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Troy
1st March 2006, 03:52 AM
Introduction: Pay careful attention to note this Proof does not go directly to the Scriptures first to begin Step 1, but directly applies logic with the problem of sin into the equation - two things man is quite fond of -; and for you to understand this, requires you have at least a partially working conscience (which all men and women do). Therefore, to not understand this is not because of intelligence or lack of intelligence, but the choice to be impatient and willfully possess a corrupted conscience and darkened mind.

We don't need to analyze the cosmos till the cows come home with grand theories. We can understand that God created in 4 easy steps (by logic and intuitively known). There are other ways to prove God, many in fact, in taking the total of the evidence, but this is one strictly based on logic delivered by a renewed mind in Christ. Inordinate analysis and mental gymnastics are total vanity to make the case that God created. The reason we study the sciences is not to find out if God exists but for the sake of furthering understanding of scientific phenomenon to glorify God. In our understanding of certain facts to fulfill His will for our lives and His greater purpose, He afford us this ability to know these certain things by grace for believers (and even common grace too all for the benefit of believers) to reach on towards the new city in the new earth. His aim is to be with believers in eternity.

Analyzing the universe falsely and overassuming are just the lame excuses for refusing God's salvation because of preferring sin, selfishness and independency from God by emulating Satan. Do not be afraid to let go of your flesh when reading this. We are all made in God's image (Gen. 1.26,27) with a spirit of God-consciousness and all intuitively know God of the Bible is God, except many choose to not receive His saving grace. Smokescreens, which are intellectually dishonest, to cover up underlying motivation to remain in sin are easily exposed. Those in the kingdom of heaven are not free of blame either. Many in Christendom have said there is no Proof for God and must be taken on blind faith. In Christ, faith is not blind. Atheism, agnosticism and any other religion are on blind faith. There is more than one Proof for God, but I find what you are about to read is the very best one, which has never been challenged at all since the dawn of man.

Step 1 - Why is eternally evolving in the past of cause and effect (do not confuse this with the limitedness of evolution, the physical science, since the amoeba) NOT TRUE, in the physical realm (material nature), biologically or non-biologically, organically or non-organically; that is, in its more encompassing meaning? Simply stated, If for eternity things have been evolving (biologically or non-biologically, etc.), by this very definition of evolving (in causes and effects, before or after the amoeba, even before or after the big bang), you would have had an eternity to be perfected (without sin) irrespective of when you personally started in the evolving chain according to calculus where the approximation of eternity is taken as eternity.

Evolution (the limited definition of the physical development since the amoeba) is NOT towards perfection for evolution is just a limited way of man understanding some things for it does not address or make treatment of the spiritual and the soulical, since these other two components are beyond its scope; but, evolving (a different term relating to cause and effect over a greater time frame) has a more encompassing and expansive meaning. If such evolving (of causes and effects) was going on for an eternity of the past (which it has not, of course), we easily would have been perfected by now, having ample time to do so.

Let us not be so restrictive in the petty self or vague with words by generalizing (being unspecific) so as not confuse the definitions of evolving and evolution differentiated that were provided for the sake of clarity. Nor should we behave legalistically like a bad lawyer or bear false witness against what is said here since that would be deflecting and circumventing. Let us not be belligerent or obstinate by misreading this most excellent first step.

The assumption by many unsaved souls (thus, a good place to commence the 4 Step Proof for God) is that the universe has always been going on in the past for eternity (many unsaved cosmologists and evolutionists believe this, either biologically or non-biologically, as they have told me so). Therefore, what must follow, is that you have also had an eternity to be perfected and since you are not (since you are still a sinner and make mistakes), this proves that such evolving eternally in the past is incorrect. As proof of this, we can see in just a few short years (approximately 6000 years ago) since the first Adamic man (the first man with God-consciousness), we have changed and matured in leaps and bounds; thus, we will not need another 6000 years to be perfected (speaking of those who have God's uncreated life). We do not need to know all that entails being perfected, only that it is without sin. And, since we know we jail people for crimes, we know there is this sin that has consequence, and the mention of it does not presume God first, since notice I did not mention God first. This throws a wrench in lots of atheists'/agnostics' ideology.

Note: this proof is not referring to nature merely reacting, but to man made in God's image, and only those men who are being perfected because they are born-again or saved. We are referring to only man, not animals, and only those men and woman who are saved. One observes an exponential curve in our development, not just technologically, but also in our conscience, historically and scientifically undeniable. For example, it is no longer common practice, except in Islam, to sacrifice children on altars to their god or gods. In a very simple way we can say it this way: we will not keep killing each other for millions of years.

The pre-endemic or pre-adamic period is considered the "dust" of the ground (Gen. 2.7). It will do nothing for your spirit and your life in Christ for it can not explain first cause, and that is where it will always fall short of the glory of God since man can not know all God's ways, nor does God need you to know all the aspects of the "dust" to be saved. If you knew everything, then you would be God and would not need to be saved, but God gloriously saves without you needing to know all things. And only the smart people would be saved if you needed to know so much, but recall "that God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10.34).

Step 2 - If, in response, an unsaved evolutionist, cosmologist, atheist or agnostic (thinly veiled atheism since a non-choice is still a rejection of God because it is not an acceptance) comes to you and says the big bang (or other natural means) is the beginning, again, that is false also since material (nature) doesn't happen all by itself. There is always a cause to the effects in nature. Nothing in nature happens all by itself. Material (or the smallest of particles) only knows how to react to the elements and its environment (or other small particles, waves, strings, quarks, even smaller). It does not make a choice. But God does choose, and He chose for a reason.

Some are quick to misread Step 2, carelessly making illogical statements such as: "the fact that parts of nature have causes does not mean that the universe as an aggregate has a cause. You have to prove this by showing that the property of causality is not relational." This claim is false. First, Step 2 does not say "parts of nature," since ALL the splendors of nature have causes, given the fact that not even one thing in nature is known to be without a cause. This would put the probability against the atheist/agnostic greater than a trillion to one, since there are more than a trillion things that have a cause, but not even one without a cause. Scientifically and logically we may conclude Pascal's wager holds true, that there are lots of gamblers out there who prefer to be independent of God just like fallen Lucifer.

Second, if the universe and time are without a cause and continued to exist in the eternity of the past in causes and effects, then this simply reverts us back up to Step 1 which shows why there can not be an eternity of the past of causes and effects. God therefore must be uncreated and the uncaused cause. And given the nature of God, He is God of the Bible shown forth in the life of Christ, which none can compare. Moreover, it does not stand to reason to say you have to show "causality is not relational," for all causality is relational, and there is no reason to suspect otherwise. The burden of the proof would lie on the person trying to disprove this. Remember in the Matrix when the Merovingian made the profound statement all things have a cause and effect (how true this statement was! even evil knows this): this is relational as the effect is in relation to the cause and the cause is in relation to the effect by causing it from whichever composition or perspective you view from. If this were not true, you would have at least some shred of evidence to suggest otherwise rather than self-exalted proclamations (that which evil generalizes in vagaries).

Understand, the evil spirit in the spirit of unsaved men to reject God's love will just self-declare mindlessly, "you have to prove...causality is not relational." No, we do not! I thought it would be helpful to point out this error in thought because it shows the lengths of absurdity in mindless self-declarations that the unregenerate will go to. Why is this illogical? Simply, by proving two things are not relational (that there would be causes outside the composition and causes inside a composition, with nothing outside the composition which would be the cause for the causes in the composition, and no mention of how the causes in the composition came to be eternally existing), still does not prove something particularly, except that within and without are not relational upon first inspection, and certainly would not be the requirement for "the universe as an aggregate has a cause." Quite the contrary, because if the composition of causes within and without were unrelated, then you could NOT say the universe has a cause because that which was outside the composition was deemed not to be the cause.

Therefore, there is no requirement to show the laws of cause and effect in a composition are uncaused by the nature outside the composition. And, if you could show this hypothetically speaking (which you can not), not only would it not help the atheist/agnostic as was shown, but you are still left with the problem of an eternity of the past of causes and effects in the composition, which reverts you back to Step 1 that shows why there can not be an eternity of the past of causes and effects. Let me say it again! We should not forget Step 1, nor should we misread Step 2 by saying, only "parts of nature have causes" are "the facts," since ALL of nature has causes and effects! Nothing in nature is without a cause and effect.

