Loose Change

[Gravy]

Here are some excerpts from a long email from 911truth.org that was forwarded to me. The comments by the author, Les, are pretty hilarious. "40-foot in diameter fuselage!" Turbulence and dust kicked up by a low-flying jet ="contrails!" "The shoe is on the other foot!" Killer material.

Less funny (pun intended) is the fact that Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy of Air America are pimping this CT stuff. I'll be sending them my comments, and I hope you'll do the same. They have real influence.

THE PENTAGON STORY UNFOLDS

Big news. Air America talk show host, Randi Rhodes, spent 10 minutes or so yesterday afternoon talking about the Pentagon footage of the phantom object which should raise more doubt than certainty. She gave incredible coverage of many aspects of the 9/11 deception. She even posted the video on her site at http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/live/. There are already a lot of posts on her message board.

Here's what Mike Malloy, also of Air America, had to say:

"Well, there you have it, Truthseekers. In response to a lawsuit filed by the right-wing crazies at Judicial Watch, the right-wing crazies at the Department of Defense have released a video showing the moment of impact as a United Airlines jet slams into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. Pardon me while I take a tissue to my glasses and look at this “video” again. [I don't know if the next paragraph is Malloy or Les]

Uh-huh. Indeed. A commercial jet flying, um, what? twenty inches off the ground, maybe? Zips into the Pentagon. Boom. Big ball o’ fire. According to Judicial Watch’s website, the right-wing organization originally filed a Freedom of Information Act request on December 15, 2004, seeking all records pertaining to September 11, 2001, camera recordings of the Pentagon attack from the Sheraton National Hotel, the Nexcomm/Citgo gas station, Pentagon security cameras and the Virginia Department of Transportation. The Department of Defense admitted in a January 26, 2005, letter that it possessed a videotape responsive to Judicial Watch's request. However, the Pentagon refused to release the videotape because it was, "part of an ongoing investigation involving Zacarias Moussaoui."
***
Les:
After nearly 5 years, how are we to believe anything the government shows hasn't been doctored? [Gravy: er, do you mean that it was doctored to not show a missile?]
***
All of these things--the fact that we see no 70 foot high tail, no 40 foot in diameter fuselage but we do see a contrail--add up to proof that a plane DID NOT STRIKE THE PENTAGON.

The shoe is now on the other foot. Only a conspiracy theory nut job could insist that this video is evidence of a plane striking the Pentagon. I would ask such an individual--where is the plane? Why is there that white streak? And wait for the answer. Which would not come. Because there is no reasonable explanation other than to say it was a missile--which does leave a contrail. Because like the Space Shuttle or any other rocket motor propelled device, missiles DO leave contrails.

And please. Tell me why you did not have a Pentagon spokesman to explain where the plane is in the tape. That's the reason they're showing it, putatively, to show the plane hitting the Pentagon. Where is Colin Powell with his pointer? Where's the Pentagon expert to circle the "nose cone" or whatever piece of the plane they claim to have captured on film?
Is anyone here aware of the Pentagon claiming anything about the video just released? Or is Les using less than his full brain power?

Randi Rhodes email: rrhodes@airamericaradio.com
Randi Rhodes Talk Line 866-303-2270

Mike Malloy email: mike@mikemalloy.com
Mike Malloy's producer Kathy Bay: MalloyProducer@aol.com

[Gravy]

Mark Kermode already covered "loose Change" in the Guardian he was not supportive of Avery and co.
Thanks, Brodski. I'll see if he knows.

[Regnad Kcin]

This has reached the level of insanity.

Congratulations, mankind! You never cease to amaze me.

[bob_kark]

This has reached the level of insanity.

Congratulations, mankind! You never cease to amaze me.

You mean just now? I still remember with love and adoration when those mischievous scamps claimed that the towers fell at faster than free fall speeds.

[Blackwell]

I have no idea if this is parody or not (at the end he says he just had his wisdom teeth removed).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4692467109707634632&q=Loose+Change+2

I noticed this video too, Gravy - along with at least one other that appeared to have been created by the same group (at least they both referenced the same website.)
What I find interesting is that these videos came up after typing "loose change 911" into the Google video search field; either these guys are just simply piggy-backing the popularity of the LC vids to promote their site, or they're attempting to force the LC vids out of the top search results page.
It sure would be a shame if someone were to post a video (using the keywords "loose," "change" and "911") of "Dylan Avery" and friends, complete with black t-shirts, renouncing the LC video and apologizing for their shoddy research...

/off to find my video camera and 2 or 3 college-age actors

[fuelair]

I was discussing 911 CTers with my dad and he said that this wasn't like the fact that Bush got all of Osama's family etc etc out of the country right after 9/11. I know this comes from fahrenheit 911 but is this also CT bunk?

Thanks again for all the useful information about this. Given the rabid anti-bush slant of some of my relatives I can expect to come across some of this [rule 8] at an upcoming family event, and it is nice to have the information necessary to shoot down this kind of [rule 8 again].


Other than the conspiracy of Bush Handlers - to prop him up and feed him words he still has trouble with, I don't think anti-Bush is equivalent to C.T. theorist - and I (no surprise ) support your family!!!
But, yes, Bush's people did arrange for and send home not just BinLickins family but a number of other Saudi relations - any number of possible reasons that don't require a conspiracy (paybacks, fear of offending his Saudi pals, tradeoff for better oil cooperation, exhuberant friendliness, being a rectal passage, etc.) Moore is not subtle, but he generally is correct - and this item is widely backed up in news reports.
s

[CurtC]

Mark Kermode already covered "loose Change" in the Guardian he was not supportive of Avery and co. http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,,1749999,00.html
Another lead is Ben Goldacre, who writes the Bad Science (http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/) column at The Guardian. If you've never read that, it's a hoot.

His email is bad.science@guardian.co.uk .

[brodski]

there was a nice piece on the BBCs "newsnight" programme on 9/11 CTs yesterday, you can watch it here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3681938.stm

I would really love to see Dylan Avery interviewed by Jeremy Paxman :D
(for non UK residents Paxman, who hosts Newsnight, has a reputation for being a very incisive, but incredibly vicious interviews, he strikes fear into most politicians who come up against him, he is not in the clip I linked to)

[brodski]

Another lead is Ben Goldacre, who writes the Bad Science (http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/) column at The Guardian. If you've never read that, it's a hoot.

His email is bad.science@guardian.co.uk .
I was thinking that, but Ben is much more interested in the "science" aspects of skepticism, I don't think that CTs would really fall within his journalistic portfolio, but you never know. And yes it is a fantastic column (it's where I first heard about the JEFF too).

ETA Ben posts fuller versions of the "bad science" column as a blog here ( www.badscience.net (http://www.badscience.net) ) he has a forum as well.

[Kopji]

Ugh. I watched about 10 minutes of the film before I had to turn it off. (Comes in best on Google video). Watching hundreds of people die over and over in various slow motion angles to bad techno music is too much to relive.

The whole "movie" seems to be based on the premise that the high speed impacts don't look like what they expected. So therefore all these thousands of other experts are wrong. The dead are not really dead, or were gassed in some twisted and more diabolical version of the faked moon landing. The planes shot missiles into the WTC before impact...

I suppose that in a free country people can pretty much say what they want, but you people who eat this crap up as truth: you are not only woo's, you are fundamentally IMMORAL. It is this kind of ideo-religion cultivated thinking that causes genocides, riots over cartoons, death sentences for thinking wrong things. You are the same as them.

If nothing else, the "impact to music" is a sign of mental abnormality. The producers are not thinking right. There is something wrong with the brains of people who can show hundreds of deaths to cheery la la la la laaaa music.

[Gravy]

It sure would be a shame if someone were to post a video (using the keywords "loose," "change" and "911") of "Dylan Avery" and friends, complete with black t-shirts, renouncing the LC video and apologizing for their shoddy research...

/off to find my video camera and 2 or 3 college-age actors
Mnyuck, mnyuck!

[Gravy]

I came across this account of a failure of a large, unprotected steel truss system after a blaze of 30 minutes. It's Chicago's McCormick Place exhibition hall fire of 1967. A very different type of building than the WTC, but interesting. Steel get hot. Steel loose strength. Roof cave in.
http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/disasters/mccormick_fire.html

[Shrinker]

Mark Kermode already covered "loose Change" in the Guardian he was not supportive of Avery and co. http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,,1749999,00.html

The guardian does use a lot of freelancers, so tracking down a specific future story may be tricky.

You know its weird seeing these CT folks celebrating getting their stories into the mainstream media. This Guardian thing is one example, I also fleetingly saw some boast about Loose Change getting a mention on Fox News. It's like they've forgotten that the "evil media collaborators covering up the truth and releasing fake stories", is an absolutely essential part of the conspiracy.

It seems to me like an explosion in popularity will actually kill this thing off in the same way the X-Files killed off the quietly building suspicions about Roswell etc. As it becomes more popular, so many of its central issues start to fall apart. The Dark Conspiracy loses its mystique when discussed openly between the guys who are supposed to be in on it. The bitterly antisocial cause loses its appeal to the misfits and rebels when its all over daytime TV.

Ultimately, its going to fade away because it can't possibly sustain itself under pressure from news-hungry networks and viewers. The 911 conspiracy is a Big Idea, that easily captures the imagination but after it hits the headlines, it needs to follow-up with dramatic developments, twists and turns. The UFO scene had that until they peaked at the autopsy video, but of course, the 911 conspiracy can't have a follow-up, because it's in the past, and there isn't any substance. How long will the general public tolerate a trickle of ineptly formed and utterly inconsistent inuendo? Not long is my guess. All but the the familiar collection of cranks will look back after a couple of years and say, 'Hey what about all that 911 stuff. Didn't some folks say it was an inside job? Guess nothing came of that.'

That's my feeling anyway. Seems like the moon hoax was all over the media a while back, until suddenly the trendy thing was to not belive in the moon hoax.

[Shrinker]

there was a nice piece on the BBCs "newsnight" programme on 9/11 CTs yesterday, you can watch it here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3681938.stm

I would really love to see Dylan Avery interviewed by Jeremy Paxman :D
(for non UK residents Paxman, who hosts Newsnight, has a reputation for being a very incisive, but incredibly vicious interviews, he strikes fear into most politicians who come up against him, he is not in the clip I linked to)
Actually the Newsnight clip is here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4987504.stm (upper right corner) but the sound didn't work for me so I don't know what they said.

You're welcome :)

[chipmunk stew]

Just when you think they've hit rock bottom:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4486

[VicDaring]

Just when you think they've hit rock bottom:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4486

That's just weird.

(As opposed to the stark raving sanity of the rest of the 9-11 CT movement, I know. But still...)

[DavidJames]

If you're a student who has a teacher who believes in 9/11 truth, you could "secretly" bring a tape recorder to class and tape record your teacher saying that Bush was responsible for 9/11. I think someone should warn them. If they plan on secretly taping their teacher, they should take their lunch in a paper bag and put the recorder there, rather then in their tin Pokemon lunch box.

[Shrinker]

Just when you think they've hit rock bottom:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4486

Ruining the career of a fellow truth seeker just to get themselves in the media? What a wonderful cozy little movement.

[brodski]

Actually the Newsnight clip is here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4987504.stm (upper right corner) but the sound didn't work for me so I don't know what they said.

You're welcome :)
thanks.
I'm not sure how I posted the wrong link. it's a conspiracy I tells ya. ;)

[Shrinker]

thanks.
I'm not sure how I posted the wrong link. it's a conspiracy I tells ya. ;)
I nearly posted the same faulty link in my correction. Somthing weird at the BBC site.

Anyway, don't know if this has been posted already. It's quite an amusing article about the Pentagon and Loose Change specifically.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4990686.stm

The theorists do not believe eyewitnesses, physical evidence, engineering studies or even the claims of Osama Bin Laden, so it is unlikely that they will be convinced by grainy video frames.

The Loosers have a reposte however...
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4374

On a Small Note the BBC have always been noted for their biased.. so this article is no shock to me or to any of my friends who have read it... the fact that L/C 2 Has been mentioned on the BBC website to me is a good thing (just a pitty) they do not have a comments section on it, I would have putin a few words off my own in rebuttle to the what the BBC Claims....
Poor BBC. Absolutely everyone with an opinion accuses them of bias. And why can nobody over there spell rebuttal? It's rediculous!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Ruining the career of a fellow truth seeker just to get themselves in the media? What a wonderful cozy little movement.

Speaking of ruined careers, I have a friend who has a home business composing and writing resumes.

So this welder comes in looking to have a resume done and she starts the interview to get all his education, training and work history down. As soon as she gets to his latest job and asks him why he left, he starts spewing 9-11 conspiracy gibberish claiming that's why he was fired.

Appearantly, if you work in the oil industry, specifically with open flames in the prescence of oxygen and acetelyne tanks and you go around telling your boss that nothing explodes inside a burning building unless it's a brick of C4, he will fire your dumb ass becuase YOUR IGNORANCE OF BASIC FIRE SAFETY WILL KILL HIS EMPLOYEES AND BLOW UP HIS BUILDING AND EQUIPMENT!!!

I've never heard a CTist acknowledge the basic fact that everything from spray cans and pop bottles to undischarged fire extinguishers, power transformers and propane or oxygen tanks can and will explode when immersed in flames. To a man, they all claim that the explosions reported by various witness at the WTC could only have been the result of demolition charges and nothing else.

So here's a guy who could be making (depending on his certifications) 60 to 100$ an hour in the Alberta oil industry but instead he's heading for a cardboard box in a back alley because his head is so full of CT garbage that he is a literal threat to anyone who hires him.

[brodski]

I nearly posted the same faulty link in my correction. Somthing weird at the BBC site.

Anyway, don't know if this has been posted already. It's quite an amusing article about the Pentagon and Loose Change specifically.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4990686.stm



The Loosers have a reposte however...
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4374


Poor BBC. Absolutely everyone with an opinion accuses them of bias. And why can nobody over there spell rebuttal? It's rediculous!
yeah, the BBC are just government shills *CoughHutton-reportCough*

[dubfan]

Appearantly, if you work in the oil industry, specifically with open flames in the prescence of oxygen and acetelyne tanks and you go around telling your boss that nothing explodes inside a burning building unless it's a brick of C4, he will fire your dumb ass becuase YOUR IGNORANCE OF BASIC FIRE SAFETY WILL KILL HIS EMPLOYEES AND BLOW UP HIS BUILDING AND EQUIPMENT!!!

...

