One Million Offer to prove homeopathy has been withdrawn by Randi - Please confirm?

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

I read the remarks at NCH Pakistan forum that James Randi foundation has removed the offer to present one million dollar to whom who will prove that homeopathic potencies have starting material molecules in above 12c potency? Please confirm?

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=767

James Randi also removed the offer on other paranormal claim when they found that homeopathic potencies have molecules. The decision was taken when it was found that the price is near to pay? :jaw-dropp

[Psiload]

I read the remarks at NCH Pakistan forum that James Randi foundation has removed the offer to present one million dollar to whom who will prove that homeopathic potencies have starting material molecules in above 12c potency? Please confirm?

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=767

James Randi also removed the offer on other paranormal claim when they found that homeopathic potencies have molecules. The decision was taken when it was found that the price is near to pay? :jaw-dropp

No.

[kookbreaker]

What more can I add to Psiloads post? Except another:

No.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html

The following things are paranormal by definition:

Dowsing. ESP. Precognition. Remote Viewing. Communicating with the Dead and/or "Channeling". Violations of Newton's Laws of Motion (Perpetual Motion Devices). Homeopathy. Chiropractic Healing (beyond back/joint problems). Faith Healing. Psychic Surgery. Astrology. Therapeutic Touch (aka "TT"). Qi Gong. Psychokinesis (aka "PK"). The Existence of Ghosts. Precognition & Prophecy. Levitation. Physiognomy. Psychometry. Pyramid Power. Reflexology. Applied Kinesiology (aka "AK"). Clairvoyance. The Existence of Auras. Graphology. Numerology. Palmistry. Phrenology.


Bolding mine.

[Gr8wight]

I read the remarks at NCH Pakistan forum that James Randi foundation has removed the offer to present one million dollar to whom who will prove that homeopathic potencies have starting material molecules in above 12c potency? Please confirm?

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=767

James Randi also removed the offer on other paranormal claim when they found that homeopathic potencies have molecules. The decision was taken when it was found that the price is near to pay? :jaw-dropp

In order for there to have ever been a possibility of the JREF paying out the $1,000,000.00 for a proof of the potency of a homeopathic remedy, someone would first have had to (1) apply for the challenge, (2) negotiated an acceptable test protocol that is agreed upon by both the JREF and the applicant, (3) demonstrated their claim successfully in a preliminary test, and then (4) successfully demonstrated it again in a formal test.
To date, I am aware of two applications for the challenge that have been submitted, and accepted (step 1).http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=40008&highlight=homeopathic
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=47379&highlight=homeopathic
To the best of my knowledge, that is as far as either of those applications have proceeded. The case of Edith Rothermel appears to have never gone past the initial application stage. There is no indication that any negotiations about a suitable test protocol were ever initiated. The case of Sanjay Vashi has been entirely dormant since September of 2005 because Mr Vashi stopped responding to Mr Kramer's e-mails. If you have any additional information regarding either of these claims, we would be happy were you to share it with us.

[vbloke]

Don't you homoeopathic chaps worry - I've applied for a homoeopathy course (to get to the level DIHom) in order to do what you all seem incapable of doing - applying for the challenge and putting homoeopathy to the test.

[Nancarrow]

Psiload and kookbreaker gave the short answer.

The long answer, of course, is: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Dr. MAS]

I already predicted in the doctors meeting that was held two months ago that soon you will see James Randi will withdraw his offer. :D

Now I predict and note it and write in your books. The word homeopathy will be not be available for paranormal challenge. ;)

[Rolfe]

James Randi foundation has removed the offer to present one million dollar to whom who will prove that homeopathic potencies have starting material molecules in above 12c potency?

James Randi also removed the offer on other paranormal claim when they found that homeopathic potencies have molecules. The decision was taken when it was found that the price is near to pay? :jaw-droppJust to clarify. It does not appear that anyone has ever submitted a claim to the JREF stating that molecules of the mother tincture may be found in beyond-Avogadro-limit potencies of homoeopathic remedies. Therefore the JREF has never taken a position on the matter.

By the simple application of arithmetic, which you guys seem incapable of understanding, it is very easy to demonstrate that no such molecules will be present if the preparation has been properly carried out. Therefore it could well be that such a claim would be acceptable to the JREF. However, nobody is ever going to know unless you actually submit an application.

As has already been pointed out, lacking any such application, and indeed lacking any live application relating to homoeopathy, how might it have been possible for anyone connected to the JREF to imagine that "the price was near to pay"? I'm sorry, but it seems as if this is simply another example of homoeopathic proponents saying whatever comes into their tiny little minds without regard for accuracy - or, as we like to call it, lying.

What has been stated with regard to homoeoapthy, generically as it were, that anyone who can demonstrate that they can reliably distinguish a beyond-Avogadro-limit potency of a homoeopathic remedy from (presumably) the stock solvent used in its preparation, will win the million dollars. This has never been withdrawn. The statement specifically confirms that any means of testing at all may be used, from mass spectroscopy to dowsing. Therefore, identifying the presence of molecules of the mother tincture would seem to be perfectly acceptable. So long as the remedy was properly prepared of course.

So, if you can do it, get on and apply!!! Fame and fortune await!












And if you can't do it, shut up about it already.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Just thinking, wasn't there an article some months ago that the JREF had entered into some negotiations with a group of homoeopaths, with the object of getting them to try to prove their case? The implication was that the negotiations had in this instance been initiated by the JREF, and one stumbling block was that the homoeopaths were demanding to be paid for their services. I seem to recall Randi saying that initial difficulties had been overcome and a large-scale trial was set to go ahead. However, it's all gone a bit quiet. Does anybody know what happened to that?

