Quacks on support groups

[wilks]

How do you counter the sudden appearance of quacks on support groups?
They don't contribute when they are ill but jump in with a post as soon as they are 'cured'. One has just appeared on a support group I belong to. She has been 'working on her organs' and using liver and colon cleanses and is now pain free, her complexion is fantastic - oh and all her arthritis and allergies have gone too:eye-poppi

Of course I know this is pure quackery and I would ignore it but other group members want to know more. Do I post a full rebuttal and come over as the argumentative one again? We ARE supposed to be a 'support' group. Is there a middle ground? Can I de-quack her without alienating the rest of the group?

[Blue Wode]

Do I post a full rebuttal and come over as the argumentative one again? We ARE supposed to be a 'support' group. Is there a middle ground? Can I de-quack her without alienating the rest of the group?

This is always an onerous task and one that’s usually met by fierce resistance. The fact that you say “Do I post a full rebuttal and come over as the argumentative one again”, is a good indicator that you are probably on a hiding to nothing. Also, since this lady credits her detoxification regime with producing more than one ‘cure’, it is likely this will just see her further entrenched in her beliefs.

Regards trying to find a middle ground with a rebuttal, I don’t think it’s possible unless the other side is prepared to compromise. However, if you can stay dispassionate, you may manage to sow the seeds of doubt in one or two minds.

This Quackwatch article might be of some help to you:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altmuddled.html

[wilks]

This is always an onerous task and one that’s usually met by fierce resistance. The fact that you say “Do I post a full rebuttal and come over as the argumentative one again”, is a good indicator that you are probably on a hiding to nothing. Also, since this lady credits her detoxification regime with producing more than one ‘cure’, it is likely this will just see her further entrenched in her beliefs.



I'm sure you are right. I know I'm not going to change anything this person believes but it aggravates me when she has an effect on others in the group and they run off to try her therapies and buy her potions.
Yet if I am continually speaking up against quackery I am seen as not being very supportive.

[Capsid]

I have confronted alt med proponents on a support group forum too. I used the methods I learnt here and go through each claim step by step examining the evidence in an objective manner. As in this forum, it often results in the proponent becoming very defensive an abusive which then results in them looking rather silly and in one case they got banned.

[Zendal Darkman]

I take it that the poster we are talking about is a patient of a quack rather than a quack themselves.

The hardest part of being a vocal sceptic is dealing with personal testimony. Sometimes it is possible to get to the truth, such as the person was undergoing (cough) "conventional" treatment at the same time. However most of the time it boils down to something along the lines of
"I was there and you were not, I know what I know, and I KNOW that after ten years of pain, it has gone away".

It’s near imposable to deal with this without appearing EXTREMELY arrogant to others. People don’t tend to listen to arrogant people.

I don’t tend to deal with it head on, instead I will discuss any studies that have been done in the area. I will make the point that if XXXX was even a fraction as effective as what is claimed then the scientists would not be able to move for all the evidence confirming its effectiveness. If possible it is useful to use the study to introduce the concept of placebo. Something along the lines "What should also be noted is that the group that were taking the sugar pills showed a XX% improvement rate. Isn’t that interesting? People on no treatment whatsoever were telling the researchers, and probably there friends and family, that the pain was being reduced or removed!!!!!".

[Blue Wode]

Yet if I am continually speaking up against quackery I am seen as not being very supportive.

It’s great that you’ve been persevering with it. As most of us know here, you are being supportive, it’s just unfortunate that the believers don’t appreciate it.

You, and others, might find these ‘Rules for Debating with Alt-med Believers’ to be of some use. The last rule seems to be the main rule, i.e. it’s unlikely that you’re going to convince them.

http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/altmed_debate_laidler.html

[Capsid]

I have today confronted someone warning of the dangers of artificial sweeteners. I said it#s an urban myth and linked to some sites to support this. The immediate reply was typical;


IT'S A MYTH!! Says who, the FDA!! They did the debunking!?!?! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL. ROTFL!! I haven't laughed this hard in a while. Thanks, I needed that after a long day.