This false premise, claiming only parts of nature have causes, produces the faulty argument: it "does not mean the universe as an aggregate has a cause," yet if this were true, then there would be an eternity of the past of cause and effect within the composition which reverts the reader of this Proof back to Step 1, because man has not had an eternity of the past to be sinless, otherwise he would not still sin (see Step 1 for the proof of why this is so). Do you see how well Step 1 and Step 2 work together like a fine precision instrument in agreement with the Word of God "sharper than any twoedged sword" [sword here means the Spirit of truth] (Heb. 4.12)? The unregenerate will continue to make odd-ball self-declarations without basis or foundation in truth (reality). Their false fruit is not of God, but of self and the evil spirit, for which only Hell can appropriate them according to God's will to allow them to have a sovereign-will free to make the choice to be eternally separated from God. How truly sad for them!

Part fact and part assumption in the desperate accusation of a fallacy of composition by the atheist or agnostic (the unregenerate trying to convince himself that cause and effect do not apply in what preceded the creation of the universe) to accuse Christians is used as an intellectually dishonest smokescreen to surmise that there can possibly be such a thing as a Godless "causelessness" outside the known composition of the evolving universe of cause and effect - which is false, but there is a tinge of truth in this statement, as it pertains to God who is uncreated, that is, the One Whom is, in fact, Causeless. Since cause and effect in what we observe as a law has never been violated, we may humbly accept it is a greater guiding principle, and it would be quite the fantasy life to leap to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a cause. It would be like saying reindeer could fly, yet never once has a deer ever been seen to fly except in story tales. The atheist/agnostic should then discard their notion in a puff the magic dragon scenario existence happened all by itself.

The misapplied use in accusing of a fallacy of composition leads us, ironically, to the conclusion that God created since there is no first cause that is causeless for the creation of the universe except that which is outside the composition, rendering God the uncreated causelessness; He chose to create out of His glory. His glory is distinct, since only God of the Bible fulfills this condition as revealed through Christ being sinless and giving His life as the only begotten Son of God for forgiveness of sins and giver of eternal life. We may then render the reasonable conclusion the fallacy of composition is being committed by the atheist/agnostic since it is not possible for the composition of the universe to existing eternally in the past, nor can they even have an inkling to suspect another law that would supersede cause and effect in the kingdom of God. Each dispensation, the leading conscience on the planet has always been what God of the Bible has revealed ever since Adam and Even in written record when the Holy Spirit came upon Moses (this can be detailed further by comparisons and is not necessary to go into here; but, do state it as fact for your own examination). This leading explanation, conscience and mind of God reveals how the universe came to be, why, and what the purpose is for us. None can compare to these answers.

The Bible says if you seek God with all your heart, then you will surely find Him. It's the person who wants to know God that God reveals Himself to. And if a person doesn't want to know God: - well, God has created the world and the human mind and human spirit in such a way that he doesn't have to know God, live for God or His kingdom. The choice is a free-choice to receive God's grace to live in Christ by the Holy Spirit for the kingdom of God or for the god of this world, to be controlled by the world, with a foretaste of hell.

Interjection: Step 1 and Step 2 are perfect in their presentation that there is no such thing as an eternity past of evolving, a puff the magic dragon of our existence, or a causelessness paradigm (apart from God Himself) outside the laws of cause and effect we see in creation (and certainly pseudo-science is goofy, which says an effect comes before a cause...but then this no longer is an effect, because by definition, a cause always comes before an effect). There is not a single iota of evidence for such a claim by the unsaved in their overassuming, without humility. Fantasies and myths do not count here! We ought not to shut our minds down to this fact. Ergo, God chose to create.

I like to use the famous quote of Spock on Star Trek, "when all possibilities are impossible, the impossible is the only possibility!" God did it! When an unregenerate self-declares selfishly there is no God or God of the Bible is not God, without a valid reason, know their spirit is dead to God, they are without basis, and they are on the road to perdition, which is an eternal separation from God - that is their choice! It is their choice to have this attitude towards Jesus Christ who died on the cross to forgive sins and regenerate our spirit with eternal life.

Step 3 - The next trick that a charlatan evolutionist, cosmologist, atheist or agnostic (as apposed to a regenerated one), being intellectually dishonest with themselves, tries to pull over your eyes (as well as their own in the might of their flesh) is through the question, "why can't God have a creator?" Because, by definition that no longer makes God uncreated, now does it? The subject matter, God of the Bible, of the 4 Step Proof then changes. By definition, God IS the Great I AM and is uncreated (as proven in Step 1 and Step 2). The subject is God uncreated, not as a god able to be created. Do not speak of God, then redefine Him, while remaining calling Him God or calling him a god. You would then be trying to disprove something else, which is misreading the 3rd Step. Not only is this disrespectful, but cunning, unethical and coy. Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). It is important to realize when you draw a false conclusion based on a misreading of Step 3, all that stems from your misreading is flawed and considered of no account since you are operating from false premise by misreading.

Instead of making the mistake of trying to disprove something else that is not God, why not stay on topic BY NOT misreading Step 3 when you try to disprove some god or idolatry you speak of by his or its name which is not God. Simply do not bring this misreading into your attempt to refute this Proof since then you would be talking about oranges, while the proof is talking about apples. For example, don't arbitrarily self-declare Step 3 is about why bad things happen in the world (this is your idol thought), since this is not the point of Step 3 at all. Don't presuppose the third step in the Proof means something this or something else nonsensically, for I assure you, I wrote it, because it is a legitimate question to ask only if asked correctly (which, if asked correctly, takes you immediately to Step 4 to ask correctly).

However, do note why bad things happen, because man is fallen, sin came into the world, and Adam was locked out of the garden, the one sure and safe place for man that was given to him by God. This fact flows from the fact that God created as proven in the 4 Steps which are revealed through Christ, the Word whom came to redeem the world and man; or if you prefer, the 4 Step Proof agrees with the Word as the Proof does not specifically utilize the Word directly, so as not to be blamed for assuming God existed first.

But, praise God, He will not let atrocities go on forever (even though to us it sure seems like it has been going on for a long time in man's tiny perspective, but in the backdrop of 13.7 billion years, a couple thousand years is less than a grain of sand on earth). Ergo, Hell is awaiting those who refuse His salvation. Nothing is by chance. Only we say it is by chance, because we can't fathom the cause and effect relationship, even after it happened, because it is beyond our current capacity to know the cause. We know nothing in nature happens all by itself (the proof of Step 2), so there is a cause which is God given, in the truth and light of Christ, who was the perfect and sinless sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world and the forgiveness of the sins of man.

I have God's uncreated life in my spirit which affords me eternal life - His life. You may speak of gods or idols or other mechanisms, but debasing God has eternal consequences, since God is, by the definition of the word, Uncreated when referring to God of the Bible as so many verses in the Scriptures testify across 1500 years by 40+ spiritual writers in agreement. You can not make the argument that someone or something created God since then you would no longer be speaking about God, but perhaps a god or idol or something in your imagination. We are speaking about the definition of the only God who is Eternal and has perfect clarity, wisdom, righteousness and holiness, in His omnipotent, IMMUTABLE (unchanging) transcendent, omniscient immensity. He is incapable of sinning. Not once has He ever sinned in the 66 books of God's Word. He is God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit: the Trinity or Triune Godhead above all.

Step 4 - But there is yet another and final twist to the demented, unregenerate (that I was one once) evolutionist and cosmologist, atheist and agnostic mind that is hostile towards and independent from God. If this question must be asked, there is a correct way to ask the question. So let the unregenerate ask, "Ok, so a lesser god created, so why can't he have a creator, and a creator create that creator?" This is not possible either. Why? Good question. It is because this presupposes an eternity of the past of creating gods and other supernatural in causal relationships, one following after the other. This reverts us back up to Step 1, which if there was an eternity past of this evolving process (not speaking of evolution), then you would have been perfected by now, yet you are not (see proof for this in Step 1), because you still sin.

