Why no disclosure?

[marplots]

I never understood this at all. The usual reasoning is either commercial- "I had to pay to know that" or seen as harmful to practicing magicians. Let's rethink this. Every area of knowledge I've ever pursued has shown me no 'bottom'. And it's the same way with conjuring. And we kill interest in magic by not recruiting creative minds, but trying to be exclusive, by keeping it 'secret'.

If I learn a trick from a fellow magician, and it's good, you can damn well bet I'm buying some guy's book next chance I get. And someone who hasn't been bitten by the bug simply isn't going to get much out of- "cull 6 face cards to the top, faro shuffle twice and thumb count for a triple lift...."

The same guy who makes his own gaff for the Zombie Ball will be spending his money on thumb tips and flash paper and driving an ungodly number of miles to see a show or attend a convention. For me, that's cool beans.

[kittynh]

well for here it is pretty much because Mr.Randi wants it that way.

And so this is his forum, and this seems to be a very important rule to him.

I do know how to do the rope trick he did though at TAM1!

[evilvlad]

And we kill interest in magic by not recruiting creative minds.
Part of what has always made magic - magical, has always been the secrecy, and the fact that the lay audiences would not be able to learn of the methods.

With the internet, everything has changed. While respectful sites and forums disallow exposure, there are those who couldn't care less.

Does this allow for brilliant new minds to come out? NO! It leads to David Blaine regurgitations, who couldn't care less about respecting the art; rather looking to show off "demz coolz trickz."

While you're clearly new to Magic, please give it the respect that it warrants. Don't look to destroy a tradition that's hundreds, if not thousands of years old -- the secrecy -- rather honor and hold true to it.

[Stir]

I'm among those magicians who don't believe that disclosure does much damage to magic or to magicians. But there's still an excellent reason not to allow disclosure on this forum: IT'S BORING! If we allow it, in no time this board would be overrun by discussions of method, leaving those of us interested in the gigantic array of other topics related to magic looking for a new spot. If you want to discover or discuss method go to the library, or a book store, or a magic store, or a magic club, or a magic lecture, or many internet sites, or subscribe to a magic magazine, or ... it ain't hard to find ... but don't bring it here!

[Soapy Sam]

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards- for they are subtle and quick to anger." - JRR Tolkien.

For Lo! Our God is a Jealous God and also Amazing and he hath willed it.

[marplots]

Ok, all good criticisms. Although I do remember a cable show with Mr R exposing stuff for a half hour or so....

As far as the boring goes, I don't read all the threads or forums here, just the one's that peak my interest.

And I have been around awhile, had the pleasure of seeing Al Goshman live a couple of seats away (and yes, magicians are notorious name droppers).

Asses? Sure there are asses. But one hopes to discover, among the jerks, a peer. And I get a kick out of helping people starting out and brainstorming with other magicians.

All in all though, if the old grifter himself won't allow it, I won't break his rules.

Is there another forum you guys can recommend?

And finally, that card missing from that deck waaaay back in your junk drawer, under the birthday candles and the box of fuses? Four of clubs.

[Soapy Sam]

Good grief!
How did you do that?

[marplots]

Sorry, no disclosure.

[NeilC]

Magic is about secrets as much as anything and if they are all common knowledge then we don't have an art. Why take the risk? The net is so searchable people can find out answers all too easily and worse still, vultures repackage the secrets and sell em on ebay as "Derren Brown Mindreading" PDFs etc.

[Cain]

It's an incredibly silly rule, I agree. However, simply mentioning terms allows someone to look them up and learn the method of an effect. Here's an recent video of me doing a pass: http://media.putfile.com/My-Pass

I don't think there's any exposure there; it's a performance clip. Although I know for a fact you can easily discover the method via the web. And once you learn the dozen or so most important sleights, then it's just a matter of travelling over to magicvideodepot.com/, registering an account, and piecing together the secret for thousands of tricks.

[Darat]

Given that Randi is a magician I presume he is a member of at least one of the many magician societies (e.g. International Brotherhood of Magicians, the Society of American Magicians, the Magic Circle) and therefore I presume he has sworn to keep magic secrets "Indocilis Privata Loqui".

