Abortion

[Luke T.]

I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think anyone here has tried to say that women are getting abortions because to be pregnant will automatically kill them.

I just think any arguments about rape and incest and health of the mother are smokescreens to cover the overwhelming real reasons behind the number of abortions.

Alan Guttmacher was a former president of Planned Parenthood, I believe. They (AGI) are one of the most well respected and most cited sources of reproductive infomation in the world.

Okay. And the primary reasons cited for why women get abortions do not disagree with the same reasons and percentages I listed from another source.

I don't know the validity of that number any more than I don't know the validity of the much larger numbers you were talking about.

You brought up a high number of deaths in "developing regions" due to illegal abortions as if that would have some bearing on what would happen here. It has no bearing on what would happen here.

I'm not particularly concerned with what might or might not have been the number of illegal abortion deaths 30 years ago. I am far more interested in what that number might be should abortion be made illegal.

Which is why I showed there were 39 deaths from illegal abortions in the last full year before Roe v. Wade. And a total of 88 deaths from both legal and illegal abortions. You see, before Roe v. Wade, abortion wasn't completely illegal everywhere. It was left to the states, which is where we would return if Roe v. Wade is overturned. It is my guess that if Roe v. Wade were overturned today, abortion would still be legal in more places than it was in 1972. But that's just a guess.

And since medical care has come a long way in the last 30 years, I don't suspect the number of deaths would increase if abortions were illegal today.

I'm not sure what the point of even arguing about that would be. Are you saying that since illegal abortions don't kill very many women that it's ok? It would be better for women to get illegal abortions than to get legal ones performed in licensed facilities by licensed practitioners? Since they're getting a medical procedure that you don't approve of, it's ok if they go to unlicensed persons, or unsanitary facilities, since they probably won't die from it?

I realize my topic on SC is quite long, but if you had read it, you would see the most significant realization I came to during the process was learning that the number of illegal and legal abortions immediately before Roe v. Wade and the number of legal abortions after Roe v. Wade did not change in any significant fashion.

In other words, whether or abortion is legal or illegal in the U.S., the number which occur doesn't change.

This was in direct contradiction to my assumptions going into the subject. I was heavily biased in the belief that the number of abortions before Roe v. Wade was significantly lower, and that making abortions illegal again would cause a significant drop in them. I was wrong. The evidence came out against me. It was a big pill to swallow.

Making it illegal isn't going to stop abortions. Cheaper, better, more freely available contraception would drastically cut the amount of abortions, though. If we want to reduce the amount of abortions that happen in this country, that's where to start, I think. Not by attempting to decide and legislate whether women have good enough reasons to suit you.

The end conclusion I reached in the topic on SC was pretty much the same. The aim should be to educate about birth control.

As a pro-lifer, it is a matter of principle to me that Roe v. Wade be either overturned or at least scaled back to prevent abortions in the second trimester on. And about 70 percent of Americans agree with that position. Illegalizing second trimester abortions, that is.

However, most pro-life effort should be directed toward birth control education.

When you think about the number of men and women who are not using any birth control, not even a condom, in an age of AIDS and herpes and other STDs, it is scary.

It is my opinion that if a woman decides she needs to have an abortion, she has good reasons. It's not for you or me to say. Only her.

If I believe she is carrying a human being in her womb, then it is for me to say whether she should be allowed to kill it.

[Darat]

I just think any arguments about rape and incest and health of the mother are smokescreens to cover the overwhelming real reasons behind the number of abortions.

...snip...

I thought the "overwhelming real reasons" was that someone didn't want a particular kid?

Why anyone would want someone to have a kid they didn't want has always been beyond me. (Not saying you are saying that Luke - just a general comment.)

[Luke T.]

The other reason I don't think abortion should be illegal is because some babies are shown to be born with serious problems where they can only survive a few hours outside of the womb and are only born into the world to live for a few hours of pain. But I can't bring myself to say I'm pro-choice either because I don't like to see people getting multiple abortions just because they don't want a baby in their lives and the only reason for that is because they don't want to parent.. I can't make heads of tails of it, because I don't have enough information about abortion and don't know all that much about it.

Even allowing for defective babies and rape and incest and the life of the mother, that still leaves well over a million abortions annually to account for.

[Luke T.]

I thought the "overwhelming real reasons" was that someone didn't want a particular kid?

Why anyone would want someone to have a kid they didn't want has always been beyond me. (Not saying you are saying that Luke - just a general comment.)

If you don't want a kid, use birth control or abstain from sex.

[Luke T.]

Hey, nobody wants AIDS either. But once you get it, there is no pro-choice argument that will allow you to get rid of it. There is no one else to blame for being in that position. There is no one to point to as enslaving you.