Make note this Step 4 is not redundant with Step 1 or even Step 3, but needs to be said to bring together Step 3 and Step 1 by showing that God we are addressing (in Step 3) who is uncreated can not be a god created, otherwise, you would be perfected by now (similar to Step 1). While Step 4 deals with the supernatural (of spirits, gods and other ethereal unknowns), Step 1 deals with the material nature of the universe (even those things we consider chance that still have causes). God's creation includes the heavens above (Paradise 1st Heaven, and 2nd Heaven), the universe (3rd Heaven) and timeless unawares (Hades, Sheol) below. Hades is not considered heaven. The good side of Hades, once called Paradise, is in fact, Abraham's bosom. Christians will experience the Judgment Seat before the 1000 years, when we are resurrected from the good side of Hades. The bad side of Hades is where the unsaved go when they die who will, then, be resurrected to the Great White Throne to be judged and cast into hell after the millennial kingdom.

I know the atheist/agnostic question is if God is uncreated why can't something else, anything else, be uncreated? But, if you ask this, then you have to be intellectually honest with yourself, and do a comparison to this "anything else" with Jesus Christ. There is no comparison. Christ wins hands down every time given His nature and conduct. The worse thing you can do at this point is to shut your mind down belligerently and make some self-declaration like: "no one yet has made sense of the incarnation". If you say something retarded like this, then you should ask yourself, why is it that those who are saved, understand so well the atonement? One simply can not overlook the understanding God gives by revelation through grace.

Spiritually, even psychologically, we know sin needs atonement and is not allowed to go unchecked; we see this every day in the world. There are consequences in the laws of cause and effect. For example, if you murder someone, you go to jail. Thus, the only absolute atonement to prevent the second death (spiritual separation from God) is the perfect sacrifice that is Christ who broke into the world to be our propitiation or substitute for our sins. Sin leads to death because the flesh is utterly corruptible and can not be fixed or refined, though we try. We know it must now die because sin entered. Sin not absolved and the spirit not regenerated (quickened) with God's life, leads to the second death (eternal separation from God), which is countered by the new birth (born-again) or second birth (spiritual birth) which brings us into the new creation and out of the old creation of the first Adam's fall, even to the place that Adam never attained in the garden since he never ate of the tree of life which typifies Christ.

The first God-conscious man was the first Adam. Jesus is the second Adam or the last Adam. Unto Him perfection is attainable; He is the firstfruits of many who will be pillars in the New City of the New Earth without sin (may these 33 questions help you grow in Christ). To be included in God's new creation, first you will need give up your self-centered directed life for the leading of God's will for your life which the Holy Spirit will show you after you first receive the gift of eternal life and grace which is promised to all who would receive Him (John 3.16,18). Only then can you begin to grow in spiritual life as a spiritual man or woman. You can see the need for Hell to keep those who are going there away from God's own. The perfect sacrifice could only be God Himself in His Son. Thus, before the foundations of the world, God set out His plan in His infinite foreknowledge through the way of the Lord. You will know no greater peace, love, joy, patience and comfort: "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control" (Gal. 5.22,23).

We are grateful to God through His wisdom and revelation for this 4 Step Proof for God that not only proves God exists, but undeniably points to the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit in the 66 books of the Word of God (the Bible). History shows over 100 secular and non-secular documents (not including the Bible itself) from the first century that point to the historical Jesus being claimed to be the Jesus of faith. Of the many secular documents, seven of them pointed to the resurrection of Jesus Christ (see The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel). Not only this, but the Proof clearly shows us, like Pascal's Wager, not to believe in Christ is fatal: fatal meaning, eternal separation from God, though, not annihilation of the soul since God has made us all in His image. To annihilate the image of God is not possible, nor righteous. It would be unholy to do so. So, again, you can clearly see Hell is needed to separate the bad people from the good people: those who do not love God from those who came to the cross as helpless sinners to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Addendum: Some have tried to surmise God being eternal, since He existed in the eternity of the past, would have ended up creating man at some point which would approximate eternity of the past of man's creation. But, they say the implications of this are as follows: even though man is not perfect (because of sin still present), still it must mean there is no God since man was created in the proximity to eternity of the past as calculus states is the equivalent of eternity. The truth of this mistaken assumption is that since it is God's prerogative, His will, and His righteousness that dictates when to have made man in His image, man is bound by His timing and the creation of time itself for man only exists in time.

Therefore, the laws for man are laid out by His impetus alone, otherwise then, God would not be defined by God alone, but He would be defined by man's condition. We know we as men did not create God. At the very least we know our Creator preceded us as even the universe which is 13.7 billion years old preceded the first Adamic man into creation, though God did make man before the foundations of the world and the universe.

Additionally, you can't have it both ways. If you say man was created in the approximate eternity of the past, then therefore, you can not claim man did not have an eternity to be perfected. And, since man still sins, he has not had an eternity to be perfected. Ergo, man was created by God of the Bible according to Step 1. [this addendum was not included in the body of the 4 Step Proof because it is obvious that man did not precede God; but to be courteous and helpful, it is included here].

Concluding Thought: Ultimately, at the end of the day, the reason why unregenerates can't sense or reason out that these 4 Steps are true is because God has not given it to them to be able to understand. Their consciences are dead to God, full of excuses and smokescreens: e.g. accusing Christians of being afraid of death when most Christians never even come to Christ thinking of death. An unregenerate is unable to know he has a sin nature because he is lost in his fallen nature (sin nature) of his old man and wants to remain in the old creation. He has this "unspoken, subterranean motivation", The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel, p. 244. If you would like to study other aspects, though not necessary to be given here, read The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel.

Fallen man, still unregenerate, is so arrogant, he acts and thinks as though he created himself. This is the pride of life! Pride begets the fall. What strange faith this is to believe in atheism/agnosticism, yet have no basis or valid reason for doing so. Isn't that called blind faith? All those who are born-again had the same blind faith before accepting the way, the truth and the life (Jesus Christ) to receive God's uncreated life by His merciful saving grace.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm

Troy
1st March 2006, 03:57 AM
I would ask that you do one thing first to soften up that outer shell of yours. Listen to all the songs here first and then spend several days reading diligently the 4 Step Proof.

http://biblocality.com/chatroom.html

Santa666
1st March 2006, 04:07 AM
***Warning***

If anyone was stupid enough to actually read the OP, you have my sympathy.

Santa666
1st March 2006, 04:09 AM
Not to imply anyone who DID read it is stupid, just that the act of reading that particular mindless drivel may in fact decrease one's level of intelligence.

Harlequin
1st March 2006, 04:59 AM
So, it boils down to:
Step 1. If evolution has had infinite time to operate then we should by now be perfect. We are not perfect, therefore the Universe has not been around forever. (confused idea of evolution, but still vaguely sound reasoning)
Step 2. Everything has a single cause. (hmmm, no real justification here, but apparently we're calling that cause "God".)
Step 3. God is the only thing that was not "created" by something else. (apparently by definition).
Step 4. Uhm, apparently there's only one God? (justified because, uh, we're not perfect, which we would have been had there been an infinite chain of gods - What the heck does that mean?)

Wow. Staggering. Where's that million bucks?
Is it really true that this is the best proof and it "has never been challenged at all since the dawn of man"?

Let me be the first to challenge it since the dawn (at least today's dawn): If God is perfect, shouldn't his creation be perfect? You have said that we are flawed and sinful, shouldn't that reflect badly on our creator? I'd say God is not perfect, because apparently he/she/it is incapable of creating anything better than us. Seems a rather sad excuse for a perfect being if it can't do better.

I don't know why I bother, except for mild curiosity about where you will go next in your rant. It's a bit like watching a drunk on the dance floor. You almost can't help cheering and clapping just to encourage the poor fool to do another ridiculous spin. Yay! Wave your hands again! Now jump up and do the splits...

MRC_Hans
1st March 2006, 05:14 AM
One word: Strawman. ... Mmm, make that strawmen.

Hans

Tirdun
1st March 2006, 05:19 AM
This is a repost of the same spam you were cluttering up the R&P forum with. Reported.

