My view of the Bushco players

[davefoc]

I have formed little snap shot views of each of the more public figures in the Bush administration. They are undisciplined (meaning that I have done no specific research to determine their validity) views but I was curious how they track with how others see the same people.

Bush
Lazy, somewhat unethical individual who has succeeded largely by optimizing the opportunities afforded to him because of his privileged life. Few strong opinions about policy and philosophy of government. Largely willing to allow other more interested people to have their way in these areas in return for their skilled support in getting him elected. Unusually non-charismatic for any candidate but somehow seems to do and say the right things to win the support of a section of the population, most of whom are somewhat in sync with his fundamentalist Christian ideas. Sees gaining the presidency as the ultimate act of oneupmanship over all the people he met that were smarter or better speakers or more charismatic than he was.

Cheney
A believer in a kind of industrial aristocracy. Believes that it is appropriate for government to reward corporations that support the ruling government with lucrative contracts. Doesn't seem to be troubled with the conflict between asking men to risk their lives in war while he works to enrich his corporate buddies. Cheney believes in a sort of in your face foreign policy that ends in war if the target isn't sufficiently motivated to serve American interests. Cheney's foreign policy ideas are nicely in line with his ideas about the industrial aristocracy. Sort of war might be bad but then some of that can be mitigated by its benefits for my connected corporate buddies.

Rove
Rove seems to have some genuine social conservative values. It is hard to tell exactly because it is difficult at times to sort out whether he sees politics as a means of getting control to implement his social conservative policy ideas or he favors particular policies to achieve political success. In the end Rove seems to be highly skilled at getting people elected. I suspect he might be particularly motivated to work for somebody like Bush where Bush's ambivalence towards policy will give Rove even more power if his candidate wins.

Rumsfeld
Probably an intelligent fellow, but a little boy at heart who likes to play with toy soldiers. Seems to have a high view of his skills to the point that he tried to take over state department role with regard to Iraq. Bush seems to have finally shot him down only after unmitigated failure. Will leave defense secretary role with some successes and some major failures. Besides the Iraq fiascos Rumsfeld's unwillingness to cancel at least some military programs at a time of near budget catastrophe in the US marks him as a bozo. Rumsfeld seems to be man most responsible for prisonor abuse scandals that may have had an enormous impact on US ability to win hearts and minds of the Iraqis. Perhaps by coincidence, US casualties went up signficantly after prison scandals were made public. Bush's failure to fire Rumsfeld at that point marked Bush as complicit in the prisoner abuse scandals.

Powell
Most people might not add him to a list of influential Bushco players because he was largely the outside man. But he was also a major enabler for the administration. It was his presence that gave credibility to the neocon goals. Far and away the most charismatic of the Bush administration players and as a result he has perhaps been overrated. At a time when the country desperately needed him to step up and demonstrate independence from Bushco when he felt that they had gone nuts he played the part of the good soldier. He not only took part in the UN speech disaster but he stood by while Rumsfeld pushed into the state department.

Condi Rice
Andy Card
I don't have very well formed views of either of these folks. My sense of it is that Condi Rice was too young to have formed views independent of her benefactors and as such was not much of a player in major decisions. Andy Card seems to have been skilled at being a chief of staff that despite five years of service remains not well known publically.

[Mephisto]

Well Dave,

Without researching their individual lives, I think you've pretty much hit on my view of BushCo. Throw in the fact that Dubya was a college cheerleader, had problems with alcohol and possibly drug abuse and you've got them pretty well summed up. :)

Your version was actually much nicer than mine would have been.

Hey look, it's "Mycroft's Corillary" at work - only the second post in this thread and I'm already mentioning Bush. ;)

[BPSCG]

Hey look, it's "Mycroft's Corillary" at work - only the second post in this thread and I'm already mentioning Bush. ;)

"Corollary"
MC says that a thread will eventually start bashing Bush. Which is what this thread is about anyway.Carry on.

[Mephisto]

"Corollary"
MC says that a thread will eventually start bashing Bush. Which is what this thread is about anyway.Carry on.

Thank you for correcting my misspelling. :)

Does it still count if the thread originated with the purpose of bashing Bush? ;)

[Manny]

Thank you for correcting my misspelling. :)

Does it still count if the thread originated with the purpose of bashing Bush? ;)Nah, just like you can't Godwin a discussion which is actually about the Nazis.

[Charlie Monoxide]

It's an interesting way to present your thoughts. I agree with most of your assessments, but I would add a bit more of "unethical", "underhanded", and "outright liar" in a description of Rove. He seems to truly believe that the end justifies the means.

Charlie (he's still a damn smart operator) Monoxide

[Regnad Kcin]

The OP left out the wacky nextdoor neighbor. Wish I could remember his name.

