Teacher suspended for sock-puppet "Faust"

[Melendwyr]

As discussed on The Panda's Thumb here (http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/03/what_were_up_ag.html#more).

[Mephisto]

"Parents accused Ms. Waggoner of devil worship and, in at least one instance, of not being a Christian, as if not being a Christian were somehow reprehensible. In fact, Ms. Waggoner, herself an opera singer, describes herself as a Christian and has two Christian recordings among her credentials."

Ah, cavorting with demons, I blame myself. ;)

[Mycroft]

Unfortunately in small towns it only takes a few nut-case families to make a big fuss and bring about shameful decisions like this.

I'd like to see the ACLU take this one up.

[jj]

Unfortunately in small towns it only takes a few nut-case families to make a big fuss and bring about shameful decisions like this.

I'd like to see the ACLU take this one up.


Now I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but three words:

Current
Political
Climate

[CapelDodger]

Now I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but three words:

Current
Political
ClimateWhich would have been just as apposite in 1850's Kansas, where they had a prototype Civil War. The issue then, of course, was slavery but what the hey. In Kansas it started like this - police intervention to ensure people's safety. As Kansas was a microcosm of 1850's US, this town appears to be a microcosm of 1850's Kansas.

It's not as if the emotions stirred aren't equally visceral.

[jj]

Which would have been just as apposite in 1850's Kansas, where they had a prototype Civil War. The issue then, of course, was slavery but what the hey. In Kansas it started like this - police intervention to ensure people's safety. As Kansas was a microcosm of 1850's US, this town appears to be a microcosm of 1850's Kansas.

It's not as if the emotions stirred aren't equally visceral.


Well, not sure what you're thinking my point is, but my point is in fact that the current political climate encourages people to go off the deep end and attack others in this fashion. I dare say it almost rewards them.

[Tony]

Now I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but three words:

Current
Political
Climate

Yep.

[Grammatron]

This is a lawsuit waiting to happen:

The issue with Tresa Waggoner wasn't the opera, but that she had run the holiday pageant without Christmas songs," said Grossiant. Waggoner said she taught the elementary school students a variety of songs for the winter concert, but didn't include the traditional Christian songs.

Cory Babi, the wife of school board member Mike Babi, called four days before the program and said there would be problems if there were no Christmas songs, said Waggoner.

"I told her we couldn't sing them because public schools didn't want to offend people of other religions, including Jewish people, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses," she said.

After Waggoner showed less than 12 minutes of the Faust videotape, Cory Babi said her daughter asked about abortion and suicide. Babi declined comment Thursday.

"The connection is transparent. They lied and said Faust is about abortion," said Waggoner. "The only thing I can do is expose this as the injustice that it is."

[Dr Adequate]

I liked the mayor resigning, that was a classy thing to do.

[Zep]

http://www.wklt.com/ellis&co/hillbilly.jpg
Them thar singin's jes not RAHT with pants on, Elmer!

Eeyup. *spit*

[Lord Muck oGentry]

http://www.wklt.com/ellis&co/hillbilly.jpg
Them thar singin's jes not RAHT with pants on, Elmer!

Eeyup. *spit*

Zep,

Ain't them thar boys Afrikaaners?

Regards

[Luke T.]

Now I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but three words:

Current
Political
Climate

Well, not sure what you're thinking my point is, but my point is in fact that the current political climate encourages people to go off the deep end and attack others in this fashion. I dare say it almost rewards them.


Teacher Fired For Being Gay (http://www.youth.org/loco/PERSONProject/Alerts/States/NewJersey/teacher.html)

1996.

[Luke T.]

Teacher Fired for Answering Question About Homosexuality (http://www.youth.org/loco/PERSONProject/Alerts/States/SouthDakota/teacher.html).

1997

[Mycroft]

Well, not sure what you're thinking my point is, but my point is in fact that the current political climate encourages people to go off the deep end and attack others in this fashion. I dare say it almost rewards them.

Why, because a Republican holds the white house? How so?

[Luke T.]

Second, the scope of each exemption appears to be quite broad. The Title VII exemption, for instance, has been held to protect employment discrimination by religious organizations in a variety of circumstances:


the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints when it fired several employees because they failed to qualify for a `temple recommend,' i.e., a certificate that they were Mormons who abided by the Church's standards in such matters as regular church attendance, tithing, and abstinence from coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco (Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints v. Amos, 483 U.S. 327 (1987));

a Christian school that fired a teacher for having an affair with the father of three children at the school and breaking up his marriage (Gosche v. Calvert High School, 997 F.Supp. 867 (N.D. Ohio 1998), aff'd mem, 181 F.3d 101 (6th Cir. 1999));

a Baptist university that barred a professor from teaching at its divinity school because his theological views differed from those of the dean (Killinger v. Samford University), 113 F.3d 196 (11th Cir. 1997));

number of Christian schools that fired female teachers for having extramarital sex or committing adultery (Boyd v. Harding Academy of Memphis, Inc., 88 F.3d 410 (6th Cir. 1996) and Dolter v. Wahlert High School, 483 F.Supp 266 (N.D. Iowa 1980);

a Christian college that refused to hire a Jewish professor (Siegel v. Truett-McConnell College, Inc., 13 F.Supp.2d 1335 (N.D. Ga. 1994), aff'd mem., 73 F.3d 1108 (11th Cir. 1995));

a Catholic school for firing a teacher who remarried without seeking an annulment of her first marriage in accord with Catholic doctrine (Little v. Wuerl, 929 F.2d 944 (3d Cir. 1991));

a Catholic university that refused to hire a female professor because her views on abortion were not in accord with Catholic teaching (Maguire v. Marquette University, 814 F.2d 1213 (7th Cir. 1987));

