Can ANyone Provide Any Hard Evidence for the Paranormal?

[Dcdrac]

I have never seen any and suspect I never will.

[solas]

if paranormal is considered "not understandable in terms of known scientific laws and phenomena" then with reason there is an amount of phenomena not currently understood in terms of the above. I do have a link to a scientific experiement which demonstrates some effects of "paranormal" activity, the nature has yet to be fully understood by scientific means.
Trying to locate a link to it, will post tomorrow. hopefully wil be up to 15 posts by then.

[CFLarsen]

I can't wait.

[aggle-rithm]

if paranormal is considered "not understandable in terms of known scientific laws and phenomena" then with reason there is an amount of phenomena not currently understood in terms of the above. I do have a link to a scientific experiement which demonstrates some effects of "paranormal" activity, the nature has yet to be fully understood by scientific means.
Trying to locate a link to it, will post tomorrow. hopefully wil be up to 15 posts by then.

The mechanism of a phenomenon doesn't have to be known in order for it to be considered a natural phenomenon. After all, we don't fully understand the mechanism behind gravity, but no one thinks it's paranormal.

Contrary to popular belief, most claimed paranormal activity is understood perfectly well in terms of science. Self-delusion, trickery, and misinterpretation of experiences are well-known and well-documented.

[solas]

"not understandable in terms of known scientific laws and phenomena" is the dictionary definition of the term (from dictionary. com) If there is another one that would server my time here better I would appreciate it.
After all, we don't fully understand the mechanism behind gravity, but no one thinks it's paranormal.just not understood, lest we forget.
I can't wait.it;s a pretty straight forward experiment, I'm sure lot of people here will be able to replicate it.

[aggle-rithm]

"not understandable in terms of known scientific laws and phenomena" is the dictionary definition of the term (from dictionary. com) If there is another one that would server my time here better I would appreciate it.

That's probably fine for casual usage, but for skeptics the term "paranormal phenomenon" is almost an oxymoron (an occurance that can't occur). A paranormal phenomenon is generally thought of as being purely speculative and unlikely to actually occur.


just not understood, lest we forget.



Huh...?

[solas]

Huh...?if scientists thought everything had already been figured out, there would be little need for any query.

This experiment, carried out in the 70's, in Russia claims that cell cultures could transmit disease by electromagnic means by way of a quartz medium. (DEATH TRANSMISSION VIA THE PARANORMAL CHANNEL) Cells were grown independantly on either side of a quartz window and one side was infected with a viral payload. Shortly after, the second flask of cells demonstrated the symptoms of infection.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/asher22/dtvtpc.jpg
the nature of the transmission would make for a decent discussion. (how does a get to b)

http://www.cheniere.org/books/excalibur/death%20transmission.htm

[CFLarsen]

it;s a pretty straight forward experiment, I'm sure lot of people here will be able to replicate it.
I can't wait.

[solas]

all ya need is some quartz containers, a little infa red light and some cell cultures. :)

[CFLarsen]

all ya need is some quartz containers, a little infa red light and some cell cultures. :)
I can't wait.

[Stormraven]

all ya need is some quartz containers, a little infa red light and some cell cultures. :)

Was this experiment controlled to prevent airborne - and other types of - cross-contamination? The picture indicates otherwise.

[blutoski]

all ya need is some quartz containers, a little infa red light and some cell cultures. :)

And something to threaten the cultures. The article says they tried irradiating and poisoning, as well as phages.

The results are suspicious: rewind a bit and ignore the whole window confusion.

Question: if this wokred, why do cultures sitting next to each other in a fridge not get cross-infected in dark fridges or incubators all the time?

ie: this experiment is replicated every day in ordinary micro labs, and these results are not confirmed.

[Nyarlathotep]

if scientists thought everything had already been figured out, there would be little need for any query.

This experiment, carried out in the 70's, in Russia claims that cell cultures could transmit disease by electromagnic means by way of a quartz medium. (DEATH TRANSMISSION VIA THE PARANORMAL CHANNEL) Cells were grown independantly on either side of a quartz window and one side was infected with a viral payload. Shortly after, the second flask of cells demonstrated the symptoms of infection.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/asher22/dtvtpc.jpg
the nature of the transmission would make for a decent discussion. (how does a get to b)

http://www.cheniere.org/books/excalibur/death%20transmission.htm

Have you replicated it? Do you have any links that show anyone has ever sucesfully replicated it? Do you know what precautions were or were not taken to prevent cross contamination of the two cultures?

etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

[blutoski]

Was this experiment controlled to prevent airborne - and other types of - cross-contamination? The picture indicates otherwise.

The picture's not to scale. The study says they were in seperate rooms, and the window was probably quite large.

Even contamination won't explain the results, since poison is very localized, and presumably, the radiation application was focused so it wouldn't pass through the window.

My guess is that we just have ordinary fraud, not bad experimental design.

[solas]

yes, and something to threaten the cultures.
Question: if this wokred, why do cultures sitting next to each other in a fridge not get cross-infected in dark fridges or incubators all the time?
I have no idea? though it might have something to do with the lack of a quartz conductor and infa red light.
ie: this experiment is replicated every day in ordinary micro labs, and these results are not confirmed.apparantly, this experiment has been carried out no less than five thousand times, in which case the results can be validated via replication.

[Nyarlathotep]

apparantly, this experiment has been carried out no less than five thousand times, in which case the results can be validated via replication.

Where has it been replicated by anyone other than the people who conducted it in the first place? THAT is the important question.

[solas]

My guess is that we just have ordinary fraud, not bad experimental design.it's possible. But considering the nature of the experiment which led to the discovery (medical), the reasons for understanding the nature of cell death transmission are genuine. (to aid in the understanding and prevention of disease)
I would like to see if it's replicable.

[Ashles]

apparantly, this experiment has been carried out no less than five thousand times, in which case the results can be validated via replication.
Why do you say that?

If it has been replicated that many times then the replications should be a lot easier to find than they are.

I can't find one at the moment.

[solas]

Why do you say that?the paper stated such was the case.
The experiments were done in darkness, and over 5,000 were reported by Kaznacheyev and his colleagues.
I'll have a google see if I can find some other medical research papers.

[Ashles]

the paper stated such was the case.
Oh sorry I thought you were saying it had been replicated 5000 times.

[Nyarlathotep]

the paper stated such was the case.


I just cloned Elvis. I have replicated my cloning experiment 5000 times. Thus you should accept it as a fact.

(see the problem?)

[Almo]

To answer this thread's original question:

No.

(and I don't mean because of the semantics issue with the meaning of the word "paranormal")

[solas]

I just cloned Elvis. I have replicated my cloning experiment 5000 times. Thus you should accept it as a fact.

(see the problem?)
Understandably, sure. Just to make it clear, the basic premise of this experiment (if it were true) would demonstrate that all physical changes - chemical, material, mechanical, whatever -at root level are constituted and caused by virtual state interactions, in direct patterns of virtual particle exchanges.
ie:In other words, as the infected cells died, they emitted what was observed as "death photons" which contained the template pattern of their death condition.

The eventual emergence of this "ghost template pattern" into observable physical reality is called kindling. Kindling is charging up one or more atomic nuclei with an integrated virtual charge pattern until the integrated pattern breaches the quantum threshold, resulting in emergence of that pattern into observable physical change.

[Ashles]

In other words, as the infected cells died, they emitted "death photons" which contained the template pattern of their death condition.
"Death photons"?