[Darat]

If you don't want a kid, use birth control or abstain from sex.

That's two ways of doing it. A third way is to abort any kid you don't want. All of the different ways have their pros and cons.

[Darat]

Hey, nobody wants AIDS either. But once you get it, there is no pro-choice argument that will allow you to get rid of it. There is no one else to blame for being in that position. There is no one to point to as enslaving you.

Don't understand the relevance of this at all what has someone getting AIDS got to do with someone having a kid they didn't want?

[Luke T.]

Don't understand the relevance of this at all what has someone getting AIDS got to do with someone having a kid they didn't want?

I'm just saying that the decisions that lead to the consequences need to be made earlier, not when it is too late.

[Darat]

I'm just saying that the decisions that lead to the consequences need to be made earlier, not when it is too late.

But it's not too late in the case of an unwanted child since we have effective and safe drugs and other techniques for aborting an unwanted child.

[meg]

Even allowing for defective babies and rape and incest and the life of the mother, that still leaves well over a million abortions annually to account for.

Account for to whom? Exactly who is making the judgements here?

[Luke T.]

But it's not too late in the case of an unwanted child since we have effective and safe drugs and other techniques for aborting an unwanted child.

Just pop the kid in the microwave or toss them out the window.

Yeah. Okay. It's time for me to walk away.

[Darat]

Just pop the kid in the microwave or toss them out the window.

...snip...


I am not suggesting that. However I do have to say that if the only choice was between a child say being continuous abused from birth until adulthood then I would rather that child be killed even as 6 month old baby.

If a society says "OK no abortion of unwanted children" then I think that society must then also say "OK we will provide for any child you do not want" so all such children born "unwanted" should immediately be state cared for (my preference would of course for such children to be adopted by loving parents).

[Abbyas]

Hey, nobody wants AIDS either. But once you get it, there is no pro-choice argument that will allow you to get rid of it. There is no one else to blame for being in that position. There is no one to point to as enslaving you.

AIDS is uncurable, but an unwanted pregnancy is.

Medical technology has made it easier on women. We don't have to release eggs, we don't even have to have a period every month. And there are safe, available abortions.

[gnome]

But it's not too late in the case of an unwanted child since we have effective and safe drugs and other techniques for aborting an unwanted child.

I think, if I might put two cents in, Luke T is advocating that it should be considered too late, out of deference to the developing human life waiting to be born. I think it's a valid point that there are few excuses for an unwanted pregnancy. I personally don't have a problem with a very early abortion, but for those that do, this is a sound argument for them to make.

Almost everyone agrees that at a certain point, the developing life has a right to live that trumps the mother's right to simply choose whether to carry the baby. Disagreement is occuring on where that line is to be drawn. Jokes aside, those that don't mind abortion generally have a problem with infanticide... and those that oppose it don't really think "every sperm is sacred".

Our of curiosity Luke T... do you have an opinion on "Morning-After" pills--they are not technically an abortion, in that they prevent implantation of a fertilized egg... a phenomenon that often occurs naturally.

[Mark]

Our of curiosity Luke T... do you have an opinion on "Morning-After" pills--they are not technically an abortion, in that they prevent implantation of a fertilized egg... a phenomenon that often occurs naturally.

Substitute "often" with "every day" among the sexually active population.

[Luke T.]

I think, if I might put two cents in, Luke T is advocating that it should be considered too late, out of deference to the developing human life waiting to be born. I think it's a valid point that there are few excuses for an unwanted pregnancy. I personally don't have a problem with a very early abortion, but for those that do, this is a sound argument for them to make.

Almost everyone agrees that at a certain point, the developing life has a right to live that trumps the mother's right to simply choose whether to carry the baby. Disagreement is occuring on where that line is to be drawn. Jokes aside, those that don't mind abortion generally have a problem with infanticide... and those that oppose it don't really think "every sperm is sacred".

Yes, gnome, you have captured my sentiments exactly.

Our of curiosity Luke T... do you have an opinion on "Morning-After" pills--they are not technically an abortion, in that they prevent implantation of a fertilized egg... a phenomenon that often occurs naturally.

I am undecided on abortions prior to the second trimester.

I don't have any feelings either way about the morning after pill. It doesn't bother me, nor do I champion it.

[meg]

There is a phenomenon in psychology called the "fundamental attribution error" that I think is a common problem when talking about women who get abortions. Pretty much what it means is that people tend to explain their own behavior based on situational circumstances, however they explain the behavior of others by disposition. If I stub my toe, I say its because the furniture was moved, or my kid left a toy on the floor. If my husband stubs his toe, I say its because he's unobservant. He should watch where he's going.

