If you could remove ONE person from history, who would it be?

[EGarrett]

A list off the top of my head...

Karl Marx
Adolf Hitler
Oppenheimer
Whoever founded Christianity
Whoever founded Islam
Whoever founded Judaism (to be fair)
Someone else entirely (specify in post)
No one. (Ray Bradbury/Simpsons/Twilight Zone fans)

And if you choose the last option, go ahead and say who you'd remove if you HAD to remove someone.

[JamesDillon]

Have you ever read Karl Marx, or just bought in to the Reagan-era misrepresentations of him?

[Marquis de Carabas]

My dad, since obviously that would make me the product of virgin birth*, and then I could develop a bitchin' Messiah complex.

ETA*...OK, not definitely virgin, but certainly miraculous.

[ImaginalDisc]

Christopher Columbus. Doing so would have delayed (renewed) European contact with the Amricas an unknown amount of time, but at that time, the Aztecs would have been either overthrown, or stabilized. They happened to be in a particuarly vulnerable position when they were conquered. If first contact had happened more graudally, it's possible ([ure speculation) that there would have been more of a delay between the spread of infection Old World diseases and the successive conquests. Maybe they would have stood a chance of regrouping and repopulating while the Europeans fought over Catholocism/Protestantism, and other squabbles.

Honestly, I don't know if it would have made for a better world, but it would probably have been very different.

[Jorghnassen]

Lady Di, because she bears (bore) an uncanny resemblance to Wayne Gretzky.

[TJ]

Pontius Pilate. If he hadn't killed jesus, then there would have been no martyr to excuse the sins of the world. We wouldn't still be plagued by this delusional horse$hit and might have to be nice to each other because it's the right thing to. No jesus, no forgiveness.

[EGarrett]

Have you ever read Karl Marx, or just bought in to the Reagan-era misrepresentations of him?
The guy said some brilliant stuff, but much like Star Wars...it's the followers that caused the problem.

I assume that by removing Marx, you get rid of Lenin, Stalin, Mao and all those other wonderful people...

Of course, someone else could have stepped up in his place, but you see the reasoning I hope.

Christopher Columbus. Doing so would have delayed (renewed) European contact with the Amricas an unknown amount of time, but at that time, the Aztecs would have been either overthrown, or stabilized. They happened to be in a particuarly vulnerable position when they were conquered. If first contact had happened more graudally, it's possible ([ure speculation) that there would have been more of a delay between the spread of infection Old World diseases and the successive conquests. Maybe they would have stood a chance of regrouping and repopulating while the Europeans fought over Catholocism/Protestantism, and other squabbles.

Honestly, I don't know if it would have made for a better world, but it would probably have been very different.That's a very interesting point. I'll have to think about that one.

[Nyarlathotep]

Have you ever read Karl Marx, or just bought in to the Reagan-era misrepresentations of him?


I don't think the point of removing Karl Marx would have anything to do with anything he actually wrote. I HAVE read his works and consider them a wonderfully naive fantasy, thus no more dangerous than any other utopian scheme. I think the point of removing Karl Marx would be to stop the horribl things perpetrated in the name of the naive fantasy he created, whether those things actually had anything to do with his words or not.

[TragicMonkey]

Nietzsche's sister.

[ImaginalDisc]

Pontius Pilate. If he hadn't killed jesus, then there would have been no martyr to excuse the sins of the world. We wouldn't still be plagued by this delusional horse$hit and might have to be nice to each other because it's the right thing to. No jesus, no forgiveness.

Pilate's function, assuming that the whole Jesus myth has any basis in fact, would have been accomplished by a different person acting in the same office. Pilate did what pretty much any other Roman beurocrat in hi position would have done.

[blutoski]

And if you choose the last option, go ahead and say who you'd remove if you HAD to remove someone.

Can I reserve this until I actually need it? I'm thinking specifically that I'd like to hold onto this power until I'm in line for a really good seat in a busy restaurant, and then pop the guy in front of me out of existence.

Or slow drivers. Poof! Road's clear!

[The_Fire]

Uri Geller...Definately Uri Geller......
Think about it: No Uri Geller, no basis for the popularity of woo....

[Serenity]

Yigal Amir.

[Terry]

me, because then I wouldn't have to care how it turned out.

[TJ]

Pilate's function, assuming that the whole Jesus myth has any basis in fact, would have been accomplished by a different person acting in the same office. Pilate did what pretty much any other Roman beurocrat in hi position would have done.

I'm sure you're right, but I can dream, can't I?

[LW]

The guy said some brilliant stuff, but much like Star Wars...it's the followers that caused the problem.

I agree with Nyar about Marx's writing being rather naive. I fail to see brilliance in asserting that:

there is an inevitable progression of social orders that will culminate in establishing a communist society [1];
the way to reach the said utopia is by armed rebellion; and
the value of everything comes directly from the amount of labour invested in creating the thing.


[1] With 'communist' as in the ideal state of equality and freedom, not 'communist' as in what the East Block countries really were like.

[JLam]

Think about it: No Uri Geller, no basis for the popularity of woo....
Surely, you jest.

[chris epic]

Adam and Eve or the first hominid. Then we wouldn't have to worry about being speculative or skeptical or philosophic, etc....:D

[ImaginalDisc]

Adam and Eve or the first hominid. Then we wouldn't have to worry about being speculative or skeptical or philosophic, etc....:D

Another species might have evolved intelligence anyway. There's inconclusive evidence to suggest that several different lineages of realtively bright homids existed at the same time.

[SuperCoolGuy]

Xenu.

Then all those aliens wouldn't have been killed and their confused souls lodged in us humans 76 million years ago.

[El Greco]

8 out of 10 friends I asked replied "my wife" (the other 2 are not married).

[Nyarlathotep]

8 out of 10 friends I asked replied "my wife" (the other 2 are not married).


Boy, those eight guys sure seem to dislike your wife.

[El Greco]

Boy, those eight guys sure seem to dislike your wife.

Not at all, they just like me too much.

[Nyarlathotep]

Not at all, they just like me too much.

Not that there's anything wrong with that....

[Giz]

Christopher Columbus. Doing so would have delayed (renewed) European contact with the Amricas an unknown amount of time, but at that time, the Aztecs would have been either overthrown, or stabilized. They happened to be in a particuarly vulnerable position when they were conquered. If first contact had happened more graudally, it's possible ([ure speculation) that there would have been more of a delay between the spread of infection Old World diseases and the successive conquests. Maybe they would have stood a chance of regrouping and repopulating while the Europeans fought over Catholocism/Protestantism, and other squabbles.

Honestly, I don't know if it would have made for a better world, but it would probably have been very different.

I thought the overthrow of the mesoamerican empires was one of those deals where even hardcore anti-colonialists gave the conquistadors a pat on the back. It's hard to get misty about priests clad in flayed human skin who sacrifice tens of thousands in a sitting.

Plus the discoveries (and their economic stimulant) were a powerful boost to the European renaissence.

I'd leave Columbus alone (I wouldn't want to risk weakening the renaissence or the enlightenment that followed).


I also would probably leave oppenheimer. Why? Because he developed the A-Bomb... in the US. If you get rid of him you get the following possibilities (in what I consider their order of probability):
1) A-Bomb developed by somebody else, but still in the USA.
2) A-Bomb developed by somebody else, but outside the USA (say USSR?).
3) No-one ever developes da bomb.

As I think 2) is more likely than 3) I dont think there's anything to be gained by offing oppenheimer.

I would probably put a hit on Hitler though (unlike many dictators I don't know that it was inevitable that someone would come along and fill his shoes in history. Otoh, there were plenty of bloodthirsty types ready to succeed Lenin, so we might not end up any better having strangled stalin)

[chris epic]

Another species might have evolved intelligence anyway. There's inconclusive evidence to suggest that several different lineages of realtively bright homids existed at the same time.

Yeah, but it wouldn't be any of us

[El Greco]

I guess I'd remove the person who was responsible for the largest delay in the developement of science in general. I don't know who that person was, though.

[EGarrett]

I agree with Nyar about Marx's writing being rather naive. I fail to see brilliance in asserting that:

there is an inevitable progression of social orders that will culminate in establishing a communist society [1];
the way to reach the said utopia is by armed rebellion; and
the value of everything comes directly from the amount of labour invested in creating the thing.


[1] With 'communist' as in the ideal state of equality and freedom, not 'communist' as in what the East Block countries really were like.
I mean what I said...that he said SOME brilliant stuff. One of my favorites line is the one that goes something like..."History repeats itself. The first time as tragedy. The second time as farce."

Boy, those eight guys sure seem to dislike your wife.LOL.

I would probably put a hit on Hitler though (unlike many dictators I don't know that it was inevitable that someone would come along and fill his shoes in history. Otoh, there were plenty of bloodthirsty types ready to succeed Lenin, so we might not end up any better having strangled stalin)That's one of the reasons I might rub out Marx. While on his own he was amusing, the people who bought into his stuff, Mao, Lenin and Stalin most notably are the ones that would probably have left the world much better off if they'd never been introduced to his work.

A lot of historian-type people love to point out that Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler did Jews...but it's not publicized because Stalin apparently wasn't trying to take over the world at the time.

But by the same token, Hitler caused a world war.

What about removing Franz Ferdinand? The guy who's assassination started World War I? Which in turn devastated Germany and allowed Hitler to rise to power--

(head explodes)

[delphi_ote]

Oppenheimer
Why?
J. Robert Oppenheimer (April 22, 1904 – February 18, 1967) was an American theoretical physicist of German-Jewish origin, best known for his role as the scientific director of the Manhattan Project, the World War II effort to develop the first nuclear weapons, at the secret Los Alamos laboratory in New Mexico. Known colloquially as "the father of the atomic bomb", Oppenheimer lamented the weapon's killing power after it was used to destroy the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. After the war, he was a chief advisor to the newly created Atomic Energy Commission and used that position to lobby for international control of atomic energy and to avert the nuclear arms race with the Soviet Union. After invoking the ire of many politicians and scientists with his outspoken political opinions during the Red Scare, he had his security clearance revoked in a much-publicized and politicized hearing in 1954. Though stripped of his direct political influence, Oppenheimer continued to lecture, write, and work in physics. A decade later, President John F. Kennedy awarded him the Enrico Fermi Award as a gesture of rehabilitation. As a scientist, Oppenheimer is remembered most for being a chief founder of the American school of theoretical physics while at the University of California, Berkeley.
A nice summary from wikipedia.

[delphi_ote]

I think Hitler is the easiest to argue. No Hitler, no Nazi Germany, no WWII, no Holocaust, no motivation to build the atomic bomb, no arms race, no cold war, no Israel-Palestine conflict... all of these probably oversimplify a lot of circumstances (like what would've happened with Japan and how Germany might have resolved its economic crises without war) but certainly the world would be a very different (and I think better) place.

[slingblade]

L. Ron.

[ImaginalDisc]

I think Hitler is the easiest to argue. No Hitler, no Nazi Germany, no WWII, no Holocaust, no motivation to build the atomic bomb, no arms race, no cold war, no Israel-Palestine conflict... all of these probably oversimplify a lot of circumstances (like what would've happened with Japan and how Germany might have resolved its economic crises without war) but certainly the world would be a very different (and I think better) place.

I dunno, the time was ripe for some dictiator to step in. If not Hitler, it might have been someone else. Maybe even someone who wasn't a military idiot.

[anti-Democracy]

Definitely Hitler.

Hitler cared about his people, brought his country to success, and fought a war against BOTH communism and capitalism.

I'm glad we have Bush instead. He cares about his money first and foremost, is bringing our country to economic ruin, and fought a war to defend Israel.

Long live Bush!

[Melendwyr]

I guess I'd remove the person who was responsible for the largest delay in the developement of science in general. I don't know who that person was, though. Well, he's technically mythical, but that would probably be Romulus. Without a Rome to sack ancient Greece, they may have continued to develop scientifically... and without a Roman empire to collapse (and spread Christianity) there'd be no Dark Ages.

[delphi_ote]

I dunno, the time was ripe for some dictiator to step in. If not Hitler, it might have been someone else. Maybe even someone who wasn't a military idiot.
If we play the game that way, then choosing anyone is pointless. :D

[delphi_ote]

Definitely Hitler.

Hitler cared about his people, brought his country to success, and fought a war against BOTH communism and capitalism.

I'm glad we have Bush instead. He cares about his money first and foremost, is bringing our country to economic ruin, and fought a war to defend Israel.

Long live Bush!
Anyone got a P.T.M. (posts till meltdown) pool going yet on this guy?

[CriticalThanking]

Oh, lordy. There is an old short story. God and the devil (?) take turns replaying history and changing one thing. One time Jesus dies young. Another time Pasteur dies or fails to make his discovery for other reasons. Anyone remember the author?

CT

[Ducky]

Definitely Hitler.

Hitler cared about his people, brought his country to success, and fought a war against BOTH communism and capitalism.

I'm glad we have Bush instead. He cares about his money first and foremost, is bringing our country to economic ruin, and fought a war to defend Israel.

Long live Bush!


How long have you had your white supremacist membership? Why do you beat your wife? Have you stopped molesting children?



Take your idiotic strawmen and adhoms elsewhere. (And I don't even like GWB.)

[Nyarlathotep]

The Emperor Constantine. He was the one that made Christianity the official religion of Rome, thus promulgating it throughout Europe. Which of course caused it to spread throughout the Americas centuries later.

[ImaginalDisc]

If we play the game that way, then choosing anyone is pointless. :D

No, Hitler didn't do anything that no one else could have done. I agree with Marlyn Vos Savant when she was asked "who are the most important people in the world", she said it was the creative and visionary people. Oh, and engineers, who make the world work. If Bush isn't President, someone else definately will be. If Newton hadn't discovered calculus, we might have had to wait quite a while for it.

[Skeptic]

me, because then I wouldn't have to care how it turned out.

Of course, you CAN do it...

[Skeptic]

The guy said some brilliant stuff, but much like Star Wars...it's the followers that caused the problem.

I assume that by removing Marx, you get rid of Lenin, Stalin, Mao and all those other wonderful people...

Of course, someone else could have stepped up in his place, but you see the reasoning I hope.


Communism is a wondeful theory, with one flaw: it CAN be put into practice.