a Baptist nursing school that fired a student services specialist after she was ordained a minister in a gay and lesbian church that advocated views on homosexuality `which were inconsistent with the [school's] perception of its purpose and mission' (Hall v. Baptist Memorial Health Care Corporation, 27 F.Supp.2d 1029, 1038-39 (W.D. Tenn. 1998));

a Presbyterian college for dismissing a Catholic professor (Wirth v. College of the Ozarks, 26 F.Supp.2d 1185 (W.D. Mo. 1998));

a Christian retirement home that fired a Muslim receptionist after she insisted on wearing a head covering as required by her faith (EEOC v. Presbyterian Ministries, Inc., 788 F.Supp. 1154 (W.D. Wash. 1992));

the Christian Science Monitor when it refused to hire a non-Christian Scientist (Feldstein v. Christian Science Monitor, 555 F.Supp. 974 (D. Mass. 1983)); and

a Catholic school when it fired a teacher for marrying a divorced man (Bishop Leonard Regional Catholic School v. Unemployment Compensation Board of Review, 140 Pa.Cmwlth. 428, 593 A.2d 28 (1991));

Link (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp106&sid=cp106M6VRe&refer=&r_n=hr608.106&item=&sel=TOC_1415369&)

[CapelDodger]

Well, not sure what you're thinking my point is, but my point is in fact that the current political climate encourages people to go off the deep end and attack others in this fashion. I dare say it almost rewards them.
My point was that there was a "current political climate" in the mid-19thCE US which was a harbinger of the First American Civil War. By hindsight. What does our foresight tell us about current harbingers?

[CapelDodger]

I liked the mayor resigning, that was a classy thing to do.Seconded.

[Luke T.]

My point was that there was a "current political climate" in the mid-19thCE US which was a harbinger of the First American Civil War. By hindsight. What does our foresight tell us about current harbingers?

That some people are shortsighted? Blowing current events waaaaaaayyy out of perspective by comparing them to Bloody Kansas?

[Zep]

Zep,

Ain't them thar boys Afrikaaners?

RegardsGeneric hillbillys... ;)

[Mycroft]

That some people are shortsighted? Blowing current events waaaaaaayyy out of perspective by comparing them to Bloody Kansas?

I think they called it burning Kansas. I have a book on it somewhere, interesting stuff.

[Luke T.]

I think they called it burning Kansas. I have a book on it somewhere, interesting stuff.

Could it be this book (http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/The_Great_Republic_By_the_Master_Historians_Vol_II I/bloodykan_da.html)?

Or maybe this magazine article (http://www.kancoll.org/voices/1996/1296blks.htm)?

Or this PBS program (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/historyofus/web05/segment7_p.html)?
:D

[Mycroft]

Could it be this book (http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/The_Great_Republic_By_the_Master_Historians_Vol_II I/bloodykan_da.html)?

Or maybe this magazine article (http://www.kancoll.org/voices/1996/1296blks.htm)?

Or this PBS program (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/historyofus/web05/segment7_p.html)?
:D

You're right.

The term I was trying to think of was bleeding Kansas, but the terms bloody and bleeding are interchangeable when referring to the events of that era.

[jj]

I think they called it burning Kansas. I have a book on it somewhere, interesting stuff.

T'was the 17th day of september you know
There rolled into town teh great Freemont Show
They shut down the factories and let the schools out
'Cause the children would all vote for Freemont no doubt.

...

[Mephisto]

Why, because a Republican holds the white house? How so?

Then you see the push of ID by X-tian conservatives as a good thing? Who else can you blame - even the President says the jury is still out on global warming and believes that evolution is "just a theory." If he's not at least partially responsible for the religious nutjobs coming out of the woodwork, who is?

[Luke T.]

Then you see the push of ID by X-tian conservatives as a good thing? Who else can you blame - even the President says the jury is still out on global warming and believes that evolution is "just a theory." If he's not at least partially responsible for the religious nutjobs coming out of the woodwork, who is?

Do I need to go back and bold all the years in my previous posts for you?

The "nutjobs" are not coming out of the woodwork. They've been here all along.

[Pyrrho]

Ah, well, welcome to America. 100 years ago Anthony Comstock ruled the mails with an iron fist. Times have changed...and they're changing back.

[Abdul Alhazred]

In George Orwell's A Clergyman's Daughter (~1930s) a schoolmarm gets in trouble for teaching Macbeth. That talk of wombs, you know.

OK, it's fiction, but it was intended to be believable.

So the "current political situation" is pretty long term.

If "George Bush's America" is an incipient theocracy comparable to the Taliban, then the USA always was one except for one brief shining moment during the summer of love.

[Melendwyr]

If "George Bush's America" is an incipient theocracy comparable to the Taliban, then the USA always was one except for one brief shining moment during the summer of love. The Hippies' hearts were in the right place. Their brains were nowhere to be seen.

[Mephisto]

Do I need to go back and bold all the years in my previous posts for you?

The "nutjobs" are not coming out of the woodwork. They've been here all along.

I thought the cliché, "coming out of the woodwork," suggested that they've always been there? I'm suggesting that they are just emboldened by a President who sees evolution as just a theory and religious belief on par with science. :)

[Mycroft]

Then you see the push of ID by X-tian conservatives as a good thing?

Huh? Who said that? I'm only questioning your assumption that this is somehow Bush's fault.

Who else can you blame - even the President says the jury is still out on global warming and believes that evolution is "just a theory." If he's not at least partially responsible for the religious nutjobs coming out of the woodwork, who is?

I think Luke effectively demonstrated these things happen regardless of who is in the Whitehouse.

