True Facts about Homeopathy

[Dr. A Sheikh]

An honourable member of this forum suggested members to read about homeopathy at the following link

http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Homeopathy

I offer the following comments:

Definition

Homeopathy is not included in alternative medicine. It is first hand treatment.

Origins
Symptoms are not produced due to allergy but due to proving.

Potencies

According to Dr. MAS >> a prominent figure in the world of homeopathy said
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/9017/drmas3hw.jpg
(Dr. MAS is delivering lecture on preparation of potency of Alstonia Plant)

The avogadros law cannot be applied over homeopathic potencies in actual practice. Homeopathic remedies are prepared through a process called potentization. Potentization involves a series of systematic dilutions and successions. And in actual practice you cannot apply avo limits on homeo potencies. This he proved during the preparation of alstonica plant potency.

[CFLarsen]

An honourable member of this forum suggested members to read about homeopathy at the following link

http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Homeopathy

I offer the following comments:

How about answering my question in the thread you keep abandon? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1487340#post1487340)

Definition

Homeopathy is not included in alternative medicine. It is first hand treatment.

Bull. Homeopathy is included in "alternative medicine", because the tenets of homeopathy are heavily based in the supernatural.

Origins
Symptoms are not produced due to allergy but due to proving.

What does that mean??

Potencies

According to Dr. MAS >> a prominent figure in the world of homeopathy said
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/9017/drmas3hw.jpg

the avogadros law cannot be applied over homeopathic potencies in actual practice.

Saved for posterity.

Dr. MAS just revealed himself to be a true ignoramus.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

An honourable member of this forum suggested members to read about homeopathy at the following link

http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Homeopathy

I offer the following comments:

Definition

Homeopathy is not included in alternative medicine. It is first hand treatment.

Origins
Symptoms are not produced due to allergy but due to proving.

Potencies

According to Dr. MAS >> a prominent figure in the world of homeopathy said
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/9017/drmas3hw.jpg
(Dr. MAS is delivering lecture on preparation of potency of Alstonia Plant)

The avogadros law cannot be applied over homeopathic potencies in actual practice. Homeopathic remedies are prepared through a process called potentization. Potentization involves a series of systematic dilutions and successions. And in actual practice you cannot apply avo limits on homeo potencies. This he proved during the preparation of alstonica plant potency.

1) Shut up.
2) Go away.
3) Wash, rinse, repeat.

[thaiboxerken]

Dr MAS is a quack.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

1) Shut up.
2) Go away.
3) Wash, rinse, repeat.

Dr. MAS has done lot reserach work on homeopathic potencies and also demonstrated his work on world level. You can also view the videos of him.

http://nch8.tripod.com/nchblog/

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Dr MAS is a quack.

But he is highly qualified person and got all homeopathic degrees / courses running currenly in the world. :( How can you say? Some time you say, he is a troll and then you say, no he is a quack? What is your standard of education?

[thaiboxerken]

Sorry, Dr. A Ss.. I don't watch smut. Keep your videos to yourself.

[thaiboxerken]

But he is highly qualified and got all homeopathic degrees / courses running currenly in the world. :( How can you say?

Homeopathy is quackery. Having degrees in quackery and giving courses in quackery makes one a quack. He is spreading ignorance and bullshiite. THe more he spreads his nonsense, the more damage he does to the world.

[H'ethetheth]

According to Dr. MAS >> a prominent figure in the world of homeopathy said
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/9017/drmas3hw.jpg
(Dr. MAS is delivering lecture on preparation of potency of Alstonia Plant)

The avogadros law cannot be applied over homeopathic potencies in actual practice. Homeopathic remedies are prepared through a process called potentization. Potentization involves a series of systematic dilutions and successions. And in actual practice you cannot apply avo limits on homeo potencies. This he proved during the preparation of alstonica plant potency.Well, that settles it then.

[CFLarsen]

But he is highly qualified person and got all homeopathic degrees / courses running currenly in the world. :( How can you say? Some time you say, he is a troll and then you say, no he is a quack? What is your standard of education?

Is one of his "degrees" from Medicina Alternativa / Open International University for Complementary Medicines?

[H'ethetheth]

http://nch8.tripod.com/nchblog/Just when you think they can't possibly get any more deranged...

[Nucular]

The avogadros law cannot be applied over homeopathic potencies in actual practice. Homeopathic remedies are prepared through a process called potentization. Potentization involves a series of systematic dilutions and successions. And in actual practice you cannot apply avo limits on homeo potencies. This he proved during the preparation of alstonica plant potency.
Does potentisation create new molecules ex nihilo then?

Ah, what's the point.

