The Central Scrutinizer – Case

[Dr. A Sheikh]

One of the NCH member floated a case at www.nch.ipbfree.com (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/)


http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=643 (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=643)


A man of 66 was brought by his relatives for treatment of acute
schizophrenia. He was violent and had to be tied up in our hospital, since he
was attacking everybody. The history was that he was an artist who was poor
and had got married to a very rich man's daughter. This woman had a
congenital deformity of one arm and therefore could not find a suitable
groom. Her father decided that the best option was to find a poor man for her
and support him in coming up in life. After the marriage, there was a lot of
domination of our patient by his father-in-law. One day, after a serious
insult, this man became openly abusive and violent and developed this acute
condition.

This case was cured (?) with homeopathic medicine. What steps can be taken to prove such type of cases with Double Blind Test? Homeopathy believe to treat so many cases like this? Please suggest a proper protocol?


P.S: The case has now been deleted by MRC_Hans ( a prominent figure at this forum )

[money]

About a third of schizophrenics get better without drugs, all by themselves.

Here's my suggestion for a proper protocol: Get a life.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Please help me in finding that proper protocol. ;)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Please help me in finding that proper protocol. ;)

You lose at life. Go reroll a different class.

[Mojo]

P.S: The case has now been deleted by MRC_Hans ( a prominent figure at this forum )At the suggestion of NCH Forum Administrator "NCHPakistan", who found it "insulting", apparently.

[eri]

Please help me in finding that proper protocol. ;)

You're the doctor, Sheikh. Are you seriously telling us that you can get a doctorate in Pakistan without knowing how to conduct a simple experiment?

[Mojo]

There's a thread here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=50535) for Sheikh to post a protocol for a double-blind test, as a first step towards keeping his promise to prove that homoeopathy works in a double-blinded trial, or quit homoeopathy. He has so far failed to contribute anything constructive.

[Nucular]

One of the NCH member floated a case at www.nch.ipbfree.com (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/)


http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=643 (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=643)




This case was cured (?) with homeopathic medicine. What steps can be taken to prove such type of cases with Double Blind Test? Homeopathy believe to treat so many cases like this? Please suggest a proper protocol?


P.S: The case has now been deleted by MRC_Hans ( a prominent figure at this forum )
Why don't you have a go at that, Sheikh? How could we rule out this chap just getting better on his own?

No, no, I don't expect any kind of sensible answer...

[Mojo]

Interestingly, the post was deleted well over a week ago, but Sheikh has for some reason only got around to asking us about it now. "The Central Scrutiniser" also only seems to have got around to complaining about it today. And Sheikh seems to still have access to the content of the deleted post.

[Zep]

What?? And here I was thinking that MAS was the webmaster over there! Now ain't that a co-inky-dink! ;)

[1984]

"Dr" A Sheikh is a quack

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4360/duck3rn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[AnotherSillyAlias]

This case was cured (?) with homeopathic medicine. What steps can be taken to prove such type of cases with Double Blind Test? Homeopathy believe to treat so many cases like this? Please suggest a proper protocol?




Why do you insist on favouring us with your lying sleazy crap?

[Czarcasm]

On the other hand, using imaginary medicine to treat an imaginary problem does seem appropriate.

[Zep]

Alas, it's REAL money they fleece off their "patients".

[Darat]

Alas, it's REAL money they fleece off their "patients".

Which is something the Pakistani media and medical establishment is very worried about, indeed they call may of these so-called practitioners "quacks":

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_22-1-2004_pg7_51

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Medical Association (PMA) has claimed that more than 600,000 quacks are operating in the country without any fear of being caught by the government.

...snip...

The PMA report held that it was not possible to have a good health system in the presence of these kinds of healers, who are in fact responsible for the spread of diseases.

...snip...


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2005%5C10%5C27%5Cstory_27-10-2005_pg7_13


Thursday, October 27, 2005
AIDS awareness drive: NGO targets clerics and quacks


http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2004-daily/03-11-2004/oped/newspost.htm

Menace of quackery

Javed Iqbal

The bogey of health-care plan if implemented in the country in letter and spirit will no doubt alter the health scenario considerably but the dream of making the country an ideal wealth care place would remain unfulfilled till addressing the problems of quackery.

Whether it is a street, a commercial plaza, a big or small town, quacks are everywhere anxiously waiting to kill people wholesale while making mints on account of fake degrees ranging from MBBS to FRCS.
...snip...


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_2-2-2004_pg7_36

COMMENT: Quacks free to con the gullible

By Sarfaraz Ahmed

...snip...

the problem continues to grow in its gravity with every passing day because more healers and their medicines are damaging health than alleviating suffering, in a country where the regulation of healers and their armamentarium is comical at best.

...snip...

According to reports, a quack is required to pay just Rs 200 as a fine under the existing laws and is subsequently free to continue.

The number of quacks in Pakistan has increased astronomically, not only in rural areas but also in major towns such as Karachi from where about 50,000 quacks operate, reports say.