[jj]

My point was that there was a "current political climate" in the mid-19thCE US which was a harbinger of the First American Civil War. By hindsight. What does our foresight tell us about current harbingers?

Nothing
Good

They called it a council of voters you know
But to tell you the truth was a great baby show
For when they had met they had nothing to say
But poor bleeding Kansas and 10 cents a day!

And the middle verse comes to mind, too:

They made a procession of wagons and boats
Of rackins and oxen they also had votes
Sledgehammers, triangles and carpenter's tools
One thousand and eight hundred horses and mules


Stephen Foster sometimes did have a point, I guess.

[Ed]

I liked the mayor resigning, that was a classy thing to do.

A seemingly reasonable person had the bully pulpit. She ran away. Not smart.

[daredelvis]

Do I need to go back and bold all the years in my previous posts for you?

The "nutjobs" are not coming out of the woodwork. They've been here all along.


This is a PUBLIC school. How many of your previous posts were public?

Daredelvis

[Luke T.]

I thought the cliché, "coming out of the woodwork," suggested that they've always been there? I'm suggesting that they are just emboldened by a President who sees evolution as just a theory and religious belief on par with science. :)

The pod people have not been in the woodwork. They've been among us all this time.

Don't fall asleep! You're next! You're next!

[Melendwyr]

A seemingly reasonable person had the bully pulpit. She ran away. Not smart. So instead she should have taken the opportunity available to her of preaching to the damned?

[Mark]

Do I need to go back and bold all the years in my previous posts for you?

The "nutjobs" are not coming out of the woodwork. They've been here all along.

And are major players in the Republican Party...you know, the party that has a majority hold on the entire federal government (and most states). Hello. That's the difference now.

[CapelDodger]

The pod people have not been in the woodwork. They've been among us all this time.
The woodwork metaphor is about them being hidden, and in a particular context - the electoral one, in this case. What the Republican Party has done is to recognise this hidden electoral asset and mobilise it to their advantage.

The matter is complicated by the demise of the the weird marriage of Southern and Northern Democrats - united only in their hatred of Republicans - in LBJ's tenure. It was already under stress. A lot of the Southern Democrat vote was church-going. A lot of the church-goers didn't vote at all. The Republican Party ate that up, the Northern Democrats couldn't get near the feast. The best they could come up with was running Southerners for President.

[Meadmaker]

The issue with Tresa Waggoner wasn't the opera, but that she had run the holiday pageant without Christmas songs," said Grossiant. Waggoner said she taught the elementary school students a variety of songs for the winter concert, but didn't include the traditional Christian songs.

Cory Babi, the wife of school board member Mike Babi, called four days before the program and said there would be problems if there were no Christmas songs, said Waggoner.

"I told her we couldn't sing them because public schools didn't want to offend people of other religions, including Jewish people, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses," she said.

She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot.

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot.

[ImaginalDisc]

She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot.

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot.

I'd be offended if my child were asked to sing religious hymns at a function in a public school, because guess what, that violates the sepration of church and state. Go sing those at a church.

[TragicMonkey]

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot.

What if the holiday in question is the Fourth of July? Xmas carols then would be a trifle....odd.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot.

...or, more likely, we just don't think that a public school is an appropriate place to advertise anyone's religion. If you want your spawn to warble X-Mas carols, put them in your church choir. Don't expect those who don't believe as you do to fund your taste in music or religion.

Oh, by the way, in my humble opinion after your comments on the Gay Marriage (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52245)thread, I don't think you're in a position to accuse anyone of being "an intolerant bigot."

Pot, kettle, black.

[Dr Adequate]

A seemingly reasonable person had the bully pulpit. She ran away. Not smart. That is unnecessarily unpleasant.

You agree that she is seemingly reasonable. Well, good.

You say she "had the bully pulpit" --- an Americanism I think I understand. But obviously she still does have the "bully pulpit" --- she's still being reported by the media. And she must have had the "bully pulpit" before she was elected mayor, or how would she be elected mayor?

And you say she "ran away". I have the impression --- stop me if I'm wrong --- that being mayor of a small town in America is a mark of respect rather than political power. I think also it varies from state to state. So do correct any error I make. But the impression I have is that the most effective gesture the mayor could make on behalf of the good guys was to resign her office.

If I remember rightly, you're one of the posters who is worried by the Douglas Adams Paradox --- that those who seek political power are least worthy of it. Maybe in the general case you're right. But in this particular case, the mayor laid down her politcal office as a protest --- so you call her a coward. Is there any action you can't be cynical about? I say here is one person in public life who has laid aside personal ambition to make a protest for what is right.

Sheesh, you might as well say that Rosa Parks was lazy.

I applaud the mayor. Resigning was a classy thing to do.

[Dr Adequate]

She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot.

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot. However, the teacher in question did not say that she was offended by singing Christmas carols, and you are flailing away at a straw woman.

[Achán hiNidráne]

However, the teacher in question did not say that she was offended by singing Christmas carols, and you are flailing away at a straw woman.

Ah, but to the Religious Right, criticism equals bigotry. (Sort of like Issac Haye's alleged comments about South Park.) It appears that in Meadmaker's world Christianity is the only religion that counts. All those heathens and pagans had just better shut up and listen to the children sing songs that don't reflect their point of view (or pay for via their taxes) whether they like it or not.

[Meadmaker]

...or, more likely, we just don't think that a public school is an appropriate place to advertise anyone's religion. If you want your spawn to warble X-Mas carols, put them in your church choir. Don't expect those who don't believe as you do to fund your taste in music or religion.


They're songs. Music. Tunes. I don't like banning music.

They're traditional. They are part of a holiday celebration. Why do you suppose they hold "holiday pageants" in December?