Which particular branch of science does this fall under?
Necrobiotics?
Mortophysics?
Quantum Morbidity?

[solas]

"Death photons"?apparantly so. Uv photons which contain virtual cell patterns.
Which particular branch of science does this fall under?
Necrobiotics?ask a neurophysicist or delve into quantum mechanics.

[Psiload]

Understandably, sure. Just to make it clear, the basic premise of this experiment (if it were true) would demonstrate that all physical changes - chemical, material, mechanical, whatever -at root level are constituted and caused by virtual state interactions, in direct patterns of virtual particle exchanges.
ie:In other words, as the infected cells died, they emitted what was observed as "death photons" which contained the template pattern of their death condition.

The eventual emergence of this "ghost template pattern" into observable physical reality is called kindling. Kindling is charging up one or more atomic nuclei with an integrated virtual charge pattern until the integrated pattern breaches the quantum threshold, resulting in emergence of that pattern into observable physical change. Yeah... that's how Elvis cloning works too. Integrated quantum template pattern flux capacitance. Yup, sure enough... that's how we make our armies of Elvi clone...

The Flying Clone Elvises (Utah chapter).

[CFLarsen]

solas,

This would qualify for the JREF Challenge. Are you going to apply?

[Nyarlathotep]

Understandably, sure. Just to make it clear, the basic premise of this experiment (if it were true) would demonstrate that all physical changes - chemical, material, mechanical, whatever -at root level are constituted and caused by virtual state interactions, in direct patterns of virtual particle exchanges.
ie:In other words, as the infected cells died, they emitted what was observed as "death photons" which contained the template pattern of their death condition.

The eventual emergence of this "ghost template pattern" into observable physical reality is called kindling. Kindling is charging up one or more atomic nuclei with an integrated virtual charge pattern until the integrated pattern breaches the quantum threshold, resulting in emergence of that pattern into observable physical change.

Sure. And if I allow matter and anti-matter to react in the presence of dilithium crystals, the Cochrane effect allows a stable sub-space warp field to be created.

Techno-babble is easy. Science is hard.;)

Can we agree that there are enough holes in this experiment to sink the Titanic and that it thus doesn't really constitute good evidence of the paranormal?

[solas]

:cool:

[solas]

This would qualify for the JREF Challenge. Are you going to apply?if someone really wants to replicate the experiment I welcome them to it. Personally, I figure it stands as a testiment to medical science.

[Psiload]

I did a search for "death photons"...

I think I just broke google.

Wait, nope... the kook filter was just clogged. She's up and working again.

[solas]

"death photons" is the term used to refer to the condition of the Uv photon in question.

[Nyarlathotep]

if someone really wants to replicate the experiment I welcome them to it. Personally, I figure it stands as a testiment to medical science.

I'll put you down for a "No", then.

[Nyarlathotep]

I did a search for "death photons"...

I think I just broke google.

Wait, nope... the kook filter was just clogged. She's up and working again.


If we can integrate Death Photon technology with our Elvis Cloning technology we can get an army of flying Elvi who can emit death photons from their eyes!

No one can stop us now. We shall have an invincible army of extraordinary magnitude! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[blutoski]

it's possible. But considering the nature of the experiment which led to the discovery (medical), the reasons for understanding the nature of cell death transmission are genuine. (to aid in the understanding and prevention of disease)
I would like to see if it's replicable.

Well, that was my point: it's replicated every day, but the results are opposite of this study's finding.

I take two plates, streak them, contaminate one set with phage or antibiotics, leave the other, and put them side-by-side in the incubator for a couple of days, in the dark. When I pull them out, the contaminated set is dead, and the control is fine.

The employment of a 'window' is just unnecessary clutter in a very simple experiment. If the plates don't contaminate each other through plain air, why would they contaminate each other through plain air with a quartz window?

[Psiload]

If the plates don't contaminate each other through plain air, why would they contaminate each other through plain air with a quartz window?

Because you need the quartz window to focus the integrated virtual charge pattern so that the integrated pattern breaches the quantum threshold.

Duh.

[Ashles]

ask a neurophysicist or delve into quantum mechanics.
Please show me where a respectable QM or Neurophysical source refers to "death photons".

It appears that "death photons" exist nowhere outside of references to this "experiment".

They also don't exist out of inverted commas. Which is itself interesting.

[solas]

I'll put you down for a "No", then nah...not just yet anyway. ;)
The employment of a 'window' is just unnecessary clutter in a very simple experiment. If the plates don't contaminate each other through plain air, why would they contaminate each other through plain air with a quartz window?the experiment is designed to observe "contamination" on an atomic level, not to prove that contamination exists.
If we can integrate Death Photon technology with our Elvis Cloning technology we can get an army of flying Elvi who can emit death photons from their eyes!actually, if we could develop this technology it could prove useful in curing diseases like aids and cancer.

[solas]

It appears that "death photons" exist nowhere outside of references to this "experiment".
try googling, virtual cell patterns.

[CFLarsen]

if someone really wants to replicate the experiment I welcome them to it. Personally, I figure it stands as a testiment to medical science.

I didn't ask if someone else would want to replicate this experiment. I asked if you would do it.

You claimed that - and I quote you:

"this experiment has been carried out no less than five thousand times, in which case the results can be validated via replication."

OK. Do it one more time, this time for the JREF.

Are you going to apply? There's a million dollars at stake here. All you got to do is replicate this. Again, quoting you:

it;s a pretty straight forward experiment, I'm sure lot of people here will be able to replicate it.

A million dollars, solar. Waiting for you. Just do it. Replicate this experiment and pick up ONE MILLION DOLLARS.

[Nyarlathotep]

try googling, virtual cell patterns.

I just did. Looking for it as a phrase turns up naught. Looking for it as seperate words turns up all kinds of things but not anything related to this experiment and nothing on "death photons".



ETA: Oh and a helpful hint. I think you will have better luck quoting people if you just hit the quote button on the post you want to quote. THen you don't have to worry about how my name is spelled or cutting and pasting the wrong thing into your post.

[Psiload]

try googling, virtual cell patterns.
I did a 'match exact phrase' search. The results:

Your search - "virtual cell patterns" - did not match any documents
Why am I not surprised?

[Ashles]

try googling, virtual cell patterns.
I did.
Your search - "virtual cell patterns" - did not match any documents.

ETA: Psiload beat me to it
ETFA: Oh, and Nyarlathotep

[sat556]

Solas. Where can we find a copy of this 'paper' you referred to?

[solas]

Are you going to apply? There's a million dollars at stake here. All you got to do is replicate this. Again, quoting you:
I'm not sure what it would prove. That energy works on levels previously unknown to us? For sure. Would that be considered paranormal and would it have any effect on how other paranormal phenomena is viewed, I dunno.
I figure the experiment could be carrried out successfully (if not this one then several others which prove sub atomic energy in action). There are hundreds of medical students and scientists who work with similar strains of thought everyday. For them the goal is to master technology through the nature available to us so that we can benefit from it.
I genuinely submit that if someone wishes to prove the nature of paranormal transmission they could do so, with ease, its not an unreasonable approach in the realm of science.
With that knowlege in mind I keep an open mind where the nature of what may be considered paranormal. We don't know all there is to know, but you can be sure that the nature of life is far greater than we could ever imagine.

I'll contact a friend, see if she would like to set up an experiment.