MRC_Hans
1st March 2006, 05:22 AM
I thought I recognized it, heheh. After all, you don't often see such an amount of crud in one place.

Hans

Antiquehunter
1st March 2006, 05:24 AM
Do not be afraid to let go of your flesh when reading this.

I know I sure did. Eew.

-AH.

Antiquehunter
1st March 2006, 05:24 AM
Whoops - double clicked.

-AH.

El Greco
1st March 2006, 05:24 AM
So, it boils down to:
Step 1. If evolution has had infinite time to operate then we should by now be perfect. We are not perfect, therefore the Universe has not been around forever.

Stupidity is almost perfect though. One can't reach such levels of stupidity without infinite time.

Ririon
1st March 2006, 08:14 AM
Obviously never heard of the Babelfish... :)

JohnF_73
1st March 2006, 08:22 AM
Step 1. I refute it thusly : It is a logical fallacy. Specifically, "Argument from false assumption."

Step 2. Assumption, stated without proof. Highly reminiscent of ancient "Prime Mover" reasoning.

Step 3. "Prime Mover" reasoning again, this time with another logical fallacy. "Argument from Assertion"

Step 4. Repeated logical fallacy from Step 1.

Now, maybe I'm alone in this, but logical fallacies do not count as a proof, in my book.

jimlintott
1st March 2006, 08:33 AM
Why is eternally evolving in the past of cause and effect (do not confuse this with the limitedness of evolution, the physical science, since the amoeba) NOT TRUE, in the physical realm (material nature), biologically or non-biologically, organically or non-organically; that is, in its more encompassing meaning?
I know that it is a bad habit but when the very first sentence doesn't make sense I tune out. I'm not even sure this is a sentence. It's pretty confusing but I don't think that sentence contains a subject.

Troy - it would be very helpful to me if you could formulate a simple sentence or short paragraph describing what it is you are trying to prove. Without that simple tidbit I have no idea what you are proving.

Here is a good example of a clear and concise defintion of something that can be proven:

'A change in allele frequency over time.' I'm sure a man as brilliant as you recognises this simple and elegant scientific theory. Whether it is proven or not can be argued, I suppose, but at least we understand what we are arguing about.

Without a premise of what you are proving I see no point in reading your proof. The completely incomprehensible opening sentence not withstanding.

nathan
1st March 2006, 09:23 AM
So, it boils down to:
Step 1. If evolution has had infinite time to operate then we should by now be perfect. We are not perfect, therefore the Universe has not been around forever. (confused idea of evolution, but still vaguely sound reasoning)
Are we not perfect? :) What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god.
There we have infinite abilities, behave like angels and know as much as a god, sounds pretty perfect to me. And Shakespear said it, so it must be true :)

brettDbass
1st March 2006, 09:26 AM
Q:Are we not perfect? :)



A: We are Devo. (http://www.devobook.com/)

alfaniner
1st March 2006, 09:31 AM
***Warning***

If anyone was stupid enough to actually read the OP, you have my sympathy.

I got as far as "Introduction:".

drkitten
1st March 2006, 09:31 AM
Why is it that religious nutters seem unable to tell the truth?

I mean, "thou shalt not bear false witness" is one of the flippin' Commandments, innit?

And, validity of the 4-step program or not, the proof has demonstrably not won the Challenge. Troy's never even applied (nor, for that matter, would the "proof" be acceptable, since the JREF challenge is for a "demonstration").

So, Troy -- where do you get off lying like that?

Nyarlathotep
1st March 2006, 09:34 AM
On top of all of the other flaws that have been pointed out, there is this little gem, in the "Concluding Thoughts" portion.

Ultimately, at the end of the day, the reason why unregenerates can't sense or reason out that these 4 Steps are true is because God has not given it to them to be able to understand.

In short, he is saying that this will only make sense if God wants you to understand it. If so what good is it as a 'proof'?

gypsynuke
1st March 2006, 10:22 AM
[QUOTE] Their consciences are dead to God, full of excuses and smokescreens: e.g. accusing Christians of being afraid of death when most Christians never even come to Christ thinking of death. An unregenerate is unable to know he has a sin nature because he is lost in his fallen nature (sin nature) of his old man and wants to remain in the old creation. [QUOTE]

I assume you mean consciousness. If they are in fact dead how can you raise them, are you Jesus? If as an unegenerate I am unable to understand my sinful nature, am I not then perfect as Adam and Eve before they ate from the tree of knowledge? What are you trying to say with the old man and old creation part? It doesn't make sense.



[QUOTE]Fallen man, still unregenerate, is so arrogant, he acts and thinks as though he created himself. This is the pride of life! Pride begets the fall. What strange faith this is to believe in atheism/agnosticism, yet have no basis or valid reason for doing so. Isn't that called blind faith? [QUOTE]

Is fallen man as arrogant and prideful as you are? Are you then fallen, Troy?
Please explain your thoughts on blind faith. It takes thought to disbelieve, it takes faith to believe, you seem to have them backwards.

[QUOTE]All those who are born-again had the same blind faith before accepting the way, the truth and the life (Jesus Christ) to receive God's uncreated life by His merciful saving grace.[QUOTE]

What is this uncreated life you refer to?

ChristineR
1st March 2006, 10:28 AM
Forget it guys, Troy was suspended again. He doesn't post here that often anyhow. I am of the opinion that he is not interested in dialogue, but rather in finding people who agree with him so that he can head his own church. Not that the people here are always interested in polite dialogue anyhow, but certainly a more understanding Christian could easily answer many of the more serious objections here.

Iacchus
1st March 2006, 10:29 AM
Wins what challenge?

gypsynuke
1st March 2006, 10:30 AM
Forget it guys, Troy was suspended again. He doesn't post here that often anyhow. I am of the opinion that he is not interested in dialogue, but rather in finding people who agree with him so that he can head his own church. Not that the people here are always interested in polite dialogue anyhow, but certainly a more understanding Christian could easily answer many of the more serious objections here.

OK.

KillerBob
1st March 2006, 10:32 AM
Troy, do you really think that if you declare victory enough times, someone here might believe it?

Your "proof" has been refuted on these forums. Primarily by being shown to contain an almost endless, and often meaningless, string of logical fallacies.




My new standard disclaimer for all Troy related threads:

The above reasoning is absolutely perfect and has never been refuted. I came up with this line of reasoning, therefore I am perfect and my arguments will never be refuted.

If you think you have found any contradictions or fallacies in my statements, it is because you have misread them and cannot comprehend my perfection.

jimlintott
1st March 2006, 10:44 AM
Forget it guys, Troy was suspended again. He doesn't post here that often anyhow. I am of the opinion that he is not interested in dialogue, but rather in finding people who agree with him so that he can head his own church. Not that the people here are always interested in polite dialogue anyhow, but certainly a more understanding Christian could easily answer many of the more serious objections here.

Oh poop. Why do I feel like someone took our ball away?

uruk
1st March 2006, 12:47 PM
Well he may be suspended again but I'm still gonna say:

Troy. Your argument has been refuted on many levels by many people here. Face it all you got is a load of bunk.

Kopji
2nd March 2006, 12:30 AM
Introduction: Pay careful attention...

Sorry, that was asking too much.

Step 1 - Why is eternally evolving in the past of cause and effect (do not confuse this with the limitedness of evolution, the physical science, since the amoeba) NOT TRUE, in the physical realm (material nature), biologically or non-biologically, organically or non-organically; that is, in its more encompassing meaning? Simply stated, If for eternity things have been evolving (biologically or non-biologically, etc.), by this very definition of evolving (in causes and effects, before or after the amoeba, even before or after the big bang), you would have had an eternity to be perfected (without sin) irrespective of when you personally started in the evolving chain according to calculus where the approximation of eternity is taken as eternity.

First, suppose time started with everything else? Or what if time ran in infinite cycles of creation and complete destruction? Life itself would be finite and always imperfect. Instead of addressing this possibility, you ignore it in favor of establishing a straw man.

Second, you are already 'begging the question' by including the notion of sin. You are mistaken or lying when you claim you are not introducing a scriptural argument, because the concept of sin would be unknown without scriptural reference.

