MCAS tests run by cretinous idiots

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Today the Massachusetts standardized testing (MCAS) started at our school. In the past, our son, who is dyslexic, could have a reader. As he walked into the test, his teacher announced that he could not have a reader this year.

It was always a giant waste of space, but now it is laughingly, stupefyingly ridiculous. Please Mr. Bush, could you leave my kids behind?

~~ Paul

[Cthulhu]

I am so glad I made it out of HS before they instituted the MCAS. Not that I have any learning disabilities, but I have not heard one good thing about them.

[Rob Lister]

Well, let me tell you something potentially good.

No system is perfect but standardized testing does allow you to benchmark your school against others. The test (is supposed) to be for the school, not the students: and for that, it works. It has its difficulties, such as teachers 'teaching the test' but the tests are constructed in such a way that by 'teaching the test' one arrives at the the same objectives...assuming you don't mind 'outcome based' education too terribly much.

That Paul's child was not allowed a Reader, I cannot comment: I don't understand the total implications of that for his son. Perhaps he could expound!

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Oh yes, it definitely benchmarks our school faculty all right. It screws them royally through no fault of their own. In fact, it robs them of one of the important tools they are using to help my son. Mwahahaha, let's see how you do if you can't do the very things we're hoping that you do for the kids that need help. Morons.

My son is a very slow reader. When he has to focus to read, it's harder for him to comprehend what he's reading. In the past, this was ameliorated by having someone read the test to him. What's the point now? Just give him a "needs work" and be done with it. Why make him go through it?

Oh wait, I get it. When the state sees his score, they are going to assign him a world-renowned reading specialist to work with him one-on-one this summer. Silly me.

No property value left behind.

~~ Paul

[Rob Lister]

Oh yes, it definitely benchmarks our school faculty all right. It screws them royally through no fault of their own. In fact, it robs them of one of the important tools they are using to help my son. Mwahahaha, let's see how you do if you can't do the very things we're hoping that you do for the kids that need help. Morons.

My son is a very slow reader. When he has to focus to read, it's harder for him to comprehend what he's reading. In the past, this was ameliorated by having someone read the test to him. What's the point now? Just give him a "needs work" and be done with it. Why make him go through it?

Oh wait, I get it. When the state sees his score, they are going to assign him a world-renowned reading specialist to work with him one-on-one this summer. Silly me.

No property value left behind.

~~ Paul


No paul, what are the REAL implications of him not doing well due to his difficulty? Not the implications for the school, the impications for HIM.

What does the school/state/city system do with those that cannot, for whatever reason, score well on the test. Here, the answer is...nothing. It hurts the school but does not in any way hurt the student. It is part of his school record but not part of his acedemic record.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Ah yes, so let's make kids go through four days of testing when it has absolutely no value for them. The only thing it does is make the kids crazy, particularly when they spring this change on my son as he walks into the test. You wouldn't mind a bunch of such tests at your workplace, right?

Eventually he has to pass a standardized test to graduate from high school.

~~ Paul

[Rob Lister]

As to the part about making him 'crazy', I cannot address other than to say I doubt he'll go crazy

as to it impacting his graduation: are you sure?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Yes, there is a standardized test in 11th grade. Now, it's possible that they will let him use on that test the learning tools that he has developed. I don't see how this is different from:
a physically handicapped kid has to pass the same physical education test as everyone else, without any help or special equipment
a blind kid has to take the same test, without a reader or braille
a kid with uncontrollable ADHD has to sit for the same length of time as everyone else


What do those of us with handicapped kids hope for? We hope they develop the maturity to be self-aware about their problems and then develop tools to overcome them. If the problems don't simply disappear by themselves, then it's all about tools to handle them. I see no point in testing people without allowing the tools.

~~ Paul

[Rob Lister]

Yes, there is a standardized test in 11th grade. Now, it's possible that they will let him use on that test the learning tools that he has developed. I don't see how this is different from:
a physically handicapped kid has to pass the same physical education test as everyone else, without any help or special equipment
a blind kid has to take the same test, without a reader or braille
a kid with uncontrollable ADHD has to sit for the same length of time as everyone else


What do those of us with handicapped kids hope for? We hope they develop the maturity to be self-aware about their problems and then develop tools to overcome them. If the problems don't simply disappear by themselves, then it's all about tools to handle them. I see no point in testing people without allowing the tools.

