Islam UK?

[Reginald]

Being by my own conviction a very racially tollerant person to those who live within the UK, (I admit I find certain other european countries a little hard to take). I have been concerned today by things I have seen on UK TV.

First we have a dear chap called Sheikh Abu Hamza, who claimed "the crew [of Columbia] had been punished with death by Allah because there was an Israeli - Ilan Ramon, an Indian- born Hindu - Kalpana Chawla, and Americans on board."

Now this guy is just a fruit (They occur in all religions, just see the R&P forum), and the Muslim community (in general) have tried their hardest to distance themselves from this guys rantings. All credit to them.

However, even more disturbing were representations made on the BBC program "Newsnight" where several People of that faith were asked their oppinion of a potential war with Iraq. All spoke out against (They are entitled to this opinion, no problem there) However one young lady pointed out that if we do have a war, then we will turn moderate Muslims (resident in UK), into potential terrorists.

More irritating (at this point) was the follow on comment in which she felt that Moslims were being treated less than respectfully.

Is it just the UK that tollerates this?

I find myself in a possition where every time I give the benefit of the doubt, ten more of these things pop up to shake my resolve to stay liberal on such things.

I hope some posters from other countries could shed so light.

I am sure that such counter-opinions are received as well in Iraq!!

[Jon_in_london]

and the Muslim community (in general) have tried their hardest to distance themselves from this guys rantings. All credit to them.

I disagree here. I dont think the muslim community in this country rails and rage against people like abu hamza. Seems they just moan about how Islam only ever gets negative coverage on the tv.

It seems they protest and make a hell of a racket when, for ex. the US takes out the taliban but they say virtually nothing about how nasty the taliban was. Its terrible when the west takes action against muslims (even if they are nasty brutal *****) but its fine for the self same muslims to kill other muslims.

All things considered, theres remarkably little islamophobia in the UK.

This is why I regard muslims with a certain amount of suspicion, and it growing everyday. Yes, perhaps this does verge on bigotry but....... there it is.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


I disagree here. I dont think the muslim community in this country rails and rage against people like abu hamza. Seems they just moan about how Islam only ever gets negative coverage on the tv.

But how much of that is really Muslim opinion, and how much of that is what gets reported?

If someone chimes in and says "What a good thing we got rid of that Hamza bloke", it's not half as newsworthy as getting a quote from some rabid nutter who says that it is a sign of Islamaphobia, and that all Muslims will rise up and smash the Western Oppressor at their earliest convenience.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Reginald
However one young lady pointed out that if we do have a war, then we will turn moderate Muslims (resident in UK), into potential terrorists.


I'd have to disagree with that young lady; there's a whole number of steps required to radicalise moderates in that way, and this opinion is more to do with the stereotype that all muslims are potential islamofascist terrorists. Are all christians potential fundamentalists? Are all Tory supporters potential fascists? Okay--bad example with that one... :)

But as richardm so wisely points out, it's all about newsworthiness and the (slightest) possibility of "homegrown" islamic terrorism is more sensational than muslims who condemn the war and... that's it, really.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by richardm
If someone chimes in and says "What a good thing we got rid of that Hamza bloke", it's not half as newsworthy as getting a quote from some rabid nutter who says that it is a sign of Islamaphobia, and that all Muslims will rise up and smash the Western Oppressor at their earliest convenience.

You do sometimes see people from some muslim org. or other appearing on a newshow- basically saying that peeps like abu hamza dont represent the majority of muslims in this country etc.. and that the press just gives a one-sided view of UK Islam.

My gripe is that while the streets are plastered with anti-war (on Iraq/ on Terror) Free Palestine etc etc there isnt any real rage from the muslim community against people like hamza et al. and quite often some veiled support.

If the muslim community was seriously anti-hamza et al. and seriously viewed his/their activity as not only promoting serious levels of Islamophobia but also as seriously morally reprehensible then whence the seriously big angry noisy newsworthy protests against him/them?

so..............

[Reginald]

The people in question (for the most part) are British, they have no alternative home, in fact many of them escaped various oppresive regimes to come to this country. (Which makes me wonder why they hold their views in a lot of cases)

I feel I have to question the way the BBC chooses ithe subjects for these items. For example I hope they will be doing the same with a group of islamic refugees who fled Iraq.

The thing is I DONT want to be a bigot.

It just seems that with all these comments they are their own worst enemy.

[Flo]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


You do sometimes see people from some muslim org. or other appearing on a newshow- basically saying that peeps like abu hamza dont represent the majority of muslims in this country etc.. and that the press just gives a one-sided view of UK Islam.

My gripe is that while the streets are plastered with anti-war (on Iraq/ on Terror) Free Palestine etc etc there isnt any real rage from the muslim community against people like hamza et al. and quite often some veiled support.

If the muslim community was seriously anti-hamza et al. and seriously viewed his/their activity as not only promoting serious levels of Islamophobia but also as seriously morally reprehensible then whence the seriously big angry noisy newsworthy protests against him/them?

so..............

Same unconfortable situation as an African saying out loud Mugabe (and quite a few others) is a loon and a racist. Most Africans agree on that between themselves, but fear (wrongly IMO) to fuel racists views of Africa if they admit it in public, or to be ostracised for having potentially done so.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Flo
Same unconfortable situation as an African saying out loud Mugabe (and quite a few others) is a loon and a racist. Most Africans agree on that between themselves, but fear (wrongly IMO) to fuel racists views of Africa if they admit it in public, or to be ostracised for having potentially done so.

