Loose Change

[aggle-rithm]

Sun Zoo's closing paaragraph in his latest post.

....

" This is a search for truth, based on clear eyed analysis and reason, taking the entire rational framework and all phenomenon and information, including everything that's been presented so far, into consideration."

There's a rational framework?!?

I always thought it was a myth!!!

;)

[Pardalis]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4390&st=60

I hadn't come across this thread until now. I like Jenabell's way of thinking: "Safety in numbers is the proven path". If all the lemmings are going in one direction, therefore we should all follow, even if the path leads to our demise (I know the lemming thing is a myth btw).

I like this particular gem: "No see your logic is getting in the way of your assumptions."


edited to correct quote

[chipmunk stew]

Can't see how the losers have not gotten into the Anthrax issue, post 9/11.

I'm hoping they can solve that one with the same vigor they've put into this.

Maybe it's time to plant that spore in a LC forum. . .Funny you should mention that:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4633&view=findpost&p=4600344

[brodski]

brodski:

Waiting for the 9/11 as an artistic expression argument, huh?
hey, it wouldn't be much more ridiculous than many CTs, and a bit more believable than some.

[brodski]

gah- double post

[brodski]

argh triple post, it's a conspiracy I tells ya...

[Hellbound]

argh triple post, it's a conspiracy I tells ya...

They must be on to us!

Initiate plan Omega-3!!

No, that's NOT the one with the fish!!!

[Gravy]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4390&st=60
I like this particular gem: "No see your logic is getting in the way of your assumptions."
I wish I had saved the email I got from a CT, which said something like "You think your [sic] so smart, but all you have is logic."

[Gravy]

They must be on to us! Initiate plan Omega-3!!
Plan Omega-3 initiated, sir! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4995100.stm)

No, that's NOT the one with the fish!!!
Oops. Never mind.

[Twilek]

I wish I had saved the email I got from a CT, which said something like "You think your [sic] so smart, but all you have is logic."

I wish I had taperecorded the time my CT sister yelled at me "Get out of here...I don't want to hear your damn logic!!".

To which I replied "That's the first fact you've uttered all morning." :D

[CurtC]

I am having a little trouble with the picture analysis over there--you know, where he claims the plane is too long to be United 175--Gravy, is there any good rebuttal or professional photog that can help?I made the measurements myself on his picture of the plane that hit the South Tower, and I get similar numbers. He's comparing the distance from the engine nacelle fronts, to the nose of the plane, and comparing that to the distance from the engine fronts to the rear of the wingtips. On a 767-300, the wing is basically the same size, but the fuselage is longer. At the first pass, it does seem that the ratio is much closer to that of a 767-300 instead of the 767-200 that was Flight 175.

The next part I'd like to investigate is the angle of the plane. The way the measurements are done, it's not too sensitive to the bank angle of the plane, but it would be sensitive to whether the nose was closer to the camera than the tail (since the wingtips are much higher than the engines, what with the plane in a high-g bank). If the nose is closer to the camera than the tail, the engine-to-wing distance will be foreshortened, and would tend to make a -200 look more like a -300.

[Hellbound]

Plan Omega-3 initiated, sir! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4995100.stm)


Oops. Never mind.

*sigh*

We'll make do. I need you to go to the Motel 6 in Paris, Texas, and take the Gideon Bible from Room 212. Take it to Cabin 4 in Devil's Den State Park, and place it under the bed.

In exactly two weeks, go back to Cabin 4, and tear out page 307 from the book. Fold it into a paper airplane (standard, nothign fancy) and throw it out the window.

THat should salvage things.

[Hawk one]

[snip]

THat should savage things.

Fixed. :D

[geggy]

Miss me?

Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation

Over 124 million american adults voted in 2004 election.

POCCY!
POCCY!
POCCY!

[Ducky]

geggy: do you know what the "appeal to popularity" logical fallacy is?

[chipmunk stew]

Miss me?

Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation

Over 124 million american adults voted in 2004 election.
Census bureau: over 200 million living American adults.

[Pardalis]

Miss me?

Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation

Over 124 million american adults voted in 2004 election.

POCCY!
POCCY!
POCCY!

Could anyone get more annoying?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehost/888644724450a71ba.jpg

[Gravy]

Miss me?

Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation

Over 124 million american adults voted in 2004 election.

Link to that poll, please?
And an apology for calling me a liar, while you're at it.


edited to fix spelling

[dubfan]

I love all of these calls from the CTs for a "new investigation". WTF? They don't believe common sense, they don't believe logic, they don't believe experts who tell them they're full of isht, WTH should anyone think they'd believe a new investigation? It'll just give them more fodder for more conspiracy BS.

[Pardalis]

I love all of these calls from the CTs for a "new investigation". WTF? They don't believe common sense, they don't believe logic, they don't believe experts who tell them they're full of isht, WTH should anyone think they'd believe a new investigation? It'll just give them more fodder for more conspiracy BS.

And to whom are they asking? The government?

[money]

And to whom are they asking? The government?

I suspect they want a handful of amatuer filmmakers to take care of it...;)

[Beleth]

Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation
What exactly would be investigated?

I mean, the physical evidence is pretty well gone. Wherever it went, be it China or Jersey or that warehouse they put the Ark of the Covenant, the physical evidence has all been moved and cooled.

Videos? That's being done constantly anyway.

Eyewitness testimony? Given that memories change after the fact, these aren't going to be of much use either.

Sekrit gubmint files? If they exist, we'll never see them. Not for another 50 years at least.

So what is left?

[Regnad Kcin]

geggy:

You're 100% wrong.

Love,

RK

[steve s]

I suspect they want a handful of amatuer filmmakers to take care of it...;)

Applicant should be in his early twenties and possess absolutely no experience in the following areas: structural engineering, explosives, demolition,.........

Steve S.

