Am I a homophobe?

[stamenflicker]

I thought this would make a decent discussion thread, even if I've pretty much reached my conclusion on the matter. But you guys are a lot smarter than me, so help if see if maybe I'm wrong.

BACKDROP: I am an avid, rabid comic book collector and have been since childhood. I like DC over Marvel because DC tends to be more "fantastical" than Marvel, which tries for a little more "real world" in their books. DC is however incorportating more and more real world themes (maybe in an attempt to beat Marvel-- I dunno).

One of these real world bits that is appearing more often than I'm used to, is homosexuality. Now, I'm no Bible thumper when it comes to homosexuality. I figure the best or worst I can say about it is that I don't really have a point of reference for it as a heterosexual, therefore it is none of my business.

I have gay friends, and homosexuals frequent our church. We're not pro-gay or anti-gay, we just don't make anyone's bedroom experiences into pulpit conversation because no one really benefits from such.

At the same time though, the whole "gay" thing in comics just doesn't seem to fit to me. It's like I trip over it when I'm reading. I will go as far as to say I wish homosexuality was not portrayed in the books I buy or read for leisure or nostalgia.

Before you go all hog wild on me, I don't think its fair to think somehow I am a homophobe. I have gay friends and a couple of them I know don't really find Julie Robert's movies to be a relaxing way to spend the hour. I don't think they are hetero-phobes. I just think they have a limited amount of time in the day, and that particular portrayal in movies just doesn't seem to be where they want to spend it.

So I've been reading these sorts of stories for a long, long time without the gay issue, and I've come to enjoy them. Over the past few years though, it's creeping into the books in a non-ambigious way that like I said, trips me up. It doesn't bother me enough for me to quit reading, it just makes it more like reading real world fiction than a comic book.

I feel like I have many mediums in which to turn for profound representations, or even ordinary representations of homosexuality. I wasn't afraid of Brokeback M., I knew what I was going to see. But my comic books? It changes everything I ever read them for, which was super heroes fighting super villians. I feel like it cheapens the whole escape from reality when they start throwing reality in my face.

Am I a homophobe?

Flick

[ImaginalDisc]

Dude, have you never read a Batman comicbook? Batman's gay. He's been gay since the 50's.

[Tricky]

Dude, have you never read a Batman comicbook? Batman's gay. He's been gay since the 50's.
So what makes "The Boy Wonder" so wonderful?

[ImaginalDisc]

So what makes "The Boy Wonder" so wonderful?

He's obviously hung, and I don't mean by a bat-cable. Why else would Alfred call him "Master Dick"?

[alfaniner]

I remember Marvel as being the first to introduce a few gay characters, villains, if I recall correctly. I've never been a Marvel zombie but I think the same thing happened in DC many years ago (Thunder and Lightning?). I bought many comics faithfully until about 5 years ago, then my comic shop closed and I just. Stopped.

I have four longboxes of stuff I haven't read yet. I'm surprised that current issues are dealing with that sort of thing in an open way.

I think the last exposure I had to that was the graphic novel Spider-Man collection where Aunt May was so relieved to find that Peter Parker was Spider-Man, where she thought he was so secretive because she thought he was gay. I know she would have accepted him either way but...

[Pauliesonne]

I thought this would make a decent discussion thread, even if I've pretty much reached my conclusion on the matter. But you guys are a lot smarter than me, so help if see if maybe I'm wrong.

BACKDROP: I am an avid, rabid comic book collector and have been since childhood. I like DC over Marvel because DC tends to be more "fantastical" than Marvel, which tries for a little more "real world" in their books. DC is however incorportating more and more real world themes (maybe in an attempt to beat Marvel-- I dunno).

One of these real world bits that is appearing more often than I'm used to, is homosexuality. Now, I'm no Bible thumper when it comes to homosexuality. I figure the best or worst I can say about it is that I don't really have a point of reference for it as a heterosexual, therefore it is none of my business.

I have gay friends, and homosexuals frequent our church. We're not pro-gay or anti-gay, we just don't make anyone's bedroom experiences into pulpit conversation because no one really benefits from such.

At the same time though, the whole "gay" thing in comics just doesn't seem to fit to me. It's like I trip over it when I'm reading. I will go as far as to say I wish homosexuality was not portrayed in the books I buy or read for leisure or nostalgia.

Before you go all hog wild on me, I don't think its fair to think somehow I am a homophobe. I have gay friends and a couple of them I know don't really find Julie Robert's movies to be a relaxing way to spend the hour. I don't think they are hetero-phobes. I just think they have a limited amount of time in the day, and that particular portrayal in movies just doesn't seem to be where they want to spend it.

So I've been reading these sorts of stories for a long, long time without the gay issue, and I've come to enjoy them. Over the past few years though, it's creeping into the books in a non-ambigious way that like I said, trips me up. It doesn't bother me enough for me to quit reading, it just makes it more like reading real world fiction than a comic book.

I feel like I have many mediums in which to turn for profound representations, or even ordinary representations of homosexuality. I wasn't afraid of Brokeback M., I knew what I was going to see. But my comic books? It changes everything I ever read them for, which was super heroes fighting super villians. I feel like it cheapens the whole escape from reality when they start throwing reality in my face.

Am I a homophobe?

Flick

Let's try another situation;

50's America.

Man has black friends but man does not want his world covered with black people.

[thaiboxerken]

I have black friends, but I don't like to watch movies or read books with black people in them. Am I racist?

(I'm not serious with this, just illustrating a point.)

[Dr Adequate]

Jimmy Olsen --- transvestite (http://tgfa.org/comics/jimmy_olsen/jimmy_olsen.htm)

http://tgfa.org/comics/other/images/JOlsen_95_62.jpg

http://tgfa.org/comics/jimmy_olsen/images/JOlsen_159_04.jpg

http://tgfa.org/comics/jimmy_olsen/images/JOlsen_67_01.jpg

[thaiboxerken]

I have gay friends and a couple of them I know don't really find Julie Robert's movies to be a relaxing way to spend the hour. I don't think they are hetero-phobes.

Ever think that they just don't like Julia Robert's movies and that it has nothing to do with sexual orientation? I'm a heterosexual and can't stand Julia Robert's movies, she's a horrible actress, has a weird lip and is built like Skeletor.

[AnotherSillyAlias]

Am I a homophobe?

Flick

I don't know but if you are, and your reaction to it is limited to not reading certain comics, or enjoying them less, then it doesn't really matter if you are, or are not.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, so long as your opinions do not negatively affect anyone else then there is no problem.

I don't watch gay porn. Does this make me a homophobe? I don't believe so, it's personal choice and nothing more.

[Pauliesonne]

I have black friends, but I don't like to watch movies or read books with black people in them. Am I racist?

(I'm not serious with this, just illustrating a point.)

I don't know about anyone else, but to me you would be a racist.

[stamenflicker]

Let's try another situation;

50's America.

Man has black friends but man does not want his world covered with black people.

Well, skin color doesn't require disclosure, sexual orientation does. The characters are pretty much asexual until a writer discloses, meaning unlike coloring a character, then adding interesting story related dialogue, you pretty much have to alter the story in some way to get to disclosure of orientation.

So the issue then is that there have always been heterosexual disclosures, like Lois and Clark, but few homosexual disclosures. I've enjoyed some of the stories-- like Green Arrow hunting down a group of gay bashers. But it seems of late that authors are just tossing a token homosexual that ends up taking up a panel or two of the book and really doesn't contribute to the story.

I figured I've answered my own question. Not enjoying the current placement of homosexuality in my favorite books, I called up one of my gay friends and asked him if I was being discriminatory at all in my reading leisure. He didn't seem too worried. In fact, he laughed at me.

His take was different than mine. He stated that if characters appeared on little kids pajamas and lunch boxes there probably shouldn't be much space wasted on their bedroom behaviors. Of greater concern than bedroom behavior would be the current trend toward violence in most children's media outlets. Made sense to me.

Flick

[geni]

But it seems of late that authors are just tossing a token homosexual that ends up taking up a panel or two of the book and really doesn't contribute to the story.


I blame watchmen.

[KelvinG]

I'm a very liberal person when it comes to gay rights, but I would be totally lying if I said that I didn't squirm in discomfort on more than a few occasions during Brokeback Mountain.
I think it's natural for a love story about two men not to resonate with straight guys. I don't think that makes us homophobes.
Does it?

[Orangutango]

Hi, Stamenflicker.:)

As both a lesbian and a reader of comic books, I thought that perhaps I would be able to adress your question.

Do I think you are a homophobe based upon what you had stated in your post...? The short answer: no.

We all have personal preferences when it comes to what we do or do not enjoy. For myself, I have a pet peeve in regards to those comics (specifically, ones that involve groups or teams of superheroes) where the writer feels the need to have the characters represent every ethnic, racial, religious and sexual preference background solely for the purpose of being "politically correct". Does that make me a bigot or a racist? Not at all... I just happen to believe that going out of their way to be PC gets in the way of telling a good story.

Now, if you were to say "I'm never reading this comic again!" simply because there happens to be a gay character in it, weeeeell.... then perhaps you might have some issues to look into....:)

Jen

Btw... is it me, or does Jimmy Olsen look hot in drag...? :eye-poppi

[David Swidler]

It's just you.

[Dancing David]

I wouldn't say that you are a homo-phobe, but having a personal identification with the characters you read about. Therefore there is a disconnect when they are gay.

But I find that there is an amazing lack of gay characters in most modern media, perhaps not as telling as the lack of people of color in media but there nonetheless.
Have you watched the movie 'Love Actualy"?

I don't get why people would not appreciate literature that contains characters unl;ike them, I read about elves and people with magic all the time, or ancient history, I like literature that is not about me.

Back to Stamenflick, what makes you uncomfortable about gays in comics, would it be okay if they were gay but didn't talk about it?
What is they were hetero , does that bother you, I know probably not.
What is the difference, I know we are not talking about gay porn comics.

[Ossai]

Orangutango
As both a lesbian and a reader of comic books, I thought that perhaps I would be able to adress your question.
Damit! All the female comic readers I know are lesbians. There just has to be a hetro woman that reads comics somewhere.

Ossai

[Genesius]

Damit! All the female comic readers I know are lesbians. There just has to be a hetro woman that reads comics somewhere.

Ossai

Well, I know of one. Unfortunately for you, I'm married to her. :p

[Dr Adequate]

Btw... is it me, or does Jimmy Olsen look hot in drag...? :eye-poppi See ... we told you you'd meet the right man eventually ...

[Curnir]

Btw... is it me, or does Jimmy Olsen look hot in drag...? :eye-poppi

I plead the fifth. :D

[hgc]

...we just don't make anyone's bedroom experiences into pulpit conversation because no one really benefits from such.
...Here's a point you should consider: Homosexuality is not just about someone's "bedroom experiences." Heterosexual couples and families have position and presense in society that goes far beyond what happens in the bedroom. Many homosexuals want the same acknowlegement and acceptance for their relationships. Frankly, it's easy to ignore what goes on in the bedroom, because it's private and you're not in there with them. Do homosexual couples attend your church and displaly the same outward signs of affection that hetero couples do? If not, you might want to ask yourself if a discussion from the pulpit about accepting all your members' loving relationships in public, thus granting them their rightful place in society, is appropriate.