Evolution (the limited definition of the physical development since the amoeba) is NOT towards perfection for evolution is just a limited way of man understanding some things for it does not address or make treatment of the spiritual and the soulical, since these other two components are beyond its scope; but, evolving (a different term relating to cause and effect over a greater time frame) has a more encompassing and expansive meaning. If such evolving (of causes and effects) was going on for an eternity of the past (which it has not, of course), we easily would have been perfected by now, having ample time to do so.

Despite the poor grammar and sentence structure, this is not worth fixing because it only expounds on your earlier false foundation.

Let us not be so restrictive in the petty self or vague with words by generalizing (being unspecific) so as not confuse the definitions of evolving and evolution differentiated that were provided for the sake of clarity. Nor should we behave legalistically like a bad lawyer or bear false witness against what is said here since that would be deflecting and circumventing. Let us not be belligerent or obstinate by misreading this most excellent first step.

I can't make much sense of this; it sounds a bit like poisoning the well. You are basically saying that if we disagree with your first step we are doodyheads. Even if I am a doodyhead, your step one is not very excellent and does not make it any more true.

The assumption by many unsaved souls (thus, a good place to commence the 4 Step Proof for God) is that the universe has always been going on in the past for eternity (many unsaved cosmologists and evolutionists believe this, either biologically or non-biologically, as they have told me so). Therefore, what must follow, is that you have also had an eternity to be perfected and since you are not (since you are still a sinner and make mistakes), this proves that such evolving eternally in the past is incorrect. As proof of this, we can see in just a few short years (approximately 6000 years ago) since the first Adamic man (the first man with God-consciousness), we have changed and matured in leaps and bounds; thus, we will not need another 6000 years to be perfected (speaking of those who have God's uncreated life). We do not need to know all that entails being perfected, only that it is without sin. And, since we know we jail people for crimes, we know there is this sin that has consequence, and the mention of it does not presume God first, since notice I did not mention God first. This throws a wrench in lots of atheists'/agnostics' ideology.

1: The idea of 'soul' has not been established as factual.
2: Your concept of time has been shown to be a straw man
3: You are already appealing to scriptural authority (the 6000 years bit). This is begging the question.
4: How would you be aware of sin without and appeal to scriptural authority?
5: some actions have consequences that might land a person in jail. If you call it a sin or not is irrelevant.

Note: this proof is not referring to nature merely reacting, but to man made in God's image, and only those men who are being perfected because they are born-again or saved. We are referring to only man, not animals, and only those men and woman who are saved. One observes an exponential curve in our development, not just technologically, but also in our conscience, historically and scientifically undeniable. For example, it is no longer common practice, except in Islam, to sacrifice children on altars to their god or gods. In a very simple way we can say it this way: we will not keep killing each other for millions of years.

1: There has been nothing proved yet. you are simply asserting your belief and calling it proof.
2: Muslims do not sacrifice their children on altars to gods. This is a mistake or deliberate lie.
3: Referring to a "conscience" is at the very least, an abstract argument. What is it? Can it be measured? What are the metrics of conscience? How can you assert it is increasing? Post some of that data for us.

The pre-endemic or pre-adamic period is considered the "dust" of the ground (Gen. 2.7). It will do nothing for your spirit and your life in Christ for it can not explain first cause, and that is where it will always fall short of the glory of God since man can not know all God's ways, nor does God need you to know all the aspects of the "dust" to be saved. If you knew everything, then you would be God and would not need to be saved, but God gloriously saves without you needing to know all things. And only the smart people would be saved if you needed to know so much, but recall "that God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10.34).

Ok, this is getting silly now. You are referring to scripture, which is an appeal to authority unless you have established it as factual. You have not. Even if you could show that some kind of god needed to exist, you have made no attempt to show that the Bible is a valid record of that god. You need to do that BEFORE you use it in your so called proof, not after.

Do I really need to go on to the other steps? The house of cards has already fallen down. your so called proof has not even survived step 1. Why build on fallacy? A house build on sand cannot hope to stand.

Diamond
2nd March 2006, 04:06 AM
I'm quite sure there are good Christians reading the OP, hanging their heads and saying "I'm not with this guy, he's clearly a nutcase"

I have good Christian friends who would recognize this as verbal diarhorrea and classic paranoid schizophrenia when they see it. I feel embarassed for them.

For some reason, looking at his behavior here and on his own forum, I can't help thinking of Jim Jones.

Mojo
2nd March 2006, 04:21 AM
Wins what challenge?Wasn't this thread originally in the Million Dollar Challenge forum?

Ladewig
2nd March 2006, 05:18 AM
2: Muslims do not sacrifice their children on altars to gods. This is a mistake or deliberate lie.


I imagine that Troy is speaking metaphorically about young Muslims that are convinced by their elders to commit suicide bombings. Troy might see these young men as children who are "sacrificed" for the religion.

Ladewig
2nd March 2006, 05:27 AM
Forget it guys, Troy was suspended again.

Yes. the ban states that if Troy keeps it up, he will be banned.
http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?t=53000

My, isn't that ... what is the word I'm looking for?... Ironical?

Tirdun
2nd March 2006, 06:10 AM
Wasn't this thread originally in the Million Dollar Challenge forum?
Yes, and before that Troy started an identical thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=51794) in this forum. I would guess that's the root of the latest suspension.

Mojo
2nd March 2006, 06:24 AM
Yes, and before that Troy started an identical thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=51794) in this forum. I would guess that's the root of the latest suspension.That's what I thought. So presumably he was referring to the JREF Million Dollar Challenge.

Mojo
2nd March 2006, 06:26 AM
Troy: a question for your return after your suspension. You are on record (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1477660#post1477660) as saying that telling lies is not an acceptable way of prosyletising. How do you square that with the obvious lie in your title for this thread?

slingblade
2nd March 2006, 06:34 AM
Not only a liar, but he's fun at parties too. He likes to play a game called "Semantics," wherein changing a word to a synonym changes the past.

For instance (paraphrasing): "No one is banned. Instead, they are deleted."

If you search his forum for the word "banned," you find 36 instances, all uttered by Troy himself. If you had gone to his soapbox (it's not a forum by any standard of the word), you would have seen he had some 45 members last month, and now has around 15, last time I looked.

Evidently, what Troy means to say is: "I have stopped using the word banned for my wholesale elimination of those who refute my words. Now they are instead deleted, which is, of course, totally different from being banned."

Except Troy seems unable to speak straightforwardly, so you won't see him post that. Or, if he does, it will take up six pages.


ETA: I think that in another thread, he made some reference to the million dollars and claimed not to want it. I'll see if I can find this.

Hope this helps your confusion. In the meantime I recommend you see the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God in which still none can overturn. That's ok, I don't want $1,000,000 dirty money from Randi's offer. Did you know Randi is going to hell if he never gives his life to Christ?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=51462&page=26

kedo1981
2nd March 2006, 09:49 AM
This is why seminary students should stay away from methamphetamines

ChristineR
2nd March 2006, 09:53 AM
It's a forum term of art. Troy uses the same forum software as the JREF. A "banned" participant still has a history and a profile and could possibly be un-banned. A deleted participant is gone, and will have to create a new account.

Troy used to ban people, but after he started getting 1000's of bot registrations, he just started deleting them. All this sounds odd to me, as bots can't usually get past the registration process, which includes a distorted number image.

3point14
2nd March 2006, 09:58 AM
Perhaps he's deleted them all in the hope that they'll all register again so he can have the pleasure of banning them. I think maybe he has a god complex and he likes to 'smite' Having run out of smitees, he wants to do everyone again.

alfaniner
2nd March 2006, 10:54 AM
So it's back to being a ban(ana)-rama over there...

CrossHair
2nd March 2006, 11:06 AM
So, it boils down to:
Step 1. If evolution has had infinite time to operate then we should by now be perfect. We are not perfect, therefore the Universe has not been around forever. (confused idea of evolution, but still vaguely sound reasoning)
Basic Misconception: 'Evolution is a process to perfection'
Evolution only leads to those that are 'fittest' in a given environment. "Fittest" is a relative term in this context meaning that you just have to be 'fitter' then the others in the environment and not relative to some idea of 'perfection'.

Iacchus
2nd March 2006, 11:28 AM
Let me be the first to challenge it since the dawn (at least today's dawn): If God is perfect, shouldn't his creation be perfect? You have said that we are flawed and sinful, shouldn't that reflect badly on our creator? I'd say God is not perfect, because apparently he/she/it is incapable of creating anything better than us. Seems a rather sad excuse for a perfect being if it can't do better.What, perfect little robots? No. If we were, there would be no free will. Besides that, how would you recognize perfection, unless from the standpoint of not being perfect? Makes perfect sense to me. ;)

bluess
2nd March 2006, 12:13 PM
This is why seminary students should stay away from methamphetamines
:D

Beleth
2nd March 2006, 01:54 PM
Besides that, how would you recognize perfection, unless from the standpoint of not being perfect? Makes perfect sense to me. ;)
Are you saying that perfection can only be recognized by the imperfect?

So... a perfect God wouldn't recognize His own perfection?

Wouldn't that make Him imperfect? It would make Him un-omniscient, for sure, which is sufficient for imperfecction...

rharbers
2nd March 2006, 02:17 PM
"Ultimately, at the end of the day, the reason why unregenerates can't sense or reason..."

That's the first time someone called me that! Should I be angry?

grunion
2nd March 2006, 02:31 PM
I would ask that you do one thing first to soften up that outer shell of yours. Ah, that must be the problem. My skull just isn't soft enough to comprehend the majesty of thought within your post.

Spidey13
2nd March 2006, 02:36 PM
I just noticed that this is titled the Perfect Proof for God, not of God. Not sure if that changes anything...

Iacchus
2nd March 2006, 03:07 PM
Are you saying that perfection can only be recognized by the imperfect?

So... a perfect God wouldn't recognize His own perfection?

Wouldn't that make Him imperfect? It would make Him un-omniscient, for sure, which is sufficient for imperfecction...I'm saying we would be God, and at that point it wouldn't matter.

slingblade
2nd March 2006, 05:50 PM
It's a forum term of art. Troy uses the same forum software as the JREF. A "banned" participant still has a history and a profile and could possibly be un-banned. A deleted participant is gone, and will have to create a new account.

Oh, yes, I know the common usage, but very few whom Troy banned ever came back. They might as well have been deleted, as his banning amounted to deletion, in most cases, so it was just semantics on his part.

Troy used to ban people, but after he started getting 1000's of bot registrations, he just started deleting them. All this sounds odd to me, as bots can't usually get past the registration process, which includes a distorted number image.

To register on his forum, one had first to answer a dozen or so questions he'd posed. Bots can't do that, can they? I'm asking.

Jon.
2nd March 2006, 06:13 PM
I imagine that Troy is speaking metaphorically about young Muslims that are convinced by their elders to commit suicide bombings. Troy might see these young men as children who are "sacrificed" for the religion.

I have seen no evidence to date that Troy is capable of thinking in metaphors.

Kopji
2nd March 2006, 06:18 PM
Diamond
I'm quite sure there are good Christians reading the OP, hanging their heads and saying "I'm not with this guy, he's clearly a nutcase"

I have good Christian friends who would recognize this as verbal diarhorrea and classic paranoid schizophrenia when they see it. I feel embarassed for them.

For some reason, looking at his behavior here and on his own forum, I can't help thinking of Jim Jones.

I agree. I think that Troy is fishing for a particular kind of Christian follower. His banning process is simply his way of separating the 'wheat from the chaff'. Troy's strategy of presenting himself as a leader figure in a Utopian social framework is attractive to people of certain mindsets. The Kurious Kathy's and 1inch's of the world may spend their time calling hellfire on me and cursing me to eternal damnation, but that does not make them deserving of an evil like apostolic socialism. Let's just say that I stay up late for Troy and those like him.

Ladewig
I imagine that Troy is speaking metaphorically about young Muslims that are convinced by their elders to commit suicide bombings. Troy might see these young men as children who are "sacrificed" for the religion

I did not think of that but you could be right. He has a poor grasp of the Bible for someone professing what he does, and I jumped to the conclusion that his understanding of Islam was at a similar level.

'God' inspired violence cannot be ignored for Islam, and then lack thereof used as evidence for God in Christianity. Just ignoring evidence that goes against his opinions is not going to convince anyone he's right. At the very least he needs to show that the proposed deity is not a violent deity.

ChristineR
2nd March 2006, 07:15 PM
A brief summary of Troy's proof, in English. There's a lot of wandering about in there that has nothing to do with the proof, but here's my summary.

Step one postulates a distinction between biological evolution and "evolving." Evolving is not well defined, but appears to be the natural progression of moral beings towards an improved state. (Parenthetically, Troy makes the mistake of assuming only Christians are moral and are interested in "evolving." Since we are far from perfect, he deduces that we have only been "evolving" for a short time. Since the development of conscioness and abstract thought seems to have occured only about 100,000 years ago, this is not news. Troy however places the beginning of this moral progression with Adam and Eve about 6000 years ago. Leaving aside the question of how moral our ancestors of, say, 50,000 years ago were, this is a fairly reasonable contention.

Humans are working towards moral perfection, but have not achieved it. Even though the universe may be quite old, morals are fairly recent. Until 6000 years ago (give or take) our ancestors were undeveloped morally, and in a sense, not human. Humans are proceeding rapidly, and can be expected to acheive utopia in 6000 years or less.

Step two is the standard teleological argument for the existence of God: all things have a cause, the first cause is God.

Step three deals with some of the common objections to the teleological argument. For example, does God have a creator? If so, we either end up with an infinite chain of creators, or we stop at an uncreated being. Troy therefore infers an uncreated being.

Step four makes a further argument for an uncreated being, namely that an infinite chain of creators would imply a long time for the development of morals as in step one.

The world exists, therefore, it has a cause. This cause is God. If there were an infinite chain of creator-Gods, the universe would have acheived moral perfection. Therefore the first cause is an uncreated being.

Finally, Troy addresses the question of why if there is an eternal, uncreated, God, why can't there be an eternal, uncreated universe? His answer to that is that the universe is imperfect, but Christ was perfect. Since all moral beings are proceeding towards moral perfection, we infer that Christ is eternal but the universe is not.

If the universe were eternal, then there would moral perfection. But the universe is not perfect, therefore not eternal, therefore created. This creator must be the perfect being, i.e., Christ.

My comments: The concept of morally evolving is appealing but not fully developed. Really there is no clear analysis of what this means.

The objections to the teleological argument are curious. He states some of the standard questions which are used to discredit the argument, and then basically agrees with him. However he has not properly addressed the two main objections to the teleological argument: (1) that there is no proof that the first cause is a god, let alone the God of the bible, and (2) that if one can postulate an eternal, perfect God, one can certainly postulate an eternal universe.

His primary argument to the objections goes back to the concept of "moral evolving." The universe cannot be both eternal and immoral. He does not properly address the question of whether the first cause might not be God. He seems to conflate the idea of a uncaused being with a morally perfect being.

Step four is entirely useless because it depends on the shaky assertion that Christ was morally perfect.

In my opinion, the highlight of this proof is the argument (possibly original to Troy) that all self-aware beings proceed towards moral perfection and that an uncreated being must therefore be morally perfect. However he has failed to prove the necessity of an uncreated, eternal (hence perfect) being, nor has he established when and how (and if) beings truly proceed to moral perfection.

Kopji
3rd March 2006, 12:41 PM
Troy is only reasonable if conflicting data is discarded.

We evolve by natural selection not individually, but as social animals. We communicate faster and live in more complex social groups. That does not prove we were created by a supernatural deity. If we think it does it is because we are thinking goofy things.

The world exists, therefore, it has a cause. This cause is God. If there were an infinite chain of creator-Gods, the universe would have acheived moral perfection. Therefore the first cause is an uncreated being.

I'm sorry, your translation of Troy makes no more sense than the original Troy. What is an infinite chain of Gods? If God says he's eternal, but really isn't, why is anyone still here arguing?

The notion that the goal of life is moral perfection is a 'begging the question' fallacy.

