What is the point?

[Danhalen]

Why is it that religious people - generally - believe everything has some "point"? I just read another thread where someone asked if another was going to "lead us to believe there is no point to death." Did you ever stop to think about why things die? Does cellular deterioration have any bearing on death? What is the point of the breakdown of chemical bonds? Then what about the point to life itself? What the hell is the point to anything? I'm sorry, I just think "what's the point to ___" is a stupid argument. Perhaps I'd go so far as to say it's an argument from ignorance - if you can't tell me the point then I must be right.

Why does there have to be a point?

[CapelDodger]

Why is it that religious people - generally - believe everything has some "point"?
The idea that there has to be "a point" (not necessarily to everything, but at least to existence itself) is so prevalent that it must be an innate human assumption. It's probably been beneficial to our species to assume a process and an objective behind things we experience, because often enough there has been a process and a predictable outcome. That's the foundation of technology and science. It's also the foundation of volcano-gods.

[Danhalen]

Do processes and predictability necessarily imply "a point"? To me it merely implies certain things must behave a certain way due to their construction. The "point" or "purpose" is imposed post hoc.

[CapelDodger]

Why does there have to be a point?
There really doesn't. That's the foundation stone of atheism, IMO.

[ChristineR]

Humans are pattern seeking creatures. We see all sorts of things that aren't there. It's definitely an evolutionary advantage. As I like to say, it's unlikely that there is a monster under your bed, but it can't hurt to get out of bed and look.

[RandFan]

Humans are pattern seeking creatures. We see all sorts of things that aren't there. It's definitely an evolutionary advantage. As I like to say, it's unlikely that there is a monster under your bed, but it can't hurt to get out of bed and look. Agreed, humans find meaning. Though to be sure their is no intrinsic meaning to anything. There is no point. Any meaning to anything is that which we ascribe to a thing. In support of what you are saying we find meaning in things because it was evolutionary advantageous to us to find meaning. Human based meaning is linked to emotion and perception. It is deeply engrained in us so many if not most of us assume that there is a purpose to everything hence the age old philosophical question "why am I here"?

Answer: Just because. A fluke. The result of the big bang, evolution and abiogenises.

Why do we die? see above

[CapelDodger]

Do processes and predictability necessarily imply "a point"? To me it merely implies certain things must behave a certain way due to their construction. The "point" or "purpose" is imposed post hoc.
I would say that "point" and "purpose", as concepts, arise from the same part of the human brain/psyche.

The concept that a thing can be constructed to achieve a particular end according to a process seems to be a particularly human talent. That's why chimps are still at the termite-poking stage of technology while humans can fake a Moon-landing, no problem. Six billion of us, mostly living lives of quiet desperation, and hardly any chimps. There's upsides, there's downsides.

Woo, religion and science exist because humans have an innate "Why did that happen?" thing going on much of the time, while most animals don't.

[CapelDodger]

Humans are pattern seeking creatures. We see all sorts of things that aren't there. It's definitely an evolutionary advantage. As I like to say, it's unlikely that there is a monster under your bed, but it can't hurt to get out of bed and look.
One result of humans being pattern-seeking creatures is the recognition of that very fact. Sadly, there have been all sorts of other results. Lawyers, for instance.

[Dogdoctor]

Many humans want to feel more imortant than an accident of nature. Thus there must be reasons for everything.

[T'ai Chi]

Why is it that religious people - generally - believe everything has some "point"?


I'd say all people do. Even saying 'it has no point' is making a point.

I think because our experience tells us that most things do have a point.

[Danhalen]

I'd say all people do. Even saying 'it has no point' is making a point.Making a point does not bestow a point.

I think because our experience tells us that most things do have a point.I think our experience tells us human construction has a point.

[T'ai Chi]

Making a point does not bestow a point.

I think our experience tells us human construction has a point.

Both points you've just made.

;)

[Danhalen]

Both points you've just made.

;)At least you have a knack for the obvious.

[BJQ87]

I recall a scripture sounding something like "eternity is set in the hearts of men"

[Iacchus]

Why is it that religious people - generally - believe everything has some "point"? I just read another thread where someone asked if another was going to "lead us to believe there is no point to death." Did you ever stop to think about why things die? Does cellular deterioration have any bearing on death? What is the point of the breakdown of chemical bonds? Then what about the point to life itself? What the hell is the point to anything? I'm sorry, I just think "what's the point to ___" is a stupid argument. Perhaps I'd go so far as to say it's an argument from ignorance - if you can't tell me the point then I must be right.

Why does there have to be a point?Why bring it up?

[Danhalen]

Why bring it up?Because it confuses me. I'd like to know why some people believe there must be a point to it all.

[Zep]

They are trying not to be pointless themselves.

