Who says fundies don't commit intellectual suicide?!

[the_ignored]

Check out this site (http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/contra_craig/contra_craig.htm) that examines apologist William Lane Craig.

In my twenty minute discussion with him, in the process of getting his signature, I asked him about his views on evidence (which to me seem very close to self-induced insanity). In short, I set up the following scenario:

Dr. Craig, for the sake of argument let's pretend that a time machine gets built. You and I hop in it, and travel back to the day before Easter, 33 AD. We park it outside the tomb of Jesus. We wait. Easter morning rolls around, and nothing happens. We continue to wait. After several weeks of waiting, still nothing happens. There is no resurrection- Jesus is quietly rotting away in the tomb._

I asked him, given this scenario, would he then give up his Christianity? Having seen with his own eyes that there was no resurrection of Jesus, having been an eyewitness to the fact that Christianity has been based upon a fraud and a lie, would he NOW renounce Christianity? His answer was shocking, and quite unexpected.

He told me, face to face, that he would STILL believe in Jesus, he would STILL believe in the resurrection, and he would STILL remain a Christian. When asked, in light of his being a personal eyewitness to the fact that there WAS no resurrection, he replied that due to the witness of the "holy spirit" within him, he would assume a trick of some sort had been played on him while watching Jesus' tomb. This self-induced blindness astounded me.

Dr. William Lane Craig, double PhD protector and promoter of Christianity-_ he'd rather discount his own objective experience as an eyewitness, and instead go with his inner feelings- yet he wants everyone else to go with what he claims are eyewitness accounts to the supposed resurrection. Given the chance via a time machine, he would discount the objective reality
of the real world, in favor of warm subjective inner voices and fuzzy_ feelings. In short, in order to close his rational mind off entirely from the objective outside world, he would rather practice self-inflicted insanity- i.e. deliberately putting himself out of touch with reality.

quotes from Craig's book ironically titled: "Reasonable Faith"
"Thus, although arguments and evidence may be used to support the believer's faith, they are never properly the basis of the faith."5 p. 34


"Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former [i.e. "Holy Spirit"] which must take precedence over the latter [i.e. "argument & evidence"], not vice versa."2 p. 36

[Upchurch]

This is why (and rightly so) that Randi never takes on religious beliefs, only paranormal ones. Religion is so ingrained in our society that even hard evidence will not sway the believers, as evidenced in the quotes above.

The paranormal, on the other hand, isn't quite so ingrained and material evidence will convince some people that it is phoney.

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by the_ignored
Check out this site (http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/contra_craig/contra_craig.htm) that examines apologist William Lane Craig.



quotes from Craig's book ironically titled: "Reasonable Faith"
p. 34


p. 36

Let me ask you this question. If you went back in a time machine and witnessed Jesus Christ physically resurrected from the dead would you then believe and become a Christian? I look forward to your answer. :D

[Skeptical Greg]

... And the fact that I cannot see, hear or feel God cannot possibly be a clue that God doesn't exist..
The obvious answer, is that there is something wrong with me.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by LCBOY


Let me ask you this question. If you went back in a time machine and witnessed Jesus Christ physically resurrected from the dead would you then believe and become a Christian? I look forward to your answer. :D

I would believe that Jesus had risen from the dead.

But I have a feeling, that being a Christian would take on a whole new meaning, if Jesus really arose from the dead..;)

[the_ignored]

Originally posted by LCBOY


Let me ask you this question. If you went back in a time machine and witnessed Jesus Christ physically resurrected from the dead would you then believe and become a Christian? I look forward to your answer. :D
If he had, I would convert. What did you think I would say. Now, it's your turn. If he didn't rise, then what would you do?