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/9017/drmas3hw.jpg

"They won't see me in this hiding place, bwa ha ha ha..."

[Jeff Corey]

But he is highly qualified person and got all homeopathic degrees / courses running currenly in the world. :( How can you say? Some time you say, he is a troll and then you say, no he is a quack? What is your standard of education?
A quack is a person who takes money for the practice of medicine but has no valid medical training or medical license. Mr. Mas has worthless homeopathic degrees and is a quack.

[Nucular]

http://nch8.tripod.com/nchblog/
Fascinating video, btw.

I also am a connoisseur of plastic containers. I think you will appreciate the following:

http://www.larrysmarkets.com/catering/ProdImages/rental_plastictub.jpg

http://www.severnbiotech.com/images/white%20plastic%20tub.JPG

http://www.realfooddirect.co.uk/images/products/big/good-salt-tub.jpg

http://www.heavydutystore.com/db/thumbs/t_18154_01.jpg

[H'ethetheth]

I'm more of a vintage bucket man myself.
http://oldworldcharms.net/product_thumb.php?img=images/primitive-antique-bucket-1.jpg&w=193&h=225

[Dr. A Sheikh]

A quack is a person who takes money for the practice of medicine but has no valid medical training or medical license. Mr. Mas has worthless homeopathic degrees and is a quack.

Dr. MAS does not take consultation fee
He has nine years regular medical training
He has valid license

What is quack? (It means a highly qualified medical doctor?)

[CFLarsen]

Dr. MAS does not take consultation fee
He has nine years regular medical training
He has valid license

What is quack? (It means a highly qualified medical doctor?)
Is one of his "degrees" from Medicina Alternativa / Open International University for Complementary Medicines?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Dr. MAS does not take consultation fee
He has nine years regular medical training
He has valid license

What is quack? (It means a highly qualified medical doctor?)

1. A doctor of questionable ablitiy and reputation.
2. a fraudulent physician
3. A scam-artist. A person who makes up ******** medical products or advice or prescriptions that don't work. A snake oil salesman.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Is one of his "degrees" from Medicina Alternativa / Open International University for Complementary Medicines?

Extract from Dr. MAS thesis :

http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/2784/doctor4hv.jpg

The broad based study shows that calendula potency is very effective in the following ailments.

For burns sores, fissures, and abrasions

Aqueous Calendula for all wounds, the greatest healing agent in cancer.

Calendula has not been largely proved, but very definite fever symptoms have
been elicited, and cases of jaundice have been treated with it successfully.

Hot Calendula fomentations when intermittently applied, are far better than
poultices as applications to forming abscesses. If they do not abort the
process they favor the maturation and ultimate healing.

Tyler mentions that a compress medicated with Calendula 200 cures ulcers far
more rapidly than one medicated with Calendula O.Similia

Ulceration form burns or scalds, with great sensitiveness to suffering; child
screams on seeing dressing prepared, and shrinks from the approach of any one
likely to touch the sore. Calendula hinders and prevents gangrene, promotes
granulations and prevents disfiguring scars; favors cicatrisation with the
least possible amount of suppuration; prevents exhaustion from loss of blood
and excessive pain with delirium (C. Hg.).

http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/483/doctor40bg.jpg

[Dr. A Sheikh]

1. A doctor of questionable ablitiy and reputation.
2. a fraudulent physician
3. A scam-artist. A person who makes up ******** medical products or advice or prescriptions that don't work. A snake oil salesman.

:D

When I send post at this forum then first I mentally prepare for everything so this does not matter what you are saying. :D

The most serious matter is .... Secret...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

:D

When I send post at this forum then first I mentally prepare for everything so this does not matter what you are saying. :D

The most serious matter is .... Secret...

Guess what? We don't give a ****. You have no credibility on these forums. At best you are a troll wasting bandwidth, at worst you are killing people by given them ineffective medical treatments instead of using scientifically proven, and verified, medicine.

You swine. You vulgar little maggot. Don't you know that you are pathetic? You worthless bag of filth. You're a putrescence mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt.

You are a bleating fool, a curdled staggering mutant dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal accompanying your alleged birth into this world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, gibbering beasts who sired you and then killed themselves in recognition of what they had done.

I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same species as you. If you aren't an idiot, you made a world-class effort at simulating one. Try to edit your writing of unnecessary material before attempting to impress us with your insight. The evidence that you are a nincompoop will still be available to readers, but they will be able to access it more rapidly.

You snail-skulled little rabbit. Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain, and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before spattering the ocean rocks with the frothy pink shame of your ignoble blood. May you choke on the queasy, convulsing nausea of your own trite, foolish beliefs.