Also, there's no court ruling I'm aware of that would prohibit them. I would guess, legal minds can correct me if I'm wrong, that like holiday displays on public grounds, they are considered acceptable if they are part of an overall secular presentation.

A lot of people here would love to see them banned, but the courts aren't on your side, at least not yet. So, Ms. Waggoner took it upon herself to make sure she didn't offend the Jehovah's Witnesses (I wonder if there were any), and made an enemy of most of the town, including a few very squeaky wheels.

I don't think someone should be fired for her political or religious beliefs, so unless there is something else that hasn't made the media, it looks like she has a very strong case for a lawsuit against the district. That doesn't change the fact that it was pretty darned dumb to not allow Christmas carols at the "holiday pageant".

And if you whine to a lawyer because some kids are singing songs you don't like, you are an intolerant bigot.

(I haven't seen anyinformation, but I wonder what they did do at the holiday pageant. "Winter Wonderland", but no "Away in a Manger"? I've never seen a reference.)

[Meadmaker]

However, the teacher in question did not say that she was offended by singing Christmas carols, and you are flailing away at a straw woman.

No, the teacher didn't. However, I was pretty sure that some people on this board would express their offense about the singing of Christmas carols at the holiday pageant, and it was to them that I was referring. So, just to make things clear, Ms. Waggoner was just misguided or had an inaccurate view of the law. However, if you who are reading this want to ban Christmas carols that makes you intolerant, almost by definition.

[ImaginalDisc]

No, the teacher didn't. However, I was pretty sure that some people on this board would express their offense about the singing of Christmas carols at the holiday pageant, and it was to them that I was referring. So, just to make things clear, Ms. Waggoner was just misguided or had an inaccurate view of the law. However, if you who are reading this want to ban Christmas carols that makes you intolerant, almost by definition.

Meadmaker, you're trying to change the subject. The subject is this teacher, who got fired because of pressure from members of her community. Stop trying to put people here on the defensive by this sophomoric technique. No one is going to fall for it.

[corplinx]

Its Bush's Fault! Oh wait, JJ beat me to it. (if the quotes of his in other posts are accurate, hes on the naughtly list right now)

[ImaginalDisc]

I have nothing to contribute!

Oh wait, corplinx beat me to it.

If you want to make or refute points, join us. If you want to make fly-by personnal attacks, start a thread in flame wars.

[corplinx]

I have nothing to contribute!

Oh wait, corplinx beat me to it.

If you want to make or refute points, join us. If you want to make fly-by personnal attacks, start a thread in flame wars.

It may be hard for you to grasp how I refuted a point but I assure you I did. I lampooned someone's position which I considered silly and not worthy of real discussion. I can't raise your IQ to understand that, but I can ask you to let the moderators deal with me and shut the (rule 8) up telling me how, where, or why I should post.

[ImaginalDisc]

It may be hard for you to grasp how I refuted a point but I assure you I did. I lampooned someone's position which I considered silly and not worthy of real discussion. I can't raise your IQ to understand that, but I can ask you to let the moderators deal with me and shut the (rule 8) up telling me how, where, or why I should post.

No, you expressed disagreement and derision; you actually discussed nothing.

[Dr Adequate]

No, the teacher didn't. However, I was pretty sure that some people on this board would express their offense about the singing of Christmas carols at the holiday pageant, and it was to them that I was referring. Nice backpedal. So when you say that she was "suspended for being an idiot", to what, exactly, were you referring?

Here's your post again in full:

She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot.

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot.I presume you mean something by it.

[Meadmaker]

Nice backpedal. So when you say that she was "suspended for being an idiot", to what, exactly, were you referring?

Here's your post again in full:

"She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot.

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot."

I presume you mean something by it.

Here's what I meant. First two sentences: "She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot."

This followed a quoted section discussing her refusal to allow Christmas carols. I was calling her an idiot for refusing to allow Christmas carols in the school holiday pageant, and saying that it was that refusal that led to her suspension.

Next sentence:"Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot."

Note the change from third person to second person. This was directed toward "you", the reader.


My English teachers would be appalled at the poor composition and rhetorical techniques displayed, and the confusion is quite understandable. I hope it's now clear.

Ms. Waggoner was quite foolish to walk into a small town and impose some misguided view of what should and should not be allowed in a Christmas concert. She was quoted as saying you can't sing Christmas carols at a public school, and on that point she is incorrect. You can. There are no laws against it. Courts have allowed religious music to be performed in public schools as part of holiday and cultural activities. When, in the face of community opposition to her not allowing Christmas carols, she persisted in that position, she made some enemies in the town. Those enemies then looked for any excuse to run her out of town, which they found.

Now, there are many on JREF who would applaud her stand on Christmas carols. To those of you who would do so, I say that you should learn a little tolerance. No harm will be done if your kid has to listen to, or even sing, "Away in a Manger". If you don't like it, voice your opposition. If you really don't like it, refuse to participate. But if the whole darned town wants to hear "Silent Night" except you, ask yourself if you are making a principled stand for the separation of church and state, or if you are just being whiny.

Again, I reiterate, if that is all there is to the story, she shouldn't have been dismissed. She was hired to teach music, and she apparently was doing that fairly well. Her political position shouldn't have caused her to be dismissed, and if it did, she should be reinstated or compensated. All I'm saying is that she was apparently insensitive to the culture of the place she was in, and made people angry. That's what got her fired.

(As an aside, I grew up in a small town. It's also entirely possible that the "real" reason some people hated her has absolutely nothing to do with carols, or opera, or anything else in the news. It's always possible that she was best friends with someone who slept with the wrong husband. That sort of thing happens in small towns. However, I'll assume that such issues are peripheral to the topic.)

[Mycroft]

So instead she should have taken the opportunity available to her of preaching to the damned?

Yes.

[Mycroft]

I'd be offended if my child were asked to sing religious hymns at a function in a public school, because guess what, that violates the sepration of church and state. Go sing those at a church.

You're going to be a lot of fun when you have kids in the public school system.

[ImaginalDisc]

You're going to be a lot of fun when you have kids in the public school system.

Indeed, because I won't back down and let my children be prosyletized to on tax payer money. Just as my parents stuck up for me, I'll stick up for them.

[ImaginalDisc]

Here's what I meant. First two sentences: "She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot."

This followed a quoted section discussing her refusal to allow Christmas carols. I was calling her an idiot for refusing to allow Christmas carols in the school holiday pageant, and saying that it was that refusal that led to her suspension.

Next sentence:"Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot."

Note the change from third person to second person. This was directed toward "you", the reader.


My English teachers would be appalled at the poor composition and rhetorical techniques displayed, and the confusion is quite understandable. I hope it's now clear.

Ms. Waggoner was quite foolish to walk into a small town and impose some misguided view of what should and should not be allowed in a Christmas concert. She was quoted as saying you can't sing Christmas carols at a public school, and on that point she is incorrect. You can. There are no laws against it. Courts have allowed religious music to be performed in public schools as part of holiday and cultural activities. When, in the face of community opposition to her not allowing Christmas carols, she persisted in that position, she made some enemies in the town. Those enemies then looked for any excuse to run her out of town, which they found.

Now, there are many on JREF who would applaud her stand on Christmas carols. To those of you who would do so, I say that you should learn a little tolerance. No harm will be done if your kid has to listen to, or even sing, "Away in a Manger". If you don't like it, voice your opposition. If you really don't like it, refuse to participate. But if the whole darned town wants to hear "Silent Night" except you, ask yourself if you are making a principled stand for the separation of church and state, or if you are just being whiny.

Again, I reiterate, if that is all there is to the story, she shouldn't have been dismissed. She was hired to teach music, and she apparently was doing that fairly well. Her political position shouldn't have caused her to be dismissed, and if it did, she should be reinstated or compensated. All I'm saying is that she was apparently insensitive to the culture of the place she was in, and made people angry. That's what got her fired.

(As an aside, I grew up in a small town. It's also entirely possible that the "real" reason some people hated her has absolutely nothing to do with carols, or opera, or anything else in the news. It's always possible that she was best friends with someone who slept with the wrong husband. That sort of thing happens in small towns. However, I'll assume that such issues are peripheral to the topic.)

Hmm, let's see.

“I was definitely not sensitive to the conservative nature of the community, and I’ve learned that,” Waggoner said in Sunday’s editions of The Denver Post. “However, from what has been said about me, that I’m a Satan worshipper, my character, I can’t believe all of this. My intention was just to expose the kids to opera.”

Waggoner, who is in her first year teaching vocal music in Bennett, said she doesn’t expect to stay in town.

“I know I’m not accepted here, that I’m not welcome here by the parents,” she said. “It’s a very uncomfortable position.”

“I was definitely not sensitive to the conservative nature of the community, and I’ve learned that,” Waggoner said in Sunday’s editions of The Denver Post. “However, from what has been said about me, that I’m a Satan worshipper, my character, I can’t believe all of this. My intention was just to expose the kids to opera.”

Waggoner, who is in her first year teaching vocal music in Bennett, said she doesn’t expect to stay in town.

“I know I’m not accepted here, that I’m not welcome here by the parents,” she said. “It’s a very uncomfortable position.”



http://www.denverpost.com/entertainment/ci_3540512
Many parents agreed the video's violent moments and depictions of the devil were inappropriate for young elementary school students, she said. After receiving assurances that a similar situation wouldn't happen again, most were satisfied.

But a small group refuses to let the situation die, she said, in part because of lingering anger over Waggoner's decision to make a December concert an end-of-the semester recital without the expected Christmas carols.

You're right Meadmaker, it's the people who are defninding this new teacher who are intolerant, and not the minority slandering her, and running her out of town on a rail.
[/Sarcasm]

[Mycroft]

Indeed, because I won't back down and let my children be prosyletized to on tax payer money. Just as my parents stuck up for me, I'll stick up for them.

What happens when your kids don't want you to stick up for them in this specific way?

[ImaginalDisc]

What happens when your kids don't want you to stick up for them in this specific way?

Then that's fine. If my kids *chose* to sing some religious hymn in class, that's fine by me. If they're compelled to by the administration, that's not.

[Meadmaker]

You're right Meadmaker, it's the people who are defninding this new teacher who are intolerant, and not the minority slandering her, and running her out of town on a rail.
[/Sarcasm]

There's plenty of intolerance to go around. You can all share.

[ImaginalDisc]

There's plenty of intolerance to go around. You can all share.

Are you accusing those who promote a lack of religion in schools of intolerance?

[BPSCG]

Parents accused Ms. Waggoner of devil worship and, in at least one instance, of not being a Christian, as if not being a Christian were somehow reprehensible. In fact, Ms. Waggoner, herself an opera singer, describes herself as a Christian and has two Christian recordings among her credentials.
Ms. Waggoner, the mother of two children, was further accused of being a lesbian aiming to promote homosexuality. Ms. Wagonner says she was - get ready for this - explaining “trouser roles” in opera. (In Faust , a young man in love with Marguerite is played by a soprano.) Other parents complained that the video deals with abortion; Ms. Waggoner says flatly that they lied.This is hilarious.

If you're not familiar with the opera, it's based on part I of Goethe's play, where Faust sells his soul to Mephistopheles in exchange for youth, wins the heart of the beautiful maiden Marguerite (Gretchen in Goethe's play), gets her pregnant, kills her brother, and abandons her. She goes crazy, murders her baby (she does not abort it), and goes to prison where she awaits the scaffold. Faust and Mephistopheles get into her cell to help her escape. She sees Mephistopheles and prays wildly for the angels to carry her soul to God, while Faust pleads with her to escape with him. She looks at him, imagines his hands are covered with blood, exclaims, "Go! You fill me with horror!" and falls over dead. Mephistopheles proclaims, "She is judged!" But a heavenly chorale proclaims "She is saved!" and the curtain falls. Wonderful, glorious music in that last scene, even if you no more believe in God, Mephistopheles, or angels than you do in Santa and the Easter Bunny

Heavy stuff for elementary school kids, no doubt. But non-Christian? Please - it's a story partly about a sinner's redemption through Christ; how could it be more Christian? Deals with abortion? Don't be ridiculous. This is reminiscent of the yahoos who wanted the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn banned because Huck refers to Jim as a "n*****r." Has nothing to do with "the current political climate", and everything to do with the braying cultural ignoranti always in our midst.

[JamesDillon]

She wasn't suspended for showing opera. She was suspended for being an idiot.

Folks, if you are offended by singing Christmas carols at a holiday pageant, you are an intolerant bigot.

I believe the article says that the event was a "winter concert," not a "holiday pageant." It's hardly intolerant bigotry to keep religion out of secular events in public schools.

[ImaginalDisc]

This is hilarious.

If you're not familiar with the opera, it's based on part I of Goethe's play, where Faust sells his soul to Mephistopheles in exchange for youth, wins the heart of the beautiful maiden Marguerite (Gretchen in Goethe's play), gets her pregnant, kills her brother, and abandons her. She goes crazy, murders her baby (she does not abort it), and goes to prison where she awaits the scaffold. Faust and Mephistopheles get into her cell to help her escape. She sees Mephistopheles and prays wildly for the angels to carry her soul to God, while Faust pleads with her to escape with him. She looks at him, imagines his hands are covered with blood, exclaims, "Go! You fill me with horror!" and falls over dead. Mephistopheles proclaims, "She is judged!" But a heavenly chorale proclaims "She is saved!" and the curtain falls. Wonderful, glorious music in that last scene, even if you no more believe in God, Mephistopheles, or angels than you do in Santa and the Easter Bunny

Heavy stuff for elementary school kids, no doubt. But non-Christian? Please - it's a story partly about a sinner's redemption through Christ; how could it be more Christian? Deals with abortion? Don't be ridiculous. This is reminiscent of the yahoos who wanted the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn banned because Huck refers to Jim as a "n*****r." Has nothing to do with "the current Political climate", and everything to do with the braying cultural ignoranti always in our midst.

:clap:

Huzzah!

[Meadmaker]

It's hardly intolerant bigotry to keep religion out of secular events in public schools.

Well, then, you really ought to be complaining about the showing of the Opera "Faust", because it is a Christian play.

[Meadmaker]

Are you accusing those who promote a lack of religion in schools of intolerance?


If "promoting a lack of religion" means not allowing the singing of Christmas carols, yes.

[jj]

There's plenty of intolerance to go around. You can all share.

So, if I don't want to participate in your religion, I'm intolerant?

Really, now? Could you explain further?

[Melendwyr]

Yes. Perhaps you don't understand the significance of "preaching to the damned".

Considering your posting history, it's more likely that you approve of people wasting their time on pointless, hopeless tasks.

[jj]

Well, then, you really ought to be complaining about the showing of the Opera "Faust", because it is a Christian play.


Really. Then one being told that one must sing "Glory to God" and one being told that one must watch an opera (notice the difference in participation, please) is somehow the same?

I object strongly to seeing people forced to participate in religious activities. That does not mean that I feel they should not be studied, AS LONG AS SAID STUDY IS FROM A SECULAR POINT OF VIEW. (In a public school.)

In a way, this mirrors my point regarding evolution. I think that every high school student should be able to explain what the TOE is, and what the evidence for it is, accurately, concisely, and easily, in order to graduate. You notice I don't say they should have to accept it.

[Meadmaker]

Perhaps you don't understand the significance of "preaching to the damned".

Considering your posting history, it's more likely that you approve of people wasting their time on pointless, hopeless tasks.

You have a good point.



On the subject of "tolerance". In order to be "tolerant" you have to decide that there is something you don't like, but you will "tolerate" it. So, if you don't like Christmas carols, but you decide not to make a fuss about it, you are "tolerating" the carols. If you call your lawyer to make them stop, you are not "tolerating" the carols. I happen to think Christmas carols are something that everyone ought to tolerate.

If the teacher had tried to slip in something from some other culture in addition to the Christmas carols, and the local fundies complained, then I would accuse them of intolerance. If they get bent out of shape if someone wants to sing "Lord of Light" (a pagan solstice song I heard once a long time ago) I would tell them to shut up, because it's just a song. So is "Silent Night".


(That's one reason I wonder what was in the concert. I read one line of one news story that referred to a multicultural program. If that article was correct, and lots of cultures were welcome, unless they happened to be the culture that the majority of the townsfolk, then I say hangin's too good for her. However, I would hope it wasn't that extreme. I would hope that it was completely secular, and she just was being overly sensitive to the whiners.)

[ImaginalDisc]

You have a good point.



On the subject of "tolerance". In order to be "tolerant" you have to decide that there is something you don't like, but you will "tolerate" it. So, if you don't like Christmas carols, but you decide not to make a fuss about it, you are "tolerating" the carols. If you call your lawyer to make them stop, you are not "tolerating" the carols. I happen to think Christmas carols are something that everyone ought to tolerate.

