disruptive demonstration in Washington, and which in fact became one.

My friend did not disagree with me as to the likely counterproductive effects of such a demonstration. Instead, he argued that this simply did not matter. His answer was that even if it was counterproductive, even if it turned people against war protesters, indeed even if it made them more likely to support the continuation of the war, he would still participate in the demonstration and he would do so for one simple reason — because it was, in his words, good for his soul.

What I saw as a political act was not, for my friend, any such thing. It was not aimed at altering the minds of other people or persuading them to act differently. Its whole point was what it did for him.

And what it did for him was to provide him with a fantasy — a fantasy, namely, of taking part in the revolutionary struggle of the oppressed against their oppressors. By participating in a violent anti-war demonstration, he was in no sense aiming at coercing conformity with his view — for that would still have been a political objective. Instead, he took his part in order to confirm his ideological fantasy of marching on the right side of history, of feeling himself among the elect few who stood with the angels of historical inevitability. Thus, when he lay down in front of hapless commuters on the bridges over the Potomac, he had no interest in changing the minds of these commuters, no concern over whether they became angry at the protesters or not. They were there merely as props, as so many supernumeraries in his private psychodrama. The protest for him was not politics, but theater; and the significance of his role lay not in the political ends his actions might achieve, but rather in their symbolic value as ritual. In short, he was acting out a fantasy.

Link to the complete article: http://www.policyreview.org/AUG02/harris.html

[milesalpha]

Not to mention the torpedo technology dropped by the Japanese planes into Pearl Harbor didn't exist until the Japs invented an airborne torpedo that could be dropped into low-draft water. How exactly was FDR supposed to know an attack on Pearl Harbor was coming when the weapons needed to actually sink the moored ships weren't battle-tested UNTIL Pearl Harbor? (If I remember correctly, 16" battleship shells were converted into aerial bombs for use against the Pacific Fleet as well).

The picky historian is back,

To be accurate the technology did exist well before Pearl Harbor. The Japanese had only added wooden fins to their torpedoes for the attack. Pearl Harbor was based on the similar British attack on the Italian fleet at Taranto in 1940, which proved the viability of shallow water torpedo attacks. To me, the important fact to remember is the nature of the navy leaders of virtually every nation at the time, they still believed in the big gun platform, the battleship, as the primary capital ship. There were few proponents of carrier warfare by 1941 (including Nagumo, leader of the Japanese strike force). Even fewer believed it would be possible to strike a base such as Pearl Harbor with any effectiveness. Now we could believe this was a conspiracy or we could simply believe that the admirals were not very forward thinkers, as history has so often proven (i.e the Allied use of tanks in 1940 was straight out of WWI, conspiracy or stupidity?).