[Mephisto]

The OP left out the wacky nextdoor neighbor. Wish I could remember his name.

Oh! The guy that tripped on the henway or the one that saw a Motta Ewe on the lawn? :)

[BPSCG]

The OP left out the wacky nextdoor neighbor. Wish I could remember his name.Kramer:
http://www.seinfeld-fan.net/pictures/kramer/kramer027.jpg

Not Kramer:
http://www.randi.org/images/102904-Kramer.jpg

[davefoc]

...
2. MC says that a thread will eventually start bashing Bush. Which is what this thread is about anyway.
Carry on.


If all the thread is about is bashing Bush then it won't be a complete failure.

I was afraid that the thread might not get any responses. I wasn't up for another one of my zero response threads. I had pretty much resigned myself to making my own pity response if the thread had gone on for a few days without any responses to save myself the ignominy of another thread with no responses. But maybe when one is the only responder to one's thread not much ignominy is saved.

Anyway that didn't happen so now I dare to dream of more for this thread. More even than another opportunity to bash Bush, although it is hard to have too many of those.

I was hoping that a few Bush defenders might check in and give some good reasons why my assessments were biased crapola. I was actually curious about how close I was to the mark with the various assessments. Of course no one here is likely to be able to know exactly, but there are many well informed people that might have views that are closer to the truth than mine. I notice a few people have already checked in with the thought that I was too kind to Bushco. Maybe my few remaining pro Republican biases are blocking my ability to see the truth still.

I think this whole neocon thing plays a role in all that has gone on and I didn't mention it. That's because I am not sure how it plays into all this. Does anybody have any thoughts about this?

[davefoc]

The OP left out the wacky nextdoor neighbor. Wish I could remember his name.
I thought Donald Rumsfeld was the wacky neighbor next door. You mean there's another one?

[Mephisto]

I thought Donald Rumsfeld was the wacky neighbor next door. You mean there's another one?

He talking about the wacky neighbor who used to "happen by" the White House on the Comedy Central parody, "That's My Bush." :)

[Upchurch]

He talking about the wacky neighbor who used to "happen by" the White House on the Comedy Central parody, "That's My Bush." :)
aka Larry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That%27s_My_Bush)

[Cylinder]

My sense of it is that Condi Rice was too young to have formed views independent of her benefactors and as such was not much of a player in major decisions.

Huh? Condi is over 50. She's served on the board of directors for Transamerica, HP, Rand, etc. She's written several books mainly on US-Soviet relations. Here's her White House bio (http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/rice-bio.html):

Dr. Condoleezza Rice became Secretary of State on January 26, 2005. Prior to this, she was the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, commonly referred to as the National Security Advisor, since January, 2001.

In June 1999, she completed a six year tenure as Stanford University's Provost, during which she was the institution's chief budget and academic officer. As Provost she was responsible for a $1.5 billion annual budget and the academic program involving 1,400 faculty members and 14,000 students.

As professor of political science, Dr. Rice has been on the Stanford faculty since 1981 and has won two of the highest teaching honors -- the 1984 Walter J. Gores Award for Excellence in Teaching and the 1993 School of Humanities and Sciences Dean's Award for Distinguished Teaching.

At Stanford, she has been a member of the Center for International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander Dallin, and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984). She also has written numerous articles on Soviet and East European foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging from the U.S. Ambassador's Residence in Moscow to the Commonwealth Club to the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions.

From 1989 through March 1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In 1997, she served on the Federal Advisory Committee on Gender -- Integrated Training in the Military.

She was a member of the boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San Francisco Symphony Board of Governors.

She was a Founding Board member of the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula . In addition, her past board service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED, public broadcasting for San Francisco.
Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, she earned her bachelor's degree in political science, cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981. She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded honorary doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, the University of Notre Dame in 1995, the National Defense University in 2002, the Mississippi College School of Law in 2003, the University of Louisville and Michigan State University in 2004. She resides in Washington, D.C.

[davefoc]

Huh? Condi is over 50. She's served on the board of directors for Transamerica, HP, Rand, etc. She's written several books mainly on US-Soviet relations. Here's her White House bio (http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/rice-bio.html):
OK, it looks like my sense of it was wrong. But what role did she play in making pre and post Iraq war decisions? I have a copy of Woodward's book about the decisions leading up to the war and I have read about a third of it. I think I'll go take another look at it and see what it says about the role Condi Rice played in those decisions. Right now her role seems to be pretty much cheerleader for established policy.

Also relevant, I suppose is that when Bush decided that Rumsfeld's days of messing about in Iraq's civilian side were over the task got turned over to Rice.