[DSE]

The Emperor Constantine. He was the one that made Christianity the official religion of Rome, thus promulgating it throughout Europe. Which of course caused it to spread throughout the Americas centuries later.
I'd have to go with Nyarlathotep on this one...

[EGarrett]

Why?

A nice summary from wikipedia.Well, it could be argued that nuclear weapons will inevitably be the end of civilization. And Oppenheimer could be seen as the man most responsible.

[DSE]

Well, it could be argued that nuclear weapons will inevitably be the end of civilization. And Oppenheimer could be seen as the man most responsible.
Someone else would have done it eventually. That's the thing with science. Given time, it's people independent.

[DarkMagician]

The OP, so I wouldn't have had to think about this insepid question.

[Curnir]

Paul the apostle

[The Don]

Captain Cook. Without him it's unlikely that Australia would have been a British colony and hence we wouldn't be getting our arses whooped on a regular basis in a variety of Anglo-centric sports.

[sphenisc]

No, Hitler didn't do anything that no one else could have done. I agree with Marlyn Vos Savant when she was asked "who are the most important people in the world", she said it was the creative and visionary people. Oh, and engineers, who make the world work. If Bush isn't President, someone else definately will be. If Newton hadn't discovered calculus, we might have had to wait quite a while for it.

Not really, Leibniz worked it out pretty well simultaneously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz#The_calculus

My choice is whoever set fire to the Library of Alexandria.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=9

[Dcdrac]

Adolf Hitler
Josef Stalin
Calvin Cooldige
J Edgar Hoover
Angleton
Pinochet in fact all military dictators
Calvin
Trotsky
Lenin
Eichman
Himmler
Ivan the terrible
Ghenghis Khan
Julius Ceaser
Bizmark
Gatling
Colt
Noble
Browning (not Robert Louis)
Cecil Rhodes
Thomas de Torquemada
Henry 8th in fact all the tudors
All the Crusdaders
Osima Bin laden
Qadafy and all Mid East dictators and kings
Palmerston
Napoleon Bonaparte
Louis Napoleon Bonaporte
Mussolini
Berlusconi
Phillipe Petain

[Melendwyr]

Communism is a wondeful theory, with one flaw: it CAN be put into practice. No, Communism is a wonderful theory with the flaw that it cannot be put into practice.

You understand Communism as well as you understand Fascism... or the concept of law... or anything else, for that matter.

Invalid argument.

[LW]

Otoh, there were plenty of bloodthirsty types ready to succeed Lenin, so we might not end up any better having strangled stalin

However, Stalin was by far the most ruthless of the Bolshevik leaders, followed by Lenin and Trotsky. One reason why it was Stalin who gained leadership after Lenin's death was that Zinovjev and Kamenev couldn't bear themselves to start killing fellow revolutionaries when they had Stalin and his immediate supporters in their power. They missed the window of opportunity and paid for it with their lives when Stalin finally consolidated his power and started purging.

It is difficult to say whether Trotsky could have caused more damage had he won since he was a supporter of immediate world revolution. It is possible (but by no means certain) that he would have started WWII by late 20s.

Removing both Stalin and Trotsky from the equation might have made the Soviet rule less brutal.

[LW]

No, Communism is a wonderful theory with the flaw that it cannot be put into practice.

The "scientific" Marxist-Leninist theory was that there was an inevitable progression of societies: from primitive to slave-owner societies, from there first to feudalism, then to capitalism, then socialism, and finally communism. The armed revolution was necessary for taking the step from capitalism to socialism. Then, the socialism would evolve to communism by itself.

Not a single of those countries that were called "communist" did actually claim that they had reached communism. Instead, they described themselves as socialist and that communism was coming Real Soon Now.

[Dcdrac]

The Fletcher Memorial Home (Waters)

Take all your overgrown infants away somewhere
And build them a home, a little place of their own.
The Fletcher Memorial
Home for Incurable Tyrants and Kings.

And they can appear to themselves every day
On closed circuit T.V.
To make sure they're still real.
It's the only connection they feel.
"Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, Reagan and Haig,
Mr. Begin and friend, Mrs. Thatcher, and Paisly,
"Hello Maggie!"
Mr. Brezhnev and party.
"Scusi dov'è il bar?"
The ghost of McCarthy,
The memories of Nixon.
"Who's the bald chap?"
"Good-bye!"
And now, adding colour, a group of anonymous latin-
American meat packing glitterati.

Did they expect us to treat them with any respect?
They can polish their medals and sharpen their
Smiles, and amuse themselves playing games for awhile.
Boom boom, bang bang, lie down you're dead.

Safe in the permanent gaze of a cold glass eye
With their favorite toys
They'll be good girls and boys
In the Fletcher Memorial Home for colonial
Wasters of life and limb.

Is everyone in?
Are you having a nice time?
Now the final solution can be applied.

[chriswl]

No, Communism is a wonderful theory with the flaw that it cannot be put into practice.
I think communism is a horrible theory, whether or not it can be put into practice.

"From each according to his means to each according to his needs" is a blueprint for totalitarianism. I could say I "need" a big house and a fast car and I only have the "means" to work part time in an undemanding job, because I'm just not really good at disciplining myself to work hard. But that's not what Marx envisaged. Clearly I'm not going to be allowed to get away with that. There needs to be an authority that judges what my means are (and imposes production quotas on me that I'd better meet) and decides what it thinks are my needs (as opposed to my desires, which are unimportant).

The Soviet Union encapsulated that philosophy perfectly. Capitalism, for all it's faults, does not presume to know what people need better than they do themselves.

[boojum]

Oh, lordy. There is an old short story. God and the devil (?) take turns replaying history and changing one thing. One time Jesus dies young. Another time Pasteur dies or fails to make his discovery for other reasons. Anyone remember the author?

CT

I believe you're thinking of "The Game of Blood and Dust" by Roger Zelazny. In it two aliens play a game with human history. Each of them gets to engineer changes in the deaths of three figures from human history, then the players observe the result. I don't know where else it appears, but I have it here in _The Best of Galaxy Volume IV_ (James Baen, ed.).

(edited for spelling)

[delphi_ote]

Anyone got a P.T.M. (posts till meltdown) pool going yet on this guy?
Suspended. I called it. Go me. :D

[Beerina]

Have you ever read Karl Marx, or just bought in to the Reagan-era misrepresentations of him?

I respect no philosophy that doesn't live and let live. We all reject that notion in religion, why not politics?

[Beerina]

Christopher Columbus. Doing so would have delayed (renewed) European contact with the Amricas an unknown amount of time, but at that time, the Aztecs would have been either overthrown, or stabilized. They happened to be in a particuarly vulnerable position when they were conquered. If first contact had happened more graudally, it's possible ([ure speculation) that there would have been more of a delay between the spread of infection Old World diseases and the successive conquests. Maybe they would have stood a chance of regrouping and repopulating while the Europeans fought over Catholocism/Protestantism, and other squabbles.

Then Germany and Japan win WWII because there's no America to stand against them.

Or the Soviet Union does.

In either case, the North and South Americans get screwed over and Europeans move in.

[ImaginalDisc]

Then Germany and Japan win WWII because there's no America to stand against them.

Or the Soviet Union does.

In either case, the North and South Americans get screwed over and Europeans move in.

What? It would probably have indirectly prevented WWII, or at least dramatically changed the shape of the world piror to that.

[Beerina]

I think Hitler is the easiest to argue. No Hitler, no Nazi Germany, no WWII, no Holocaust, no motivation to build the atomic bomb, no arms race, no cold war, no Israel-Palestine conflict... all of these probably oversimplify a lot of circumstances (like what would've happened with Japan and how Germany might have resolved its economic crises without war) but certainly the world would be a very different (and I think better) place.

Maybe Lenin. No Lenin, maybe Russia turns fully democratic like most other European nations. Democratic Russia, Germany has nowhere to go with them on the other side from the beginning, no WWII, no cold war, no China going communist. Yeah, maybe him or Marx would have been a magnificent choice. Communism is just the latest in a long line of promises of wonders to the populace as a whole...if you'll just authorize me the power to konk the heads of those with the money, I'll make your lives better...I promise!

[delphi_ote]

What? It would probably have indirectly prevented WWII, or at least dramatically changed the shape of the world piror to that.
Yea. I think it's damn hard to imagine what the world would be like in the 20th Century if history were changed so far back. My head hurts even thinking about it.

[Blondin]

Teddy Thomas (the kid who used to beat me up from grades 3 to 6).

[delphi_ote]

Me.

Because then I couldn't wish I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen...

The space-time continuum would cry harder than a woo getting the smack down from Dr. A and Rolfe.

[Terry]

Me.


Copycat!

Oh no, wait, I said me, you said delphi_ote. My mistake.

[delphi_ote]

Copycat!

Oh no, wait, I said me, you said delphi_ote. My mistake.
Yea, and I wanted to destroy the universe. You were just being apathetic! :D

[ImaginalDisc]

Me.

Because then I couldn't wish I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen, and I would exist, but then I'd wish I didn't exist, which would mean I didn't exist, which would mean I couldn't wish that I didn't exist, so it wouldn't happen...

The space-time continuum would cry harder than a woo getting the smack down from Dr. A and Rolfe.

I'm having an anyeurism, and it's all your fault.

[Beerina]

Yea. I think it's damn hard to imagine what the world would be like in the 20th Century if history were changed so far back. My head hurts even thinking about it.

Meh, "in reality", one single subatomic particle slightly out of alignment will cause some atom to deviate mildly. Eventually this percolates up into subtle air differences. Soon the weather is different, and people are copulating at differrent times, different sperm is impregnating females, and entirely different people are born. The "butterfly" effect is actually much tinier than that.

In fact, just a magical window into the past would invoke such a history-altering scenario if it caught one single photon (assuming the photon wasn't headed out to deep space with absolutely no further interaction with the earth. Even hitting the moon would reflect back on the earth and start the ball rolling to a different history.)

And we won't even get into the thought experiment wherein "running" the universe a second time generates truly different random occurences in quantum phenomenon. In which case backing up time then moving it forward again might (almost certainly, actually) generate different histories.

[shemp]

Joe Besser

[Dr Adequate]

If Newton hadn't discovered calculus ... ... then we'd credit Leibnitz for discovering it instead.

[delphi_ote]

... then we'd credit Leibnitz for discovering it instead.
Nice! :D

[sphenisc]

... then we'd credit Leibnitz for discovering it instead.

Was that your subtle attempt at wiping me out of history, or did you just fail to spot post #49? :)

[Mid]

Paul the apostle

Have to say that I agree on this one

[Nancarrow]

It would have to be my grandfather. But *only* if it was me that did the removing.

Of course, if I tried to do it, then when I was halfway there, I'd still have to get 3/4 of the way there, and once I'd reached that point, I'd have to get to the 7/8 mark, and so on, so it'd never happen. Either that, or God would throw a rock at me, that he'd made, but was too heavy for him to lift.

Or Shroedinger's Cat would bite me.

ETA: oh yeah, Paul the Apostle thirded. Jesus was just a hippy preacher type such as you find anywhere these days, weren't no good without his literary agent.

[Kopji]

Noah :rolleyes:

I agree with the sentiment already expressed that it might not matter much who was removed. The great figures of history are more like surfers rather than forces that drive the waves. Islands that are merely the visible part of a larger undersea mountain. Tips of icebergs.

If we took away one great hero or villain, another would rise to take their place.

[Dr Adequate]

Well, I think I have to go for the guy with the most victims ...

Sir Walter Raleigh.

[H3LL]

That first replicating molecule. I'm curious if it had been another one, how different life would have been.


Does it count as a who?
.

[H3LL]

Well, I think I have to go for the guy with the most victims ...

Sir Walter Raleigh.

What victims?

BTW...'Got a light?


.

[Piscivore]

Akhenaten.

The munderscorer that invented monotheism in the first place.

[Blue Monk]

Akhenaten.

The munderscorer that invented monotheism in the first place.

I had a similar thought.

How about Abraham?

Nip that Jewish/Christian/Muslim thing in the bud.

[Almo]

Removing Oppenhiemer wouldn't accomplish a thing. There was a large culture in Los Alamos assembled to make the bomb happen. It was going to happen, one way or another. You couldn't stop people from tapping the ungodly power of the atom.

Now, for whom I would remove... Lemme think a sec.

. . . . .

. . . . .

Hmm that's a tough one. I'm trying to think of someone whose absence would result in a real change. As an example, Anti-Semitism was running high in Germany before Hitler arrived, and eugenics was gaining popularity. Someone else may have come up with similarly nasty things.

. . . . .

Okay, he's not a mass-murderer or anything, but I think a lot of trouble for a lot of people would simply go away if he were missing:

L Ron Hubbard.

We can live without his pulp sci fi, and I doubt Scientology would have arisen without him. Scientology is really dangerous, in my opinion. They have too much money and too many desires to control society to not worry about them.

[Kopji]

One thing nice about a philosophy forum is we can philosophize. :D

'Large personalities' do not exist in a cultural vacuum but often create reactions (I am not going to use the word 'echoes') within our culture and society. Hitler's early 'work' practiced and perfected on the mentally ill what he would do later to Jews and other 'undesirables'. Human ovens and his skill in leaving few tracks behind were perfected in places like Tiergartenstrasse 4.

At the core of Scientology is a teaching that there is no such thing as mental illness, that all psychology is a fraud, and 'treating' mental illness should be the sole domain of religion. I see the rise of Hubbard as kind of a backlash against Hitler and shortcomings of modern psychology.

The danger to the mentally ill is that of once again being caught in the battleground of flawed extremes.

[Angus McPresley]

There are probably more noble answers, but...

Mark David Chapman.

[kedo1981]

I hate chiming in on page three; I always doubt that anyone reads it and I’m so in need of the attention; oh well.
I’d whack Napoleon; he is the root cause of a large majority of the problems in European history for last 175 or so years.
His wars of conquest sunk the European economy, brought about German militarism, the Mafia was born as a terrorist organization to fight the French invaders, looted the historic treasures of the near east, and generally made the French act like A-holes.

[Jorghnassen]

No more mayonnaise, canned food, or Rosetta stone for you!

OK, I submit Jehanne Darc or Charles Martel. In the first case, no more US plus we'd all be speaking French, in the second, we'd all be Muslims...

/more intellectual masturbation with historical "what if?"'s

[brettDbass]

Whoever it was that murdered Jimi Hendrix.

[Dcdrac]

Whoever it was that murdered Jimi Hendrix.

I thought it was a sandwhich that took him off.

[Nyarlathotep]

I thought it was a sandwhich that took him off.


That's what they want you to think.

[delphi_ote]

That's what they want you to think.
"They" meaning the Globalists (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1515360#post1515360), right?

[Nyarlathotep]

"They" meaning the Globalists (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1515360#post1515360), right?


Not really. I meant the squirrels. They stay in the trees outside my house all night keeping me awake with their incessant political rallies. They are probably the ones controlling the Globalists. Sometimes, they sneak onto my house and tamper with my anti-paranoia medication. I'm onto their tricks....

[DSE]

Whoever it was that murdered Jimi Hendrix.
Jimi Hendrix is dead!?

[clarsct]

A Little Late...but..

Jesus Christ.

Just to see if he really existed.

[David Swidler]

I went back in time and eliminated Horgarth the Unpleasant from English history.

He was a short, stocky, rather gruff fellow with a knack for being in the right place at the right time on the battlefield. Woulda saved Harald's head at Hastings if I'd a not gone there and waylaid his horse.

[CapelDodger]

Paul the apostle
Without whom it's "Pontius who?" and no Christianity for Constantine to adopt as a state religion.

Not that I've made my mind up. Hitler's a good bet - with Hitler and without Stalin, where would we be?

[CapelDodger]

Not really. I meant the squirrels. They stay in the trees outside my house all night keeping me awake with their incessant political rallies. They are probably the ones controlling the Globalists.
That's what the cats want you to think. :mad:

[Giz]

Jesus, on the 3rd day. Just for the look on his face.

[gnome]

I have one historic event I'd like to change... the Cold War... possibly the largest waste of resources humankind has ever known--and responsible for horrifying moral compromises as well. And yet... something makes me hesitate. Sometimes I think of it as a half century of learning how to engage in conflict without escalating to oblivion. But a VERY expensive lesson.

[Ceritus]

If Adam and Eve were true I'd like to delete Adam.

[Giz]

I have one historic event I'd like to change... the Cold War... possibly the largest waste of resources humankind has ever known--and responsible for horrifying moral compromises as well. And yet... something makes me hesitate. Sometimes I think of it as a half century of learning how to engage in conflict without escalating to oblivion. But a VERY expensive lesson.

Why do you think the Cold War was more of a waste than WW2?

[Piggy]

Karl Rove.

Because I'm a selfish b*****d who really hates to see his own country in his own time go down the toilet because of the immoral, sleazy, illegal tactics of a s**t-slinging thug like Rove.

Rove has done more than anyone in the last 3 generations to scare good people out of public service and drive politics to the lowest common denominator. He cares about nothing but power, no matter who suffers, no matter who is ruined, no matter whose kids die.

He is the poster child for abortion!

[gnome]

Why do you think the Cold War was more of a waste than WW2?

Now that you mention it, I'm not sure it was... unless you're counting billions, which seems a bit shallow. You might argue that almost the entire 20th century was spent in massive waste on unnecessary violence.

[CapelDodger]

Now that you mention it, I'm not sure it was... unless you're counting billions, which seems a bit shallow. You might argue that almost the entire 20th century was spent in massive waste on unnecessary violence.
In proportional terms the Mongol onslaught of the 13thCE was probably the most damaging event in history. So I'll plump for Genghis Khan. He demonstrated a unique ability to weld the steppes peoples together and wield that weapon in pursuit of megalomaniac ambitions. Proportionally, he was more powerful and destructive than Hitler or Napoleon, other megalomaniacs.

[KingMerv00]

I'd take the obvious choice of Hitler but so many here seem to think that another moron would have taken his place. Instead, I'll pick someone who was solely responsible for terrible atrocities.

Josef Mengele.

So morally disfunctional I barely classify him as human. A monster by any standard. To top it all off, he was a woo.

Ugh, I want to take a shower just thinking about that scumbag.

[CapelDodger]

I'd take the obvious choice of Hitler but so many here seem to think that another moron would have taken his place.
I don't think that's the case. Hitler had peculiar rhetorical and political abilities, and also had particularly egregious personality disorders. Nobody else in the contemporary German right comes close, IMO.

[delphi_ote]

I don't think that's the case. Hitler had peculiar rhetorical and political abilities, and also had particularly egregious personality disorders. Nobody else in the contemporary German right comes close, IMO.
I agree with you there. Hitler was the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Piggy]

Adam. Or whoever the first human was. One case of SIDS could have saved us all a lot of grief.

[CapelDodger]

I agree with you there. Hitler was the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time.
So many wrongs do make an Extreme Right.

I just couldn't let that go by ...

[Euromutt]

I'm with slingblade and Almo in choosing L. Ron Hubbard, third-rate (at best) sci-fi writer turned founder of one of the more vile and well funded cults currently around.

I admit it, I'm thinking fairly short-term historically, but with a limited scope, there are way fewer imponderables. Also, I'll admit that I can think of many ways in which my own lot could be a lot worse, and I'd prefer to avoid any of those, even if doing so might have saved a few thousand, or even many thousands of lives in the course of history. Because the operative word is might. I'm not a whole-hearted determinist, in that I think I think individuals can make a difference in the "right" place at the "right" time, but I think that the circumstances do create an opportunity which could be filled by not just that particular person.

I can see the case for removing Saul/Paul or Constantine from history, but not without removing Mohammed as well. Otherwise, the Battle of Poitiers might have ended as a muslim victory (if a battle had taken place at all), and I'd be the circumcised descendant of vanquished Franks converted to Islam and likely turned Shi'ite wihtin a few generations out of discontent with the Arab primacy within Islam.

Given the amount of nautical exploration around 1500, I find it hard to imagine that if Columbus hadn't stumbled upon America, nobody would have. It wouldn't have happened exactly the same way, but a very similar process would have taken place, I think.

With regards to Hitler, I recommend reading Stephen Fry's novel Making History, in which a history grad manages to remove Hitler from history, and discovers he's only made it worse. The circumstances of Germany's losing the first world war set the stage for something like Nazism, and even if the guy who rose to prominence hadn't been as charismatic as Hitler, he might actually have been militarily competent (or at least smart enough to not try to micromanage the armed forces).

I'm sure that if L. Ron hadn't been around, the present adherents of Scientology would have found some other dumb cult to latch onto. But it seems plausible to me that the cult or cults in question would likely have been less nasty (Newage doesn't persecute apostates, to the best of my knowledge), or imploded long ago (how many members do the People's Temple, the Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate have these days?).

[Beerina]

A Little Late...but..

Jesus Christ.

Just to see if he really existed.

Does the god Yahweh count as a person? If I could remove Him such that humanity still existed, it would be wonderful since then the vast majority of people who ever lived would not end up being hideously tortured for all eternity. Indeed, if I could slip in there as a replacement god, I'd cure all diseases, end the need for viagra, no obesity (unless you wanted it), etc. etc. etc.

Now why wouldn't that be an infinitely (literally) more desirable situation?

[Beerina]

Adam. Or whoever the first human was. One case of SIDS could have saved us all a lot of grief.

As he was formed fully adult, I don't think SIDS would quite apply. Maybe SFFOOCGDS. Sudden Fully Formed Out Of Clay Guy Death Syndrome. But then Yahweh'd have to investigate, and he'd follow the chain of wish back to you and you'd be in for it then. Then he'd get mad at you even though he knew it was all gonna happen anyway. Yahweh, like the law, "is a ass". :boggled:

[LotusMegami]

I've been looking up stuff about the Mongols for a story, and I have to agree about Kublai Khan. Without the Mongol invasion, the Black Death might also have not spread. Some historians believe that the Mongols spread a disease that had adapted to. For them it was not deadly, but the people they conquered had no resistance.

[c4ts]

I'd remove:

Abraham Lincoln
The First Emperor of China
Ibn Saud
William the Conqueror
Thomas Edison
Augustus Caesar
Otto von Bismark
Martin Luther
Winston Churchill


Welcome to CRAZY HISTORY LAND!

[shalomsteph]

How long have you had your white supremacist membership? Why do you beat your wife? Have you stopped molesting children?



Take your idiotic strawmen and adhoms elsewhere. (And I don't even like GWB.)

Thank you. I can't stand Bush either, but I can't stand most idiots, this guy included.

[CapelDodger]

I'd remove:

Abraham Lincoln
The First Emperor of China
Ibn Saud
William the Conqueror
Thomas Edison
Augustus Caesar
Otto von Bismark
Martin Luther
Winston Churchill


Welcome to CRAZY HISTORY LAND!
It would make an interesting experiment to try that out on an alternate universe and compare results. Interesting, but devastatingly hard to interpret. It would be more informative to limit the parameters. It's not as if there's a shortage of alternate universes.

"First" Chinese Emperor means no Chinese Emperor ever, but you knew that. Thomas Edison, Bill Gates, it was all gonna happen anyway. Augustus, same thing. The principle had been established. Ibn Saud, well, there's never been a shortage of Sauds and the Husseinis were on a medium-term loser at best. Luther? Good PR, it was happening anyway.

The others are more intriguing.

[Morrigan]

The Emperor Constantine. He was the one that made Christianity the official religion of Rome, thus promulgating it throughout Europe. Which of course caused it to spread throughout the Americas centuries later.
I'll vote for that, or Paul. Now we'd all be descended from our glorious pagan ancestors instead. Bah!

[Soapy Sam]

Nobody.

Things might be very much worse.

Besides, if you go back too far, the chances of his being an ancestor get pretty high. These grandfather paradox loops can be nasty.

But I'd quite like to go back thirty years and talk Tony Blair into becoming a rock star.