Wow, way to dodge. Meadmaker, will you admit that there's a clear different between compelling children to sing songs, and asking children to passively wach a film?

[TragicMonkey]

People, please. Let's all just agree that all cultures suck, as do all religions including the lack of religion. Why? Because cultures and religions are invented by people, and all people suck.

[Meadmaker]

Wow, way to dodge. Meadmaker, will you admit that there's a clear different between compelling children to sing songs, and asking children to passively wach a film?

ID, if someone disagrees about what is important, that doesn't constitute a dodge.


But, to your question. Yes, I agree there's a difference.

And the difference is irrelevant to what I was saying. If you think it's just horrible that someone might be asked to sing a Christmas carol, then you really need to adjust your priorities. It's not so bad. Try it. Learn the tune to "Greensleeves" and substitute "What Child is This". You will find that at the end of the song, you do not have a sudden urge to teach Intelligent Design.

How about a compromise? They can sing Christmas songs, but only if they are in a different language. Tonight's program will be "Stiehle Nacht", "Adeste Fidelis", and "Mi Chamokah". (That last one isn't a Christmas song, or a holiday song of any sort, but no one in Bennett Colorado will know what it is, and they will think "Chamokah" is "Chanukah", and they are being multicultural.)

[jj]

If you think it's just horrible that someone might be asked to sing a Christmas carol, then you really need to adjust your priorities. It's not so bad. Try it. Learn the tune to "Greensleeves" and substitute "What Child is This". You will find that at the end of the song, you do not have a sudden urge to teach Intelligent Design.


In other words, it's ok to force schoolchildren to worship your god, meaningfully or not, because it's "not so bad"?

Sorry, no.

[BPSCG]

How about a compromise? They can sing Christmas songs, but only if they are in a different language. Tonight's program will be "Stiehle Nacht", "Adeste Fidelis", and "Mi Chamokah". (That last one isn't a Christmas song, or a holiday song of any sort, but no one in Bennett Colorado will know what it is, and they will think "Chamokah" is "Chanukah", and they are being multicultural.)Hey, if that Jew Felix Mendelssohn could write Hark! The Herald Angels Sing and not fall over and die from a fit of apoplexy, I think an eight-year-old kid whose parents are atheists can stand to sing Silent Night or Stille Nacht or whatever and the world will continue to spin on its axis.

[Mycroft]

Perhaps you don't understand the significance of "preaching to the damned".

It would be the opposite of preaching to the choir, would it not? Meaning, rather than preaching to those who already hold your opinion, you're preaching to those who will not be convinced under any circumstances.

Considering your posting history, it's more likely that you approve of people wasting their time on pointless, hopeless tasks.

Just because the person you are preaching to isn’t convinced does not mean your efforts don’t have a positive effect. Resigning doesn't accomplish anything, drawing national attention will.

[Melendwyr]

Just because the person you are preaching to isn’t convinced does not mean your efforts don’t have a positive effect. Resigning doesn't accomplish anything, drawing national attention will. Resigning drew national attention, Mycroft. That's why we're talking about it now.

[jj]

Hey, if that Jew Felix Mendelssohn could write Hark! The Herald Angels Sing and not fall over and die from a fit of apoplexy, I think an eight-year-old kid whose parents are atheists can stand to sing Silent Night or Stille Nacht or whatever and the world will continue to spin on its axis.


And why is that? Because a bunch of children being forced to worship a deity that may or may not exist, that they may or may not believe in, on government-funded time, has no effect on the world's axis.

Well, one might point out that that very well could have sime reading on the actual question of deific existance, but that's for another thread, the point here is that you are saying it's ok for the governmen to fund religious worship.

[ImaginalDisc]

ID, if someone disagrees about what is important, that doesn't constitute a dodge.


But, to your question. Yes, I agree there's a difference.

And the difference is irrelevant to what I was saying. If you think it's just horrible that someone might be asked to sing a Christmas carol, then you really need to adjust your priorities. It's not so bad. Try it. Learn the tune to "Greensleeves" and substitute "What Child is This". You will find that at the end of the song, you do not have a sudden urge to teach Intelligent Design.

How about a compromise? They can sing Christmas songs, but only if they are in a different language. Tonight's program will be "Stiehle Nacht", "Adeste Fidelis", and "Mi Chamokah". (That last one isn't a Christmas song, or a holiday song of any sort, but no one in Bennett Colorado will know what it is, and they will think "Chamokah" is "Chanukah", and they are being multicultural.)

You're in luck! There's already a compromise between atheists like me, christians, like you, and hindus like the Kumars, it's called the seperation of church and state, and that circumvents the whole issue.

[BPSCG]

Well, one might point out that that very well could have sime reading on the actual question of deific existance, but that's for another thread, the point here is that you are saying it's ok for the governmen to fund religious worship.No, I'm saying I think Hark! The Herald Angels Sing is a good tune, even if I think the lyrics are a buncha nonsense and I like hearing it, and the world isn't going to come to an end if an eight-year-old sings it.

And I think The First Noel is pig doots and I don't want to hear it in school or on the subway (don't ask...), or even in a church.

And don't get me started on that goddam little drummer boy...

But Jesus M. Christ, there are people out there who, as I write this, are plotting to kill as many of us as they can, and the Social Security system is going broke and congress doesn't give a @#$%, and the Washington Nationals baseball team still doesn't have an owner. Christmas carols in schools strikes me as de minimus.

