Compassion for Theists?

[Piggy]

I'm an atheist skeptic in the Bible Belt. Often tempted to leave family and friends and light out for the territory where people have a little more sense and tolerance.

It's hard to feel free here. You feel like if everyone knew what you thought, you'd be an outcast. In my case, my job would be in danger, and many in my family would disown me if they knew the full extent of my "unbelief", that I am unsavable and unrepentant -- I'd have no access to my niece and nephew, no chance to give them my perspective on things.

Meanwhile, the Xians go on about how they're "persecuted". Hell, that's like saying white people are persecuted, or men are persecuted, or rich people are persecuted, although you can certainly find fringe pundits willing to sell that bill o' goods, too.

Still, we can't just shut up and sit down. We can't sit idly by and let the "God squad" erode our liberties, teach nonsense to our kids, and stuff the pockets of charlatans.

But in the last week I've had two encounters that put me in a quandry.

The details don't matter. But here's the gist....

Most folks who believe in all that religious claptrap are sincere. They can't see past it. And they're never going to.

They're never going to.

Obviously, the tendency toward religious thinking is built into our brains. We are pattern-seeking, meaning-creative, anthropo-centric critters. If all memory and evidence of religion were destroyed at midnight EST tonight, it would rise up again spontaneously tomorrow. People would "see" and re-invent God all over again, and nothing we say could stop them.

So my question is this....

How can one be a compassionate skeptic?

CAN one be a compassionate skeptic?

[Dogdoctor]

You have to look at the big picture. Who are you? What do you value in life? Who are these religious people? What do they value in life? Can you come up with a workable compromise. Work towards that. Re-evaluate your beliefs again and again. Express your ideas to others again and again to check for your blind spots. Change yourself and learn to live with them because they will be around for a long time. If you aren't willing to suffer for your beliefs then you may need to be silent about them. So yes you can be a compassionate skeptic, but the real question is do you want to be one?
eta: I went to add something on to this and it posted all by itself by me clicking on the s button.

[Raphael]

One can be a compassionate human being, regardless of being a skeptic or not. If the tendency for religious thinking is "built into our brains", why do you, or I for that matter, not believe? If all evidence and memory of Religion were destroyed at midnight, perhaps You and I would become some of those "people" that re-invent religion.

[Piggy]

If the tendency for religious thinking is "built into our brains", why do you, or I for that matter, not believe? If all evidence and memory of Religion were destroyed at midnight, perhaps You and I would become some of those "people" that re-invent religion.
We don't believe because it's just a tendency, not an absolute. Most people will exhibit religious thinking, but not all. I doubt that you and I would be among those who would re-invent religion, because once you've truly seen behind the curtain, and accepted what you've seen, you can never really believe in the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz again.

[slingblade]

Compassion? Every time a Christian screws me over, and doesn't even kiss me first, dammit, I find I have less and less compassion, consideration, or concern for the group as a whole.

I mean, man, it just happened to me, again. A supposedly and self-professed Christian woman used lies, threats, yelling, anger...all those good, compassionate Christian values, to get me kicked out of my position. Damn it.

I try, though. I've met some wonderful people on this forum who are also Christians, and they're just good folks. I've no problem with them, and think their faith does them credit. But every time a Christian behaves in an "unChristian" manner and it does me harm, I develop a little more hatred. Sorry, but I do.

[TragicMonkey]

What people believe, what people believe they believe, and how people act are three entirely separate things. Only most people manage to delude themselves into thinking they're not.

[Piggy]

You have to look at the big picture. Who are you? What do you value in life? Who are these religious people? What do they value in life?
Sorry, but I don't understand all that. I'm not one for philosophy. But I will say, "these religious people" are my family, my co-workers, my fellow citizens.
Can you come up with a workable compromise.
No. Fundamentalists don't compromise.
Re-evaluate your beliefs again and again. Express your ideas to others again and again to check for your blind spots.
I already do that. They don't. That's a big part of the quandry, don't you see.
Change yourself and learn to live with them because they will be around for a long time.
Well, that's the point of the post, isn't it? HOW?
If you aren't willing to suffer for your beliefs then you may need to be silent about them.
It's not a question of suffering for my beliefs. It's a question of actually making a difference. The fundamentalists have decided to suffer for their beliefs, and look where that's gotten them, where that's gotten all of us. Doesn't seem like a very good tactic to me.

you can be a compassionate skeptic, but the real question is do you want to be one?
Not really. I'd much rather dictate to others that they should be rational and reasonable and give up all this nonsense and superstition. But that's not going to work. So the "real question" isn't what I want to be, but what it's best to be, what it's most effective to be. The real question is "What can work?"

[Raphael]

Piggy:
The beliefs of most people are shaped by circumstance. A Muslim mother rears a Muslim child. I was raised in an atheist household, I am an atheist. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that had I been that Muslim child, that I would automatically see thru the Religious environment I was in. I'm interested in your circumstance. Do you identify an event(s) that pulled you from the Christian flock?

[Piggy]

I've met some wonderful people on this forum who are also Christians, and they're just good folks. I've no problem with them, and think their faith does them credit. But every time a Christian behaves in an "unChristian" manner and it does me harm, I develop a little more hatred. Sorry, but I do.
I'm with you, brother. I get angry.

I get angry with my mother, who raised us all in the church even though she knew it was a lie, just so we'd be "socialized", and who endorses my sister-in-law telling Xian lies to my neice and nephew because they'll "figure it out later".

I get angry at the assault on science by people who would never cure a disease or solve a real problem because their perception of reality is fundamentally (no pun intended) warped. I get angry at how many kids are lied to, who are denied the true jaw-dropping mysteries of this world and given a sham god in their place.

But how can I be angry at people who just can't help but believe? How can I morally be angry at people who are doing their best by their own lights, but who still contribute to all the evils of religion?

What do I say, how do I behave, toward people who honestly believe, with every fiber of their being, that if I don't convert, I'm going to be tortured forever, and so they try to save me out of love? It's them who are pitiful, who are wasting their lives on an illusion. How can I be angry at them?

It's not their fault that they can't see past it. They're not duped willingly. They really believe this stuff. They're victims of a vicious self-verifying scheme of thought, controlled by madmen and manipulators.

That's my dilemma.

[ruach1]

[QUOTE]I'm an atheist skeptic in the Bible Belt. Often tempted to leave family and friends and light out for the territory where people have a little more sense and tolerance.
An atheist/skeptic in the Bible Belt--wow, I feel for you. I've been there, sorta' and believe me (us) it ain't no fun. However, you might want to consider fully leaving family and friends. (Guess I really didn't need to say that, now did I?)
It's hard to feel free here. You feel like if everyone knew what you thought, you'd be an outcast. In my case, my job would be in danger, and many in my family would disown me if they knew the full extent of my "unbelief", that I am unsavable and unrepentant -- I'd have no access to my niece and nephew, no chance to give them my perspective on things.
Ouch. More pain.
Meanwhile, the Xians go on about how they're "persecuted". Hell, that's like saying white people are persecuted, or men are persecuted, or rich people are persecuted, although you can certainly find fringe pundits willing to sell that bill o' goods, too.
Being "persecuted" is a lame power game. Don't buy it. Look at the news. Look at history, and there you'll find the real persecuted people.
Still, we can't just shut up and sit down. We can't sit idly by and let the "God squad" erode our liberties, teach nonsense to our kids, and stuff the pockets of charlatans.
Choose your battles. If I had to fight everything that came my way like this, I'd probably go nuts.
But in the last week I've had two encounters that put me in a quandry.

The details don't matter. But here's the gist....

Most folks who believe in all that religious claptrap are sincere. They can't see past it. And they're never going to.

They're never going to.

Obviously, the tendency toward religious thinking is built into our brains. We are pattern-seeking, meaning-creative, anthropo-centric critters. If all memory and evidence of religion were destroyed at midnight EST tonight, it would rise up again spontaneously tomorrow. People would "see" and re-invent God all over again, and nothing we say could stop them.

So my question is this....

How can one be a compassionate skeptic?
CAN one be a compassionate skeptic?I think this is a question of inner security. I've been in situations like this and was totally secure in my beliefs, and it didn't bother me that those around me were as narrow-minded. Then there were times in my life when I wasn't so secure, and I seldom felt at ease. I would suggest being strong in the things that make you strong and increase your inner security from them.

Good fortune to you, Piggy. And yes you can be compassionate as a skeptic. Its just a lot easier from a position of inner strength. :)

[Piggy]

Piggy:
I'm interested in your circumstance. Do you identify an event(s) that pulled you from the Christian flock?
I'm a lucky turtle.

I subscribe to the baby-turtle theory of life. Some hatchlings make it to the sea because they're strong and fast. But just as many get eaten by crabs and gulls who are stronger and faster. Others make it to the sea simply because there are too many hatchlings for the gulls and crabs to eat.

There was no event. But I was the youngest of 3 boys and the youngest kid in my neighborhood but one, and (boys being boys) it didn't take me long to learn that people will lie to you for their own personal reasons that have nothing to do with reality or your best interests. The whole Santa Claus thing confirmed that. So I learned to mistrust everything I heard until I could prove it was true.

I applied that same strategy to Sunday school, and quickly decided that my teachers didn't know what they were talking about. Talking snakes? Every animal on a boat? It was all a load of hooey. And if all that was bunk, then their god was bunk and wasn't going to toss me into a lake of fire for not believing it.

[ruach1]

Compassion? Every time a Christian screws me over, and doesn't even kiss me first, dammit, I find I have less and less compassion, consideration, or concern for the group as a whole.

I mean, man, it just happened to me, again. A supposedly and self-professed Christian woman used lies, threats, yelling, anger...all those good, compassionate Christian values, to get me kicked out of my position. Damn it.

I try, though. I've met some wonderful people on this forum who are also Christians, and they're just good folks. I've no problem with them, and think their faith does them credit. But every time a Christian behaves in an "unChristian" manner and it does me harm, I develop a little more hatred. Sorry, but I do.
You and I have a lot in common Sling. I'm a Christian, and I've been "screwed over" in the aforementioned manner more times than I can count on my hands and toes. And I do get mad, and I do judge "them" as a group. And guess what? Some Christian or something about the religion comes along and makes up for this poor behavior. Its enough to drive one insane!!! :)

[ruach1]

[QUOTE=Piggy;1524650]I'm with you, brother.

Uh Piggy...

I'm pretty sure Slingblade is a girl (woman). ;)

[Piggy]

I think this is a question of inner security. I've been in situations like this and was totally secure in my beliefs, and it didn't bother me that those around me were as narrow-minded. Then there were times in my life when I wasn't so secure, and I seldom felt at ease. I would suggest being strong in the things that make you strong and increase your inner security from them.
I am absolutely secure in my beliefs. Hell, they're not even "beliefs". Does one "believe" that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa? Does one "believe" that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews, the homosexuals, the "unfit"? Does one "believe" that life evolves? I think not. Rather, one understands these things.

But when I look at this person in front of me, this human being, who really suffers because she thinks she isn't "smart like [me]" and cries, in all sincerity, because of that, and who only knows her way, can only see her way, who has given her whole life to it, is devoted to it and finds meaning in it.... How can I say to her, "It's all a lie", whether by word or deed?

And how could she believe me if I did?

[Piggy]

[QUOTE]

Uh Piggy...

I'm pretty sure Slingblade is a girl (woman). ;)
Sorry. I'm new. :o

[slingblade]

You and I have a lot in common Sling. I'm a Christian, and I've been "screwed over" in the aforementioned manner more times than I can count on my hands and toes. And I do get mad, and I do judge "them" as a group. And guess what? Some Christian or something about the religion comes along and makes up for this poor behavior. Its enough to drive one insane!!! :)

:)

I know. It seems as though I expect Christians to somehow be more than human, and above fault. Look, I used to be a Christian; a Bible-thumping Fundie of the worst sort. And I got hurt so badly in that lifestyle, by people who were supposed to be on my side, as it were, that it's made me bitter and cynical. Some day, maybe I'll grow up and get over it. In the meantime, I just wish that I didn't have to hear about how wonderful it is to luv Jesus while a knife is being twisted in my back.

[slingblade]

Sorry. I'm new. :o

Is okay. It's a masculine "handle," so of course. Welcome, Piggy!
Thanks, Ruach. ;)

[Piggy]

Is okay. It's a masculine "handle," so of course. Welcome, Piggy!

Thanks. Btw, I *love* those Heinlein quotes!

[ruach1]

[QUOTE=Piggy;1524693]

Is okay. It's a masculine "handle," so of course. Welcome, Piggy!
Thanks, Ruach. ;)
No problemo, and good luck on that teaching gig.

Can't you just feel the warmth in here? ;)

I never knew R&P could do it!

[slingblade]

No problemo, and good luck on that teaching gig.

Can't you just feel the warmth in here? ;)

I never knew R&P could do it!

Thanks, but I got tossed from student teaching Tuesday. They are graciously letting me try again in the fall.

Yes, it's getting a little mushy here. Someone bait a Fundie, quick, for crying out loud.

[Dogdoctor]

Sorry, but I don't understand all that. I'm not one for philosophy. But I will say, "these religious people" are my family, my co-workers, my fellow citizens.

It's not philosophy it is sociology

No. Fundamentalists don't compromise.

Sorry then you are SOL. However if you look at the world and just see fundamentalists then you are screwed anyway.
Sounds to me like you don't want to be compassionate and instead are looking for people to agree to hate religious people. Just some more religion bashing so you can count me out.

[Piggy]

It's not philosophy it is sociology
Sorry, but questions like "Who are you? What do you value in life?" sound like philosophy to me. Sociology may not be hard science, but it's not as soft as all that!
If you look at the world and just see fundamentalists then you are screwed anyway. Sounds to me like you don't want to be compassionate and instead are looking for people to agree to hate religious people. Just some more religion bashing so you can count me out.
I don't believe you've actually read my posts. I have made no statements asserting that all believers are fundamentalists. I have made no statements advocating hate. And I would appreciate it very much if you wouldn't make false claims such as that.

How is this "religion bashing"?
When I look at this person in front of me, this human being, who really suffers because she thinks she isn't "smart like [me]" and cries, in all sincerity, because of that, and who only knows her way, can only see her way, who has given her whole life to it, is devoted to it and finds meaning in it.... How can I say to her, "It's all a lie", whether by word or deed?
Is it arrogant? Maybe. All I can say is, that's the situation I had on my hands at 3:15 this afternoon. I don't believe for one minute that this person is "stupid" (her term) or that I'm smarter. But because I can do certain calculations in my head, she thinks so. And that's tragic. She's been convinced somewhere down the line that she needs to "lean on God", and to me, that's a crime. She could contribute so much more, BE so much more, if she hadn't been trained to believe that! Instead, she's convinced that her only role is to be a "suffering servant". No one had the right to do that to her!

Now, if by "religion bashing" you mean simply asserting that religion = superstition, then I don't think you honestly belong on a skeptics' board, any more than I would honestly belong on a Xian board. If I joined a Xian board, I'd be a mere troll.

If you're going to make outrageous and false statements, then I'd be very happy if you would do us all the favor of counting yourself out.

[Dogdoctor]

I don't believe you've actually read my posts. I have made no statements asserting that all believers are fundamentalists. I have made no statements advocating hate. And I would appreciate it very much if you wouldn't make false claims such as that.

You were the one who brought up fundamentalists in response to my question. I guess if you are only relating to fundamentalist then you aren't likely to make any progress along the lines of learning compassion or you can change your answer.
In answer to your original question. Yes people can be skeptical and have compassion for religous people except that certain people will have a hard time. This because they harbor beleifs that will not allow them to be compasionate.

[Piggy]

You were the one who brought up fundamentalists in response to my question. .
My aplogies for the misunderstanding.

My response re fundamentalists and a "workable compromise" comes from my actual experience. The people I deal with day-in and day-out are fundamentalists. And they don't compromise. You're saved or you're not, and if there's any doubt, you're not.

I didn't mean to imply that everyone who believes in God is a fundamentalist. Sorry about that.

[Piggy]

Yes people can be skeptical and have compassion for religous people except that certain people will have a hard time. This because they harbor beleifs that will not allow them to be compasionate.
Well, just saying that people can be skeptical and have compassion doesn't do much good without putting rubber on the road.

How (in real, day-to-day terms) does one have compassion while insisting that these people really don't have a right to take over the government, institute theocracy, and teach myth as science?

If you think I'm exaggerating, then come on down and get an eyeful!

This isn't some abstract question I'm asking here. I'm talking real people, real time.

Blaming the skeptics by claiming that we must "harbor beliefs that will not allow them to be compassionate" is... well, let's just say it's unsupported and not useful.

[pipelineaudio]

Hell, that's like saying white people are persecuted, or men are persecuted, or rich people are persecuted, although you can certainly find fringe pundits willing to sell that bill o' goods, too.


Nice the religion of christianity being replaced by the religion of PC

Im not sure a poor white male from sunnyslope (the white ghetto here), applying for a NAACP college scholarship would agree with you

blanket statements are for those with something to sell (yes I am aware I am selling an anti PC existence)

[Corpse Cruncher]

Unless you work for a Church or a religious society why should your job be in danger? That makes no sense and does it not fall under the loose term of prejudice?

An old adage, you can't chose your family but you can choose your friends, applies. I am of the mind that when families and friends dictate what you can or can not do. That should serve as a warning. No one person has the right to demand you follow their wishes. This is effectively what they are doing. You are a member of the family and as such they should afford you some respect to the way you lead your life. Naturally the reverse also applies without question.

While in my home, my family and friends respect my wishes, when in theirs I respect theirs. As the soul carnivore in the family, this has caused many wars and bl**dy conflicts. I stood burning in hell on my side and they stood baking in the sun on theirs. I offered the compromise and held firm until it was accepted. The truce is not an easy one, the way I live my life is alien to them. They now accept that it is my life to live as I see fit and as such I accept it is theirs to live like weirdos :D

As for compassion, you have that if you so chose,it makes no difference if you are a skeptic or otherwise. Skepticism in not about hatred, and asking if a skeptic can be compassionate is suggesting it is.

I am compassionate, I am, of sorts, a skeptic. Being a skeptic does not rule my life and neither should it. It is a state of mind, a raised awareness, nothing more.

[ruach1]

Sorry, but questions like "Who are you? What do you value in life?" sound like philosophy to me. Sociology may not be hard science, but it's not as soft as all that!

I don't believe you've actually read my posts. I have made no statements asserting that all believers are fundamentalists. I have made no statements advocating hate. And I would appreciate it very much if you wouldn't make false claims such as that.

How is this "religion bashing"?

Is it arrogant? Maybe. All I can say is, that's the situation I had on my hands at 3:15 this afternoon. I don't believe for one minute that this person is "stupid" (her term) or that I'm smarter. But because I can do certain calculations in my head, she thinks so. And that's tragic. She's been convinced somewhere down the line that she needs to "lean on God", and to me, that's a crime. She could contribute so much more, BE so much more, if she hadn't been trained to believe that! Instead, she's convinced that her only role is to be a "suffering servant". No one had the right to do that to her!
Now, if by "religion bashing" you mean simply asserting that religion = superstition, then I don't think you honestly belong on a skeptics' board, any more than I would honestly belong on a Xian board. If I joined a Xian board, I'd be a mere troll.

If you're going to make outrageous and false statements, then I'd be very happy if you would do us all the favor of counting yourself out.
What's really at issue here? Religion or inter-relationship stress? You mentioned being the only skpeptic/atheist in an all-Christian atmosphere. Now you're talking about your girlfriend who seems intimidated by your intelligence and therefore retreats into what she perceives as her strengths--namely religion-- albeit the suffering servant aspect.

So who's doing the suffering here? Is it you for having to swim in displeasing Christianity? Is it your girlfriend whom you are possibly making suffer because you always have to have the upper hand in the relationship and therefore play to her weaknesses? Or is it the both of you who somehow feel threatened by the beliefs of those closest to you and are tired of the constant pressure?

[Dogdoctor]

Piggy I am a skeptic who feels great compassion for even fundamental Christians. I could tell you what I know about how to accomplish that but perhaps you should consult a psychologist or psychiatrist as they should be much more capable of helping you accomplish the goal of learning compassion for religious people. They key to learning compassion as far as I can see is to learn to love yourself . This means you have to examine yourself and look for problems and fix them. Once you have resolved all your problems then you need to learn about religious people. If you can understand yourself and why you do what you do and religious people and why they do what they do then compassion should happen since it is normal. I lack the scientific lingo for talking about psychological issues since I have studied it only minimally.

[Piggy]

Unless you work for a Church or a religious society why should your job be in danger?
I live in a state with "at will" employment laws, which means you can be fired on the spot if your employer gets tired of your face, or if your breath smells like rutabaga. Y'know the radio evangelist who got the thank-you note from Alito? Buddies w/ my boss.

[Piggy]

What's really at issue here? Religion or inter-relationship stress? You mentioned being the only skeptic/atheist in an all-Christian atmosphere. Now you're talking about your girlfriend who seems intimidated by your intelligence and therefore retreats into what she perceives as her strengths--namely religion-- albeit the suffering servant aspect.
No, this isn't my girlfriend, this is a co-worker!

All the back-story would be too much, but maybe I need to shed a little light.

It was this moment, and one other, that put me in the dilemma.

This woman is one of the people at work who want to save my soul because I won't say explicitly that I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal saviour. For them, that's it. Period.

And people like her are actively working for causes I think are dangerous -- Christianity in government, curtailing freedom of conscience, teaching the Bible as science, teaching kids that evolution is a myth, abstinence-only sex ed, censorship and perversion of scientific research, promoting superstition at home and abroad, removing federal checks and balances, funneling money to charlatans, rewriting history to define the US as a Christian nation and the founders as evangelicals, etc.

But in that moment, when I saw her so vulnerable and human, I couldn't see her as the enemy, even if she's working for all that. In that moment, I felt her weakness and her pain, which isn't very different from my weakness and my pain, and I felt profound compassion for her, and understood that she needed her beliefs, and at this age couldn't turn them around. She had sacrificed too much for them. They color every moment of her life.

Seeing her then, the dilemma began.

On the one hand, I still firmly believe that I need to be part of the solution, that I need to actively oppose the fundamentalist evangelical agenda.

On the other hand, that means saying to good people, co-workers, family, fellow citizens, that the thing which gives their life meaning is a lie.

And that's what this post is about. How does one act compassionately toward believers, and still work for the good of the world? Or do we have to choose instead?

[Dogdoctor]

But in that moment, when I saw her so vulnerable and human, I couldn't see her as the enemy, even if she's working for all that.
It is well that you could not see her as the enemy. They are not the enemy. We have to cohabitate the world with them. We have to cooperate with them. They are people with beliefs different from yours. Not the enemy. People are going to believe whatever they believe regardless of any attempts to make them believe otherwise so it is counterproductive getting pissed off about it and rather foolhardy to think you can change that (much). For a productive healthy society people need to be able to have their own beliefs without creating conflicts because of these beliefs. It is in the value systems that we have that we need to find common ground.

[Piggy]

They are not the enemy. We have to cohabitate the world with them. We have to cooperate with them. They are people with beliefs different from yours.... People are going to believe whatever they believe regardless of any attempts to make them believe otherwise so it is counterproductive getting pissed off about it and rather foolhardy to think you can change that (much). For a productive healthy society people need to be able to have their own beliefs without creating conflicts because of these beliefs. It is in the value systems that we have that we need to find common ground.
That sounds all very nice and happy, but forgive me if it goes down like a gob of syrup.

Just because I share the world with them, just because they have different beliefs from mine, that doesn't make them not the enemy. Maybe they are.

I share the world with neo-nazis, gangsters, serial rapists, people who kidnap children and sell them as sex slaves. They have ideas that are different from mine. They are the enemy.

What the evangelical fundies are trying to do is dangerous. And they don't care for compromise. They believe they're on a mission from God, literally. They believe they are authorized by a higher power. They are fed lies, they believe lies, and they spread lies, even if most of them believe the lies.

Yes, a productive healthy society depends on the freedom to hold one's own opinion, and to find common ground.

So what do you do with people who care nothing about playing by those rules?

And what do you do with people who spread dangerous lies as fact, who support politicians who are willing to tinker with science, who support teaching superstition as fact in the schools?

Your platitudes are no help there.

On the other hand, how can we -- who believe in separation of powers, a secular government, and freedom from coersion -- actively oppose this well organized and well funded movement, without hurting people we care about, people who are, more than anyone, the real victims of the fundamentalist movement?

Cooperation doesn't seem to be an option. They're having none of it. If you don't support the coming of the Kingdom of Jesus, if you're not trying to take back America for Christ, then you're deluded by the Devil and you're part of the problem. That's how they see it.

Maybe we do have to live a double life of sorts, those of us who live and work among the fundies. Maybe we have to be compassionate to those in front of us and hold our tongues, but work like hell politically to stop them from doing what they're trying to do to this country and every part of the world they can get a toe-hold on.

[Dogdoctor]

Like I said you would be better off talking to a psychologist or psychiatrist who can speak with authority to you and who you might listen to if you really want to have compassion for religious people.
eta lucky most of the religious people are not fundies

[ruach1]

That sounds all very nice and happy, but forgive me if it goes down like a gob of syrup.

Just because I share the world with them, just because they have different beliefs from mine, that doesn't make them not the enemy. Maybe they are.

I share the world with neo-nazis, gangsters, serial rapists, people who kidnap children and sell them as sex slaves. They have ideas that are different from mine. They are the enemy.

What the evangelical fundies are trying to do is dangerous. And they don't care for compromise. They believe they're on a mission from God, literally. They believe they are authorized by a higher power. They are fed lies, they believe lies, and they spread lies, even if most of them believe the lies.

Yes, a productive healthy society depends on the freedom to hold one's own opinion, and to find common ground.

So what do you do with people who care nothing about playing by those rules?

And what do you do with people who spread dangerous lies as fact, who support politicians who are willing to tinker with science, who support teaching superstition as fact in the schools?

Your platitudes are no help there.

On the other hand, how can we -- who believe in separation of powers, a secular government, and freedom from coersion -- actively oppose this well organized and well funded movement, without hurting people we care about, people who are, more than anyone, the real victims of the fundamentalist movement?

Cooperation doesn't seem to be an option. They're having none of it. If you don't support the coming of the Kingdom of Jesus, if you're not trying to take back America for Christ, then you're deluded by the Devil and you're part of the problem. That's how they see it.

Maybe we do have to live a double life of sorts, those of us who live and work among the fundies. Maybe we have to be compassionate to those in front of us and hold our tongues, but work like hell politically to stop them from doing what they're trying to do to this country and every part of the world they can get a toe-hold on.
Seriously---you just creeped me out.

You need help.

Talk to a professional, and get this out before you hurt yourself or, as you say, someone around you.

[Dogdoctor]

Seriously---you just creeped me out.

You need help.

Talk to a professional, and get this out before you hurt yourself or, as you say, someone around you.
There is no need for this type of personal attack. I wish we could learn to discuss stuff without this kind of stuff. I know I am not perfect either. By the way I was not saying he needed help only that if he wanted to be compassinate to religious people that a professional could do a better job than me.

[ruach1]

There is no need for this type of personal attack. I wish we could learn to discuss stuff without this kind of stuff. I know I am not perfect either. By the way I was not saying he needed help only that if he wanted to be compassinate to religious people that a professional could do a better job than me.
No personal attack was intended. I really was "creeped out", and, yes, I do see a potentially serious problem if not checked. I was trying to use the plainest and most appropriate language to convey this to the person I was addressing. Maybe my mistake; maybe not.

And yes DD, I agree--discussions are much better without personal attacks.

[Piggy]

Seriously---you just creeped me out.

You need help.

Talk to a professional, and get this out before you hurt yourself or, as you say, someone around you.
I'm not going to hurt anyone, ruach1. Much less myself.

Let me be clear that I'm not comparing fundies to rapists, etc. My point to dogdoc was that there really are folks out there who need to be stopped from doing what they're doing, and saying, "well, they're just folks with different points of view" don't always cut it. Those were extreme examples, and they really are an enemy to people who want a peaceful, ordered, safe society. It's no joke.

But I'm not about to go Bronson on anyone. These things have to be done politically, legally.

Maybe you don't see it as much where you live, but where I'm from (and all across the country, even if you don't see it locally) there are organized groups who are well funded and politically active, who are supporting efforts to get evolution out of the schools and Jesus in the schools, who support the Bush administration's well-documented efforts to censor and meddle with science, who want theocracy, who are completely dedicated to "taking back America for Jesus" and much more.

This isn't some paranoid fantasy. It's grass roots real.

I'll say it again: What the evangelicals are trying to do is dangerous.

Take a look at some of the legislation being proposed, including federal legislation to prevent the US Supreme Court from reviewing 1st Amendment cases involving the establishment clause.

And it's not only here, but abroad also. Despite the fact that Xians can be (and are) tortured in N. Korea, for example, or executed in Afghanistan, they want more missionaries to go there. I heard an Iraqi Xian on the radio this morning asking the foreign missionaries to please go home b/c they are endangering Xian lives in Iraq by associating them w/ foreign occupiers. But all the fundies are interested in is spreading the Word.

I personally know fundies who think instigating global conflict is a good thing b/c it will bring on the reign of Jesus, and they'll be raptured out anyway.

These folks really do believe that those who aren't with them, are being deluded by the Devil.

I know it sounds crazy -- heck, it IS crazy -- but it's very real, and politicians are capitalizing on this "base".

[Piggy]

FWIW, ruach1, I didn't take it as a personal attack. You just think I'm being paranoid. I'm not. This is happening. The extreme Xian evangelical fundamentalist agenda needs to be countered. We can't afford to ignore it. To borrow the words of Mike Stipe, "They're real, they mean it."

[Piggy]

you would be better off talking to a psychologist or psychiatrist who can speak with authority to you and who you might listen to if you really want to have compassion for religious people.
Ya just don't get it, doggy.

I do feel compassion. If I didn't, there'd be no quandry, no post.

The OP wasn't about feelings, or really about me personally.

Here it is in a nutshell:

Given that we do feel compassion, personally, for people who believe and spread superstition and irrational ideas... given that we have to live and work with them... how -- in practical terms, not just generalities -- do we do that, and at the same time work effectively toward ensuring that our schools teach hard science, that our government remains secular, etc.?

Yes, I write my representatives. I communicate with like-minded people, encourage them to be politically active.

But at work, do I ignore the email that falsely claims that Madison and Adams were evangelicals?

What about my niece and nephew? It breaks my heart that my brother allows them to be raised believing that demons are real. But til they're of age, I hold my tongue.

That's what I'm talking about, Willis.

[Dogdoctor]

Ya just don't get it, doggy.

I do feel compassion. If I didn't, there'd be no quandry, no post.

The OP wasn't about feelings, or really about me personally.

Here it is in a nutshell:

Given that we do feel compassion, personally, for people who believe and spread superstition and irrational ideas... given that we have to live and work with them... how -- in practical terms, not just generalities -- do we do that, and at the same time work effectively toward ensuring that our schools teach hard science, that our government remains secular, etc.?

Yes, I write my representatives. I communicate with like-minded people, encourage them to be politically active.

But at work, do I ignore the email that falsely claims that Madison and Adams were evangelicals?

What about my niece and nephew? It breaks my heart that my brother allows them to be raised believing that demons are real. But til they're of age, I hold my tongue.

That's what I'm talking about, Willis.
Who should be the one to decide what is best for your niece and nephew? YOU?? No way jose. You are deceiving your relatives. If you don't hold truth as a high priority then what do you believe? Truth isn't important? Only the truth you want to expose? You think you have a right to indoctrinate your niece and nephew with your philosophy? Have your own kids and indoctrinate them. Don't complain about others lying and you are deceiving your own relatives. This post was dishonest in that you did not explain that you did not want to learn to be compassionate to religious people till now. You need to look at your values and see if you aren't fooling yourself. You may find people won't believe you if you deceive enough. I know I am going to question anything you say now.

[Piggy]

Who should be the one to decide what is best for your niece and nephew? YOU?? No way jose.... You think you have a right to indoctrinate your niece and nephew with your philosophy?
This is getting very tiresome. I'm just about fed up with it.

READ MY POSTS!

You even quoted me: "til they're of age, I hold my tongue".

While they're minors, it is up to their parents to determine what they're taught.

I respect that, and I've said so EXPLICITLY. Why you choose to claim that I've said the opposite is beyond me.

Feeling compassion for theists isn't the same as agreeing with their superstitions, btw. My position isn't "philosophy". Philosophy is what they're having injected into their impressionable brains by their Xian mother with the tacit permission of their father and grandmother who know better.

In case you haven't noticed, this is a skeptics' board. Theism and religion are faith-based... they are not skeptical.

Religion = superstition. Demons aren't real. The Biblical God isn't real. They're being taught a load of bunk.

I'm new to this board, but I understand who you are now. The non-sequiteurs give you away. No wonder you're thread-poison.

<washes hands>

[burrahobbit]

I understand some of what Piggy is feeling.

I had a similair experience when working in the "cow belt" in India at the height of the "hindu supremacist" movement. Suddenly had a feeling that I was in Germany as the Nazis were gaining strength. A feeling that intolerant (and unwashed) bigots were about to take over the nation. Scary.

The fact of the matter is that unfortunately, fundamentalism is a much more powerful rallying cry than sanity and reason. Reason and logic need intelligence to be appreciated. Jesus (or Ram or allah) doesnt.

And intelligence is in short supply

[Dogdoctor]

Regardless of what you do religion will exist. If religious people want to push through bad legislation, you should oppose it, however it really shouldn't matter if they are religious or not bad laws are bad laws. If you want to complain about religious people lying OK but by your own statement you have deceived your own family.
In my case, my job would be in danger, and many in my family would disown me if they knew the full extent of my "unbelief", that I am unsavable and unrepentant -- I'd have no access to my niece and nephew, no chance to give them my perspective on things.
If you want to be credible then you need to avoid accusing them of lies. You seem to think that it doesn't matter if you associate with your nephew and niece even if you seem pretty sure that your brother or sister would object to it if they knew who you really were. True? Not true? Why would you associate with your niece and nephew if you know you brother/sister would object?
Religion is not going anywhere in a hurry. Religious beliefs may cause problems but religious people are just as limited as you. If you remove religion what will take it's place? It is those destructive beliefs such as teaching religious bs in public schools and anti homosexual attitudes which suppress a good part of our population that are important. Most of the trappings of religion are harmless or even good for people. So you need to focus on the beliefs and not the people or the religion. They are just casualties of their past experiences as much as child abusers are casualties of their past. By the way I am probably in a minority here so don't worry about fitting in here.

[Piggy]

Thanks, burrahobbit. That sums it up nicely.

What makes matters worse is an active, organized, concerted effort to provide mis-information to people and spread lies about legitimate sources.

That's a big part of the dilemma -- how to get along with individuals while simultaneously dedicating your life to fighting the things that give their lives meaning.

Believers around here are victims of a culturally embedded and essentially ubiquitous program to indoctrinate them from the cradle up.

They are fed a steady stream of misinformation about history and science, and brought up to believe that it comes from God, and that there is a conspiracy in the courts, the universities, and the secular world in general to promote the word of the Devil. On top of it, they're told that they're commanded by God to convert anyone who doesn't believe, and everyone they don't convert will be tortured for eternity.

That's powerful medicine.

Still, I feel an obligation -- to myself, to my country, to my species -- to do what I can to prevent theocracy from taking hold, and to break this vicious cycle that dooms so many kids to a life of falsehood and duplicity, and in today's America goes hand-in-hand with an anti-science movement that threatens our health and well-being.

[scotth]

Location: The Golden Buckle on the Bible Belt

Piggy, do you live in North Texas? I've read enough of your posts to know that if you do live in North Texas, we should probably hang out. We'd probably get along well.

[Dogdoctor]

I think it is a mistake to be aggressively anti-religion. It will create more problems than it resolves. It will also serve to prove their misconceptions about atheists. But again I am a minority here. A more important goal would be to try to make sure that all children are properly cared for and raised in loving caring household. Out of that upbringing we will have the most sane, logical healthy people regardless of their religious/atheist beliefs.

[scotth]

Dogdoctor, I am with in your sentiment but I would like to point out that I have witnessed in my own family very damaging treatment of kids that because of their religious beliefs they truly believed they were doing the correct thing. I have no doubt, they were opperating with the best intentions.

[scimystic]

I'm an atheist skeptic in the Bible Belt. Often tempted to leave family and friends and light out for the territory where people have a little more sense and tolerance.

It's hard to feel free here. You feel like if everyone knew what you thought, you'd be an outcast. In my case, my job would be in danger, and many in my family would disown me if they knew the full extent of my "unbelief", that I am unsavable and unrepentant -- I'd have no access to my niece and nephew, no chance to give them my perspective on things.

Meanwhile, the Xians go on about how they're "persecuted". Hell, that's like saying white people are persecuted, or men are persecuted, or rich people are persecuted, although you can certainly find fringe pundits willing to sell that bill o' goods, too.

Still, we can't just shut up and sit down. We can't sit idly by and let the "God squad" erode our liberties, teach nonsense to our kids, and stuff the pockets of charlatans.

But in the last week I've had two encounters that put me in a quandry.

The details don't matter. But here's the gist....

Most folks who believe in all that religious claptrap are sincere. They can't see past it. And they're never going to.

They're never going to.

Obviously, the tendency toward religious thinking is built into our brains. We are pattern-seeking, meaning-creative, anthropo-centric critters. If all memory and evidence of religion were destroyed at midnight EST tonight, it would rise up again spontaneously tomorrow. People would "see" and re-invent God all over again, and nothing we say could stop them.

So my question is this....

How can one be a compassionate skeptic?

CAN one be a compassionate skeptic?



Hello Piggy.

Sorry to be joining the debate so late. Some interesting things have been said on both sides. I will say that I think it possible to be a compassionate skeptic in the sense that you seem to be interested in (of being able to clearly disagree with theists without hurting them) but that (A) I have never been able to figure out how to do this, and (B) it does not seem to me to have ever been very effective. I have pasted in here a little illustrative story that I wrote a few years ago, which seems to address your question. I then got a little carried away and added some more to the end of it.

-----------------

'The Cuddly Kitten'

You are standing by the side of the road with a stranger, who we’ll call Mr. X. A car comes down the road, and Mr. X steps out in front of it and gets run over. So now he is lying there very badly injured, and you ask him “why the hell did you step out in front of that car?” He answers: “Well, I’d had a terrible day. All sorts of bad things had happened to me, and it occurred to me that it would make me feel a lot better if I just had a soft little kitten to cuddle. So when that thing, which I must now admit to have looked like a car and sounded like a car, came down the road I so needed it to be a cuddly kitten that I just assumed that it was, and stepped out in front of it to get it to stop so that I could pick it up”.

What do you say to Mr. X? Think well before you answer, as his position - belief against reason on the basis of desire - is qualitatively identical to all positions of irrational religious and ideological faith. It is more overt and extreme, but in fundamental principle it is the same. Do you say to him “There there…. I understand entirely; and how could a person who was in your terrible position have done otherwise”? If so then you would have substantial company, as this what ‘we’ - in the rational philosophy/science/engineering community - have been saying for hundreds of years to those who still live mainly by ‘faith based knowledge’. We have been watching them kill each other and die, torture and be tortured, succumb to easily preventable famines and easily curable disease epidemics, and be ruled/exploited by an apparently endless succession of blatantly self serving human monsters; throughout Africa and the Middle East, and to a slightly lesser degree in all of Asia and Latin America. Our “there there” understanding and sympathy, and careful avoidance of any hint that we might think them better off without their irrational beliefs (to be, of course, desirably ‘politically correct’, ‘post-modern’, and solicitous of their sensibilities) does not seem to have been of much service to them. To bring the problem back to the relatively simple case of Mr. X: Might it not be kinder, in the ‘long view’ of trying to prevent a repetition once he gets out of the hospital, to say to him “Well, I’m sorry to be giving you this bad news, but I’ve got to tell you that belief against reason just can’t fly. Reason is nothing but the output of our newer and higher ‘executive level’ brain structures. It thus provides our most reliable understanding of reality. It is predicated directly upon our observations of the behavior of our knowledge in relation to reality. [Basically, how well can it be seen to work? What kind of knowledge can be seen to work best?] It is thus not a separate ‘procedure’ or ‘faculty’, to be heeded or overridden at the whim our older brain structures and thus older mind components. In this sense – that it is observable that we simply have nothing better – attempts to override it are a little like attempts to cut with a wooden saw that which you are having trouble cutting with a steel saw. They must necessarily end badly.

If we can see that we owe this consideration to Mr. X then can we avoid its extension to all who are now damaging themselves and others, and our planet, through their maintenance of ‘faith based knowledge’? Can we point to any qualitative difference between the cuddly kitten belief of Mr. X and, for example, belief that the universe is being maintained by an ‘omnipotent loving father God’ who uniquely favors each one of the opposed national or ethnic or tribal groups who now hold it? Are not both beliefs just as obviously false and insane? In our story Mr. X runs up against reality in the form of the car. But just switch on your TV news station and you will see Palestinians and Jews, and Serbs and Albanians, and Hutus and Tutsis; and even - it has to be said - US soldiers and Islamic Jihadis in Iraq, running up against reality in the form of each other. Are not the underlying causes, and the results, identical? Are these people really being killed by our old catch-all excuse “the human condition”; or are they being killed by obvious and preventable stupidity? At root; by nothing grander or more mysterious than criminally lousy educational systems?

If we continue to download into our children’s minds all sorts of irrational garbage (for example, about invisible supernatural beings, who are at the same time both one being and three beings) as a special form of knowledge that is superior to what can be criticized through reason (in being instead representative of the actual state of reality) then we can expect our species developmental history to continue as the kind of road demolition disaster movie that it has obviously been for about the past 7,000 years. ‘Garbage in, garbage out’ applies to biological computers as inexorably as it applies to electronic computers. And Voltaire’s dictum, that: “Those who continue to believe absurdities will continue to commit atrocities” is graphically illustrated every time we turn on CNN. We have been promoting wars, pogroms, famines, disease epidemics, and localized environmental disasters for as far back as we can see. I think that we are now headed for ‘the big one’, with our foot trying to mash the accelerator pedal through the floor.

To get back on topic (compassion for Christians and Christianity). No! Move away. Fight against Christianity (and Islam and Judiasm and the rest) to the limit of your ability. I don’t know how much time we’ve still got - within which to effectively turn or hit the brakes – but the indications that it isn’t long are coming in thicker and faster every day. Our 70 year old ‘gentlemen’s agreement’ with institutionalized irrationality (called ‘postmodernism’, and ‘separate magisteria’) has been breaking down for at least the past 15 years (ref. ‘The Fundamentals of Extremism’ and ‘The Republican War On Science’), and whatever was left of it fell – along with the towers – on September 11th. The intellectual battle lines are now clarifying fast. Those who staff the Discovery Institute, and many similar corporate funded ‘independent think tanks’ throughout the world understand clearly what they are trying to achieve, and why. Our intellectual leaders (Dawkins, Dennett, Wilson, Rees, ….) are taking their battle positions. And the old ghosts - of Voltaire, and Tom Paine, and Robert Ingersoll - are stirring. If there was ever really a good time for solicitous compassion towards institutionalized irrationality, I think that it is now past.

Enough for now. I will write more if you, or others, wish to respond to this.

BR,

Scimystic :)

[Piggy]

Piggy, do you live in North Texas?
No. Although my location is listed as "The Golden Buckle on the Bible Belt" which as we all know is IRL DelRio, Texas, I'm in the Deep South. (I don't consider Texas part of the South. Texas isn't part of anything. Texas is Texas.)

Down the road from me is a subdivision (called a "Plantation") named after a leader of the Confederacy, with Confederate soldier on the sign. Down the road in the other direction is a school named after that same leader (no classes yet due to districting squabbles, so a church meets there currently) and just beyond that a subdiv named after one of the founders of the KKK. These are middle and upper-middle class homes.

Within a 5 mile radius of my house there are approximately 3 dozen churches. It is illegal to serve or sell alcohol on the Xian sabbath. My state legislature just passed a resolution claming that the "the Ten Commandments" (whatever those might be) are the foundation of the legal system of every Western civilization in history, affirming bogus quotations falsely attributed to presidents Madison and Adams, and supporting the display of said commandments in public buildings, even using tax money to distribute copies.

Last year the State Superintendant of Schools attempted to ban evolution from the public school curriculum. One county in the metro area of the state capital is fighting to put anti-evolution stickers back on its textbooks.

Ralph Reed is running for Lt. Governor, and the state Xian Coalition denies any knowledge of his taking casino money to help squash their competition, although this is now a matter of public record.

When stores decide to welcome customers with "happy holidays", they're threatened with boycott for waging a "war on Christmas". A mayor was defeated in a neighboring town in the last election in large part because he failed to call the town tree a "Christmas tree" -- even though he issued a public statement on the front page of the paper explaining that he in no way meant to be "PC" or inclusive of non-Christians, people literally stopped their cars in the street to tell him he'd lost their vote because of that tree.

Around here, freedom and science are endangered species.

[supercorgi]

Piggy, I can sympathize with your situation. When you see dangerous nonsense spread around, and when people want to make it impact your life, it is particularly frustrating and frightening. At the same time, you can understand how these people came to their beliefs but you can also see how terribly it is impacting thier individuality, thier self-esteem, or freedom. Things which you value, but they apparently do not.

I'm lucky in that I live in the US in New England. Low incidence of fundamentalist anything here. The main problem up here, probably due in part to our extreme tolerance, is a preponderance of new-agey beliefs. I don't have an answer for you on how to combat it. I think we need to keep the interchange non-emotional and just present factual, scientific information to counter whatever nonsense these people are presenting.

I've encountered this recently in a social group I belong to. A member of that group is anti-vax and was spreading his, what I think is harmful, information through my group. I tried countering by presenting some factual, medically based information. I can't tell members of my group what to believe but I as sure as hell can expose them to alternate information. Whether they'll evaluate the quality of the information and decide for themselves, I can't say. I sure hope they will. It's a small thing, and yet I was very hesitant to do it because it might cause conflict in a group of people I care about. But I couldn't in good conscience just stand by and let what I consider dangerous, pseudo-scientific information and scare mongering spread.

It may be a small contribution, but sometimes it's the best we can do. I don't want to be righteous and adamant with this group because I think that may turn more people away then I'd want. I want them to think for themselves. But I guess I'm also a coward because I don't want to loose the comraderie of this group of people.

[Piggy]

supercorgi, it sounds like the new-agers are a bit easier to deal with. Maybe you have a better chance up there. I mean, they don't think you're an agent of the Devil or anything, right?

One good thing that's coming from hearing others chime in here is that I'm seeing that the fundie problem may be semi-localized. Around here, it seems like they're thick as the grass everywhere you go, and you get to feeling like the whole durn country's gone over the edge.

Are the new-agers anti-science, or more just victims of wishful thinking?

[ceo_esq]

When stores decide to welcome customers with "happy holidays", they're threatened with boycott for waging a "war on Christmas". A mayor was defeated in a neighboring town in the last election in large part because he failed to call the town tree a "Christmas tree" -- even though he issued a public statement on the front page of the paper explaining that he in no way meant to be "PC" or inclusive of non-Christians, people literally stopped their cars in the street to tell him he'd lost their vote because of that tree.

Around here, freedom and science are endangered species.

These last two anecdotes, at least, are examples of freedom in action. I wouldn't revise the endangered species list just yet.

[Piggy]

These last two anecdotes, at least, are examples of freedom in action.
Only in the sense that any boycott and any vote is "freedom in action", including boycotts of integrated restaurants and votes for segregationist candidates.

The thinking behind them is warped. These actions stem from a perception that only Xian viewpoints should be in the public arena.

Not only should one be allowed to call it a Xmas tree, one MUST call it a Xmas tree. One should not recognize that some folks shopping at the local Wal-Mart may be celebrating Hannukah, Kwanzaa, or the solstice as well as, or instead of, Xmas.

So while these actions in themselves are dependent upon existing freedoms of thought, speech, and action, they are not evidence of a support for equal freedoms of thought, speech, and action for others.

[Ossai]

Piggy
Let me be clear that I'm not comparing fundies to rapists, etc. Why not it’s appropriate. Especially considering what fundies do to their kids. And before you jump to a conclusion I’m not talking about physical abuse.

Maybe you don't see it as much where you live, but where I'm from (and all across the country, even if you don't see it locally) there are organized groups who are well funded and politically active, who are supporting efforts to get evolution out of the schools and Jesus in the schools, who support the Bush administration's well-documented efforts to censor and meddle with science, who want theocracy, who are completely dedicated to "taking back America for Jesus" and much more.
Since you’re new here, you may not realize that ruach1 is one of those people. He just seems to have calmed down a bit recently.


Ossai

[ceo_esq]

Only in the sense that any boycott and any vote is "freedom in action", including boycotts of integrated restaurants and votes for segregationist candidates.

...

So while these actions in themselves are dependent upon existing freedoms of thought, speech, and action, they are not evidence of a support for equal freedoms of thought, speech, and action for others.


I'm curious to know in what way you think freedom of thought, and so forth are implicated by this boycott and this vote. After all, if anti-Walmart boycotters and anti-incumbent voters succeed in these instances, no protected freedoms of thought, speech and action are affected. If they fail, likewise.

[Piggy]

I'm curious to know in what way you think freedom of thought, and so forth are implicated by this boycott and this vote. After all, if anti-Walmart boycotters and anti-incumbent voters succeed in these instances, no protected freedoms of thought, speech and action are affected. If they fail, likewise.
I'm afraid I can't be sure I understand what you're saying.

But if you're saying something like "How does this threaten freedom, b/c it doesn't change any laws even if it succeeds?", then here's what I think:

First, a caution not to make too much of my examples. That single post wasn't intended to be a complete argument: A and B and D therefore Z. In other words, "around here, freedom and science are an endangered species" is just another statement in the row -- it's not intended to follow as a logical conclusion exclusively from what precedes it.

That said....

People who support freedom and equality for all do not go around supporting segregation (the example from the other post -- not something that's done here publicly anymore by anyone but a very small radical fringe), and by the same token they do not go around threatening boycotts of businesses who are inclusive of other religions and who fail to tailor their greetings to recognize their religion alone. Nor do they withdraw political support for a candidate because he fails to explicitly call a holiday decoration a Christmas decoration.

The whole "war on Xmas" lunacy is just part of the picture. But it's that mentality -- the feeling that Xianity is THE religion of the US, that it should be privileged -- is the same mentality that is behind efforts to remove evolution from the schools, introduce creationism in the schools, hold Xian prayer in schools and single out non-Xian kids by asking them to excuse themselves, post Xian symbols in courts, pass state legislative resolutions declaring "the Ten Commandments" to be the foundation of American law, attempt to restrict judicial review of establishment cases, allow public tax dollars to support religious schools, etc.

Religious freedom, separation of church and state, the separation of powers and its accompanying checks and balances, and the integrity of science are under attack, in my state and at the federal level.

The threats to boycott Wal-Mart and the campaign to oust the mayor are not direct and sufficient evidence of this -- nor did I intend them to be. They are merely symptoms of the same wrong-headed, narrow-minded fundie mentality that also give rise to these ills.