[CurtC]

I am having a little trouble with the picture analysis over there--you know, where he claims the plane is too long to be United 175--Gravy, is there any good rebuttal or professional photog that can help?

I just did my own independent analysis, and posted this at the LC Forum:Sun Zoo, I did my own independent photogrammety with the plane that hit the South Tower. First, I took a picture of the plane from a web site called LibertyThink (http://www.libertythink.com/2004/11/new-york-magazine-photos.html), which appears to be a pro-conspiracy theory site. This is a much higher-resolution picture than the one you're using in your analysis. I rotated it 3 degrees to make the fuselage horizontal, then I drew lines connecting the wingtips and the fronts of the engine nacelles. Then I measured the number of pixels from the tip of the plane's nose, to the engine fronts, and from there back to the wingtips.

Here is my picture:http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/images/175-NEW.jpg

The "A" distance you refer to is 90 pixels, and the "B" distance is 110 pixels, so A is less than B, indicating that it is indeed a 767-200. The ratio of the two measurements is 0.82.

Measurements of this pic: 0.82
Your measurements of NIST pic: 1.04
767-200: 0.95
767-300: 1.11

A further question: why are your measurements and mine so different? I think I know the answer.

By the way, the answer that I think it is, is that my picture was taken from slightly behind the plane, while the one he was using was taken from slightly in front of it. The fact that the wings are pulling a high g-load and flexing upwards would cause the measurements to be off depending on your perspective. For the second-pass approximation, I'd average the two, yielding a ratio of 0.93, which is close enough for government work :D to the 0.95 number, that I'd say this issue is pretty much solved.

[hellaeon]

Like I've been saying, everything these children have learned, they learned from TV and movies.

:boggled:

[Gravy]

"Skeptic Group #2" has been ordered to stay after class by LC forum instructors. Shame on you, group 2!
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4814&view=findpost&p=4680287

[hellaeon]

Wow, I found out the whole roswell incident is true! there are aliens! and their is a ship! And you guys should see the guy in charge of the scientific group in charge down there!

I found the answers in the movie "Independance Day"

I reckon Nasa will use that captured ship when they go back to the moon and mars.

[dubfan]

I just did my own independent analysis, and posted this at the LC Forum:

By the way, the answer that I think it is, is that my picture was taken from slightly behind the plane, while the one he was using was taken from slightly in front of it. The fact that the wings are pulling a high g-load and flexing upwards would cause the measurements to be off depending on your perspective. For the second-pass approximation, I'd average the two, yielding a ratio of 0.93, which is close enough for government work :D to the 0.95 number, that I'd say this issue is pretty much solved.

Is there a pod underneath that airplane? :boxedin:

[Gravy]

Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation
This should come as no surprise to anyone but geggy, but guess who wrote the questions for that poll? The directors of 911truth.org, the same people I emailed this weekend with a copy of my critique of their 99 and 44/100% false literature (see my sig).

And remember their last stab at writing a 9/11 poll, on the eve of the 2004 RNC in New York, the one that asked about the "mysterious and unexplained" collapse of WTC 7?

Yet another steaming pile from geggy.

[chipmunk stew]

"Skeptic Group #2" has been ordered to stay after class by LC forum instructors. Shame on you, group 2!
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4814&view=findpost&p=4680287 The principal thinks we're satanists...are we? :confused:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4772&view=findpost&p=4676297

[Gravy]

The principal thinks we're satanists...are we? :confused:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4772&view=findpost&p=4676297
Well, you can't spell "satanist" without NIST.

[Belz...]

Yes, very much so. You see, if it can be proven well beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever, that the buildings did NOT "fall" (explode) as a result of the plane strike and fire, then by an extension of logical, deductive reasoning, the observations about this plane (proportion, anomalies), what it does, and what it produces must be examined in a totally different contextual frame of reference.

Contextual frame of reference. Not the non-contextual kind, mind you.

[Belz...]

They must be on to us!

Initiate plan Omega-3!!

No, that's NOT the one with the fish!!!

Roger that. Omega initiated.

What ? Abort, you say ?

Well, you see...

[Hutch]

By the way, the answer that I think it is, is that my picture was taken from slightly behind the plane, while the one he was using was taken from slightly in front of it. The fact that the wings are pulling a high g-load and flexing upwards would cause the measurements to be off depending on your perspective. For the second-pass approximation, I'd average the two, yielding a ratio of 0.93, which is close enough for government work :D to the 0.95 number, that I'd say this issue is pretty much solved.

Indeed. Thank you for your good work, Curt. Take two "attaboys" out of petty cash.

Guess I'd better waltz over there this morning, I whacked Sun Zoo pretty hard on the replacement aircraft and you with the analysis, he may have gone into meltdown...

Edited to add: Well, I'm flabergasted; He seems to have backed completely down on his 767-300 contention.

Thank you for your work. It's rendered the 300 observation indeterminate I have to admit.

Nicely done, CurtC.

[Belz...]

Plan Omega-3 initiated, sir! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4995100.stm)

Oops. Never mind.

Dammit, Gravy. Now it's double-initiated.

This'll cost me at least 6000 socks.

[Z]

5,999 socks.

Not that I know what you're talking about, though... no, not at all. Move along... nothing to see here.

[bob_kark]

Dammit, Gravy. Now it's double-initiated.

This'll cost me at least 6000 socks.

Do you people even read the classified ad "help wanted; must speak Mandarin" I take out in every paper in the world each morning? It makes me wonder why I even bother... Don't even get me started on the male enhancement emails I send on a regular basis...