[wilks]

It’s great that you’ve been persevering with it. As most of us know here, you are being supportive, it’s just unfortunate that the believers don’t appreciate it.

You, and others, might find these ‘Rules for Debating with Alt-med Believers’ to be of some use. The last rule seems to be the main rule, i.e. it’s unlikely that you’re going to convince them.



Thanks for that. I have just come across rule [2] In "alt-med", everyone is a victim - of corrupt doctors, polluting corporations, government conspiracies, etc
This is because I politely asked the quack not to tell everyone to stop taking their prescription drugs and take ginger, turmeric and liver cleanses instead. I am now being a codependent apparently, supporting the evil medics who are only in it for the money and am responsible for everyone's liver failure.
I know I can't win against the quack, its just depressing to see how much support she gets.

[wilks]

[QUOTE=,but does it work?;1519972]I take it that the poster we are talking about is a patient of a quack rather than a quack themselves.

I'm not so sure.
That is what she says but we had similar posts from someone of the same christian name a year or so ago. She too had been suddenly 'cured' this time by anodyne therapy and was also very against prescription meds. She wrote in a very similar way and got very upset with me very quickly. I'm almost certain it is the same person. Which makes me believe that she is a quack plugging her latest therapy.
I know, I am beginning to have a nasty suspicious mind.:)

[Capsid]

My current discussion has been brought to a halt by the mod because the other person has started to get abusive (no surprise there). That geocities link provided by Blue Wode is great and I have bookmarked it since my opponent has quoted rule #1. He used the Vioxx case as an argument that the FDA can not be trusted. I counter argued by asking what does Vioxx have to do with artificial sweeteners. Can someone tell me what type of fallacious argument that is? Here's his reply;


What does Vioxx have to do with this?!? I'm discrediting your source, that's what Vioxx has to do with this. There one of the most corrupt organizations in the world. Those 'individuals' are DOCTORS and offer PLENTY of evidence. What evidence do you bring? You haven't yet


In another thread he has asked why people live their lives with blinders on (rules #7 and #8).

[JohnF_73]

She is arguing from a false assumption. ie. That the FDA is flawless. Therefore, if mistakes were made, they were deliberately made.

[JohnF_73]

Personally, I think you should always expose quacks as tactfully as you can, but use as many citations as you can find to back up what you say. And then the most important part, is to keep saying in your posts, "Don't just take my word for it. Look it up yourself."

Most quacks argue from authority and can't be bothered to provide even the thinnest of backup sources.

[wilks]

You know what? Maybe I'm winning here :)
One other person has begun to support me and our quack has posted this

"Ok ladies, you know what? I came on here to offer some alternatives, but
instead I¹m being branded as some sort of sales person. I don¹t need this.
Go ahead and be the co-dependants to all of the potential drug addicts that
our fine medical profession is enabling, so everyone is a lab rat to their personal physicians. And
they will keep giving you drugs, and cut you open, and whatever else they
can think of, because, they just don¹t know.

I did not want to get into any debates, but I can see that no matter what I
say, or offer, I¹m going to be treated as some kind of wacko. So, whatever,
I¹ll erase this from my bookmarks. I know of other support groups elsewhere
that I would not be treated so shabbily."

In my experience that doesn't mean she's gone for good but at least she's rattled :D

[Blue Wode]

You know what? Maybe I'm winning here :)
One other person has begun to support me

- snip -



Good work. There’s bound to be others who will have been persuaded to think more rationally as a result of reading your posts.

This entertaining Edzard Ernst article might be of some further help to anyone trying to understand and counter quackery:

My pseudoscientific nightmare
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/180_11_070604/ern10789_fm.html

His 10th Commandment seems to be particularly pertinent to his current situation with the chiropractic profession and, to a lesser extent, the homeopathy crowd.