So it is not silly a rule for a forum associated so closely with Randi - his fellow magicians could claim that by "endorsing" a site where magic secrets are revealed he is breaching his membership agreement(s).

(All purely personal opinion and speculation - I have never spoken to Randi about why he made this rule for the start of the forum.)

[tkingdoll]

The people who are the most interested in learning how tricks are done are probably wannabe magicians themselves, therefore it's in their interests to go and research how a trick is done. For the vast, vast majority of the audience, however, they simply aren't going to bother. They have paid to be filled with wonder and awe, they aren't going to go home and Google the Three Hand Flip Shabang With Extra Cheese trick.

Magic is not just method, it is also skill, and just because you know how a trick is done, it doesn't mean you can replicate it. Therefore, the entertainment value becomes about observing the magician's skill rather than wondering 'how' he did it (and everyone knows already that magic isn't supernatural, it's done by sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors etc, so in basic way, we all already know 'how it's done').

Therefore I don't think there is a huge amount of harm in disclosing tricks if you want to, just don't do it here :)

I would say the secrecy and tradition of the Magic Circle et al is more smoke and mirrors, a very old but very basic marketing trick to preserve the commercial potential of magic for people who make their living that way, which is fair enough but perhaps becoming more and more redundant (thanks to the Internet etc).

Non-magicians learn very quickly that all the fun is gone once they know the method. People still want a bit of magic in their lives, so I don't think Internet disclosure is a huge threat. Maybe magicians will have to raise their game a little to keep us guessing, is all ;)

[Darat]

...snip...

I would say the secrecy and tradition of the Magic Circle et al is more smoke and mirrors, a very old but very basic marketing trick to preserve the commercial potential of magic for people who make their living that way, which is fair enough but perhaps becoming more and more redundant (thanks to the Internet etc).

...snip...

I agree but for Members of magic societies it is still taken quite seriously:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050917/ai_n15353163

...snip...

n 1994: John Lenahan is expelled for exposing the three-card monte trick

....snip...

n 2004: One member is expelled and three resign after their involvement in The Secrets of Magic, a show explaining the mechanics of tricks......



So it is a still a real "threat" to members of such organisations.

[tkingdoll]

I agree but for Members of magic societies it is still taken quite seriously:



So it is a still a real "threat" to members of such organisations.

Oh, I don't doubt it. It makes perfect sense to preserve your livelihood that way, I'm sure you don't get into magic to make money but if you can make a living doing something you love, then of course you're going to attempt to insure it by employing exclusivity.

But presumably you can still work as a magician if you aren't a member?

On second thoughts, it can't be that exclusive, I just read this from that article you linked:

1975: The Prince of Wales joins after performing a cup and ball trick :rolleyes:

[Diamond]

The Prince then follows this with the "I'm going to be King" trick. The audience can hardly wait...

[brodski]

The Prince then follows this with the "I'm going to be King" trick. The audience can hardly wait...
I'm still waiting on his vanishing act.

[deBergerac]

On second thoughts, it can't be that exclusive, I just read this from that article you linked:

1975: The Prince of Wales joins after performing a cup and ball trick

:rolleyes:

Obviously not that exclusive, apparently they let almost anyone in. But at least he had to perform.

My feeling is that disclosing the tricks of the trade on the Internet is not a good idea.

When I went to TAM2 I had a wonderful time. I also became very frustrated. Why was I frustrated? Because I saw people braking the laws of nature on stage, they even got well deserved applauds for doing it.

Of course I knew that they did not do it. Of course I knew it was just a trick, as if “just a trick” was ever an appropriate way to describe a skill attained by years of practice.
If I had the world at my fingertips at that moment and could find the answers to how they did it I would have found out right away.

I like to know things; I only enjoy being deceived in the same way as I enjoy being scared witless by watching horror movies late at night; that is not at all. But still the feeling in all its intenseness whether it is fear or frustration, makes me feel alive and sometimes entertained.