So, if a woman gets an abortion, she might say that she can't afford a child, she's already got three kids, - she thought she was done, she was on the pill, she's concerned about her own health (being pregnant at her age), she's separated from the father and things aren't looking good and she doesn't think she could do it alone, she's worried about the health of the fetus (since she's been drinking pretty heavy due to the relationship problems and she was on the pill), and she can't afford to lose any time from work, or possibly lose her job, because she's got those 3 other kids depending on her.

The other guy sees she had an abortion and says, "Another "convenience" abortion. She just didn't want a kid."

Food for thought.

"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion - When the anti-choice choose"
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

"Abortion Common Among All Women - Even those thought to oppose abortion"
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/prabort2.html

Meg

[Luke T.]

Meg, here's a dramatic case for your files. :)

My wife had twins three and a half years ago. She had pre-eclampsia before they were born and had to be hospitalized. She nearly died while giving birth to them and was further hospitalized for weeks afterward. She came within a hair's breadth of dying.

While she was in the hospital, I took care of the twins. Exhausting work. No sleep.

Even with me arranging my work schedule to be home as much as possible, after four months we were both as tired as two human beings can get. And my wife was suffering from serious post-partum depression.

Then we found out she was pregnant again. We fell into the "no birth control" category since because of the complications of birthing the twins, she was not immediately able to return to the pill, and I simply cannot function with a condom.

Then I was laid off from my job. I was in the hi-tech field which had collapsed, and there were NO jobs to be found. And we lived in the state with the highest unemployment rate in the country.

We were living off the government, which doesn't provide anything close to what we needed. We were looking at losing our house, everything.

So we pretty much matched the top four or five or six reasons women get abortion over. In spades.

And many of our friends did not hesitate to suggest we get an abortion. To be honest, we did not receive the news of her pregnancy with any happiness. We were devastated. Shocked. Feeling really, really stupid. And tired. Oh my God, we were tired.

But the thought of abortion was out of the question.

I just put my nose to the grindstone. I went out and busted my ass and got a job in a totally different field, several months below the average unemployoment time, and way before anyone else in my company who was laid off got one.

Motivation.

That new baby is two and a half now. The twins are three and a half. We can't imagine what life would be like without any of them.

We're still pretty tired and we live paycheck to paycheck. :)

ETA: My wife has told me that even if she got pregnant from being raped, she wouldn't get an abortion.

Sometimes people forget some of the most avid pro-lifers are women.

[bluess]

Ok, Luke, you and your wife made choices. Your choices.

If we were faced with my imminent death or the birth of a baby, Mr. Blue advised me from the outset of our twenty year marriage that he would pick me each time, and would lobby for an abortion. And he doesn't like the thought of abortion.

Different people, different reasons, different choices.

[Luke T.]

Ok, Luke, you and your wife made choices. Your choices.

If we were faced with my imminent death or the birth of a baby, Mr. Blue advised me from the outset of our twenty year marriage that he would pick me each time, and would lobby for an abortion. And he doesn't like the thought of abortion.

Different people, different reasons, different choices.

I would also choose my wife over a baby. At the time of the twins' birth, no one knew she would almost die. It was during the second pregnancy that we were concerned about her health. We were also worried about our financial situation. We didn't want another child.

Damned inconvenient.

[bluess]

Again, different people, different reasons, different choices.

I get the feeling you want a pat on the back for choosing to continue the pregnancy despite your circumstances. And also want to smack anyone else in the head for not making the same choice. Maybe you're stronger than that other person. Maybe your marriage is stronger than theirs. Maybe, maybe, but it should not be YOUR choice.

[meg]

Good for you, Luke T, busting your ass and getting another job to take care of your family. Good for you. I mean it.

Unfortunately, while I have great sympathy for your plight, your sad story is still not of the caliber of many of those in that report.

For one, you were there, busting your ass to make it work.

The majority of women facing abortion are unmarried.

The majority of women facing abortion in 2004 made less than 200% of the poverty level. For a single person, that's 18k/year. A bit less than either of your jobs paid/pays, I'm guessing. That's about $8.50/hr.

Half of them were at or below the poverty line. That's $9300/year. $775/month.

I'm guessing you probably had insurance covering most of the cost for both pregancies. Would that be right?

While I'm sure you were emotionally, financially, and psychologically distraught at your circumstance, I would not say by any means that you therefore have some kind of perfect understanding about how people in much worse situations than you should think or behave.

Personally, I think that no matter what kind of experience you've had, you still have no right to tell others how they must deal with the situations in their own lives. It's their business whether to get an abortion or not. Not yours or mine.

Meg