An incredible woman lays the smack-down on a TV debate (video)

[DavoMan]

This is a TV panel debate between a muslim leader and this psycholoist woman. I am finding it hard to describe just how brilliant she put the situation in the middle east with muslims Vs everybody else.


This is the most brilliant display of intelegence, passion, rationality and everything else I admire in a person.

You guys have just got to check out this clip and help me figure out who she is. She absolutely hits the nail on the head.

A brilliant one liner from what she said to this religius leader: 'Muslims must ask themselves what they do for humanity to deserve their respect before humanity respects them.'

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

I am very much looking forward to reading what you guys think of this.

[hgc]

Wow. Talk about telling it like it is. Who is she? Where can you find her views in print?

[stamenflicker]

This is a TV panel debate between a muslim leader and this psycholoist woman. I am finding it hard to describe just how brilliant she put the situation in the middle east with muslims Vs everybody else.


This is the most brilliant display of intelegence, passion, rationality and everything else I admire in a person.

You guys have just got to check out this clip and help me figure out who she is. She absolutely hits the nail on the head.

A brilliant one liner from what she said to this religius leader: 'Muslims must ask themselves what they do for humanity to deserve their respect before humanity respects them.'

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

I am very much looking forward to reading what you guys think of this.

She nailed it.

Flick

[CFLarsen]

"You can believe in stones, as long as you don't throw them at me."

Where did she get that from? That is *********** brilliant!

[CFLarsen]

How do I save the clip? I need this for future reference.

[CFLarsen]

Transcript here. (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1050)

Wafa Sultan: I am not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. I am a secular human being. I do not believe in the supernatural, but I respect others' right to believe in it.

Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: Are you a heretic?

Wafa Sultan: You can say whatever you like. I am a secular human being who does not believe in the supernatural...

Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: If you are a heretic, there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran...

Wafa Sultan: These are personal matters that do not concern you.

Damn! She's good!

[Manny]

Wow. Talk about telling it like it is. Who is she? Where can you find her views in print?Wafa Sultan; she's come to prominence just recently.

She's fun to listen to and she makes some good points. But pointing to her as a moderate Muslim, which some people (not the OP) are doing, isn't correct. She is an atheist -- an apostate. She's likely to have as much influence among mainstream Muslims as an ex-Baptist is among Baptists or an ex-Jew among Jews. Unless there's a large and hidden secular (not secular Muslim, secular secular) population in countries we currently understand as Muslim I think she's kind of whistling into the wind. Credit where credit is due, though -- she's saying things directly in front of the people who need to hear them and possibly at no small risk to herself. I just question whether the message will get through.

[HarryKeogh]

wow!

She was awesome. It's very telling when the Muslim says I don't have to rebuke you because you blasphemed.

She found her target and she hit a bullseye. That was brilliant and thanks Davoman for posting it.

[CFLarsen]

But pointing to her as a moderate Muslim, which some people (not the OP) are doing, isn't correct.

Who does that?

She makes it blatantly clear that she is not a Muslim, moderate or not.

[CFLarsen]

It's very telling when the Muslim says I don't have to rebuke you because you blasphemed.

In which case, I....kinda....wonder why there is all this hubbub about the Danish cartoons...

She found her target and she hit a bullseye. That was brilliant and thanks Davoman for posting it.

Absolutely. Post of the month!

[Skeptic]

While she would probably disagree with me, I think that she is a much better candidate to the title "radical Muslim" than Al-Queda. "Kill all the infidels" is hardly radical in the Muslim world. "I'm a secular woman who thinks Islam is backward" sure is.

[HarryKeogh]

While she would probably disagree with me, I think that she is a much better candidate to the title "radical Muslim" than Al-Queda. "Kill all the infidels" is hardly radical in the Muslim world. "I'm a secular woman who thinks Islam is backward" sure is.

Maybe a radical (to some people) but how could anyone (including those who we think of as "radical Muslims") claim she is a radical Muslim (as she is not Muslim and readily admits this).

[hgc]

Wafa Sultan; she's come to prominence just recently.

She's fun to listen to and she makes some good points. But pointing to her as a moderate Muslim, which some people (not the OP) are doing, isn't correct. She is an atheist -- an apostate. She's likely to have as much influence among mainstream Muslims as an ex-Baptist is among Baptists or an ex-Jew among Jews. Unless there's a large and hidden secular (not secular Muslim, secular secular) population in countries we currently understand as Muslim I think she's kind of whistling into the wind. Credit where credit is due, though -- she's saying things directly in front of the people who need to hear them and possibly at no small risk to herself. I just question whether the message will get through.I don't know her history, but if she's born Muslim, and is now apostate, there is a chance that her views can connect with a portion of the Muslim world that are either a) true believers who are moderate and appreciative of the concept that others' beliefs are not their concern or b) secular-at-heart Muslims living an outward lie due to the oppression of apostates in their societies.