[LW]

Batman's gay. He's been gay since the 50's.

Hey, there could be some alternative explanation for this (http://www.superdickery.com/seduction/1.html) or this (http://www.superdickery.com/seduction/38.html) or this (http://www.superdickery.com/seduction/39.html). And this (http://www.superdickery.com/seduction/51.html) and this (http://www.superdickery.com/seduction/65.html) and this (http://www.superdickery.com/seduction/73.html).

[Beerina]

Jimmy Olsen --- transvestite (http://tgfa.org/comics/jimmy_olsen/jimmy_olsen.htm)

http://tgfa.org/comics/other/images/JOlsen_95_62.jpg

http://tgfa.org/comics/jimmy_olsen/images/JOlsen_159_04.jpg

http://tgfa.org/comics/jimmy_olsen/images/JOlsen_67_01.jpg

This is transvestisism, and many (most?) men who get a kick out of dressing like a woman aren't gay or bi. They like women so much, in fact, that this makes them feel closer to them. Or so said someone on Phil Donahue anyway...

[Beerina]

Btw... is it me, or does Jimmy Olsen look hot in drag...? :eye-poppi

Well, you'll notice his waist slimmed down to have a sexy, female hip-to-waist ratio, and his legs lengthened to match a female's leg-to-torso length ratio. And pencil-thin arms under the sweater (not that he's that bulky to start with.) And he didn't need to shave his legs. And easily found dollar-store heels that fit his male feet.

[wastepanel]

I find this to be a very interesting topic. I often find myself in this conversation regarding other forms of entertainment. For example, after my wife had our son, she really began enjoying Ellen Degeneras in the afternoons. When she first told me how much she loved the show, my first response was "I used to love her old show (These Friends of Mine, Ellen) and her stand up routines, but once she came out of the closet, I lost interest." My wife accused me of be homophobic. In actuality, I just didn't like listening to gay jokes every 5 seconds, and every storyline being about "Ellen is gay, so this week...". It was a good show, but when every storyline was basically the same, it got boring...fast. I have the same objections about Will and Grace.

I have friends that are gay. They don't walk around reminding me they are gay every 5 seconds. Every conversation doesn't revolve around the fact. I don't bring up the fact I'm hetero every 5 seconds, why should they? Yeah, if they are having relationship problems or its fitting, we talk about stuff. In fact, I'm surprised that there are not more homosexuals complaining about how their lives are portrayed. To me, it seems like the writers of these shows and others go out of their way to remind the viewers what they are watching.

[hgc]

... I have the same objections about Will and Grace. ... I'm surprised that there are not more homosexuals complaining about how their lives are portrayed.Yeah, Jack and Karen (in role of fag-hag) do a kind of gay Step 'n Fetchit routine. But I guess they like to laugh at themselves too, like most social groups. I think the show is dreadful because it's not funny, but offensive? nah.

[Orangutango]

See ... we told you you'd meet the right man eventually ...

You... you mean I'm cured???? Hooray!!! I'm straight!!! :D :p

[Pauliesonne]

Yeah, Jack and Karen (in role of fag-hag) do a kind of gay Step 'n Fetchit routine. But I guess they like to laugh at themselves too, like most social groups. I think the show is dreadful because it's not funny, but offensive? nah.

It used to be funny but now it sucks.

[Orangutango]

This is transvestisism, and many (most?) men who get a kick out of dressing like a woman aren't gay or bi. They like women so much, in fact, that this makes them feel closer to them. Or so said someone on Phil Donahue anyway...

I agree. I know a few cross-dressers, and they say that statistics show that the numbers who are heterosexual is around 80%.

[Dr Adequate]

You... you mean I'm cured???? Hooray!!! I'm straight!!! :D :p Well, we've all been praying for you.

[Steven Howard]

For example, after my wife had our son
...
I don't bring up the fact I'm hetero every 5 seconds

Just sayin'.

[wastepanel]

Just sayin'.

You (I'm straight) are correct (did I mention I like girls?). Why would I (dang, I saw this girl the other day, and...wow...) bring the fact up (Anyone seen Angelina Jolie lately? hot, hot, hot...) that I'm straight that often (Never been with a guy or thought of one in that way).

Sincerely (and straight, not gay)

wastepanel (heterosexual)

[Hagrok]

Just sayin'.

Apparently you missed:

...Yeah, if they are having relationship problems or its fitting, we talk about stuff...

[Scot C. Trypal]

Anyone see the episode of Law and Order where one of the female DAs left the show? Her character was being fired for upsetting her higher-ups and at the end she asked something like “I just have to know. Is this because I’m a lesbian?”

I’d watched that show many times and never considered her sexuality, and I thought the way she was outed was perfect. There was no big dramatic coming out. All her coworkers already knew it, through the entire show; it just hadn’t come up until then (as far as I know), and in that sort of show, it really didn’t need to.

Don’t get me wrong, I want there to be out gay parts in film and tv (to the same extent that there are gay people), and I want media to look at the related issues. But I don’t want gays to be tossed in to a plot and bizarrely out regarding their sexual orientation simply because they are gay, as some cartoonish token that’s little else but gay. I also don’t want them to be plastic examples of how are gays super good people too. If that is what’s happening in these comics, Flick, I’d find that insulting too.

Eh, or maybe I’m a homophobe with you.

I’ve never chosen to sit through Will and Grace and if I get wind of a show “tackling gay issues” by some one-time interjection of a gay character I’ll avoid it. I did love Brokeback Mountain though. Must have, nothing else could’ve gotten me to listen to country :).

edited for a missing r

[bluess]

I agree. I know a few cross-dressers, and they say that statistics show that the numbers who are heterosexual is around 80%.

I just can't see myself with a guy who looks better in a dress than I do.

[Orangutango]

I just can't see myself with a guy who looks better in a dress than I do.

You're preaching to the choir, sister....:o

Well, we've all been praying for you.

Grrrrrrr.... :p

[Orangutango]

Don’t get me wrong, I want there to be out gay parts in film and tv (to the same extent that there are gay people), and I want media to look at the related issues. But I don’t want gays to be tossed in to a plot and bizarrely out regarding their sexual orientation simply because they are gay, as some cartoonish token that’s little else but gay. I also don’t want them to be plastic examples of how are gays super good people too. If that is what’s happening in these comics, Flick, I’d find that insulting too.


I agree with you, Scot. Do you remember when Northstar (from Marvel's "Alpha Flight") was revealed to be gay? Back issues of that comic skyrocketed due to the controversial (for that time) subject matter. I believe that this was even covered in the news media.

I was torn between being thrilled that Marvel would have the guts to have a hero (as opposed to a villan) coming out of the closet and being left to wonder if they were only using the subject of homosexuality as "shock value" in order to boost-up interest in a mediocre comic...

I found this link that lists every GLBT character in comics. Even I was somewhat shocked at the large number of such chatacters!

http://www.gayleague.com/gay/characters/index.php

[thaiboxerken]

I think it's great that the Marvel world actually tries to make people their universe as diverse as ours.

[Tricky]

http://valiante.plugnpay.com/scstore/graphics/straight%20but%20not%20narrow%20large.jpg

[Orangutango]

Great button, Tricky! Know where I can buy some in bulk to hand out to my straight friends?:)

[Scot C. Trypal]

I found this link that lists every GLBT character in comics. Even I was somewhat shocked at the large number of such chatacters!

http://www.gayleague.com/gay/characters/index.php

Wow!

I had no idea.

I didn’t look at them all but there seems to be a good deal of variety. My curiosity is peaked regarding early gay villains and I’ll dig into the list later.

Still, at least they don’t all have something like “amazing powers of accessorizing and room decor”… “Holy duvet covers Batman! My fashion sense is tingling”….

[bluess]

Wow!

I had no idea.

I didn’t look at them all but there seems to be a good deal of variety. My curiosity is peaked regarding early gay villains and I’ll dig into the list later.

Still, at least they don’t all have something like “amazing powers of accessorizing and room decor”… “Holy duvet covers Batman! My fashion sense is tingling”….


I just spit coffee out all over my keyboard. Thanks, Scot. :)

[Tricky]

Great button, Tricky! Know where I can buy some in bulk to hand out to my straight friends?:)
I found mine at the Houston Women's Festival, but I just googled for the image. I got a lot of hits.

[meg]

I feel like I have many mediums in which to turn for profound representations, or even ordinary representations of homosexuality. I wasn't afraid of Brokeback M., I knew what I was going to see. But my comic books? It changes everything I ever read them for, which was super heroes fighting super villians. I feel like it cheapens the whole escape from reality when they start throwing reality in my face.

Am I a homophobe?


I don't read a lot of comic books, so I can't address what you have seen that bothers you. And you don't describe specific things, only general trends, so I'm making some assumptions about what you're talking about.

That said, I'm going to say it. I think you might be a bit homophobic. Here's why. Your "old fasioned" comic books have always contained a lot more stuff than superheroes fighting supervillains. There's almost always a love interest. There's sexual tension. There's flirting and intrigue with members of the opposite sex. There's ogling and sexual innuendos on almost every page. You just don't really notice it, I guess.

Now, imagine the superhero is gay. All of a sudden all that background story takes on a slightly different meaning. If his "ex" shows up, it will be a guy. If he remembers his first kiss, it might be with a guy. It's the exact same story, just with a guy instead of a girl. You notice it more because it seems "strange" to you. They're not flaunting gayness every five seconds, they're telling the same stories they always do in the same way they always do, just this time the hero is gay.

Two sentences of yours also make me question.

"I will go as far as to say I wish homosexuality was not portrayed in the books I buy or read for leisure or nostalgia."

and

"I feel like it cheapens the whole escape from reality when they start throwing reality in my face."

Come on, Flick. Are you really not able to experience leisure or nostalgia if there is a homosexual in the book? Or, is it more true that you won't let yourself relax and enjoy that story? Do you get a little concerned about yourself enjoying a story about a gay guy?

Are you really unable to "escape from reality" with a comic book if there's a homosexual character?

Would another way to word that be to say that you are uncomfortable having fantasies that might involve homosexuals? If yes, why?

Maybe that's something worth looking at and thinking about.

Just thinking.

Meg

[ImaginalDisc]

Look everybody, it's the Olsen Twins!


Come on, no one said it yet?
Jimmy Olsen --- transvestite (http://tgfa.org/comics/jimmy_olsen/jimmy_olsen.htm)

http://tgfa.org/comics/other/images/JOlsen_95_62.jpg

http://tgfa.org/comics/jimmy_olsen/images/JOlsen_159_04.jpg

http://tgfa.org/comics/jimmy_olsen/images/JOlsen_67_01.jpg

[geni]

mistake

[thaiboxerken]

They also missed the Ambiguously Gay Duo

http://www.rotten.com/library/culture/ambiguously-gay-duo/

[stamenflicker]

Come on, Flick. Are you really not able to experience leisure or nostalgia if there is a homosexual in the book?

How about less likely?

Or, is it more true that you won't let yourself relax and enjoy that story? Do you get a little concerned about yourself enjoying a story about a gay guy?

Well, like I said there have been books where I hardly noticed at all, because it seemed to just fit with fighting injustice. It just seems to be more a political statement now-- maybe because its always in the papers or on the news anymore, so comics seemed to be a nice place to escape the debate.

Are you really unable to "escape from reality" with a comic book if there's a homosexual character?

Yeah in a way. I compare it to not really knowing the sexual orientation of Obi Wan in the Star Wars movies. Lucas could have made him gay to "balance" out the heterosexual characters, but he didn't so I never had to feel like he was trying.

Would another way to word that be to say that you are uncomfortable having fantasies that might involve homosexuals? If yes, why?

Hmmm. Is that a trick question? I find the thought of being with another man disgusting at so many levels. And my homosexual friends cringe at the thought of vaginas. It's the way we are wired.

Just thinking.

I sincerely appreciate the thoughts. I don't want this to bother me. But yet I can't help but feel like it does. With a name like stamenflicker you'd think it wouldn't :)

Flick

[ImaginalDisc]

How about less likely?



Well, like I said there have been books where I hardly noticed at all, because it seemed to just fit with fighting injustice. It just seems to be more a political statement now-- maybe because its always in the papers or on the news anymore, so comics seemed to be a nice place to escape the debate.


Wait a tick, it's only ok for a character to be gay the story's about fighting injustice? Why can't there just be a nice romantic homosexual love story? Why can't a protagonist mention what a wonderful, stable family his two moms gave him? Why can't gay people have the same ordinary posisitions in stories as straight people?

[stamenflicker]

Wait a tick, it's only ok for a character to be gay the story's about fighting injustice? Why can't there just be a nice romantic homosexual love story? Why can't a protagonist mention what a wonderful, stable family his two moms gave him? Why can't gay people have the same ordinary posisitions in stories as straight people?

I never said they couldn't, only that I enjoy those stories less.

Flick

[GreyPilgrim]

http://www.flamingmango.com/personal/funnystuff/spidey13.jpg

http://www.flamingmango.com/personal/funnystuff/spidey01.jpg

http://www.flamingmango.com/personal/funnystuff/spidey02.jpg

[Ossai]

Orangutango
I found this link that lists every GLBT character in comics. Even I was somewhat shocked at the large number of such chatacters!
The list is not entirely accurate.
For instance Colossus in the Ultimate line is gay, but in the Astonishing X-Men, they’re still going with the Colossus / Kitty background.

The list of characters is also incomplete. The Crimson Fox (one of the sisters but I don’t remember if it was the first or second) is gay. There are also some characters from ABC comics, Promethia specifically, that aren’t listed as well as some Astro City characters. But if they can list Cobweb then they should list the other characters.

It also doesn’t list the supporting characters.

Ossai

[Orangutango]

Orangutango

The list is not entirely accurate.
For instance Colossus in the Ultimate line is gay, but in the Astonishing X-Men, they’re still going with the Colossus / Kitty background.

The list of characters is also incomplete. The Crimson Fox (one of the sisters but I don’t remember if it was the first or second) is gay. There are also some characters from ABC comics, Promethia specifically, that aren’t listed as well as some Astro City characters. But if they can list Cobweb then they should list the other characters.

It also doesn’t list the supporting characters.

Ossai

You're right on every account. I checked to see if the list might have an older one, but it seems that the website has been updated as recently as last month. I'll send them off an e-mail to pass on the characters you mentioned.

Jen

[epepke]

Anyone see the episode of Law and Order where one of the female DAs left the show? Her character was being fired for upsetting her higher-ups and at the end she asked something like “I just have to know. Is this because I’m a lesbian?”

I always thought that the best way to field that question would have been, "You're a lesbian? Learn something new every day."

[Scot C. Trypal]

I always thought that the best way to field that question would have been, "You're a lesbian? Learn something new every day."

Ah, but the implication her boss knew about it all along (but we did not) is what I liked about it the most. Unless the person is meticulously closeted and willing to lie to and/or alienate coworkers, I don’t think you can work with them without knowing to whom they go home at night.

Her orientation was never awkwardly forced into some “tackling gay issues” episode, and her person was greatly developed without being developed as a Gay person, but, at the end, in a subplot about her, she had a moment of paranoia, like many gays, and had to ask about it. I just thought it was one of the more sincere and civil ways to write a gay character into a show I’ve encountered. (eh, or maybe I’m reading too much into it.)

[Zbu]

Speaking as a comic book fan (or ex-, really), one of the things that always bothered me is when cheapjack writers tried adding homosexuality as a shock device which they attempted to pass off as real writing. Comics today seem to have this fascination with trying to be 'more adult' to escape the stigma of being a socially-retarded nerd who dwells in their parents' basement, and using homosexuality is one of the things they use offhandedly. Some writers do it well, and others are just hacks who throw it out there to play into the stigma of comics being the next best thing to high art without really caring about the implications.

Does this make you a homophobe? I'm not sure, it depends on your reaction. Personally, the lack of new and interesting characters in the comic world mean that a lot of these experiments by hack writers often results in revelations that run contrary to continuity (which is another big thing that comic writers feel they can play around with without regard to long-time readers) and then a reader could feel cheated when suddenly a long-running character does something uncharacterstic just for shock value. Perhaps it's the way that it's done is what could be putting you off.

[chance]

Just how far can one represent minorities or mediocrity before it just becomes ridiculous:

Super Eskimo man saves trapped whale! …. then eats him,

Super Transvestite Man, er no woman, er no man, er never mind. See him I mean her, no I mean, oh … by day he’s a .. no oh ….. stuff it.

Fantastic Britney Spears 4, by day they paint their nails and wash their hair, by night they fight crime in a popular well to do suburb of LA.

Super Bank Teller Man, saved from extinction by the radiation from his defective mobile phone, Super Bank Teller man battles the un-ending corporate crime…. See him analyse the fiscal year of Enron inc using his own light speed double entry book keeping super power, yawn.

[Soapy Sam]

Stamenflicker- A gripe of mine is when a fictional character from another fictional world is introduced into a work of fiction- for instance Sherlock Holmes appearing in a murder mystery by someone other than Conan Doyle. I find this introduces an element that simply disrupts my willing suspension of disbelief. Suddenly the tacit assumptions which allowed me to read the story happily are disrupted. I'm jerked out of the story into reality.
The same occurs if a real person is introduced into the story. (I'm never happy with historical novels for this reason, as I don't know what's real and what's not).

I think your feeling of annoyance at an unnecessary political message being grafted onto your comic novel is very similar- the mindset you have established to let you happily read what is basically a rather silly story has been disturbed. The introduction of the homosexual element highlights the essential silliness of the story and spoils your enjoyment.
I don't think it says anything at all about your attitude to homosexuality. It reflects your attitude to fiction, that's all.

[stamenflicker]

Speaking as a comic book fan (or ex-, really), one of the things that always bothered me is when cheapjack writers tried adding homosexuality as a shock device which they attempted to pass off as real writing. Comics today seem to have this fascination with trying to be 'more adult' to escape the stigma of being a socially-retarded nerd who dwells in their parents' basement, and using homosexuality is one of the things they use offhandedly. Some writers do it well, and others are just hacks who throw it out there to play into the stigma of comics being the next best thing to high art without really caring about the implications.

Does this make you a homophobe? I'm not sure, it depends on your reaction. Personally, the lack of new and interesting characters in the comic world mean that a lot of these experiments by hack writers often results in revelations that run contrary to continuity (which is another big thing that comic writers feel they can play around with without regard to long-time readers) and then a reader could feel cheated when suddenly a long-running character does something uncharacterstic just for shock value. Perhaps it's the way that it's done is what could be putting you off.

I think that's a pretty good summary of where I'm at. Occasionally its interesting dialogue that does fit in continuity, or at least it colors the story with good dialogue. But 90% of the time the panels feel forced. I really don't mind picking up a new title that has a big M for mature slapped on it, and reading about a new gay character. But when boyhood nostaglia gets coupled with token gay characters, HIV positive crime-fighters, and political discourse, I find that my reasons for reading the book in the first place have to shift out of esacpe mode and into reality. The fact that I don't really want to shift my reading habits from leisure/fantasy just to have to add to my real world reading stacks is the problem-- not the homosexuality, or AIDS sermons themselves. I suspect that is why Lucas never paid much attention to homsexuality in Star Wars. It just didn't fit with what he was trying to do in the medium of his particular story.

Flick

[Meadmaker]

Orangutango

Damit! All the female comic readers I know are lesbians. There just has to be a hetro woman that reads comics somewhere.

Ossai
My wife used to love them, but now they are out of her budget.

[Orangutango]

My wife used to love them, but now they are out of her budget.

What were some of her favorite titles?

[slingblade]

My heroes are Spiderman, the Hulk, and the Thing. I'm 47, female, and straight, except where I'm round. :)

[Orangutango]

Hmmmm... for myself, I would have to say my two favorite comic book characters are Marvel's Ghost Rider and DC Vertigo's Dream and Death of the Endless (Sandman).

[NeilC]

I think that's a pretty good summary of where I'm at. Occasionally its interesting dialogue that does fit in continuity, or at least it colors the story with good dialogue. But 90% of the time the panels feel forced. I really don't mind picking up a new title that has a big M for mature slapped on it, and reading about a new gay character. But when boyhood nostaglia gets coupled with token gay characters, HIV positive crime-fighters, and political discourse, I find that my reasons for reading the book in the first place have to shift out of esacpe mode and into reality. The fact that I don't really want to shift my reading habits from leisure/fantasy just to have to add to my real world reading stacks is the problem-- not the homosexuality, or AIDS sermons themselves. I suspect that is why Lucas never paid much attention to homsexuality in Star Wars. It just didn't fit with what he was trying to do in the medium of his particular story.

Flick

Is that what comic books are like these days? How very modern and PC!

No tough heros rescuing pumped up nymphs?

I think many men find the idea of actual gay sex pretty grim but that doesn't mean you are a bad person. As long as you treat people with respect and don't hurt them because they are gay then that is all anyone can ask from you. As far as I'm concerned, your thoughts on this sort of thing are your own business. If you don't find gay characters and situations to be pushing the right buttons in comic-land then so what? I don't think a "homophobe" would have gay friends personally.

[Ossai]

stamenflicker
But when boyhood nostaglia gets coupled with token gay characters, HIV positive crime-fighters, and political discourse, I find that my reasons for reading the book in the first place have to shift out of esacpe mode and into reality. So, been reading Green Arrow I see.

Ossai

[Spidey13]

http://ikevinc.blogs.friendster.com/photos/spiderman_on_crack/spidey16.html

Warning: dirty words.

[RandFan]

I'm a very liberal person when it comes to gay rights, but I would be totally lying if I said that I didn't squirm in discomfort on more than a few occasions during Brokeback Mountain.
I think it's natural for a love story about two men not to resonate with straight guys. I don't think that makes us homophobes.
Does it?Yeah, I suffer the same. It's odd, I don't mind hard core gay porn as much as I mind tenderness and kissing between two men. Yeah, I have seen hard core gay porn. Go figure.

My being uncomfortable is something I have really explored. I think there could be a genetic component and I was raised in a conservative community so environment certainly played a part. Please note that I see such reactions as irrational and I have changed a number of my positions on issues for intellectual reasons. I support full rights for gays and lesbians including the right to marry whereas I once campaigned against it.

I have said before on this forum but it bears repeating. I think succeeding generations will have less and less of a problem with it.

Here's to enlightenment and tolerance. :)

[Dr Adequate]

Grrrrrrr.... Ah yes ... the unmistakable sound of demons leaving the body.

The next part is messy and involves ectoplasm.

[Skeptic]

As both a lesbian and a reader of comic books, I...

...am the incarnation of the ultimate wet dream of every 15-year-old nerd with acne.

(Sorry, couldn't resist. Where's the damn "hides in a box" icon?)

[Skeptic]

I think it's great that the Marvel world actually tries to make people their universe as diverse as ours.

Great? Really?! Next thing you know, they'll let flying people with X-ray vision use OUR LUNCH COUNTERS!!!

[Orangutango]

As both a lesbian and a reader of comic books, I...

...am the incarnation of the ultimate wet dream of every 15-year-old nerd with acne.

(Sorry, couldn't resist. Where's the damn "hides in a box" icon?)

....and even some men in their 30's and 40's, too (with or without acne). :D

I can't tell you how many times I... or another female... while strolling through a comic book store, received covert (sometimes open) stares from some of the guys present. Even when I'm wearing my pink "Help control the ***-hole population: have a man neutered today" t-shirt, they still want to hit on me...:whistling

Btw... nice to meet you, Skeptic :)

[Orangutango]

Ah yes ... the unmistakable sound of demons leaving the body.

The next part is messy and involves ectoplasm.

Ewwwww.... I wasn't expecting green goo to come out of that orifice...:eye-poppi

My ears, people... I was refering to my ears.... :rolleyes: :p

[Scot C. Trypal]

Yeah, I suffer the same. It's odd, I don't mind hard core gay porn as much as I mind tenderness and kissing between two men. Yeah, I have seen hard core gay porn. Go figure.

My being uncomfortable is something I have really explored. I think there could be a genetic component and I was raised in a conservative community so environment certainly played a part. Please note that I see such reactions as irrational and I have changed a number of my positions on issues for intellectual reasons. I support full rights for gays and lesbians including the right to marry whereas I once campaigned against it.

I have said before on this forum but it bears repeating. I think succeeding generations will have less and less of a problem with it.

Here's to enlightenment and tolerance. :)

I think the difference between hard-core sex and simple loving intimacy is in the fact that the emotions of a homosexual (or heterosexual in my case) are more difficult to imagine for most than the base want for sexual climax. If it’s just sex, no love, no family, no head-over-heals commitment, maybe it’s easier for a gay and straight man to see some common ground in their shared base urges.

I’ve wondered about the mirror image: Could I have become a heterophobe if raised in a gay bizarro world?

Physical intimacy between a man and a woman has always struck me as unappealing and unnatural; I think I get what the woman is feeling, but the man? His feeling of intimate attraction are so alien he may as well be telling me the sun smells beautiful; I just don’t get the same qualia when observing the same thing. I can only imagine a similar thing is felt when a completely heterosexual woman considers looking at a woman in a sexual manner.

Still, I’ve never felt heterosexuality was anything near repugnant. I was raised with wonderful heterosexual role models in my parents, and in a conservative heterosexual culture where I wasn’t aware any homosexuals existed. All the TV, Movies, and Comics were about heterosexuals. With that upbringing, I gladly tolerate heterosexuals :), even though the feelings and actions involved with heterosexuality are strange and unappealing to me.

But what if I was raised by homosexuals in a homosexual community, by born fertility treatments, with nothing but gays on TV? I could see how my reflexive reaction to heterosexuality as unnatural could easily be molded, if the culture so wanted, into immoral or repulsive. It’s much more understandable than I’d like it to be.

[Orangutango]

I think the difference between hard-core sex and simple loving intimacy is in the fact that the emotions of a homosexual (or heterosexual in my case) are more difficult to imagine for most than the base want for sexual climax. If it’s just sex, no love, no family, no head-over-heals commitment, maybe it’s easier for a gay and straight man to see some common ground in their shared base urges.


Good point, Scot. One would think that it would be the other way around, but like you mentioned, perhaps it's because we are all sexual animals by nature.

I also agree with Randfan's observation that with each passing generation, the youth of today are more tolerant... if not necessarily more accepting... of "alternate lifestyles" (for lack of a better term).

Besides the fact that there is more positive representations of the GLBT community in all forms of media (including comic books), I have another theory as to why we... as a culture... are inevitably heading towards the day where we will be on an (somewhat) even-footing with the heterosexual community: just as it was with the hippie, punk, goth and grunge movements... to name a few... each generation of our youth goes through a stage of rebelling against the "norm" set by society.

With today's youth, I believe that the "preferred" method of rebelling is by adopting a more bi-sexual approach to sexual encounters (this trend seems to be more prevalent... or, at least, more visible... in teenage females than males). I believe that the majority of these teens are not truly gay or lesbian; it is only for the sake of experimentation or to be viewed as being "wild" by their peers. Unfortunately, I think that this trend will ultimately serve to re-enforce in the minds of those who oppose same-sex relationships that being gay/lesbain/bi is "all about sex". The end result, though, is that kids these days have a much better chance at discovering and developing postive attitudes towards homosexuals that will (hopefully) serve to offset any negative connotations they may have been taught by their parents or in church.

Just an opinion.

Jen

[Dr Adequate]

Great? Really?! Next thing you know, they'll let flying people with X-ray vision use OUR LUNCH COUNTERS!!! The correct technical term is "prandiometers".