...snip...

Karachi’s major public hospitals such as Jinnah Post Graduate Medical Hospital, Civil Hospital and Abbasi Shaheed, have been receiving aggravated cases of various illnesses regularly thanks to the expertise of quacks. Several women coming to these hospitals with septicaemia and haemorrhage have been taken to near death by backyard midwives. And a number of such women die on their way to hospital or when they reach there because of their critical condition caused by quacks.

...snip...

So it is that the government is criminally allowing these wolves in sheeps’ clothing to continue toying with lives despite protests from citizens and professional organisations. Despite a PMA report on quacks, the Health Ministry and provincial health departments appear to be unmoved. Pakistan will not have a good health system as long as these so-called healers are free to con the gullible.

[CFLarsen]

Quacks are not just a menace. They are a deadly danger.

[Mojo]

This, from one of the articles Darat posted links to, is perhaps particularly relevant to the case mentioned in the OP of this thread: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_2-2-2004_pg7_36

Another such example is of psychiatric patients, who are subjected to a variety of unprofessional methods by quacks.

[Dancing David]

One of the NCH member floated a case at www.nch.ipbfree.com (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/)


http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=643 (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=643)




This case was cured (?) with homeopathic medicine. What steps can be taken to prove such type of cases with Double Blind Test? Homeopathy believe to treat so many cases like this? Please suggest a proper protocol?


P.S: The case has now been deleted by MRC_Hans ( a prominent figure at this forum )


1. Show a good diagnosis to demonstrate they had schizophrenia.
2. Give half the people in the trial a conventional medicine, give half the homeopathic medication.
3. Measure thiet symptoms six months later.

[Dancing David]

About a third of schizophrenics get better without drugs, all by themselves.

Here's my suggestion for a proper protocol: Get a life.

Where did you get that information and could you cite the source?

I am not being rude, but I have worked in mental health for 15 years and have had friends who developed schizophrenia, so I am interested.

I believe that it was a case of misdiagnosis, schizophrenia is overdiagnosed, which is why when we do PAS (pre-admession screen) for Illinois Medicaid admissions to a nursing facility the diagnosis has to come from a psychiatrist.

Issues in the diagnosis of schizophrenia are :
a. the six month prodromal period, to warrant a diagnosis of schizophrenia there should be the six month period of less than prominent symptoms and negative symptoms.
b. the negative symptoms, which are a lach of normal functional skills.
c. differential diagnosis:
-schizophrenaform disorder, like schizophrenia but lasts three to six months, and has a good prognosis
-acute psychotic disorder, symptoms are brief and transient in nature
- bipolar disorder. people who are manic are often psychotic
-major depression with psychotic features, there are those who get psychosis when depressed
-dementia, often appears to have psychosis but don't
-drug induced psychosis, especialy from methamphetamine.


So I am just curious where you heard that schizophrenia remits in a third of cases?

[Dancing David]

Why don't you have a go at that, Sheikh? How could we rule out this chap just getting better on his own?

No, no, I don't expect any kind of sensible answer...

Unfortunately, for those with schizophrenia they don't get better all on thier own. It would be like having insulin dependant diabetes and just getting all better, and much less likely.

[Deetee]

I agree - Schizophrenia does not just go away. It may vary quite considerably in its severity and manifestations, so it may at times appear to get better (but will usually flare up again).
Point is, how would the MAS collective even know how to clinically assess someone from the psychiatric point of view to recognise whether anyone had got better or just gave the impression of being better?

[Hastur]

1. Show a good diagnosis to demonstrate they had schizophrenia.
2. Give half the people in the trial a conventional medicine, give half the homeopathic medication.
3. Measure thiet symptoms six months later.

Looks good, but I would make three groups: conventional meds, homeopathy, and placebo control.

[Nucular]

I agree - Schizophrenia does not just go away. It may vary quite considerably in its severity and manifestations, so it may at times appear to get better (but will usually flare up again).
Point is, how would the MAS collective even know how to clinically assess someone from the psychiatric point of view to recognise whether anyone had got better or just gave the impression of being better?
More what I had in mind. I'm trying to talk in extremely simple, generalisable terms, but DD is of course quite correct.

[Manny]

...they call may of these so-called practitioners "quacks":No way. I mean, I'm looking at the article but I still don't believe it. Is the Urdu (or Punjabi) term for someone offering sham cures also the word for the sound a duck makes? One would sure think it by reading those articles but I need someone familiar with Pakistani idioms to opine here.

[money]

So I am just curious where you heard that schizophrenia remits in a third of cases?

I thought I had remembered from Abnormal psych that about a third remit, a third respond well to drug treatment and a third do not respond to treatment.

I just dug out my old text and can't decide where I ever got those ideas...

Thanks for setting me straight.

[Darat]

No way. I mean, I'm looking at the article but I still don't believe it. Is the Urdu (or Punjabi) term for someone offering sham cures also the word for the sound a duck makes? One would sure think it by reading those articles but I need someone familiar with Pakistani idioms to opine here.