The point of that trial wasn't about distinguishing potentised sugar pills from non-potentised sugar pills, though, it was about curing patients. Which is a terribly complicated way of doing things, when you consider that if even a tenth of what the homoeopaths claim about proving effects were true, then they could win the money just on detecting the potentised remedies by their proving effects, quickly and easily. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to know if it got anywhere. Or if it did the usual running-into-the-sand thing all attempts to get homoeopaths to show that any of their claims are true are reduced to, once the participants realise they won't be allowed to cheat and they can't do it otherwise.

Rolfe.

[Dr. MAS]

The way JREF treated Indian homeopathic doctor is open for everyone. Indian Homeopath, accepted all the rules and fully cooperated with james foundation but again james rejected the idea of carrying test on patients by saying it is risky. It was again a mere excuse to avoid to carryout the test. :(

I predict, whatever you will try to finalize with them at the end you will gain nothing. :D If you disagree try it.

I will also pay you charges which you will expend in wasting your time with fraud jref challenge. Go for it and tell me what you have finalized with them and where the test will be conducted.

How intelligent we are! :D We already had clear idea about their fraud so we never even try to go for prize rather we offered them to prove anything which you have in your mind and take that prize from us. :D

Not a single claim received so for.

[Gaga]

in this chaotic times, it's somehow reassuring to get back after a while and finding that some things never change...
Aside Mas' avatar, but I see a change for the better here :D

[Mojo]

The way JREF treated Indian homeopathic doctor is open for everyone. Indian Homeopath, accepted all the rules and fully cooperated with james foundation but again james rejected the idea of carrying test on patients by saying it is risky. It was again a mere excuse to avoid to carryout the test. If you're talking about Sanjay Vashi, the application has not proceeded because an acceptable protocol has not been agreed. Witholding medication from a diabetic clearly has the potential of causing them harm. The Challenge application page (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html) clearly states: JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort

Alternatives have been suggested. In particular a proving test has been suggested. However, it appears that once this was suggested, and once it had been made clear that procedures would need to be double blind, nothing further has been heard from Dr. Vashi.

[Rolfe]

Indian Homeopath, accepted all the rules and fully cooperated with james foundation but again james rejected the idea of carrying test on patients by saying it is risky.Of course it's risky to interfere with the medical management of diabetic patients, you freaking moron!

I predict that every protocol suggested by homoeopaths will involve potentially unethical interference with the healthcare of sick people, and thus inevitably get itself rejected. Either that or the criteria for success will be so vague and subjective that there is no possibility of meeting the challenge requirements.

MAS, do you believe that healthy people experience "proving" symptoms when taking a homoeopathic remedy? In that case, surely you can use the identification of these symptoms to determine whether a remedy is the real thing or not. Why don't you try an application on that basis?

With respect to your own challenge, would you accept a claim that said you and your colleagues are unable to distinguish a potentised beyond-Avogadro-limit remedy from the stock solvent (or stock sugar pills)? Would you agree to try to make this distinction in order to prove such a claim wrong?

Rolfe.

[Ashles]

Of course it's risky to interfere with the medical management of diabetic patients, you freaking moron!e.
Homeopaths not really interested in patient's wellbeing? Consider me stunned.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Just to clarify. It does not appear that anyone has ever submitted a claim to the JREF stating that molecules of the mother tincture may be found in beyond-Avogadro-limit potencies of homoeopathic remedies. Therefore the JREF has never taken a position on the matter.

By the simple application of arithmetic, which you guys seem incapable of understanding, it is very easy to demonstrate that no such molecules will be present if the preparation has been properly carried out. Therefore it could well be that such a claim would be acceptable to the JREF. However, nobody is ever going to know unless you actually submit an application.

As has already been pointed out, lacking any such application, and indeed lacking any live application relating to homoeopathy, how might it have been possible for anyone connected to the JREF to imagine that "the price was near to pay"? I'm sorry, but it seems as if this is simply another example of homoeopathic proponents saying whatever comes into their tiny little minds without regard for accuracy - or, as we like to call it, lying.

What has been stated with regard to homoeoapthy, generically as it were, that anyone who can demonstrate that they can reliably distinguish a beyond-Avogadro-limit potency of a homoeopathic remedy from (presumably) the stock solvent used in its preparation, will win the million dollars. This has never been withdrawn. The statement specifically confirms that any means of testing at all may be used, from mass spectroscopy to dowsing. Therefore, identifying the presence of molecules of the mother tincture would seem to be perfectly acceptable. So long as the remedy was properly prepared of course.

So, if you can do it, get on and apply!!! Fame and fortune await!

And if you can't do it, shut up about it already.

Rolfe.

Hello Dr. MAS

These guys have started adding red line statement. :D shhhooo "Properly" carried out. :D

[Gravy]

Hello Dr. MAS

These guys have started adding red line statement. :D shhhooo "Properly" carried out. :D


Do you believe the preparation should be improperly carried out? Please respond.

[pgwenthold]

By the simple application of arithmetic, which you guys seem incapable of understanding, it is very easy to demonstrate that no such molecules will be present if the preparation has been properly carried out.

Just want to re-emphasize this.

The probability of finding X molecules of solute in volume of a real 12C solution is known pretty much exactly. If you find more solute than you expect, it doesn't mean that a 12C solution is special, it means that your solution is not 12C. You may have mis-calculated, or perhaps you did not adequately mix your solution. But _even if homeopathy worked_, the concentration of a 12C solution is what it is, and you can't change that.

If someone claimed that they had more molecules than expected in a 12C solution, then all that tells us is that they haven't diluted properly.