You are weary, stale, flat and unprofitable. You're a fool, an ignoramus. Monkeys look down on you. You are unreservedly pathetic, starved for attention, and lost in a land that reality forgot.

And what meaning do you expect your delusionally self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have with us? What fantasy do you hold that you would believe that your tiny-fisted tantrums would have more weight than that of a leprous desert rat, spinning rabidly in a circle, waiting for the bite of the snake?

You are a waste of flesh. You are ridiculous and obnoxious. You are the moral equivalent of a leech. You are a living emptiness, a meaningless void. You are a disease, you puerile one-handed slack-jawed drooling meatslapper.

On a good day you're a half-wit. You are asinine and benighted.

I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. I'm sorry. I can't go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me. After this, you may not hear from me again for a while. I don't have enough strength left to deride your ignorant questions and half baked comments about unimportant trivia, or any of the rest of this drivel. Duh.

Maybe later in life, after you have learned to read, write, spell, and count, you will have more success. True, these are rudimentary skills that many of us "normal" people take for granted that everyone has an easy time of mastering. But we sometimes forget that there are "challenged" persons in this world who find these things more difficult. If I had known, that this was your case then I would have never read your post. It just wouldn't have been "right". Sort of like parking in a handicap space. I wish you the best of luck in the emotional, and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you.

Quit wasting my prescious oxygen and stop breathing.

[Wowbagger]

If the concepts behind Homeopathy were actually valid, wouldn't that make it a very dangerous concept? If that water was not perfectly sterile before dilution, you could get poisoned by the slightest presence of lead or bacteria or whatever was in that water!!

Thankfully, the real world doesn't work that way, so homeopathic treatments come off as mostly harmless (although I am sure there are some harmful ones). And, that makes it easy for quacks to dispense it as a "cure", hoping for a dramatic placebo effect to vindicate them.

[CFLarsen]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Extract from Dr. MAS thesis :

I don't know if what you are doing is deliberate misdirection or gross stupidity....

I didn't ask for extracts from his thesis.

I asked if one of his "degrees" is from Medicina Alternativa / Open International University for Complementary Medicines.

Yes or no?

[H'ethetheth]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/Gijsko/pills.jpg

The broad based study shows that pills are very effective in the following ailments.

For burns sores, fissures, and abrasions

Pills for all wounds, the greatest healing agents in cancer.

Pills have been extensively tested, so you can trust pills. They work, and cases of jaundice have been treated with them successfully.

Some pills, when intermittently applied, are far better than
corn flakes as applications to forming abscesses. If they do not abort the
process they favor the maturation and ultimate healing.

Doctors tend to mention that a patient medicated with pills cures from ulcers far more rapidly than one medicated with diluted water.

Remember, kids. Eat pills!

[Mojo]

Homeopathy is not included in alternative medicine. It is first hand treatment. Homoeopathy is included in "alternative medicine" because it cannot be demonstrated to work.

Symptoms are not produced due to allergy but due to proving. "Proving" has not been demonstrated in blinded testing. It appears that proving effects are down to the placebo/nocebo effect.

According to Dr. MAS >>

The avogadros law cannot be applied over homeopathic potencies in actual practice. Homeopathic remedies are prepared through a process called potentization. Potentization involves a series of systematic dilutions and successions. And in actual practice you cannot apply avo limits on homeo potencies. This he proved during the preparation of alstonica plant potency.MAS has not proved this; he has merely asserted it. This is not the same thing.

[Mojo]

Guess what? We don't give a ****.

...snip... I don't know whether to report this post or nominate it! :D

[Nucular]

Extract from Dr. MAS thesis :
Any chance you could give us the bit where he demonstrates the veracity of these assertions?

[Spektator]

The truest fact about homeopathy:

It does not work.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I don't know whether to report this post or nominate it! :D

Yeah, it was probably out of line, but on the other hand, it's tough to get information through that thick skull of theirs.

[Mojo]

Yeah, it was probably out of line, but on the other hand, it's tough to get information through that thick skull of theirs.The trouble is that it's a bit too long to put in my sig.

[LTC8K6]

1. How can I verify the contents of a homeopathic remedy?

2. Can drmas identify unlabeled homeopathic remedies?

[Zep]

They have already been forced to admit that they can do neither of these things, LTC8K6. They rely totally on the labels on the bottles of prepared remedies from the manufacturers.

And yes, we have also had it first hand from someone who worked for Boiron that they too screw up the labels AND bottle contents, etc, on a regular basis. But they already know quite clearly that this kind of mishap makes no frigging difference at all to the patients! I MUST find that link again...

[Kelly]

...and all this time I thought pollution had to do with the physical environment.

[1984]

Dr MAS is a quack.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3391/quack7zp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Quack! Quack! Quack!