But she really throws the gauntlet with this...The Muslims are the ones who began using this expression. The Muslims are the ones who began the clash of civilizations. The Prophet of Islam said: "I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and His Messenger." When the Muslims divided the people into Muslims and non-Muslims, and called to fight the others until they believe in what they themselves believe, they started this clash, and began this war. In order to start this war, they must reexamine their Islamic books and curricula, which are full of calls for takfir and fighting the infidels.She's saying that the problem goes right back to the words of the prophet. This kind of attack on the foundational beliefs goes over harder than general attacks on current attitudes.

[HarryKeogh]

so how long before some cleric issues a fatwah?

[Ryokan]

I'm in love! :D

[Melendwyr]

While she would probably disagree with me, I think that she is a much better candidate to the title "radical Muslim" than Al-Queda. Except, of course, that she's not a Muslim.

That would seem to rule out the title, don't you think?

[Serenity]

What a dazzling dialogue. She was amazing! So if she's a secular psychologist in LA, she might make a great TAM candidate. Worth looking into. Here's another link from someone who blogged her:

BTW, I read she's a Syrian expatriate.

http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007434.php


http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010465.php

*edited for typo*

[GreyPilgrim]

I'm currently peeling myself off the wall....feel a little bit like Michael J Fox in the first Back to the Future when he fires up that amp. Wow.

[CapelDodger]

Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don't throw them at me.
I am so going to steal that.

She's right that there's a clash going on between the primitive and the civilised, even within the Islamic world. Islam was invented to bring some sort of order to a primitive society in Arabia, and fundamentalism is spouting that version of Islam. It's something that should be exploited; Muslims must become embarrassed to be associated with fundamentalism. Most of the Islamic world isn't Arab, and much of it has a history of civilisation long pre-dating Islam. That needs to be recognised, and a wedge driven between Arabs and the rest.

[DavoMan]

I thought I was going to spew if I didnt get this video out to some more people. Guys we need to save this video clip. I am having trouble using StreamDown because it crashes before the end.

If anyone can save this whole clip to their hard drive let me know. I want to re-encode it to a healthy file size so it can be streamed easily and distributed.

I hope people wont care & spew over digital rights and royalties etc - . And if people do complain about rights etc, screw them. This clip needs to be shown everywhere.

[Metullus]

Wow.



Wow.

[Q-Source]

This is a TV panel debate between a muslim leader and this psycholoist woman. I am finding it hard to describe just how brilliant she put the situation in the middle east with muslims Vs everybody else.

She just forgets that the situation in the Middle East started from the moment Jews invaded another country. We all know that it is not a clash of civilisations, it is a Muslim reaction to Jewish beliefs that they are the chosen people to occupy a piece of land that already belonged to somebody else.

As much as I dislike Muslims´beliefs, the West (so called "civilisation") has abused those people´s right to believe what the hell they want to believe and to rule their countries as they want.

You have to be very naive to believe that the West represents and all caring advanced civilisation that is fighting against a medieval civilisation. It is land possesion, oil, dominance and imposition what the West wants from the Muslim countries.

[Beleth]

It started waaaaaaay before that, Q-Source.

[Jorghnassen]

Why do medieval times always get equated with barbarism? Atrocities are not particular to feudal times, neither are ideologically driven conflicts... In fact, I do believe muslim societies were surprisingly enlightened back in the Middle Ages, possibly moreso than today in some ways (but I'm too lazy to check whether I'm correct or not at the moment). I still think most people should reconsider their preconceived notions about the era between the fall of the western Roman empire and the Italian renaissance.

/I blame Petrarch

[shecky]

I wonder if we could get her to slap down Falwell, too?

[pipelineaudio]

Who will kill her first?

The PC police thoughtcrime division, who claim to represent women's rights but say "islam is a religion of peace"?

The Iranians?

The "moderate muslims" who would feel so ashamed to allow a woman to speak to a man like that (or even hold an opinion of any sort)?

Al-Q?

[LostAngeles]

Ahh! I think I saw her on the front page of The Daily News out here the other day.

[LostAngeles]

Odd... the story seems to have been removed from The Daily News website. It shows up on Google...

I can't find it at all. It's entitled, "LA woman ignites Muslim debate"

[thaiboxerken]

Hehhe. I am reminded of Christians when the Muslim guy says that he doesn't have to refute her because she's a heretic. If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard "you don't believe, so you'll never understand".. I'd retire.

[Skeptic]

Maybe a radical (to some people) but how could anyone (including those who we think of as "radical Muslims") claim she is a radical Muslim (as she is not Muslim and readily admits this).

That's why I said she would disagree. I meant, I suppose, that what she is saying is incedibly radical for Muslim society, naturally not that she herself is a Muslim.

[Skeptic]

She just forgets that the situation in the Middle East started from the moment Jews invaded another country.

Why, of course: Saudi Arabia or Libya, for instance, were such a beacon of tolerance and humanism before zionism.