[Psiload]

I'm not sure what it would prove. That energy works on levels previously unknown to us? For sure. Would that be considered paranormal and would it have any effect on how other paranormal phenomena is viewed, I dunno.
I figure the experiment could be carrried out successfully (if not this one then several others which prove sub atomic energy in action). There are hundreds of medical students and scientists who work with similar strains of thought everyday. For them the goal is to master technology through the nature available to us so that we can benefit from it.
I genuinely submit that if someone wishes to prove the nature of paranormal transmission they could do so, with ease, its not an unreasonable approach in the realm of science.
With that knowlege in mind I keep an open mind where the nature of what may be considered paranormal. We don't know all there is to know, but you can be sure that the nature of life is far greater than we could ever imagine.

I'll contact a friend, see if she would like to set up an experiment. You'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath?

[Mojo]

"death photons" is the term used to refer to the condition of the Uv photon in question.Do you mean that a "death photon" is a photon of a particular wavelength? Because that's the only way one photon differs from another.

Did they manage to replicate the effect by simply shining photons of the particular "death" frequency on a culture?

[CFLarsen]

I'm not sure what it would prove. That energy works on levels previously unknown to us? For sure. Would that be considered paranormal and would it have any effect on how other paranormal phenomena is viewed, I dunno.
I figure the experiment could be carrried out successfully (if not this one then several others which prove sub atomic energy in action). There are hundreds of medical students and scientists who work with similar strains of thought everyday. For them the goal is to master technology through the nature available to us so that we can benefit from it.
I genuinely submit that if someone wishes to prove the nature of paranormal transmission they could do so, with ease, its not an unreasonable approach in the realm of science.
With that knowlege in mind I keep an open mind where the nature of what may be considered paranormal. We don't know all there is to know, but you can be sure that the nature of life is far greater than we could ever imagine.

I'll contact a friend, see if she would like to set up an experiment.

Are you going to turn down a million dollars for a sure-fire experiment?

[solas]

Your search - "virtual cell patterns" - did not match any documentsre virtual cell patterns (apologies if its in irish, it translates the same)
from google: Torthaí 1 - 10 as timpeall 2,570,000 le haghaidh virtual cell pattern. (0.26 soicind)
first on the list here:http://www.nap.edu/nap-cgi/skimit.cgi?recid=10742&chap=241-260

apologies for delay I keep logging out while trying to respond.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well, let's take a gander at the relevent Google hits:
http://www.sinor.ru/~che/index(en).htm - A Russian website talking about the experiment
http://twm.co.nz/bem_rubik.html - A wooish scientist that lists the book as a reference
http://www.cheniere.org/books/excalibur/photon%20quenching.htm - From the same site as the above experiment
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_light01.htm - another article from the woman two links up
http://www.explorepub.com/articles/energetics_notes.html - "Healing with energy" website that references Kaznacheyev
http://www.implosionresearch.com/cir1/coghill.htm - Woo cell phone radiation protection device website
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/pro-freedom.co.uk/the_military_use_of_mind_control.html - tin foil hat website
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/ufooverburlington36.html - UFOs over Wisconsin

So, on the first page of Google hits we have _no_ reputable websites. The research publication is over 25 (iirc) years old.

We have to ask ourselves which is more likely:
(1) Kaznacheyev discovered evidence of "Distant Intercellular Interactions in a System of Two Tissue Cultures" and the rest of the scientific community is (a) ignoring it, or (b) covering it up, or
(2) No one has been able to replicate the results of the experiment.

[Ashles]

I figure the experiment could be carrried out successfully (if not this one then several others which prove sub atomic energy in action). There are hundreds of medical students and scientists who work with similar strains of thought everyday. For them the goal is to master technology through the nature available to us so that we can benefit from it.
Sub atomic experiments are certainly carried out every day.

But they currently do not involve "death photons", or "virtual cell patterns" or elves.

It seems a little strange that a 30 year old experiment, which appears to be groundbreaking and a doorway to an entirely new field of scientific research, has never been replicated.

Doesn't that seem odd?

[Nyarlathotep]

re virtual cell patterns (apologies if its in irish, it translates the same)
from google: Torthaí 1 - 10 as timpeall 2,570,000 le haghaidh virtual cell pattern. (0.26 soicind)
first on the list here:http://www.nap.edu/nap-cgi/skimit.cgi?recid=10742&chap=241-260

apologies for delay I keep logging out while trying to respond.

searched the page and went to the page where the word Virtual Cell appeared. No mention of "Death Photons"

[solas]

Solas. Where can we find a copy of this 'paper' you referred to?it's linked to the article above. Or you could google Kaznacheyev
http://www.cheniere.org/books/aids/ch5.htm
You'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath? be my guest.
Are you going to turn down a million dollars for a sure-fire experiment?I just responded in answer to the original posters question.

[Mojo]

http://www.implosionresearch.com/cir1/coghill.htm - Woo cell phone radiation protection device website. Roger Coghill, no less! :D

[solas]

But they currently do not involve "death photons", or "virtual cell patterns" or elves.no elves, virtual cell patterns for sure, its actual pure basic science. You can read more about it here:http://www.nap.edu/openbook/0309089891/html/241.html
or try googling radiobiology or cellular signalling.

[solas]

I did not provide any link to the above site posted by mojo.

[Psiload]

it's linked to the article above. Or you could google Kaznacheyev
http://www.cheniere.org/books/aids/ch5.htm

And "free energy" kook and diploma mill Ph. D. Tom Bearden. Randi loves this guy:

http://www.google.com/u/JREF?q=tom+bearden&q=-intitle%3AForums&q=-intitle%3AForum&sa=Go%21

[Nyarlathotep]

no elves, virtual cell patterns for sure, its actual pure basic science. You can read more about it here:http://www.nap.edu/openbook/0309089891/html/241.html
or try googling radiobiology or cellular signalling.


Everything on that page deals with perfectly ordinary mechanisms for one cell to signal another, i.e. chemicals. Nothing about "death photons" and nothing about mechanisms whereby killing cells in one room will kill cells in another room.

[solas]

We have to ask ourselves which is more likely:
(1) Kaznacheyev discovered evidence of "Distant Intercellular Interactions in a System of Two Tissue Cultures" and the rest of the scientific community is (a) ignoring it, or (b) covering it up, or
(2) No one has been able to replicate the results of the experiment.
If someone proved the science behind the experiment is correct and valid would it then be considered acceptable?

I brought up over 2,000,000 hits when I googled virtual cell pattern btw, the first three were edu. related sites.

[solas]

And "free energy" kook and diploma mill Ph. D. Tom Bearden. Randi loves this guyI'm not discussing the topic of free energy although I can see how it may be related. I'll see if I can get around to setting up an experiment, help randi out.

[Mojo]

http://www.cheniere.org/books/aids/ch5.htmAh yes, cold fusion in chickens...

It won Kervran an Ig Nobel prize for physics in 1993.

[Ashles]

no elves, virtual cell patterns for sure, its actual pure basic science. You can read more about it here:http://www.nap.edu/openbook/0309089891/html/241.html
or try googling radiobiology or cellular signalling.
I am familiar with computer modelling of cell transmission.

How does that relate to these theoretical "death photons"?

[solas]

I am familiar with computer modelling of cell transmission.
great, A simple program to simulate biological pattern formation..apparantly.
' (C) Hans Meinhardt, MPI Tuebingen


From: The Language of Life: How Cells Communicate in Health and Disease. Currently skimming chapter: 6 The Virtual Cell, pages 241-260 .

[Mojo]

I did not provide any link to the above site posted by mojo.If you look carefully you'll see that I was quoting Arkan Wolfshade.