[Gravy]

9-11 Truth Movement Threatened by LC! (http://digitalstyledesigns.com/pages/Thoughts.htm)

May 19, 2006

The 9/11 truth movement is in the midst of a crisis. In contrast to rosy colored scenarios being presented, many of us see that the Loose Change and the no plane at the Pentagon disinformation campaigns clearly threaten the 9/11 truth movement's long term public legitimacy. Other than the leaders who have maintained high standards and principles, this third wave activist truth movement has become nearly unrecognizable from its origins (one main reason why this website's activism photo albums remain protected). I have heard from other credible 9/11 truth activists who feel similarly disheartened. Time will tell and history will be the judge.

Er, can it be they feel threatened because the information they disseminate is LESS accurate than Loose Change? I've downloaded several other pamphlets of theirs, and, yep, they're just as bad as the one I critiqued.

I came across this humorous account (http://www.haloscan.com/comments/dazinith/114601632616311635/#93012) of the premiere of "United 93," at which Manny & I were giving out flyers and CDs with my "LC" rebuttal. The pamphlet this guy was giving out is the one I critiqued. Excerpts from his piece about that night, with my comments in brackets:

Was at the premier tonight at the Zigfeld theatre on 54th St., of the movie "Flt. 93"

...I suppose it must've been a hand picked crowd. Their worst nighmare would've been of some of us 911 Truth people getting a ticket. (Turn it into Rocky Horror Show and act out the parts. Or talk back to the screen - "He'd never say that" Or "********!" or at the end when the narrartor says, ~"And so began the War on Terror." ..."TRAITORS!" [I'm sure the families of victims would have laughed heartily at your frisky frivolity.]

Everybody wants our fliers. [Uh, no. Few people did.]

...The 911 truth folk were barred from the sidewalk in front of the theatre. We were not allowed to flier on that side. There was a "pen" facing the entrance, on the other side of the street (it's is a rather narrow street). A banner was held up reading "Stop the Media 911 Blackout," which of course was not understood by people who are immersed in the dominent paradigm - "'Media Blackout over 911?' What does that mean? What is that for?" Someone approached me, I believe a British reporter, who had that peculiar, for me, lack of understanding of the banner, and wondered if I was part of "that group." - (Because, BTW, I will not enter a pen, so I stood apart from the group.) He said, "That group says the government did it." "Well yes," I replied, "if you look closely at the data, you have to come to that conclusion." He jumped back and scampered across the street, fast, as though I had the plague. [You're certainly a plague vector.]

There was a man there, who did not sign his name to the leaflet he was passing out, who stood toward the back of the line of people entering the theatre - (normally that would've been *my* territory - but hells, after I read his flier, I got freaked out. And chickened out of fliering right next to him. I think our fliers cancelled each other out when right next to each other.)

The whole setting and situation was freaking me out, anyway. Major Propaganda flick. How can they do this? Don't they think anyone is watching?) The man was a ringer for Robert de Niro, only taller and younger [And wealthier and more handsome and the owner of more trendy restaurants]. Les speculated he was his brother. He looked so much like him, you couldn't believe he could be merely a nephew or son. And BTW, Robert de Niro is the founder of this film festival.

I obtained the man's sheet from him, but others couldn't because he wouldn't give it out to any of us, if he knew were were 911 Reality people. He wore a baseball cap and got bored, fairly quickly, of handing out his fliers - it seemed. And just hung around our group. Maybe he had people inside, handing them out there. [My Manny Friday. And it was boring, because so few people were taking their flyers. We only gave info to people who got info from them.]

But really when people left, they were quite open to the fliers. [And to displaying disgust when they saw the content] So the Anti- influences couldn't have worked all that well. The security there didn't like to see that. It seemed I could feel them cringe at our, even minimal, success. I mean, a slip of paper will not compete with a blockbuster Hollywood movie. But many people did seem to want to speak to us. [Uh, no] And didn't hate us.

The man's fliers quoted, out of context, things he'd read about 911 Truth and he provided quotes made by random people off 911 blogs, and specificly, Dylan Avery. I guess he was reading Dylan's blog and knew that Dylan planned to be there, which he was. Dylan later said he confronted the man and said, "Here I am, right in front of you, why don't you tell me face to face what problem you have with me." [I said, "Here's a CD with my 'Loose Change Viewer's Guide.'"] Or somesuch. (Avery will probably tell the story better on his blog. I met him him later nearby and he impressed me as an highly intelligent man.) (But hells, what can you do? Dylan, as of now, made the definitive 911 documentary flick for our age. And for the fiction version of the story: "V for Vendetta" wins.

So maybe this was Dylan's homage - getting picked-on at the opening of the NY film festival, which originated to bring the downtown back from 911 - at the opening of the first major Hollywood flick of 9/11, by a guy who looks like a relative of Robert de Niro! I guess they are jealous of his Underground success?! No surprise there! Avery's tells the most important story there is, for a New Yorker, for an American, for a human being alive in the world today with the Superpower, Imperial wannabe, U.S.A. Avery told the true story. [Was that in the LC "extras?" I didn't see it in the main feature.] What can you do? The true story, especially in this case, is just going to have so much more flavor. They wish they could buy that flavor and sell it back to you, without you knowing what it is.) [I'll know it by its smell.]

...Everyone wanted a copy of the smear-job leaflet to see what hellacious crap it was, so I didn't get to keep one to bring home, but generously gave mine away. Therefore, I can't quote it to you. But if I could, you'd have a big shock and a laugh. The flier didn't address any points, but just smeared the 911 Truth movement - telling people to Beware! It told people they might be approached by us and might even be offered a copy of the terrible insulting movie "Loose Change," which was full of innaccuracies. It said no one in our group cared about the families - (never mind I, myself, lost a best friend, most outstanding person, to the very bottom of North Tower). [Need I remind everyone that these people were PROTESTING at an event attended by the families of vicetims?] It said these ideas were, surprisingly, spreading a lot and that they was especially popular among young men, and were being passed around in schools and on campuses and from off the Internet.

...Anyway Dylan got plenty of footage of the person who was handing this out, and others got the man's pic too. Even I did, but it was a bad shot.

There were a lot of foreign journalists and many interviews with 911 Truth members. Many people I handed out leaflets to were exceptionally kind and sympathetic. We got no harrassment. (Except for the typical abrogation of our rights, by making us stand in a pen and limiting our access to the public, by the police. We couldn't flier the crowd, except as they approached or left the event, not as they stood in line, for the most part. [Boy, that was a short "Media Blackout."]

...The news cameras interviewed a few people as they left, who were somewhat in tears. Everyone looked quite sad or at least subdued and pensive, quiet, upon leaving. Who I saw, with slight tears, were young women. But afterward, almost no one was averse to taking a flier, especially the tasteful and kind one Nick wrote - if approached with kindness and politeness. [I believe he's talking about the flyer that "tastefully" reminded the families of the flight 93 victims that there were no heroes on board.] I wouldn't approach if it would seem like an intrusion. That was what I didn't like about the all men and boys of the group, in the pen, shouting to the crowd across the street. It just didn't seem effective. [It was plenty effective, if their goal was to make people think they were insane douchebags.] And maybe counter-productive.

But they felt the necessity to really protest it. And hells, how can I really blame them. [Like this: "Hey, douchebags! Why don't you show some respect for the victims of 9/11?"] Me, I always say "please" when I ask someone to take my flier and people appreciate that. I am not forcing it upon them. If they say "No," they do so with politeness and with an added "Thank you," because I have asked them with a "Please" and with gentleness.

My friend said the reaction might be different in a place outside of NYC. But here the reaction from the crowd who we *could* reach was very thoughtful and open. It was mostly like a showbiz type gala or celebrity fest - though I couldn't tell who were the celebrities. I wonder if Bloomberg went. I wonder how many conspirators went? ....

[NobbyNobbs]

Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation



At one point, a large number of people thought the Earth was flat. So it must be true.

At one point, a large number of people thought that Apollo drew the sun across the sky with his chariot. So it must be true.

At one point, a large number of people thought that epileptic shock was a sign of being possessed by the devil. So it must be true.

Sorry, Geggy, but numbers of believers are not evidence, despite how much you would like it to be.

[kookbreaker]

I wish I had saved the email I got from a CT, which said something like "You think your [sic] so smart, but all you have is logic."

You need to make a hate-mail page, Gravy.

[aggle-rithm]

Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation



"Of those, 90% changed their minds when they found out they would have to pay for it..."

[Gravy]

Edited to add: Well, I'm flabergasted; He seems to have backed completely down on his 767-300 contention.

Nicely done, CurtC.
Good job there! I'm looking forward to reading Sun Zoo's 'The Art of Backpedaling."

[geggy]

What exactly would be investigated?

I mean, the physical evidence is pretty well gone. Wherever it went, be it China or Jersey or that warehouse they put the Ark of the Covenant, the physical evidence has all been moved and cooled.

Videos? That's being done constantly anyway.

Eyewitness testimony? Given that memories change after the fact, these aren't going to be of much use either.

Sekrit gubmint files? If they exist, we'll never see them. Not for another 50 years at least.

So what is left?

So in your opinion, NIST's soon to be released report of the collapsing of WTC7 will be inconclusive?

Videos of police and firefighter testimony of hearing explosives might be as useful of an evidence as videos of a plane hitting the pentagon?

If the fbi and the cia failed to connect the dots prior to sept 11, how were they able to name 19 hijackers within a week of the attacks? Simply by looking at the passenger manifest including the arab-sounding names? If these names are on the terrorist watch list, how were they able to get in and out of the US with the visa prior to sept 11?

[Sultanist]

Speaking of WTC 7...
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4827

I never thought it possible, but so far it seems the cat's got all their tongues.
Whodathunkit. :D

[CurtC]

Good job there! I'm looking forward to reading Sun Zoo's 'The Art of Backpedaling."His response is fair. He's acknowledged the measurements I made, but hasn't vacated the idea that it was a 767-300 (and therefore couldn't have been flight 175). He's asking for more measurements, and something that won't be affected by perspective like the wingtips being raised up high.

You can read the thread here (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4538&st=60&#entry4687769).

[Gravy]

Speaking of WTC 7...
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4827

I never thought it possible, but so far it seems the cat's got all their tongues.
Whodathunkit. :D
Sultanist, I think when they read "WE NEED TO GET EVERYBODY OUT OF THERE," they thought that meant THEM. They're probably standing outside their homes, waiting for the "all clear."

[Belz...]

So in your opinion, NIST's soon to be released report of the collapsing of WTC7 will be inconclusive?

Videos of police and firefighter testimony of hearing explosives might be as useful of an evidence as videos of a plane hitting the pentagon?

If the fbi and the cia failed to connect the dots prior to sept 11, how were they able to name 19 hijackers within a week of the attacks? Simply by looking at the passenger manifest including the arab-sounding names? If these names are on the terrorist watch list, how were they able to get in and out of the US with the visa prior to sept 11?

Still asking questions, and nothing else, eh, Geggy ?

[geggy]

Still no real answers, eh, Belz?

Speaking of WTC 7...
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4827

I never thought it possible, but so far it seems the cat's got all their tongues.
Whodathunkit. :D

Watch this video and listen closely...I wonder if they were speaking of WTC7 or the towers? I cant seem to make it out.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/firefighters_bomb_in_building.wmv

[Regnad Kcin]

Still no real answers, eh, Belz?Speaking of which, how 'bout a response for this: What do you do for a living?

As for 9/11, there have been countless answers, my little friend. That you, in your infinite density, can't seem to decipher them, does not invalidate even one.

[Gravy]

Still no real answers, eh, Belz?
Funniest quote I have seen all year. Easily.

Here's the first question in the Zogby poll I'm commissioning:

geggy, when will you stop your atrocious and illegal wife-beatings?

A) How can I stop beating my wife? That doesn't make any sense.
B) Maybe soon
C) Right away
D) Those arent beatings, they're controlled demolitions from the top down disguised to look like multiple doorknob contusions.

[Gravy]

Lots of 911 Truthers heve cited Noam Chomsky as an important influence. I wonder if they still do after reading his absolute smackdown of the "9/11 truth Movement." (http://www.gnn.tv/forum/thread.php?id=15518&page=1)

ETA: From a smart man, to one who could probably give geggy a fight for his title (http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=11689): This guy was apparently one of the protestors at the premiere of "United 93." Here's what he lists as "evidence" against the government (emphasis his).
13) The bio of some of the passengers is linked with military-, government and high tech companies. Two of the passengers worked for CENSUS Bureau. The reason of their trip was not disclosed.

[dogjones]

I wonder how long this thread will end up being.

[Regnad Kcin]

What an entertaining thread, Gravy. I enjoyed this bit, early on:

...don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to understand that softly burning skyscrapers don’t collapse at free fall speed into tidy piles of rubble without the aid of explosives. How many times have you seen the collapse of WTC7 on CNN? I also think the attitude of “trust the experts” is elitist...
I encourage this loon to visit his butcher the day he needs a triple bypass.

Oh, and the fires are "softly burning" now? "Tidy piles?"

An infinite number of monkeys pounding away at typewriters 'til the end of time couldn't craft more remarkable idiocy.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...
An infinite number of monkeys pounding away at typewriters 'til the end of time couldn't craft more remarkable idiocy.

I'll have to respectfully disagree on this one ND. They've made it pretty clear on their forums that, at least some of them, view this as a crusade to undermine the gov't and truth be d@mn3d. If they are wrong, and I believe they are, they are detracting from real issues that people should be concerned about regarding the gov't; they are promoting the destablization of the federal infrastructure; and they are aiding (intentionally or not) those that would like to see the collapse of the US.

Unlike moon-hoax theorists, or Area-51 theorists, I don't think the wild conjectures of 9/11 theorists are harmless. Heck, Chomsky said it pretty good:

...
My reasons for giving this low priority are simple: it has been draining enormous energy away from work on far more serious crimes of the administration against the US population and the world (which is why, I suspect, it is getting such a tolerant reception in the mainstream, dramatically different from the hysterical abuse and slanders that are elicited at once by anything directed to real power interests). That would be sufficient reason to give it low priority.

Further reason is that to evaluate the alleged evidence requires the kind of expert knowledge that can’t be picked up from surfing the internet: it requiressubstantial understanding of civil/mechanical engineering, the specific characteristics of the building, evaluation of photos, etc., and I don’t see dropping what I’m doing and taking off a great deal of time to pick up the requisite background and evalute the evidence. And a story will also have to be told about the planes and passengers, the massive cover-up involving huge numbers of people and (miraculously) no leaks, and why the administration would have been so utterly insane as to try something like this (which hasn’t the remotest analogue in history).

But those considerations aside, the vasts amount of energy being poured into this has been quite harmful to activism on serious and urgent issues—hence the relevance of the speculations based on the declassification documents.
...

[Stellafane]

Miss Zogby poll: over 70 million american adults support new 9/11 investigation...

Hmm, would that be the notoriously inaccurate Zogby poll, the one that predicted Kerry would beat Bush in 2004 by a landslide -- on election night, no less? The poll conducted by the man whose brother founded the Arab-American Institute, and thus might have strong motivation for attempting to turn blame for 9/11 away from Arab extremists? (Come on, you CT'ers would be all over that last fact like flies on manure if the situation were reversed.)

Is that the Zogby poll you're referring to, geggy?

[Manny]

Hmm, would that be the notoriously innacurate Zogby poll, the one that predicted Kerry would beat Bush in 2004 by a landslide -- on election night, no less? The poll conducted by the man whose brother founded the Arab-American Institute, and thus might have strong motivation for attempting to turn blame for 9/11 away from Arab extremists? (Come on, you CT'ers would be all over that last fact like flies on manure if the situation were reversed.)

Is that the Zogby poll you're referring to, geggy?Well, one wants to be fair to Mr. Zogby. When he first broke on the scene in a big way it was because he had enormous success in election accuracy -- in particular, he did a better job than others of polling state races. His more recent polls have been somewhat less successful, as noted. But the available evidence indicates that he's a real pollster (at least for the polls his organization authors -- his recent trend of asking whatever idiot questions anyone pays him for and allowing his name to be put on it is extremely troubling) with real credibility.

[Sultanist]

Still no real answers, eh, Belz?



Watch this video and listen closely...I wonder if they were speaking of WTC7 or the towers? I cant seem to make it out.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/firefighters_bomb_in_building.wmv


Someone posted that video link to a thread on the IIDB forum, geggy.
I had the same question.
It's obviously video of 7 and since that audio accompanies it I would expect they're talking about 7 too. I asked the poster where he got it from hoping
that would help me try to verify that. But so far he hasn't replied.

By the way, the original poster's intent in posting that video was to show us the fire must have been more extensive than the woo-woo's wanna accept because how in the hell else could it produce that much smoke.

[Trifikas]

An infinite number of monkeys pounding away at typewriters 'til the end of time couldn't craft more remarkable idiocy.

Really? I Estimate the arguments from them at around 8 monkeys, 12 minutes.

[Sultanist]

My mistake, geggy. I thought you were posting the same video link I posted to the Loose Change forum.
This one...
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4827

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well, one wants to be fair to Mr. Zogby. When he first broke on the scene in a big way it was because he had enormous success in election accuracy -- in particular, he did a better job than others of polling state races. His more recent polls have been somewhat less successful, as noted. But the available evidence indicates that he's a real pollster (at least for the polls his organization authors -- his recent trend of asking whatever idiot questions anyone pays him for and allowing his name to be put on it is extremely troubling) with real credibility.