~~ Paul


I think it depends on who or what is being tested. Certainly your son is being tested during this cycle, but only in a tangentical manner. Really, it's the school being tested. Likely that rule was developed, statewide, because certain schools were 'abusing' the rule in one form or another...I'll let your imagination fill in those potential gaps.

As long as the playing field for all schools is the same, the only thing potentially harmed, so far as I can see, is your child's self-esteem...not an insignificant harm, no doubt, but the benifits outweigh the risks, IMO. Of course, I'm looking at it from a statistical POV whereas you have a personal stake. You're stake...his stake...are great -- don't let me be misinterpretted -- but what would you have the school do?

That! is the question.

To get that answer we have agree, for the sake of argument, that standardized testing is, in and of itself, a good idea overall. If we don't do that first, then nothing good can come of thread except a political debate...which has thus far yeilded zero results on a billion threads here and elsewhere.

So...what should the school do?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

The school has no choice in the matter.

The state testing board should do what they've done in the past: Adjust the testing procedure so that it takes into account the adjustments made to the student's learning environment based on his IEP (individual education plan). The schools are mandated to create IEPs for students who need them. Why then ignore the IEP when testing the students?

As it stands, the test is testing schools on how many students they have with typical or normal learning abilities. Money is then allocated on this basis. If that is what you want for standardized testing, then I think it is a sham.

More than self-esteem is at stake when students have to take the high school graduation tests in 11th grade.

~~ Paul

[Lisa Simpson]

I agree Paul. My son, who is quite learning disabled (reads at grade 3 and his math skills are at kindergarten level*) must take the CAT6 tests every year. Not only take them, but take the seventh grade tests. It used to be that he could take tests younger than his actual grade level, but thanks to the "No Child Left Behind Act" that's all gone. So tell me, what is the point of this testing? It does not matter when it comes to his IEP. It doesn't change the goals set for each year. It doesn't change his teacher's job status. Near as I can tell, all it does is take away from actual class time where he might be learning.

Don't even get me started on the High School Exit Exam. It may be fine for kids without learning disabilities, but what is the point for disabled kids. My son will not be able to pass. So he will have gone to school for the requisite number of years and not graduate. Is this supposed to help him somehow?

*my son's math ability:

:mad: :mad: :mad:

My son could not look at the above smilies and know that there are three just by looking at them. He would have to count them individually. He lacks understanding of the "one-to-one" correspondence.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Well, sounds like California is as screwed up as Massachusetts. I'm sorry for your situation, Lisa.

I am going to take the advice that my wife and I have given each other every year at MCAS time: It doesn't matter this year, so who gives a ****?

~~ Paul

[Soapy Sam]

How many folk here have kids with some sort of learning disability? Is this a self selected group effect? (Smart folk with LD kids tend to take an interest in education- so end up at JREF)
Is there a JREF LD parents' support group of any sort? If not, should there be?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Interesting question. A poll wouldn't work, because that would certainly be skewed.

I've gotten lots of good advice from people here when I bring up my son's dyslexia.

~~ Paul

[Complexity]

Why not refuse to allow your son to be tested unless the test is conducted in a way that your son might benefit from it?

[Lisa Simpson]

I don't know about MA, but in CA I don't have the option of refusing to allow him to take the test (I used to, but not anymore). Even if I kept him home the week of testing, they would just give him the tests when he came back to school.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

In Massachusetts, you can opt out of the MCAS tests and present a portfolio instead. This is what we do for my daughter. However, my son does okay if he can use his accommodations, so we let him do that. Note that there is no concept of students benefitting from MCAS. It's just a way for the state to decide who gets the money.