[Dr. MAS]

Guess what? We don't give a ****. You have no credibility on these forums. At best you are a troll wasting bandwidth, at worst you are killing people by given them ineffective medical treatments instead of using scientifically proven, and verified, medicine.

You swine. You vulgar little maggot. Don't you know that you are pathetic? You worthless bag of filth. You're a putrescence mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt.

You are a bleating fool, a curdled staggering mutant dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal accompanying your alleged birth into this world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, gibbering beasts who sired you and then killed themselves in recognition of what they had done.

I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same species as you. If you aren't an idiot, you made a world-class effort at simulating one. Try to edit your writing of unnecessary material before attempting to impress us with your insight. The evidence that you are a nincompoop will still be available to readers, but they will be able to access it more rapidly.

You snail-skulled little rabbit. Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain, and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before spattering the ocean rocks with the frothy pink shame of your ignoble blood. May you choke on the queasy, convulsing nausea of your own trite, foolish beliefs.

You are weary, stale, flat and unprofitable. You're a fool, an ignoramus. Monkeys look down on you. You are unreservedly pathetic, starved for attention, and lost in a land that reality forgot.

And what meaning do you expect your delusionally self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have with us? What fantasy do you hold that you would believe that your tiny-fisted tantrums would have more weight than that of a leprous desert rat, spinning rabidly in a circle, waiting for the bite of the snake?

You are a waste of flesh. You are ridiculous and obnoxious. You are the moral equivalent of a leech. You are a living emptiness, a meaningless void. You are a disease, you puerile one-handed slack-jawed drooling meatslapper.

On a good day you're a half-wit. You are asinine and benighted.

I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. I'm sorry. I can't go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me. After this, you may not hear from me again for a while. I don't have enough strength left to deride your ignorant questions and half baked comments about unimportant trivia, or any of the rest of this drivel. Duh.

Maybe later in life, after you have learned to read, write, spell, and count, you will have more success. True, these are rudimentary skills that many of us "normal" people take for granted that everyone has an easy time of mastering. But we sometimes forget that there are "challenged" persons in this world who find these things more difficult. If I had known, that this was your case then I would have never read your post. It just wouldn't have been "right". Sort of like parking in a handicap space. I wish you the best of luck in the emotional, and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you.

Quit wasting my prescious oxygen and stop breathing.

Please also provide explanation of these words into simple English. :D You all know, I am a Punjabi speaker. I don't even know a single word of English. For this purpose, I employed staff for my office. ;)

Anyway I thank you for your kind words which you expressed for me. I will try to capture your expectations with my hard work and dedication in the field of homeopathy. :)

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Please also provide explanation of these words into simple English. :D You all know, I am a Punjabi speaker. I don't even know a single word of English. For this purpose, I employed staff for my office. ;)

Anyway I thank you for your kind words which you expressed for me. I will try to capture your expectations with my hard work and dedication in the field of homeopathy. :)

You are a liar, scumbag and worthless troll.

Ask your staff to translate this:

Go away and don't come back.

[Zep]

No no! Don't send MAS away! He's one of the few mind-numbingly stupid woo playthings we have left here today. We want to play with him some more - maybe, if we encourage him right, he will post a few more classic pictures we can re-caption!

[anor277]

Please also provide explanation of these words into simple English. :D You all know, I am a Punjabi speaker. I don't even know a single word of English. For this purpose, I employed staff for my office. ;)

Anyway I thank you for your kind words which you expressed for me. I will try to capture your expectations with my hard work and dedication in the field of homeopathy. :)

Actually, Arkan's immoderate terms were directed at Dr Sheikh, not Dr Mas.

[Curnir]

Dr. MAS has done lot reserach work on homeopathic potencies and also demonstrated his work on world level. You can also view the videos of him.

http://nch8.tripod.com/nchblog/

No.

[Mojo]

Actually, Arkan's immoderate terms were directed at Dr Sheikh, not Dr Mas.Well, if the sock fits...

[asmodean]

True Facts about Homeopathy:

1) It's hogwash
2) It's quackery.
3) It doesn't work
4) It's crap.
5) It's grade-A kookery
6) Is about as useful as a soap herring.

See, 6 True Facts(tm) about homeopathy!

[Lothian]

The broad based study shows that calendula potency is very effective in the following ailments.

For burns sores, fissures, and abrasions
I can testify the effectiveness of Calendula or using the normal name 'marigolds' against burns. I always wear them when I do the washing up.

Aqueous Calendula for all wounds, the greatest healing agent in cancer. Very intersting but have you any evidence is works under the other star signs ?

[CFLarsen]

Very intersting but have you any evidence is works under the other star signs ?





.............that was horrible!

[Zep]

Aqueous Calendula for all wounds, the greatest healing agent in cancer.Very intersting but have you any evidence is works under the other star signs ?Nominated! *SNORT!*

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Please also provide explanation of these words into simple English. :D You all know, I am a Punjabi speaker. I don't even know a single word of English. For this purpose, I employed staff for my office. ;)

Anyway I thank you for your kind words which you expressed for me. I will try to capture your expectations with my hard work and dedication in the field of homeopathy. :)

Oh, I have not doubt you will meet my expectations in flying colors.


note: bolding mine

[aggle-rithm]

Please also provide explanation of these words into simple English. :D You all know, I am a Punjabi speaker. I don't even know a single word of English. For this purpose, I employed staff for my office. ;)



Bad news: They padded their resume.

[Deetee]

Monkeys look down on you.

Wooaah!
I think you may have overstepped the mark there......


Just as long as they don't fling poo.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

The trouble is that it's a bit too long to put in my sig.

I can't take credit for that work of brilliance, it resides here http://www.ultimateflame.com/
I've used it for years and years.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Wooaah!
I think you may have overstepped the mark there......


Just as long as they don't fling poo.

Weeeelllll, if they are in a tree, and you are on the ground...

[Donn]

I so enjoy watching you guys playing with your pet homeopaths.
I can't lurk with a straight face these days, not with all these threads spilled willy-nilly all over the forums - what fun!

[petre]

According to Dr. MAS >> a prominent figure in the world of homeopathy said
[snip]

The avogadros law cannot be applied over homeopathic potencies in actual practice. Homeopathic remedies are prepared through a process called potentization. Potentization involves a series of systematic dilutions and successions. And in actual practice you cannot apply avo limits on homeo potencies. This he proved during the preparation of alstonica plant potency.

Ah, this must be the rarely-used "Proof by repeating your assertion over and over without ever supporting it with evidence"

[Belz...]

The avogadros law cannot be applied over homeopathic potencies in actual practice. Homeopathic remedies are prepared through a process called potentization. Potentization involves a series of systematic dilutions and successions.

That makes sense. Maybe that means I can get an infinite amounts of Oreo cookies by dividing one many times.

Time for an experiment. brb.



...


Damn. All I got was a bunch of crums. DAMN YOU DR MAS!!

[Belz...]

The broad based study shows that calendula potency is very effective in the following ailments.

So is sharing your thoughts with other people. Once you take out the placebo effect, however...

[lawman]

what worse : homeopathic medicine or chiropractic medicine ?

[Marker]

Mmm lets see:

Homeopathy can cause harm by omission - patients not getting the treatment they should because they follow the magic water route.
This is also true of chiropracters except that there have been cases of chiropracters actually causing harm through incorrect manipulation of the vertebrae. - this strikes me as worse.
Although there are homeopathic "practitioners", most people (I believe) experience homeopathy by purchasing remedies after reading junk journalism and advertising claims.
Chiropracters, on the other hand usually have a direct relationship with their victims thus giving them the opportunity to use more direct methods of persuasion, tailoring their approach depending on the observed weaknesses of the person they have in their clutches - this strikes me as worse.So, all in all, my vote would be for chiropracters. The only point against this I suppose is that the term "chiropracter" is somewhat fluid and definitions differ depending on which side of the atlantic you are on. Some, I believe, are not as bad as others. Nevertheless they engender trust in their "patients" and I find this very disturbing.

[Admiral]

I would say homeopaths are worse, since chiropractors have been known to help patients with spine problems. Homeopathy, meanwhile, has had absolutely no positive effect in history- except getting people to drink more water.

[Rolfe]

Nitpick repetition. Most homoeopathic remedies are presented not as water but as sugar pills.

Rolfe.

[Mojo]

Nitpick repetition. Most homoeopathic remedies are presented not as water but as sugar pills. Maybe Kumar's diabetes has something to do with this...

[vbloke]

We need to update this:
History of Medicine
2000 B.C. - Here, eat this root.
1000 A.D. - That root is heathen. Here, say this prayer.
1850 A.D. - That prayer is superstition. Here, drink this potion.
1940 A.D. - That potion is snake oil. Here, swallow this pill.
1985 A.D. - That pill is ineffective. Here, take this antibiotic.
2000 A.D. - That antibiotic is artificial. Here, eat this root.

especially for Dr MAS and Dr. A Sheikh

2006 A.D. - Your medicine is artificial. Here, drink this water.

[Cetecea]