Do we have access to the poll's details? The exact Q's and A's. The actual number of particpants? How they extrapolated the answers? etc

[Abbyas]

I myself would love to see the questions.

I can't help but think that a chunk of those people who'd like to see 9/11 reopened want to do so because they think the government ignored evidence of an impending attack not because they think the government took the towers down.

[azazal]

Ahhh, the thread the won't die. Here I go and leave for a few days vacation, come back and I see that the CTers are still kicking out the same BS as before.

Ok, let me get my popcorn and then it's back to watching the smackdown

[Kent1]

A couple points. In the Zogby poll, only 18.8% percent that thought the media was doing a poor job. So I'm guessing only a fraction of that believes in LIHOP and MIHOP theories. The info is at the 911truth (dot) org site

Also Salon has a great new article.

www (dot) salon (dot) com/tech/col/smith/2006/05/19/askthepilot186/index (dot) html

[chipmunk stew]

A couple points. In the Zogby poll, only 18.8% percent that thought the media was doing a poor job. So I'm guessing only a fraction of that believes in LIHOP and MIHOP theories.

Also Salon has a great new article.

www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/05/19/askthepilot186/index.html (http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/05/19/askthepilot186/index.html) (completed link)

[geggy]

Zogby's final report here...

http://www.911truth.org/images/911TruthZogbyPollFinalReport.htm

[Regnad Kcin]

An infinite number of monkeys pounding away at typewriters 'til the end of time couldn't craft more remarkable idiocy.
I'll have to respectfully disagree on this one ND. They've made it pretty clear on their forums that, at least some of them, view this as a crusade to undermine the gov't and truth be d@mn3d. If they are wrong, and I believe they are, they are detracting from real issues that people should be concerned about regarding the gov't; they are promoting the destablization of the federal infrastructure; and they are aiding (intentionally or not) those that would like to see the collapse of the US.

Unlike moon-hoax theorists, or Area-51 theorists, I don't think the wild conjectures of 9/11 theorists are harmless...I'm not certain why you disagree with my light-hearted conjecture.

Also, for the record, I never suggested CTers are "harmless."

[Regnad Kcin]

Zogby's final report here...The "question" is, why are you?

[pgwenthold]

A couple points. In the Zogby poll, only 18.8% percent that thought the media was doing a poor job. So I'm guessing only a fraction of that believes in LIHOP and MIHOP theories. The info is at the 911truth (dot) org site

Also Salon has a great new article.

www (dot) salon (dot) com/tech/col/smith/2006/05/19/askthepilot186/index (dot) html

How do I see the rest of the article? I watched the ad and got back there by navigating from the front page, but it is still hidden.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I'm not certain why you disagree with my light-hearted conjecture.

Also, for the record, I never suggested CTers are "harmless."

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you suggested/thought/etc they are harmless. Mea culpa for lack of clarity on my part. In rereading your post, and those before and after, I would agree that some levity needed to be injected into the thread. I guess I get a little too ramped up jumping between here and LCf. :boxedin:

[Regnad Kcin]

No prob. Next time we meet in the secret underground lair, I shall treat you to a frothy brew as we cackle gleefully amid our subserviant wenches. Huzzah!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

No prob. Next time we meet in the secret underground lair, I shall treat you to a frothy brew as we cackle gleefully amid our subserviant wenches. Huzzah!

Wait... I thought the volcano lair was next on the circuit? Did I miss a memo?

[Kent1]

How do I see the rest of the article? I watched the ad and got back there by navigating from the front page, but it is still hidden.
I don't know. It worked for me after I watched the full ad by clicking on the sponsor link.

[Hellbound]

Wait... I thought the volcano lair was next on the circuit? Did I miss a memo?

No, you didn't. Everyone is one adifferent lair schedule for meetings, so we won't all be caught in the same place, you know.

By the way, the teleporters are working again.

[aggle-rithm]

geggy:


26. Some people say that so many unanswered questions about 9/11 remain that Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success. Other people say the 9/11 attacks were thoroughly investigated and that any speculation about US government involvement is nonsense. Who are you more likely to agree with?


I assume this is the part of the poll you were referring to.

The way the question is worded is crucial. In a complex and long-winded question like this, people tend to focus on the last part of the question. They would hear the question as:


People say the 9/11 attacks were thoroughly investigated and that any speculation about US government involvement is nonsense. Do you agree with them?


A knee-jerk reaction of someone who doesn't trust the current administration would be "no". If the first part of the question was placed last, they would have heard it as:


People say that Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks to find whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success.


I have a feeling the answer to this would be "no" in the overwhelming majority, because it sounds paranoid and flakey. Very few people would want to go out on a limb to agree with this part of the question, in my opinion (not even the CT's will come right out and say, "The government was involved", they just "ask questions"). They wouldn't have any trouble disagreeing with the other part of the question, though.

[Twilek]

So a few days ago there was a letter in the Montreal Gazette from some guy about the release of the Pentagon video. Classic stuff: "what happened to the wings, where's the bodies, where's the plane, where's the debris...mounds of evidence out there on Google...very compelling" blah blah blah.

Today they printed a response:

In response to Mr. B's questions regarding the crash of Flight 77 into the Pentagon ("Let the 9/11 conspiracy theories abound", May 18): all of his questions have been answered quite thoroughly many times over, and are also available on the Internet.

People might want to start by googling "Moussaoui Trial Evidence" and look at the pictures of the rubble, airplane debris and, yes, bodies.

There's also 911myths.com and Popular Mechanics among many, many others.

It would take thousands of people to pull off such a conspiracy and its cover-up aftermath. The odds against every single one of them keeping his or her mouth shut are impossibly high.

That would be me.

