The McJesus Burger

[Mephisto]

Having been raised staunch Catholic, I've never been afforded the luxury of asking certain questions regarding the Catholic faith. One of the things that has always kept me wondering is the Catholic tendency to draw a parallel between Jesus and meat (but only on a Friday).

I remember church calendars from a long time ago, and all of them had a small fish over each Friday reminding Catholics that they must abstain from eating meat on that day. Of course, that antique church law was rescinded and now Catholics aren't required to equate their hamburger (or taco, or filet mignon, or corn dog) with Jesus except on Fridays during Lent.

Can anyone explain to me why it's considered "respectful" NOT to eat meat on the same day that Jesus was supposedly crucified?

[Marquis de Carabas]

It's the fact that one is forgoing something, not necessarily the thing forgone, that is the important feature of the tradition. It is a mini-fast, an abstinence from some thing to show commitment to the god of your choice.

As to why the thing abstained from ended up being meat,, specifically, I do not know. Many have suggested it was merely a ploy to boost the livelihoods of Catholic fishermen. Whether there is any truth to that, I know not.

[Mephisto]

It's the fact that one is forgoing something, not necessarily the thing forgone, that is the important feature of the tradition. It is a mini-fast, an abstinence from some thing to show commitment to the god of your choice.


I knew that part of it, and used to laugh inwardly when (as a kid) someone told me they were giving up spinich or broccoli for Lent. These "mini-sacrifices" were never really sacrifices at all (at least as I knew them), but more an excuse to diet or not eat something you didn't like to begin with.

As to why the thing abstained from ended up being meat,, specifically, I do not know. Many have suggested it was merely a ploy to boost the livelihoods of Catholic fishermen. Whether there is any truth to that, I know not.

But what about the Catholic cowboys? Didn't anyone think of them? ;)

[Marquis de Carabas]

But what about the Catholic cowboys? Didn't anyone think of them? ;)
Popeback Mountain?

[elliotfc]

Having been raised staunch Catholic, I've never been afforded the luxury of asking certain questions regarding the Catholic faith.

Interesting. How old are you by the way?

Are you saying...if you were to ask your parents, or a priest, "Why do we abstain from meat", they would have slapped you, or told you to stop asking such questions? Or, were you specifically told never to ask questions about your faith? Did you attend a catholic school, or, receive cathechetical instruction?

This is from catholicism.about.com
http://catholicism.about.com/cs/lent/f/whynomeat04.htm

One of the things that has always kept me wondering is the Catholic tendency to draw a parallel between Jesus and meat (but only on a Friday).

I'm not sure if this is a valid parallel. You can certainly receive communion on Fridays during Lent, even Good Friday (no mass is celebrated on Good Friday, just services which can incorporate the distribution of communion), so that analogy doesn't extend as far as it could/ought, assuming it is valid, which I don't believe it is.

I remember church calendars from a long time ago, and all of them had a small fish over each Friday reminding Catholics that they must abstain from eating meat on that day.

They still do...which means that fish don't qualify as meat I guess. I wonder if the Darwin fish counts as meat? :)

Of course, that antique church law was rescinded and now Catholics aren't required to equate their hamburger (or taco, or filet mignon, or corn dog) with Jesus except on Fridays during Lent.

Again, I don't think we are supposed to equate Jesus with meat, but if you can supply info to the contrary I'd be keen to see it.

Can anyone explain to me why it's considered "respectful" NOT to eat meat on the same day that Jesus was supposedly crucified?

I don't think it has to do with respect. It's a sacrifice. Granted, it's a small sacrifice compared to the sacrifice of God's son. Catholic Christians are called to make personal sacrifices during Lent.

Some Catholics extend this to the entire year in response to abortion. And, no, they are not equating abortion with meat, although a non-initiate can apparently make that association.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

As to why the thing abstained from ended up being meat,, specifically, I do not know. Many have suggested it was merely a ploy to boost the livelihoods of Catholic fishermen. Whether there is any truth to that, I know not.

Interesting, I've never heard that before.

Were Catholics more likely to be fisherman than herders? I would think that if this was initiated in the Middle Ages (as many Catholic traditions seem to have been) you had homogenous Catholic towns and villages so this would have been a moot point.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

I knew that part of it, and used to laugh inwardly when (as a kid) someone told me they were giving up spinich or broccoli for Lent. These "mini-sacrifices" were never really sacrifices at all (at least as I knew them), but more an excuse to diet or not eat something you didn't like to begin with.

Exactly. It isn't just sacrifice, but understanding the "whys" about it. In fact, if sacrifice doesn't...let's say enhance your prayer/spiritual life, or lead you to some greater understanding or appreciation of theology, something along those lines...it wasn't sacrifice at all, or a completely useless sacrifice.

Meaning, you could actually sacrifice something you were really into (television or something), but if it doesn't enhance your spirituality (you picked up strip poker instead) it probably doesn't have any worth in God's eyes.

Unless he was watching the strip poker games..........

-Elliot

[Mephisto]

Popeback Mountain?

*LOL* I guess that's how they can develop a taste for altar boy flesh?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Hrm, I assumed it had something to do with the whole transubstantiation thing, but I'm not Catholic, so it was pure WAG on my part.

[Mephisto]

Interesting. How old are you by the way?


They still do...which means that fish don't qualify as meat I guess. I wonder if the Darwin fish counts as meat? :)

I'm close to 55, why? Thanks for the link, I thought this was interesting:

"One belief of why meat was chosen is because most people feel that giving up meat (beef and chicken) is an inconvenience. The Church asks us to inconvenience ourselves sometimes to serve as a reminder that they should always have God as a top priorty and pleasures as a lesser priorty. Another belief is that in many poorer countries, beef is a specialty. For us to give it up, helps us to remember about people who are less fortunate than we are."

What do poor people in the desert eat during Lent? I know fish is expensive here!

[The Don]

What do poor people in the desert eat during Lent? I know fish is expensive here!
Sand, it's not meat either

[elliotfc]

I'm close to 55, why?

That sounds about right. I grew in the 80s, and to me it's inconceivable that Catholic kids would be *prevented* or *afraid* of asking questions. I'm sure maybe .01% of Catholic kids did feel that way in the 80s, but it just seems ridiculous, and I went to Jesuit schools and came from a very religious family.

In the 50s, maybe in the 60s too...I guess it's more understandable. But even then, if a Catholic kid asked a question that wasn't sarcastic or disrespectful, it's still hard for me to see how they would be prevented from doing that, or yelled at for doing that. I'm sure it happened though, definitely more often than when I grew up.

What do poor people in the desert eat during Lent? I know fish is expensive here!

Whatever they can get their hands on no doubt! I doubt that poor people in the desert have much use/interest in Lenten prohibitions, nor would their bishop be very interested in enforcement/inculcation.

-Elliot

[Belz...]

It's the fact that one is forgoing something, not necessarily the thing forgone, that is the important feature of the tradition. It is a mini-fast, an abstinence from some thing to show commitment to the god of your choice.

Pfft. I prefer Crom. He doesn't ask for ANYTHING, and gives NOTHING in return. The kind of god I can appreciate.

[Beerina]

Does the special dispensation to have corned beef this Friday also apply to hamburgers, or only corned beef?

Because my family has a big tradition of having hamburgers on St. Patrick's Day. Maybe a Crave Case, with cheese! Mmmmmm.....

[elliotfc]

Does the special dispensation to have corned beef this Friday also apply to hamburgers, or only corned beef?

Because my family has a big tradition of having hamburgers on St. Patrick's Day. Maybe a Crave Case, with cheese! Mmmmmm.....

It depends on what diocese you live in...but I'm pretty certain that in the dioceses that offer dispensation, it would include all meat.

A bit unrelated...but why can Jews eat hamburgers? I get the cheeseburger thing...but I thought they couldn't eat ham either.

-Elliot

[Marquis de Carabas]

Hamburgers have no ham. They're beef.

[Complexity]

A bit unrelated...but why can Jews eat hamburgers? I get the cheeseburger thing...but I thought they couldn't eat ham either.
Either that was one of the best straight-faced deliveries I've seen, or one of the worst gaps in 'common knowledge' I've heard of.

[elliotfc]

Hamburgers have no ham. They're beef.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And I suppose sandwiches aren't made out of sand. Or wiches.

-Elliot

[Marquis de Carabas]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And I suppose sandwiches aren't made out of sand. Or wiches.

Well, mine are. And covered in baby oil.

[elliotfc]

Well, mine are. And covered in baby oil.

Baby oil is made out of babies. You fiend!

-Elliot

[Marquis de Carabas]

Baby oil is made out of babies. You fiend!

Sorry, I misspoke. I meant baby seal oil.

[elliotfc]

Sorry, I misspoke. I meant baby seal oil.

Get thee to Canada!

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CANADA_SEAL_HUNT?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-03-15-20-40-28

[Spidey13]

I never understood not eating meat on Fridays either. First of all, how does that affect Catholic vegetarians? Also, it doesn't seem to be a sacrifice at all. Have you ever been to a Catholic fish fry during Lent? Damn good food and tons of people reveling in that good old mortal sin of gluttony!

[elliotfc]

I never understood not eating meat on Fridays either. First of all, how does that affect Catholic vegetarians?

In the inverse. Catholic vegetarians must eat meat on Fridays. That is their Lenten sacrifice. Now, they'll beg to differ, but they are wrong, damn hippies.

-Elliot

[Zbu]

Can anyone explain to me why it's considered "respectful" NOT to eat meat on the same day that Jesus was supposedly crucified?

Because it's just a bunch of people screwing with other people by holding the unknown over their heads? They could say 'don't eat fish on Thursdays without your clown nose or you're damned' and it would still go through. The only logic in religion is the logic of the elite over the sheep, and that may just be it.

[elliotfc]

Because it's just a bunch of people screwing with other people by holding the unknown over their heads? They could say 'don't eat fish on Thursdays without your clown nose or you're damned' and it would still go through. The only logic in religion is the logic of the elite over the sheep, and that may just be it.

I don't understand. If they are sheep, they are herbivores, so you're not making any sense here.

But the clown nose point I get completely. Damn clown nosed hippies.

-Elliot

[ImaginalDisc]

Get thee to Canada!

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CANADA_SEAL_HUNT?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-03-15-20-40-28

Let's all go clubbing baby seals!

[elliotfc]

Let's all go clubbing baby seals!

Whoever said that Canada isn't a fun place?

[ChristineR]

It's very simple really. Once upon a time anyone could go out with a fishing pole and catch a fish. Fish was equated with poverty. Servents used to have it written into their contracts that they would be fed fish no more than once a week. Feeding fish to monks, nuns and priests was an economy measure. It's simply meant to be a sacrifice.

The greek Orthodox are vegan during Lent, but are allowed to eat fish on feast days.

Nowadays fish is a delicacy and the fish thing is silly, which is why Vatican II dropped it. When I was a kid the rich Catholics used to gorge on shrimp and lobster on Fridays and the poor Catholics had to settle for fish sticks. We poor Protestants used to laugh and eat our hamburgers and point out this as another deficiency in the Catholic point of view.

[Mephisto]

That sounds about right. I grew in the 80s, and to me it's inconceivable that Catholic kids would be *prevented* or *afraid* of asking questions. I'm sure maybe .01% of Catholic kids did feel that way in the 80s, but it just seems ridiculous, and I went to Jesuit schools and came from a very religious family.

In the 50s, maybe in the 60s too...I guess it's more understandable. But even then, if a Catholic kid asked a question that wasn't sarcastic or disrespectful, it's still hard for me to see how they would be prevented from doing that, or yelled at for doing that. I'm sure it happened though, definitely more often than when I grew up.

Yeah, I was in school in the 50s early 60s, but (thankfully) didn't attend parochial school. Even then, Catechism (sp?) was physical trial enough. We spent four hours each Saturday (including confession and mass) under the demanding command of several burley nuns and a priest who must have been a reincarnated Grand Inquistitor. It was permissible (back then) to smack students around and spankings, knocks on the head, or palm-slapping with rulers were commonplace. Every Catholic kid I knew had a nickname for their least favorite nun back then.


Whatever they can get their hands on no doubt! I doubt that poor people in the desert have much use/interest in Lenten prohibitions, nor would their bishop be very interested in enforcement/inculcation.

-Elliot

There are actually many traditional meals for Lent in the Hispanic (Mexican-American) community. Since meat isn't always on the menu, it isn't that difficult to go meatless for one day. "Comida de la semana santa," is food for the Holy Week (leading up to Easter) and usually consist of beans with spinich, tuna patties, and other foods that I never really developed a taste for. They're bland, much like Lent. :)

I learned during Catechism once, NOT to ask questions as I often posed rhetorical questions that the nuns weren't comfortable with, such as, "If God is everywhere, why do we have to go to church?" I also witnessed the severe beating of a friend of mine (a real jokster) who got caught saying, "In the name of the Daddy-O, in the name of the Kiddo, in the name of the Holy Spook, Amen!" while learning how to do the sign of the cross. A nun descended upon him like Batman after a wife-beater. It's a scene that still mades me shudder today!

[Mephisto]

Pfft. I prefer Crom. He doesn't ask for ANYTHING, and gives NOTHING in return. The kind of god I can appreciate.

AND, he's worshipped by the Governor of California! :)

[elliotfc]

Here is an interesting thread from a different forum about this topic

http://www.catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311

[Mephisto]

Because it's just a bunch of people screwing with other people by holding the unknown over their heads? They could say 'don't eat fish on Thursdays without your clown nose or you're damned' and it would still go through. The only logic in religion is the logic of the elite over the sheep, and that may just be it.

Get thee behind me, Zbu! No wait, I don't feel any more comfortable with you back there. :)

[Mephisto]

Here is an interesting thread from a different forum about this topic

http://www.catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311

Interesting, elliot. I wonder how they would feel about suggesting they hammer nails into their feet? Now THAT'S a penance! :0

[elliotfc]

Interesting, elliot. I wonder how they would feel about suggesting they hammer nails into their feet? Now THAT'S a penance! :0

If it brings you closer to God...

...well, if infection sets in...it may bring you closer to God than you might have planned! -Elliot