Maybe, just maybe, there is nothing at all about this world that indicates there are multitudes of people like Troy populating an invisible Utopian paradise with eternal supernatural deities reigning over supernatural beings.
Except maybe the Bible...

But instead of this dreadful possibility making the Bible a suspect source of knowledge, it is viewed as the benchmark for it. That's what I mean. I need to hear something besides:

"I believe what the Bible says is perfect therefore the Bible is true".

ChristineR
3rd March 2006, 02:11 PM
Okay, let me try to expand. This is pretty standard stuff.

The world exists.
Either the universe was created, or it is eternal.
But if the universe were eternal, it would have acheived moral perfection.
Therefore, the universe was created.

We can refer to the creator as "God."
Could "God" be created? Is "God" really God?

If "God" has a creator, call it "God+" Clearly we can ask the same questions about "God+" and "God++" and so on. Either we have an infinite progression of "Gods" or we end with a primary creator.
If there were an infinite sequence of "Gods," they would have acheived moral perfection. Therefore there is a primary creator, and that is God.

Since God is eternal, he is morally perfect.

Note that none of this so far uses the Bible. Troy keeps throwing Bible in there, but that's a mistake.

Note that he claims that the infinite sequence of "Gods" implies moral perfection in the universe, but that the single, morally perfect, God, could create an imperfect universe.

He's also wrong about the claim that there are 100 first century documents concerning Jesus. There are about 50 and only two are non-Christian, and one probably doesn't refer to Jesus at all. None of the early non-Christian sources seem to have anything to say about the resurrection--they are mostly complaints about what idiots the Christians are.

Kopji
4th March 2006, 03:26 PM
Hi Christine,
I'm not trying to be pedantic, but that still does not make any sense to me.
I'm not sure I can make it any more clear than that. Let's just take the first four lines:

1: The world exists.
2: Either the universe was created, or it is eternal.
3: But if the universe were eternal, it would have acheived moral perfection.
4: Therefore, the universe was created.


1: The world exists.
Ok, I am willing to concede that for the sake of discussion. If the world does not really exist it is at least a persistent enough illusion to say it does. I'm cool with that.

2: Either the universe was created, or it is eternal.
You are already beginning to imply that if something is eternal it must be 'open ended' rather than endlessly recursive. You already ignore a hypothesis that the 'universe' goes through cycles of utter destruction and creation just because it is inconvenient to the objective of introducing the need for a creator in later steps. Do see where I'm going here?

In order to prove an eternal God you need to make a claim that we know something about the universe that we don't, or more precisely, can't know. Some truth is always unknowable.

3: But if the universe were eternal, it would have acheived moral perfection.

Maybe my problem is that I don't understand how you can even introduce the idea of 'moral perfection' at this stage of the argument. Tell me how you know that what we have now is not moral perfection, or that it was reached in some distant past. Additionally, you would already be off building a straw man. You have no idea how things came to be.

4: Therefore, the universe was created.
But I've already said that the universe could be eternal in a recursive way rather than open ended. Suppose that time began with the universe already in that configuration.

My point is, that possibility is rejected just so you can prove God.

Hey how about this?
1: Either God exists, or god does not exist.
2: If God exists, God is eternal and omnipotent.
3: If God had those qualities, we would have achieved moral perfection by now.
4: We are not morally perfect, therefore God does not exist.

ChristineR
4th March 2006, 03:43 PM
First of all, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm trying to clarify the essense of Troy's proof. I'm fascinated by proofs of the existence of God, and while many have come up over the centuries, all are easily dismissed. This one appears to be new, introducing the supposition of moral purpose. Unfortunately Troy is barely coherent and I'm probably misrepresenting whatever he thinks he's saying--if he even knows what he's saying.

Troy has not properly defined moral perfection. It's my term, not his. He seems to think the idea that all things proceed towards perfection is so self evident that he doesn't have to establish it. It is this undefined terminology that really undermines the "proof."

The theory of the the recursive and cycling universe is also (I think) handled in the idea of perfection. If the universe is heading for perfection, then a collapse and a new big bang would be a U-turn away from perfection (ala Troy). Indeed, Troy really doesn't acknowledge the possibility of any action that does not move towards his perfection. Even if we assume an open-ended universe there is no reason to believe that it is getting better.

This would also make a pretty nice proof for the demiurge (the evil god that actually created the universe).

Beleth
4th March 2006, 04:05 PM
Sometimes I feel like making a form letter like the one I heard a math society made for submissions they received for proofs of Fermat's Last Theorem.

"Thank you for submitting your logical proof that God exists.
Your first error is on line ________ ."

Kopji
4th March 2006, 04:24 PM
I don't see anything new. It reminds me of Anselm's Ontological argument or one of Aquinas's "proofs", but not as good.

In a complex world of words, symbols, and art, our knowledge of 'truth' is always incomplete. "God" is simply an idea that falls outside our ability to ever know with surety.

The danger that Troy represents is that instead of admitting we can never 'absolutely know' and rely instead on faith, "sight" is introduced. 'Revelation' is brought into play to fill in this knowledge gap. God communicates with us, or at least a few of us. The easiest way to 'prove' a deity exists is to claim you speak with it or for it isn't it?

...And only the most depraved wickedness could refuse to acknowledge it. We must fear Truth and attempt to suppress it. Maybe we are even possessed by the devil.

These do not seem like new ideas to me.




Truth and Falsehood were bathing. Falsehood came out of the water first and dressed herself in Truth's clothes. Truth, unwilling to put on the garments of Falsehood, went naked. -unknown

ChristineR
4th March 2006, 05:19 PM
It's basically the teleological argument, like Aquainas'. The ontological part, I don't really see, except that Troy is trying to force God into existence just by virtue of God's goodness. I'll think about it some more. Maybe I can massage it into a proof combining the two.

Zbu
4th March 2006, 05:56 PM
I think I can sum this up:

Troy is just a moron who thinks he's getting back at us by spouting his crap and probably a sad pathetic person with elitist issues because he cannot relate to anybody. He probably has a mental issue to boot.

Educated guess, but more reasonable than his 'proof.' Sad thing psychotics like him always pull that old English trick about 'if you can't understand it, it's beneath you.' Pffffffffft.

catbasket
4th March 2006, 07:09 PM
After one paragraph I suspected drivel. After two paragraphs I was convinced it was drivel. I read no further paragraphs.

Skim-reading the rest I realised it's now suspended. Quality.

(Note to self: must fix the "" key. Hmm, "L" key)

jj
4th March 2006, 07:15 PM
Well, since the first sentence (if that morbid, chaotic construction can be called a sentence) is both circular and says "if you don't agree with this, you're defective", I think we can see where the rest is headed.

Between the "proof by assertion", the circularity, and almost every other rhetorical fallacy I can think of, I hardly know where to start on this.

Tricky
5th March 2006, 10:11 PM
Just heard a great term for people like Troy and Kathy, the kind who continuously spout the same old stuff. (I have to credit for this one to Beth Patterson (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000JCBC/qid=1141621566/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-1097952-3822512?s=music&v=glance&n=5174) ,one of the finest singer/songwriters and bouzouki players in the world.) She calls them "angel retentive". She was referring to a former college roommate who had been saved. After years of being a wild child, she found Jesus, and claimed to be a "born again virgin". Beth wasn't sure how one got to be a born again virgin, but she suspected it had to do with an odometer flip.

ChristineR
6th March 2006, 09:51 AM
Just heard a great term for people like Troy and Kathy, the kind who continuously spout the same old stuff. (I have to credit for this one to Beth Patterson (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000JCBC/qid=1141621566/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-1097952-3822512?s=music&v=glance&n=5174) ,one of the finest singer/songwriters and bouzouki players in the world.) She calls them "angel retentive". She was referring to a former college roommate who had been saved. After years of being a wild child, she found Jesus, and claimed to be a "born again virgin". Beth wasn't sure how one got to be a born again virgin, but she suspected it had to do with an odometer flip.

It means you get to say "oh hell, what's the point of waiting?" all over again.:cool:

Zbu
7th March 2006, 07:17 AM
Angel retentive? That's in the running for New Sig.