[Ashles]

great, A simple program to simulate biological pattern formation..apparantly.
' (C) Hans Meinhardt, MPI Tuebingen


From: The Language of Life: How Cells Communicate in Health and Disease. Currently skimming chapter: 6 The Virtual Cell, pages 241-260 .
You still haven't explained how your link relates to "death photons" or the experiment you were talking about.

Computer models are there to emulate mechanisms we see in nature. The question we are asking are what evidence there is that "death photons" actually exist in nature, other than a single unreplicated experiment?

[solas]

If someone proved the science behind the experiment is correct and valid would it then be considered acceptable?
I guess this experiement is valid challenge material then.

ashles:I've already explained the semantics behind the use of the word death photons. If you don't like the word or consider it innapropriate don't buy it. Similarly it equates to the values or conditions of a cellular signal. That being the signal a cell relays when a cell has died. Or do you just not believe in photons?

[Nyarlathotep]

I just hope that Al Qaeda doesn't have any death photons. We'd be in serious trouble if they did.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

If someone proved the science behind the experiment is correct and valid would it then be considered acceptable?

I brought up over 2,000,000 hits when I googled virtual cell pattern btw, the first three were edu. related sites.


They would be able to prove it if:
(1) It was a hypothesis/theory that made predictions which could be tested and verified or proven incorrect
(2) It was a reproducible experiment that non-affiliated scientific peers could run with the same results

Regarding "virtual cell pattern", my limited understanding is this field of study revolves around how cells "sense" their surroundings (through chemicals, receptors, etc) and, in systems, use chemicals to "communicate".

Just because someone has associated this line of research with Kaznacheyev does not mean Kaznacheyev's writings are or are not bunk anymore than associating cold fusion with J. Robert Oppenheimer makes it so.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I guess this experiement is valid challenge material then.
...

I would tend to agree with that statement.

[Nyarlathotep]

I guess this experiement is valid callenge material then.

Probably, you'd have to ask them for the final say, but I would bet good money that it would be acceptable for the challenge. You'd probably want to try it on your own and get someone to sign a notarized document saying it worked, then send that document with your app, though.

[solas]

Probably, you'd have to ask them for the final say, but I would bet good money that it would be acceptable for the challenge. sounds good to me.

[Ashles]

ashles:I've already explained the semantics behind the use of the word death protons. If you don't like the word or consider it innapropriate don't but it. Similarly it equates to the values of the conditions of a cellular signal. That being the signal a cell relays when a cell has died. Or do you just not believe in photons?
Yes I believe in photons. I believe in Heisenberg's uncertainty principal, but just because Star Trek refers to 'Heisenberg Compensators' doesn't mean I believe in teleportation. A made up thing can have a real word in it - that does not in itself convey legitimacy to the idea.
Light exists, sabres exist, yet light sabres do not.

I understand what is being claimed, the point is whether it is actually real.

You have not provided a link that backs up this proposed field of research.

[solas]

I understand what is being claimed, the point is whether it is actually real.a valid challenge then, so be it.
I got to go help the kid with her homework. Take care folks, will catch up you soon.

[drkitten]

I've already explained the semantics behind the use of the word death photons. If you don't like the word or consider it innapropriate don't buy it. Similarly it equates to the values or conditions of a cellular signal. That being the signal a cell relays when a cell has died. Or do you just not believe in photons?

The problem isn't with the word -- it's with the (unproven) concept behind the word, a concept for which we've got no mainstream scientific evidence.

It's not clear to me either that cells "signal" when they die, or that cell signals can consist of photons instead of the more common chemicals, or that these hypothetical photons would have the effect of causing the death of other cells other than by standard well-understood radiation effects. For your "death photons" to exist, all three of these would have to be true.

Any one of them, if replicable, would be a major biochemical discovery.

[CFLarsen]

I just responded in answer to the original posters question.

Just yes or no.

Yes?

or

No?

[DrMatt]

I'd like to point out the difference between "not explainable" and "not currently explained". But in light of the fact that it claims communication between bacteria separated by a window when no such communication is observed among bacteria separated by no window at all, I'm afraid the distinction I'm pointing out is overkill.

[DrMatt]

I'm not sure what it would prove. That energy works on levels previously unknown to us? For sure. Would that be considered paranormal and would it have any effect on how other paranormal phenomena is viewed, I dunno.
.... Etc.

Randi has gone on record being willing to part with the million for an astounding new scientific discovery that just *looks* paranormal (TAM 3 DVDs, Q/A session with Randi). And I agree with him: such serious advances in our knowledge are worth money.

With Randi laid up and Kramer having retired, things may have to wait a little while.

So how about it, Solas. Money, Mouth, challenge application.

[drkitten]

I'd like to point out the difference between "not explainable" and "not currently explained".

There's another difference that should be pointed out between "not explainable" and "not observed, and therefore not in need of explanation."

I can offer no explanation for the invisible dragon under my sink.

[petre]

*pokes head into potential challenge-generating thread*

Lemme know if I can be of any help applying for the challenge. Replicable paranormal results are the key.

*wanders off, wondering why everyone gets distracted away from winning a million dollars around this stage*

[solas]

Do you mean that a "death photon" is a photon of a particular wavelength? Because that's the only way one photon differs from another.yes. A photon containing a particular frequency being transmitted to and affecting an independant cell. [the wave nature of light]
Did they manage to replicate the effect by simply shining photons of the particular "death" frequency on a culture?The theory rests on how the transmission occurs, by eliminating contamination by way of direct radiation or chemical effects. As already stated, such an experiment (if it were true) would demonstrate that all physical changes - chemical, material, mechanical, whatever -at root level are constituted and caused by virtual state interactions. Which isn't unreasonable considering we currently use lightwaves to transmit detailed information.
Lemme know if I can be of any help applying for the challenge. Replicable paranormal results are the key.I was talking to some folk who have acces to lab environment and reckon an experiment would be do able. [except the quartz is quite expensive]
There are a few questions with the theory which I'm looking into, there is no legitimate reason why quartz should amplify any signal and it would suggest that current barrier techniques involving contagions don't work (which they do).

If the means become available to carry this experiment out purely for reasons of curiosity, then great, it will be interesting none the less.

[Psiload]

a valid challenge then, so be it.
I got to go help the kid with her homework. Take care folks, will catch up you soon.
While you're at it, you should ask the kid for help with your challenge proposal... looks like you'll need it.

[Psiload]

I brought up over 2,000,000 hits when I googled virtual cell pattern btw, the first three were edu. related sites.

That's because you're doing a broad search for all of the words in the phrase, silly goose. Of course you're going to get a buttload of hits. If you want to find the exact phrase, as relates to your quantum death particles, you have to do an advanced search for the exact phrase... but don't bother, because you won't find it.

Don't doubt my skillz...

my Google-Fu is strong.

[solas]

Thats the funny thing, I didn't come here to make a challenge. I'll provide reasonable edu. links for you tomorrow on the basis of quantum physics and the wave nature of light.

[solas]

Do you mean that a "death photon" is a photon of a particular wavelength? Because that's the only way one photon differs from another.
yes. A photon containing a particular frequency being transmitted to and affecting an independant cell. [the wave nature of light]
Did they manage to replicate the effect by simply shining photons of the particular "death" frequency on a culture?
The theory rests on how the transmission occurs, by eliminating contamination by way of direct radiation or chemical effects. As already stated, such an experiment (if it were true) would demonstrate that all physical changes - chemical, material, mechanical, whatever -at root level are constituted and caused by virtual state interactions. [quantum physics] Which isn't unreasonable considering we currently use lightwaves to transmit detailed information.
Lemme know if I can be of any help applying for the challenge. Replicable paranormal results are the key.
I was talking to some folk who have acces to lab environment and reckon an experiment would be do able. [except the quartz is quite expensive]
There are a few questions with the theory which I'm looking into, it doesn't state what kind of cells were used, there is no legitimate reason why quartz should amplify any signal and it would suggest that current barrier techniques involving contagions don't work (which they do).

If the means become available to carry this experiment out purely for reasons of curiosity, then great, it will be interesting none the less.

[Psiload]

Thats the funny thing, I didn't come here to make a challenge. I'll provide reasonable edu. links for you tomorrow on the basis of quantum physics and the wave nature of light.

... as it all relates to quantum death photons, right?

I'm not intertested in your word salad. Just stick to explaining the the basics of the fantastic claims you've made in the simplest terms possible... show your work, and bring some evidence.

I seriously hope you're not going to turn into one of the standard-issue drones who spend a dozen+ long-winded posts NOT answering a simple question that was asked.

We've already got our quota of those guys in residence.

[solas]

as it all relates to quantum death photons, right?

I'm not intertested in your word salad. Just stick to explaining the the basics of the fantastic claims you've made in the simplest terms possible... show your work, and bring some evidence.

I seriously hope you're not going to turn into one of the standard-issue drones who spend a dozen+ long-winded posts NOT answering a simple question that was asked.

We've already got our quota of those guys in residence.I'm assuming your over the age of 16 and therfore are entitled to have consentual sex occasionally. I highly recommend it as a way of relieving yourself.

[drfrank]

I've just watched War of the Worlds (for the first time, I may add) and found it pretty good, despite the presence of Tom "I hate psychiatry" Cruise.

Either way, they definitely used Death Photons in that, so Solas must be right :rolleyes:

Solas, I'm sure you're a lovely person, but the experiment you're referring to is obviously bollocks. As others have said, thousands of cultures each day are laid next to each other in equivalent circumstances and nothing happens. Also, the experimental results completely disagree with, well, gosh darn everything we know about both physics and biology.

Scientists, let's be fair, are as big cash whores as the next group of venal money-grabbers. If one tried to replicate this, and it actually worked, despite every reason to the contrary, there would be so much research money ploughed into this right now it might create some sort of monetary singularity and destroy the universe. I, for one, would be trying to grab me some of that research cash and cheerfully stamping on the ankles of the scientists in front of me.

This is how research works.

The fact that this is not happening implies that everyone who has tried it under any decent experimental controls has failed to replicate it, and decided that they're wasting their time.

Feel free to replicate the experiment, it all adds to the sum of human knowledge and, if it works, I'll be at the front of the line congratulating you for bringing this amazing research back to the forefront of human discovery.

However, you should be aware that, in all likelihood, it will fail miserably.

[eri]

Wait, I'm confused. We're talking about UV photons here - just photons of a particular wavelength. Sure, we can use radio waves to send information, but there has to be a mechanism set up to recieve and interpret those signals. You do realize that when the state of a particle is described in QM, we're talking about one particle, right? For example, hydrogen? You're talking about somehow transmitting the state of every single particle in the cell to another cell and replicating it? Forgive my skeptitism. That's pretty much what I think this article (http://www.think-aboutit.com/energy/elf_sick.htm) (one of the first google offered me) is trying to say with the following:

The Kaznachayev experiments (in the former Soviet Union) show that the dying cells from the infected culture emitted photons in the near ultraviolet wave length that contained artificial (structural) potential. The virtual state, patterned substructures in this photon flux directly represented the cell's specific infection. In other words, as the infected cells died, they emitted 'death photons' which contained the template pattern of their death condition.

Of course, I don't know why I bothered going that far, since the second sentence was

Back in 1974, Soviet biologist A.P. Dubrov reported that "all living organisms emit gravitational (electromagnetic) waves."

[solas]

Wait, I'm confused. We're talking about UV photons here - just photons of a particular wavelength. Sure, we can use radio waves to send information, but there has to be a mechanism set up to recieve and interpret those signals. You do realize that when the state of a particle is described in QM, we're talking about one particle, right? For example, hydrogen? yes! (actually he is talking QM terms of photon, one of the elementary particles)
ou're talking about somehow transmitting the state of every single particle in the cell to another cell and replicating it? Forgive my skeptitism. That's pretty much what I think this article (one of the first google offered me) is trying to say with the following:well, thats what the theory states, its not my theory but I'm willing to test it.
Back in 1974, Soviet biologist A.P. Dubrov reported that "all living organisms emit gravitational (electromagnetic) waves."yay someone gets it. (read the original post on the subject) The entire theory is based on the transmission of information via electromagnetism
interesting no? (especially for the true scpetic/seeker)

[solas]

Solas, I'm sure you're a lovely person, but the experiment you're referring to is obviously bollocks. As others have said, thousands of cultures each day are laid next to each other in equivalent circumstances and nothing happens. Also, the experimental results completely disagree with everything we know about both physics and biology.it might be bollox frank, but the conditions the cultures were subject to are not generic lab test conditions. I've offered to put it to the test and will see if we can replicate the results. It could fail miserbly, but it would be nice to know conclusivly either way.
Solas, I'm sure you're a lovely person, but the experiment you're referring to is obviously bollocks. As others have said, thousands of cultures each day are laid next to each other in equivalent circumstances and nothing happens. Also, the experimental results completely disagree with everything we know about both physics and biology.there are lots of reasons why it may not be used, one which I stated above is pretty obvious, current barrier techniques involving contagions work fine as it is. (with the exception of some cancer and aids treatments)

[Psiload]

I'm assuming your over the age of 16 and therfore are entitled to have consentual sex occasionally. I highly recommend it as a way of relieving yourself.
Have you seen the handiwork of some of our more intrepid "kooks in residence"? Trust me... it takes more than a jolly good rogering of the Mrs. to get that level of frustration out of the system.

We've got some first rate pontificating purveyors of pure piffle here at our little corner of the interwebs. Some of them spout gibberish that makes your quantum death ray stuff seem plausible by comparison...

well, almost plausible.

[solas]

Have you seen the handiwork of some of our more intrepid "kooks in residence"? Trust me... it takes more than a jolly good rogering of the Mrs. to get that level of frustration out of the system.understandable. I'm not here to promote the existance of alien races or the loch ness monster.
I am though intriqued by the nature of unknown scientific law. I think it's a reasonable experiment even if nothing comes of it.

[eri]

OK, my overall point from the earlier post is that you're talking about transmitting an extrodinary amount of information from a dying cell (how does it emit this information to begin with? why only when it's dying?) and it being recieved by another cell which somehow decipers this information and incorperates it into itself for some reason. It seems, quantum mechanically, extremely unlikely, if not impossible. Certainly not reproducable unless we're talking about some medium other than quantum mechanical state transmission.

And my purpose in including the second quote was to question the validity of the source - graviational waves and electromagnetic waves are completely seperate phenomena, certainly not interchangable as the paper was suggesting.

Oh, and the article also seemed to suggest that the researchers had validated the information exchange - how exactly? If there was a mechanism for getting the entire QM state of a cell simultaneously, I'm pretty sure it would be big news. But no one seems to have heard of it.