Wow...I've never been published before. :blush:

[CurtC]

I've done a new analysis of the length of the plane that hit the South Tower, posted here at the LC Forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4538&view=findpost&p=4692405). I compared the length of the plane in a photo to the width of the Tower, compensating for the different viewing angles, and came up with a length for the plane of 159 feet. By the way, the length of a 767-200 is 159 feet, a 767-300 is 180 feet. Sun Zoo is having a hard time letting go of his dearly-held belief that it was a -300 that hit the tower.

[Gravy]

Today they printed a response:
That would be me.
Wow...I've never been published before. :blush:
An auspicious beginning! Of course you included the coded message?

[Kent1]

Another interesting note, check out the education breakdown vs believing in cover up/need new investigation.

The less education you have, the more likely you believe there's a cover up.
See the DistributionByCategory pdf

[Twilek]

Of course. :cool:

[Pardalis]

Zogby's final report here...

http://www.911truth.org/images/911TruthZogbyPollFinalReport.htm

from your link:


23. Some people have said that the Bush Administration exploited the September 11th attacks to justify the invasion of Iraq. Others say that Bush acted correctly by going into Iraq because Saddam Hussein supported terrorism. Who are you more likely to agree with?

Bush exploited Sept. 11th attacks - 44%

Bush justified an attack on Iraq - 44

Neither/Not sure - 11

First of all, it starts at 23. Is it the 23rd question? What were the 22 first ones? Is 911truth covering up something??

We want all the questions asked.

24. Some people believe that the US government and its 9/11 Commission concealed or refused to investigate critical evidence that contradicts their official explanation of the September 11th attacks, saying there has been a cover-up. Others say that the 9/11 Commission was a bi-partisan group of honest and well-respected people and that there is no reason they would want to cover-up anything. Who are you more likely to agree with?

US government and 9/11 Commission are NOT covering up - 48%

US government and 9/11 Commission are covering up - 42

Not sure - 10


Now "covering up" doesn't imply they were in on the attacks. They say they are covering up something.


27. How would you rate the US media's performance regarding 9/11, including their coverage of victim families' unanswered questions, theories that challenged the official account, and how the attacks were investigated?

Good - 33

Fair - 36

Poor - 19

Not sure - 3


Positive - 43%

Negative - 55



Since when "fair" is negative? When something is treated fairly, isn't that positive?

How did they get that 43/55 ratio? I'm no poll expert, but shouldn't they split the "fair" results in two and add the difference equally to the "good" and "poor" results?

It would read:

Positive - 51 %
Negative - 37 %

Is it me or is this last poll not making any sense? If they added the "fair" results to the "poor" results (to make 55% negative), how on earth did 10% got added to the "good" results to make 43% positive? Who are these 10% of people?

[Regnad Kcin]

Of course you included the coded message?No where in Twilek's op-ed do I see "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_decoder_ring) Perhaps the code is in code. Hmmm.

[Hellbound]

No where in Twilek's op-ed do I see "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_decoder_ring) Perhaps the code is in code. Hmmm.

Did you remember it's Tuesday? And since it isn't raining in Zimbabwe, and Johansen had pancakes for breakfast, that means we're on Cypher 3-G.

[Pardalis]

Is it me or is this last poll not making any sense? If they added the "fair" results to the "poor" results (to make 55% negative), how on earth did 10% got added to the "good" results to make 43% positive? Who are these 10% of people?

Sorry to quote myself, I just realised that "negative" and "positive" are the results of the poll, and that the other results are the % of these results. It wasn't very clear.

I still don't understand why "fair" should be interpreted as "negative" tho...

ETA: I reread the whole thing again and I'm still not sure what these sub-results are! Are they the % of each "negative" and "positive", or the % of the overall results to the question? Damn, this thing really isn't clear.

[Belz...]

Still no real answers, eh, Belz?

I'm not in the business of answering rethorical or stupid questions.

[Belz...]

By the way, the teleporters are working again.

Tell that to #54's left arm!!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Tell that to #54's left arm!!

If you would like to do so, I have it. Though, it has come in handy for tying my shoes.

[Hutch]

Well, Curt C is on the 767-200 case and handling it much better than I could ever dream of doing, so I browsed around and found this thread on why it was impossible for Flight 93 to make a deep hole in the ground in PA.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=3014&st=0&#entry4698213

Now I'm pretty sure I have messed up the math (it has been 30 years) but my guess is that nary a one of the LC'ers will be able to make a rational challenge--however, if any of you want to apply better math than I have done, please do so.

[NoZed Avenger]

Wow, I found out the whole roswell incident is true! there are aliens! and their is a ship! And you guys should see the guy in charge of the scientific group in charge down there!

I found the answers in the movie "Independance Day"

I reckon Nasa will use that captured ship when they go back to the moon and mars.


Bwa - ha - ha.

Like NASA has been to the Moon! Good one.

[dubfan]

Can one of the mods here help with this?

A couple of Loose Change forum users are interested in participating in this thread.

Relevant post is here: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4855&view=findpost&p=4701756

[CptColumbo]

Hey,

I was away from my computer for a week, anything interesting get posted?

[Manny]

Yeah. Turns out they were right all along. The Washington Post snuck a reporter into Gitmo and found the flight 93 passengers -- man was Todd Beamer ever pissed! 1,600 firefighters marched on Congress demanding an investigation into the bombs planted at the World Trade Center, and the National Association of Structural Engineers put out a white paper titled No frigging way!. Meanwhile, the Loosers were wrong about one thing. The Pentagon wasn't hit by a cruise missile; in fact it wasn't hit at all. That was just a distraction in which the MSM cooperated. Bush was clueless about all of this, of course, and resigned out of embarrassment when Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice all mysteriously disappeared. Acting President Conyers has promised to get to the bottom of things

[farrisjs]

Man do I love this thread. Good info, good agruments and a few good recipes. I hope the CT and border-line CT are reading this thread an pausing for a few minutes and actually thinking, there some good stuff here.

steve the lurker, keep up the ggod work.