Well they are Pakistani sites and newspapers so I have no reason not to believe it isn't a commonly used term - indeed doing a search on "Pakistani quack" brings back a huge number of Pakistani sites using that term.

[CFLarsen]

Why would they want to use Punjabi/Urdu terms in articles written in English?

[kaisersean]

Wow, we've been offered a single case. That's not at all anecdotal.

These homeopathy threads are getting even more frustrating as time goes by.

[Manny]

Wow, we've been offered a single case. That's not at all anecdotal.

These homeopathy threads are getting even more frustrating as time goes by.Maybe if you were to dilute 'em by reading thousands of other threads? ;)

Why would they want to use Punjabi/Urdu terms in articles written in English?Of course one wouldn't. But the ease of translation into the English idiom, and particularly the frequency, makes me wonder if the word is also the word for a duck noise in the original language. What's Danish for "quack?" And just for fun, what's Danish for the noise a duck makes?

[The_Fire]

If you are refering to Quack as in a person who claims to be able to heal people with snakeoil or the likes or attempts to do so without the proper training
English: Danish:
Quack Kvaksalver

ETA: Kvak probably comes from the sound a frog makes allthough a duck can also be the origins......Anyone have better intell on this?

[Manny]

Well I'll be damned. Turns out the English word "quack" comes from the Dutch "kwaksalver" -- seller of salve.

[CFLarsen]

What's Danish for "quack?"

Kvak-salver.

And just for fun, what's Danish for the noise a duck makes?

Rap.

[Zep]

That's "rap" with a silent "C"?

[Dancing David]

I thought I had remembered from Abnormal psych that about a third remit, a third respond well to drug treatment and a third do not respond to treatment.

I just dug out my old text and can't decide where I ever got those ideas...

Thanks for setting me straight.

Darn , I thought there was something new, the law of thirds is believed to apply to those who take medication, a third will go into remission, a third respond well, and a third respond poorly.

No straight to set.

[Jeff Corey]

That's "rap" with a silent "C"?
Same as rap "music".

[Zep]

Same as rap "music".Tick!

[Jeff Corey]

Tick!
Tick?

[Zep]

Where's bug_girl when you need her...

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Where's bug_girl when you need her...

Buggered if I know.

[Bronze Dog]

http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/tick.jpg
The Tick?

[Darat]

Well I'll be damned. Turns out the English word "quack" comes from the Dutch "kwaksalver" -- seller of salve.

Isn't this the great thing about this forum - you're always learning something new? For anyone else interested the etymology from the OED is:

[a. early mod.Du. (16th c.) quacksalver (Kilian; mod.Du. kwakzalver), whence also G. quacksalber, Sw. qvacksalfvare: the second element is f. salf, zalf salve, ointment, and the first is commonly regarded as the stem of quacken (mod.Du. kwakken) to quack.
On this view a quacksalver is one who ‘quacks’ or boasts about the virtues of his salves; it has however been suggested that quack- or kwak- may mean ‘to work in a feeble bungling fashion’ (Franck).]

[Mojo]

Kvak probably comes from the sound a frog makes Croak? Isn't that what their patients do?

[The_Fire]

See my point?:p

[CFLarsen]

Where's bug_girl when you need her...
Yeah, she's hard to pin down...

[Zep]

*ahem*

[The Central Scrutinizer]

One of the NCH member floated a case at www.nch.ipbfree.com (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/)


http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=643 (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=643)




This case was cured (?) with homeopathic medicine. What steps can be taken to prove such type of cases with Double Blind Test? Homeopathy believe to treat so many cases like this? Please suggest a proper protocol?


P.S: The case has now been deleted by MRC_Hans ( a prominent figure at this forum )

Dr. A,

Could you please post a disclaimer to let everyone know that this thread is not about me? Or, even better, could you start a new thread proclaiming your love for me? Perhaps a rundown of any gay fantasies you have about me? That would get me excited, if you know what I mean!

The Original TCS

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Are yu the one who got registeration at nch? I am not administrator there. I cannot confirm. She put ban on Central member.

[Mojo]

Are yu the one who got registeration at nch? I am not administrator there. I cannot confirm. She put ban on Central member.Try reading what The Central Scrutinizer has posted in this thread, and you may be able to answer this question for yourself.

As I said, it's interesting that you only got around to starting this thread about a week after the original post on the NCH forum was deleted, and on the same day that "The Central Scrutiniser" on the NCH board noticed that it had been deleted and complained. And it's also interesting that you still had access to the content of the deleted post, although, as you say, you are not an administrator there.

[CFLarsen]

Are yu the one who got registeration at nch? I am not administrator there. I cannot confirm. She put ban on Central member.
Your capability to speak English varies wildly.

Almost like you are different persons. Many different persons.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Your capability to speak English varies wildly.

Almost like you are different persons. Many different persons.

Surely you are not suggesting that, gasp..., the MAS Pestilence might be ... shock horror .. dishonest?

How could you suggest such a thing?