[drfrank]

it might be bollox frank, but the conditions the cultures were subject to are not generic lab test conditions. I've offered to put it to the test and will see if we can replicate the results. It could fail miserbly, but it would be nice to know conclusivly either way.
there are lots of reasons why it may not be used, one which I stated above is pretty obvious, that current barrier techniques involving contagions do work.
We know beyond any doubt that infections are caused by bacteria/virii. If the infection can be transmitted, then how on earth do the complex molecules forming the bacteria/virii come to be in the other container? Does the cell build another virus based on some electromagnetic signal? Is this additional matter? If so, where does the matter come from, since the signal energy will not even approach it (foreseeing a Star Trek explanation)? In either case, isn't that the stupidest thing in the world that a cell could possibly do?

Nevertheless, hat-eating on standby :) At least this should be a nice and easy test.

[solas]

OK, my overall point from the earlier post is that you're talking about transmitting an extrodinary amount of information from a dying cell (how does it emit this information to begin with? why only when it's dying?) and it being recieved by another cell which somehow decipers this information and incorperates it into itself for some reason. It seems, quantum mechanically, extremely unlikely, if not impossible. Certainly not reproducable unless we're talking about some medium other than quantum mechanical state transmission.

ooh so many questions. I only have the article information to refer to in terms of confirming the experiment
how does it emit this information to begin with? why only when it's dying?as you have already noted, he suggests that all living organisms emit gravitational (electromagnetic) waves. (twice, once at birth and once upon dying) He is also assuming that these waves contain the frequency of the cell condition. (a)healthy (b) unhealthy.
and it being recieved by another cell which somehow decipers this information and incorperates it into itself for some reason He suggests this information is relayed via a "paranormal channel", a carrier which transmits electromagnetic waves (infa red light and perhaps amplified by the quartz) and is absorbed via a kindling process.
It seems, quantum mechanically, extremely unlikely, if not impossible.
Well, quantum mechanics itself is theoretical at best. I don't see how it falls outside the the current laws of wave functions. (given the conditions and carrier that might have been used to transmit the information)

[Pup]

Well, I hate to toss Darwinism into this already tenuous mix, but looking at it from that viewpoint...

Cells that can tell other cells how to die have no evolutionary value that I can see. A virus that is killing the cells would have an evolutionary advantage if it could replicate (teletransport?) itself across space via "death photons" once it kills off its current host.

Thus it seems to me this is not something that cells supposedly can do, but a new way that viruses can spread themselves, beyond such old-fashioned ways as hijacking a ride in bodily fluids.

[eri]

Sorry, quick reply and I'll be back a little later, but did we switch from UV to IR somewhere? Different sides of the visual spectrum, not the same thing, like gravity vs. electromagnetic. QM is a well-established theory - see the Double Slit Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_slit_experiment) or the Stern-Gerlach Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern-Gerlach_experiment) for confirmation of the basic principles of QM.

[solas]

Infa red light was used as part of the experiment. (I think, will have to go back and check)
He is referring to QM in terms of photon, According to the so-called wave-particle duality in quantum physics, it is natural for the photon to display either aspect of its nature, according to the circumstances.
Cells that can tell other cells how to die have no evolutionary value that I can see cells do it all the time, its how people get sick and die.

edit:re infa red, I thought I read earlier the experiments were done in the dark without visible light conditions, hence the association with infa red as part of the experiment. It is present organically.
He does though go onto say that In the visible light spectrum, it is probable that extremely large numbers of near-zero strength paranormal patterns are modulated on the light radiation; hence these patterns simply consist of a very weak background noise and the kindling effect does not apply. (The patterns are so random as to be self-canceling in the kindling effect.)

[eri]

In the visible light spectrum, it is probable that extremely large numbers of near-zero strength paranormal patterns are modulated on the light radiation; hence these patterns simply consist of a very weak background noise and the kindling effect does not apply. (The patterns are so random as to be self-canceling in the kindling effect.)

This doesn't really make any sense to me. Could you translate, perhaps? The term 'paranormal channel' seems dubious to me - I can't imagine a scientist employing that term and then expecting to be taken seriously. Maybe it's a translation problem. And does he have any basis for his claim that living beings emit electromagnetic waves upon birth and death? I won't ask for gravitational wave evidence, and he would be best to ignore it as well, since they probably won't give him access to LISA (http://lisa.nasa.gov/) to prove his theory.

[T'ai Chi]

I have never seen any and suspect I never will.

Some thoughts:


Astronomers now find they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. And they have found that all this happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover... That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact.

"A Scientist Caught Between Two Faiths: Interview with Robert Jastrow,", Christianity Today, 8/6/1982, emphasis added



A contemporary of Einstein said


The beginning seems to present insuperable difficulties unless we agree to look on it as frankly supernatural.

The Expanding Universe, New York: Macmillan, 1933



To summarize these statements, I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist, p. 85, puts it


Now why would Jastrow and Eddington admit that there are "supernatural" forces at work? Why couldn't natural forces have produced the universe? Because these scientists know as well as anyone that natural forces- indeed all of nature- were created at the Big Bang. In other words, the Big Bang was the beginning point for the entire physical universe. Time, space, and matter came into existence at that point. There was no natural world or natural law prior to the Big Bang. Since a cause cannot come after its effect, natural forces cannot account for the Big Bang. Therefore, there must be something outside of nature to do the job. That's exactly what the word supernatural means.

[DrMatt]

If the quartz is expensive, skip it, use air. If you can't replicate it without the barrier, the barrier isn't going to help.

[DrMatt]

Thats the funny thing, I didn't come here to make a challenge. I'll provide reasonable edu. links for you tomorrow on the basis of quantum physics and the wave nature of light.

Cart before horse. Show us the claimed ability first, we can theorize about it later.

[Admiral]

cells do it all the time, its how people get sick and die.


No, when an infection or a virus spreads through the body, it's not the cells that are transmitting it, it's the bacteria or virus that is spreading itself- either by replicating itself or, in the case of viruses, getting the cell to produce viruses by messing with its DNA. However, I'm willing to accept the hypothesis that the virus inserts DNA into the cell that causes the cell to transmit "death photons" to other cells. (Except, of course, that I am skeptical of the existence of these "death photons.")

I should note that in my opinion, everyone on this forum should be much more reasonable. Solas is far from a troll: he's a reasonable, coherent poster who believes something and wants to test it. Science is based on creating hypotheses and then testing them, and solas found some research and wants to try replicating it.

If you manage to get access to a lab to do an experiment, make sure you use a control. You'll want to run the procedure by the forum members- or at least by a responsible scientist.

The reason I'm telling you this is because of personal experience: This summer, I interned with a chemistry research lab at Boston University, and because of an experiment that I designed incorrectly, spent weeks chasing a fictitious result. The hypothesis I made (while not paranormal in any sense) was interesting, biologically relevant, and physically plausible- it "sounded" reasonable to me. So is your idea. But that doesn't mean you should trust it- make sure the experiment is properly designed and avoids all possible contamination. Your greatest critic should be yourself- think "How could this experiment give a false positive?"

Then, feel free to try it out. I might note that, with a few hundred dollars in capital, you could probably create your own setup- and you'll probably have to. Professors are not known for giving use of their labs to people trying to discover "death photons."

[CFLarsen]

Some thoughts:




A contemporary of Einstein said




To summarize these statements, I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist, p. 85, puts it
...and? Your point is?