So, I was at the local pharmacy, a real neighborhood, locally owned store. I appreciate local businesses and always try to spend my money there rather than the big box stores.
As I waited for my prescription to be filled, I wandered around and much to my dismay there was a large section devoted to homeopathy remedies. The information I have gotten not only on the JREF forum, but more importantly from doing other research is that homeopathy is nothing but a farce being perpetrated on the unthinking.
I asked the assistant as she was billing my credit card (for clinically proven medication) what her take on homeopathy was. She sort of rolled her eyes and directed me to the pharmacist. I got the feeling she was less than thrilled with the idea but would not share that in front of her employer. I could be wrong.
I was then surprised to be subjected to a woo fairy tale about “electrical” energy healing. The enthusiasm that was displayed for this quackery by what appeared to be an otherwise very intelligent person was unsettling. He even told me that during times of “plague”, the homeopathy hospitals had a death rate of 20% while “traditional” hospitals had death rates of 80-90%!
He admitted that the dilutions involved allowed for no actual residual mother substance but that the solution had “electrical memory” and that it didn’t really do the “healing” but that it prompted the body to heal itself. Of course he couldn’t steer me towards any actual evidence of the “plague” recovery rates (and in fact started to get irritated when I suggested that perhaps the people that were “really” sick went to the hospital, while those that went to “homeopathy” hospital were perhaps going to “prevent” infection- which is conjecture on my part), nor could he provide any relevant studies (double blind) that had been repeatedly replicated- he only alluded to “200 years of evidence” and even resorted to showing me a vial of a homeopathic remedy whose label said “no side affects” and challenged me to cite any “traditional” medication that could say the same thing. When I responded that water is unlikely to have any side effects he grumbled about going back to work and that some people refuse to see the truth.

Now, I know that this won’t surprise anyone here, but as this was my first experience in actually challenging some one that “believes” in this stuff, despite all the stories I have read here, I was still surprised in the out and out delusional thinking that allows folks to buy into this stuff. And the animosity that resulted from my asking questions! I was not rude, or confrontational, I politely asked for confirmation of his “facts”. It was far different than reading a forum and listening to the disjointed troll like crap coming from Dr. Geek and MAShysteria- this was someone standing right in front of me and telling me that all of traditional scientific techniques for substantiating physical reality and cause and effect systems are worthless when trying to prove or disprove the efficacy of homeopathic treatments!

So begins my journey of skepticism! Thanks to all!

[Dcdrac]

What homeopathy hospitals???? I have never heard of that being mentioned in any account of the Plagues (The various plagues that swept europe) I have read.

[Cetecea]

That's part of my point! No evidence was forthcoming- only anecdotal crap that, when questioned, caused irritation and sidestepping. I could handle it and laugh when I read these kind stories on this and other forums, but it was disturbing to stand right there as someone fully believed what he was saying with NO evidence to back it up.

If any the apologist quacks (you know who you are) can provide the evidence, I would love to see it! If I could be taking water for my condition instead of dealing with the side effects of my current medication I would jump at the chance. But not until some one can show evidence that I should stop taking what my medical doctor has prescribed and is working!

:)

PS- This place rocks!

ETA- spelling correction

[Dcdrac]

I have brillaint plan to make money rebottle tap water and sell it to Dr Sheikh he wont check anything that I know.

[Rolfe]

MAShysteria! I love it!

Rolfe.

[Cetecea]

MAShysteria! I love it!

Rolfe.


Glad to oblige...

:p

[thaiboxerken]

Now, I know that this won’t surprise anyone here, but as this was my first experience in actually challenging some one that “believes” in this stuff, despite all the stories I have read here, I was still surprised in the out and out delusional thinking that allows folks to buy into this stuff. And the animosity that resulted from my asking questions! I was not rude, or confrontational, I politely asked for confirmation of his “facts”. It was far different than reading a forum and listening to the disjointed troll like crap coming from Dr. Geek and MAShysteria- this was someone standing right in front of me and telling me that all of traditional scientific techniques for substantiating physical reality and cause and effect systems are worthless when trying to prove or disprove the efficacy of homeopathic treatments!

So begins my journey of skepticism! Thanks to all!

Yes, you have been officially consumated into skeptical inquiry with believers. Simply asking questions is rude, simply doubting their assertions is rude as well. The only way you can be "polite", according to these people, is to be convinced and believe. They are right, and they "know" it despite the glaring gaps in their knowledge of the subject and the fact that they have no evidence to support their claims. Show them their ignorance or lack of evidence and they will get angry.

[Psiload]

Yes, you have been officially consumated into skeptical inquiry with believers. Simply asking questions is rude, simply doubting their assertions is rude as well. The only way you can be "polite", according to these people, is to be convinced and believe. They are right, and they "know" it despite the glaring gaps in their knowledge of the subject and the fact that they have no evidence to support their claims. Show them their ignorance or lack of evidence and they will get angry.