[LTC8K6]

Non-Mas-sheikh, can you verify for me that I have gotten what I purchased when I buy HP preparations? There are a lot of bad companies out there that might sell me less than what I paid for, so I would like to make sure I am not wasting my money.

If you can, would you explain how this verification is done?

I want to be sure that I am giving my loved ones the proper medication.

[drkitten]

These guys have started adding red line statement. :D shhhooo "Properly" carried out. :D

Oooh, yeah. I want to submit my life to medical treatment where the only theoretical basis for which it can possibly work is the incompetence of the practitioners.

Like the perfect husband.... "You've heard he has a temper. He'll beat you every night. But only when he's sober,... so you're all right."

[Raphael]

ummmm...I think the choices for Dr MAS' avatars indicate that he's probably an adolescent boy who likes trolling.

[Mojo]

Hello Dr. MAS

These guys have started adding red line statement. :D shhhooo "Properly" carried out. :DFair enough; it is possible that there may be traces of the MT left in preparations of over 12C if they have been incompetently prepared, and I'm sure we're all prepared to concede that the MAS collective are incompetent.

The fact that there are traces left, of course, does not mean that the "remedies" will work, or that MAS will be able to tell the difference between remedies, or between a remedy and a blank.

[Suezoled]

So homeopathic formulas have molecules. Big whoop.

Oh, you meant the tincture being added and then wooshed out! Oh, sorry.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

The fact that there are traces left, of course, does not mean that the "remedies" will work, or that MAS will be able to tell the difference between remedies, or between a remedy and a blank.

So you proved it that whatever would be the stance is, Homeopathy does not work and whatever homeopaths want to prove it will not be proved, hence no question of fradualant james stupid prize exist.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So you proved it that whatever would be the stance is, Homeopathy does not work and whatever homeopaths want to prove it will not be proved, hence no question of fradualant james stupid prize exist.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. Now, go back to whatever rock you crawled out from under.

[Sleepy]

From the forum home page:

While I’m recovering from recent surgery, the JREF will be unable to process any challenge-related activities. We will not be accepting any new applications or working on the current crop until I’m fully recovered. This may take some time.

Since no new applications are being processed, technically speaking the offer has been withdrawn... temporarily. To suggest that homeopathy has Randi running scared is quite a leap though :jaw-dropp - but that's woo logic for you.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I've spent some time over at the NCH Pakistan forum and I've actually been impressed by several members. While I am not a supporter of homeopathy, many of the members over there seem very honest.

Dr. MAS is not one of them.

(I am about to go out on a limb and make a personal attack, sorry)

Dr. MAS is a liar. Dr. MAS works continuously to obscure and confuse issues. I do not believe Dr. MAS is a doctor, I'm not even sure he is a homeopath. I do not believe a word that comes out of his mouth (that he posts). Dr. MAS is the best troll I have ever seen.

LLH

[vbloke]

I am really looking forward to finishing this course and hopefully putting this whole sorry episode to rest once and for all (although I doubt the Homoeopaths will see it that way).

You see, that's the difference between skeptics and believers - I intend to be totally fair and honest in the test and give it every chance to work, as I am interested in finding out the truth, be it that homoeopathy works or not. I am casting out any preconceived notions and giving it every opportunity.

I'm not even going to try and suggest a protocol until I've finished the course, as I want to understand fully the mechanisms behind homoeopathy before I try and propose a method of testing it.

If homoeopaths are truly so sure that it works, then there should be no trouble in them putting themselves forward for the challenge, instead of talking, talking, talking so much that a skeptic decides to do what they are obviously unwilling to do.

I also (in the interest of total fairness), intend to create a website detailing exactly what I'm learning and examining it under proper scientific methods, using doctors and scientists (and homoeopaths, if they agree) to comment and examine on the course, it's lessons and the quality of education I'm being given by the British Institute of Homoeopathy.

I very much doubt that, if the challenge eventually fails, that MAS will give up homoeopathy, although, if the challenge succeeds, I can predict it will be shouted from the rooftops and it may lead to exciting new scientific discoveries.

You see, I am open minded about this, if I can show that homoeopathy can be shown to have an effect, then we will have provided a method by which to advance science. Great. If it shows that there is no effect other than placebo, then I hope the homoeopaths will be civil enough to accept the findings.

[Rolfe]

Hello Dr. MAS

These guys have started adding red line statement. :D shhhooo "Properly" carried out. :DJust emphasising the implication of this, that the MAS collective seems to want to be able to cheat, by not carrying out the preparation according to the proper documented procedures (I'm taking Hahnemann, here).

We wouldn't be at all surprised if a correct distinction could be made if the applicant was given the opportunity to secretly spike or mark the preparations. It appears that MAS hysteria requires this opportunity in order to succeed. Anybody surprised about this?

Rolfe.

[Bronze Dog]

So you proved it that whatever would be the stance is, Homeopathy does not work and whatever homeopaths want to prove it will not be proved, hence no question of fradualant james stupid prize exist.
More non-sequiturs that have me questioning Non-Sense's recreational activities.

[Bob Klase]

More non-sequiturs that have me questioning Non-Sense's recreational activities.

If it includes recreational drugs, it obvious that they're not homeopathic- they work.

[Rolfe]

A post seems to be missing in this thread.

Today 04:24 PM
by Bob Klase (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?find=lastposter&t=54809) http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/buttons/lastpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=54809)

So I wonder if another post will resurrect it?

Rolfe.

Or maybe not....

[Huntster]

Of course it's risky to interfere with the medical management of diabetic patients, you freaking moron!.....

I believe there have been volunteers for even suicidal medical tests. It shouldn't be difficult to find a diabetic volunteer who would be willing to alter his/her medical management for a "cut".

A bold challenge isn't so bold when the negotiated terms negate challengers.

Finally, a challenge is withdrawn before challengers take you up on it.

Doing so afterwards becomes reneging.

[UrsulaV]

A bold challenge isn't so bold when the negotiated terms negate challengers.


If they negated ALL challengers, then yes. However, I can't think of a good reason why homeopathy requires somebody to put their life on the line to test.

Even the Guinness Book of World Records won't condone obviously life threatening record attempts. It's not a matter of cowardice, it's a matter of lawyers--if you condone and encourage people to risk their lives doing medically dangerous things, and they fail, and DIE, somebody's gonna be royally pissed, and if that somebody has a decent lawyer, then there's potentially a lot more than a million dollars at stake.

[Mojo]

If they negated ALL challengers, then yes. However, I can't think of a good reason why homeopathy requires somebody to put their life on the line to test. It doesn't. All they need to do is to conduct a "proving" of a remedy of their choice (at a high enough potency to eliminate the possibility of conventional pharmacological effects, of course; anything over 12c should be fine) against placebo under double blind conditions, and by observing the symptoms exhibited by the test subjects tell which have been given the remedy and which have been given the placebo. If remedies really produce the sort of proving symptoms that homoeopaths claim, this should be remarkably easy for them.

I wonder why none of them have suggested this yet.

[The_Fire]

Psoriasis. Currently uncurable (allthough some treatments exists which can alliviate the rashes) by western medicine. Not deadly all though highly annoying.

[UrsulaV]

Psoriasis. Currently uncurable (allthough some treatments exists which can alliviate the rashes) by western medicine. Not deadly all though highly annoying.

Hell, I'd volunteer my geographic tongue. It's incredibly obvious, the effectiveness of treatment would be abundantly clear over the course of a week or two, and it's about as non-life-threatening a condition as one can get. Doesn't even hurt. I'll gladly swill whatever double blinded magic water anybody wants.

Nobody needs to go without their insulin to prove a point, and I would even suggest that deliberately setting up a test that no lawyer would approve might be construed as dishonest on the part of the applicants. One might almost think they were hoping to be rejected so that they could claim the test wasn't there, so they wouldn't have to take the test and fail.

If one had, y'know, a suspicious mind.

[hellaeon]

vbloke i'll be interested in your findings and applaud you for taking this path.
Keep me informed as you go along and of your tests.

[delphi_ote]

I'm tired of reading your jibberish. You've been on this forum long enough to learn to communicate with us, but you all still write like a crowd of dunken 5 year olds smashing a keyboard with a baseball bat.

Put some more effort into your posts if you expect anyone to read them. It's not hard to get a basic idea across. Put in the time to make your posts comprehensible, or don't bother posting at all. You don't need a huge vocabulary. Just keep it simple. Watch:

You are liars. You are frauds. You take money from the sick in exchange for cures that do not work. Randi will give you money if you can prove your cures work. He won't do the test on sick people. Unlike you, Randi cares for people. He will not risk their health.

[delphi_ote]

I believe there have been volunteers for even suicidal medical tests. It shouldn't be difficult to find a diabetic volunteer who would be willing to alter his/her medical management for a "cut".

A bold challenge isn't so bold when the negotiated terms negate challengers.

Finally, a challenge is withdrawn before challengers take you up on it.

Doing so afterwards becomes reneging.
You would prefer to risk someone's health just to test patent nonsense? It's easy to come up with a test protocol for these claims that doesn't involve risk. Why are the homeopaths insisting on one that does (hint: they know they probably won't pass either test)?

I also find it disgusting that people are giving the JREF a hard time right now about handling applications.

[Huntster]

I'm tired of reading your jibberish.....

See that "ignore" button?

Push it, and stop crying.

....You've been on this forum long enough to learn to communicate with us, but you all still write like a crowd of dunken 5 year olds smashing a keyboard with a baseball bat.

Put some more effort into your posts if you expect anyone to read them. It's not hard to get a basic idea across. Put in the time to make your posts comprehensible, or don't bother posting at all. You don't need a huge vocabulary. Just keep it simple.....

So now you're an English composition instructor?

My, my; such great talent!

You're a legend in your own mind!

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I believe there have been volunteers for even suicidal medical tests. It shouldn't be difficult to find a diabetic volunteer who would be willing to alter his/her medical management for a "cut".

A bold challenge isn't so bold when the negotiated terms negate challengers.

Finally, a challenge is withdrawn before challengers take you up on it.

Doing so afterwards becomes reneging.

You would prefer to risk someone's health just to test patent nonsense?....

Nope. I do accept people's own decisions, even if they're stupid or self-harming.

I wrote:

...I believe there have been volunteers for even suicidal medical tests. It shouldn't be difficult to find a diabetic volunteer who would be willing to alter his/her medical management for a "cut".

It has been pointed out (correctly) that even doing such a test with a volunteer will bring the ambulance chaser lawyers into the fray. So, I concede that the foundation would be quite wise not to do such a test for legal reasons.

[delphi_ote]

See that "ignore" button?

Push it, and stop crying.
Tired of listening to me "crying?" Take your own advice, hypocrite.

[delphi_ote]

Nope. I do accept people's own decisions, even if they're stupid or self-harming.
Even if we agree what is being tested is total nonsense? If someone says, "I can fly! I'll prove it by jumping out this window." you wouldn't stop them?

[Aepervius]

Even if we agree what is being tested is total nonsense? If someone says, "I can fly! I'll prove it by jumping out this window." you wouldn't stop them?

If it is Huntster I won't. Since he seems to think that volunteering for life threatening experience is OK.