[drfrank]

The reason I'm telling you this is because of personal experience: This summer, I interned with a chemistry research lab at Boston University, and because of an experiment that I designed incorrectly, spent weeks chasing a fictitious result.
I dare anyone who's ever performed any kind of experiment, theoretical or empirical, to claim that's never happened to them :D

You think you've discovered cold fusion/the world's best optimisation algorithm/Jesus, and then realise later the monumentally stupid mistake you made setting it all up. Been there, done that, been back for more ;)

I appreciate that solas isn't a bad guy/gal, but I just hope that, if it doesn't work, he/she doesn't spend forever trying to replicate the exact experiment because it'll definitely work next time if you get the quartz with just the right width/diameter/star sign...

[drfrank]

Then, feel free to try it out. I might note that, with a few hundred dollars in capital, you could probably create your own setup- and you'll probably have to. Professors are not known for giving use of their labs to people trying to discover "death photons."
Good point - you should probably apply for funding from the US military :D

[Mojo]

A contemporary of Einstein said...Another contemporary of Einstein said "I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception." The fact that someone happened to be around at the same time as Einstein doesn't actually give them any real authority, does it?

[Jekyll]

I just cloned Elvis. I have replicated my cloning experiment 5000 times. Thus you should accept it as a fact.

(see the problem?)
Long queues at the burger bar?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Mojo:
Do you mean that a "death photon" is a photon of a particular wavelength? Because that's the only way one photon differs from another.yes. A photon containing a particular frequency being transmitted to and affecting an independant cell. [the wave nature of light] So you're saying that the experiment shows that there is a specific frequency of light that transmits the symptoms of viral infection: Posted by solas:
Cells were grown independantly on either side of a quartz window and one side was infected with a viral payload. Shortly after, the second flask of cells demonstrated the symptoms of infection.Did they manage to identify the frequency? If so, they should be able to transmit the symptoms of the viral infection simply by shining radiation of the appropriate frequency onto a culture, without having a "transmitting" culture present. This would avoid the problem of possible contamination from one culture to another.

[Nyarlathotep]

Long queues at the burger bar?


Yes, and you don't want to know how many TVs I 've gone through. And the bill for banannas and peanut butter is killing me and I've got 5000 pair of blue suede shoes cluttering up my house and I can't step on a single one of them and.....

[solas]

No, when an infection or a virus spreads through the body, it's not the cells that are transmitting it, it's the bacteria or virus that is spreading itself- either by replicating itself or, in the case of viruses, getting the cell to produce viruses by messing with its DNA.you mean a signal is relayed into nearby cells which replicates the virus? the only difference in these dynamics is the level of observation of the process However, I'm willing to accept the hypothesis that the virus inserts DNA into the cell that causes the cell to transmit "death photons" to other cells. (Except, of course, that I am skeptical of the existence of these "death photons.")

I should note that in my opinion, everyone on this forum should be much more reasonable. Solas is far from a troll: he's a reasonable, coherent poster who believes something and wants to test it. Science is based on creating hypotheses and then testing them, and solas found some research and wants to try replicating it.

If you manage to get access to a lab to do an experiment, make sure you use a control. You'll want to run the procedure by the forum members- or at least by a responsible scientist.

The reason I'm telling you this is because of personal experience: This summer, I interned with a chemistry research lab at Boston University, and because of an experiment that I designed incorrectly, spent weeks chasing a fictitious result. The hypothesis I made (while not paranormal in any sense) was interesting, biologically relevant, and physically plausible- it "sounded" reasonable to me. So is your idea. But that doesn't mean you should trust it- make sure the experiment is properly designed and avoids all possible contamination. Your greatest critic should be yourself- think "How could this experiment give a false positive?"

Then, feel free to try it out. I might note that, with a few hundred dollars in capital, you could probably create your own setup- and you'll probably have to. Professors are not known for giving use of their labs to people trying to discover "death photons."
It was a friend (phd) who suggested looking into the experiment in the first place. She finds it as dubious as anyone looking through the eyes of a scientist, the theory supplied is not definitive and leaves room for query, but this only provokes further questioning of the topic, especially with regard to the biological relationship and properties of electromagnetism.. In her words:

the human brain contains biogenic material such as magnite (a black mineral form of crystaline iron oxide) and there is a growing field of study in biomagnetism and electromagnetic therapies, that is if electromagnetic impulses in general disrupt our own electrophysiology sufficiently to cause disease, is there an energy signature that might heal or renew cells.

Most of our neurological pathways are based on a loosely termed "electric system" and bone is being shown to be electrical in nature. The bone matrix is a biphasic (two-part) semiconductor.

Whether we can conciously or unconciously project such electrical signatures is another matter, but many established scientists have proposed that the biomagnetic properties of the brain may be sufficient to generate an signal, especially in times of distress but the exact science of this would be the realm of a neurophysacist, which I am not.


To the topic at hand, my answer has been in response to this threads initial question "is there any hard evidence for the paranormal" and is straightforward considering the actual terminology of the word.
if paranormal is considered "not understandable in terms of known scientific laws and phenomena" then with reason there is an amount of phenomena not currently understood in terms of the above. I do have a link to a scientific experiement which demonstrates some effects of "paranormal" activity, the nature of which has yet to be fully understood by scientific means.It's not my claim but reason must submit to acknowledging that there are many areas of science which are inconclusive, electromagnetism being one of them and therefore the values of which may at times be considered paranormal in nature.

[Nyarlathotep]

I brought up over 2,000,000 hits when I googled virtual cell pattern btw, the first three were edu. related sites.


Ummm, you are aware that the number of hits you get when googling a phrase, especially when you don't look at it as a single phrase, says nothing one way or the other about how whether a phenomenon exists.

I just googled alien conspiracy theory and got 1.7 million hits. Nonetheless, I'm not quite ready to claim George Bush is a reptoid just yet.
;)

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Trolling, Trolling, Trolling; RAWHIDE!

LLH

[JohnF_73]

if paranormal is considered "not understandable in terms of known scientific laws and phenomena" then with reason there is an amount of phenomena not currently understood in terms of the above.

I won't speak for everyone here, but I would suggest that that is not what most sceptics would define as "paranormal"

[solas]

mmm, you are aware that the number of hits you get when googling a phrase, especially when you don't look at it as a single phrase, says nothing one way or the other about how whether a phenomenon exists.ummmm.,..yes. :rolleyes: I was responding to two posts which claimed nothing had turned up with the keyword, wheras my search turned up over 2m items.

[solas]

I won't speak for everyone here, but I would suggest that that is not what most sceptics would define as "paranormal"its the dictionary definition of paranormal.
dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=paranormal)
Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation:
: not understandable in terms of known scientific laws and phenomena <experiments in paranormal cognition of drawings —Psychological Abstracts> —para·nor·mal·ly /-E/ adverb
dj 1: seemingly outside normal sensory channels [syn: extrasensory] [ant: sensory] 2: not in accordance with scientific laws; "what seemed to be paranormal manifestations" [ant: normal]
I asked if there was an alternative definition which would serve me better. Is there?

[drkitten]

you mean a signal is relayed into nearby cells which replicates the virus? the only difference in these dynamics is the level of observation of the process

No. The key difference is the nature of the signal -- and, indeed, whether there is a "signal" at all in any conventional sense of the word.

A virus spreads, not by sending a signal, but by physically replicating itself as a biochemical object, and then by physically invading the target cell. In broad terms, viruses can be seen as self-replicating chemical poisons. There's no "signal" in the traditional sense of a message generated by one cell and then interpreted by the next. And to the best of our knowledge, no photons or any other electromagnetic information transfer is involved at all.