Troy
2nd April 2006, 12:19 AM
Spam removed.

As per his previous warning Troy has been banned.

strathmeyer
2nd April 2006, 12:40 AM
Troy - perhaps you would know what was wrong with this proof if you didn't ban everyone who told you what was wrong with it in your forum.

Chris O.
2nd April 2006, 12:41 AM
So if God hasn't given it to us to understand, aren't your efforts here wasted? For who can thwart the will of God? Aren't you in effect saying that we don't believe because God doesn't want us to believe? If God wants us to go to heaven, he'll make us understand.

You = Troll

The_Fire
2nd April 2006, 12:54 AM
Bloody Hell, not this joker again!

Troy
2nd April 2006, 12:59 AM
After several hundred posts, over 100,000 views, and not banning a single person, none could disprove the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God.

The_Fire
2nd April 2006, 01:06 AM
Thats because you banned them as soon as they either registered or opened their mouth.

strathmeyer
2nd April 2006, 01:06 AM
After several hundred posts, over 100,000 views, and not banning a single person, none could disprove the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God.

No, Troy. Not being able to get it through your thick skull why you are wrong is not the same as not being able to disprove it. Why can't you understand things as simple as this?

And what do you mean 'not banning a single person'. We're obviously talking about different things.

Troy
2nd April 2006, 01:06 AM
Could certain people stop trolling and spamming this post please. Thank you.

The_Fire
2nd April 2006, 01:07 AM
Could certain people stop trolling and spamming this post please. Thank you.
Pot, meet kettle.....

Troy
2nd April 2006, 01:07 AM
Remember, this is the original revelation and Proof the Word of God is unveiled through in knowing God uncreated.

The_Fire
2nd April 2006, 01:10 AM
:rolleyes:

H3LL
2nd April 2006, 01:11 AM
4 Easy Steps that Prove God of the Bible (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm)



Introduction: Pay
....ramble....
grace.

No


.

The_Fire
2nd April 2006, 01:12 AM
Just in case anyone is wondering what the heck Troy is blatthering about, heres his earlier "contributions" to this particular forum. Perhaps a Moderator could merge the threads for comprehension?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=51794
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52943

Now THATS spamming if I ever seen it!

Cecil
2nd April 2006, 01:21 AM
I was going to make the point that "Step 2" is clearly false, but then I realised that just about every paragraph is clearly false. Then I realised that no matter how silly an argument may appear, there are probably always fence-sitters who would benefit from a debunking. So... (in short)

Not only is it non-sensical to generalise from the internal laws of physics of a universe to external events (creation), and ignoring the fact that it makes less sense to postulate "God" as the uncaused thing than it does it to postulate the universe itself as the uncaused thing, the very premise of the argument is false, since a very large number of particle/anti-particle pairs spontaneously appear and disappear every second without any cause whatsoever.

Wow, that sentence ended up a lot bigger than it started off being.

Troy
2nd April 2006, 01:26 AM
It is not that the truth is unreasonable but that it is unloved.

Self-declarations are of no concern.

The_Fire
2nd April 2006, 01:37 AM
And just because you post something ad naseum doesn't make it anymore the truth.....

brodski
2nd April 2006, 01:42 AM
And just because you post something ad naseum doesn't make it anymore the truth.....

no, we all know that you've got to say

"it's true :) "

at the end of your post to make something true.

Troy
2nd April 2006, 01:44 AM
The 4 Step Proof is the proof for God of the Bible.

Spend some time with it to see that it is so and that you have nothing valid to say against it.

Proof is in the pudding as they say.

The_Fire
2nd April 2006, 01:47 AM
Speaking of proof, where are yours?

The_Fire
2nd April 2006, 01:48 AM
no, we all know that you've got to say

"it's true :) "

at the end of your post to make something true.
*Snigger*

Timothy
2nd April 2006, 01:58 AM
A "proof" is not a demonstration.

Your "Official Submission" is neither, and is hereby rejected.

Please learn how to read before attempting to apply again.

- Timothy

ChristineR
2nd April 2006, 09:34 AM
:cry1

I liked Troy.

The_Fire
2nd April 2006, 09:50 AM
Me too...In the same sort as my parents cat loves his chewtoy......

eri
2nd April 2006, 12:14 PM
I really need to start getting up earlier in the morning. By the time I get here, all the fun is over.

Penny
3rd April 2006, 06:58 PM
Proof is in the pudding as they say.
No, No, No!

The proof of the pudding is in the eating!

Oooh, now I'm really mad.

joller
3rd April 2006, 10:38 PM
I'm saying we would be God, and at that point it wouldn't matter.
Why wouldn't it matter?
Does being God allow you to be illogical?
Does being God let you make TRUE and TRUE = FALSE?
if it doesn't, than It WOULD matter, even if you were God.
If it does - than it doesn't make sense to speculate about God, worship him or try to get into his afterlife realm, since you can't be sure when he chooses to apply his 'defy logic' power.

In order to prove an eternal God you need to make a claim that we know something about the universe that we don't, or more precisely, can't know. Some truth is always unknowable.

3: But if the universe were eternal, it would have acheived moral perfection.

But I've already said that the universe could be eternal in a recursive way rather than open ended. Suppose that time began with the universe already in that configuration.


Hey how about this?
1: Either God exists, or god does not exist.
2: If God exists, God is eternal and omnipotent.
3: If God had those qualities, we would have achieved moral perfection by now.
4: We are not morally perfect, therefore God does not exist.

I see the use of the word "eternal" a lot - but isn't it contradictory with the way we understand the universe?
From my understanding, there was no 'time' before Big Bang, the timespace got only created then. We can't speculate about what happened before, because there was no before. At least not in our timespace (and in our time sense). And we don't think there's any other timespace outside of this universe.
Even people who entertain the possibility of afterlife attach it to our timespace - the departed 'wait' for us, we can only communicate with them after they die, not before, which would be perfectly logical if it wasn't synchronized with our timespace.
So what does 'eternal' really mean? Since the Big Bang till when the universe collapses, if that's what will happen?

What does one mean by 'God is eternal'?

themyst
4th April 2006, 12:16 AM
I have found proof of god, for god exists for I have found his website, and it is his website because it says it is his website and as he never lies it must be true that it is his website because the website says so and with that logic, all things are proven.



My Web Site ..... (oops I meant to write god's web site.)
http://jhvh-god.livejournal.com/

StoatBringer
4th April 2006, 06:24 AM
Any "proof" of God which relies on woolly statements like "God is perfect" etc. are inherently flawed.
"Perfection" is an arbitrary, subjective definition. We often hear that God is defined as a "perfect being", or "perfect in every way".

However, it is the person who believes in God who declares what this particular standard of perfection actually is.

Consider: Is God perfectly green?
Is God perfectly spherical?
Is God perfectly evil?
Is God perfectly cheese-flavoured?

Any argument which talks about perfection is bogus from the start, as the claimant is the one defining "perfection" to suit his own argument.

It's like the circular argument that goes like this:
God, by definition, is perfect. As non-existence would be an imperfection, and God (being perfect) can have no imperfections, God must exist. Therefore God exists.

Hawk one
6th April 2006, 07:16 AM
I have found proof of god, for god exists for I have found his website, and it is his website because it says it is his website and as he never lies it must be true that it is his website because the website says so and with that logic, all things are proven.



My Web Site ..... (oops I meant to write god's web site.)
http://jhvh-god.livejournal.com/

I see you and raise you with The Official God FAQ (http://www.400monkeys.com/God/). ;)

themyst
6th April 2006, 07:23 AM
I see you and raise you with The Official God FAQ (http://www.400monkeys.com/God/). ;)

"We are not impressed" -- God

Just ignore them Hawk, they are just jealous.

themyst
6th April 2006, 07:33 AM
I see you and raise you with The Official God FAQ (http://www.400monkeys.com/God/). ;)

I just visited the link (HLOLARAWCHAWMP*). If the guys at the office decide to lock me up at the loony bin, I shall be blaming you.

*Hysterically laughing out loud and rolling around while clapping hands and wetting my pants.

Oh and looky there, I have just reached my 50th post. If that is not proof of a god, then nothing is.