So here's a guy who could be making (depending on his certifications) 60 to 100$ an hour in the Alberta oil industry but instead he's heading for a cardboard box in a back alley because his head is so full of CT garbage that he is a literal threat to anyone who hires him.

I love it. I hope the 911 "Truth" movement is proud of this little festival of insanity they've got cooking.

[bob_kark]

Appearantly, if you work in the oil industry, specifically with open flames in the prescence of oxygen and acetelyne tanks and you go around telling your boss that nothing explodes inside a burning building unless it's a brick of C4, he will fire your dumb ass becuase YOUR IGNORANCE OF BASIC FIRE SAFETY WILL KILL HIS EMPLOYEES AND BLOW UP HIS BUILDING AND EQUIPMENT!!!


This will now be in the running for The Sentence of the Year Award. Hosted by Thomas Pynchon oddly enough...

[Tailgater]

Geggy,

The power of CTs compels you
The power of CTs compels you
The power of CTs compels you...to post more CTs

[Regnad Kcin]

...It seems to me like an explosion in popularity will actually kill this thing off in the same way the X-Files killed off the quietly building suspicions about Roswell etc. As it becomes more popular, so many of its central issues start to fall apart. The Dark Conspiracy loses its mystique when discussed openly between the guys who are supposed to be in on it. The bitterly antisocial cause loses its appeal to the misfits and rebels when its all over daytime TV.

Ultimately, its going to fade away because it can't possibly sustain itself under pressure from news-hungry networks and viewers. The 911 conspiracy is a Big Idea, that easily captures the imagination but after it hits the headlines, it needs to follow-up with dramatic developments, twists and turns. The UFO scene had that until they peaked at the autopsy video, but of course, the 911 conspiracy can't have a follow-up, because it's in the past, and there isn't any substance. How long will the general public tolerate a trickle of ineptly formed and utterly inconsistent inuendo? Not long is my guess. All but the the familiar collection of cranks will look back after a couple of years and say, 'Hey what about all that 911 stuff. Didn't some folks say it was an inside job? Guess nothing came of that.'..I'd like to believe you. However, last time I checked, JFK was still not resting in peace.

[Gravy]

Geggy,

The power of CTs compels you
The power of CTs compels you
The power of CTs compels you...to post more CTs
Ed, forgive Tailgaiter, for he knows not what he does.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

This will now be in the running for The Sentence of the Year Award. Hosted by Thomas Pynchon oddly enough...


Hehe. :D

If my scientific knowledge and reasoning ability matched my spelling and grammar, I'd be a conspiracy nut. ;)

[Gravy]

...Appearantly, if you work in the oil industry, specifically with open flames in the prescence of oxygen and acetelyne tanks and you go around telling your boss that nothing explodes inside a burning building unless it's a brick of C4, he will fire your dumb ass becuase YOUR IGNORANCE OF BASIC FIRE SAFETY WILL KILL HIS EMPLOYEES AND BLOW UP HIS BUILDING AND EQUIPMENT!!!

From my favorite post of mid-May. Thanks, SOT.

Oh, yeah. It's sad, too. I'm just laughing to keep from crying.

[Gravy]

Anyway, don't know if this has been posted already. It's quite an amusing article about the Pentagon and Loose Change specifically.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4990686.stm

Yes, I sent the author a hearty thanks and links to debunkings.

[Tailgater]

Ed, forgive Tailgaiter, for he knows not what he does....

Sorry, spillover from 3 hours in the humor forum;)

[Gravy]

Ed, forgive Tailgaiter, for he knows not what he does....

Sorry, spillover from 3 hours in the humor forum;)
There's a humor forum? Man, I gotta get outta here! :drool:

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...
I've never heard a CTist acknowledge the basic fact that everything from spray cans and pop bottles to undischarged fire extinguishers, power transformers and propane or oxygen tanks can and will explode when immersed in flames. To a man, they all claim that the explosions reported by various witness at the WTC could only have been the result of demolition charges and nothing else.
...

Argh! Back to basic chemistry 101 with them!

[steve s]

If people have the time and the inclination, post a comment whenever you see something like this.


Done.:)


steven-s said...

In response to red95king, set a brick on your foot. It exerts a certain amount of force. Now drop that brick onto your foot from a height of ten feet. It exerts a heck of a lot more force. Right? That's what caused the WTC to pancake. Once it started to collapse the lower floors had to support a helluva lot more force than before. You should have stayed awake during physics class.

4:24 PM


Steve S.

[Belz...]

ETA: If you really want to know who has supported the thread, the list is too great to mention. Many JREF members have done an excellent job in helping to debunk the CT. I'm frequently amazed at some of the fantastic points made in this thread. We're a sharp group. Well, maybe not me, the rest are though.

My claws are sharp. Not sure about anything else, though.

[Belz...]

I had an email accusing me of using logic to argue my points.

Quote ?

[Belz...]

Mnyuck, mnyuck!

Yeah, I hate those, too. They eat electric cables.

[Shrinker]

I'd like to believe you. However, last time I checked, JFK was still not resting in peace.

Fair comment, but I do think JFK CTs have lost their power to provoke any kind of reaction from anyone but other JFK scholars. Forgive me if I misjudge the mood in the US but as far as I can tell people just don't take that stuff seriously any more. And its not even as if JFK conspiracies where particularly silly - most theories I heard seemed to involve no more than a dozen or so conspirators. I'm not an expert though...

[Regnad Kcin]

Shrinker, we're not in disagreement. Time will tell, of course.

Be well.

[Regnad Kcin]

Say geggy (and other conspiracy lovers)...

Not only does the "government" know where you live, due to those wonderful little W-2s you send in each April, if you have a cell phone, "they" can tell where you are all the time!

Have a paranoid day!

[DavidJames]

Remember Xraye?

He seemed articulate and mostly reasonable. I wonder whatever happend to him.

[Dave_46]

I've never heard a CTist acknowledge the basic fact that everything from spray cans and pop bottles to undischarged fire extinguishers, power transformers and propane or oxygen tanks can and will explode when immersed in flames. To a man, they all claim that the explosions reported by various witness at the WTC could only have been the result of demolition charges and nothing else.

I was involved in the re-creation of a fire which occurred in an old peoples home. It started as a small fire in a storage cupboard with a few spray cans of cleaning materials (say half a dozen). On one of the tests the explosion damaged the test rig. It was loud.

Dave

[Mr. Skinny]

I came across this account of a failure of a large, unprotected steel truss system after a blaze of 30 minutes. It's Chicago's McCormick Place exhibition hall fire of 1967. A very different type of building than the WTC, but interesting. Steel get hot. Steel loose strength. Roof cave in.
http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/disasters/mccormick_fire.html
Gravy, back in the 70's I worked as a fire protection engineer for the insurance mutual that insured McCormick place. They, of course, used it as a training vehicle to show us what can happen to steel in an unsprinklered building.

I googled it a couple of weeks ago, thinking it might be of interest here, but gave up when I found one of the first three links was to a CT sight specifically devoted to McCormick place. They claimed that since the steel sidewalls didn't collapse, that something else caused the roof to collapse, or some such nonsense. I guess I just felt like it would only make the thread more confusing at that time, so I didn't post it. Maybe I should have, but then again, I'm a govt. shill, and not a true henchman. :)

[Mr. Skinny]

(snip)
Appearantly, if you work in the oil industry, specifically with open flames in the prescence of oxygen and acetelyne tanks and you go around telling your boss that nothing explodes inside a burning building unless it's a brick of C4, he will fire your dumb ass becuase YOUR IGNORANCE OF BASIC FIRE SAFETY WILL KILL HIS EMPLOYEES AND BLOW UP HIS BUILDING AND EQUIPMENT!!!

I've never heard a CTist acknowledge the basic fact that everything from spray cans and pop bottles to undischarged fire extinguishers, power transformers and propane or oxygen tanks can and will explode when immersed in flames. To a man, they all claim that the explosions reported by various witness at the WTC could only have been the result of demolition charges and nothing else.

So here's a guy who could be making (depending on his certifications) 60 to 100$ an hour in the Alberta oil industry but instead he's heading for a cardboard box in a back alley because his head is so full of CT garbage that he is a literal threat to anyone who hires him.
I got a real chuckle out of this one Sword.

I'm a Safety Engineer in a multistory, 5 building, laboratory complex. We have about 25,000 line items of chemicals, hundreds of compressed gas tanks, high pressure hydraulics, high voltage electrical, etc.

I'm sure I'd be out of a job pretty quickly if I told my boss that only materials like C4 could explode.

Anyhow, thanks for the giggle.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

You wanna know the funny part?

If you chuck a brick of C-4 into a roaring fire, it will burn, not blow.

Just as with other explosives, you need to apply some energy to C-4 to kick off the chemical reaction. Because of the stabilizer elements, it takes a considerable shock to set off this reaction; lighting the C-4 with a match will just make it burn slowly, like a piece of wood (in Vietnam, soldiers actually burned C-4 as an improvised cooking fire). Even shooting the explosive with a rifle won't trigger the reaction. Only a detonator, or blasting cap will do the job properly.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/c-42.htm

So if the mystery conpsirators had placed explosive charges inside the WTC and then smashed a 200,000 pound molotov cocktail into the buildings and let it burn for an hour, there would have been NO collapse under thier theory becuase the charges would have been burned away.

[Polaris]

You wanna know the funny part?

If you chuck a brick of C-4 into a roaring fire, it will burn, not blow.

Just as with other explosives, you need to apply some energy to C-4 to kick off the chemical reaction. Because of the stabilizer elements, it takes a considerable shock to set off this reaction; lighting the C-4 with a match will just make it burn slowly, like a piece of wood (in Vietnam, soldiers actually burned C-4 as an improvised cooking fire). Even shooting the explosive with a rifle won't trigger the reaction. Only a detonator, or blasting cap will do the job properly.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/c-42.htm

So if the mystery conpsirators had placed explosive charges inside the WTC and then smashed a 200,000 pound molotov cocktail into the buildings and let it burn for an hour, there would have been NO collapse under thier theory becuase the charges would have been burned away.

In short, use it to start a fire, but don't stamp it out.

[Mr. Skinny]

You wanna know the funny part?

If you chuck a brick of C-4 into a roaring fire, it will burn, not blow.

Just as with other explosives, you need to apply some energy to C-4 to kick off the chemical reaction. Because of the stabilizer elements, it takes a considerable shock to set off this reaction; lighting the C-4 with a match will just make it burn slowly, like a piece of wood (in Vietnam, soldiers actually burned C-4 as an improvised cooking fire). Even shooting the explosive with a rifle won't trigger the reaction. Only a detonator, or blasting cap will do the job properly.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/c-42.htm
So if the mystery conpsirators had placed explosive charges inside the WTC and then smashed a 200,000 pound molotov cocktail into the buildings and let it burn for an hour, there would have been NO collapse under thier theory becuase the charges would have been burned away.
Yeah, my brother told me that when he was in Vietnam, guys humping out in the bush used to take chunks of it and light it on fire to heat rations, make coffee, etc.

Relatively safe stuff, unless you use a detonator.

[kookbreaker]

Yeah, my brother told me that when he was in Vietnam, guys humping out in the bush used to take chunks of it and light it on fire to heat rations, make coffee, etc.

Relatively safe stuff, unless you use a detonator.

Apparently the problems were:

1) Where you got the C4 in the first place: "How come those Claymore's didn't stop the enemy?" "I dunno. Care for a hot dog?"

2) Stomping out the fire. Ka-boom! Yo!

3) C4 poisoning was apparently a bit of a problem. It was bad to handle C4 and then eat food with the same hands. Also, cooking with the stuff in an enclosed area was a bad idea.

Meanwhile, guess what happens to Mr 'Can-of-Lysol-everyone-has-their-desk-drawer' in the average office fire.

[kookbreaker]

If you chuck a brick of C-4 into a roaring fire, it will burn, not blow.


The CTs complete lack of understanding of explosives has been a great source of amusement and pain. I've had them tell me the initial detonation of explosives was the fireball we saw on impact because: Ta-da! Jet Fuel is a combustable, not an explosive. So it couldn't blow up.

[Stellafane]

Remember Xraye?

He seemed articulate and mostly reasonable. I wonder whatever happend to him.

Between you and me, he's in a FEMA camp. Moron CT'ers do more harm than good to their cause. They make the other CT'ers look ridiculous, so we tolerate them. But articulate and reasonable CT'ers, we can't take a chance on. So we intern them and keep them passive with mind-altering drugs.

Don't tell anyone though.

[Polaris]

The CTs complete lack of understanding of explosives has been a great source of amusement and pain. I've had them tell me the initial detonation of explosives was the fireball we saw on impact because: Ta-da! Jet Fuel is a combustable, not an explosive. So it couldn't blow up.

The affect though, to be fair, can be explosive - if the fuel is contained in a sealed container (drums, fuel tanks, vapor in a building) and set alight, it will cause a (relatively) mild explosive effect. I say "mild" because if you compare the effects of a drum of jet fuel to a drum of C4, well, you can imagine the difference.

[hellaeon]

ahhhhh hah! i have been in 9/11 debates in a certain black metal forum, and the whole thing was a joke. i was virtually the ONLY one arguing that loose change was crap in every 9/11 based thread, and it was EXASPERATING. when i finally found THIS thread, it was like a breath of fresh air.

as much as i enjoy metal, i've been so detatched from the fan base for so long that i find it less and less appealing to be involved in any level, but i guess this is probably a problem that i'd encounter within any genre.

Interesting mate and cant agree more. Im heavily involved in my bands management, promotion, interstate shows etc, but im fairly detached from the fan base as well. As you know yourself, the average metal forum discussion is usually about who a 'f*gget' or whos not 'troo', 'cult' or because you like tool, enya or wolfmother, your a 'poser'. Its so unsatisfying mentally and im too far removed from being musically 'metal only' to care enough to be involved at the personal level.

These days despite playing every day on my drums I listen to more trance, Pink floyd and soundtracks then metal.

My cd is released today! I'll post a link to the site people so we can all bask in non CT mayhemic metal!

[WildCat]

These days despite playing every day on my drums I listen to more trance, Pink floyd and soundtracks then metal.
Of course, the old joke is:

Q:What do you call a guy who hangs out w/ musicians?

A: A drummer.

(runs and hides)

[Polaris]

Of course, the old joke is:

Q:What do you call a guy who hangs out w/ musicians?

A: A drummer.