[RandFan]

Why bring it up?Why ask?

[Iacchus]

Because it confuses me. I'd like to know why some people believe there must be a point to it all.Why do we have language? Doesn't it in fact suggest that there is a point to everything we see around us? So, what would be the point if we didn't? Of course if death were the end of it all -- of our ability to make a point -- aha! ;) -- there really would be no point to anything that occurs after death now would there?

So why is it that it's so much a part of our nature to understand "what's the point?"

[RandFan]

So why is it that it's so much a part of our nature to understand "what's the point?"Evolution.

[Iacchus]

Evolution.So, does this suggest we are part of a Universe which has evolved to the point to where it has begun to question itself?

[RandFan]

there really would be no point to anything that occurs after death now would there?

So why is it that it's so much a part of our nature to understand "what's the point?"That's precisely the point, there is no point. Only human perception, our need to find a point. That we would like there to be a point doesn't mean that there is one.

[RandFan]

So, does this suggest that we are of a Universe which has evolved to the point to where it has begun to question itself?Something like that. Would that be a problem for you?

[RandFan]

So, does this suggest we are part of a Universe which has evolved to the point ...This isn't one of your semantic games is it? The word "point (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=point)" has different definitions. Don't confuse them.

[Iacchus]

Something like that. Would that be a problem for you?So, there was no point prior to our being here, a substantial point while we are here (definitely ;)), and no point after we pass on? Does this suggest that the Universe loses all substantiality if we didn't exist?

[Iacchus]

Could it be that the Universe has always had a point, and we are the most recent manifestations of it?

[Rufo]

They are trying not to be pointless themselves.
Which is sort of understandable, since very few like the idea of their existance being pointless. Saying "There is no point to my existance" is just inviting some violent philosopher to aim a shotgun at one's face and ask for a reason not to end something pointless.

And why not? More or less everyone has a reason for staying alive. It's all just a matter of whether you think the reason or the life was there first.

[Mojo]

Why do we have language? Doesn't it in fact suggest that there is a point to everything we see around us? Can you provide some sort of argument to connect those two sentences?

Of course if death were the end of it all -- of our ability to make a point -- aha! ;) -- there really would be no point to anything that occurs after death now would there? If death is "the end of it all", then there's nothing after death to have a point, is there?

[Jekyll]

Humans are pattern seeking creatures. We see all sorts of things that aren't there. It's definitely an evolutionary advantage. As I like to say, it's unlikely that there is a monster under your bed, but it can't hurt to get out of bed and look.
Unless it's a hungry monster.....

[Danhalen]

Why do we have language?To share ideas.

Doesn't it in fact suggest that there is a point to everything we see around us?I see no connection between language and purpose.

So, what would be the point if we didn't?The same as it is now - what we decide it is.

Of course if death were the end of it all -- of our ability to make a point -- aha! ;) -- there really would be no point to anything that occurs after death now would there?Here's the problem I have with this: did you figure we had a point to being and therefore decided we do not end in death or did you decide we do not end in death and therefore have a point? Either way it seems like post hoc rationalization.

So why is it that it's so much a part of our nature to understand "what's the point?"I found the first few responses to this thread answered that question quite well.

[Taffer]

Could it be that the Universe has always had a point, and we are the most recent manifestations of it?

No.

[CFLarsen]

I think because our experience tells us that most things do have a point.

Which things do not have a point?

[Angus McPresley]

That's precisely the point, there is no point. Only human perception, our need to find a point. That we would like there to be a point doesn't mean that there is one.


Ah yes, but it doesn't mean there ISN'T one either.

On hearing I'm an atheist, pious types often try the "Then what's the point?" approach, as a sort of gotcha, as if the question any some bearing on the truth of their worldview as compared to mine.

But I never respond that there isn't a point, just that we just don't know yet if there is one. All the facts just aren't in. But we should be doing all we can to bring them in.

"What's the point?" may be the most important question there is, and should be the ultimate purpose of science. Which is why science means little to people who think they already know what the point is.

[farmermike]

"What's the point?" may be the most important question there is, and should be the ultimate purpose of science. Which is why science means little to people who think they already know what the point is.
I've got to write that down somewhere.

[RandFan]

So, there was no point prior to our being here, a substantial point while we are here (definitely ;)), and no point after we pass on? Does this suggest that the Universe loses all substantiality if we didn't exist?Does it have substantiality now? Assuming that it does would such a loss threaten you?

[RandFan]

Ah yes, but it doesn't mean there ISN'T one either. And that I want there to be a Santa Clause doesn't mean that there isn't one either. From an atheistic standpoint what "point" could there be? I guess it depends on what you mean by point? I think your idea of "point" and Iacchus' idea are quite different. I would be interested in other people's definitions. If by point you mean intrinsic purpose or transcendent purpose then I would have to say it is very unlikely.