If you see a magician performing you should feel puzzled, confused, and frustrated. If you know the secret behind the trick it will diminish the effect. But who among us would rather look the other way and close our eyes when a magic trick is being explained than to actually learn how it is done?
We all prefer to know the secret rather than being entertained. That is why a little activation energy for learning the secret is in place.
(Activation energy is the amount of energy required for a chemical reaction to start.)

The people who are the most frustrated will find the secrets, they are not that deeply hidden. Most people do not try that hard to figure out the ways of the honest deceivers, thus the bulk of the populace will remain in their original state of unknowing.

Those who make the effort and acquire the secret knowledge will soon find themselves looking at magic in a different way. They will still appreciate magic but in a different way; it will be forever different and never the same.

I found that a good way to compensate the loss of the ability to see a magic show as the mere mortal do, is to perform magic. But in order to do so you do not only need to know the secrets you must also practice.

To make the secrets available for everyone without any effort is bad since it will only take away something and not give something in return. My experience is that magicians are quite happy to disclose secrets if they know that the person they are talking to will enjoy practising and performing them.

[LTC8K6]

Personally, I am only all the more amazed when I know how the trick is done, and I still can't spot it.

[Godmode]

I've always had a problem with the "no disclosure" policy of magicians. It is exactly this secret that works against healthy skepticism. "No, I won't explain how it works, but trust me...it's not real magic" Wouldn't it be a more convincing argument to back up the facts with proof?

[Azrael 5]

Obviously not that exclusive, apparently they let almost anyone in. But at least he had to perform.

Its not just performing,there are tests of your knowledge of Magic history,otherwise anyone who could do a simple trick could join.But they probably bent the rules for Prince Charles perhaps.

[BPScooter]

It is kind of an interesting question, though. I remember getting the feeling that I was "one of the elect" when I met a guy that I pestered until he agreed to give me lessons. At that point it was some sponge ball stuff, a couple of sleights, nothing major. There used to be this place in Seattle called Mickey Hades, which was cool because it was on the 4th floor of a downtown building above Shorey's Bookstore (occupied 2 floors below, cool used books, like a warehouse). Hades had no advertising at all, you had to know it was there. But anyone could walk onto the elevator and push 4, walk down the hall and through the door. Seems like the door had a little sign on it. Once in, it was the sort of glass countertop place where you could buy, well, flash paper and thumb tips and stuff. Plus lots more, I'm sure, but I was in heaven already with that. Another highlight was I got on their mailing list and they did occasional things, I remember going to a Phil Goldstein/Max Maven lecture that blew me away (and I still have several card packet tricks that I bought then, as well as 3 of the Tarbell volumes).

But really, I'm not a performer. I did one birthday party at one point. So maybe I'm not really safe with secrets. However, I do respect the need to keep some basic principles away from those I hope to fool.

I guess my opinion is that the fun is so much fun, for both performer and audience, when people aren't blabbing "here's how I did it" all the time. Some of Penn and Teller's things, like the see-thru cups and balls and the plexiglass big stage illusion thing are frankly even more interesting and amazing when you see the intricacies of the work behind it. So that I think is tasteful. Just my 2 cents.

[JollyRoger]

Why no disclosure?

Because a good Magician never gives up their secret, but a great Magician can always thing up a better one.

Ehrich Weiss 1989

[Bob Klase]

Because a good Magician never gives up their secret, but a great Magician can always thing up a better one.

Ehrich Weiss 1989

??? Didn't he die in 1926? Or is that a post-death quote?

[JollyRoger]

??? Didn't he die in 1926? Or is that a post-death quote?

its a great magician with a new trick

[BPScooter]

Who might be a good example of a non-disclosing conjurer in the present day? What's a good example of a fully honest cheater, who cheats a happy crowd? I'm not talking politics, please! I'm just seeing if there is a new cheater out there. Try this: take a cell phone at random from the audience phones. Have the owner onstage and call a best friend to verify the call. Then work some magic, have the remote caller pick a card or verify a card or something. Have a few random cell phones go off in the crowd. The cell phone today is a modern icon, a little talisman... some magician should f** with people's brains. Maybe I am out of date, this could be old as the hills and someone is doing it already.