It makes no sense for the state to mandate IEP plans for students, but then to rule out the resulting accommodations on the state tests. Heck, I could see ruling them out on the reading test just to see which schools need state-sponsored reading specialists, and then providing funds for those specialists. But that would involve giving the "troubled" schools money, not taking it away!

~~ Paul

[Melendwyr]

The school system is stupid.

No kidding.

Mr. Anagnostopoulos, you really need to watch a few episodes of Invader Zim. It will give you a better appreciation for the current state of our school system.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

The school system was as annoyed about the change as I was. At least our school system is not stupid, although possibly a little dumb about other issues at times. :D

I shall check out Invader Zim. Will it make me stoopid?

~~ Paul

[Complexity]

I don't know about MA, but in CA I don't have the option of refusing to allow him to take the test (I used to, but not anymore). Even if I kept him home the week of testing, they would just give him the tests when he came back to school.
I would then carefully explain to my kid why and how he should "take the test" by always answering the first answer to each question.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Complexity is, of course, incorrect. The correct strategy is to always choose the third answer.

~~ Paul

[Overman]

A baloo is a bear

[Overman]

Wuzzle is to mix.

[Complexity]

Complexity is, of course, incorrect. The correct strategy is to always choose the third answer.

~~ Paul
My bad.

Third planet from the Sun, third answer.

It is so hard to overcome one's upbringing.

P.S. Hey, what's with the 'of course'?

[Jon.]

My bad.

Third planet from the Sun, third answer.

It is so hard to overcome one's upbringing.

P.S. Hey, what's with the 'of course'?

:confused:

Are you from Mercury?

[CFLarsen]

Today the Massachusetts standardized testing (MCAS) started at our school. In the past, our son, who is dyslexic, could have a reader. As he walked into the test, his teacher announced that he could not have a reader this year.

In this context, what's a "reader"?

[Hagrok]

In this context, what's a "reader"?
A person who would read aloud the test to Paul's son. I suspect Paul's son and the reader would have to be in their own room.

{editied for clarity}

[Rob Lister]

The school has no choice in the matter.

The state testing board should do what they've done in the past: Adjust the testing procedure so that it takes into account the adjustments made to the student's learning environment based on his IEP (individual education plan). The schools are mandated to create IEPs for students who need them. Why then ignore the IEP when testing the students?

As it stands, the test is testing schools on how many students they have with typical or normal learning abilities. Money is then allocated on this basis. If that is what you want for standardized testing, then I think it is a sham.

More than self-esteem is at stake when students have to take the high school graduation tests in 11th grade.

~~ Paul

If individual schools are allowed to test in accordance with Individual Educational Plans, then you have opened a wide avenue for any school to abuse the system to any extent it felt necessary to adjust the testing standard such the school will pass, regardless of the schools actual ability to educate. Which is to say, you're testing the schools ability to devise taylored IEP's, not actually teach students.

Stastistically, the number of special needs students should be fairly consistent accross any demographic, and therefore cancel itself out of the equation to a great extent.

Again, you're looking at this from a personal perspective whereas I'm looking at it from an outcome perspective.

If the score a student makes on this test does not impact their academic record, then the only harm done is his frustration in not being able to do as well as he could otherwise do with special attention.

So, the only remaining question is: how are the High School Graduation Tests requirements related to the Standarized Testing requirements? If they are the same, then you have a valid point (albeit still weak)

[69dodge]

Today the Massachusetts standardized testing (MCAS) started at our school. In the past, our son, who is dyslexic, could have a reader. As he walked into the test, his teacher announced that he could not have a reader this year.Has the teacher seen http://www.doe.mass.edu/mcas/overview_faq.html?section=9 ?

It appears from the linked Requirements document that having a reader is okay on the sections of the test that aren't designed specifically to test reading, e.g., math, etc., and possibly even on the reading section, although in the latter case, "The Department will closely monitor the use of this accommodation in the coming year."

Also, http://www.doe.mass.edu/mcas/overview_faq.html?section=5 says, "Students are required to pass the MCAS grade 10 tests in English Language Arts and Mathematics as one requirement for a high school diploma."

[Rob Lister]

And given the goal, that seems about right.