Thats an interesting viewpoint Flo- but if thats the case its certainly tres disengenuous (as you pointed out).

[Skeptic]

The people in question (for the most part) are British, they have no alternative home, in fact many of them escaped various oppresive regimes to come to this country. (Which makes me wonder why they hold their views in a lot of cases)

For some people, especially religious fanatics, being "opressed" is--by definition--not only when THEY are deprived of THEIR rights to freeom of speech and religion, etc., but when they are not allowed to deprive OTHERS of the right to disagree with them. Many a fanatical jew/Muslim/Christian wail and whine how they are "opressed" by women walking in the street in "unchaste" clothes, or with someone on TV daring to criticize their religion. It used to be that way with the communists, where every nation in which Communism doesn't rule is, ipso facto, an "imperialist enemy of the people" regardless of whether or not the people agree.

Islam, undfortunately, is in practice a far greater threat than fanatical Christianity or Judaism. The reason is that Christianity is a proselyting religion, wishing to convery everybody to Christianity (at least in principle), but isn't a total religion: it doesn't actually control one's daily lives too much in terms of what to eat, wear, etc. Judaism is total but not proselyting. Islam is both: a total religion AND a proselyting one. It controls every aspect of one's life, AND wished to impose this control on everybody.

[Pak_43]

A couple of reasonable starts for the muslim point of view in Britain is...

Muslim council of Britain (http://www.mcb.org.uk/)

Muslim News (http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/)

I think it's a reasonable generalisation to say that most Muslims in the UK feel that we seem quite keen to throw our weight about in the international community when it comes to Iraq, we're less than forthcoming when it comes to the Palestine/Israel question

But if we do go to war in Iraq I really can't see the muslim population inthe UK suddenly generating a load of new fanatical terrorists (the odd one or two maybe...)

One of the biggest indicators of Muslim attitudes in the UK IMO was the meeting Abu Hamza organised on the anniversary of 9/11 to "celebrate the positive benefits arising from 9/11."
This proposed meeting at the Finsbury park mosque got national radio and television news coverage the day before it was scheduled and precisely 1000 people turned up....
Hardly a rallying cry for muslim opposition....

[Number Six]

For some people, especially religious fanatics, being "opressed" is--by definition--not only when THEY are deprived of THEIR rights to freeom of speech and religion, etc., but when they are not allowed to deprive OTHERS of the right to disagree with them. [/B]

This says is perfectly. I need to memorize this sentence.

[Reginald]

Only 1000 eh?

Given the extreme nature of the subject, I find 1000 alarming.

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by Reginald
I feel I have to question the way the BBC chooses ithe subjects for these items. For example I hope they will be doing the same with a group of islamic refugees who fled Iraq.

.

LOL. I seriously doubt it. The BBC have been slowly edging leftwards over the last year or so. Their default position on most issues seems to be strongly anti-American, pro.... well whoever wants to have a go at Yanks I suppose. This leaves those of us out here in the world who want a reliable news service in a bit of a quandry. CNN? A bit too US-centred, Sky News? Much too UK centred. SABC? Too nuts. Al Jazeera?

[Mike B.]

I think Reginald has a point...

Even skeptics fall over themselves excusing Islam the way they would not do with xianity or any other religion. My guess because many are from the "third world" the thought is it would be racist to dare be critical of them...

Look at how rightfully critical many skeptics are of Jerry Falwell, but become as silent as clams about some of these Muslim Fundamentalists who actually tell their followers to go out and kill.

Bush and Blair are running around saying, "Islam is inherently peaceful." (Yeah right)

We had a sniper in America a while back. His name was John Muhammmad. The local news stopped calling him his name because according to a local Muslim cleric, this was "a slur against Islam." :confused:
So they went back to calling him his orignal name, which I suppose is a slur against Xianity.;)

[Flo]

Originally posted by Skeptic

For some people, especially religious fanatics, being "opressed" is--by definition--not only when THEY are deprived of THEIR rights to freeom of speech and religion, etc., but when they are not allowed to deprive OTHERS of the right to disagree with them.


Originally posted by Number Six


This says is perfectly. I need to memorize this sentence.


"You don't like the Goths?"
"No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!"
"Persecution?"
"Religious persecution. We won't stand for it forever."
"I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased."
"That's just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going about their business unmolested, as if they owned the country. If that isn't persecution, I'd like to know what is!"
(L. Sprague de Camp, Lest Darkness Fall)

[Jon_in_london]

Maybe they were scared a fatwa would be issued against them?

Ever heard of a xian clergy issuing fatwas? A death certificate signed by the pope?

A religion is nothing more or less than how it is interpreted by those who subscribe to it. It seems to be the 'extreme islam' meme is becoming more dominant though........

[Flo]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Maybe they were scared a fatwa would be issued against them?

Ever heard of a xian clergy issuing fatwas? A death certificate signed by the pope?

A religion is nothing more or less than how it is interpreted by those who subscribe to it. It seems to be the 'extreme islam' meme is becoming more dominant though........

That's what I was implying when speaking of a similar attitude among Africans (although there are no fatwas (yet) in most parts of Africa) : expressing dissenting views when you run the risk of being ostracised, or worse, asks for more courage than the average human being is gifted with ...:(