Where to find a cannibal

[Strider1974]

I recently went to a course on the subject of cannibalism and just thought I would share some of what I learnt. (weasydney.nsw.edu.au/default2.htm)

1/ Funerary cannibalism was reasonably widespread. We were shown examples from South America, the Caribbean and the South Pacific. Not to mention the symbolic cannibalism performed by Christians ie Mass (Especially the Catholics who believe in the miracle of transubstantiation)
2/ Recent genetic studies have shown that Funerary cannibalism may have been very widespread in the past re (abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s938896.htm)
3/ Survival Cannibalism is only practiced by Western Cultures. eg Have you ever heard of cannibalism in Africa during the famines of the last 30 years?
In fact a lot of primitive cultures are convinced that the western cultures are the cannibals. Kirk Hoffman our tutor for the session gave a great example. Recently Americans have been adopting babies from Guatemala and one particular Indian group made the startling claim that the American couples were taking the babies to eat. It turns out that several hundred years ago a Spanish expedition broke down in the area and the Spanish thinking themselves alone and without hope resorted to Survival Cannibalism to live. Of course they weren't alone, the local Indians were watching and they were horrified at what occurred. In fact the story became part of their oral tradition and so when 'whites' started turning up wanting their babies, they could think of only one reason why - we eat people. In another example we were shown pictures from the Volga in 1921 where due to famine and a particularly cold winter 5 million people died and Survival Cannibalism was very common (We were shown pictures of ice boxes full of human body parts.)
4/ In the West we have used Cannibalism in medicine. Mummy was a medieval medicine originally made from crushed Egyptian Mummies (this is where the word comes from) and when these became too expensive morgues starting drying and selling corpses for this use. Also people would go to executions to get fresh blood etc for cures. "Gordon-Grube wrote. "It was the prerogative of executioners to sell the blood of decapitated criminals." Warm blood was thought especially helpful for epilepsy..." (whyfiles.org/164cannibal/5.html)

It seems that if want to find a cannibal look to your friends first, especially if they believe in the miracle of transubstantiation

PS - I cannot post links so I have removed the www to get them to post

[Angus McPresley]

eg Have you ever heard of cannibalism in Africa during the famines of the last 30 years?


Well, I hadn't, but the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism) mentions it occurring in Liberia in the mid-1980s. The article isn't clear as to whether it was famine-related though.

Interesting post, though.

[richardm]

It seems that if want to find a cannibal look to your friends first, especially if they believe in the miracle of transubstantiation

I'm not sure what the position is on transubstantiation these days. I thought it was only Catholics who subscribed to the idea, but in the last few years the Vatican has put out statements to the effect that teetotal priests can use grape juice instead of wine in the mass. Obviously if transubstantiation is genuinely subscribed to then the starting material should be irrelevant. Anyway.

Interesting stuff about the survival cannibals, particularly the bit about Famine-stricken Africans not turning to it. Did your course give any particular insights into why that might be? I'm fairly sure (without looking it up) that Zulus would eat body parts of enemies in order to gain powers, so it's not a prohibition on eating humans per se.

Edited to add : and clearly that's still a popular choice among some Africans. Thanks, Angus.

[Strider1974]

Interesting stuff about the survival cannibals, particularly the bit about Famine-stricken Africans not turning to it. Did your course give any particular insights into why that might be? I'm fairly sure (without looking it up) that Zulus would eat body parts of enemies in order to gain powers, so it's not a prohibition on eating humans per se..


We were told that Survival Cannibalism is considered barbaric and anyone who practiced it would be ostracised. So it is a social taboo.

[Zep]

Have you run across the New Guinea disease of kuru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_epidemic) yet?

[LW]

3/ Survival Cannibalism is only practiced by Western Cultures.

Don't forget Anasazis (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/09/000913204822.htm).

[Bikewer]

Marvin Harris, the anthropologist, wrote a fun little book called "Good To Eat" in which he examined all sorts of odd food-related tidbits from all over the world.

Pig hate, cow love, that sort of thing.

He devoted a chapter to cannibalism, and points out that it was generally practiced among the various South American peoples like the Aztek and the Maya. Partly sacrifice and partly protein source, according to him, though the book I recently read, "1491", indicates that the various SA indians had much better food production than was previously thought.

[Strider1974]

Have you run across the New Guinea disease of kuru yet?


The genetic studies I mentioned before are based on the New Guinea disease kuru.
It seems that a number of the locals involved in the funerary cannibalism did not develop the disesase. Studies showed that they have a genetic mutation that prevents them from developing the disease. The researchers then tested people from around the world and found that this mutation is reasonably common in many different societies which they took to mean that in the past, funerary cannibalism was very widespread.

"Dr Mike Alpers: So I think we have very good evidence, that the of all modern humans had these similar mortuary practices in the past and that endo-cannibalism was something that was part of human beings since time immemorial. "
abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s938896.htm

[casebro]

One Professor I talked to once mentioned that you only find canibalism where the locals had no large animal source for protein. Like the Aztecs, who had domestic dogs for protein, like the Chiuahua. Or some Islanders, who would gain the strength of the vanquished enemy's soul by eating their protein. So, in Africa, with the locals migrating with the herds, no cannibalism would be required.

[Strider1974]

One Professor I talked to once mentioned that you only find canibalism where the locals had no large animal source for protein. Like the Aztecs, who had domestic dogs for protein, like the Chiuahua. Or some Islanders, who would gain the strength of the vanquished enemy's soul by eating their protein. So, in Africa, with the locals migrating with the herds, no cannibalism would be required.


Interesting theory, I hadn't of that, but now you mention it cannibalism does seem to be more prevalent in areas where large game animals are not available.
The problem with this theory is that is seems that every culture has a form of cannibalism even if that is only for survival.

[Oolon Colluphid]

Did you hear about the cannibal who had indigestion? He ate someone who disagreed with him! Booo! lol

[aggle-rithm]

During the siege of Leningrad during WWII, city authorities had two major problems: One, how to address widespread starvation, and two, how to get rid of the thousands of bodies of those who had already starved or frozen to death.

Maybe I'm being unrealistic, but it seemed like those two problems would sort of cancel each other out....

[Oolon Colluphid]

I used to have the dubious pleasure of traversing Donner pass in California, and I couldn't imagine trying to do it 160 yrs ago with no modern equipment. However, not everyone who survived the Donner party ordeal had felt it necessary to resort to cannibalism.

http://www.vw.vccs.edu/vwhansd/HIS121/Donner.html

[Strider1974]

I used to have the dubious pleasure of traversing Donner pass in California, and I couldn't imagine trying to do it 160 yrs ago with no modern equipment. However, not everyone who survived the Donner party ordeal had felt it necessary to resort to cannibalism.

Was this because the ones that did resort to cannibalism freed up enough food for those who didn't have the stomach for it :D

[AK-Dave]

When I was in Papua New Guinea, the locals used to joke that there were no more cannibals left on the island. How can they be sure? The authorities killed and ate the last ones in the 60's.

[Soapy Sam]

Two cannibals run away to join the circus.

That night, they're sitting in the big top, eating a clown, when one of them says- "Does this taste funny to you?"

[Zep]

Did you hear about the cannibal who passed his brother in the jungle?










I'll see myself out...

[anor277]

Just back on topic, there is a non-fiction work from the 70's(?) entitled The Man Eating Myth, which held that cannibalism was never an established cultural tradition in any society. While cannibalism did occur, its incidence was peculiarly isolated, i.e. survivors in a plane crash/sea wreck, and that the only cannibals in New Guinea, for instance, were the Japanese soldiers of the second world war.


This work predates much of the anthropological work done on the Anasazi, a North American society in which cannibalism did seem to occur on a regular basis. I don't know the name of the author of the work above, but I believe he commented on the Anasazi.

[UrsulaV]

I was under the impression that the whole protein-source idea went out awhile ago--granted, my last anthropology class was closing in on a decade ago, so my memory may be badly flawed, but I sort of recall it being treated less than seriously.

Practically, I'm no nutritionist, but I dunno how it'd work. If you aren't getting enough protein to survive, if your only meat source is an inefficient omnivore that takes an incredibly long time to mature, is stringy and gives you all its diseases, and worst of all, requires exactly as much protein as you do in order to survive...well, seems like a lousy food animal, all around.

And, at the risk of getting mired down in verbage, if there's not enough protein to feed humans, so they have to eat humans, where are the humans that are getting eaten getting their protein from? It takes a huge breeding population of prey to support a single predator. But if humans are having to eat other humans, instead of a nice food pyramid, you've got a kind of wobbly food tower that's going to fall over pretty quick.

I can see cannibalism regularly occurring for all kinds of reasons, but being required to provide adequate nutrition, as if the entire civilization was some kind of Donner party, I'm skeptical of.

[Strider1974]

[QUOTE=anor277;1517205]Just back on topic, there is a non-fiction work from the 70's(?) entitled The Man Eating Myth, which held that cannibalism was never an established cultural tradition in any society. While cannibalism did occur, its incidence was peculiarly isolated, i.e. survivors in a plane crash/sea wreck, and that the only cannibals in New Guinea, for instance, were the Japanese soldiers of the second world war.


The tutor for the course Kirk Huffman assured us that cannibalism occurred in the South Pacific and gave very specific examples from Vanuatu where he is the director of Vanuatu's national cultural museum.

[supercorgi]

Don't forget Anasazis (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/09/000913204822.htm).
Thanks for that link. I did a study on the Anasazi material about 12 years ago for grad school and at that point the evidence wasn't very convincing.

[supercorgi]

Just back on topic, there is a non-fiction work from the 70's(?) entitled The Man Eating Myth, which held that cannibalism was never an established cultural tradition in any society. While cannibalism did occur, its incidence was peculiarly isolated, i.e. survivors in a plane crash/sea wreck, and that the only cannibals in New Guinea, for instance, were the Japanese soldiers of the second world war.


This work predates much of the anthropological work done on the Anasazi, a North American society in which cannibalism did seem to occur on a regular basis. I don't know the name of the author of the work above, but I believe he commented on the Anasazi.

I read that book many years ago when I was writing a paper examining evidence for cannibalism in certain parts of the archaeological record. It was an interesting book with some good ideas, but I think the author, William Arens, overstated his premise. He didn't dispute that ritual cannibalism was a reality in many societies. What he did dispute was the widespread nature of alimentary cannibalism in non-survival situations. His premise was that when societies or different groups and cultures come into contact that there is usually much fear and distrust, so the tendency is for each group to vilify the other by attributing heinous behaviour, such as cannibalism, to the other group.

[Jorghnassen]

Just find someone you'd think would be tasty with some fava beans and a nice chianti...

[Steve]

CannibalsRUs?
cannibals.com?


Sorry. I'll be leaving now.......

[Just thinking]

I'm going to jump out here and say that this appears (from what you have presented) to be some sort of political bashing of Western Culture ... in this case to try and show how barbaric we are by practicing cannabalism -- when in fact we obviously don't.

... Not to mention the symbolic cannibalism performed by Christians ie Mass (Especially the Catholics who believe in the miracle of transubstantiation)

First off ... symbolic anything is not the thing itself. A symbol of an airplane does not fly, only the airplane flies. This is a stretch to show something that simply isn't there. I'm a atheist and I can see that the symbolic references (http://members.aol.com/johnprh/eucharist.html) of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ is a way to become one with Christ. (BTW-- they actually eat bread and drink wine.) If anyone did in fact do such a thing as eating flesh or drinking blood it was not in accordance with the religion, but of some individual nutcases.

2/ Recent genetic studies have shown that Funerary cannibalism may have been very widespread in the past re (abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s938896.htm)

Ahh ... aren't these folks already dead? Whenever I hear the word cannabalism I think of one actually killing someone for the sole purpose of devouring them for some unnecessary ritual. Here (http://www.freewebcentral.com/hidden/framedictionaries.htm) we see ... "the usually ritualistic eating of human flesh by a human being".

3/ Survival Cannibalism is only practiced by Western Cultures. eg Have you ever heard of cannibalism in Africa during the famines of the last 30 years?

This behavior (IMHO) defines survival as the goal and cannabalism as the means. To place this at the same level as straightforward ritualistic cannabalism is ludicrous. Perhaps it is the advanced western logic that better understands the action in a given scenario (airplane crash in snowy mountains) that results in such?

It seems that if want to find a cannibal look to your friends first, especially if they believe in the miracle of transubstantiation

Expecting one to believe that is what I would call a miracle.

[LW]

I just remembered the stories about the nastiest form of survival cannibalism that I have read about.

During the heyday of the Soviet Gulag archipelago under Stalin's rule the prisoners were divided into two classes: criminal and political. The elite of labor camps were the professional criminals, and in many cases they were the de-facto rulers. Most of the professional criminals had sentences that were decades long and with no real hope of ever gaining freedom again and even had absolutely no desire to reintegrate in the Soviet society. The best that they could hope was that they could escape and spend a couple of months or even years in freedom before being recaptured and sent back to the camps.

One of the greatest problems about escaping from the most isolated camps was that it could be many weeks' journey to nearest city that was big enough that the criminals could hide among the underworld. And it just wasn't feasible to obtain and carry enough food for the journey.

Some of the criminals solved the problem by recruiting an extra member to the escape group, preferably one who worked in the camp kitchen and thus was in better health than the average prisoner. They would escape together and start walking through the woods. When the food run out, they would kill and butcher the extra member and eat him.

Now, I don't know if any of these cases have been established beyond reasonable doubt. There was at least one court case that resulted in conviction of the cannibals but given that the incidents happened during Stalin's rule, the standards of proof were rather relaxed compared with Western judicical procedures. But they hold an established position in Gulag folklore and the inmates believed that a number of them had happened, and can name time, place, and identities of prisoners suspected of doing it.

[aggle-rithm]

I just remembered the stories about the nastiest form of survival cannibalism that I have read about.

During the heyday of the Soviet Gulag archipelago under Stalin's rule the prisoners were divided into two classes: criminal and political. The elite of labor camps were the professional criminals, and in many cases they were the de-facto rulers. Most of the professional criminals had sentences that were decades long and with no real hope of ever gaining freedom again and even had absolutely no desire to reintegrate in the Soviet society. The best that they could hope was that they could escape and spend a couple of months or even years in freedom before being recaptured and sent back to the camps.

One of the greatest problems about escaping from the most isolated camps was that it could be many weeks' journey to nearest city that was big enough that the criminals could hide among the underworld. And it just wasn't feasible to obtain and carry enough food for the journey.

Some of the criminals solved the problem by recruiting an extra member to the escape group, preferably one who worked in the camp kitchen and thus was in better health than the average prisoner. They would escape together and start walking through the woods. When the food run out, they would kill and butcher the extra member and eat him.

Now, I don't know if any of these cases have been established beyond reasonable doubt. There was at least one court case that resulted in conviction of the cannibals but given that the incidents happened during Stalin's rule, the standards of proof were rather relaxed compared with Western judicical procedures. But they hold an established position in Gulag folklore and the inmates believed that a number of them had happened, and can name time, place, and identities of prisoners suspected of doing it.

Likewise, during the Leningrad siege, although there were plenty of frozen dead bodies around, a small group of criminals acquired a taste for human flesh and preferred theirs fresh. In fact, the scrawny, emaciated locals weren't good enough for them; they would instead ambush soldiers on leave.

Of course, this too is based on anecdotal evidence and is difficult to verify.

[Strider1974]

I'm going to jump out here and say that this appears (from what you have presented) to be some sort of political bashing of Western Culture ... in this case to try and show how barbaric we are by practicing cannabalism -- when in fact we obviously don't.

Just Thinking - For centuries the Western Culture (of which I am a member) has denigrated the less technolgically advanced cultures and one of the major accusations has been that of cannibalism. I found it interesting to discover that many of these cultures actually think we are the cannibals.
In the Western Culture we believe that it is acceptable to eat a deceased human in an extreme survival situation. I personally find this natural, the survival instinct is very strong, but I was surprised to learn that many other cultures do not feel the same way or else we would have seen widespread use of survival cannibalism during the famines of the last 30 years.

First off ... symbolic anything is not the thing itself. A symbol of an airplane does not fly, only the airplane flies. This is a stretch to show something that simply isn't there. I'm a atheist and I can see that the symbolic references (http://members.aol.com/johnprh/eucharist.html) of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ is a way to become one with Christ. (BTW-- they actually eat bread and drink wine.) If anyone did in fact do such a thing as eating flesh or drinking blood it was not in accordance with the religion, but of some individual nutcases.

Many traditional cultures believe that eating the flesh of an enemy will give you his powers or that eating the flesh of a relative will keep their soul with the tribe. So while Catholic Mass is symbolic the underlying beliefs are very similiar


This behavior (IMHO) defines survival as the goal and cannabalism as the means. To place this at the same level as straightforward ritualistic cannabalism is ludicrous. Perhaps it is the advanced western logic that better understands the action in a given scenario (airplane crash in snowy mountains) that results in such?

This depends on your point of view. In many traditional cultures the ritualistic cannibalism was considered normal and the survival cannibalism looked on as barbaric.

Expecting one to believe that is what I would call a miracle.

It is scary what people will believe - just look at scientology :eek:

[Just thinking]

Sorry, double post.

[Just thinking]

Just Thinking - For centuries the Western Culture (of which I am a member) has denigrated the less technolgically advanced cultures and one of the major accusations has been that of cannibalism. I found it interesting to discover that many of these cultures actually think we are the cannibals.

But they base it on individual examples (as you have pointed out) not culture, per se -- there is no western culture (let's not include the loonies, OK?) that practices ritualistic cannibalism. Those that believe this are simply mistaken.

In the Western Culture we believe that it is acceptable to eat a deceased human in an extreme survival situation. I personally find this natural, the survival instinct is very strong, but I was surprised to learn that many other cultures do not feel the same way or else we would have seen widespread use of survival cannibalism during the famines of the last 30 years.

This practice would have been futile -- eating those that have starved to death is pointless as they would posses little nutrition; not to mention the potential for disease. Those that died in the plane crash in the snowy mountains were in good health up until death -- they either died from the crash or the cold, not starvation. Plus, this was a one time event -- it wouldn't work over extended periods (eating those that starved to death). This form of comparrison is meaningless. To use such examples and draw parallels makes my case for this being a Western Culture bash.

Many traditional cultures believe that eating the flesh of an enemy will give you his powers or that eating the flesh of a relative will keep their soul with the tribe. So while Catholic Mass is symbolic the underlying beliefs are very similiar.

Believing you can stretch out your arms and fly is quite different from actually doing it. When the Catholics (as a group) actually start eating flesh and drinking blood, let me know.

This depends on your point of view. In many traditional cultures the ritualistic cannibalism was considered normal and the survival cannibalism looked on as barbaric.

So? They can believe whatever they wish -- that doesn't make them right.

It is scary what people will believe - just look at scientology :eek:

Agreed.

[Strider1974]

But they base it on individual examples (as you have pointed out) not culture, per se -- there is no western culture (let's not include the loonies, OK?) that practices ritualistic cannibalism. Those that believe this are simply mistaken.

This practice would have been futile -- eating those that have starved to death is pointless as they would posses little nutrition; not to mention the potential for disease. Those that died in the plane crash in the snowy mountains were in good health up until death -- they either died from the crash or the cold, not starvation. Plus, this was a one time event -- it wouldn't work over extended periods (eating those that starved to death). This form of comparison is meaningless. To use such examples and draw parallels makes my case for this being a Western Culture bash.

You are correct that loonies do not count my discussion. It seems that every culture throws out the occasional psychopathic cannibal and no society I have ever heard of has accepted these monsters. There have been numerous examples of expeditions (eg Spanish in the New World) breaking down and the survivors eating their dead comrades and there is the Volga in Russia during the early 1920's yet I can find nothing similar involving anyone outside the Western (or Asian) culture. I take this to mean that the Western and Asian culture's "practice" of survival cannibalism is not as widespread or as socially acceptable across the world as we assume.
There would be little nutrition in a body that has starved to death (good point) but in an extreme survival situation I personally would do anything short of murder to attempt to stay alive and it seems that from historical accounts this attitude is common in both the Western and Asian cultures. In other cultures, such as the African cultures, despite evidence of widespread famine and war etc I could find no evidence at all of survival cannibalism being used - except in Egypt which has had a strong western influence for thousands of years. (Of course some of it could have been mistaken for other types of cannibalism - this being Africa - but the lack of any evidence of survival cannibalism during extreme hardship does support my hypothesis)

Believing you can stretch out your arms and fly is quite different from actually doing it. When the Catholics (as a group) actually start eating flesh and drinking blood, let me know.

People who believe in the miracle of transubstantiation really believe that during mass the host and the wine are transformed into the actual body and blood of Christ.

At this point I would like to say that this is not Catholic or even Western bashing. I understand that for a lot of Christians the taking a Mass is a Holy event and to have it compared to cannibalism appears deliberately insulting. I merely wish to note that the topic of cannibalism is not as black and white as it seems (excepting the psychopaths) and that if you look, there are similarities between (specifically) funerary cannibalism and Mass. Also that attitudes/morals towards cannibalism are not as universal as we assume, different cultures have different attitudes to the subject.

They can believe whatever they wish -- that doesn't make them right.

Correct, but I am trying to note that what is "right" when it comes to cannibalism is more a matter of culture than we in the west generally assume.
My personal belief is that the Western attitudes towards cannibalism are the correct ones but that I do not have the definitive answer - only the one that is "right" for me and the society I live in.

[kevin]

The genetic studies I mentioned before are based on the New Guinea disease kuru.
It seems that a number of the locals involved in the funerary cannibalism did not develop the disesase. Studies showed that they have a genetic mutation that prevents them from developing the disease. The researchers then tested people from around the world and found that this mutation is reasonably common in many different societies which they took to mean that in the past, funerary cannibalism was very widespread.

This doesn't make sense to me. How do they know this particular gene variation arose as a direct result of cannabilism and didn't have some other source? Say perhaps a reaction to a different prion disease similar to kuru but from a different source?

if the gene is so common world-wide why didn't more of the Fore have it? If they had been practicing cannabilism for such a long time it seems those without the gene would've died off centuries ago. Kuru kills quickly, one of the things that made them realize Kuru itself wasn't a genetic disaese, so if some of the population had a genetic immunity it would seem that gene would've spread like wildfire through a community of cannabilists.

[kevin]

And I've always found this page hilarious!
http://www.eathufu.com/home.asp

[Strider1974]

This doesn't make sense to me. How do they know this particular gene variation arose as a direct result of cannabilism and didn't have some other source? Say perhaps a reaction to a different prion disease similar to kuru but from a different source?

if the gene is so common world-wide why didn't more of the Fore have it? If they had been practicing cannabilism for such a long time it seems those without the gene would've died off centuries ago. Kuru kills quickly, one of the things that made them realize Kuru itself wasn't a genetic disaese, so if some of the population had a genetic immunity it would seem that gene would've spread like wildfire through a community of cannabilists.

I was advised that the "Kuru" was a recent development in this tribe - apparently the disease can spontaneously occur but is normally contained due to fact only cannibalism can spread the disease.
Also the Anthropologist who advised me of the claim (Kirk Huffman) advised that the mutation which protects against "Kuru" only has one use, which is prevent this disease.
Is this definitive - not even close - but it does present an interesting idea to be further investigated.

[Strider1974]

And I've always found this page hilarious!
http://www.eathufu.com/home.asp


And I thought my interest in cannibalism was weird :jaw-dropp

[kevin]

Is this definitive - not even close - but it does present an interesting idea to be further investigated.

Definitely.

BTW, is cannabilism present in any of our "nearby" genetic primate cousins?

[Strider1974]

BTW, is cannabilism present in any of our "nearby" genetic primate cousins?

I have not done much reading on this but a quick google found this link.

"In a comprehensive survey of cannibalism in primates in the wild, Hiraiwa-Hasegawa (1992) observed only five species in this practice: Cercopithecus ascanius (redtail monkey), Papio cynocepharus cynocephalus (baboon), Macaca fuscata (Japanese macaque), Gorilla gorilla beringei (mountain gorilla), and Pan troglodytes (common chimpanzee)"
http://food.families.com/cannibalism-313-316-efc

[Morrigan]

"It's lonely being a cannibal. Tough making friends."

... Obscure? :D

[kevin]

http://food.families.com/cannibalism-313-316-efc

food.families.com? Wow, is that ever an ironic URL.

[Strider1974]

food.families.com? Wow, is that ever an ironic URL.

I missed that completely when I posted.
Good call :D

[ChristineR]

Definitely.

BTW, is cannabilism present in any of our "nearby" genetic primate cousins?

Goodall (I'm pretty sure it was Goodall) described an incident in detail. It was quite odd, involving a all but outcast female and her children stealing a baby from another mother. If it were humans, we'd call it witchcraft.