And all the Muslims lived in peace and harmony before zionism, too! If one ignores, er, tiny things like the Armenian holocaust, or the wars between the Arabs and the Turks, or the Arabs and the Persians, or the Sunni-Shiite wars, or the genocide of non-Muslims in Sudan, or the war beteen Egypt and Yemen, or Iran and Iraq, or Syria and Lebanon, or the establishment of sharia law in Nigeria, or the 9th-century theocracy in Afghanistan ... (etc., etc., etc.), none of which had the slightest connection with the jews and/or zionism.

Sorry, Charlie, but if you want to blame someone for the violent backwardness of the Arab and Muslim world, the obvious truth is that the jews had very little to do with it. The main cause of it is not zionism, or imperialism, or anything like that. It is the fact that the Muslim world, for the most part, is still mideaval in its thinking and ways, having not gone through either the enlightenment, renaissance, or the scientific and industrial revolutions.

The GNP of the entire Arab world--exclusing oil--is less than that of Spain. There are less books translated into Arabic than the number of books translated in sub-Saharan Africa. How is that the jews' fault, exactly?

[Kopji]

Wow, what a courageous person. She rocks.

[Piggy]

I gotta agree that she's a little easy on the non-Muslims. E.g., no Jew has ever killed anyone as part of a protest? That's pretty strong.

Btw, we got the same clash going on right here in River City. My state legislature just passed resolutions, full of inaccuracies and even outright lies (including 2 spurious quotations falsely attributed to former US presidents), "Supporting and commending the public display of the Ten Commandments".

They don't even acknowledge, and most legislators are probably ignorant of, the difficulty of even establishing what "the ten commandments" might be, yet the senate resolution directs the Secretary of State to "transmit appropriate copies of this resolution to each member of the Georgia Congressional delegation".

The house resolution falsely claims that "the Ten Commandments are the basis of the law of every government in the history of Western civilization".

It goes on to claim that although "the Constitution of the United States provides that 'Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of a religion,' it absolutely does not prohibit the recognition of Almighty God and His moral precepts expressed in the Ten Commandments in our institutions of government, our legislatures, our courts, our schools, or other public places." :confused: :eek:

The senate bill also urges passage at the federal level of "S. 520 and H.R. 1070 [which] are federal bills which, if enacted, will allow the display of the Ten Commandments in public places in America and provide as follows:
'Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is sought against an entity of Federal, State, or local government (whether or not acting in official or personal capacity), concerning that entity's, officer's, or agent's acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government.'"

That's right -- a bill that attempts to deny the US Supreme Court jurisdiction over any case involving government entities declaring God to be the "sovereign source of law, liberty, or government". :jaw-dropp

[bignickel]

The video player on that page gives me a very herky-jerky experiance trying to watch it. It won't cache, or anything.

Anyone have a link, so I can just download it onto my hard drive, in order that I might actually be able to watch and listen to it in some some coherent manner?

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

The senate bill also urges passage at the federal level of "S. 520 and H.R. 1070 [which] are federal bills which, if enacted, will allow the display of the Ten Commandments in public places in America and provide as follows:
'Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is sought against an entity of Federal, State, or local government (whether or not acting in official or personal capacity), concerning that entity's, officer's, or agent's acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government.'"

That's right -- a bill that attempts to deny the US Supreme Court jurisdiction over any case involving government entities declaring God to be the "sovereign source of law, liberty, or government".

The inclusion of that paragraph in the bill is based on a deliberate mis-understanding of the meaning of the following sentence from Article III, Section 2 of the US Constitution:

In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
(emphases mine)

What Monroe and the Founders clearly had in mind was the possibility that there would not be enough appeals cases to keep the Supreme Court busy. In that case, while exercising their power to create the lower courts, Congress could give direct jurisdiction of many cases to the Supreme Court --as though it were the District Court for Washington, DC as well as the Supreme Court. They did not intend to allow Congress to remove any of the appelate jurisdiction the Constitution grants to the Court. It would put too much power into one branch of the government, and upset the system of checks and balances.

Nowhere in the Constitution is there a provision (other than impeachment of individual justices or the president) for Congress to remove powers from either of the other two branches of government which were specifically granted by the Constitution.

[bignickel]

Anyone have a link to the whole debate, not just selected bits?

[FireGarden]

I can't get the clip to run. Is there a full transcript anywhere? -- I find it hard to believe that the other guy said practically nothing.

BTW, for those who hadn't noticed....
This is from a debate on al-jazeera, and is not out of character for that station.

[Serenity]

Anyone have a link to the whole debate, not just selected bits?Try this video link:

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2703896?htv=12

MP3 File:
Dr. Wafa Sultan joins Tovia in her First English Language Interview after she Slammed Islam on Al Jazeera
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=100009

[Skeptic]

I gotta agree that she's a little easy on the non-Muslims. E.g., no Jew has ever killed anyone as part of a protest? That's pretty strong.

I doubt it's meant absolutely literally, but as what is true of the absolute majority. As one jewish comedian put it, "when did somebody ever say, 'let's not go into this neighborhood, it's dangerous, there's lots of jews there'?"

