Graham: "God Alllowed Katrina" [Archive]

slingblade

12th March 2006, 08:16 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11780382/site/newsweek/site/newsweek/

What do you tell people who ask how a loving God could let something like this happen?
Well, I spoke yesterday to the clergy and I asked myself why, and I told them don’t know why. There is no way I can know. I think of Job, who suffered the loss of everything—seven sons and three daughters, all of his cattle, all of his sheep and his flocks, everything gone. He couldn’t help but ask why, but he didn’t find the answer immediately, and he really never had the answer at the end.

God came back and restored to him all these things, but the cause of the thing in his life was not God, it was the Devil. I didn’t mention that yesterday, because I don’t think this is the
place to talk about Satan and the Devil, because I don’t know. The Devil might have had nothing to do with this; I don’t know. But God has allowed it, and there is a purpose that we won’t know maybe for years to come.

Hey, at least he didn't say NO had brought the storm on itself; at least he didn't say God was trying to kill innocent children. If one has to blame an imaginary being for the weather, this is one of the better ways to phrase it, I suppose.

Roboramma

12th March 2006, 08:22 AM

I guess so.

You know, it's funny he brings up Job. I never really got that whole thing. That was one of the things that really turned me off of the whole judeo-christian god. The devil starts taunting him so he makes him a bet that involves tormenting his most loyal follower?
And then he gets pissed off when Job gets upset about this?

wtf?

Kopji

12th March 2006, 12:29 PM

The (probably a parable) Book of Job is clever in the sense it is a large and complicated story - but ultimately represents an incomplete set of answers for Job. Job and the reader are never allowed to peer "outside" the box of belief in God.

Of the various viewpoints paraded before Job it is never suggested that Job is suffering because people just suffer, and there is no diety in charge. 'Hey Job - consider for a moment that there is no god' Wouldn't that be a refreshing pov to see expressed by Job's foils in the story? But no. Job's range of choices is something like: curse God and die or repent and meet your just fate or you did something really bad and God is punishing you.

In the face of Job's protests of innocence, the book represents a fallacy of distraction. There is one more conclusion Job could arrive at, but we are not allowed to hear that.

Likewise Rev Billy is faced with the same logic, and comes to a similar flawed conclusion: God exists and is in charge, so whatever happens is what God has allowed. To accuse God of negligence or wrongdoing is a form of blasphemy, so like Job, Billy concludes God must have a greater plan than we can understand.

Like Job, Billy is not allowed within the confines of belief to not believe in God. The answer Billy came up with is probably the best one unless you go outside the box of belief.

Beerina

13th March 2006, 03:50 PM

Graham: "God Alllowed Katrina"

Ironically, using their theology to arrive at contradictions is standard fare around here. Of course God allowed it. That's why religion is stupid -- Yahweh is transparently a murderous thug. End of story. :rolleyes:

T'ai Chi

13th March 2006, 07:45 PM

Often the problem of pain is brought up as an argument for not believing in god(s) (because how could god(s) allow that!?)

To quote C.S. Lewis:

"If the universe is so bad... how on earth did human beings come to attribute it to the activities of a wise and good Creator?"

Roboramma

13th March 2006, 08:06 PM

To quote C.S. Lewis:

"If the universe is so bad... how on earth did human beings come to attribute it to the activities of a wise and good Creator?"

Because they want to believe that everything happens for a reason, all their pain and suffering is for some higher purpose, and will later be rewarded, etc.

I should also point out that not all human beings do attribute the universe to a wise and good creator. So a similar question, "If the universe is so good, how on earth did human beings come to attribute it to the activities of an apathetic/selfish/"whatever attributes have been given to creator dieties" God?"

Zep

14th March 2006, 01:22 AM

In short, Godiddit.

Freethinker

14th March 2006, 07:51 AM

I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster caused Katrina because blackened food is an abomination before his noodly goodness.

headscratcher4

14th March 2006, 08:18 AM

God allowed Bush/Cheney. Abu Grab and, oh, yeah, Osama Bin Ladin.

Go God.

Jekyll

14th March 2006, 08:29 AM

I miss-read this as God allows kittens.

Rufo

14th March 2006, 08:42 AM

In what way is a God killing off humans any worse than a author killing off the characters in his book?

slingblade

14th March 2006, 09:53 AM

I miss-read this as God allows kittens.

Not if you're stealing bandwidth.

ETA: Hello, Rufo. I didn't realize Iacchus had a sibling.

14th March 2006, 11:12 AM

In what way is a God killing off humans any worse than a author killing off the characters in his book?

Books are cheaper than lives, on the whole.