[Mephisto]

aka Larry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That%27s_My_Bush)

Thanks, Upchurch!

I guess you must know what a henway and a Motta Ewe are then? ;)

[Rob Lister]

I'd just like to interject that Rummy is my hero. He's most most favoritiest.

[CapelDodger]

Rove
Rove seems to have some genuine social conservative values. It is hard to tell exactly because it is difficult at times to sort out whether he sees politics as a means of getting control to implement his social conservative policy ideas or he favors particular policies to achieve political success. In the end Rove seems to be highly skilled at getting people elected. I suspect he might be particularly motivated to work for somebody like Bush where Bush's ambivalence towards policy will give Rove even more power if his candidate wins.
It seems to me that Rove is good at preventing, by any available means, other candidates from beating his guy. (Which is more or less what Charlie Monoxide posted.)

I see the Bush/Cheney/Rove triumvirate as wannabe oligarchs rather than democrats (Bush is unlikely to be aware of it, but I suspect the others are). Rumsfeld appears to be an intellectual egotist unable to hear any opinion or argument that conflicts with his own conceptions.

I doubt Rice had much influence on policy in the first term, but I think she does now. For that matter, I doubt the State Department had any influence on policy in the first term, but with Condi Rice in charge it does now.

[Upchurch]

I guess you must know what a henway and a Motta Ewe are then? ;)Yes, but do you know about hendu and all that snoo in your yard?

[Mephisto]

Yes, but do you know about hendu and all that snoo in your yard?

:) I can't believe that everyone here knows what they are, and I especially can't believe that they dont' trust us enough to just ask. ;)

[jj]

"Corollary"
MC says that a thread will eventually start bashing Bush. Which is what this thread is about anyway.Carry on.

Yep, classic newspeak. Facts are "bashing".

[Manny]

They are undisciplined (meaning that I have done no specific research to determine their validity) views...Facts are "bashing".Gee, davefoc was honest about his post. Why can't you be?

[jj]

Gee, davefoc was honest about his post. Why can't you be?

What's dishonest about my post? I think he's caught the spirit of things quite nicely.

[CapelDodger]

My sense of it is that Condi Rice was too young to have formed views independent of her benefactors and as such was not much of a player in major decisions.
It's interesting that you perceived her that way - as young. manny has kindly provided her CV and pointed out that she's no spring chicken (not the mark of a gentleman, manny). But I think I know where that perception comes from.

Looking at her CV/resume she has constantly shone and progressed within the value-systems she's operated in. Her intellect and drive are unquestionable. She's been on my 'scope for a few years. The questions are only about creativity and judgement.

In her current role, as friend of the President - unlimited access - and Secretary of State ... well, so far so good. I see a potential President.

[Mark]

In her current role, as friend of the President - unlimited access - and Secretary of State ... well, so far so good. I see a potential President.

Given her part in deceiving the American public, I cannot understand how anyone can hold that view. On the other hand, many (Republicans, anyway) surely do.

Personally, I have had more than enough of oil executives running the country. Maybe that's just me, though.

[hammegk]

Yep, classic newspeak. Facts are "bashing".
If you could tell the difference between fact and conjecture you might make sense once in a while.

[CapelDodger]

Given her part in deceiving the American public, I cannot understand how anyone can hold that view. On the other hand, many (Republicans, anyway) surely do.

Personally, I have had more than enough of oil executives running the country. Maybe that's just me, though.
Condi Rice may have played her part in the deception, but she didn't write it. She acted within it. She may have thought she was doing so for the best of reasons, because that was The Policy of her superiors and it needed promotion.

Her intellectual ability to succeed in each successive environment may have projected her into a situation where she can dictate some aspects of the environment herself.

Condi Rice is more than an just an "oil executive".

[jj]

If you could tell the difference between fact and conjecture you might make sense once in a while.

If you could... No, I'm not supposed to make that kind of comparison, so I won't.

You have a nice day, now, and remember, the rock still falls down.

[hammegk]

.

Bush
Lazy, somewhat unethical individual who has succeeded largely by optimizing the opportunities afforded to him because of his privileged life. Few strong opinions about policy and philosophy of government. Largely willing to allow other more interested people to have their way in these areas in return for their skilled support in getting him elected. Unusually non-charismatic for any candidate but somehow seems to do and say the right things to win the support of a section of the population, most of whom are somewhat in sync with his fundamentalist Christian ideas. Sees gaining the presidency as the ultimate act of oneupmanship over all the people he met that were smarter or better speakers or more charismatic than he was.
Perhaps a misunderestimate? ;) He can't dominate from the tv set as Clinton & Reagan did. I wonder if he does better in person; Clinton & Reagan of course also excelled there. And I suspect his views are actually well-formed.


