Creationist Alert! Dr. Carl Wieland visiting Cape Town, SA - need help!

[EvilBiker]

Folks,

Dr. Carl Wieland is giving a lecture on creationism vs. evolution at a high school down the road from me on Wed 8th. Time permitting, I'd like to attend and try to lend support for the scientific viewpoint, which, as sure as apples is apples, will be taking a beating that night. (Any other Cape Town skeptics who want to come along, please let me know!)

Anyway, I've done a little research to try and see what he will be presenting. Seems to me he will probably put forward the old "fresh dinosaur blood" argument as proof for a young earth. So far I've got some really good articles on that controversy from talkorigins, as well as the article on radiometric dating from the ASA site. Oh, and of course, the list of questions that creationists never answer :)

Has anybody here been to one of his presentations recently? Any clue to what he will present would be good, as it will give me a chance to collect and digest the info needed for rebuttals. Also, if anybody has other suggestions on what to investigate, feel free to let me know.

EB

[Zep]

Don't bother trying to "debate" him, or heckle. People like Wieland have skin like rhinos, and a brain to match - they are much more akin to circus sideshow barkers than actual respectable "scientists". By all means attend, but take notes, not potshots.

Instead, I would try to get him where he can't come back with quips and jokes to try and shut out anything he doesn't want his audience to hear. Your higher-end national newspapers and magazines should appreciate a critical and detailed expose and rebuttal as a letter to the editor. They may even use such info to make a story out of it - here's hoping!

[Dr Adequate]

Wait 'til the end, and then ask him why the "theory of evolution" he keeps talking about is so different from the one in all the biology textbooks.

Take along a pen and paper so you can note the grosser of his mistakes.

[Zep]

Umm, no, I wouldn't try to "trash" him at all in a public forum like that. He will be surrounded by adoring sympathisers (i.e. fundie boneheads), and after decades of practice, he'll have a slick (but totally invalid) comeback for anything. So you will just look like a loser dork with bad BO. Forget it - you can't win playing on his turf by his rules.

[Nex]

I don't know, Zep. I think Dr. A's suggestion is pretty valid, and if done respectfully and with obvious confusion on the matter, I think it may at least make others in the audience stop and think. It's a good question to ask, but what really matters is how it's asked. It has to be an honest question, not one obviously meant as a trap.

I would say, bring a well-written book on biology or (even better) evolutionary biology, and ask it. But ask it honestly and respectfully. Let the man dig his own hole.

[ChristineR]

Nah, Nex, these guys fling stuff from archaelogy to anthropology and they fling it so far and so fast that no one can keep up with it. If Biker's a biologist, the guy will just throw out some silly story about how some geologist may or may not have made a mistake sometime in 1972.

[Zep]

I don't know, Zep. I think Dr. A's suggestion is pretty valid, and if done respectfully and with obvious confusion on the matter, I think it may at least make others in the audience stop and think. It's a good question to ask, but what really matters is how it's asked. It has to be an honest question, not one obviously meant as a trap.

I would say, bring a well-written book on biology or (even better) evolutionary biology, and ask it. But ask it honestly and respectfully. Let the man dig his own hole.WE know how it SHOULD be, but please be well aware that this is a fundie revivalist stump-preachin' bible-thumpin' crusade and fund-raiser we are talking about, not anything like a scholarly debate whatsoever. The people who turn up go so that preachers like Wieland can tell them what they want to hear about the evil "evilutionists" and to shout hallelujah! a lot, not to hear any sound scientific arguments. In fact, raise any debate at all and you will likely get thrown out by security! Wouldn't be the first time this has happened - it's a favourite tactic, and great sport for the punters too. Think WCW in mentality, except you are the "bad guy" who the audience loves to hate...

[EvilBiker]

I'm in two minds now, following this discussion. On one hand, I agree with Zep - a nicely written article to a prominent newspaper would be a good thing. However, the advertisement for this meeting appeared in a very low-key knock-and-drop community paper, and I doubt they would even consider printing a rebuttal - anything that effectively counters a Wieland point would have to be pitched at a pretty high intellectual level, and I suspect it would be glossed over by the majority of readers.

Dr. A's point is also agreeable, but of course I do lay myself open to ridicule, as the rest of you so nicely pointed out. I honestly don't believe I have the debating skills and patience to take him on head to head.

Hm, horns of a dilemma. On the plus side, we have not been exposed to Creationists before, and our standard of education is pretty high, so there may be some robust debate anyway.

ChristineR makes a good point, too, one which has been worrying me - I'm only an engineer with lots of interests, so I cannot put myself forward as an expert in any of the fields that will be covered. I am considering taking my aunt along, though - she is an 80-year old skeptical archaeologist of some repute, who would *love* to get her teeth into this sort of debate.

I'll go along, armed with lots of info, and see how it plays out. Maybe I'll get an opportunity to put my view across subtly. I'll invest in some fellow biker skeptics to act as bodyguards - nobody throws out anybody wearing leather.

And maybe I'll untether my aunt..:)

[Zep]

Well, please don't think they wouldn't stoop to throwing your 80yo aunt out either. They have thrown 70yo scientists out when they made their contrary opinions known...

I'm not sure what media has the most "penetration" and intellectual weight in SA, but I expect it is the serious newspapers. A nice clearly written expose with punchy prose, published just BEFORE the event for maximum disruption!, could be much more effective than trying to disrupt a meeting in a local town hall.

[Nex]

WE know how it SHOULD be, but please be well aware that this is a fundie revivalist stump-preachin' bible-thumpin' crusade and fund-raiser we are talking about, not anything like a scholarly debate whatsoever... Yeah yeah. I tend to give more credit than is due, even with the Creationist nutballs. But the fact remains, you never know until you try.

Though getting a well-written article in a main, respected newspaper just prior to the event would do a lot of good too. :blush:

[Pauliesonne]

creationist scum.......