But first, they will assure you that they welcome skepticism, they themselves started out as skeptics- feel free to ask any questions you'd like, and they'll be more than happy to answer them, etc...

Ten minutes later and...

"You're just too stupid to understand how it works! I don't need to prove anything to you! I don't want Randi's filthy, non-existent money! It cured my dog of leprosy, so you just shut your stupid mouth, dog hater!"

If I had a nickel for every time I heard this rant...

I'd fill a sock with the nickels and smack them over the head with it.

[Aepervius]

Ah, this must be the rarely-used "Proof by repeating your assertion over and over without ever supporting it with evidence". As you might ask interresting Ian, this seems to be a valid tactic. (see my sig and follow link to today's post from ian).

[JPK]

Good afternoon Psiload
It cured my dog of leprosy, so you just shut your stupid mouth, dog hater!"

If I had a nickel for every time I heard this rant...

I'd fill a sock with the nickels and smack them over the head with it.

Just how many people do you know that have dogs that at one time had leprosy? :D

I can't think of a one. Maybe there is something to this Homeopothy...;)

JPK

[Rolfe]

Psiload's on the money. They're always asserting that it cured some animal or other, therefore it must work. With no idea at all about coincidental recovery or observer bias. The prize for this recently went to some great lady in a debate in the House of Lords who announced that since her goats thought homoeopathy worked then that was good enough for her. Nice to know that the members of a legislative house are so discerning as to the advice they choose to accept....

Rolfe.

[Zep]

Incredible that an ignorant goat-herder made it as a member of parliament...

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Incredible that an ignorant goat-herder made it as a member of parliament...

Remember Zep, this is the house of lords. These are a bunch of aristocrats who have been line breeding for a thousand years or more ......

[Zep]

...as goat-herders??

I'm in the wrong profession, obviously!

[AnotherSillyAlias]

...as goat-herders??

I'm in the wrong profession, obviously!

Well, you can become a politician if you want to but you will need to delete any shred of honesty or integrity you might currently have.

Unless, of course, you mean you want to be a goat herder.

[Nucular]

What homeopathy hospitals???? I have never heard of that being mentioned in any account of the Plagues (The various plagues that swept europe) I have read.
Terribly garbled account of a terribly garbled fudge oft-repeated in homeopathy circles as 'proof'.

It was actually the 19th century cholera epidemic (http://www.whale.to/v/winston.htm) the snake oil assistant seems to be half-remembering (rather than the Plague, which was popular largely well prior to Hahneman's expostulations). The claim is that in a hospital/some hospitals where homeopathy was used, in comparison to 'regular' medicine people treated homeopathically came off best, and that the report was 'suppressed' by various evil institutions, for various evil reasons.

The anecdote, when 'correctly' recounted, serves every time as a clear illustration of the poor understanding of scientific controls, and their epistemological value, of the anecdotalist: the complete lack of any experimental control in any of these tales shows they just about grasp the necessity of having more than one group to compare, but have probably never heard of selection bias, control groups, randomisation, etc. etc. etc.

[Dcdrac]

ok doke thanks for the clarification. Do you want to help out with the selling tap water to homepathetic practioners scam (Surely Scheme) i have in mind.

[Mojo]

Terribly garbled account of a terribly garbled fudge oft-repeated in homeopathy circles as 'proof'.

It was actually the 19th century cholera epidemic (http://www.whale.to/v/winston.htm) the snake oil assistant seems to be half-remembering (rather than the Plague, which was popular largely well prior to Hahneman's expostulations). The claim is that in a hospital/some hospitals where homeopathy was used, in comparison to 'regular' medicine people treated homeopathically came off best, and that the report was 'suppressed' by various evil institutions, for various evil reasons. There are also claims (highly topical at the moment, of course) about the 1918/19 flu epidemic (http://www.homeopathicmedicalclinic.com/flu/index.htm). In 1918 flu pandemic homeopaths reported around 1% mortality in their cases, while conventional doctors were losing 30% of their patients. But note that (even on that pro-homeopathy site) there is a suggestion that this is not because the homoeopathy worked, but because the "orthodox" treatment at the time may have actually been harmful (especially if the patients didn't stick to the recommended dosage): According to the Dewey article the use of aspirin either directly or indirectly was the cause of more loss of lives than the influenza illness itself. Frank Newton, M.D and many of the other physicians indicated that its indirect action came through the fact that aspirin was taken until it caused prostration and then the patient developed pneumonia. A principle druggist from Montreal declared that 900 patients died from influenza. They were directed to take a 5 – grain aspirin tablet every three hours, but more took ten grains every three hours. It is important to point out that at this time aspirin was a relatively new drug and because large doses were prescribed it obviously had a highly toxic effect upon the body. Today physicians do not prescribe aspirin in these doses; the inherent danger of toxicity is known and understood. Source (http://www.homeopathicmedicalclinic.com/flu/dewey.htm)

[MRC_Hans]

*snip* Nice to know that the members of a legislative house are so discerning as to the advice they choose to accept....