Btw, we got the same clash going on right here in River City. My state legislature just passed resolutions, full of inaccuracies and even outright lies (including 2 spurious quotations falsely attributed to former US presidents), "Supporting and commending the public display of the Ten Commandments".

They don't even acknowledge, and most legislators are probably ignorant of, the difficulty of even establishing what "the ten commandments" might be,

Three versions I am aware of (Leviticus, Duetronomy, and the catholic one).

The house resolution falsely claims that "the Ten Commandments are the basis of the law of every government in the history of Western civilization".

As long as one ignores, er, Roman and Napolelonic and English common law... I'd also like to know where the "thou shall not have strange Gods before me" and "remember the shabbath day to keep it holy" part come in Roman law, for instance.

It goes on to claim that although "the Constitution of the United States provides that 'Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of a religion,' it absolutely does not prohibit the recognition of Almighty God and His moral precepts expressed in the Ten Commandments in our institutions of government, our legislatures, our courts, our schools, or other public places." :confused: :eek:

Well, er, they're right. It doesn't. What it forbids is Congress passing laws establishing religion. That's a far cry from a court displaying a copy of the ten commandments in the artwork, etc., of the building. Such displays are not the passing of any law. No lawyer can say, "as the statue in the front yard of this courtroom clearly shows..."

That's right -- a bill that attempts to deny the US Supreme Court jurisdiction over any case involving government entities declaring God to be the "sovereign source of law, liberty, or government". :jaw-dropp

Actually, again, while rarely used, Congress DOES have the right to limit the SC's power to review cases of a certain sort (though I think the SC has the right to declare such a law unconstitutional).

[Q-Source]

And all the Muslims lived in peace and harmony before zionism, too! If one ignores, er, tiny things like the Armenian holocaust, or the wars between the Arabs and the Turks, or the Arabs and the Persians, or the Sunni-Shiite wars, or the genocide of non-Muslims in Sudan, or the war beteen Egypt and Yemen, or Iran and Iraq, or Syria and Lebanon, or the establishment of sharia law in Nigeria, or the 9th-century theocracy in Afghanistan ... (etc., etc., etc.), none of which had the slightest connection with the jews and/or zionism.


Yes, you are right. We should add to your list two World Wars, the Spanish Inquisition, British Colonialism, Imperialism, etc, etc.... all of them a result of political, religious and geographical disputes. That is my point. To believe that the current situation Muslims vs world is a mere clash of civilisations is an extreme oversimplification.

As critical thinkers, we must praise people who hold neutral and rational arguments not biased opinions that are clearly representing only one side of the conflict.


Belem

[sophia8]

The Religious policeman (http://muttawa.blogspot.com/) liked it as well:I could watch this over and over. It's like porn for moderate Muslims.

[pipelineaudio]

For those with a MUCH deeper understanding of islam than the layperson, This lady gave a lot of our arguments as well, she spoke on two levels at the same time, most perfectly in each, much kudos to her. This is like one of those movies where it succeeds because kids can watch it and enjoy it, and parents can watch it and see a LOT deeper of a subject. I am so very impressed with her. I hope infidelguy does a radio show with her

[Thorn]

I'm in love! :D
Most definately seconded.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Here's a woman with enough guts for 100 people.

~~ Paul

[SuperCoolGuy]

Hehhe. I am reminded of Christians when the Muslim guy says that he doesn't have to refute her because she's a heretic. If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard "you don't believe, so you'll never understand".. I'd retire.

It maddens me to no end how the guy decides he can't rebuke her because she disbelieves in Islam. It is the most common and disingenuine ploy used by more "learned" Muslims to run from the statements made by moderate Muslims or non-Muslims.

[Thorn]

It maddens me to no end how the guy decides he can't rebuke her because she disbelieves in Islam. It is the most common and disingenuine ploy used by more "learned" Muslims to run from the statements made by moderate Muslims or non-Muslims.

Well, Yeah. But me as a science minded person usually will draw the line at true-believer. I cannot convince them their faith is wrong. But the refusal to talk to them in a debate is just silly.

[HarryKeogh]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?ex=1143003600&en=f61aaa1551878dd9&ei=5070&emc=eta1


For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats

LOS ANGELES, March 10 — Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.
Today, thanks to an unusually blunt and provocative interview on Al Jazeera television on Feb. 21, she is an international sensation, hailed as a fresh voice of reason by some, and by others as a heretic and infidel who deserves to die.


In the interview, which has been viewed on the Internet more than a million times and has reached the e-mail of hundreds of thousands around the world, Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries.

[hgc]

Couple of items from the NY Times article caught my attention...

Her views caught the ear of the American Jewish Congress, which has invited her to speak in May at a conference in Israel. "We have been discussing with her the importance of her message and trying to devise the right venue for her to address Jewish leaders," said Neil B. Goldstein, executive director of the organization.Stupid. She shouldn't allow herself to become a poster child in the Muslim world for collaborating with the Jewish enemy. Her message isn't important to be heard by Jews. It's important that she speak to Muslim organizations. I hope she respectfully declines.

Shortly after the broadcast, clerics in Syria denounced her as an infidel. One said she had done Islam more damage than the Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad, a wire service reported.Ha! I guess it depends on your definition of "damage." The Danish cartoons were a big boost to crowd manipulators of the Muslim world, who used them to orchestrate riots and hysteria months after the fact. This woman though, by being broadcast in al Jezeera, probably actually reached out to a few people and touched a chord. Clerical brainwashing has taken a step backwards.

[Ossai]

Skeptic
Three versions I am aware of (Leviticus, Duetronomy, and the catholic one). Don’t forget the original version in Exodus.

[Skeptic]

Yes, you are right. We should add to your list two World Wars, the Spanish Inquisition, British Colonialism, Imperialism, etc,

Sorry, but it's not colonialism or imperialism, either. The colonial and imperial periods lasted for less than 100 years--from roughly the time of the industrial revolution in the 1850s to after WWII. The decline of the Islamic world in relation to the west had started 200 years before and still continues, 50 years after.

There is also a difference that when WWI and WWII occured, nobody in Europe looked abroad and said that Europe's trouble are all the fault of nefarious Islamic or Chinese or Indian influences. You, on the other hand, instantly claimed that the trouble in the ME "started" because of the zionists.

That makes as much sense as the claim, made in the mideaval world, that all of Europe's trouble at the time were due to God's anger at the fact that the holy land is in the hand of the infidels, or perhaps that Spain is suffering under the Moors.

[SirPhilip]

Skeptic
Don’t forget the original version in Exodus. She's very articulate. It's refreshing and painful at the same time to see someone tell it like it is, and almost makes me glad I voted for Bush the second time around.

[Skeptic]

Stupid. She shouldn't allow herself to become a poster child in the Muslim world for collaborating with the Jewish enemy. Her message isn't important to be heard by Jews.

Pragmatically, you have a point, but being afraid to speak to jewish organizations out of fear of being labeled a "collaborator" is giving in to the Islamic world's antisemitic paranoia. If "moderate" Muslims organizations will refuse to hear her because she visited israel, that shows us quite a bit about how "moderate" they really are, doesn't it?

Besides, she said good thing about the jews in her broadcast, so she is automatically a collaborator anyway. To paraphrase Saturday Night Live, she's probably portrayed as a zionist Lesbian Robot on some Islamic web sites as we speak.

For Muslim who says violence destroys Islam, violent threats

Gee, what a surprise. But... but... Islam is the religion of peace!!!

[EGarrett]

Great video.

Unfortunately, I have to paraphrase another comment about getting new theories accepted...

You won't convert the adult Muslims. You have to teach the new people, and let the others grow old and die out.

[Wowbagger]

Holy macaroni! So many good quotes, so few .sigs to put 'em on!

[thaiboxerken]

She's very articulate. It's refreshing and painful at the same time to see someone tell it like it is, and almost makes me glad I voted for Bush the second time around.

Strange, I find her arguments are very much to the point and correct.. yet I am not glad that Bush is president at all.

[Puskara]

This video kinda turns me on.

Ryokan and Thorn can get in line behind me. I'm camped on her doorstep now with a box of chocolates and a bottle of baby oil.

They need to get her onto every channel and media outlet possible.


Puskara

[geni]

I doubt it's meant absolutely literally, but as what is true of the absolute majority. As one jewish comedian put it, "when did somebody ever say, 'let's not go into this neighborhood, it's dangerous, there's lots of jews there'?"

I doubt the romans said it per say but I do seem to recall they had a problem with the jews (they solved it of course but there problem was there for a bit).

[geni]

For those with a MUCH deeper understanding of islam than the layperson, This lady gave a lot of our arguments as well, she spoke on two levels at the same time, most perfectly in each, much kudos to her. This is like one of those movies where it succeeds because kids can watch it and enjoy it, and parents can watch it and see a LOT deeper of a subject. I am so very impressed with her. I hope infidelguy does a radio show with her

Slightly fewer factal errors would be nice.

[geni]

That needs to be recognised, and a wedge driven between Arabs and the rest.

The algerian civil war was bad enough the first time around.

[Skeptic]

To be fair, what really makes her arguments powerful is her opposition.

You can just see, from the expression on his face and the questions that he asks, that the imam who is arguing with her is physically suffering from the mere fact that an apostate woman--an infinitely inferior human being to believing males, by definition--would even dare to speak publicly against the holy prophet.

The look of disgust on his face is incredible. You can just see him thinking, "well, that's what you get once you abolish stoning!".

It is not that she is 100% accurate in everything she says, but that we got here a glimpse of the real battle: freethinking liberty, respresented by this woman, against dogmatic opression, seen in the imam's saying, expression, and behavior.

[geni]

It is not that she is 100% accurate in everything she says, but that we got here a glimpse of the real battle: freethinking liberty, respresented by this woman, against dogmatic opression, seen in the imam's saying, expression, and behavior.

Problem is that the kids are freethinking. They are not buying the secualist left wing borderline communist stuff any more. Islam is fashionable.

Mauritania, Algeria, Palistine. The old secular goverments are dying Mubarak isn't going to last forever perhaps Egypt will be next.

Look at the lady's message:

Secularism. That was 60s and 70s when Marx still had some legs left. Now the word on the street is allah. Considering the results secularism produced can you blame them?

Like or at least get along with the jews. Um yeah I don't think that one is going to sell anytime soon.

Respect other religions. Which ones? Chirstanity isn't looking too good due the whole crusade thing. Hindus still have the whole India/pakistan thing. Buddists? Not really on the radar. Dito shinto. The good news is that it appears the zorostians are being treated a bit better.

So if we can't sell secularism or getting along with other belife systems what can we sell?

Democracy? Probably but the Hammas result shows where that is likely to lead

Free market capitalism? Doesn't work two well when your entire economy is based around one export.

Extream islam does tend to self disstruct in the end. I suspect we may just have to wait it out.

[billydkid]

This is a TV panel debate between a muslim leader and this psycholoist woman. I am finding it hard to describe just how brilliant she put the situation in the middle east with muslims Vs everybody else.


This is the most brilliant display of intelegence, passion, rationality and everything else I admire in a person.

You guys have just got to check out this clip and help me figure out who she is. She absolutely hits the nail on the head.

A brilliant one liner from what she said to this religius leader: 'Muslims must ask themselves what they do for humanity to deserve their respect before humanity respects them.'

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

I am very much looking forward to reading what you guys think of this.

Wow, what a woman! Could you imagine if even a tiny fraction of our leaders had her courage, integrity and intelligence. Why don't we ever have the option of voting for a person of this quality in any of our elections?

[Skeptic]

Extream islam does tend to self disstruct in the end. I suspect we may just have to wait it out.

And in the meantime, do nothing.

And if a brave woman tells it like it is and shows how radical Islam is wrong, make snarky comments about how it doesn't matter since what she does won't help.

Gotcha.

[geni]

Wow, what a woman! Could you imagine if even a tiny fraction of our leaders had her courage, integrity and intelligence. Why don't we ever have the option of voting for a person of this quality in any of our elections?

Small issue that politicians have to have some level of diplomatic skill and if Bush had said what she had said we would be now have a lovey itemised list of all the errors.

[DreadNiK]

Small issue that politicians have to have some level of diplomatic skill and if Bush had said what she had said we would be now have a lovey itemised list of all the errors.

What exactly does this mean or imply?

[Blondin]

I came to post this and found I'd been beaten to the punch. That's okay. I felt like cheering while I watched it. Right on, Sister!

I wonder if Hal could persuade Dr. Sultan to write a commentary for Swift on the pitfalls of blind faith?

[geni]

And in the meantime, do nothing.

Well that's up to you. Personaly I hope to be increaseing the technology gap.


And if a brave woman tells it like it is and shows how radical Islam is wrong, make snarky comments about how it doesn't matter since what she does won't help.

Tells it how it is? I think Yitzhak Rabin would tend to dissagree on that one. Yitzhak Rabin is quite clearly jewish.

Islam as a relgion belong to the middle ages? Not really it won't fit too well into the european middle ages and would have issues with the arab world in that time period as well.

[geni]

What exactly does this mean or imply?

Any politician standing up and saying that would risk finding his country rather short of oil within a fairly short time frame. Unless it was the primeminister of India who would find himself a few cities down.

[Skeptic]

Any politician standing up and saying that would risk finding his country rather short of oil within a fairly short time frame. Unless it was the primeminister of India who would find himself a few cities down.

Yes, I keep forgetting that surrendering to blackmail by mideaval thugs is the, er, "responsible" way to go.

The truth is that the Arab / Mideastern control of oil is a bluff. If they sell no oil, they will hurt the west, but they will completely devastate their own economy as it is based solely on oil.

Similarly for the PM of India finding himself "short a few cities". Not unless the Pakistanis want to have Islamabad turn into a burning crater, he won't.

[gnome]

This was on Al-jazeera? I thought that was supposedly just a mouthpiece for muslim propaganda!

[Ryokan]

This was on Al-jazeera? I thought that was supposedly just a mouthpiece for muslim propaganda!

Someone wants you to believe that.

Just like someone wants the Arabs to believe CNN only delivers American propoganda.

[Soapy Sam]

A lot of good journalists at Al-Jazeera.

Ask Kitten. She takes their news feed in Arabic.

[CapelDodger]

The algerian civil war was bad enough the first time around.Not strictly Arabs but ... The problem there was that the government was not legitimate (by consent of the people) and the religious party provided the only means of opposition. (Much like Iran in the 70's.) Had the Islamic government that was elected been able to take power it would probably have imploded in short order. As it was, the Army moved in (probably with the encouragement of the French, Africa seems to be a fetish of theirs) and things got confrontational.

In a more general sense, there needs to be a legitimate alternative to Islamism before a wedge can be driven in. Islamism is a problem amongst the young, I think you'd agree. French girls wanting to wear the hijab "because it's part of their tradition" have mothers who've never worn it. Islam is cool, and must be made nerdy again.

If Muslim boys could direct their energy to chasing tail it would help a lot, IMO.

[gnome]

If Muslim boys could direct their energy to chasing tail it would help a lot, IMO.

This ties into it also though... that energy right now often goes into pursuing the idea that women are property, and that the use of force is perfectly legitimate if one resists your authority. Float that idea among some horny males... and have their own government and churches give them permission to hold that attitude... and see what you get. :(

[Nyarlathotep]

I liked seeing it and I hope her way of thinking becomes more prevalent in the Muslim world.

But I'm not holdingmy breath

[Ed]

Any politician standing up and saying that would risk finding his country rather short of oil within a fairly short time frame. Unless it was the primeminister of India who would find himself a few cities down.

And who do they sell it to? And how does it help them to jumpstart real research into alternatives? And where do they get thier toys from and the Remy for the House of Saud?

You give them a lot more cards than they have.

[DrMatt]

Wafa Sultan; she's come to prominence just recently.

She's fun to listen to and she makes some good points. But pointing to her as a moderate Muslim, which some people (not the OP) are doing, isn't correct. She is an atheist -- an apostate. She's likely to have as much influence among mainstream Muslims as an ex-Baptist is among Baptists or an ex-Jew among Jews. Unless there's a large and hidden secular (not secular Muslim, secular secular) population in countries we currently understand as Muslim I think she's kind of whistling into the wind. Credit where credit is due, though -- she's saying things directly in front of the people who need to hear them and possibly at no small risk to herself. I just question whether the message will get through.


You never know. Secularism among Jews has been widespread--though often underground--for a couple hundred years. See also Golda Meir, Theodore Hertzl, Albert Einstein, Hanna Arendt... And Jewish secularism is alive and kicking in places like Secular Humanist Temples (!?!).

Could Islam be redefined so that al-Qaaran is just the ethnic grouping's old, obsolete mythology? The word itself means "Pacification", and could be reinterpreted to mean subduing one's own passions to reason and observation, rather than subduing all dissent by force. We're talking about the people who preserved and expanded upon Greek science while Europe wallowed in the Dark Ages, who operated a somewhat polycultural and tolerant civilization for centuries, before collapsing into backwardness and being absorbed into the Turkish empire about the time Europe rediscovered science. Ya just never know.

Most of the folks of Middle-Eastern origin that I've met here in the US, almost all of them practicing Muslims, have been either directly active in science and engineering or very favorably oriented towards 'em, though some of them affect medieval attitudes and dress at home. Alas, the ability to self-educate is a weakness of the Middle East outside of Israel, so the male intelligentsia finds its way to Stanford, Oberlin, Swarthmore... I've found most of 'em open to the notion that we're all cousins.

Wafa Sultan's message goes beyond what's in the clip--she advocates a mass uprising and redefinition of the Middle-East by women. I have long opined that arming the women of the Middle-East would drastically change the picture, but I'm afraid it would only accelerate the destabilization that is already kicking in as oil supplies change. In years to come, we may see....

[geni]

Yes, I keep forgetting that surrendering to blackmail by mideaval thugs is the, er, "responsible" way to go.

The truth is that the Arab / Mideastern control of oil is a bluff. If they sell no oil, they will hurt the west, but they will completely devastate their own economy as it is based solely on oil.

They survived last time. Oh russia would be a bit more of a problem but a significant jump in oil costs (they don't even have to stop selling oil just reduce the flow a bit) would hurt a lot.




Similarly for the PM of India finding himself "short a few cities". Not unless the Pakistanis want to have Islamabad turn into a burning crater, he won't.

Oh Musharraf in sane enough not to do that but quite a number of the people trying to get rid of him are not quite as stable.

[geni]

Not strictly Arabs but

The GIA and FIS drew their support from the countries arab population.


... The problem there was that the government was not legitimate (by consent of the people) and the religious party provided the only means of opposition. (Much like Iran in the 70's.) Had the Islamic government that was elected been able to take power it would probably have imploded in short order. As it was, the Army moved in (probably with the encouragement of the French, Africa seems to be a fetish of theirs) and things got confrontational.


The goverment was supported by the Berbers. The islamic side was supported by the arabs. You see why I view driveing a wedge between the arabs and the rest as a bad idea.



In a more general sense, there needs to be a legitimate alternative to Islamism before a wedge can be driven in. Islamism is a problem amongst the young, I think you'd agree. French girls wanting to wear the hijab "because it's part of their tradition" have mothers who've never worn it. Islam is cool, and must be made nerdy again.

If Muslim boys could direct their energy to chasing tail it would help a lot, IMO.

Nah I'm sure they are quite caperble of doing that as well.

[geni]

And who do they sell it to?

China.


And how does it help them to jumpstart real research into alternatives? And where do they get thier toys from and the Remy for the House of Saud?

You give them a lot more cards than they have.

