Time we grew up

[Imaginative]

As religion so enthusiastically likes to say, ‘we are God’s children’, then as God’s children, isn’t it about time that we cut our ties with the parent so that we can make our own way in this world/universe without using the tired old cliché of ‘it’s God’s will’ for all the ills of the world.

To truly grow as a species we have to stop using God as an excuse for war, persecution, morality and everything else that religion likes to use as justification for its existence. Easier said than done, I know, but after 2000 years of wars, persecution and intolerance, most of it done in the name of religion, it’s time we accepted that we are old enough now to let go (metaphorically) of God’s apron strings and accept that whatever the future holds, it is us, not God, that will decide our fate.

[ImaginalDisc]

You can't server your ties to something which does not exist.

[TragicMonkey]

Some people don't want to grow up. They'd rather stay in the nursery, and not have to deal with the heartache, headache, and actual work of making life better.

[Iacchus]

You can't server your ties to something which does not exist.Do you mean sort of like the air that we breath? It's practically invisible.

[Dcdrac]

We can certainly grow up and jettison this God nonesense and then progress as a species and truely grow.

[ImaginalDisc]

Do you mean sort of like the air that we breath? It's practically invisible.

::Sigh:: I just sighed, and blew the papers on my desk across the room, which fluttered slowly downward, restrained against the full acceleration of gravity by air resistance. Air is real. God is in your imagination.

[Iacchus]

::Sigh:: I just sighed, and blew the papers on my desk across the room, which fluttered slowly downward, restrained against the full acceleration of gravity by air resistance. Air is real. God is in your imagination.Most people don't think about it when they breath. Do you?

[ImaginalDisc]

Most people don't think about it when they breath. Do you?

Most people have no idea how a toaster works either. Excuse me while I warm up a bagel.

[Belz...]

Most people don't think about it when they breath. Do you?

Air is detectable, and under some conditions, visible. Try God, now.

[Imaginative]

You can't server your ties to something which does not exist.

You can to a belief system, and for the record I did mention the word 'metaphorically' so as not to confuse anyone that I actually believe in this nonsense.

[Dcdrac]

try this one light a match, it ignites doesn't it? why because there is ogygen present in air, the sky is blue, why? becasue nitrogen is present, that is why we know air exists, as oppsed to a completely unprovable non existant fairy tale.

[Iacchus]

Most people have no idea how a toaster works either. Excuse me while I warm up a bagel.How do you know that there isn't something even more vital than the air that we breath? Just because you don't understand how it works doesn't mean it's not there does it?

[hgc]

Air is detectable, and under some conditions, visible. Try God, now.Visible in state of trance, delusion and in other hallucinatory circumstances.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Go away, Iacchus.

~~ Paul

[ImaginalDisc]

How do you know that there isn't something even more vital than the air that we breath? Just because you don't understand how it works doesn't mean it's there does it?

Are you making a claim? Can we test your claim?

[Iacchus]

try this one light a match, it ignites doesn't it? why because there is ogygen present in air, the sky is blue, why? becasue nitrogen is present, that is why we know air exists, as oppsed to a completely unprovable non existant fairy tale.The whole of human history is rife with tales of the supernatural. Now, just because some may understand it, and others don't, doesn't mean it doesn't exist does it?

[Dcdrac]

There is no evidence for these fairy tales you call supernatural, in fact I would argue for the jettisoning of that term as completely useless. God is a fairytale which is used by various groups to escape from having to find any real answers to living and life.

[Imaginative]

Visible in state of trance, delusion and in other hallucinatory circumstances.


Sounds OK to me but I know one thing, any trances, delusions or hallucinations I have, won't involve the concept of God or Gods. anything else is fair game.

[Imaginative]

Are you making a claim? Can we test your claim?

Please don't bait him (Iacchus) it just leads to the same old tiresome prove it debate that ultimately destroys what the thread was created for, that is genuine discussion.

[TragicMonkey]

How do you know that there isn't something even more vital than the air that we breath?

For the love of a deity which may or may not exist, it's spelled "breathe". "Breath" is the noun, "breathe" is the verb.

[Genesius]

Please don't bait him (Iacchus) it just leads to the same old tiresome prove it debate that ultimately destroys what the thread was created for, that is genuine discussion.

Baiting Iacchus could be fun. . . provided you miss any vital organs when you put him on the hook and provide for an air supply so he keeps flopping around long enough to attract a really big fish. . .

:D

[Iacchus]

Please don't bait him (Iacchus) it just leads to the same old tiresome prove it debate that ultimately destroys what the thread was created for, that is genuine discussion.And, if I recall correctly, I'm not the one making the claim ...

You can't server your ties to something which does not exist.I mean if you don't like what I have to say, perhaps you should put a little more time and consideration into what you have to say?

[Iacchus]

I mean don't you think it's time we all grew up? :D

[ImaginalDisc]

I mean if you don't like what I have to say, perhaps you should put a little more time and consideration into what you have to say?

Oh ok. It's high time we divorced ourself from the pernicious influence of sibilant cyclopean snow leprachauns. Iacchus, do you believe in sibilant cyclopean snow leprachauns?

[Genesius]

I mean don't you think it's time we all grew up? :D

Says the nit who believes in all sorts of fairy-tale nonsense.

Iacchus, in all your 9,000+ posts, you have never once brought anything of value to any of these discussions. So I think it's only proper to use my 666th post to tell you this: Go to the Devil!

[Iacchus]

Please don't bait him (Iacchus) it just leads to the same old tiresome prove it debate that ultimately destroys what the thread was created for, that is genuine discussion.Sorry, I didn't realize it was you who had started the thread. He's the one who started it though. Oh, and I don't see any reason why we couldn't acknowledge God, except perhaps more as a program which runs in the background. I don't think it would serve any purpose (God's or anyone else's) if we were just good little robots.

[ImaginalDisc]

Sorry, I didn't realize it was you had started the thread. He is the one who started it though. Oh, and I don't see any why we couldn't acknowledge God, except perhaps more as a program which runs in the background. I think it would serve any purpose (God's or anyone else's) if we were just good little robots.

I'm waiting for you to rush to the defense of sibiliant cyclopean snow leprachauns. They're just as real as god.

[Iacchus]

Oh ok. It's high time we divorced ourself from the pernicious influence of sibilant cyclopean snow leprachauns. Iacchus, do you believe in sibilant cyclopean snow leprachauns?Actually, everything we can stir up in our imagination does exist. Or, don't you believe our thoughts inhabit their own space?

[Tricky]

Actually, everything we can stir up in our imagination does exist. Or, don't you believe our thoughts inhabit their own space?
All right. I imagine you don't exist, therefore, your non-existence exists. What space is that inhabiting?

[Iacchus]

All right. I imagine you don't exist, therefore, your non-existence exists. What space is that inhabiting?But you have to concur, I must also exist in your mind in order for you to speak to me. Now, whether it's actually me or not is another story but, something is there.

[Imaginative]

I don't think it would serve any purpose (God's or anyone else's) if we were just good little robots.

Quite right but we have to get away from the idea that you will have to answer to some fictious entity for actions and deeds that we do. When the ice caps melt and the Earth becomes a desert, it's no good saying why did God do this to us, we will have done it ourselves and only we will be to blame.

[Tricky]

But you have to concur, I must also exist in your mind in order for you to speak to me. Now, whether it's actually me or not is another story but, something is there.
No I don't. I am imagining nothing is there, and all I have to do is imagine something and it and it is true. That's what you said. I will concur that it was an incredibly stupid thing for anyone to say, as this little example demostrates, but there's nothing I can do about the things that appear in the posts with the name Iacchus.

[Iacchus]

Says the nit who believes in all sorts of fairy-tale nonsense.

Iacchus, in all your 9,000+ posts, you have never once brought anything of value to any of these discussions. So I think it's only proper to use my 666th post to tell you this: Go to the Devil!Actually, I don't subscribe to that church. Hey, did you know that the name Jesus = 666? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=24636) And, it has everything to do with the number 9 as well. ;)

[Iacchus]

No I don't. I am imagining nothing is there, and all I have to do is imagine something and it and it is true. That's what you said. I will concur that it was an incredibly stupid thing for anyone to say, as this little example demostrates, but there's nothing I can do about the things that appear in the posts with the name Iacchus.So, then, why waste so much time trying to drive it (this demon) away? :confused:

[hgc]

Actually, everything we can stir up in our imagination does exist. Or, don't you believe our thoughts inhabit their own space?This is a serious downgrade the the idea of what imagination is. Personally, I won't let my imagination be limited to the universe of existents. For you, perhaps, growing up will mean that your imagination takes flight -- that it's free to break the bounds of reality while you are able to distinguish between imagination with reality.

[Iacchus]

Quite right but we have to get away from the idea that you will have to answer to some fictious entity for actions and deeds that we do.That depends, if we live a moral and ethical life, are we in fact not answering to it? ... contingent upon its existence of course.

When the ice caps melt and the Earth becomes a desert, it's no good saying why did God do this to us, we will have done it ourselves and only we will be to blame.Well, if we can see something coming and have the means to do something about it, then yes, we only have ourselves to blame.

[Iacchus]

This is a serious downgrade the the idea of what imagination is. Personally, I won't let my imagination be limited to the universe of existents. For you, perhaps, growing up will mean that your imagination takes flight -- that it's free to break the bounds of reality while you are able to distinguish between imagination with reality.And, if God were the reality, why should we necessarily deny it? I agree, depending on who's interpretation you use, God and can and will get in the way.

[cgordon]

The whole of human history is rife with tales of the supernatural. Now, just because some may understand it, and others don't, doesn't mean it doesn't exist does it?

We are story-telling apes. Many thousands of generations ago, when we had little understanding of the universe, we told stories to explain why things happened. Some stories were more interesting, more powerful than others. Some tales became myth, some myth became religion, some religion became dogma.

The more we understand of the universe, the less we need the stories, though even today, we tell stories. It's a mark of maturity and evolution when we can recognize storied for what they are -- or at least can question them and find out IF they hold a core of truth.