[hellaeon]

I myself would love to see the questions.

I can't help but think that a chunk of those people who'd like to see 9/11 reopened want to do so because they think the government ignored evidence of an impending attack not because they think the government took the towers down.

aiight

[hellaeon]

Bwa - ha - ha.

Like NASA has been to the Moon! Good one.

Well, I seen apollo 13 so I know we got close.
I also seen Xfiles movie recently which helped fill a few gaps for the questions I needed answering from Close encounters of the third kind.

[hellaeon]

I notice the arguements at loose change are being steered by the major players now, less input from hangers on.

[Hutch]

This isn't really 9-11 stuff, but I read this opening post and just had to respond--some levels of stupid I can let go because I'm not equipped to discuss it, but this:

Laos wrote:

Roosevelt wanted in the war, he knew it was just the thing on his big list to get America rolling again since the depression. He had but one problem, the people, and congress, didn't want in on another european massacre. so Roosevelt did a few things behind america's back to get things ready

1. Setup American pilots in China. Japan now had to fight off americans as well as chinese in China when they were attempting to conquor it.

2. blocked Japanese shores and limited ship possibilities. This is the big one, the Japanese seriously were ticked off by these limitations set by U.S. Naval ships in their harbors, so they decided to take off a small group and raid Pearl Harbor, giving Roosevelt a full excuse to enter the U.S. in WWII.

:jaw-dropp

So I just had to go upside his head on that one--hope it doesn't get me in trouble with the Mods..

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4570&st=0&#entry4707900


EDITED TO ADD: Just one other comment now that I've posted in 5-6 threads over there in the past week--is it really that easy? I mean, there is a huge amount I do not know about 9-11 so I try and let those more conversant than I speak to them, but on the ones I have engaged on, a few minutes of thought and work was enough to pretty well wreck their arguments (IMHO of course). Where are the foemen worthy of my steel? (heated and shaped, but not hot enough to break).

[OMGturt1es]

EDITED TO ADD: Just one other comment now that I've posted in 5-6 threads over there in the past week--is it really that easy? I mean, there is a huge amount I do not know about 9-11 so I try and let those more conversant than I speak to them, but on the ones I have engaged on, a few minutes of thought and work was enough to pretty well wreck their arguments (IMHO of course). Where are the foemen worthy of my steel? (heated and shaped, but not hot enough to break).


most of the stuff they argue is just beyond easy to debunk. the problem is that they aren't open to opposing argument, so it really makes no difference.

the fun in it all is trying to post outside the "skeptics" forum without getting banned, and making the eat their own words now and then ;)

really, it's all a bit sad, so i can only post in "clusters", and have to take breaks to come back here to read people that aren't so sadly misguided.

[OMGturt1es]

QUOTE
Since when has THAT ever occured in the history of air crashes on land? Eh?

Ummm, right here?

Loose Change Forum (http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4247)


HUTCH, that was beautiful!

hahahah...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

It's reaching critical mass over there. I fully expect massive bannings of everyone that does not follow the Gospel of Dylan in the near future.

[Polaris]

Can one of the mods here help with this?

A couple of Loose Change forum users are interested in participating in this thread.

Relevant post is here: http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4855&view=findpost&p=4701756

Somebody crop-dusted that forum with stupid.

[Correa Neto]

Don't worry.

They are so dumb that concluded we do not work for TEH BOSS.

[CurtC]

What was the reason that they were seeing an "in moderation queue" message (I assume these boards spell it right)? Is there just a few-hour delay while we process the requests?

[Manny]

Yeah, I think Upchurch manually approves each application. That gets some of the bot spammers, serial trolls and people who want usernames like Heywood Jablowmi. It shouldn't have been more than a day though. Maybe PM Upchurch?

[pgwenthold]

Woo-hoo! I just did my first "Counter Loose Change with Gravy's Response"!

On the Rachel Maddow blog at airamerica, there were some comments about Loose Change. One person says she doesn't necessarily agree with them but they do raise interesting questions, especially for the Pentagon. Why are there no engines?

So I provided the link, with some comments on how it's important to verify Loose Change claims (using geggy's picture of the melted steel on the column as an example of their dishonest). She was a fence-sitter. Perhaps not any more.

[kookbreaker]

Woo-hoo! I just did my first "Counter Loose Change with Gravy's Response"!

On the Rachel Maddow blog at airamerica, there were some comments about Loose Change. One person says she doesn't necessarily agree with them but they do raise interesting questions, especially for the Pentagon. Why are there no engines?

So I provided the link, with some comments on how it's important to verify Loose Change claims (using geggy's picture of the melted steel on the column as an example of their dishonest). She was a fence-sitter. Perhaps not any more.

Link?

[pgwenthold]

http://shows.airamericaradio.com/maddow/node

And go to the comments for today (Wed, May 24)

It's not like a big debate, or anything, just a couple of random comments on her blog. However, I saw the opportunity to correct some misconception (Looser-created, of course)

[jj]

How can anybody credit these guys with any sense at all. It's just completely nuts? Geeze, Louise.

[kookbreaker]

How can anybody credit these guys with any sense at all. It's just completely nuts? Geeze, Louise.

Another one did the 'They mixed explosives with Concrete whent he built the WTC!" routine in the comments section of screwloosechange. Of course, this was the total whackjob who also screams holocost denial and Illuminati stuff.

[Hellbound]

Explosives...mixed...with concrete?

Mixed?

Explosives?

*Huntsman shakes it off*

You know, I can mix a couple hundred eggs with concrete, but it doesn't leave me with anything useable in an omelet.

[Darat]

I've split this thread to make it slightly more accessible, Part II can be found here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57424

[Darat]

Part III can be found here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=58618