[ImaginalDisc]

No, I'm saying I think Hark! The Herald Angels Sing is a good tune, even if I think the lyrics are a buncha nonsense and I like hearing it, and the world isn't going to come to an end if an eight-year-old sings it.

And I think The First Noel is pig doots and I don't want to hear it in school or on the subway (don't ask...), or even in a church.

And don't get me started on that goddam little drummer boy...

But Jesus M. Christ, there are people out there who, as I write this, are plotting to kill as many of us as they can, and the Social Security system is going broke and congress doesn't give a @#$%, and the Washington Nationals baseball team still doesn't have an owner. Christmas carols in schools strikes me as de minimus.

Firstly, I haven't seen anyone here argue that no one should be allowed to sing Christmas Carrols anywhere, only that children should not be compelled to sing them by the school system run by the government, funded by the tax payers, and which is required to abide the seperation of church and state. Lay off the strawman.

Secondly, just because you're losing the discussion, it's poor manners to try to dimish the significance of the topic. If you don't think it's worth discussing, stop discussing it.

[BPSCG]

Secondly, just because you're losing the discussion, it's poor manners to try to dimish the significance of the topic. If you don't think it's worth discussing, stop discussing it.I see your avatar and find it strangely compelling...

[jj]

And don't get me started on that goddam little drummer boy...

The point is that the kid has to sing it in a government-funded operation.

Now, as to "little drummer boy" expect a PM :)

[ImaginalDisc]

I see your avatar and find it strangely compelling...

But of course, "They Live!"

[Mycroft]

Resigning drew national attention, Mycroft. That's why we're talking about it now.

Such "national attention" that you bring it to our attention by way of a blog called "Panda's thumb".

[CapelDodger]

Such "national attention" that you bring it to our attention by way of a blog called "Panda's thumb".
Now it has international attention. From little acorns ...

[Meadmaker]

You're in luck! There's already a compromise between atheists like me, christians, like you, and hindus like the Kumars, it's called the seperation of church and state, and that circumvents the whole issue.

There aren't a whole lot of Christians like me.

If you type "mi chamokah" into the yahoo search engine, it asks, "Did you mean 'mi chanukah'?"

On google, there are a couple of hits, and it asks, "Did you mean 'mi chamocha'?" That one has lots of hits.

The nature of "tolerance" is that the thing you are "tolerating" is not something that is like you. It's interesting that you would leap to the conclusion that someone defending Christmas carols would be a Christian.

[Melendwyr]

Such "national attention" that you bring it to our attention by way of a blog called "Panda's thumb". Where have you been for the past three years? Lodging your cranium within some of your inaccessible orifices, I presume.

The Panda's Thumb has been the primary source of information regarding the aspects of the Culture War that affected and concerned the subject of Biology, with a lesser emphasis on other aspects of the Culture War.

[ImaginalDisc]

There aren't a whole lot of Christians like me.

If you type "mi chamokah" into the yahoo search engine, it asks, "Did you mean 'mi chanukah'?"

On google, there are a couple of hits, and it asks, "Did you mean 'mi chamocha'?" That one has lots of hits.

The nature of "tolerance" is that the thing you are "tolerating" is not something that is like you. It's interesting that you would leap to the conclusion that someone defending Christmas carols would be a Christian.

It's not a leap, it's memmory. You're mentioned you're a christian before.

Regarding tolerance, I tolerate other's people religions when it's not me or my kid being forced to participate in it, thank you very much. How would you feel if your child was compelled to participate in in another religion's practices by their school? Again, you don't need to worry about that, thanks to the seperation of church and state.

[Kevin_Lowe]

As a compromise, I suggest that for every christian song the kids are forced to sing, they should sing one song about how christianity is a load of old cobblers.

[Meadmaker]

It's not a leap, it's memmory. You're mentioned you're a christian before.

Regarding tolerance, I tolerate other's people religions when it's not me or my kid being forced to participate in it, thank you very much. How would you feel if your child was compelled to participate in in another religion's practices by their school? Again, you don't need to worry about that, thanks to the seperation of church and state.

Actually I needn't worry about it because my kid goes to a private school. Any guesses what sort of private school? Hint: I know what "mi chamocha" means, and you don't.

But last year, he went to public school, where he sang Christmas carols and Chanukah songs.


As for your memory, I think you might be mistaken. Perhaps you were misled by some of the positions I've taken. See my sig for an explanation of where I suspect you got the idea that I was a Christian.

(In case anyone thinks it is important, I am a member of a Jewish synagogue, but I don't actually believe in God.)

[ImaginalDisc]

Actually I needn't worry about it because my kid goes to a private school. Any guesses what sort of private school? Hint: I know what "mi chamocha" means, and you don't.

But last year, he went to public school, where he sang Christmas carols and Chanukah songs.


As for your memory, I think you might be mistaken. Perhaps you were misled by some of the positions I've taken. See my sig for an explanation of where I suspect you got the idea that I was a Christian.

(In case anyone thinks it is important, I am a member of a Jewish synagogue, but I don't actually believe in God.)

Mea culpa. In any case, you're free to let your kid do as you please, but that doesn't mean I'd let my kid be coerced.

[Melendwyr]

Oh, sure Meadmaker is an atheist.

Did I mention that I'm a gay lesbian African-American left-handed color-blind Amish plumber? This of course makes me qualified to weigh in on any discussions of topics related to my various minoritisms.

[ImaginalDisc]

Oh, sure Meadmaker is an atheist.

Did I mention that I'm a gay lesbian African-American left-handed color-blind Amish plumber? This of course makes me qualified to weigh in on any discussions of topics related to my various minoritisms.

Well, I'm a chrome plated robotic atheist zombie squid pirate myself, but we're not here to dicuss my inevitable conquest of the earth.