[Kevin_Lowe]

I'm disappointed in the advice being offered here.

Always selecting A or C in a four-answer multiple-choice exam practically guarantees a score of 25%, because the people setting the test endeavour to spread the right answers out a bit. We can do better.

By alternating between ACDC and ABBA, we pay homage to the legends of pop and also cover every letter, ensuring at least some chance of getting 100%.

Is it only Australian school children who have figured this out? No wonder we do so well in multiple choice exams comapared to USians. :p

[Complexity]

:confused:

Are you from Mercury?
Oops. Don't tell anyone.

Why else would I be living in Minnesota now?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

P.S. Hey, what's with the 'of course'?
That was meant to refer to this particular issue only. I was not making a broad-reaching statement about the general correctness of Mercuricromes.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

If individual schools are allowed to test in accordance with Individual Educational Plans, then you have opened a wide avenue for any school to abuse the system to any extent it felt necessary to adjust the testing standard such the school will pass, regardless of the schools actual ability to educate. Which is to say, you're testing the schools ability to devise taylored IEP's, not actually teach students.
Uh, Rob, the goal of taylored IEPs is to enhance the teaching of students with learning disabilities. So, yes, absolutely, the state tests are testing that process in addition to everything else. The tests are supposed to test the complete education process, right, since we agree they aren't testing the students?

I should mention that you can't just toss IEP plans at kids willy-nilly. First of all, parents must approve. Second, you have to hire staff in proportion to the number of kids with IEPs.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

It appears from the linked Requirements document that having a reader is okay on the sections of the test that aren't designed specifically to test reading, e.g., math, etc., and possibly even on the reading section, although in the latter case, "The Department will closely monitor the use of this accommodation in the coming year."
Yes, that appears to be what the school has decided to do, which is better than we thought.

It still makes no sense to count the unaccommodated test results of kids with reading problems against a school's score, unless possibly you could determine that school is in fact not doing anything to help kids with reading problems. I realize there is potential for abuse here, but it is insignificant compared to the overall potential for abuse.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Given the actual state of affairs that 69dodge pointed out, I must admit that I overreacted. The MCAS people are somewhat less cretinous than I feared.

~~ Paul

[ItsRDC]

I was in the first class that was required to pass the MCAS in order to graduate. All in all the test was a giant waste of everyone's time. It's given in 10th grade but contains 8th grade material. For example, there was no algebra on the test. You also have 5 chances to pass it before graduation. Every person in my grade managed to do so, even those who I know are essentially illiterate. This includes all of the special education kids, although they weren't in the same room with me so I'm unsure as to what kind of assitance they were given. Bottom line is, the test is obscenely long, doesn't measure any knowledge past the junior-high level, is passed by essentially everyone and is a giant waste of everyone's time.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Excellent! Glad to hear it's not a bottleneck to graduation. :D

We shall have standardized tests for standardized people.

~~ Paul

[lostnick3]

My wife and I adopted 2 drug babies. The youngest one is now 17 with a fluctuating number of diagnosis plus a hand full of psych. meds and has gone through every program the State of California has to offer. And was required to fail in each and every program in order to receive the next level of care. The county of adoption is not the county of residence. The State of California has decided that mentally ill children cannot be "locked" in any institution or live-in program. He is now in a live-in program in Utah. This is the only program he's ever bought into. We are going to obtain a conservator ship so he can complete the program.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I hope the Utah program helps him, Lostnick.

~~ Paul

[lostnick3]

thanks Paul. the big problem for these kids is they wind up in the juvenile justice system and become completely destroyed as humans by the state. then on to the big house. by the thousand.

[LostAngeles]

A person who would read aloud the test to Paul's son. I suspect Paul's son and the reader would have to be in their own room.

{editied for clarity}

Having done some reading from time to time, for a blind student we would also mark the test or a separate sheet for them.

[LW]

By alternating between ACDC and ABBA, we pay homage to the legends of pop and also cover every letter, ensuring at least some chance of getting 100%.

The One True Answer Key for a 10-question exam is: "ACDCABBACD".