(runs and hides)

I thought he was called the "bass player"

[CurtC]

Q. How do you know if the stage is exactly level?




A. The drummer drools out both sides of his mouth at the same time.

[dubfan]

How do you get a drummer off your front porch?





Tip him $5 and say "thanks for the pizza".

[Regnad Kcin]

Now kids, let's get back on topic:

"Raving Loons: Why do we love them so?"

[OMGturt1es]

Interesting mate and cant agree more. Im heavily involved in my bands management, promotion, interstate shows etc, but im fairly detached from the fan base as well. As you know yourself, the average metal forum discussion is usually about who a 'f*gget' or whos not 'troo', 'cult' or because you like tool, enya or wolfmother, your a 'poser'. Its so unsatisfying mentally and im too far removed from being musically 'metal only' to care enough to be involved at the personal level.


interesting!

i'm involved a bit myself with various projects and such. what band are you involved with? links! links!

[Ramooone]

i like how their arguments with the pentagon basically turn into the whole "if it isnt on video it never happened."

the only "evidence" they have is videotapes!

you just want to roll up a newspaper and hit them in the head and say "no!"

[Shrinker]

Just as with other explosives, you need to apply some energy to C-4 to kick off the chemical reaction. Because of the stabilizer elements, it takes a considerable shock to set off this reaction; lighting the C-4 with a match will just make it burn slowly, like a piece of wood (in Vietnam, soldiers actually burned C-4 as an improvised cooking fire). Even shooting the explosive with a rifle won't trigger the reaction. Only a detonator, or blasting cap will do the job properly.

One of the arguments against the CD theory has been that the demo charges might have gone off during the impacts, thus making the 'plan' a very dumb one. Is that argument now invalid, or are we assuming that the fire will set off the blasting caps instead?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Argh! Back to basic chemistry 101 with them!

University level chemistry? How about 3-2-1 Contact, where I learned the effects of heating sealed containers (HUUUGE flashback for all you children of the 80's out there)?

Or how about the label on a shaving cream can that says not to immerse the can in hot water or store it next to hot objects like radiators, ovens, furnaces, FLAMING AIRCRAFT WRECKS or frigging TOWERING INFERNOS?!?

[dubfan]

i like how their arguments with the pentagon basically turn into the whole "if it isnt on video it never happened."

the only "evidence" they have is videotapes!

you just want to roll up a newspaper and hit them in the head and say "no!"

This is more evidence for what I think it our perfect little conspiracy storm here -- one aspect of which is the rapid spread and availability and searchability of information via the internet. Problem is, people forget that these were real events with real physical forensic evidence, and that the case is largely based on THAT, and not a collection web pages with varying degrees of authority.

[dubfan]

One of the arguments against the CD theory has been that the demo charges might have gone off during the impacts, thus making the 'plan' a very dumb one. Is that argument now invalid, or are we assuming that the fire will set off the blasting caps instead?

They seem to overlook the fact that the impacts would've also severely damaged or destroyed any wiring that had been installed for the demo charges (pointed out to me by Dr. Greening).

[pgwenthold]

To get back to the Pentagon videos. I have heard many claim that "it looks like a missile hitting the building to me."

Once again, I have to ask a very fundamental question: do they have video of a missile hitting a building, and can they show me how these Pentagon videos are similar to that?

We heard for how long that the falling of the WTC towers "looked like a controlled demolition." However, upon closer inspection, the only similarity between the WTC falling and controlled demolition is that buildings fall down. The manner in which they fall are completely different. Even geggy ultimately had to admit that, and made up a new type of controlled demolition that looks very different from any controlled demolition.

So if they claim it looks like a missile hitting a building, they must have something that shows what a missile hitting a building looks like. I'd like to see that.

[dubfan]

This one should be worth watching.

Loosers catch a real, live structural engineer. He's not amused. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4580&st=0&#entry4568102)

:D

[Hellbound]

The affect though, to be fair, can be explosive - if the fuel is contained in a sealed container (drums, fuel tanks, vapor in a building) and set alight, it will cause a (relatively) mild explosive effect. I say "mild" because if you compare the effects of a drum of jet fuel to a drum of C4, well, you can imagine the difference.

Oddly enough, it's most damaging if dispersed in an aerosol mist and ignited, producing what's known as a Fuel-Air Explosive (FAE).

Not sure if you're familiar with explosive ratings, but they each are associated with an RF value. The RF value is a comparison of their relative explosive force. By definition, TNT has an RF of 1. Black powder is something like .5 (so 2 lbs of black powder is equivalent to 1 pound of TNT). C-4 checks in about 1.3 or 1.4 (can't recall which).

FAE's rated with an RF value clock in around 5. Both Jet Fuel and Gasoline can highly explosive, in the right conditions.

[CurtC]

So how about some conjecture about how LC3 will be different from LC2? I think the biggest difference between LC1 and LC2 was that they dropped the whole "missile pod" nonsense on the 767s that hit the WTC towers.

For the next round of changes, I've seen at the LC forum that they no longer use Karl Schwarz (Pentagon engine part is from an A3) as a reference. And Dylan says that the blue tent at the Pentagon is "just a tent." So those will be out of LC3.

My thought is that the WTC7 collapse will be much more emphasized, how it fell down looking like a CD. And they'll spend more time on the "squibs" of dust coming out of the towers during the collapses, plus they'll feature the "9/11 Eyewitness" tapes with the little pops of wind noise supposedly indicating explosions three miles away, while those explosions were not heard by the people actually in Manhattan.

And I bet they've found more innuendo, relationships among neocons that can be twisted to look suspicious. What else?

[Manny]

This one should be worth watching.

Loosers catch a real, live structural engineer. He's not amused. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4580&st=0&#entry4568102)

:DUnfortunately, they didn't catch a very good one. Or at least not one who has looked at the attacks with any seriousness. This is going to go poorly and leave the Loosers more convinced than ever that they're right.

A couple of errors I noticed immediately:

Regarding the picture of the WTC construction, he's right about the self-building cranes. But some of those columns he's referring to did indeed provide some horizontal load bearing in addition to the vertical loads (I'm surprised he missed that, since he correctly referred to them as tie-ins for the floor trusses). In addition, they are not "thin I-beams" at that level but rather box columns basically constructed from two I-beams. They become single I-beams at higher levels (where the aircraft hit) and become thinner.

7 WTC was not " built as a steel and glass box in the 1970's. A strong but not castle like structure." If it were, it might have stood. At the least, had it collapsed the collapse probably would have looked more like what the Loosers think a steel-frame building collapse "should" look like. It was built in 1984 to maximize column-free space. All the vertical support for the buildings was at the perimeter and in the elevator cores; there was no vertical support inbetween as there is in a more traditional "steel and glass box." 1 BT Plaza (the Deutsche Bank building) was such a box, as were 4, 5, and 6 WTC and (for design purposes, though the loading was different) 3 WTC.

The Millennium (which is also spelled sometimes correctly with one "n" -- don't ask -- did not sustain serious outer damage. It was thought to have initially, but in fact it sustained only cosmetic damage.

[kookbreaker]

I see the Loosers have already gone to their 'Krusty is coming' defense. If the woman was seen in the gash, the fire couldn't have been bad, right? Right?

Why do you think we call them 'Loosers'?

[geggy]

My thought is that the WTC7 collapse will be much more emphasized, how it fell down looking like a CD. And they'll spend more time on the "squibs" of dust coming out of the towers during the collapses, plus they'll feature the "9/11 Eyewitness" tapes with the little pops of wind noise supposedly indicating explosions three miles away, while those explosions were not heard by the people actually in Manhattan.

People in manhattan were experiencing full blown amnesia at the time of the attacks and the collapsing of the towers, they wouldn't remember what they had seen or heard. Firefighters and emergency personals, on other hand, usually stay cool under enormous panicky situations thus many of them have claimed to hear what may have been sounds of explosives going off.

[kookbreaker]

People in manhattan were experiencing full blown amnesia at the time of the attacks and the collapsing of the towers, they wouldn't remember what they had seen or heard.


Way to insult the inhabitants of Manhattan, jerk.

How did all the other cameras manage to experience amnesia as well?


Firefighters and emergency personals, on other hand, usually stay cool under enormous panicky situations thus many of them have claimed to hear what may have been sounds of explosives going off.

Or may have more likely been any number of common objects in an office building exploding from the heat.

[gruk]

One of the arguments against the CD theory has been that the demo charges might have gone off during the impacts, thus making the 'plan' a very dumb one. Is that argument now invalid, or are we assuming that the fire will set off the blasting caps instead?

Blasting caps are, generally speaking, not as powerful or nearly as stable as the "work" charge. They're usually heat sensitive, pressure sensitive or sensitive to voltage gradients (at least one, sometimes all). The blasting caps I trained with are definitely sensitive enough to go BOOM when exposed to a black-powder flame of very short duration.

Can't say I tried cooking them in a camp-stove flame, but mostly because I value my extremities enough to not dare.

[Abbyas]

People in manhattan were experiencing full blown amnesia at the time of the attacks and the collapsing of the towers, they wouldn't remember what they had seen or heard. Firefighters and emergency personals, on other hand, usually stay cool under enormous panicky situations thus many of them have claimed to hear what may have been sounds of explosives going off.

Who are these people experiencing full blown amnesia? I was 8 blocks away. I remember every single moment. I haven't met a single person who had amnesia.

[dubfan]

Unfortunately, they didn't catch a very good one. Or at least not one who has looked at the attacks with any seriousness. This is going to go poorly and leave the Loosers more convinced than ever that they're right.

You're probably right in your assessment of his seriousness, but I somehow doubt they will be able to marshal a solid argument in support of their airtight controlled demolition scenario.

I suspect that if he knew the same facts you do, he'd change his arguments accordingly, and his slips don't strengthen the controlled demo argument in any case.

If they convince him, I will be amazed.

[kookbreaker]

Who are these people experiencing full blown amnesia? I was 8 blocks away. I remember every single moment. I haven't met a single person who had amnesia.

Geggy has to add bigger lies to cover his other lies. He is very stupid.

[Gravy]

People in manhattan were experiencing full blown amnesia at the time of the attacks and the collapsing of the towers, they wouldn't remember what they had seen or heard. Firefighters and emergency personals, on other hand, usually stay cool under enormous panicky situations thus many of them have claimed to hear what may have been sounds of explosives going off.
Geggy, you called me a liar. Please prove it, apologize, or go away.

When you've done that, please show that a single person in Manhattan has amnesia about 9/11 and can't remember what they heard or saw.

[Abbyas]

God help me, I know that these people are so invested in the conspiracy that any information will be warped to help their case, but I just can't stay away.

[kookbreaker]

God help me, I know that these people are so invested in the conspiracy that any information will be warped to help their case, but I just can't stay away.

Dylan Avery is a cult leader. Its just that simple.

[Manny]

People in manhattan were experiencing full blown amnesia at the time of the attacks and the collapsing of the towers, they wouldn't remember what they had seen or heard.Congratulations. You have now processed more crap than the North River Wastewater Treatment Plant (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/northri.html).


Firefighters and emergency personals, on other hand, usually stay cool under enormous panicky situations thus many of them have claimed to hear what may have been sounds of explosives going off.Where are they, g? All these firefighters who said they heard a bomb -- why aren't they outside the WTC site with the Loosers saying, "I heard a bomb, dammit!" Why aren't they picketing Senators Schumer and Clinton demanding that the investigation be reopened to hear their testimony about bombs? Why aren't they on strike demanding that all firefighters be trained in bomb disposal or that bomb disposal units go in first to all skyscraper fires if they're so sure that bombs killed 343 of their brothers?

[farrisjs]

God help me, I know that these people are so invested in the conspiracy that any information will be warped to help their case, but I just can't stay away.

Sometimes I'am not sure why I keep coming back to this thread, there doesn't seem to be anything that will convince or change the CT minds. I feel that where are just going in circles with the "TRUTH" people not getting anywhere but then I see some the post here and at the LC forum and Gravy LC Guide that maybe this thread is doing something.

Steve

[kookbreaker]

Congratulations. You have now processed more crap than the North River Wastewater Treatment Plant (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/northri.html).


Where are they, g? All these firefighters who said they heard a bomb -- why aren't they outside the WTC site with the Loosers saying, "I heard a bomb, dammit!" Why aren't they picketing Senators Schumer and Clinton demanding that the investigation be reopened to hear their testimony about bombs? Why aren't they on strike demanding that all firefighters be trained in bomb disposal or that bomb disposal units go in first to all skyscraper fires if they're so sure that bombs killed 343 of their brothers?

Have the Loosers or any other 911 groups managed to get any Firefighters on their side? They've implied a lot that they have support from that sector, but I've never seen any firefighters actually come out and say it.

(I have seen firefighters express rage at how certain things were handled during the event and how they may have caused needless deaths, but this is is a far cry from saying it was a big conspiracy.)

[Manny]

(I have seen firefighters express rage at how certain things were handled during the event and how they may have caused needless deaths, but this is is a far cry from saying it was a big conspiracy.)This is exactly why I hate the Loosers to the point that I believe "he was a 9-11 conspiracy theorist" should be an affirmative defense to a murder charge. There are real, live questions not answered about 9-11. Questions about building design, questions about communication, questions about fire protection, questions about the role of the military in protecting civilian airspace, questions about civil liberties during a time of war when the exact nature of the war and the duration of it are unclear. Every second spent on these terrorist supporters is a second that ought to be spent on a serious issue. Every person who is persuaded by their garbage is a person who will look at actual important questions from an irrational perspective.

[NobbyNobbs]

People in manhattan were experiencing full blown amnesia at the time of the attacks and the collapsing of the towers, they wouldn't remember what they had seen or heard. Firefighters and emergency personals, on other hand, usually stay cool under enormous panicky situations thus many of them have claimed to hear what may have been sounds of explosives going off.

I have a few questions about this, Geggy.

1) What caused the amnesia?

2) What is it about firefighters that prevented tehm from getting it?

3) How long did the amnesia last?

4) Did any of these people realize what happened once it wore off?

5) Did the amnesia block out all their memories of what happened that day, or did it insert different memores? How do you explain what people *do* remember?

6) What evidence do you have for this amnesia occurring? Are you now just throwing random theories out, just for the heck of it? If so, I believe this is called "trolling".

[rwguinn]

You're probably right in your assessment of his seriousness, but I somehow doubt they will be able to marshal a solid argument in support of their airtight controlled demolition scenario.

I suspect that if he knew the same facts you do, he'd change his arguments accordingly, and his slips don't strengthen the controlled demo argument in any case.