Oil is around $60 a barrel. That is about twice their target price. I think they could drop production by a few percentage points without any real problems.

[Hazen]

One for deserving the tag:

[Piggy]

FWIW, she just got some press on NPR tonight.

[RandFan]

Wow, thanks.

[EagleEye]

Wow, thanks.

RandFan, the person in your sig looks a lot like that lady that we're praising here... which leads me to ask, is that person in your sig that same lady? And is that YOU?

Otherwise, I'm confused... why are you saying "thanks"?

[RandFan]

RandFan, the person in your sig looks a lot like that lady that we're praising here... which leads me to ask, is that person in your sig that same lady? And is that YOU?

Otherwise, I'm confused... why are you saying "thanks"?Hi Eagle Eye.

I'm a guy.

My avatar is of my favorite liberal babe Janeane Garofalo. I say that with all sincerity. I don't share her politics but I love her acting, I love her movies and I think she's gorgeous. And for the record, the restraining order is simply her way of playing hard to get.

http://members.aye.net/~gharris/blog/thumbs/jg9.jpg

Call me Janeane...pleeeeeease?

[EagleEye]

Hi Eagle Eye.

I'm a guy.

My avatar is of my favorite liberal babe Janeane Garofalo. I say that with all sincerity. I don't share her politics but I love her acting, I love her movies and I think she's gorgeous. And for the record, the restraining order is simply her way of playing hard to get.


Okay, but that leaves my last question unanswered...

[RandFan]

Otherwise, I'm confused... why are you saying "thanks"? I'm thanking the person who posted the video because I was so impressed with it. That is precisely the candor that is needed. I'm not so sure that the Jews are so innocent but there is clearly a difference in the mindset. To create a dichotomy of us versus them can only lead to enmity and violence.

And yes, Muslims are not alone in such thinking it's just that they carry it to a different level at this time.

[robinson]

Wow. What a great clip/link. She is now available on Google videos
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Wafa+Sultan&hl=en

Talk about telling it like it is.

[Beerina]

You have to be very naive to believe that the West represents and all caring advanced civilisation that is fighting against a medieval civilisation. It is land possesion, oil, dominance and imposition what the West wants from the Muslim countries.

The US, Europe, and all western nations, heck, all non-Muslim nations could drop off the face of the earth tomorrow.

Would life inside the remaining ones change one iota? Would the woman's central complaint still be valid? No, and yes.

[Beerina]

I gotta agree that she's a little easy on the non-Muslims. E.g., no Jew has ever killed anyone as part of a protest? That's pretty strong.

She doesn't search out flaws in the Jews and Israel because she knows that's just a grain of sand, a distraction in the billion-plus world of Islam and the middle east.

People in the West do, because they've been trained since birth to feel guilty if they don't "see" each side in a debate. Plus there's the inherent, built-in, but rarely recognized racism they (the Westerners) posess, wherein the West is inherently superior, and every last thing they do should be circumspect, lest it "cause" someone else to do something nasty.

"Those people are just those stupid little simple-culture near-savages (though we'd never use that word!) who behave as per automata, so we need to shuffle our feet just so and wave our hands just that way, oops, didn't do it, and now they're mad. OUR BAD! :(

[Beerina]

Hi Eagle Eye.

I'm a guy.

My avatar is of my favorite liberal babe Janeane Garofalo. I say that with all sincerity. I don't share her politics but I love her acting, I love her movies and I think she's gorgeous. And for the record, the restraining order is simply her way of playing hard to get.

http://members.aye.net/~gharris/blog/thumbs/jg9.jpg

Call me Janeane...pleeeeeease?


Swap that damned picture for the other one please! I'm tired of looking at some middle-aged asian lady saluting Hitler.

[Tanstaafl]

Swap that damned picture for the other one please! I'm tired of looking at some middle-aged asian lady saluting Hitler.

Seconded. The picture you have been using is about the worst picture of Janeane I have ever seen. Please change it so we can all see her at her best.

[RandFan]

Swap that damned picture for the other one please! I'm tired of looking at some middle-aged asian lady saluting Hitler.

Seconded. The picture you have been using is about the worst picture of Janeane I have ever seen. Please change it so we can all see her at her best. Oh damn! I love that photo. Ok, I'll come up with something else but I'm not sure just a photo of Janeane will do it.

[fuelair]

Nice article in Wiki on her!!

[mmiller]

I've uploaded a radio interview with Wafa Sultan to raphidshare.

Here is the url (sorry it is broken-up, I don't have enough posts yet): rapidshare.com

/files/3315096/wafa-sultan.mp3

[Morrigan]

That video's been around for a while, but yes, it's pretty awesome.

I love this caricature!
http://www.annaqed.com/articles/ascx/images/wafa%20sultan%20pixl.jpg

[Gargoyle]

WOW! :eye-poppi

That was one of the most well formulated speeches I´ve ever heard Knowledge and simplicity in perfect harmony...

I must find a way to download it!

[Canadian Malcontent]

wow