[ranson]

I always went with ABACADABA.

Heavily weighted toward A, but it's so close to the magic word . . .

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Well, today is the final day of this extravaganza. Luke is just about catatonic. But we're pleased to know that his school will be penalized because they weren't allowed to do the very thing they were chartered to do, yet Luke will get absolutely no benefit out of it. What more could one ask for a week's worth of agony?

~~ Paul

[Kiless]

Well, today is the final day of this extravaganza. Luke is just about catatonic. But we're pleased to know that his school will be penalized because they weren't allowed to do the very thing they were chartered to do, yet Luke will get absolutely no benefit out of it. What more could one ask for a week's worth of agony?

~~ Paul

God, that's disgusting. :mad: Bloody sodding hell. :(

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Ah well, in another hour he'll be done. I suspect when we receive his test scores in August,* we will simply deposit them unopened in the trash.

~~ Paul

* Note how you get the scores too late to use the information for summer tutoring. It's just so well done from so many angles.

[Melendwyr]

Yes, Zim *will* make you stoopid.

Stoopid like a moose, Mr. Anagnostopoulos. Stoopid like a moose!

I particularly recommend "Dark Harvest" as the episode that most accurately represents the school systems of the United States. Speak to She Who Must Be Blamed, I think she's a fan.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Stoopid moosies unite!

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Here is the response from the MCAS department, with my responses intertwised:

>Mr. Anagnostopoulos --I certainly agree with you that the accommodation of
>reading aloud the MCAS ELA Language and Literature test should be (and is)
>allowed for students with disabilities in certain cases, such as when:
>
>- The student has a specific disability that severely limits or
>prevents him or her from decoding text at any level of difficulty, even
>after varied and repeated attempts to teach the student to do so (i.e. the
>student is a non-reader, not simply reading below grade level;
>AND
>- The student has access to printed materials only through a reader,
>or is provided with spoken text on audiotape, video, or other electronic
>format during routine instruction.
>
>The language above is taken from the Department's publication "Requirements
>for the Participation of Students with Disabilities in MCAS" and is designed
>to provide guidance to IEP Teams in making accommodations decisions for
>individual students.

Yes, I know about those allowable accommodations.

>However, in order for districts to make changes in the test accommodations
>that currently appear in students' IEPs, the Team must reconvene, and an IEP
>amendment written and sent to the parent for their approval. From your
>message, it does not sound as if this has occurred. If you believe the
>school district has not complied with the provisions in the last approved
>IEP, I suggest you work with the school to have this corrected for future
>test administrations. If you cannot reach agreement, or if you believe there
>has been non-compliance regarding the IEP provisions, you may contact the
>Department's Problem Resolution office at the Department of Education at
>(781) 338-3700. You may also contact the Department's Student Assessment
>Office with questions regarding MCAS testing policies at (781) 338-3625.

I believe the school has done an excellent job in writing the IEP and implementing the accommodations therein. One of those accommodations is providing a reader for my son in situations where the reading volume is high. This accommodation is specifically forbidden by the MCAS testing requirements.

The requirements appear to be written assuming that either (a) a student cannot read at all; or (b) a student can read well enough in a high-volume, high-stress situation, without accommodations, to accurately reflect the effort put in by the student and his school.

>By copy of this message to the Carlisle Superintendent, I have notified the
>district of their requirement to follow appropriate and mandated procedures
>for revising students' IEPs.

My argument was with the MCAS testing requirements, not with the school. You can certainly set the requirements any way you see fit, but then you should not penalize the school for not doing their jobs if special needs kids do poorly. Perhaps you do not penalize the schools; I do not know. However, your attitude in this email certainly seems to put the onus on the school, when my original email did no such thing.

[lostnick3]

Well, today is the final day of this extravaganza. Luke is just about catatonic. But we're pleased to know that his school will be penalized because they weren't allowed to do the very thing they were chartered to do, yet Luke will get absolutely no benefit out of it. What more could one ask for a week's worth of agony?

~~ Paul

does Luke have a IEP in place? (individual education plan)