[solas]

No. The key difference is the nature of the signal -- and, indeed, whether there is a "signal" at all in any conventional sense of the word.
A virus spreads, not by sending a signal, but by physically replicating itself as a biochemical object, and then by physically invading the target cell. In broad terms, viruses can be seen as self-replicating chemical poisons. There's no "signal" in the traditional sense of a message generated by one cell and then interpreted by the next. And to the best of our knowledge, no photons or any other electromagnetic information transfer is involved at all.I believe I've already answered this question. The truth is there is no definitive mechanism by which cell signals are relayed, in the same way, a fire may be started via numerous methods be it radiation, conduction or convention.
See my response on the topic of biomagnetism in post#111.

[Psiload]

ummmm.,..yes. :rolleyes: I was responding to two posts which claimed nothing had turned up with the keyword, wheras my search turned up over 2m items. You didn't give us a keyword, you gave us a key phrase... a key phrase which garnered exactly zero items.

You did your search incorrectly. I'm sure that you're well aware of this as it has already been explained to you... twice. Stop trying to make yourself look less foolish, you're only accomplishing the opposite.

[solas]

You didn't give us a keyword, you gave us a key phrase... a key phrase which garnered exactly zero items.the "keyphrase" generated 2million hits on my computer.

[solas]

Stop trying to make yourself look less foolish, you're only accomplishing the opposite.why do you feel the need to denigrate people? I'm finding Jref to be anything but an enlightening inquisitive educational group, it seems to be everything but. Perhaps your really abunch of over acheivers in disguise. :rolleyes:
I'll leave you folks content yourselves.

[CFLarsen]

why do you feel the need to denigrate people? I'm finding Jref to be anything but an enlightening inquisitive educational group, it seems to be everything but. Perhaps your really abunch of over acheivers in disguise. :rolleyes:
I'll leave you folks content yourselves.
You make the claim.

We ask for evidence.

You run away.

[solas]

awww. You win I guess. Your all too smart for me.

[Nyarlathotep]

the "keyphrase" generated 2million hits on my computer.

Do it with the phrase in quotes. If you don't, it will give you a hit on onything that contains all three words regardless of their relation to each other. Thus virtual cell patterns could turn up a page where someone talks about spending virtually all of his free time looking for winning patterns while playing free cell on his computer. Not quite what you want. IF you put it in quotes it will look for those words together AS A PHRASE. So only a page that actually mentions "virtual cell patterns" would get a hit. Your two million hits doesn't mean anything in that light.

[Psiload]

why do you feel the need to denigrate people? I'm finding Jref to be anything but an enlightening inquisitive educational group, it seems to be everything but. Perhaps your really abunch of over acheivers in disguise. :rolleyes:


You denigrated yourself, I merely called attention to it. You were being dishonest. It's really that simple.

I'll leave you folks content yourselves.

You'll be back.

They always come back.

[Nyarlathotep]

awww. You win I guess. Your all too smart for me.


Sorry to make you cry.

[Belz...]

apparantly, this experiment has been carried out no less than five thousand times, in which case the results can be validated via replication.

That's the crux.

[Belz...]

ie:In other words, as the infected cells died, they emitted what was observed as "death photons" which contained the template pattern of their death condition.

Death photons who transmit death conditions... yeah... that'll work

I'm with Ashles on this one. Quantum Morbidity it is.

[Belz...]

the experiment is designed to observe "contamination" on an atomic level, not to prove that contamination exists.

Contamination on an atomic level. You don't know the first thing about diseases, do you ?

[The_Fire]

I just googled alien conspiracy theory and got 1.7 million hits. Nonetheless, I'm not quite ready to claim George Bush is a reptoid just yet.
;)

Are you completely sure about that?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/conspire.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_humanoid

[Belz...]

yes. A photon containing a particular frequency being transmitted to and affecting an independant cell. [the wave nature of light]

Photons do not contain information about medical conditions. They're just energy, man.

no elves, virtual cell patterns for sure.

For sure

Yes I believe in photons. I believe in Heisenberg's uncertainty principal, but just because Star Trek refers to 'Heisenberg Compensators' doesn't mean I believe in teleportation.

Of course not, Ashles. You'd need pattern buffers for that.

[/Geek]

[drkitten]

I believe I've already answered this question.

Um, yes. And I pointed out that there was a flaw in your answer. [Shrug].

The truth is there is no definitive mechanism by which cell signals are relayed, in the same way, a fire may be started via numerous methods be it radiation, conduction or convention.

Not quite. There are indeed many mechanisms that we know of by which cell signals are relayed -- but all the mechanisms that we know of are chemical (broadly defined). A few of them could be described as electrochemical, as they involve specifically ion transfer.

There are a lot of ways that a fire can start -- but there are an even larger number of ways that it can't. You can't use "radiation, conduction, or convection" to support a theory of "tiny invisible salamanders that sneak in through the carpet." Similarly, there are a lot of ways that cells can signal, but photon exchange is neither known, nor believed, to be among them, largely because there is no evidence to support it.



See my response on the topic of biomagnetism in post#111.

Your "Ph.D" friend admits that he was talking outside of his area of expertise. In particular, it's fairly evident to me that he's taking the claims of the people who do electromagnetic therapy far too much at face value (the evidence for efficacy of such therapy is thin to the point of nonexistence), and either doesn't understand the nervous system or was oversimplifying it greatly to discuss it with you.

(I should note that "Ph.D.", by itself, doesn't mean much. Ph.D.'s specialize. Taking medical advice from a "Doctor" in history is its own punishment.)

[Belz...]

If one tried to replicate this, and it actually worked, despite every reason to the contrary, there would be so much research money ploughed into this right now it might create some sort of monetary singularity and destroy the universe.

HA! :D

he suggests that all living organisms emit gravitational (electromagnetic) waves.

Okay, now I KNOW you don't have a clue. Electromagnetic waves and gravitational waves are NOT, repeat: NOT the same thing.

[Mojo]

Ummm, you are aware that the number of hits you get when googling a phrase, especially when you don't look at it as a single phrase, says nothing one way or the other about how whether a phenomenon exists. I don't know about that: I think we managed to establish that Kumar is an idiot (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1014169#post1014169)! :D

[Belz...]

why do you feel the need to denigrate people? I'm finding Jref to be anything but an enlightening inquisitive educational group, it seems to be everything but. Perhaps your really abunch of over acheivers in disguise. :rolleyes:
I'll leave you folks content yourselves.

Simply making claims is insufficient, here. We're not at kindergarden.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by solas:
the "keyphrase" generated 2million hits on my computer.
Do it with the phrase in quotes. If you don't, it will give you a hit on onything that contains all three words regardless of their relation to each other. Thus virtual cell patterns could turn up a page where someone talks about spending virtually all of his free time looking for winning patterns while playing free cell on his computer. Not quite what you want. IF you put it in quotes it will look for those words together AS A PHRASE. So only a page that actually mentions "virtual cell patterns" would get a hit. Your two million hits doesn't mean anything in that light.Oh Ed, we really are back to the Kumar/googlefight (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1015692#post1015692) thread! :rolleyes:

[Nyarlathotep]

Oh Ed, we really are back to the Kumar/googlefight (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1015692#post1015692) thread! :rolleyes:

I missed that one. I do engage in a bit of googlewhacking (http://www.googlewhack.com/), from time to time, though.:)