[UrsulaV]

It has been pointed out (correctly) that even doing such a test with a volunteer will bring the ambulance chaser lawyers into the fray. So, I concede that the foundation would be quite wise not to do such a test for legal reasons.

Holy Mary Mother of God! Stop the presses! We're in agreement on something!

I feel the need to memorialize this moment in history, because the odds of it happening again are so slim. *grin*

[delphi_ote]

Is life sacred to this self described "faithful Catholic (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1563309&highlight=faithful%20Catholic#post1563309)"?

[J. Arthur Hastur]

'Non-sense homeopath' the name says it all.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Is life sacred to this self described "faithful Catholic (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1563309&highlight=faithful%20Catholic#post1563309)"?

Thanks for the link reminding me why I utilitize my ignore list :P Has that thread turned useful yet, or is it still same old same old?

[J. Arthur Hastur]

That depends, define 'useful'.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

That depends, define 'useful'.

I stopped following when everyone was just talking past each other, shortly after the stunt pulled with the photoshop of pattie on a suburb street. There was no real discussion of the details/evidence in any cases, just semantics and philosphical differences.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
See that "ignore" button?

Push it, and stop crying. Tired of listening to me "crying?" Take your own advice, hypocrite.

Actually, I'm not tired of listening to you cry. It's pathetic, but sometimes amusing.

I don't do the electronic ignore. I ignore or respond to individual posts on their merits as I wish.

[Huntster]

...If someone says, "I can fly! I'll prove it by jumping out this window." you wouldn't stop them?

I would suggest they reconsider, but I doubt I'd wrestle with them.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by delphi_ote :
Even if we agree what is being tested is total nonsense? If someone says, "I can fly! I'll prove it by jumping out this window." you wouldn't stop them?
If it is Huntster I won't.

Thank you. I wouldn't want you to get in my way in any of my endeavors (although jumping out the window won't likely to be one of them, although I've jumped from and/or through a number of windows).

... Since he seems to think that volunteering for life threatening experience is OK

I sure do.

Been there.

[Huntster]

Is life sacred to this self described "faithful Catholic (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1563309&highlight=faithful%20Catholic#post1563309)"?

Yes, it is.

However, so is self-determination. That's what "choice", and "free-will" is all about, isn't it?

[delphi_ote]

Yes, it is.

However, so is self-determination. That's what "choice", and "free-will" is all about, isn't it?
Would you also then not stop a muder? It's "self-determination," "choice," and "free-will." Your ethics seem broken.

[Dr. MAS]

Dr. MAS is the best troll I have ever seen

:D :D When you will meet me, I assure you will not be having this opinion. When I will tell you what's actually going on here on net. :D I was in rawalpindi. Here I mean (MAS) not me. ..... sorry sorry I can't tell you. ;)

I have manyy professions. Homeopathy is also my profession. But I am retired now. I am too old to do practice.

See NCH new web site. I work as freelance worker for many organizations. I do not charge fee.

http://www.drmas.org/nexttrak_nchpk.html

** edited for spelling

[Mojo]

See NCH new web site. I work as freelance worker for many organizations. I do not charge fee.

http://www.drmas.org/nexttrak_nchpk.html

** edited for spellingI see you still can't spell "registration".

[rjh01]

I see you still can't spell "registration".

Evidence? I cannot see the word in the post.

Edit - I see the word now in the link. Wow, a minor error.

[Dr. MAS]

manyy

sorry dear... I am uneducated. (uneducated means educated) ;)

[Ririon]

...I am too old to do practice...

So Sheikh and the people making these webpages are posting pictures of a different MAS? Or is 37-ish too old?

[Zep]

That's amazing, MAS! :D

1) Spelling errors abound - mis-spelling "registeration" is not the first mistake. Here's a game! See if you can find the others... (No-one help him, please.)

2) What's a "FORECOST" when it's at home??

3) Most of the links are pointing nowhere, or are failing. Except the forum link, which points to the same forum site as before.

I take it this is just a VERY early draft version of the website, then? Didn't have a way of testing it BEFORE you put it on the internet? Or are you going to continue production at the same standard as the current website, which you also created?

Honestly, I can see why you do it for free... I don't think the professional Pakistani website producers have anything the fear from you just yet. ;)

[Curnir]

:D :D When you will meet me, I assure you will not be having this opinion. When I will tell you what's actually going on here on net. :D
You are trolls Mr. MAS collective. I was in rawalpindi. Here I mean (MAS) not me. ..... sorry sorry I can't tell you. ;)
I was in Salzburg... so fricking what.

[kieran]

So you proved it that whatever would be the stance is, Homeopathy does not work and whatever homeopaths want to prove it will not be proved, hence no question of fradualant james stupid prize exist.
Pretending to hide behind the language again? Putting up your own straw-man to knock it down. Do you really think that makes you in any way intelligent?

Please read the following text very carefully. Consult a dictionary if you have problems with words. Ask for clarification if you still don't understand.

Homeopathy is included in the JREF challenge.

As there is a lot of money a stake, frauds (which include homeopaths) may try to claim it using tricks and deception. Hence there are a few simple, and sensible, rules contained within the challenge. You appear to struggle with some of these, I've listed them below.

The JREF challenge does not condone life-threatening tests. If you don't understand why then your stupidity is limitless. This does not exclude homeopathy, unless you want to redefine homeopathy as something that only works in life-threatening situations.
In a homeopathic trial, the remedy used must be proven to be homeopathic. That sounds sensible, doesn't it? The presence of too many active molecules in the preparation is good grounds for claiming that you aren't testing homeopathy any more - just conventional medicine. Obviously there may be small traces of contamination present. I would imagine that this is acceptable, if not unavoidable. As long as both the claimant and tester agree on the acceptable hihest level of active ingredient, and contaminants, before the trial, then the test can continue.