Rolfe.I wouldn't mind if certain of our politicians started to take advice from goats. It could only be an improvement from their own ideas...

Hans

[Orb]

[bob and david] Goats are stupid, mean, and hardheaded animals, that’s why they're called "Nature's Presidents" [/bob and david]

[Kopji]

Time
Posted Tuesday, Oct. 04, 2005
...Millions of people around the world swear by the alternative medicine homeopathy. In Britain, the Royal Family endorses and uses it. But that hasn't deterred the editors of The Lancet, the prestigious British medical journal, which has launched an all-out attack on homeopathy. In its current issue, The Lancet published a massive study that compared the results of 110 trials of homeopathy with the same number of trials of conventional medicine. The conclusion: benefits attributed to homeopathy were, at best, placebo effects.

...The Swiss Government, after a five-year trial, has withdrawn insurance coverage for homeopathy. Even the U.S. National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, which has been criticized for being too open to spurious alternative medicine claims, has little good to say abut homeopathy. Its website states, "Systematic reviews have not found homeopathy to be a definitively proven treatment of any medical condition."

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,1114166,00.html

...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...

That brings up an interesting thought (at least to me). Why is it, so often, we will read, "...Millions of people around the world swear by the alternative medicine homeopathy. In Britain, the Royal Family endorses and uses it. But that hasn't deterred the editors of The Lancet, the prestigious British medical journal, which has launched an all-out attack on homeopathy..."

But never read "...Millions of people around the world swear against the alternative medicine homeopathy. .... But that hasn't deterred the editors of <insert other magazine, say Fortean Times>, ..., which has launched an all-out attack for homeopathy..."

[Marker]

The same reason we frequently see alarmist headlines telling us "30% of the population against ...." instead of "70% of the population support..."

Incidentally, I take issue on using Fortean Times as an example. My occasional experience of the magazine is that although it gives space to wome woo-woo ideas, the editorial stance is usually pretty skeptical.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

The same reason we frequently see alarmist headlines telling us "30% of the population against ...." instead of "70% of the population support..."

Incidentally, I take issue on using Fortean Times as an example. My occasional experience of the magazine is that although it gives space to wome woo-woo ideas, the editorial stance is usually pretty skeptical.

It was the first mag I could think of at o'dark thirty in the morning, before having coffee, that dealt with that stuff at all (that wasn't a pure skeptic mag). Tried to remember some of the neopagan mags I used to read, but kept drawing a blank.

[Kopji]

That brings up an interesting thought (at least to me). Why is it, so often, we will read, "...Millions of people around the world swear by the alternative medicine homeopathy. In Britain, the Royal Family endorses and uses it. But that hasn't deterred the editors of The Lancet, the prestigious British medical journal, which has launched an all-out attack on homeopathy..."

But never read "...Millions of people around the world swear against the alternative medicine homeopathy. .... But that hasn't deterred the editors of <insert other magazine, say Fortean Times>, ..., which has launched an all-out attack for homeopathy..."
Yeah, there's a saying that goes something like 'a lie can travel around the world before the truth can put its pants on' (paraphrased).

To my pov, homeopathic "doctors", "psychics", priests, and sundry authorities are merely symptoms that arise from humanity to serve (and sell to) the incurious. Maybe "Incurious" (as a noun) is a better term than "woo" but I doubt it would be any less offensive.

'Scientific' people are always curious, they want to know more. Science digs, turns over stones, looks for answers. We don't work for better designed studies in some 'misguided' attempt to undermine the comfortable status quo, but because better studies and tests are the only way to answer this deep curiosity about how things REALLY work.

Bad us, not being satisfied.

The Incurious are happily complacent (maybe they really do live longer that way, but who cares?). To them, Everything has an answer or a solution, all they need to do is choose. But the 'choosing' is pretty much defective because it is not driven by curiosity.

Scientific people are invariably more comfortable with uncertainty and doubt. Answers lead to new and better questions. Maybe that's why magazines like 'Lancet' or 'Nature' command respect: they are for the deeply curious, not the easily satisfied.

I don't know how to teach someone to be curious, but I think it can be 'caught'. To me, that's the 'educational resource' part of JREF.