ImaginalDisc

14th March 2006, 12:25 PM

In what way is a God killing off humans any worse than a author killing off the characters in his book?

There's an inverse relationship here. Authors are real, characters are fictional. People are real, god is fictional.

rharbers

14th March 2006, 12:37 PM

I'm fairly sure that even if no one lived in that area the hurricane would have happened anyway. It just may be due to forces of nature that have been going on for millions of years.

SirPhilip

15th March 2006, 08:18 PM

Because they want to believe that everything happens for a reason, all their pain and suffering is for some higher purpose, and will later be rewarded, etc.Pain and suffering forces people to become more intelligent, which is a higher purpose. Intelligence though, is merely a form of power, and a mechanism must exist to keep a balance. If there is no other side of that coin, the logical end result is people like Mengele.

Jeff Wagg

15th March 2006, 08:29 PM

Why?

BJQ87

15th March 2006, 08:31 PM

Of course God allowed it. That's why religion is stupid -- Yahweh is transparently a murderous thug.

does not the creator of a life have the authority to take that life away?

Jeff Wagg

15th March 2006, 08:33 PM

does not the creator of a life have the authority to take that life away?

Who granted that authority? And does having that authority change the fact that s/he would still be vicious?

ImaginalDisc

15th March 2006, 08:37 PM

does not the creator of a life have the authority to take that life away?

So, my father has the right to have me evicerated by she-bears, or to turn my sister into a pillar of salt?

BJQ87

15th March 2006, 08:41 PM

So, my father has the right to have me evicerated by she-bears, or to turn my sister into a pillar of salt?

Your earthly father did not create you, nor does he have natural ultimate authority over you.

ImaginalDisc

15th March 2006, 08:47 PM

Your earthly father did not create you, nor does he have natural ultimate authority over you.

Ok, fine. I accept your assertion.

Does the milkman have the authority to evicerate me?

slingblade

15th March 2006, 09:46 PM

Your earthly father did not create you, nor does he have natural ultimate authority over you.

What is this "natural" ultimate authority? Are you claiming a natural right? Are rights inherent, and if so, which ones; or are rights imposed or assumed, in which case there are no natural rights?

Do you have a natural right to life, for example? And how do you plead this right in the face of a tornado or a terminal illness?

I'm afraid you'll have to prove your claim that "natural ultimate authority" exits.

BJQ87

16th March 2006, 01:23 PM

Do you have a natural right to life, for example? And how do you plead this right in the face of a tornado or a terminal illness?

Do I have a natural right to life? Only if God, the creator of all things, allows it of course. How do I plead this in the face of a tornado or a terminal illness? Prayer.

ImaginalDisc

16th March 2006, 01:26 PM

Do I have a natural right to life? Only if God, the creator of all things, allows it of course. How do I plead this in the face of a tornado or a terminal illness? Prayer.

BUZZ! Wrong answer. You go climb in the cellar, or you go to the doctor. Doing nothing by praying to an imaginary sky cheif is going to do nothing at all to help you.

Pauliesonne

16th March 2006, 01:29 PM

What's the difference between the bible and The Divinci dode?

The bible IS plagarising the myths that came before it.
and
The DiVinci code, well, I'm not too sure......

JamesDillon

16th March 2006, 01:33 PM

As is frequently the case, Monty Python said it best:

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spikey urchin,
Who made the sharks, He did.
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
AMEN.

BJQ87

16th March 2006, 01:36 PM

BUZZ! Wrong answer. You go climb in the cellar, or you go to the doctor. Doing nothing by praying to an imaginary sky cheif is going to do nothing at all to help you.

I didn't know prayer required me to not go see a doctor or run away from a tornado. That's like me shooting myself in the head right now with a gun and praying that God would stop the bullet from going into my head.

ImaginalDisc

16th March 2006, 01:38 PM

I didn't know prayer required me to not go see a doctor or run away from a tornado. That's like me shooting myself in the head right now with a gun and praying that God would stop the bullet from going into my head.

I'm not responsible for your omission, nor your back peddaling.

BJQ87

16th March 2006, 01:44 PM

I'm not responsible for your omission, nor your back peddaling.

what?

ImaginalDisc

16th March 2006, 01:46 PM

You were saying that your imaginary man who lives in the sky has the ultimate authority over you. Being infinitely powerful, it is he who causes floods, hurricanes, tornados and cancer. In order to be internally consistent with this model of the universe, you must never do anything at all to thwart his will, whatever lethal form it takes.

JamesDillon

16th March 2006, 01:55 PM

I didn't know prayer required me to not go see a doctor or run away from a tornado. That's like me shooting myself in the head right now with a gun and praying that God would stop the bullet from going into my head.