[c4ts]

It's amazing he would jump through so many loopholes to stay Christian if he were proven wrong. Thomas the apostle would sit there waiting by the tomb for three weeks, and after nothing happened, he'd just say "I knew it!" and be done with the whole Christianity thing.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by LCBOY

If you went back in a time machine and witnessed Jesus Christ physically resurrected from the dead would you then believe and become a Christian? I look forward to your answer. :D I don't think I would, actually. I mean, I've seen magicians do some incredible stuff, but I don't automatically believe what my senses tell me.

Now, if we sent a medical team in immediately after Jesus died and verified his death and monitored his condition through out the three days, including the resurrection itself, and no errors were left unaccounted for, then I would consider believing.

[the_ignored]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I don't think I would, actually. I mean, I've seen magicians do some incredible stuff, but I don't automatically believe what my senses tell me.

Now, if we sent a medical team in immediately after Jesus died and verified his death and monitored his condition through out the three days, including the resurrection itself, and no errors were left unaccounted for, then I would consider believing.

Heh. If he was to quote your response to his fellow fundies, guess which part of it he'd be leaving out, just to give the impression that atheists refuse to believe, no matter what?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I don't think I would, actually. I mean, I've seen magicians do some incredible stuff, but I don't automatically believe what my senses tell me.

Now, if we sent a medical team in immediately after Jesus died and verified his death and monitored his condition through out the three days, including the resurrection itself, and no errors were left unaccounted for, then I would consider believing.

I have to say I agree with you, my first thought would be "well maybe he wasn't really dead"

[FireGarden]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I don't think I would, actually. I mean, I've seen magicians do some incredible stuff, but I don't automatically believe what my senses tell me.

Now, if we sent a medical team in immediately after Jesus died and verified his death and monitored his condition through out the three days, including the resurrection itself, and no errors were left unaccounted for, then I would consider believing.


How do you fake your death when a Roman soldier is going to test the fact by sticking a sword in your side? If you were going to argue mutant healing powers or alien technology I'd be with you, but a magic trick? Hardly. (JC must have invented the telescoping blade and tomato ketchup)

If a guy hung on a cross in the blazing heat for a few days, was pronounced dead by the guy that stabbed him with a sword and then lay in a sealed tomb for a few more days without any outside assistence (or food or water), and then got up and walked, I would think that something was amiss with my world view. I would not jump to any particular conclusion, but I would have to admit that I was wrong about something. (Even if it's simply the extent to which a magician would and could go in order to fool everyone)

It's interesting that you say (to paraphrase) that you would like to hear the testimony of trained doctors. (All skeptics have to rely on witness testimony at some point on some subject) But you don't mention calling in a trained magician. And that in spite of your own (apparent) lack of expertise and James Randi's repeated advice that magicians should be called in when fakery is suspected. Mmmmm, ..... and the "no errors" get out clause.... Are your emotions getting in the way of your objectivity?


edited to mention the ressurection :)

[Marvel Frozen]

If you went back in a time machine and witnessed Jesus Christ physically resurrected from the dead would you then believe and become a Christian? I look forward to your answer.

If I saw Jesus walk out of his grave, I think it would be a safer assumption to assume he wasn't dead in the first place. There have been many cases in the past where someone was thought to be dead, and it later turned out they weren't. Back in the olden days they didn't exactly have good methods of determining when someone was dead. Although, as has already been stated, if it was adequately verified that he was dead, then it would be a different story.

[c4ts]

Jesus would have to do more than come out of that cave in order to convince me, anyway. He would have to prove that he was actually dead when he was carried in there.

[hgc]

Might I suggest that this discussion has reached a cul-de-sac?

If you posit a hypothetical, then it helps to agree to a lot of assumptions so as to narrow the question down to the core.

The hypothetical in this case is what if you saw Jesus rise from the grave with your own eyes, would that be enough to make you a believer? A lot of the answers have to do with believing what you saw to be truly that Jesus rose from the dead. But the whole hypothetical hinges on the reality that it really happened that way. Otherwise we devolve into a discussion of evidence to establish what really happened, which is a very interesting topic, and much discussed in these forums -- but not helpful to this discussion.

On the other hand, for atheists, it's a tough question to field, because it's basically asking what would you think if the whole universe were different from what you believe it to be? I for one couldn't answer it, because I wouldn't be me; I would be a being in that universe.

[c4ts]

Did nobody notice my reference to Doubting Thomas?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by hgc
Might I suggest that this discussion has reached a cul-de-sac?

If you posit a hypothetical, then it helps to agree to a lot of assumptions so as to narrow the question down to the core.

The hypothetical in this case is what if you saw Jesus rise from the grave with your own eyes, would that be enough to make you a believer? A lot of the answers have to do with believing what you saw to be truly that Jesus rose from the dead. But the whole hypothetical hinges on the reality that it really happened that way. Otherwise we devolve into a discussion of evidence to establish what really happened, which is a very interesting topic, and much discussed in these forums -- but not helpful to this discussion.

On the other hand, for atheists, it's a tough question to field, because it's basically asking what would you think if the whole universe were different from what you believe it to be? I for one couldn't answer it, because I wouldn't be me; I would be a being in that universe.


In other words...:

" If things were different, they'd be different..":)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda

Are your emotions getting in the way of your objectivity?Extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary evidence. "Hey, I'm God" is about as extra ordinary as it comes. I figured I was letting him off easy with a low standard of evidence.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Diogenes


In other words...:

" If things were different, they'd be different..":)
Couldn'ta said it better myself. Maybe in another place, another time...

Btw, it wasn't meant to totally devalue hypotheticals, but some are just out of reach.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by hgc

Couldn'ta said it better myself. Maybe in another place, another time...

Btw, it wasn't meant to totally devalue hypotheticals, but some are just out of reach.

I didn't take it that way at all.. Maybe someone else will. ( someone who has little besides hypotheticals to work with....)

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by the_ignored

If he had, I would convert. What did you think I would say. Now, it's your turn. If he didn't rise, then what would you do?

If I went to the tomb and waited and waited and waited...and Jesus just rotted then I would know that my faith was based on a lie and I would renounce it and move on with my life. :)

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I don't think I would, actually. I mean, I've seen magicians do some incredible stuff, but I don't automatically believe what my senses tell me.

Now, if we sent a medical team in immediately after Jesus died and verified his death and monitored his condition through out the three days, including the resurrection itself, and no errors were left unaccounted for, then I would consider believing.

Not to be an a@# but how is this different from what the "christian fundie" said? :D

[the_ignored]

Originally posted by LCBOY


If I went to the tomb and waited and waited and waited...and Jesus just rotted then I would know that my faith was based on a lie and I would renounce it and move on with my life. :)

Thank you. You've got a lot more intellectual integrity than that "William Craig" guy. Almost enough to give me hope. And as I said..if I knew (had him checked out) that he was dead, and he rose again, I too, would believe, although some of the questions I'd ask him would likely get me tossed into hell anyway...:(

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by Diogenes


I would believe that Jesus had risen from the dead.

But I have a feeling, that being a Christian would take on a whole new meaning, if Jesus really arose from the dead..;)

This is an interesting point. Actually seeing Jesus raised from the dead as opposed to believing what the Gospel writers said and wrote is an accurate account would give people a different perspective.

[FireGarden]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary evidence. "Hey, I'm God" is about as extra ordinary as it comes. I figured I was letting him off easy with a low standard of evidence.

Sorry, Upchurch,
But I don't think that you're setting any standard for the evidence. You left yourself an out (as long as "no errors were left unaccounted for"), which means that you don't ever have to change your mind.

I can see it all happening:
Doc: He was dead, even beginning to decompose. No brain activity, no heart beat, just a growing stink.

UpChurch: Ah, but maybe you've made a mistake.

Doc: No, we checked everything. He lay there still as dead meat for three days then suddenly got up and walked.

Upchurch: You can't have checked EVERYTHING. There's a mistake somewhere.

Personally, I can simply admit it.
If I saw Jesus rise from the dead I would not automatically believe he was the son of god. Lazarus rose from the dead (apparently) and he wasn't the son of god. If Jesus rose from the dead then there could be dozens of explanations - many of them less TLOP-defying than supernatural deities. I wouldn't commit myself to any of them without further information.

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by the_ignored


Thank you. You've got a lot more intellectual integrity than that "William Craig" guy. Almost enough to give me hope. And as I said..if I knew (had him checked out) that he was dead, and he rose again, I too, would believe, although some of the questions I'd ask him would likely get me tossed into hell anyway...:(

Not so! :D He would sit down with you and get to know you and address your questions. Remember Thomas also was a skeptic. He wouldn't believe unless he saw Jesus in person and could touch Him.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by LCBOY


Not to be an a@# but how is this different from what the "christian fundie" said? :D

Because he is allowing himself to be proven "wrong."

It happens in the bible story. Jesus comes out of the cave, Thomas says "if you were really dead, prove it," so Jesus sticks Thomas's hand in one of his wounds, and it comes out the other side. It's disgusting, but it's a really good way to prove you would be dead under normal circumstances.

[Roadtoad]

If it were me, and I did not see Jesus come out of the tomb, I would renounce my faith. If Jesus weren't dead when he went into the tomb, I would also renounce my faith. The basis for the faith would have been removed. That's the only honest answer.

The Apostle Paul said it: if Jesus had not risen from the tomb, then we are the most pitiable creatures on Earth. We've then fallen for a fraud.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
The Apostle Paul said it: if Jesus had not risen from the tomb, then we are the most pitiable creatures on Earth. We've then fallen for a fraud.

And this is why we need Mr. T to pitty us!

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by c4ts


And this is why we need Mr. T to pitty us!

Man, you need to quit watching those "All Your Base..." videos. :D

In the meantime, I'm gonna throw on some Natalie Merchant...

[Yahzi]

The problem is that just because Jesus comes back to life doesn't mean Peter, Paul, and the other authors of the Bible are right. It doesn't even mean Jesus is right about why he came back to life.

It's like finding one white crow. Jesus failing to come back to life destroys a tenet of Xianity: but Jesus coming back to life is merely a violation of physical law. Maybe Zeus did it.

It would indicate that the strict materialist might be quite wrong, but how you get from "there is a spiritual world" to "kill people that wear mixed fabrics" requires a considerable leap of logic.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Roadtoad


Man, you need to quit watching those "All Your Base..." videos. :D

In the meantime, I'm gonna throw on some Natalie Merchant...

:confused: What does Mr. T have to do with AYBABTU?

[Dancing David]

Yahzi! Way to go what a point!

and I always thought that Jesu was like bread, you don't bake it until it's done with the second rising.

Peace

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by c4ts


:confused: What does Mr. T have to do with AYBABTU?

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view.php?id=12798

"Watch this one, Fool!"

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by LCBOY


Let me ask you this question. If you went back in a time machine and witnessed Jesus Christ physically resurrected from the dead would you then believe and become a Christian? I look forward to your answer. :D

I'd probably kill him again, thus avoiding all of the damage that christianity has done to the world.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


I'd probably kill him again, thus avoiding all of the damage that christianity has done to the world.


Glad you don't have a time machine! Yikes, how many other's (assuming there was a Joseph of Galillee that claimed to be the son of God) would you decide to off because you deem the historical results of their actions to be damaging?

Columbus?

Magellan?

Martin Luther?

Ghandi?

Napoleon?

How would you determine the undesirables? Whats to say if you offed an offending person it would not just result in an individual who's influence was equally damaging?

[c4ts]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


I'd probably kill him again, thus avoiding all of the damage that christianity has done to the world. \

Killing him wouldn't change a thing, just make you the bad guy. Then people would hold inquisitions and torture Jews using the allegation that they are your decendents, even though you have nothing to do with it.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe

How would you determine the undesirables? Whats to say if you offed an offending person it would not just result in an individual who's influence was equally damaging?

I take it that you are against the death penalty. Me, I'm all for getting rid of undesirables. This Jesus was a criminal in the books, he was sentenced to death, I'd just be insuring that his sentenced be passed.

"Killing him wouldn't change a thing, just make you the bad guy. "

Considering the history of what this Jesus fellow supposedly did and the influence the myth has, I will have to disagree. Killing him would change many things. I'd kill one person to save a million.

"Then people would hold inquisitions and torture Jews using the allegation that they are your decendents, even though you have nothing to do with it."

Pure speculation. People would find other excuses for war, but the Jewish holocaust was very much influenced by the christian religion.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken




"Killing him wouldn't change a thing, just make you the bad guy. "

Considering the history of what this Jesus fellow supposedly did and the influence the myth has, I will have to disagree. Killing him would change many things. I'd kill one person to save a million.

But history might not change at all, no matter what you do in the past. You might be able to travel back in time and assassinate Hitler before he even gets rejected from art school, kill him, and when you return to your own time, World War II will still have happened as is does now.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by c4ts


But history might not change at all, no matter what you do in the past. You might be able to travel back in time and assassinate Hitler before he even gets rejected from art school, kill him, and when you return to your own time, World War II will still have happened as is does now.

Ya, now we are talking about time-paradox and rebound. Since time travel is improbable, I'll just quit now.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken



"Then people would hold inquisitions and torture Jews using the allegation that they are your decendents, even though you have nothing to do with it."

Pure speculation....

The following is speculation thaiboxerken

I take it that you are against the death penalty. Killing him would change many things. I'd kill one person to save a million.

How do you determine which individual to kill to save a million? Who deserves to die, who deserves to live? Who is undesirable? Who is desirable?

You say you would get rid of the undesirables but do not explain how you come to the conclusion that the person is undesirable.

I am not against the death penalty, btw, I just do not see compelling evidence that death penalties are effective economically, or socially, and that they effectively reduce crime. On an emotional level I can easily react to heinous crimes and say "lynch him, gas him".

The death penalty is an emperiment, an experiement that we can learn from, but I am not certain it is an ethical experiement.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe

How do you determine which individual to kill to save a million?

History (or what is to be the future) determines it, with my time-travelling ability, I already know which individual is responsible. Remember, we're not talking about "if's and buts", we already know the future if action isn't taken.


Who deserves to die, who deserves to live? Who is undesirable? Who is desirable?

Bad people according to my own power. We could, however, set up a time travelling police force to place these people on trial.


You say you would get rid of the undesirables but do not explain how you come to the conclusion that the person is undesirable.

The history of what the person did, or is about to do, will sway me. Hitler, for example, would be terminated. I would know, without a doubt, what atrocities this person will commit, so I would have no problem being judge, jury and executioner. It's a good think that there really aren't psychics.

I am not against the death penalty, btw, I just do not see compelling evidence that death penalties are effective economically, or socially, and that they effectively reduce crime. On an emotional level I can easily react to heinous crimes and say "lynch him, gas him".

The death penalty prevents the murderer from killing again.


The death penalty is an emperiment, an experiement that we can learn from, but I am not certain it is an ethical experiement.

It's hardly an experiment, it is just how society has decided to stop murderers from killing again.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by LCBOY


Let me ask you this question. If you went back in a time machine and witnessed Jesus Christ physically resurrected from the dead would you then believe and become a Christian? I look forward to your answer. :D

If he actually did rise from the dead (which is a stunt done by 20 or so risen saviors of other religions), then I would assume there would be written eyewitness accounts of the event.
These accounts would agree on key points that the current Gospels fail. Josephus and all the 'historians' of the time would have been privy to and written about this stupendous event. But since he didn't - they don't.