It's sad when so many of us refuse to take that step and continue to perpetuate the mythologies and mystical tales that are poor attempts to explain natural phenomena, science, nature and human perception.

[hgc]

And, if God were the reality, why should we necessarily deny it? I agree, depending on who's interpretation you use, God and can and will get in the way.It goes without saying, or it should, that if I knew God were a reality, I wouldn't deny it. But that's not the case. So what's your point? I can imagine God, in many forms. But that doesn't make it so, nor am I confused about the difference between my flights of fancy and what is observably real.

[Iacchus]

The more we understand of the universe, the less we need the stories, though even today, we tell stories. It's a mark of maturity and evolution when we can recognize storied for what they are -- or at least can question them and find out IF they hold a core of truth.And, if there was an afterlife? That would lend a lot more credibility to some of these other "stories" now wouldn't it?

[Iacchus]

It goes without saying, or it should, that if I knew God were a reality, I wouldn't deny it. But that's not the case.So then, why do you seem to stress the inappropriateness of others who speak up as if they do?

So what's your point? I can imagine God, in many forms. But that doesn't make it so, nor am I confused about the difference between my flights of fancy and what is observably real.Oh, I see ...

[hgc]

So then, why do you seem to stress the inappropriateness of others who speak up as if they do? ...You have misapprehended me ... slightly. I don't think it's inappropriate, but I will state when I think people are delusional in their beliefs -- especially when it involves the conflation of fantasy with reality. You see, the world and humanity's survival in hinge on dealing with real issues realistically. I want to encourage all thinking people to sort out fantasy from reality as we approach ever faster a massive die-off within the human race. I'm all for population stabilization and reduction, but not suddenly, through catastrophe.

[gnome]

One may twist the definition of "exist" all that one might please... it does not change the fact that if one claims that something can have a real effect on the observable world, then that effect can be tested for.

I don't choose to include in the definition of "exist" something that cannot have a real effect on the observable world. You're free to choose a different definition, but it is invalid to claim that I am using your definition, or to argue that something is real by my definition, then retreat to your definition when I ask for a testable consequence.

[Ladewig]

Easier said than done, I know, but after 2000 years of wars, persecution and intolerance, most of it done in the name of religion,

Wars, persecution, and intolerance in the name of religion is a lot older than 2000 years.

[Imaginative]

Wars, persecution, and intolerance in the name of religion is a lot older than 2000 years.

I now I was being conservative with the amount of time this has been going on but I was thinking how it relates to our current civilisation.

Another thought about our species came to mind, we are seperated into two kinds of people, like kids in a class room. You've got your kids that accept everything that the teacher tells them and don't think any further than that, then you've got your smart kids who aren't satisfied with the answers the Teacher gives them.

When the teacher is no longer able to answer the questions the kids ask, they will go and find out the answers for themselves. Unfortunately, the smart kids are in the minority and have to fight against the ignorance that surrounds them. History tells us what happens to the smart kids, especially when they question religion.

Perhaps Nietzsche had a point when he said something like 'the stupidity and ignorance of the masses will hold back the advancement of our species' the solution he suggested was too extreme so I will distance myself from that.

[rharbers]

Perhaps Nietzsche had a point when he said something like 'the stupidity and ignorance of the masses will hold back the advancement of our species' the solution he suggested was too extreme so I will distance myself from that.

Funny that you mention Nietzsche. He did observe one thing about the Hebrew bible that even christians can't comprehend. The theme that God hides gradually until there is no longer any direct communication with humans. This is how a parent raises his/her children until they are wise enough to take responsibility for themselves.

[slingblade]

That may or may not be true. The problem is that we continue to blame God for our "problems" and run to him when things go wrong, or when we want them to go differently.

The Christian God, if it exists, can distance itself all it wants to, but that won't force us to grow up. It never taught us to be self-reliant in the first place. As always, if God is a parent, it is an unusually cruel, abusive, and neglectful parent.

I think God drinks. He spends most of his days passed out on the couch, a lit cigarette in his hand, while the TV plays re-runs of "As the World Turns" to no one.

[rharbers]

That may or may not be true. The problem is that we continue to blame God for our "problems" and run to him when things go wrong, or when we want them to go differently.

The Christian God, if it exists, can distance itself all it wants to, but that won't force us to grow up. It never taught us to be self-reliant in the first place. As always, if God is a parent, it is an unusually cruel, abusive, and neglectful parent.

I think God drinks. He spends most of his days passed out on the couch, a lit cigarette in his hand, while the TV plays re-runs of "As the World Turns" to no one.

I was simply noting the theme in the Hebrew bible and not addressing whether God exists or not. That aside, we must accept responsibility for our actions and make moral decisions based on that responsibility; whether we believe in invisible beings or not.

[slingblade]

I was simply noting the theme in the Hebrew bible and not addressing whether God exists or not. That aside, we must accept responsibility for our actions and make moral decisions based on that responsibility; whether we believe in invisible beings or not.

Agreed.