Why shouldn't you try that? Faith can move mountains, supposedly-- surely it could stop a bullet?

(Note: I'm making a rhetorical point here-- please do not try that!)

16th March 2006, 02:10 PM

Do I have a natural right to life? Only if God, the creator of all things, allows it of course. How do I plead this in the face of a tornado or a terminal illness? Prayer.

Please supply some proof that God created all things.

Do you pray when your illness is not terminal? If you go to the doctor, it might be more effective. Of course you religious types are all about suffering, so maybe this isn't an option for you.

No, that's not true. After you realize you're talking to yourself and still feel like crap, you'll call the doctor. Or is that providence? Does god answer your prayers by guiding you to the phone and phonebook? Have you considered cutting out the middle man?

Alliebubs

16th March 2006, 02:11 PM

What's the difference between the bible and The Divinci dode?

The bible IS plagarising the myths that came before it.
and
The DiVinci code, well, I'm not too sure......

One is full of terrible writing, not-believable characters, ridiculous situations, and an ending you could telegraph from a mile away.

The other is the bible.

(I've graduated from U of Toronto with an Art History specialist; believe me when I say the parts when Brown writes about art are the only things that are somewhat believable. Bah. Dan Brown. *spits on the ground*)

ImaginalDisc

16th March 2006, 02:12 PM

One is full of terrible writing, not-believable characters, ridiculous situations, and an ending you could telegraph from a mile away.

The other is the bible.

The *other* one is the bible? At least the Leonardo Code is mildly entertaining.

Skeptical Greg

16th March 2006, 02:16 PM

Do I have a natural right to life? Only if God, the creator of all things, allows it of course. How do I plead this in the face of a tornado or a terminal illness? Prayer.

Well, if prayer will help, it's not terminal, is it ?

Does God change his mind when you pray ?

According to Pat Robertson, you can get God to kill someone else instead of you.. That's cool ..

Alliebubs

16th March 2006, 02:24 PM

The *other* one is the bible? At least the Leonardo Code is mildly entertaining.

Yep. The *other* one is the bible. You mean to tell me cliched writing that's found in the DaStupid Code is more entertaining than reading the crap in the bible? I disagree.

(Just an aside, I meant to throw one of these (;)) at the end of "the other is the bible", to show that this post was more or less a joke... :))

ImaginalDisc

16th March 2006, 02:28 PM

Yep. The *other* one is the bible. You mean to tell me cliched writing that's found in the DaStupid Code is more entertaining than reading the crap in the bible? I disagree.

(Just an aside, I meant to throw one of these (;)) at the end of "the other is the bible", to show that this post was more or less a joke... :))

My humour circuts occasionally get fried when I realize some of the ridiculous things that get posted here are meant to be taken seriously.

Let's not deabte which fiction book of the two is worse. It's like debating about wether it's better to be eaten alive by bears, or whether it's better to suffocate in feces.

slingblade

16th March 2006, 10:49 PM

Do I have a natural right to life? Only if God, the creator of all things, allows it of course. How do I plead this in the face of a tornado or a terminal illness? Prayer.

You still haven't explained how this is "natural." That you believe such a claim exists, and that you have agreed to it, I can see. But how is it natural, or following from the nature of a thing?

But I understand your belief that your god has the right to take your life at any time. I'd consider myself a tool if I agreed to such a thing, so it's just as well I haven't.

BJQ87

17th March 2006, 12:36 AM

BJQ87

17th March 2006, 12:40 AM

You still haven't explained how this is "natural." That you believe such a claim exists, and that you have agreed to it, I can see. But how is it natural, or following from the nature of a thing?

But I understand your belief that your god has the right to take your life at any time. I'd consider myself a tool if I agreed to such a thing, so it's just as well I haven't.

God having natural ultimate authority is a premise, not a conclusion.

I consider myself a tool, living quite the abundant life as well.

BJQ87

17th March 2006, 12:46 AM

God having natural ultimate authority is a premise, not a conclusion.

excuse me, should have worded that differently...the way I had used it was as a premise, and not a conclusion. I didn't mean that it was never to be a conclusion.

slingblade

17th March 2006, 02:25 AM

excuse me, should have worded that differently...the way I had used it was as a premise, and not a conclusion. I didn't mean that it was never to be a conclusion.

S'okay. Either way, they both belong to you. As you have not yet proven a god to me, I cannot accept either. But I can accept that you do.

I've been a tool, many times. I don't care for it, and it never benefitted me in any way. IOW, when you're a tool, you get used. I prefer to be the wielder, and prefer inanimate tools.