[Eos of the Eons]

I think it is quite funny that sellers of quackery through MLM often resort to anecdotes about their own health. How do they prove they were so bad off without their pet quackery? Does she have before and after pictures of her own face?

What is she selling anyway? Oils? Vitamins? Some quircky tonic? The cleanses? Or a combination of all those?

And then start calling you all ignorant lab rats because you don't eat up stupid claims about miracle cures?

Wah, you'll miss her. Good riddance, and good job!

[wilks]

I
What is she selling anyway? Oils? Vitamins? Some quircky tonic? The cleanses? Or a combination of all those?

And then start calling you all ignorant lab rats because you don't eat up stupid claims about miracle cures?

Wah, you'll miss her. Good riddance, and good job!

Sigh, no she's back. I thought that was too easy.
She's recommending liver cleanses, parasite capsules to expel parasties and Oxypowder that not only cleans your bowels but your small intestine too!!!
All this to cure chronic pain and inflammation.

I can debunk colonic irrigation quite happily but does anyone know anything about the parasite expulsion and the Oxypwder?

[Eos of the Eons]

I got a chuckle out of this:

Oxy-Powder works by introducing stabilized nascent oxygen into the bloodstream and intestinal tract. The release of this nascent oxygen is able to liquefy and remove the compacted fecal matter in the large intestine, small intestine, and colon.
http://www.dreddyclinic.com/products/oxypowder-works.htm

Compacted fecal matter eh? And would that have do with chronic pain and inflamation? If you had chronic pain and inflamation of your digestive tract, then a little constipation would be the least of your worries, and you'd need a whole lot more than some weird laxative to ease what would would cause pain and inflamation of your digestive tract.

By taking an oxygen based cleanser every other evening before bed we will feed the friendly bacteria with the oxygen they need to create a stable bowel environment. When taking an oxygen colon cleanser you raise the level of ORS (Oxygen Reactive Species), which causes a stimulation of lymphocytes to produce T-cells. This process results in a beefed-up immune system.


Hmm, now our "good bacteria" needs oxygen? Then what is it doing wallowing around in our intestines? I don't know of any species of bacteria, good or bad, that would stimulate lymphocytes to produce T-cells. T-cells react to unwanted invaders, if they are being "stimulated", then you have something attacking you, or your body feels threatened by something...

Bone marrow contains tissue that produces lymphocytes. B-lymphocytes (B-cells) mature in the bone marrow. T-lymphocytes (T-cells) mature in the thymus gland...
The thymus secretes a hormone, thymosin, that causes pre-T-cells to mature (in the thymus) into T-cells.


Hmm, didn't see that first article mention anything about stimulating the thymus. Cell-mediated immunity is controlled by T cells. Antibody-mediated reactions defend against invading viruses and bacteria. Cell-mediated immunity concerns cells in the body that have been infected by viruses and bacteria, protect against parasites, fungi, and protozoans, and also kill cancerous body cells.

Doesn't say anything about oxygen stimulating anything.


I hear overeactive T cells are what causes allergies?

[wilks]

LOL!
I am obviously in need of much re-education when it comes to my colon!
I dunno, I quote various medics, professors, Quackwatch and the National Council against Health Fraud and I get replies like
"I'm sorry someone has told you that colonic therapy isn't good for you".
Sigh.

[Rolfe]

This is just so wrong it's hysterical.

Eos is right, most of the "friendly" bacteria, and the most important ones (including the famous lactobacillus), are anaerobes!

To have any benefit from an antiparasite treatment one would first need to have parasites. Then of course it would help if one used a parasite treatment that actually worked.... Very few people living in the First World have parasites. Nevertheless the advances in anti-parasite treatments seen over the past 20-30 years are enormous. Nobody needs herbs for this. However, I believe there is a nice little scam that involves giving people plant material which is poorly digested, and the undigested residue looks very much like parasites to the uninitiated. So, take this herb, look at all those awful parasites, wasn't that wonderful!

Yeah, right.

Rolfe.