[Zbu]

With today's youth, I believe that the "preferred" method of rebelling is by adopting a more bi-sexual approach to sexual encounters (this trend seems to be more prevalent... or, at least, more visible... in teenage females than males). I believe that the majority of these teens are not truly gay or lesbian; it is only for the sake of experimentation or to be viewed as being "wild" by their peers. Unfortunately, I think that this trend will ultimately serve to re-enforce in the minds of those who oppose same-sex relationships that being gay/lesbain/bi is "all about sex". The end result, though, is that kids these days have a much better chance at discovering and developing postive attitudes towards homosexuals that will (hopefully) serve to offset any negative connotations they may have been taught by their parents or in church.

Just an opinion.

Jen

And in a way I believe this attitude is what is really driving the supposed enlightenment in comic books; the childish need to equate homosexuality to just sex and not intimacy which is not really seen in comic books that plays like they're dealing with the issue when they're just using it for shock value while reinforcing the childish aspect of it. Not that I would be against a realistic depiction, but pretty much the whole sexual angle of any orientation is pretty much romanticized and dumbed down.

[stamenflicker]

So, been reading Green Arrow I see.

Ossai

Yeah, my childhood hero. I was trying to avoid titles and authors because it's not worth singling anyone or anything out. I collect about 15 titles per month, including Judd Winick's other titles. It's a pretty childish gripe on my part in the scheme of things.

I've always been a political conservative and Ollie has always been anti-establishment, got to wonder why I ever got hooked, but I love him as a character. He's a DCU underdog maybe that's why I like him, but when Ollie starts asking questions about HIV just so the author can add in a few "educational" panels, I don't know... I sort of hung my head in frustration.

It's really not fair, since I throughly enjoyed the whole "Speedy" ((his ward)) drug addiction story line. I guess maybe that's political discourse too. Something about it seemed different then. Maybe the tensions around homosexuality in the real world lend to an automatic "red-flag" now that I'm reading about it in fantasy.

Given the history of GA, I guess there probably is no better place to push the envelope though. I'll just keep shrugging it off.

Flick

[Skeptic]

....and even some men in their 30's and 40's, too (with or without acne). :D

I can't tell you how many times I... or another female... while strolling through a comic book store, received covert (sometimes open) stares from some of the guys present. Even when I'm wearing my pink "Help control the ***-hole population: have a man neutered today" t-shirt, they still want to hit on me...:whistling

Btw... nice to meet you, Skeptic :)

On the same topic, MAD magazine once had a article about words that mean different things to women (W) and men (M). One entry was:

LESBIAN, n. W: A woman that has sex with another woman. M: A woman that has sex with another woman so that men can watch.

[Orangutango]

On the same topic, MAD magazine once had a article about words that mean different things to women (W) and men (M). One entry was:

LESBIAN, n. W: A woman that has sex with another woman. M: A woman that has sex with another woman so that men can watch.

It's funny 'cause it's true.:D

[Orangutango]

And in a way I believe this attitude is what is really driving the supposed enlightenment in comic books; the childish need to equate homosexuality to just sex and not intimacy which is not really seen in comic books that plays like they're dealing with the issue when they're just using it for shock value while reinforcing the childish aspect of it. Not that I would be against a realistic depiction, but pretty much the whole sexual angle of any orientation is pretty much romanticized and dumbed down.

The one comic that stands out in my mind right now is "The Authority" (Wildstorm comics?). Two of the characters... The Midnighter and Apollo... are an openly gay couple who are even the foster parents of a child (Jenny Quantum).

http://www.michaelgiltz.com/articles/Authority_comic_book_gay_heroes_feature.htm

The writers treat them in probably the most realistic way that I have seen yet in comics today... they don't beat the readers over the head in every panel that they appear in regards to their homosexuality, but they have also shown Apollo and Midnighter being tender (kissing, cuddling in bed) to one another without it coming across as being thrown in for shock value.

[Tricky]

The one comic that stands out in my mind right now is "The Authority" (Wildstorm comics?). Two of the characters... The Midnighter and Apollo... are an openly gay couple who are even the foster parents of a child (Jenny Quantum).
Yeah, but only because Child Protective Services didn't know what else to do with a kid who had superpowers. ;)

[Skeptic]

the childish need to equate homosexuality to just sex and not intimacy which is not really seen in comic books that plays like they're dealing with the issue when they're just using it for shock value while reinforcing the childish aspect of it.

As opposed, er, to the mature, deep, and sensitive way comic books depict heterosexual romance?

I dunno, Zbu...

[Ossai]

Skeptic
As opposed, er, to the mature, deep, and sensitive way comic books depict heterosexual romance?

I dunno, Zbu... You’re stuck thinking about American comics, broaden your horizons and pick up some from Europe.

I won’t mention the Japanese ones, they seem to be either aimed at kids or teenagers or completely adult (i.e. hardcore porn).

Ossai

[Ryokan]

I won’t mention the Japanese ones, they seem to be either aimed at kids or teenagers or completely adult (i.e. hardcore porn).

Then you know very little about Japanese comics.

[Moochie]

I've seen a rumor that The Phantom wears diapers.

Wouldn't surprise me, really, considering how old he is.

M.

[Ossai]

Ryokan
Then you know very little about Japanese comics.
I would argue but the only one I’m familiar with are the ones that have been reprinted in English. While there is an occasional nugget, for the most part the rest are dross at least going by volume. For every Akira, or Grave of the Firefly there are literally hundreds of mediocre titles. Now the ones that are good are very good but I’ve almost given up on trying to find them.

Ossai

[phildonnia]

Stamenflicker,

It sounds like in word and deed you try to treat everyone with respect. So I wouldn't stress too much about what people might think of your inner thoughts.

You should never have to excuse, defend, or apologize for the way you feel about something. If it bothers you, you can change it I suppose, but that's your own business.