On hearing I'm an atheist, pious types often try the "Then what's the point?" approach, as a sort of gotcha, as if the question any some bearing on the truth of their worldview as compared to mine.

But I never respond that there isn't a point, just that we just don't know yet if there is one. All the facts just aren't in. But we should be doing all we can to bring them in.

"What's the point?" may be the most important question there is, and should be the ultimate purpose of science. Which is why science means little to people who think they already know what the point is. Again, depends on your definition of "point".

[Beerina]

Do processes and predictability necessarily imply "a point"? To me it merely implies certain things must behave a certain way due to their construction. The "point" or "purpose" is imposed post hoc.

Unless you want to get into the obtuseness of a rock "desiring" to roll down hill, giving its "activities" "meaning".

But no, things reacting according to the laws of physics isn't creating any kind of meaning to anything.

I also don't see why nothing having a "point" in a cosmic sense is any big deal.

Furthermore, looking at the "point" that Christianity makes merely suggests God is (please read) an insane buffoon. He creates a reality where he knows the vast majority of people will end up in Hell, but proceeds to do this anyway, and is called "good". Furthermore, the few who make it to Heaven were selected because they were good people, fed the poor, etc., and their reward is to live in a Heaven where those skills are absolutely useless..

So, Christians, don't think your world has anything remotely like a meaningful "point" to it.

[Iacchus]

I see no connection between language and purpose. Well, just don't shout FIRE! the middle of a crowed theater! ;)

[Danhalen]

Well, just don't shout FIRE! the middle of a crowed theater! ;)Ok...

Do you care to draw a correlation between language and purpose or are you going to continue to demonstrate typing tourettes syndrome?

[Iacchus]

Ok...

Do you care to draw a correlation between language and purpose or are you going to continue to demonstrate typing tourettes syndrome?You're right, there's no point in discussing it.

[Danhalen]

You're right, there's no point in discussing it.At least with you.

[Iacchus]

At least with you.Perhaps you should consider not trying to make a point against it?

[Danhalen]

Perhaps you should consider not trying to make a point against it?Are you conflating my use of making a point to the claimed inherent purpose (point) of life and death? I think I have already claimed it is possible for mankind to impose a point on existence. Your semantic games are boorish.

[CapelDodger]

Why do we have language?
To facilitate specious arguments, among other things.
Doesn't it in fact suggest that there is a point to everything we see around us?
No.

[Iacchus]

Are you conflating my use of making a point to the claimed inherent purpose (point) of life and death? I think I have already claimed it is possible for mankind to impose a point on existence. Your semantic games are boorish.And, did you know that time and space dictates that eveything has a point? :p Now, if on the other hand, it were possible to leave the domain of time and space, there would be no point. :D Could this be what some of us refer to by death? :D

[Danhalen]

And, did you know that time and space dictates that eveything has a point? :p Now, if on the other hand, it were possible to leave the domain of time and space, there would be no point. :D Could this be what some of us refer to by death? :DDid daddy ignore you as a child? What about mommy? There are people who are trained to help you cope with your need for attention. :rub:

[Iacchus]

Did daddy ignore you as a child? What about mommy? There are people who are trained to help you cope with your need for attention. :rub:No, the point to language (specifically) is to identify all those points that exist within the domain of time and space and convey their sense to others ... and of course, beyond. ;) This is how we derive this thing called meaning.

[Danhalen]

No, the point to language (specifically) is to identify all those points that exist within the domain of time and space and convey their sense to others ... and of course, beyond. ;) This is how we derive this thing called meaning.I see you have no idea. We are talking past each other. Language would have no point if there were no people to create it and its meaning. Of course you seem to think this implies all things have an intrinsic meaning. I don't mind, you make me feel better about myself. At least you are good for something.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

So, there was no point prior to our being here, a substantial point while we are here (definitely ;)), and no point after we pass on? Does this suggest that the Universe loses all substantiality if we didn't exist?

Dude, I just saw a bear in the woods and you are not going to believe what he was doing...

LLH

[Iacchus]

Dude, I just saw a bear in the woods and you are not going to believe what he was doing...Well, I bet it's pretty substantial to the bear at least, anyway.

[Pae]

So, there was no point prior to our being here,

''Points'' and ''meanings'' are a part of the human subjective experience. Before our species existed, there was no human subjective experience so there were no points or meanings.

a substantial point while we are here (definitely ;)),

There are points and meanings to us.

and no point after we pass on? Does this suggest that the Universe loses all substantiality if we didn't exist?

No, this is absurd. After we are gone, there is no human subjective experience so ''points'' and ''meanings'' simply cease to exist.