The presence of these conditions is not a trick, nor do they invalidate the challenge - despite what you claim.

You want the JREF prize to be a scam - that's the only way you can justify to yourself that it hasn't been won.

[petre]

But I am retired now. I am too old to do practice.


Have the other homeopaths retired as well? It would be a nice way for them to become honest, assuming they've been unable to conduct the prommissed DBT yet.

[LTC8K6]

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[Mojo]

What's a "FORECOST" when it's at home??An expensive prediction?

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
Yes, it is.

However, so is self-determination. That's what "choice", and "free-will" is all about, isn't it?
Would you also then not stop a muder? It's "self-determination," "choice," and "free-will." Your ethics seem broken.

You're playing games.

Yes, I would likely act to prevent a murder.

I have acted to prevent homicide in the past, and am willing to do so again. Further, such an act fits my religious teaching (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm):

Legitimate defense


2263
The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65
2264
Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66
2265
Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others.

[delphi_ote]

You're playing games.

Yes, I would likely act to prevent a murder.

I have acted to prevent homicide in the past, and am willing to do so again. Further, such an act fits my religious teaching (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm):
But if someone murders themself, that's fine by you.

No, I'm not playing games. Wonderful people make stupid decisions at low points in their lives. Alan Turing is a very good example of this. They don't deserve to die just because their judgement was temporarily impaired.

[Huntster]

But if someone murders themself, that's fine by you.

No, it is not. Such a person would need help, and I would try to talk them out of it.

That has little to do with people who have a disease, and are willing to offer themselves for treatment that is experimental or controversial.

You're playing games.

[delphi_ote]

No, it is not. Such a person would need help, and I would try to talk them out of it.
You need one of those beeping sounds to let everyone know when you're backing up.
If someone says, "I can fly! I'll prove it by jumping out this window." you wouldn't stop them?
I would suggest they reconsider, but I doubt I'd wrestle with them.

[Huntster]

You need one of those beeping sounds to let everyone know when you're backing up.

Originally Posted by delphi_ote :
If someone says, "I can fly! I'll prove it by jumping out this window." you wouldn't stop them?

Originally Posted by Huntster :
I would suggest they reconsider, but I doubt I'd wrestle with them.

...But if someone murders themself, that's fine by you....

Originally Posted by Huntster :
No, it is not. Such a person would need help, and I would try to talk them out of it.

For those with reading comprehension problems, I've emboldened what they can't seem to see clearly.

[kieran]

sorry dear... I am uneducated. (uneducated means educated) ;)
:teacher: Actually, "uneducated" means "uneducated".

:teacher: Similarly, "sarcastic" means "sarcastic".

:teacher: To conclude, "you talk crap and contribute nothing" means "you talk crap and contribute nothing".

Now you are educated.:D

[Dr. MAS]

As you wish! kieran

[Zep]

Witty response indeed! :rolleyes:

[kieran]

:teacher: To conclude, "you talk crap and contribute nothing" means "you talk crap and contribute nothing".

"contribute nothing" .... "homeopathy" .... geddit? Well it tickled me. :D

[delphi_ote]

For those with reading comprehension problems, I've emboldened what they can't seem to see clearly.
You cannot see the inconsistency in the fact that you'll jump in to stop a murder but not a suicide?

[Dr. MAS]

The same ideas we have about you.

[The_Fire]

The same ideas we have about you.


Where are your scientific evidence that your "cures" work?
Where are your response to Zep's questions/claims about your identity?
Where are your credability?

[Aepervius]

Thank you. I wouldn't want you to get in my way in any of my endeavors (although jumping out the window won't likely to be one of them, although I've jumped from and/or through a number of windows).



I sure do.

Been there.

Huntster when you quote, please quote fully as not to change the meaning.
There is, IMHO, some difference between :
"If it is Huntster I won't. Since he seems to think that volunteering for life threatening experience is OK."

and

"If it is Huntster I won't."

One is a cheap attack, the other is sarcastic remark about your own written word.

Although this is not important to the discussion since I was only making a sarcastic comment, you seem to have a quite deliberate history of misquoting.

[delphi_ote]

The same ideas we have about you.
You call that trolling? No effort at all!

:jshark

[Dr. MAS]

delphie ote, what are you doing at NCH forum? trolling or contributing something positive.

[Zep]

delphie ote, what are you doing at NCH forum? trolling or contributing something positive.Would this happen to be the "delphi_ote" who hasn't posted since:Posted on: May 18 2005, 07:42 AM
And whose posts look like this?Dr. Krishnan is buisnessman. If you see his schedule for the year of attending seminar then when does he actually attend the hospital?

...

I think we have visited our time by visiting this thread.

...

May be [username] is trying to convince us that as she is ph.d in computer science so might be she is intelligent and if an intelligent woman can enter into homeopathy then might be she has observed something perfect in homeopathyAnd so on.

Sure sounds like the erudite US personality that is the real delphi_ote!! Wink wink!!

:dl:

[Dr. MAS]

Is delphie not the same person at NCH?

[Gravy]

Would this happen to be the "delphi_ote" who hasn't posted since:
And whose posts look like this?And so on.

Sure sounds like the erudite US personality that is the real delphi_ote!! Wink wink!!
Killer material, Zep. Killer!
But who knows? Maybe delphi has gotten a lot smarter since then.

[Zep]

Is delphie not the same person at NCH?Please don't pretend to be a bigger idiot than you have already proven to be. You can insult your own intelligence, but not ours. OK?

[Dr. MAS]

what do you mean by "idiot"?

To me, "idiot" is that person by which others gain knowledge. The man who provides knowledge is called teacher and those who gain knowledge are called student. Both teachers and students belong to same category except that one is teaching and other is learning. In this sense, you are my student and I am your idiot. I also learned too much from idiots. A scholar say, if there would no idiots there would be no knowledge at all. We are surviving just because of idiots.

[Mojo]

We are surviving just because of idiots.I'm amazed that life expectancy in Pakistan isn't higher.

[MRC_Hans]

what do you mean by "idiot"?

To me, "idiot" is that person by which others gain knowledge.
Well, knowledge, like water runs from high places to low places.

The man who provides knowledge is called teacher and those who gain knowledge are called student. Both teachers and students belong to same category except that one is teaching and other is learning. In this sense, you are my student and I am your idiot.
Mmmm, while trying to enlight an idiot can be educational, most of us do not get the bulk of our learing from idiots.

I also learned too much from idiots.
Well, that certainly explains a lot.

A scholar say, if there would no idiots there would be no knowledge at all.
No, I'm pretty sure he said "If there were no idiots, there would be no learned people". That, however, is something entirely different.

We are surviving just because of idiots.
If "we" refers to homeopaths, then you are soooo right.

Hans

[anor277]

what do you mean by "idiot"?

To me, "idiot" is that person by which others gain knowledge. The man who provides knowledge is called teacher and those who gain knowledge are called student. Both teachers and students belong to same category except that one is teaching and other is learning. In this sense, you are my student and I am your idiot. I also learned too much from idiots. A scholar say, if there would no idiots there would be no knowledge at all. We are surviving just because of idiots.

Back on the topic of the thread, Dr. Mas, you did see that the $US 1 million offer to prove homeopathy (inter alia) has been reinstated? If you can differentiate between stock solvent, 14C, 30C, 200C, 1M potencies as you say you can, then you would surely take the money. As a proponent of homeopathy I don't think you could do anything more to gain credibility for homeopathy than by winning that challenge. As a teacher you leave a lot to be desired; you show no inclination to answer the simplest questions.

[Dr. MAS]

Here "We" means Zep and Me. :D I am idiot (teacher) and Zep is idiot "student" :D :D :D All the students standing near my shoulder are laughing. :D (Oh I am holding my abdomen I can't laugh more. ) :D

[Dr. MAS]

Back on the topic of the thread, Dr. Mas, you did see that the $US 1 million offer to prove homeopathy (inter alia) has been reinstated? If you can differentiate between stock solvent, 14C, 30C, 200C, 1M potencies as you say you can, then you would surely take the money. As a proponent of homeopathy I don't think you could do anything more to gain credibility for homeopathy than by winning that challenge. As a teacher you leave a lot to be desired; you show no inclination to answer the simplest questions.

so the information which I got was correct? that randi has withdrawn the offer? And after this thread it is again launched? please expedite!

[MRC_Hans]

so the information which I got was correct? that randi has withdrawn the offer? And after this thread it is again launched? please expedite!No. "Reinstated" is not a well-chosen term.

The offer has been in effect all the time but the processing of applications was temporarily suspended. It has now been resumed.

So, your information was not correct. The offer was not withdrawn.


Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Here "We" means Zep and Me. :D I am idiot (teacher) and Zep is idiot "student" :D :D :D All the students standing near my shoulder are laughing. :D (Oh I am holding my abdomen I can't laugh more. ) :DNice to know you are so easily amused. But then, idiots often are.

Hans

[The_Fire]

so the information which I got was correct? that randi has withdrawn the offer? And after this thread it is again launched? please expedite!

No. Homeopathy was never, as repeated by several posters, removed from the list of acceptable claims. The Challenge itself were closed for more applicants due to health/manpower issues. It has now been reopened. Now try to concentrate on some of the issues raised:

1: Where are your SCIENTIFIC evidence that your "medicine" works?
2: Where are your DBT's?
3: What are your answer to the irregularities raised by Zep on wether or not you are the REAL dr. MAS?

And several other questions you have been cowarding away from.

[The_Fire]

Nice to know you are so easily amused. But then, idiots often are.

Hans

Yes they are. Offcause if this is how the Collective usually interprets english then someone should donate them a thesaurus, a dictionary and an english course at a WESTERN educational institution.
But then again, the correct utilisation of language is directed by a set of relatively strict rules for usage which seems to contradict the Collectives usual Modus Operandi.

[Yahzi]

so the information which I got was correct? that randi has withdrawn the offer? And after this thread it is again launched? please expedite!
No, your information is not correct. The offer was never withdrawn. You can win the million dollars any time you like. All you have to do is demonstrate that your preparations are in any way different than ordinary water.

But to be perfectly honest, if I could make homeopathy work, I would never waste my time with the JREF challenge. Do you have any idea how much money is spent on drugs in the USA? And even though the drug companies are reputed to make obscene profits, it still remains true that they spend fortunes preparing their drugs.

Now you come along and show them how to make the drugs out of the tiniest amount of starter material in the world. Wouldn't they leap at the chance? Think about it: start with a mother tincture, say one ounce of Sildenafil citrate (otherwise know as Viagra). Dilute the entire tincture to 10 C; now you have 10 to the 10th ounces, or half a billion gallons. Now you just pour out a tenth of an ounce, add some water, shake it, and sell it for about $16. That original ounce of SC is now worth one hundred billion dollars.

Even Columbian drug lords can't turn one ounce into one hundred billion dollars.

Can you perhaps explain why big drug companies spend so much money making things like SC when, according to homeopathy, they could just make the first ounce and never have to use any other ingredient than water ever again? Say what you want about drug company ethics; let us at least admit they are not stupid. They will do whatever makes the most profit. And selling water instead of expensive chemicals is pretty obviously the most profit!

(On a side note... why does anyone ever go to a homeopath more than once? I mean, just save the medicine he gives you, dilute it yourself, and never pay again! Of course, since diluting it makes it stronger, you'll have to take less of it... but that makes the dose smaller, so wouldn't that make it too strong? :D )

[Zep]

Here "We" means Zep and Me. :D I am idiot (teacher) and Zep is idiot "student" :D :D :D All the students standing near my shoulder are laughing. :D (Oh I am holding my abdomen I can't laugh more. ) :DMAS: Students! Here is today's lesson! Black is white. Up is down. Hot is cold. Now you can be an amusing homeopath and debate skeptics effectively!

Students: Yes, Dr MAS! (many giggles).



They are not laughing with you, MAS, they are laughing AT you.

[Mojo]

so the information which I got was correct? that randi has withdrawn the offer? And after this thread it is again launched?No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1550805#post1550805).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1550808#post1550808).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1550820#post1550820).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1551348#post1551348).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1551355#post1551355).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1553277#post1553277).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1597910#post1597910).

[Zep]

(You SURE of that, Mojo?) :)

[Dr. MAS]

When you suspend processing of new applications then what does this mean? There is no more offer. Now the processing has started it mean new comers can also enjoy and compete for the prize that was suspended due to some good and valid reasons. ;)

[Dr. MAS]

Dear Moderators

I request your honour to please edit my posts and delete all my words like idiots nonsense or stupid etc. where ever these were written . I do not use them.

That was a joke I have no courage to use these words for my teacher Hans. I have great respect for him. Sorry for hurt feelings.

[Dr. MAS]

No. Homeopathy was never, as repeated by several posters, removed from the list of acceptable claims. The Challenge itself were closed for more applicants due to health/manpower issues. It has now been reopened. Now try to concentrate on some of the issues raised:

1: Where are your SCIENTIFIC evidence that your "medicine" works?
2: Where are your DBT's?
3: What are your answer to the irregularities raised by Zep on wether or not you are the REAL dr. MAS?

And several other questions you have been cowarding away from.


1. This depends upon the understanding of the word scientific to you.
2. Why you are insisting on DBT?
3. Everything about me is open. I have given free hand to my students to put each and every kind of information on net with or without my consent. No problem to me.

[Dr. MAS]

No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1550805#post1550805).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1550808#post1550808).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1550820#post1550820).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1551348#post1551348).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1551355#post1551355).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1553277#post1553277).
No (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1597910#post1597910).

Mojo is our Link Master, he has to do lot of work beside moderation / administration.

[Aepervius]

1. This depends upon the understanding of the word scientific to you.
2. Why you are insisting on DBT?
3. Everything about me is open. I have given free hand to my students to put each and every kind of information on net with or without my consent. No problem to me.

1. How about the conmmon definition the world is using, and by the time you now troll on this board you should already know it.Here is an help for you click on the "dict" link :scientific. Next you will probably ask what the scientific method ? Try this Wiki on Scientific method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method)
2. Because this is how correct medicine substance are tested. This remove the bias of the tester and the bias of the patient (placebo) and extract the real effect. Wasn't this explained to you, like, 12534343 time ?

[Aepervius]

I feel generous today MAS, I feel like feeding troll. Here is on double blind : wiki double blind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_blind).

The Double blind method is an important part of the scientific method, used to prevent research outcomes from being influenced by the placebo effect or observer bias. Blinded research is an important tool in many fields of research, from medicine, to psychology and the social sciences, to forensics.
Emphasis mine.

Example of placebo effect : give a sugar pill to somebody complaining of chronicle fatigue symptom and he will feel better. NOT because the sugar pill had any effect, but because the patient THINK the sugar pill will have effect.
wiki on placebo : placebo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo)

Example of observer Bias : you give homeopathetic (*) medicine to 100 people , 2 says they get better, 8 get worst, you conclude homepathetic (*) medicine works but ignore the 8 people which worse or the 90 which feels no effects.
definition of observer bias, reason of double blinding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_bias)
Observer bias

The related social-science term observer bias is error introduced into measurement when observers overemphasize behavior they expect to find and fail to notice behavior they do not expect. This is why medical trials are normally double-blind rather than single-blind. Observer bias can also be introduced because researchers see a behavior and interpret it according to what it means to them, whereas it may mean something else to the person showing the behavior. See subject-expectancy effect and observer-expectancy effect.

(*) yeah I know I am myself pathetic with that small joke but we are all getting tired of MAS selective reading answering, aren't we ?

[Mojo]

When you suspend processing of new applications then what does this mean? There is no more offer. Now the processing has started it mean new comers can also enjoy and compete for the prize that was suspended due to some good and valid reasons. ;)Try consulting a dictionary.

Suspend: halt temporarily

You might also want to look up definitions of the words "new", "processing", "applications" and any others you don't understand.

Suspending processing of new applications means that processing of new applications has been temporarily halted. It does not mean that any offer made to existing applicants will be withdrawn. It does not mean that new applications will not be processed. It does not mean that there is no more offer.

[Mojo]

Why you are insisting on DBT? Remember, MAS, that you have promised to prove that homoeopathy works in a double blind test or quit homoeopathy for ever: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=50535
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1487561#post1487561

[Mojo]

Mojo is our Link Master, he has to do lot of work beside moderation / administration.I am not a moderator or administrator here (or at any other forum, for that matter).

[Zep]

All those points were spelled out to MAS YESTERDAY on the NCH forum. In small words of one syllable or less. I can link there of you like, but right now I could not be bothered as it would be a waste of my time.

So his posts here on the subject of the Challenge are are patently obvious trolling.