If they convince him, I will be amazed.
and you, too, manny:
Are you structural engineers? Do you deal with strength of materials, loads, and stress on a daily basis?
If so, you're entitled to an opinion.
If not, shut up.
His description of the supports, cranes, and such are, to my knowlege, accurate. THERE WAS NO "CORE" as such on the twin towers! The load was distributed!

[farrisjs]

Have the Loosers or any other 911 groups managed to get any Firefighters on their side? They've implied a lot that they have support from that sector, but I've never seen any firefighters actually come out and say it.

(I have seen firefighters express rage at how certain things were handled during the event and how they may have caused needless deaths, but this is is a far cry from saying it was a big conspiracy.)

I know someone who is on the "Steering Committe" at 911Truth.org and he says that he has been interviewing firefighters and has a lot of evidence but I haven't seen any. I'll see what I can find out.

I'am sure there are a lot of first responders who are mad about how thing when down on 911 and the lack of new resource since but as far as supporting the CT I have serious doubt.

[bob_kark]

I have to hand it to you geggy, you're quite tenacious. Most people would have at least conceded that there may be some truth to the "official story" after having 179 posts firmly disproven. Yet, you manage to hang in there.

I wonder, at any point, have you looked back and thought to yourself, "Why is it that the 'official story' has managed to remain consistant through out this endless scrutiny, yet our conspiracy theory has to continuously adapt to all the holes that have been poked through it?" I would just think that knowing something like that would make you at least compare your version of the events to the fact that are readily available to you. Perhaps the better question to ask yourself is, "why do I still believe the conspiracy theory even though all available facts contridict it?"

Either way, I may have to start calling you Tenacious G, but that's a story for another time.

[Belz...]

People in manhattan were experiencing full blown amnesia at the time of the attacks and the collapsing of the towers,

Sheesh. You don't know how memory works EITHER ? What DO you know ?

they wouldn't remember what they had seen or heard.

So you no longer trust the fact that they heard explosions ?

[Pardalis]

People in manhattan were experiencing full blown amnesia at the time of the attacks and the collapsing of the towers, they wouldn't remember what they had seen or heard. Firefighters and emergency personals, on other hand, usually stay cool under enormous panicky situations thus many of them have claimed to hear what may have been sounds of explosives going off.

WILL YOU CUT IT OUT WITH YOUR FRIGGIN "FRONTAL LOBE" THEORY! You absolutely don't know what you're talking about and you sound like a nut.

[Manny]

If they convince him, I will be amazed.Oh, I agree with that. They have a 0% chance of convincing him. I'm just afraid that they'll convince themselves that structural engineers are dumb/bought off/in on it/whatever and will seize on his errors as "evidence."


and you, too, manny:
Are you structural engineers? Do you deal with strength of materials, loads, and stress on a daily basis?
If so, you're entitled to an opinion.
If not, shut up.
His description of the supports, cranes, and such are, to my knowlege, accurate. THERE WAS NO "CORE" as such on the twin towers! The load was distributed!I think you may have been reading more into my post than was warranted.

That said, this is as good an opportunity to discuss yet another of the Loosers' errors, one that is otherwise hardly worth addressing amidst the other dreck they post. When the real estate industry speaks of a building's "core," they're not referring to an engineering or architectural term that means "where the main support of a building is." As discussed, in most buildings there is not "main" support of a building. The term merely refers to "where the elevators are." A "center-core building" simply means that the elevator banks are in approximately the middle of the building. That's good for large office buildings when you want to distribute the worker bees all around the building. An offset-core building will have a pretty big expanse on one side of the elevator banks and a comparatively smaller area on the other side. That's a good design for smaller buildings where you want a decent-size expanse for cubicles or whatever -- you can stick conference rooms and executive offices on the narrower side. It's also good for some multi-tenant setups.

[Pardalis]

To remind everyone, here is geggy's infamous "frontal lobe theory":

What I meant was that sept 11 had major psychological impact on citizens who witnessed the chaotic and destructive act of terrorism that has generated widespread fear and distress. Usually when people are afraid, they tend to cling on higher authority expecting them to make them feel safe. When the frontal lobes of their brains are shut down that's caused by the feeling of fear and distress, their judgement becomes clouded and they will believe in anything that is said to them, especially by those who they expect to make them feel safe. The Bush administration were able to take full advantage of it and falsely assured them that they will go to afghanistan to "capture those who did the evil deeds" because he has the public full support. The homeland security created the five level terror alert level because now we know that an attack as massive as sept 11 could occur on america soil, we will become afraid everytime the alert is raised to elevated level to keep us bolted down with fear as the "war on terror" in the middle east continues. Now it's five years later, the frontal lobe are slowly opening up and the five level alert start to have less effect on us, it becomes more apparent and clear to us that the bush administration may have used sept 11 as a false pretext to invade afghanistan. Which is why propagandistic films relating to sept 11 like flight 93 and world trade center are coming around to remind us of why were fighting the "war on terror" in the middle east to prevent a terror attack on america soil to happen again. But it won't have any effect on us because we know the war on terror is a total farce. The wars that are fought in the middle east are based soley for their own interest.

:eye-poppi :eek: :eek: :eek:

[kookbreaker]

I see the Loosers have already gone to their 'Krusty is coming' defense. If the woman was seen in the gash, the fire couldn't have been bad, right? Right?

Why do you think we call them 'Loosers'?

Cripes. They've even gone back to their 'Fell faster than free-fall' arguements.'

Sheesh.

[Pardalis]

This is exactly why I hate the Loosers to the point that I believe "he was a 9-11 conspiracy theorist" should be an affirmative defense to a murder charge. There are real, live questions not answered about 9-11. Questions about building design, questions about communication, questions about fire protection, questions about the role of the military in protecting civilian airspace, questions about civil liberties during a time of war when the exact nature of the war and the duration of it are unclear. Every second spent on these terrorist supporters is a second that ought to be spent on a serious issue. Every person who is persuaded by their garbage is a person who will look at actual important questions from an irrational perspective.

Well said Manny.

[R.Mackey]

This isn't an argument, it's just contradiction!

No it isn't!

Any resemblance to real persons, actual dialogue, or Monty Python is entirely coincidental.

[Correa Neto]

I have a few questions about this, Geggy.

1) What caused the amnesia?



Neuralizers.
Teh Globalists use them all the time.

[rwguinn]

Oh, I agree with that. They have a 0% chance of convincing him. I'm just afraid that they'll convince themselves that structural engineers are dumb/bought off/in on it/whatever and will seize on his errors as "evidence."


I think you may have been reading more into my post than was warranted.

That is entirely possible. I was referring to the "not a very good one" point...To me, as an engineer, he makes sense, and has "dumbed down" his explanation to the over-simplification point to get the concepts across to the " Tomato plant IQ bunch"....
I did not want to see "critical thinkers" delve into folklore by professing expertise they do not posess .

That said, this is as good an opportunity to discuss yet another of the Loosers' errors, one that is otherwise hardly worth addressing amidst the other dreck they post. When the real estate industry speaks of a building's "core," they're not referring to an engineering or architectural term that means "where the main support of a building is." As discussed, in most buildings there is not "main" support of a building. The term merely refers to "where the elevators are." A "center-core building" simply means that the elevator banks are in approximately the middle of the building. That's good for large office buildings when you want to distribute the worker bees all around the building. An offset-core building will have a pretty big expanse on one side of the elevator banks and a comparatively smaller area on the other side. That's a good design for smaller buildings where you want a decent-size expanse for cubicles or whatever -- you can stick conference rooms and executive offices on the narrower side. It's also good for some multi-tenant setups.
Extremely True, although some older buildings (the Empire State Building being one)were built with the central core being a major load-bearing portion of it, mostly because of the available construction techniques at the time.

[Manny]

Neuralizers.
Teh Globalists use them all the time.The entrance to MIB headquarters? The one where K had to take that elevator way down? It's in the fan building of the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel, just a few blocks from the Trade Center. Coincidence? I think not!.

[dubfan]

If not, shut up.


Excuse me?

[Pardalis]

If the woman was seen in the gash, the fire couldn't have been bad, right? Right?

It's like: they see the woman in the gash, but they don't see the huge hole surrounding her. They cannot see the forest before the trees.

For them (the loosers), if the poor woman isn't burnt therefore the towers couldn't have collapsed. But what about that FREAKING HOLE in the building???

[Tailgater]

Another thing that no one has mentioned is if this conspiracy went that far back, why didn't George sr. just finish the job the first time? I mean c'mon. There was alot of people that were pissed he didn't, and we would've had the same results. I hear the call now...

Norm:"what do you want us to do George? We are on Sadam's doorstep and we have the support to go in."

George Sr.:"Nah, turn around. I'd like to hold off for now. Let's let the Dems run things for 8yrs, then we will rig the elections for my son so we can kill a couple buildings full of our own people first"

[Manny]

That is entirely possible. I was referring to the "not a very good one" point...To me, as an engineer, he makes sense, and has "dumbed down" his explanation to the over-simplification point to get the concepts across to the " Tomato plant IQ bunch"....
I did not want to see "critical thinkers" delve into folklore by professing expertise they do not posess .I prossess more expertise about the WTC collapses than he does, based on what he has posted so far, his credentials notwithstanding (assuming, for the sake of argument, that he has any -- we're looking at a second account from a Looser, after all). He made some fairly elemental factual errors about the buildings involved and about the events of the 11th. Dumbing down, I understand -- I did it myself when I mentioned the center columns bearing horizontal loads (they did, but the wind transfer systems and the trusses basically coverted those loads to vertical ones by the time they hit the columns). But that doesn't excuse basic factual errors.

[senorpogo]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but on Bill Maher's show - Real Time on HBO - during a panel discussion with Cornell West, Richard Clarke, and John Legend, Bill asked them if they had heard any about these 9/11 conspiracies and what they thought. None of them believed

Richard Clarke's quote was telling (and logical) - "All these conspiracy theories have the two basic problems: one, they believe the government is competent. And two, they believe the government can keep a secret."

So here you have a guy who worked for four presidents on issues of intelligence and terrorism. So either he knows what he's talking about or he's a part of the conspiracy. If he's in it, why the heck does the guy go on the record saying there was no link between Al Qaeda and Saddam and criticize Bush for his handling of intelligence bot pre and post 9/11?

[VespaGuy]

I see the Loosers have already gone to their 'Krusty is coming' defense. If the woman was seen in the gash, the fire couldn't have been bad, right? Right?

Speaking of the Loosers argument that the fire wasn't that bad... how do they explain why so many people jumped to their death?

[geggy]

I have a few questions about this, Geggy.

1) What caused the amnesia?

Shock and psychological disturbance

2) What is it about firefighters that prevented tehm from getting it?
They're trained and expected to remain calm and in control during panicky situations.
3) How long did the amnesia last?
As long as the government wants it to last...I mean, remember what I said about the repetive images of planes crashing/towers falling being shown on tv all over nyc during the aftermath of the attacks?
4) Did any of these people realize what happened once it wore off?
Like me, people are waking up to the fact that sept 11 was an inside job. It's a no brainer once amnesia start to wear off. They've done a very sloppy job trying to cover it up, like the way they couldn't. hide the fact there were no WMD's in Iraq...the only problem is that the mainstream media refuses to touch it (sept 11).
5) Did the amnesia block out all their memories of what happened that day, or did it insert different memores? How do you explain what people *do* remember?

Blocking out their memories. Do you expect people to remember they were experiencing amnesia? That's the beauty of it.

6) What evidence do you have for this amnesia occurring? Are you now just throwing random theories out, just for the heck of it? If so, I believe this is called "trolling".

It's in human nature to freak out during a terror attack as extraodinary as sept 11 unless you were trained like firefighters to remain calm and in control during these catastrophic situation.

Bobkark...you remind me of luke skywalker when he found out he was the son of darth vader. Do you remember his reaction?

"NOOOOOOOO!!!"

[Pardalis]

geggy, do you have any expertise in psychology?

[Manny]

They're trained and expected to remain calm and in control during panicky situations.So where are they?

It's in human nature to freak out during a terror attack as extraodinary as sept 11 unless you were trained like firefighters to remain calm and in control during these catastrophic situation.How do you explain that the evacuation of the towers and the subsequent evacuation of lower Manhattan was universally described as orderly and calm?

[kookbreaker]

Like me, people are waking up to the fact that sept 11 was an inside job. It's a no brainer once amnesia start to wear off. They've done a very sloppy job trying to cover it up, like the way they couldn't. hide the fact there were no WMD's in Iraq...the only problem is that the mainstream media refuses to touch it (sept 11).


I'll say it before and I'll say it again: Conspiracy Theories are the opiates of the self-impressed.

[Regnad Kcin]

This one should be worth watching.

Loosers catch a real, live structural engineer. He's not amused. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4580&st=0&#entry4568102)

:DAnd yet they continue on, disputing him, disagreeing with him, and all... without providing any proof!

- Say doctor, why do I feel funny?

- Well, based on my 18 years of study, internship, and practice in the field, not to mention the battery of tests we've run, I'd have to suggest arteriorsclerosis, bec--

- Yeah? Well, I watched "ER" last week, and you're wrong!

[bob_kark]

Bobkark...you remind me of luke skywalker when he found out he was the son of darth vader. Do you remember his reaction?

"NOOOOOOOO!!!"

Wow, how was I able to convey that impression? I suppose it could be my amazement that you're still going. The Energizer bunny would be envious.

[Hellbound]

geggy, do you have any expertise in psychology?

From his post immediately before yours, I can confidently say:

No, he does not.

And sorry, geggy, but firefighters are not immune to freaking out, and normal people may or may not, depending. It's not a finely divided line at all.

In fact, I'd suggest that the number that freak out mentally is identical (percentage wise). The difference is in training. An untrained person freaks out and has no clue what to do or what is going on. The trained person freaks out mentally and, instead of standing dumbstruck or runing around screaming, kicks into the rote training that was drilled into them.

I've seen this in combat situations several times (although I am not a psychologist either, so my opinion is not authoritive).

However, none of these situations entails that any of these people would be more or less likely to remember anything. In fact, there have been several documented instances of soldiers in life-threatening situations taking a series of actions that got them out of it, and being able to remember only a few hazy details of the incident later (and sometimes even those hazy details are incorrect).

Training is not to keep you from freaking out, but to instill, by rote and repetition, the correct actions when you do freak out.

[Pardalis]

geggy, where does this "frontal lobe"/"amnesia" BS come from?

[Tailgater]

Amnesia? How do explain the countless people that have told what they experienced personally that day on every news and talk show around the world? Brainwashed? Reprogrammed? How did the government round them up? Done by images on TV? Subliminal messages? I think amnesia is a desperate road to take. Hmm, I have been feeling like i was there lately.

[R.Mackey]

Shock and psychological disturbance [...]

Blocking out their memories. Do you expect people to remember they were experiencing amnesia? That's the beauty of it.

It's in human nature to freak out during a terror attack as extraodinary as sept 11 unless you were trained like firefighters to remain calm and in control during these catastrophic situation.

Um, hey nutball... all these amnesiacs are the ones you're relying on for those "it sounded like a bomb" testimonials, right? I mean, obviously their memory is so perfect that their recollection is undeniable (especially taken out of context ;) ), even if it is completely contradicted by physical, video, and forensic evidence, engineering, science, and common sense?

There's no way so many people could have gotten it wrong, huh? Since it's absurd to suggest that a large group of eyewitnesses could all have the same false impression? Why, you might as well expect me to believe that everyone in Manhattan misremembered the same way!!

Irony aside, this whole debate is indistinguishable from arguing with a two-year-old.

[Walk The Line]

I'll say it before and I'll say it again: Conspiracy Theories are the opiates of the self-impressed.

That just became my favorite quote.

[Regnad Kcin]

geggy, do you have any expertise in psychology?Earlier, he mentioned his "wife" being some such.

[Regnad Kcin]

Hey, geggy, they're watching you. They're listening in. Maybe even...right now.

[Shrinker]

Speaking of the Loosers argument that the fire wasn't that bad... how do they explain why so many people jumped to their death?

An excellent question. The appropriate answer is either (a) a complete change of subject eg. WTC7, (b) a bunch of links to random CT sites, or (c) insults.

[aggle-rithm]

geggy, do you have any expertise in psychology?

His wife is a psycho therapist!

[Mercutio]

geggy, do you have any expertise in psychology?I do. And it is my expert opinion that geggy knows every bit as much about psychology as he does about any of the other topics he has posted on.

Nothing.

[Pardalis]

Earlier, he mentioned his "wife" being some such.

Yeah, what he says does sound like an idiot's second hand interpretations of complex psychology litterature.

[aggle-rithm]

Shock and psychological disturbance


They're trained and expected to remain calm and in control during panicky situations.

As long as the government wants it to last...I mean, remember what I said about the repetive images of planes crashing/towers falling being shown on tv all over nyc during the aftermath of the attacks?

Like me, people are waking up to the fact that sept 11 was an inside job. It's a no brainer once amnesia start to wear off. They've done a very sloppy job trying to cover it up, like the way they couldn't. hide the fact there were no WMD's in Iraq...the only problem is that the mainstream media refuses to touch it (sept 11).


Blocking out their memories. Do you expect people to remember they were experiencing amnesia? That's the beauty of it.



It's in human nature to freak out during a terror attack as extraodinary as sept 11 unless you were trained like firefighters to remain calm and in control during these catastrophic situation.

Bobkark...you remind me of luke skywalker when he found out he was the son of darth vader. Do you remember his reaction?

"NOOOOOOOO!!!"

geggy:

Most people remember traumatic events with far greater clarity than the more mundane occurances. It's a survival mechanism that helps us keep potential dangers at the front of our minds, but unfortunately it's also the cause of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Can you explain why the terrorist attacks had the OPPOSITE effect on the people of New York? Is it something in the water? Subliminal messages? Public schools?

Come on, think of a good one!

[Pardalis]

His wife is a psycho therapist!

I get the feeling she's not his wife, but his therapist.

[chipmunk stew]

Shock and psychological disturbance

They're trained and expected to remain calm and in control during panicky situations.

As long as the government wants it to last...I mean, remember what I said about the repetive images of planes crashing/towers falling being shown on tv all over nyc during the aftermath of the attacks?

Like me, people are waking up to the fact that sept 11 was an inside job. It's a no brainer once amnesia start to wear off. They've done a very sloppy job trying to cover it up, like the way they couldn't. hide the fact there were no WMD's in Iraq...the only problem is that the mainstream media refuses to touch it (sept 11).

Blocking out their memories. Do you expect people to remember they were experiencing amnesia? That's the beauty of it.

It's in human nature to freak out during a terror attack as extraodinary as sept 11 unless you were trained like firefighters to remain calm and in control during these catastrophic situation.

Bobkark...you remind me of luke skywalker when he found out he was the son of darth vader. Do you remember his reaction?

"NOOOOOOOO!!!"geggy, you've forced my hand.


GLOP (KITTY PUDDING) (http://www.divinerecipes.com/recipe.cfm/recipeid/6369/Glop-(Kitty-Pudding))

This pudding is rich in calcium and can be fed as a supplement for weaning kittens, lactating queens, or sick cats. It can also be used to put weight on show cats.

0.35oz (10 grams) unflavored gelatin
8.45oz (250ml) boiling water
8.45 oz (250ml) evaporated milk (or goats milk)
2 egg yolks (discard the whites)
2 tablespoons high calorie mayonnaise
2 tablespoons plain yogurt
2 tablespoons corn syrup
1 capsule acidophilus (or use acidophilus yogurt)
Cat vitamins

Dissolve gelatin in 8.45oz (250ml) boiling water and leave to cool. Add all remaining ingredients to cooled gelatin. Place the mixture in the refrigerator. The mixture will gel as it cools and can be scooped out as required. Warm the mixture slightly in the microwave before serving. Do not return heated mixture to the main supply.

Mixture can be kept in the refrigerator for seven days or frozen until needed.

[dubfan]

I've tried to stay out of the geggy discussion, but does it seem obvious to anyone else but me that he's either seriously ill, or a deliberate troll? Why do we keep feeding his little attention-orgy he's got going for himself?

Geggy, seriously. I'm giving you advice as a fellow human being -- if you're not just here to see what kind of reaction you can get or you're not engaged in some type of sadomasochistic humiliation fantasy...get some help. If there is a real-live conspiracy out there -- you're in no condition to fight it right now. Really, get some help.

And if you're just trolling, go away.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Hi Geggy. If you look back through the last couple pages, you will see we've already discussed the witness reports of explosions inside the WTC buildings.

Here's the Reader's Digest version:

Things explode when heated.

These include but are not limited to:
Coca-Cola cans
Spray cans
Undischarged fire extingushers
Power Transformers
Oxygen tanks
Barbecue fuel tanks
And many others

The witnesses on site at ground zero did hear explosions. But none of them ever found any evidence of explosives.

[Shrinker]

I've tried to stay out of the geggy discussion, but does it seem obvious to anyone else but me that he's either seriously ill, or a deliberate troll? Why do we keep feeding his little attention-orgy he's got going for himself?

Geggy, seriously. I'm giving you advice as a fellow human being -- if you're not just here to see what kind of reaction you can get or you're not engaged in some type of sadomasochistic humiliation fantasy...get some help. If there is a real-live conspiracy out there -- you're in no condition to fight it right now. Really, get some help.

And if you're just trolling, go away.

I don't think he's a troll. An entity by the same name hangs out on a pro CT forum spouting similar nonsense but to a much friendlier crowd. Why he's here is a mystery to me though. He can't really think he's going to convert anyone.

[karim]

This "Manhattan amnesia" could be a whole new side track in this conspiracy theory. Mayby it was caused by a secret bioweapon that was released on 911. This genetically engineered psyop-bioweapon can make people accept subliminal messages from tv that make them believe the OV. The firefighters where not affected cose they have been secretly inoculated like other government employees.
Who knows mayby all of you, who still insist on the OV are brainwashed by this method.


This and more TROOTH in my coming film "THE MANHATTAN AMNESIA" that I would so like to give for free but I have to charge 29,95 for it is very important for the sake of our grandchildren that I get financial support to spread the TROOOTH.

[aggle-rithm]

I've tried to stay out of the geggy discussion, but does it seem obvious to anyone else but me that he's either seriously ill, or a deliberate troll? Why do we keep feeding his little attention-orgy he's got going for himself?



Sigh....I know what you mean.

It's like a train wreck. It's horrible, but you just feel compelled to keep looking at it.

I need to stop following this thread. I can feel my IQ dropping by the day. :(

[RayG]

geggy, do you have any expertise in psychology?

Doubtful, BUT, he can quote Star Wars dialog, so that makes him an expert. :D

RayG

[Correa Neto]

The entrance to MIB headquarters? The one where K had to take that elevator way down? It's in the fan building of the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel, just a few blocks from the Trade Center. Coincidence? I think not!.

Teh amnisia wus caused by neuralizers AND chemtrails. Evil guvment iz asperging chemtrails of mind-control agents 4 years.

Teh MIB fan wus uzed to launch the same chemtrails gases!

edited to substitute "Da MIB" by "Teh MIB"

[RayG]

Can you explain why the terrorist attacks had the OPPOSITE effect on the people of New York? Is it something in the water? Subliminal messages? Public schools?

Come on, think of a good one!

It's all explained in the movies -- Star Wars, MIB, The Matrix, etc. etc. -- take yer pick.

As for a specific explanation for mass amnesia:

http://www.kernel.uky.edu/1997/summer/0703/mib.gif

RayG

[geggy]

Huntman

I understand that and I have no doubt the firefighters have panicked but not as much as regular citizens which is why they were able to record little things into their mind. They know risk is big part of their job and they're suppose to expect and prepare for the worse at anytime of the day.

Also there are numerous reports from firefighters that they heard something exploding inside the building. I'd have my doubts and would believe it was due to the haziness of their memories if there were as little as one or two reports of those who heard the explosions but that's not the case, there are basically too many of them. Every one of the statements are almost in unision of what they had heard.

Witnesses to hearing asplosion: http://911proof.com/11.html

[geggy]

Oops forgot to say "power of christ compels you" but you get the idea

[DavidJames]

In case you missed this...

Also there are numerous reports from firefighters that they heard something exploding inside the building. I'd have my doubts and would believe it was due to the haziness of their memories if there were as little as one or two reports of those who heard the explosions but that's not the case, there are basically too many of them. Every one of the statements are almost in unision of what they had heard.

Witnesses to hearing asplosion: http://911proof.com/11.htmlWhere are they, g? All these firefighters who said they heard a bomb -- why aren't they outside the WTC site with the Loosers saying, "I heard a bomb, dammit!" Why aren't they picketing Senators Schumer and Clinton demanding that the investigation be reopened to hear their testimony about bombs? Why aren't they on strike demanding that all firefighters be trained in bomb disposal or that bomb disposal units go in first to all skyscraper fires if they're so sure that bombs killed 343 of their brothers?

[Pardalis]

Witnesses to hearing asplosion

I thought my english was bad...

[Pardalis]

Oops, I forgot to say you're a moron geggy.

[kookbreaker]

Huntman

I understand that and I have no doubt the firefighters have panicked but not as much as regular citizens which is why they were able to record little things into their mind. They know risk is big part of their job and they're suppose to expect and prepare for the worse at anytime of the day.

Also there are numerous reports from firefighters that they heard something exploding inside the building. I'd have my doubts and would believe it was due to the haziness of their memories if there were as little as one or two reports of those who heard the explosions but that's not the case, there are basically too many of them. Every one of the statements are almost in unision of what they had heard.

Witnesses to hearing asplosion: http://911proof.com/11.html

We've had more than a few posts explaining how explosions in a fire are not likely to be explosive devices. Why do you persist in continuing this nonsense?

[chipmunk stew]

In case you missed this...And in case you missed this, too, geggy:

"EXPLOSION" DOES NOT EQUAL "BOMB"

[chipmunk stew]

We've had more than a few posts explaining how explosions in a fire are not likely to be explosive devices. Why do you persist in continuing this nonsense?Because he's a troll.

[geggy]

And in case you missed this, too, geggy:

"EXPLOSION" DOES NOT EQUAL "BOMB"


Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?

[Anti_Hypeman]

I give the movie a big thumbs down. Its not even entertainingly bad its a total snooooozeathon. I dont understand what the hype is about loosers dont make any sense. Its like somebody watching starship troopers and then joining the army to kill giant bugs.

Why didnt you guys mobilize after Farenhype 9/11 came out? Mr. Moore just didnt do it for you but this clown did?

[Pardalis]

Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?

????????????????????????? Come again?

[Manny]

Come again?If his mother hadn't said that at exactly the wrong time we wouldn't be having this problem.

[chipmunk stew]

Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?My elementary school teacher was lying when she told me there are no stupid questions.

A loud boom is evidence of an explosion.

[Pardalis]

If his mother hadn't said that at exactly the wrong time we wouldn't be having this problem.

LOL

[kookbreaker]

This one should be worth watching.

Loosers catch a real, live structural engineer. He's not amused. (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4580&st=0&#entry4568102)

:D

Interesting, suddenly 'Terrorcell' has become a tiny, weak, voice of reason in that thread. The moderators, meanwhile, are still playing their usual stupid games.

[Hellbound]

Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?

No, it isn't, which is exactly why we're trying to tell you that you have no evidence it was a bomb of any sort, or any type of intentionally planted explosive device.

[Yahzi]

People in manhattan were experiencing full blown amnesia at the time of the attacks and the collapsing of the towers, they wouldn't remember what they had seen or heard.
Well, how can you argue against that.

Every single witness that disagrees was temporarily insane. Every expert that disagrees is bought off. And the government silence any real media review of this.

Of course, now that the mainstream media is reporting these claims, one has to wonder why the CIA allowed Loose Change to exist long enough to stir up this much trouble...

[geggy]

My elementary school teacher was lying when she told me there are no stupid questions.

A loud boom is evidence of an explosion.

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, very much like that one.

[Pardalis]

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, very much like that one.

Here's a question, how come you have become such a wonderfull and insightfully bright young man geggy?

[Hellbound]

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, very much like that one.

Sorry, but there are stupid questions. Generally, the same question asked a second time after an answer has already been given sufficiently is a stupid question.

[Regnad Kcin]

Gosh, I'll try parsing this attempt at "English:"
Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?
geg, my sweet, you're the last person I know to be going on about evidence. Nevertheless, we know that people frequently use simile and allusion when communicating. "Sounds like," "feels like," "smells like," and any number of similar descriptive short cuts are simple devices that happen to be effective. Doesn't mean that if something "tastes like" chicken it is chicken.

You, nor any of your cult brothers, have presented evidence there were bombs at the WTC. Evidence. Not what a video "looks like."

Now off with you to the next session with your "wife." And be sure to carry your cell phone.

[Ramooone]

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, very much like that one.

there is no stupid questions, just stupid people

Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?

did you hear that? thats my head exploding from this grammatical nightmare. it wasn't a controlled demoltion, my brain was built to sustain the impact of bad grammar, i'm actually surprised it didnt explode as soon as i read this but after an hour or so there was a catastrophic collapse. The blood shooting out of my ears is not from squibs, its from cerebral pancaking.

[chipmunk stew]

The LC forum mods seem to have backed off a bit if anyone wants in. Maybe because they've gotten more traffic--harder to police--or maybe because they've been getting bad "press" about their heavy-handedness. They have a dedicated SKEPTICS Forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showforum=27), which I'm mostly sticking to for the time being.

Anyway, it's much easier to sharpen your teeth over there than it is here, where we only get to fight over scraps like geggy.

[dubfan]

Interesting, suddenly 'Terrorcell' has become a tiny, weak, voice of reason in that thread. The moderators, meanwhile, are still playing their usual stupid games.

OMFG I do believe you're right -- I think I see what might be a glimmer of reason starting to flicker over there.

[Gravy]

As for trained emergency personnel not being like the rest of us, it's worth looking into the interviews and testimony of EMT Patricia Ondrovic. She was outside her ambulance on Vesey street near WTC 6 when the south tower collapsed. Just before that collapse, a supervisor announced that there might be an incoming plane. This was a big surprise to her, since she had thought the damage to the towers was caused by bombs. Here are some of the things she remembers as she ran for her life:

–She tried to enter the lobby of WTC 6 but was told by security to get away. She saw a series of at least six flashes go off along the ceiling of the WTC 6 lobby, accompanied by popping noises.

–She believed that those flashes were demolitions explosives going off.

–She ran north and west as at least three parked cars exploded around her, one of them setting her coat on fire.

-While in North Park she believed she saw an airplane explode in a fireball over New Jersey.

– She hooked up with another ambulance about 15 blocks north and told the driver to take them out of the city, to drive to Westchester.

– A supervisor stopped the ambulance and told it to turn back and go towards the WTC. She tried to refuse.

–She had a panic attack and was having trouble breatihing from all the dust she had inhaled, and was treated in the back of the ambulance, then taken to St. Vincent's Medical Center.

–It wasn't until a week later that she learned it was the collapse of the south tower she had been running from. She had thought it was a bomb.

That's what terror can do, even to someone who deals with life-and-death emergencies on a daily basis.

[Polaris]

Oddly enough, it's most damaging if dispersed in an aerosol mist and ignited, producing what's known as a Fuel-Air Explosive (FAE).

Not sure if you're familiar with explosive ratings, but they each are associated with an RF value. The RF value is a comparison of their relative explosive force. By definition, TNT has an RF of 1. Black powder is something like .5 (so 2 lbs of black powder is equivalent to 1 pound of TNT). C-4 checks in about 1.3 or 1.4 (can't recall which).

FAE's rated with an RF value clock in around 5. Both Jet Fuel and Gasoline can highly explosive, in the right conditions.

I don't know the first thing about physics, let alone the RF scale. But I wonder if the impact of the planes into the WTC created a vapor explosion - if it did, was it considered in the NIST report? I suppose not, actually, given how long the towers remained standing.

[Gravy]

I don't know the first thing about physics, let alone the RF scale. But I wonder if the impact of the planes into the WTC created a vapor explosion - if it did, was it considered in the NIST report? I suppose not, actually, given how long the towers remained standing.
Well, there's the question of what caused the explosion in the freight elevator shaft that also tore up the north tower lobby and created a soot cloud. Witnesses dozens of floors below the impact site reported smelling kerosene (commercial jet fuel is basically kerosene). It seems likely that liquid fuel poured down the elevator shaft and its vapors ignited. There's also the possiblilty the the fireball from the initial impact traveled down the shaft, but I don't know how likely it is that it would make it that far down.

[Pardalis]

As for trained emergency personnel not being like the rest of us, it's worth looking into the interviews and testimony of EMT Patricia Ondrovic. She was outside her ambulance on Vesey street near WTC 6 when the south tower collapsed. Just before that collapse, a supervisor announced that there might be an incoming plane. This was a big surprise to her, since she had thought the damage to the towers was caused by bombs. Here are some of the things she remembers as she ran for her life:

–She tried to enter the lobby of WTC 6 but was told by security to get away. She saw a series of at least six flashes go off along the ceiling of the WTC 6 lobby, accompanied by popping noises.

–She believed that those flashes were demolitions explosives going off.

–She ran north and west as at least three parked cars exploded around her, one of them setting her coat on fire.

-While in North Park she believed she saw an airplane explode in a fireball over New Jersey.

– She hooked up with another ambulance about 15 blocks north and told the driver to take them out of the city, to drive to Westchester.

– A supervisor stopped the ambulance and told it to turn back and go towards the WTC. She tried to refuse.

–She had a panic attack and was having trouble breatihing from all the dust she had inhaled, and was treated in the back of the ambulance, then taken to St. Vincent's Medical Center.

–It wasn't until a week later that she learned it was the collapse of the south tower she had been running from. She had thought it was a bomb.

That's what terror can do, even to someone who deals with life-and-death emergencies on a daily basis.

What an impressive story. Poor woman, I can't imagine what she lived through.

That's what sickens me about the CTs, they have no regards for these people who lived first hand the terror. They say they do, that they're just after the "Truth", but the truth is that these attacks exactly did what they were designed to do: terrorise people and create chaos. To this day, thanks to the CTs, the chaos continues.

[Pardalis]

Anyway, it's much easier to sharpen your teeth over there than it is here, where we only get to fight over scraps like geggy.

I don't think I'd be able to keep my cool with that crowd. I can barely restrain myself from yelling at geggy as it is. At least geggy is kind of funny, in his own gung-ho absurdity. But posters at LC like Terrorcell and Jenabell are just simply viscious and mean.

[Polaris]

Well, there's the question of what caused the explosion in the freight elevator shaft that also tore up the north tower lobby and created a soot cloud. Witnesses dozens of floors below the impact site reported smelling kerosene (commercial jet fuel is basically kerosene). It seems likely that liquid fuel poured down the elevator shaft and its vapors ignited. There's also the possiblilty the the fireball from the initial impact traveled down the shaft, but I don't know how likely it is that it would make it that far down.

Forgot about that. It makes sense though - if the jet fuel was vaporized in the shafts, and ignited, based on the previous post's claim that vaporized jet fuel is 5 times as explosive as TNT, then it would certainly explain the lobby damage. That's interesting - is it at all unreasonable to suggest that a fuel/air explosion was caused in the elevator shafts? I mean, if there ever was a day when the "impossible" could happen...

[chipmunk stew]

Dylan's dream becomes his nightmare:
http://brainster.blogspot.com/2006_05_14_brainster_archive.html#1148068685061951 03

[Belz...]

Neuralizers.
Teh Globalists use them all the time.

Some of us call them Persuadertrons.

[Belz...]

Shock and psychological disturbance

There's no such thing as selective memory loss, geggy, except in movies.

They're trained and expected to remain calm and in control during panicky situations.

Which doesn't preclude non-firefighters remaining calm and remembering everything perfectly, according to your own theory.

As long as the government wants it to last...

So.... it's NOT the shock that causes the amnesia, but the GOVERNMENT ?

Are you insane ?

I mean, remember what I said about the repetive images of planes crashing/towers falling being shown on tv all over nyc during the aftermath of the attacks?

You give the "shock" too much credit. The fact that you didn't mention it until you were cornered by everyone here shows how dishonest you are when arguing.

Like me, people are waking up to the fact that sept 11 was an inside job. It's a no brainer once amnesia start to wear off.

And, for some reason, non-americans ALSO have amnesia ?

They've done a very sloppy job trying to cover it up, like the way they couldn't.

If they're sloppy, then they couldn't have possibly pulled it off in the first place, but you've never answered that particular argument.

hide the fact there were no WMD's in Iraq...the only problem is that the mainstream media refuses to touch it (sept 11).

What does that have to do with anything ?

Blocking out their memories. Do you expect people to remember they were experiencing amnesia? That's the beauty of it.

You mean it's tremendously convenient to your theory because it's non-falsifiable.

It's in human nature to freak out during a terror attack as extraodinary as sept 11 unless you were trained like firefighters to remain calm and in control during these catastrophic situation.

It's also in human nature to, dig this, remember shocking experiences even more than non-shocking ones, as a survival trait.

Bobkark...you remind me of luke skywalker when he found out he was the son of darth vader. Do you remember his reaction?

Oooohhh... yeah. Like that fictional character in a fiction movie. That's a powerful argument, indeed.

[SezMe]

Well, there's the question of what caused the explosion in the freight elevator shaft that also tore up the north tower lobby and created a soot cloud. Witnesses dozens of floors below the impact site reported smelling kerosene (commercial jet fuel is basically kerosene). It seems likely that liquid fuel poured down the elevator shaft and its vapors ignited. There's also the possiblilty the the fireball from the initial impact traveled down the shaft, but I don't know how likely it is that it would make it that far down.
I read the full 9/11 commission report. If I remember correctly, it said the initial blast traveled down the shafts and blew the doors off on the sixth level basement and injured people who were in the vicinity.

[NoZed Avenger]

Oooohhh... yeah. Like that fictional character in a fiction movie. That's a powerful argument, indeed.

I find your lack of faith . . . disturbing.

[Belz...]

And yet they continue on, disputing him, disagreeing with him, and all... without providing any proof!

I especially like this little gem:

Building 7 fell UNIFORMLY at absolutely the rate of free fall or just SLIGHTLY more than absolute free fall in a complete vacuum.

Impossible, unless it was brought down by explosives. End of story.

Don't make it any more complicated than it needs to be.

Emphasis mine.

MORE than absolute free fall in a complete vacuum ? How could he calculate that ?

How would explosives ACCELERATE the falling debris to that speed ? Again, never adressed. Just assumed. Sheesh.

[Polaris]

I read the full 9/11 commission report. If I remember correctly, it said the initial blast traveled down the shafts and blew the doors off on the sixth level basement and injured people who were in the vicinity.
It would have been following the law of gravity, and it would have simply found the point of least resistance. Must have been one hell of a blast - much bigger than what Loose Change glibly brushes off.

[Belz...]

geggy:

Most people remember traumatic events with far greater clarity than the more mundane occurances. It's a survival mechanism that helps us keep potential dangers at the front of our minds, but unfortunately it's also the cause of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Damn! Beat me to it.

Doubtful, BUT, he can quote Star Wars dialog, so that makes him an expert.

He quoted one WORD: "No".

[Stellafane]

Hi geggy. The agent assigned to watch you has asked that I pass along a request to you: The next time you feel the urge to "master your own domain," if you get my drift, please pull a sheet over yourself. The poor girl couldn't stop giggling and we had to give her the afternoon off.

Oh, and she suggests re-inflating your "wife."

[Belz...]

Also there are numerous reports from firefighters that they heard something exploding inside the building. I'd have my doubts and would believe it was due to the haziness of their memories if there were as little as one or two reports of those who heard the explosions but that's not the case, there are basically too many of them. Every one of the statements are almost in unision of what they had heard.

How can you ignore so casually ALL the evidence that shows that you're wrong and then accept ANY indication that you may be right ?

You need help, man. Speak to your psycho therapist wife. Then again, if she's the one that fed you that kind of hogwash, you might want to get a REAL psi to help you.

[Belz...]

Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?

...th... that wasn't even a sentence!

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, very much like that one.

Oh, I disagree. There are TONS of stupid questions.

Wanna see one ? Here you go:

Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?

[kookbreaker]

OMFG I do believe you're right -- I think I see what might be a glimmer of reason starting to flicker over there.

Problem is, this engineer has likely read the NIST report, but read how the Loosers have deliberately misread it. One of them pulled out the claim that "NIST metallurgical tests say the temps never got above 500 degrees.'

That claim is not true. The tests which, were only done on a small fraction of the metal columns (the ones that could be identified) were done by examining the effects on the paint. Those columns exposed to higher temps had all the paint detroyed and so could not be tested in such a matter.

Seriously, have any of the Loose Changers actually read the work that NIST did? Its not like it is hidden!

[Belz...]

I find your lack of faith . . . disturbing.

Why the hell do I have trouble breathing, right now ?

[steve s]

Pray for me. I just jumped into the fray over there.:eek: :boggled: :D
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4580&st=30#entry4588663

Ninth post down.(how do you link to a single post?)

Steve S.

[steve s]

BTW, I don't know if this site has been linked to here, but I stumbled onto it while Googling. It's got some good summaries of all aspects of the WTC.

Debunking 9-11 Conspiracy Theories. (http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/index.htm)

Steve S.

[kookbreaker]

An interesting post on the BAUTFourm. (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=746514&postcount=172)

Of course, he's obviously yet another government plant.

[karim]

The LC forum mods seem to have backed off a bit if anyone wants in. Maybe because they've gotten more traffic--harder to police--or maybe because they've been getting bad "press" about their heavy-handedness.


I PMd some of the moderators about my posting problems there:
Why do I get a this message when I post "The moderator team needs to review your message before it can be seen". And then I never see any of my posts.

Is this the way to handle critique? If you don't like dissenting voices just delete my account then.



This is the responce from JFK:
Karim, Welcome to the forums.
You should have no problem posting now.

Please keep in mind, Dissent is fine as long as you keep it civil, clean and please do not spam.
We have many young people here. ( 10 and up. )



It is a smart move for them not to ban everybody that disagree. That forum would be too crazy for any new recruits to the cult without sceptics.

[CurtC]

I had what is I think an original thought. CTs are always claiming that there was molten metal in the WTC debris for weeks after the collapse, suggesting to them that thermite was used. While that's not very plausible for other reasons, I think that I can show that long-lasting underground hot spots cannot be due to thermite.

The reason that underground fires can burn for so long is the lack of oxygen, right? The fires can burn only as fast as fresh air can seep in, providing a necessary part of the chemical reaction that is fire.

I just checked, and the thermite reaction does not require oxygen from the air. What happens is that the oxygen atoms in iron oxide leave the iron and bond with the aluminum molecules, which releases lots of heat. No air required. This means that if there were any thermite reactions there, they would have happened immediately, then the heat would have quickly dissipated. Molten metal days later can't be due to thermite reactions.

[CurtC]

karim or dubfan, could someone try to get me (CurtC over there as well) un-suspended? I can't even PM anyone with a suspended account. I was always polite and civil.

[dubfan]

karim or dubfan, could someone try to get me (CurtC over there as well) un-suspended? I can't even PM anyone with a suspended account. I was always polite and civil.

Done. Check your PM.

[karim]

Uh, I just PMd JFK and TheQuest before I noticed that dubfan was on the case before me.

[dubfan]

Interesting thread over there:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=414

Started by a AA (?) Flight Attendant who knew Betty Ong. It is astonishing how much 9/11 conspiracy drivel she debunks in that one thread. She subscribes to the LIHOP theory (i.e., Bush Let It Happen On Purpose) -- so she's not totally dismissed as a shill. But the reluctance to accept her obvious expertise and sincerity are astounding. And she's a conspiracy theorist herself (LIHOP, WTC = controlled demo, Bush knew, etc.)!!!

The treatment she receives there is...breathtaking.

[dubfan]

Uh, I just PMd JFK and TheQuest before I noticed that dubfan was on the case before me.

No prob...the more the merrier. :cool:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Interesting thread over there:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=414

Started by a AA (?) Flight Attendant who knew Betty Ong. It is astonishing how much 9/11 conspiracy drivel she debunks in that one thread. She subscribes to the LIHOP theory (i.e., Bush Let It Happen On Purpose) -- so she's not totally dismissed as a shill. But the reluctance to accept her obvious expertise and sincerity are astounding. And she's a conspiracy theorist herself (LIHOP, WTC = controlled demo, Bush knew, etc.)!!!

The treatment she receives there is...breathtaking.

Oh gawd...

Quoting "Canadian Raven" from that thread:

The only problem I have with the simplest explaination is it doesn't explain how these guys learned how to fly like JAG pilots.
(my emphasis)

"JAG" was a cheesy TV action/drama about a former navy fighter pilot turned lawyer for the JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL 's office.

The show itself was as much a realistic portrayal of the JAG corps as "Lethal Weapon" was about police work. Every bloody week the writers of "JAG" would come up with some outrageuosly contrived excuse to put this LAWYER back into the cockpit of an F-14 that he was technically no longer qualified to fly! One week, he's shooting down terrorist cruise missles aimed at US carriers, the next he's shooting down hijacked cessnas being flown into oil rigs. It's like this LAWYER is the first jet jockey to reach coveted "Ace" status (5+ confirmed air-to-air kills) AFTER taking a desk job!

In the real world of course, there are no JAG pilots. Though there are likely members of the JAG corps who have pilot certifications, however they probably only get stick time in front of thier PC's at home.

When we're dealing with people who take ridiculously contrived hollywood fantasies as accurate depictions of the real world, is it any wonder they fall so easily for these retardedly illogical conspiracy theories?

[Ramooone]

Interesting thread over there:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=414

Started by a AA (?) Flight Attendant who knew Betty Ong. It is astonishing how much 9/11 conspiracy drivel she debunks in that one thread. She subscribes to the LIHOP theory (i.e., Bush Let It Happen On Purpose) -- so she's not totally dismissed as a shill. But the reluctance to accept her obvious expertise and sincerity are astounding. And she's a conspiracy theorist herself (LIHOP, WTC = controlled demo, Bush knew, etc.)!!!

The treatment she receives there is...breathtaking.

she did have a good line though
"The truth is like iodine, it only hurts when it's helping."

[Alphaba]

geggy, where does this "frontal lobe"/"amnesia" BS come from?
He can't remember.

Something whith his frontal lobe hippocampus after the cognitive and emotional overload induced by him posting in this thread and receiving logically well-formulated answers ultimately grounded in evidence, expertise, and even, *shock* commonsense.

[bob_kark]

I had what is I think an original thought. CTs are always claiming that there was molten metal in the WTC debris for weeks after the collapse, suggesting to them that thermite was used. While that's not very plausible for other reasons, I think that I can show that long-lasting underground hot spots cannot be due to thermite.

The reason that underground fires can burn for so long is the lack of oxygen, right? The fires can burn only as fast as fresh air can seep in, providing a necessary part of the chemical reaction that is fire.

I just checked, and the thermite reaction does not require oxygen from the air. What happens is that the oxygen atoms in iron oxide leave the iron and bond with the aluminum molecules, which releases lots of heat. No air required. This means that if there were any thermite reactions there, they would have happened immediately, then the heat would have quickly dissipated. Molten metal days later can't be due to thermite reactions.

That fits in with the article I linked back on post 4039 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1641289&postcount=4039). Every time they would clear the debris, the fires would flare up again once the hot spots were exposed to more oxygen.

[Belz...]

Pray for me. I just jumped into the fray over there.:eek: :boggled: :D
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4580&st=30#entry4588663

Ninth post down.(how do you link to a single post?)

Steve S.

"The only buildings in history that collapsed due to fire are WTC1, 2 and 7"

Really ? I thought fully-loaded airliners crashed into them... Silly me.

[Belz...]

Just had a thought.

Saying that the fact that Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to go to war proves he was involved in the terrorist attack is akin to saying that thieves who looted New Orleans caused the flooding.

[kookbreaker]

I had what is I think an original thought. CTs are always claiming that there was molten metal in the WTC debris for weeks after the collapse, suggesting to them that thermite was used. While that's not very plausible for other reasons, I think that I can show that long-lasting underground hot spots cannot be due to thermite.

The reason that underground fires can burn for so long is the lack of oxygen, right? The fires can burn only as fast as fresh air can seep in, providing a necessary part of the chemical reaction that is fire.

I just checked, and the thermite reaction does not require oxygen from the air. What happens is that the oxygen atoms in iron oxide leave the iron and bond with the aluminum molecules, which releases lots of heat. No air required. This means that if there were any thermite reactions there, they would have happened immediately, then the heat would have quickly dissipated. Molten metal days later can't be due to thermite reactions.

I think someone suggested something like this at the BAUTforum. I'm pretty sure it was in the 'Scholars for 911 truth website opens' topic. That one got pretty long as well, though.

Edit to add: Starts here with Chainsaw's post: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=37585&page=34

[NoZed Avenger]

Why the hell do I have trouble breathing, right now ?

The ability to destroy a building is insignificant next to the power of this farce.

[karim]

The ability to destroy a building is insignificant next to the power of this farce.
Yes but, Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise.

[karim]

TheQuest from LC forum send me this PM:


Karim,

curtc has been unsuspended.

Thanks for your patience.

[Regnad Kcin]

Interesting thread over there:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=414

Started by a AA (?) Flight Attendant who knew Betty Ong. It is astonishing how much 9/11 conspiracy drivel she debunks in that one thread. She subscribes to the LIHOP theory (i.e., Bush Let It Happen On Purpose) -- so she's not totally dismissed as a shill. But the reluctance to accept her obvious expertise and sincerity are astounding. And she's a conspiracy theorist herself (LIHOP, WTC = controlled demo, Bush knew, etc.)!!!

The treatment she receives there is...breathtaking.I can only read so much on that forum (usually only a few posts) because, like the proverbial guy who beats his head against the wall, it feels so good when I stop.

Never mind the flight attendant is credulous regarding these events; I won't get into her errors and lack of critical thinking. But this response to her may just top anything I've seen over there:

I wanted to say that just by being here [Ms. Flight Attendant], you make a fantastic contribution to the dialogue. This forum needs lots of diverse opinions and criticisms. Please stick to your guns, read a lot, and spread the word about LooseChange911 around to American Airlines and other air personnel you know -- the more airline industry people, FAA, ATC, who can bring enlightenment on both technical and human issues, the better the discussion!"This forum needs lots of diverse opinions and criticisms...enlightenment on both technical and human issues." Words fail me.

[dubfan]

I can only read so much on that forum (usually only a few posts) because, like the proverbial guy who beats his head against the wall, it feels so good when I stop.

Never mind the flight attendant is credulous regarding these events; I won't get into her errors and lack of critical thinking. But this response to her may just top anything I've seen over there:

"This forum needs lots of diverse opinions and criticisms...enlightenment on both technical and human issues." Words fail me.

That thread sums up the 9/11 conspiracy movement for me. It's all there in a nutshell.

I know what you mean about that forum, too. I actually had to SKIP OVER the CTs who were responding to her. If you read the thread and only look at her replies...you can see how absolutely insane this whole thing is. I am baffled at why it is spreading and taking root in people, and just like Manny & Chipmunk, it's long lost any comedic value for me. I think it's a real problem. In some warped way I feel like it's a civic duty to be over there.

[Polaris]

Interesting thread over there:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=414

Started by a AA (?) Flight Attendant who knew Betty Ong. It is astonishing how much 9/11 conspiracy drivel she debunks in that one thread. She subscribes to the LIHOP theory (i.e., Bush Let It Happen On Purpose) -- so she's not totally dismissed as a shill. But the reluctance to accept her obvious expertise and sincerity are astounding. And she's a conspiracy theorist herself (LIHOP, WTC = controlled demo, Bush knew, etc.)!!!

The treatment she receives there is...breathtaking.

Makes the mind boggle how someone can see through the layers of sedimented BS regarding the Pentagon crash, but still be taken in by the WTC controlled-demolition garbage. That guy who does the Pentagonresearch.com website, which thoroughly debunks the "no plane" malarkey (I'm running out of synonyms for BS) is the same guy who thoroughly believes the WTC was blown up by Bush.

[DavidJames]

The only problem I have with the simplest explaination is it doesn't explain how these guys learned how to fly like JAG pilots.Like I've been saying, everything these children have learned, they learned from TV and movies.

[dubfan]

I'm sure everyone here saw this coming:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4624

Time to brush up on your video & image processing skillZ.

[brodski]

I'm sure everyone here saw this coming:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4624

Time to brush up on your video & image processing skillZ.
What is it with physicists?

[Shrinker]

A whole lot of words where 'compression artifacts' would have sufficed.

[Regnad Kcin]

...I know what you mean about that forum, too. I actually had to SKIP OVER the CTs who were responding to her. If you read the thread and only look at her replies...you can see how absolutely insane this whole thing is. I am baffled at why it is spreading and taking root in people, and just like Manny & Chipmunk, it's long lost any comedic value for me. I think it's a real problem. In some warped way I feel like it's a civic duty to be over there.I know if I were to post there it would be fairly easy to do. I'd simply compose the following, save it, and copy 'n paste the message each time I wished to contribute:

Dear 9/11 conspiracy theorists,

You're 100% wrong.

Love,

RK

[RayG]

The only problem I have with the simplest explaination is it doesn't explain how these guys learned how to fly like JAG pilots.

He needs to explain WHY these guys would have to learn to fly like JAG pilots. There was no take-off or landing experience required, they hijacked the planes AFTER they were airborne. Hell, even ~I~ have flown a plane after it's in the air, and I've had no pilot training whatsoever.

RayG

[Sword_Of_Truth]

He needs to explain WHY these guys would have to learn to fly like JAG pilots. There was no take-off or landing experience required, they hijacked the planes AFTER they were airborne. Hell, even ~I~ have flown a plane after it's in the air, and I've had no pilot training whatsoever.

RayG

AAARGH!! There are NO JAG pilots in the real world! That was a gawddamn TV show!

Sorry, man. It just WE need to get our crap straight. If for nothing else than our own knowledge that we did.

[RayG]

Can I get a list of people from this forum who were physically at the crash sites?

One of the best questions I seen yet over on that Loose Cannon webforum.

RayG

[aggle-rithm]

I can only read so much on that forum (usually only a few posts) because, like the proverbial guy who beats his head against the wall, it feels so good when I stop.

Never mind the flight attendant is credulous regarding these events; I won't get into her errors and lack of critical thinking. But this response to her may just top anything I've seen over there:

"This forum needs lots of diverse opinions and criticisms...enlightenment on both technical and human issues." Words fail me.

Here's the interesting thing with that flight attendant: Her inside knowledge of the airline industry allows her to see through a lot of the absurd hypothoses put forward by those who don't have the expertise to discern whether they are plausible or not.

However, she fails to see that her own lack of training in engineering, physics, etc., might possibly, just possibly, prevent her from being able to make a sound judgement on whether the buildings could have collapsed from a plane impact/fire alone.

Selective intellect is fascinating. But mildly disturbing.

[aggle-rithm]

Can I get a list of people from this forum who were physically at the crash sites?


I think the problem is that there tends to be an inverse relationship between the usefulness of a person in society and their distance from some of the most dynamic, cutting-edge business and military activity in the world.

Translation: No, none of the Loosers were anywhere NEAR those sites.

[Belz...]

Yes but, Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise.

Now try to imagine how poor marksmen these Tusken raiders must be!!

[Belz...]

He needs to explain WHY these guys would have to learn to fly like JAG pilots. There was no take-off or landing experience required, they hijacked the planes AFTER they were airborne. Hell, even ~I~ have flown a plane after it's in the air, and I've had no pilot training whatsoever.

RayG

It's possible that any one of us here could have rammed these jets in the WTC if we had hijacked it. For some reason, someone over at the CT crowd thinks that in order to use a jet as a ram you've got to pilot it as though yo were planning to land it, eventually...

[aggle-rithm]

It's possible that any one of us here could have rammed these jets in the WTC if we had hijacked it. For some reason, someone over at the CT crowd thinks that in order to use a jet as a ram you've got to pilot it as though yo were planning to land it, eventually...

To be absolutely fair, I've seen from several credible sources that airliners are difficult to handle at high speeds near the ground because of the greater air pressure -- they just aren't designed to go full speed except at high altitude.

However, in answer to the CT question "how is it possible"...

THEY WENT TO FLIGHT SCHOOL.

[WildCat]

To be absolutely fair, I've seen from several credible sources that airliners are difficult to handle at high speeds near the ground because of the greater air pressure -- they just aren't designed to go full speed except at high altitude.

However, in answer to the CT question "how is it possible"...

THEY WENT TO FLIGHT SCHOOL.
I think more recent estimates of the speed of the plane that hit the Pentagon are ~350 mph.

Ever wonder why they crashed into the side of the Pentagon? Seems to me that far more damage could have been done by hitting the roof at a low angle. But this would require a high degree of piloting skill, far easier to just maintain a low altitude and hit the side.

[Manny]

I think more recent estimates of the speed of the plane that hit the Pentagon are ~350 mph.

Ever wonder why they crashed into the side of the Pentagon? Seems to me that far more damage could have been done by hitting the roof at a low angle. But this would require a high degree of piloting skill, far easier to just maintain a low altitude and hit the side.And just to pile on, what do the CTers suppose would happen if a mediocre pilot tried to operate a jet at cruising speed at very low altitudes. I'm not an expert and I'll certainly defer to any experienced pilots, but my guess is that he would very quickly, well, crash.

[Hutch]

Well, just applied for registration. Not that I can provide much, but there is a thread by sun zoo that talks about the subsitution of the United flight that hit the South Tower with a "Government" subsitution.

I have a few helpful words that may assist Mr. Zoo in his quest...

Don't expect a lot from me there, but Hutch is now engaging...once I'm registered, that is...

[Project86]

I have been in an ongoing debate over at a computer hardware forum. I've got a semi-literate (at least more so than the LC forum people) guy who just keeps on going, and the conspiracy is getting even bigger. He is now throwing around names like Mineta (and his "suppressed testimony" implicating cheney), Sibel Edmonds (and her gag orders), the "Able Danger" coverup... He is throwing around so many conspiracies that I can't keep up! So here I am trying to be reasonable with him, and I have to google these people just to find out why/how they relate... which of course only brings up more CT sites!

I'll quote him so you can see what kind of yahoo I'm dealing with:
"The very fact that our government REFUSES to acknowledge a single explosion means they have something to hide. 3 huge explosions (corroborated by numerous witnesses) before WTC1 came down (not to mention many more before WTC2), and none of them are acknolwedged by the government? Cover-up."
*Note the post also contains the ubiquitous smily faces and thumbs downs that these guys like so much.

More:
"Who says the engineers are in on it? They've been given an outcome, and are told to derive a model based on the assumption the towers came down due to fires. Again, no demolition model has been presented even with all the evidence pointing towards demolition (lower level demolition flashes, pryoclastic dust clouds, HUGE pre collapse explosions, earthquake type rumbles before the collapses started, molten steel due to possible thermite usage, etc)."

I don't know if it is even worth it to continue with this guy, but he is being nice and civil, so I'll try.

[steve s]

and I have to google these people just to find out why/how they relate...

They don't relate. The CTers just throw out a rapid fire burst of questions. As soon as you start to answer one they just throw out another. They're not interested in hearing the answers.

Steve S.

[Kevin_Lowe]

I think more recent estimates of the speed of the plane that hit the Pentagon are ~350 mph.

Ever wonder why they crashed into the side of the Pentagon? Seems to me that far more damage could have been done by hitting the roof at a low angle. But this would require a high degree of piloting skill, far easier to just maintain a low altitude and hit the side.

Actually, I'm no expert but I figure it would have been easier just to nose-dive somewhere into the middle of the Pentagon.

My guess is that hitting the outer wall was deliberate, and done for propaganda purposes. They wanted the world to see a big damn hole in the side of the Pentagon, not a little pillar of smoke from somewhere inside.

That's just empty theorising though.

[CurtC]

The LCers however say that flight 77 going in low, clipping light poles on the way, would be very difficult to do. Yes, it may be difficult if that's what you're trying to do, but what makes them think that was the intent? It seems more likely that he was wanting to hit the Pentagon in a dive, but came in too low, but managed to keep from crashing into the ground just barely.

[Polaris]

The LCers however say that flight 77 going in low, clipping light poles on the way, would be very difficult to do. Yes, it may be difficult if that's what you're trying to do, but what makes them think that was the intent? It seems more likely that he was wanting to hit the Pentagon in a dive, but came in too low, but managed to keep from crashing into the ground just barely.

I think your explanation is more plausible, considering that Hanjour missed the Pentagon in the first place and had to turn around.

If he'd been a better pilot, he'd probably have done more damage (and possibly annihilated Rumsfeld) than he did, as he only hit the reenforced side.

[OMGturt1es]

well now THIS is getting interesting...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4663

:o

[Sword_Of_Truth]

well now THIS is getting interesting...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4663

:o

WOW... it took them a whole 9 posts for someone to pop up and accuse the jews (Mossad, Isreali intelligence). They're getting better at holding back thier darker urges. :p

[WildCat]

Actually, I'm no expert but I figure it would have been easier just to nose-dive somewhere into the middle of the Pentagon.
Not true! You have to have the attack angle just right to do that, off by just a little and you miss. That would take the same skill set as landing a plane, and we all know that was the part this hijacker had trouble w/. Much easier to ram into the side of a building.

[WildCat]

well now THIS is getting interesting...

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4663

:o
You mean the way they misspell Cheney and Rumsfeld in the first 2 posts? :p

[Ramooone]

You mean the way they misspell Cheney and Rumsfeld in the first 2 posts? :p

well, thats what happens when you get a bunch of brainwashed 12yr olds who can't spell yet but know the physics and techniques of building demolition and collapse.

[Hutch]

Well, I just made my first post over there, trying to 'help' Sun Zoo with his Boeing subsitution hypothesis, by politiely pointing out that (1) The US Government hasn't bought any 767 Tankers yet and (2) That all the Boeing 767-300 aircraft are apparently accounted for.

I did leave him some outs, I will be most interested in seeing which ones he takes.

PS-who is 'idonteatdeadpuppies' here in the real world of JREF?

[60hzxtl]

Maybe they made a plane that looked like a 767, but didn't act like a 767, and then made few extra ones as part of a conspiracy.

nah, they'd never get the sarcasm.

[Gravy]

Well, I just made my first post over there, trying to 'help' Sun Zoo with his Boeing subsitution hypothesis, by politiely pointing out that (1) The US Government hasn't bought any 767 Tankers yet and (2) That all the Boeing 767-300 aircraft are apparently accounted for.
Where's that thread?

[Gravy]

According to his blog, Dylan Avery is to be on New York's WBAI radio show "Wake Up Call" on Monday morning, May 22 at around 7:00. I've emailed the producers about looking at Avery's claims critically, and I encourage you to do the same.

producers@wakeupcallradio.org
comments@wakeupcallradio.org
Phone 212-400-7458

WBAI is at 99.5 FM

[dubfan]

Well, I just made my first post over there, trying to 'help' Sun Zoo with his Boeing subsitution hypothesis, by politiely pointing out that (1) The US Government hasn't bought any 767 Tankers yet and (2) That all the Boeing 767-300 aircraft are apparently accounted for.

I did leave him some outs, I will be most interested in seeing which ones he takes.

PS-who is 'idonteatdeadpuppies' here in the real world of JREF?

Don't know...but I think justthefactsmaam is Manny. Manny, is that you?

[Hutch]

Where's that thread?

Right here;

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4538

No reply to date. We shall see.

[Gravy]

Right here;
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4538
No reply to date. We shall see.
I find myself not facing the computer monitor directly when i go the LC site, as if I'm hand shy from being slapped by so much stupidity.

Sun Zoo is now at the top of my list of the dumbest people on earth.
And so this plane was a high precision design engineered missile-drone firing a missile at entry, in order so that the planes gushing contents (cargo/tanker) would meet up with an expanding FAE warhead detonation, so that the whole thing would produce the massive fireball observed, projected outside of the building, through the bombed out holes, for the greatest possible pyrotechnic, shock and awe, theatrical display, and do so within seconds.

[Hutch]

Gravy, Sun Zoo has replied and I have responded--we will see his response, but I find his POV not compelling...

Quote by Sun Zoo on Loose Change:

. Bottom line, I do not have to prove unequivocally what it was, but only what it was not (flight 175) to prove, once again that 9/11 really was an inside job, and that this aircraft was in fact a remotely piloted drone aircraft, most certainly design engineered for maximal pyrotechnic shock and awe viewing horror Italics are mine.

Hutch's quote in response:

I respectfully disagree. You quote Abraham Lincoln in your signature; allow me to borrow from him also. During the Civil War, Lincoln had more than a little trouble with a General named McClellan; but he retained him in command even when many others wanted him out. When one Congressman demanded that Lincoln replace him, Lincolln asked him "Who would you have me replace him with?" The congressman replied "Anybody". "Anybody may be fine for you, said Lincoln, "but I must have somebody."

My point is, you can say that if it is not Flt 175, then "anybody" will do. I must needs argue that, like Lincoln, I must have "Somebody"

Thoughtfully yours, hutch

[Gravy]

My point is, you can say that if it is not Flt 175, then "anybody" will do. I must needs argue that, like Lincoln, I must have "Somebody"
Very nice. Habeus Boeingus.

[Regnad Kcin]

Sun Zoo @ Loose Change: "Bottom line..."
Am I the only one amused by constructions such as "end of story," "case closed," "bottom line," as well as the emphatic, "period" when discussing this topic?

Petulance: you've gotta earn it, bucko!

[Manny]

Don't know...but I think justthefactsmaam is Manny. Manny, is that you?My name's Friday - I'm a cop.

[Gravy]

My name's Friday - I'm a cop.
I can attest that you are an excellent Manny Friday.

btw: what's with the capital M?

[Hutch]

I am having a little trouble with the picture analysis over there--you know, where he claims the plane is too long to be United 175--Gravy, is there any good rebuttal or professional photog that can help? I am also going to try the BAUT, they have some semi-pro photographers there.

[aggle-rithm]

WOW... it took them a whole 9 posts for someone to pop up and accuse the jews (Mossad, Isreali intelligence). They're getting better at holding back thier darker urges. :p

What...no National Geographic?

[NoZed Avenger]

I am having a little trouble with the picture analysis over there--you know, where he claims the plane is too long to be United 175--Gravy, is there any good rebuttal or professional photog that can help? I am also going to try the BAUT, they have some semi-pro photographers there.

The few picture "analyses" I have seen fail to make any allowances for the angle of the plane as compared to the camera. They all just assume that the plane is magically 90 degrees from it and proceed accordingly. Maddening.

[milesalpha]

Sun Zoo's closing paaragraph in his latest post. I near broke down laughing.


"Now for anyone who's tempted to post and say simply "I don't believe in the pod" because you think that believing in the "pod" is uncouth, or that the consensus has already formed about this within the 9/11 truth movement on-line community, that there is no pod, save it, alright?
We're not looking for "opinions" here. This is a search for truth, based on clear eyed analysis and reason, taking the entire rational framework and all phenomenon and information, including everything that's been presented so far, into consideration."

[Pardalis]

"[...] based on clear eyed analysis and reason, taking the entire rational framework and all phenomenon and information, including everything that's been presented so far, into consideration."

Could someone ask Sun Zoo WTF he's talking about?

What a waste of human intellect.

[Tirdun]

Could someone ask Sun Zoo WTF he's talking about?

Methinks he's slipping into a skeptic's lab coat while tucking his magic wand into a drawer.

[Hellbound]

Methinks he's slipping into a skeptic's lab coat while tucking his magic wand into a drawer.

I don't think that's a magic wand he's holding, although I have heard it called that before...

You know, I seriously wonder about statements like his.

Is he actually being rational, but just starting with a different (and incorrect) set of axioms?

Does he think he's being rational, but not understand what rational means?

Is he being irrational and just trying to gain the veneer of rationality?

There might be some interesting psychology in here, if anyone's needing a thesis topic :)

[karim]

Could someone ask Sun Zoo WTF he's talking about?

What a waste of human intellect.


Seems like the globalist plan of dumbing people down is working.

[Pardalis]

I guess geggy's theory of amnesia is from the frontal lobe trauma caused by our hand slapping our forehead in disbelief.

[Pardalis]

I'm rereading Sun Zoo (with my hand to my forehead). Have you noticed he's talking to himself?

Sun Zoo dialogue:

"But Sun, how can you prove no one was aboard that plane?"

Because it was not flight 175.

"Then what was it?"

A reconfigured and re-engineered military variant, of the Boeing 767, almost CERTAINLY a Tanker Transport or something very similar, for maximal global psy-op "shock and awe" viewing horror.

"Why?"

To create a plausible suspension of disbelief as to the cause of the near free fall total destruction of the twin towers (plane strike and fire).

"So this "theory" or proof as you call it, relates to the proof that the buildings were brought down in an intentional demolition by explosives, and NOT as a direct result of the plane strikes and fires?"

Yes, very much so. You see, if it can be proven well beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever, that the buildings did NOT "fall" (explode) as a result of the plane strike and fire, then by an extension of logical, deductive reasoning, the observations about this plane (proportion, anomalies), what it does, and what it produces must be examined in a totally different contextual frame of reference.

"That makes a lot of sense Sun."

Yes, it certainly does, doesn't it?


Scary

[Pardalis]

I like this bit: "the observations about this plane (proportion, anomalies), what it does, and what it produces must be examined in a totally different contextual frame of reference."

In other words, "fantasy world contextual frame of reference":

Thus, I've concluded that the "flame/flash" was in fact a FAE (fuel air explosive) warhead missile, firing in just ahead of the plane for the plane to meet up with, head on, as it impacted and penetrated into the building.

[Hellbound]

He obviously has not seen a FAE explode (although I wondered how long it would take for someone to mention FAE's after my earlier postings).

[Gravy]

He obviously has not seen a FAE explode (although I wondered how long it would take for someone to mention FAE's after my earlier postings).
He apparently hasn't even seen the test crash videos in "Loose Change."

[60hzxtl]

Can't see how the losers have not gotten into the Anthrax issue, post 9/11.

I'm hoping they can solve that one with the same vigor they've put into this.

Maybe it's time to plant that spore in a LC forum. . .

[brodski]

I like this bit: "the observations about this plane (proportion, anomalies), what it does, and what it produces must be examined in a totally different contextual frame of reference."

In other words, "fantasy world contextual frame of reference":
Ah, Post Modernism, the first refuge of the reality-impaired pseudo-intellectual. All theories are equally valued (except for the "official" version of course) and all "evidence" must be interpreted as just another social narrative.
It's only a matter of time before someone says that Al Queada may have been behind 9/11, but it's OK, they where only committing mass murder ironically.

[Hellbound]

brodski:

Waiting for the 9/11 as an artistic expression argument, huh?

I still wonder about the psychology behind some of thse ideas. I'm interesting in finding out where the disconnect with reality occurs, and whether the CTers act differently/come up with different theories depending on where the problem is.

For example, one who starts from incorrect axioms (ex: "The government is lying."), would seem to come up with the most obviously silly stuff (there were no planes!! It was preplanned!! The government paid people off!!).

The one with faulty logic would seem to be more prone to the ad-hoc stories (Yeah, you could see a plane, but it was really a missile disguised as a plane...")

And the ones that know they're being irrational would make movies and sell them.