Cheney
A believer in a kind of industrial aristocracy. Believes that it is appropriate for government to reward corporations that support the ruling government with lucrative contracts. Doesn't seem to be troubled with the conflict between asking men to risk their lives in war while he works to enrich his corporate buddies. Cheney believes in a sort of in your face foreign policy that ends in war if the target isn't sufficiently motivated to serve American interests. Cheney's foreign policy ideas are nicely in line with his ideas about the industrial aristocracy. Sort of war might be bad but then some of that can be mitigated by its benefits for my connected corporate buddies.
The power held by corporate ceo's of outfit's like Halliburton, Exxon-Mobil, etc are awesome to say the least.


Rove
Rove seems to have some genuine social conservative values. It is hard to tell exactly because it is difficult at times to sort out whether he sees politics as a means of getting control to implement his social conservative policy ideas or he favors particular policies to achieve political success. In the end Rove seems to be highly skilled at getting people elected. I suspect he might be particularly motivated to work for somebody like Bush where Bush's ambivalence towards policy will give Rove even more power if his candidate wins.
Sounds reasonable.


Rumsfeld
Probably an intelligent fellow, but a little boy at heart who likes to play with toy soldiers. Seems to have a high view of his skills to the point that he tried to take over state department role with regard to Iraq. Bush seems to have finally shot him down only after unmitigated failure. Will leave defense secretary role with some successes and some major failures. Besides the Iraq fiascos Rumsfeld's unwillingness to cancel at least some military programs at a time of near budget catastrophe in the US marks him as a bozo. Rumsfeld seems to be man most responsible for prisonor abuse scandals that may have had an enormous impact on US ability to win hearts and minds of the Iraqis. Perhaps by coincidence, US casualties went up signficantly after prison scandals were made public. Bush's failure to fire Rumsfeld at that point marked Bush as complicit in the prisoner abuse scandals.
A classic fall guy soldiering along.


Powell
Most people might not add him to a list of influential Bushco players because he was largely the outside man. But he was also a major enabler for the administration. It was his presence that gave credibility to the neocon goals. Far and away the most charismatic of the Bush administration players and as a result he has perhaps been overrated. At a time when the country desperately needed him to step up and demonstrate independence from Bushco when he felt that they had gone nuts he played the part of the good soldier. He not only took part in the UN speech disaster but he stood by while Rumsfeld pushed into the state department.
Peter's Principle personified.


Condi Rice
My sense of it is that Condi Rice was too young to have formed views independent of her benefactors and as such was not much of a player in major decisions.
I think you really, really misunderestimate Ms. Rice. :)

[Mephisto]

I was also amazed at how accurate Dave's assessment of the Merry Men was, but would add that I have it on good authority that Dick Cheney eats newborn Christian babies and grows a scaly tail at the close of every Winter Solstice. ;)

[Manny]

manny has kindly provided her CV and pointed out that she's no spring chicken (not the mark of a gentleman, manny). Hey, I'm innocent -- innocent, I tell you! It was that Cylinder chap who brought up her age. I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing, at least until she turns down my entreaties in person.

[Manny]

What's dishonest about my post? I think he's caught the spirit of things quite nicely.Perhaps, and perhaps not. The important thing is that he cheerfully admitted in advance that his perception of the "spirit of things" was based on perceptions and subject to factual correction. Upon encountering just such a factual correction, he equally cheerfully admitted that he'd have to revisit his opinion. This is a skeptical mind at work.

You, on the other hand, called his perceptions "facts," which everyone agrees they weren't. This is not the mark of a skeptic, jj. It's entirely possible to arrive at any of a number of political philosophies, or even evaluations of current implementations of philosophies, from a skeptical viewpoint. But you're not doing it. I think it would be useful for you to spend some time thinking what, if anything, you hope to gain from participation in this board other than confirming the consensus opinion that religion and psychics are wrong.

[jj]

You, on the other hand, called his perceptions "facts," which everyone agrees they weren't.


You, on the other hand, have absolutely no clue about irony, sarcasm, hyperbole, or satire.

[jj]

I think it would be useful for you to spend some time thinking what, if anything, you hope to gain from participation in this board other than confirming the consensus opinion that religion and psychics are wrong.
(oh, missed that little gem)

When you've been in the trenches as long as I have, maybe I'll listen to your advice. Until then, maybe you'd better assume that you haven't seen it all, either.

[CapelDodger]

Hey, I'm innocent -- innocent, I tell you! It was that Cylinder chap who brought up her age. I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing, at least until she turns down my entreaties in person.
Oops. :blush: