UFOs and the Paranormal Challenge

[Patricio Elicer]

On the March 26, 2004 Commentary (http://www.randi.org/jr/032604why.html) we read an exchange between Randi and a Michael Horn, who depicts himself as an "Authorized American Media Representative for The Billy Meier Contacts", who basically claimed to be in posession of an "other-worldly" metal sample (possibly retrieved from a UFO, he doesn't say).

These are the highlights of the exchange:

HornMetal alloy samples provided for analysis by Meier to Marcel Vogel, former IBM research chemist, holder of 32 patents; stated that, with any technology available to him as a scientist neither he nor another metallurgist friend who examined the metals, could put it together, could come close to duplicating or reproducing it.

The metal WAS shown to be other worldly [his emphasis] you devious, lying, self-inflated fraud! Perhaps not as other world as the bottom of the barrel, transparently dishonest, deceptive, and previosuly [sic] unknown to this planet variety of con artist that you nakedly expose yourself to be

RandiAh! Something we can actually examine! Where are these samples? Surely, if this statement is true, we have absolute, inarguable proof of other-worldly technology.

Where is the metal? If it can be shown to be other-worldly, the JREF million-dollar prize will be awarded. I await that evidence.

Now here, as I pointed out to him, we have something that can obviously, immediately, firmly, establish that Mr. Horn has a case to make. That's prima facie material, Mr. Horn. Therefore, I ask you to simply produce that evidence for us, through whatever agency you choose, and the JREF will promptly pay you the million-dollar prize that we offer.

From this, I deduce that anyone claiming to have UFO metal alloys or UFO materials in general, are eligible for the million dollar challenge. And there are quite a few people out there holding that claim.

So, anyone have any idea, hint or knowledge of how a proper protocol for testing these kind of claims may look like?. It doesn't look so easy at first sight, but Randi surely had something in mind when he challenged Horn.

[rjh01]

Maybe something organic? I am sure you could get some strange organic material that has never been seen before. Like the DNA going the wrong way.

I would say the human race has made most of the normal alloys that can be made. Alloys would be a combination of two or three materials. Cannot see how they can be shown to be made off this world.

Another option is to produce a large quantity of non-radioactive material that is a lot more dense than U-238.

[CFLarsen]

Another option is to produce a large quantity of non-radioactive material that is a lot more dense than U-238.

Just find a woo... ;)

[William Smith]

...
So, anyone have any idea, hint or knowledge of how a proper protocol for testing these kind of claims may look like?. It doesn't look so easy at first sight, but Randi surely had something in mind when he challenged Horn.

Perhaps we shall wait to cudgel our brains until someone actually applies. Mr. Horn? Mr. Meier?

What Mr. Randi had in mind while writing this? He called the bluff. Simple as that.

Clear space on your table, put all beverages safely away and check out the "Scientific Evidence" section (as proposed by Mr. Randi in his commentary from March 26, 2004) on http://www.billymeier.com

El Zilcho.

[Mojo]

Clear space on your table, put all beverages safely away and check out the "Scientific Evidence" section (as proposed by Mr. Randi in his commentary from March 26, 2004) on http://www.billymeier.com

El Zilcho.That's about as good as it gets. At least it's not obviously fabricated!

[Aepervius]

I clicked on refresh 2 times and used IE (instead of mozilla) because i thougth the problem was on my side, that I saw nothing. Now rereading your post, I understand the el zilcho reference. That ain't a browser problem :P.

[Ririon]

Physic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=physic)? :confused:

[webfusion]

If I am not mistaken, sitting in the Peabody Museum of Natural History at Yale University (New Haven, CT), (http://www.yale.edu/peabody/collections/met/met_wethersfield.html) you will find several "other worldly" metals that are formed of materials that did not originate on Earth.


So, what is this claim, exactly?

[Patricio Elicer]

I would say the human race has made most of the normal alloys that can be made. That sole fact renders the claim totally untestable, seems to me. That's why I've been curious as to what the protocol can possibly be.

I don't think Randi will go on complicated scientific matters on testing these claims. I've thought of some kind of double blind procedure, but yet I don't seem to be able figure out the details of such a test.

On further thought, maybe a claim like that can only be tested if the claimant asserts having proof or reasons to hold that the alloy is of extraterrestrial manufacture, as Mr Horn did.

[Patricio Elicer]

Clear space on your table, put all beverages safely away and check out the "Scientific Evidence" section (as proposed by Mr. Randi in his commentary from March 26, 2004) on http://www.billymeier.com
http://members.cox.net/andalyn/smLMAO.gifhttp://members.cox.net/andalyn/smLMAO.gif

[strathmeyer]

So, anyone have any idea, hint or knowledge of how a proper protocol for testing these kind of claims may look like?. It doesn't look so easy at first sight, but Randi surely had something in mind when he challenged Horn.

Randi explains it there, in the quote. Randi is asking for any evidence, whatsoever, not a protocol to demonstrate something. The point is Horn is just making up everything he is saying; that this guy said "with any technology available to him as a scientist neither he nor another metallurgist friend who examined the metals, could put it together, could come close to duplicating or reproducing it". That's a bold claim, and Horn provides no evidence to back it up. It's like me saying I have a tiny pink unicorn, but won't let anyone see it and expect you to believe me. This is the entire point of the challenge, that people shouldn't just make things up to fool others.

[Patricio Elicer]

If I am not mistaken, sitting in the Peabody Museum of Natural History at Yale University (New Haven, CT), (http://www.yale.edu/peabody/collections/met/met_wethersfield.html) you will find several "other worldly" metals that are formed of materials that did not originate on Earth.


So, what is this claim, exactly?It's not just "other worldly" metals. Some people claim to have recovered pieces of crashed UFOs, so what they in effect claim is that they have "metal alloys of alien manufacture". Although Horn doesn't say where his alleged metal sample comes from, it can be assumed it is of that nature, since he is the "representative" of UFO proponent Billy Meier.

For example, in the link below are pictures of what is supposed to be a metal piece taken from the debris of a UFO that allegedly crashed in the Argentinian city of Victoria. People claim that the metal is transparent, thus giving the material a bizarre property not found on the earth. They say that the fingers of people holding it can be seen from behind the element, although (they say) it's not entirely clear on the pictures.

I wonder if those guys are aware that they can win a million dollars! :rolleyes:

http://www.visionovni.com.ar/fotos.html#metal (Warning: music on the link)

[Patricio Elicer]

Randi explains it there, in the quote. Randi is asking for any evidence, whatsoever, not a protocol to demonstrate something.Yes, he's asking for evidence, but that evidence must come out from a test designed in accordance with the million dollar challenge rules. There must be a protocol agreed upon by both parties, to sort out what a positive result is and what a negative result is, without the need to resorting to any kind of judgement. Otherwise Randi will most surey be accused of making unilateral judgements.

The point is Horn is just making up everything he is saying; that this guy said "with any technology available to him as a scientist neither he nor another metallurgist friend who examined the metals, could put it together, could come close to duplicating or reproducing it". That's a bold claim, and Horn provides no evidence to back it up. That's very likely the point the test should be aimed at. Not just "hey I have an alien metal alloy, so gimme the million!", but rather, "I have a metal alloy which is of alien manufature because of [insert a reason here]", so a protocol can be designed to see if the claimed reason is true or not.

[William Smith]

If I am not mistaken, sitting in the Peabody Museum of Natural History at Yale University (New Haven, CT), (http://www.yale.edu/peabody/collections/met/met_wethersfield.html) you will find several "other worldly" metals that are formed of materials that did not originate on Earth.


So, what is this claim, exactly?

As webfusions helpful link will make you understand, a claim of "other worldly" materials on earth will not prove its manufacture by aliens. (Insert generic UFO sound.)

However, I propose we await an application from anyone (Insert chicken cackle.) before discussing what "could be". (Insert beer tent chitchat.)

Patricio, I probably feel as bored (Insert yawn.) as you about the lack of interesting claims. Hopefully, Mr. Randi gets well soon (Insert "Training Montage" from Rocky IV.) and we find ourselves in the middle of a dozen claims accompanied by three dozen affidavits (Insert hysteric clown laughter.) and a dozen air-tight protocols. (Insert type-writer noise and the line break pling.)

Hey, you can't blame a girl for optimism, right?

[ChristineR]

Yawn. Kaz did this one too. She gave her "Jesus Rock" to NASA, and the blackguards kept it! They were kind enough to confirm her suspicions that it was otherworldy, though.:rolleyes:

[Mr. Skinny]

I work with some of the best metallurgists in the world here: http://www.ml.afrl.af.mil/. I'm pretty sure the USAF would be interested in examining some new "alien" metal if they could get their hands on it.

[Patricio Elicer]

They say that the fingers of people holding it can be seen from behind the element, although (they say) it's not entirely clear on the pictures.

http://www.visionovni.com.ar/fotos.html#metal (Warning: music on the link)Just want to correct my previous statement. What they actually say is that the transparency properties of the metal piece can only be seen on photographs, but not on direct viewing. That makes the story even funnier, isn't it? :p

[Patricio Elicer]

I work with some of the best metallurgists in the world here: http://www.ml.afrl.af.mil/. I'm pretty sure the USAF would be interested in examining some new "alien" metal if they could get their hands on it.That's very interesting, Skinny. I've been extensively discussing this subject on another forum. The UFO advocates claim that the US security and military forces are already in posession of metals of alien manufacture since the time of the Roswell event, 60 years ago!!, but that they are not willing to give out the results of the examinations because it is a top secret giving power and control to the US. So I'm afraid that you've been fooled by the USAF for the whole time, they are covering-up their findings :p :p

[Mr. Skinny]

That's very interesting, Skinny. I've been extensively discussing this subject on another forum. The UFO advocates claim that the US security and military forces are already in posession of metals of alien manufacture since the time of the Roswell event, 60 years ago!!, but that they are not willing to give out the results of the examinations because it is a top secret giving power and control to the US. So I'm afraid that you've been fooled by the USAF for the whole time, they are covering-up their findings :p :p
Ah, I see, Patricio. So all the laboratory buildings, scanning electron microscopes, x-ray diffraction machines, lasers, etc. are all just part of an elaborate cover up that I've been duped into believing was for actual research? My Ed, how could I be so stupid? Here I thought I was getting paid to be an engineer, and now you spoil it by informing me I've just been an actor for the last 20+ years.

[Hellbound]

Ah, I see, Patricio. So all the laboratory buildings, scanning electron microscopes, x-ray diffraction machines, lasers, etc. are all just part of an elaborate cover up that I've been duped into believing was for actual research? My Ed, how could I be so stupid? Here I thought I was getting paid to be an engineer, and now you spoil it by informing me I've just been an actor for the last 20+ years.

We all know you're in on it. Skinny. I bet you have a white plastic chair for a best firend, too.

I mean, really, why do you think they'd won't give out details of the M-1's armor plate?

ALIEN TECHNOLOGY!!!! That's why!

:D

[Mr. Skinny]

We all know you're in on it. Skinny. I bet you have a white plastic chair for a best firend, too.

I mean, really, why do you think they'd won't give out details of the M-1's armor plate?

ALIEN TECHNOLOGY!!!! That's why!

:D
I used to have two white plastic chairs! They broke sometime around the start of the first Gulf War.:D

We don't use much M-1 armor plate on USAF aircraft, so I have deniability. I can't reveal what I don't know. Maybe one of the former Army, globalist henchmen on the forum can speak to that issue.

[drfrank]

Just want to correct my previous statement. What they actually say is that the transparency properties of the metal piece can only be seen on photographs, but not on direct viewing. That makes the story even funnier, isn't it? :p
That's not actually quite as silly as it sounds - plenty of materials show up as transparent upon flash photography that appear completely opaque under normal light conditions.

Of course, the whole thing is still completely bonkers ;)

[Patricio Elicer]

That's not actually quite as silly as it sounds - plenty of materials show up as transparent upon flash photography that appear completely opaque under normal light conditions.Just for the sake of further clarification, they say it is a metallic element, and they don't mention anything even close to the fact that the "transparency" is due to a flash photography effect.

[vIQleS]

Just for the sake of further clarification, they say it is a metallic element, and they don't mention anything even close to the fact that the "transparency" is due to a flash photography effect.

I may be looking at the wrong photos but I'm afraid I couldn't see any evidence of transparency at all. There were a couple of weird reflections on two of the photos, but it didn't make the strip of metal look see-through at all...

What am I missing?

[Patricio Elicer]

I may be looking at the wrong photos but I'm afraid I couldn't see any evidence of transparency at all. There were a couple of weird reflections on two of the photos, but it didn't make the strip of metal look see-through at all...

What am I missing?You're actually missing nothing, I don't see any evidence of transparency, either. But that's their claim, I wonder why they don't submitt the "alien sample" with that "alien property" to the JREF and win a million dollars.

[tim]

Two years ago I spent a lot of time trying to get Michael Horn to produce the sample for analysis at Cambridge University. I spoke to Mr Randi about it several times, and he predicted Mr Horn would not cough up the sample. He didn't. Mr Randi predicted this, so he therefore wins the million dollars.
Wait. There's something wrong here.......... :D :D :D

[Flange Desire]

Two years ago I spent a lot of time trying to get Michael Horn to produce the sample for analysis at Cambridge University. I spoke to Mr Randi about it several times, and he predicted Mr Horn would not cough up the sample. He didn't. Mr Randi predicted this, so he therefore wins the million dollars.
Wait. There's something wrong here.......... :D :D :D
That seems to be around the same time that I was in communication with Horn.
It was the same deal: I was trying to line up some materials analysis (with no university backup), but all I got was loony talk.

[tim]

That seems to be around the same time that I was in communication with Horn.
It was the same deal: I was trying to line up some materials analysis (with no university backup), but all I got was loony talk.
That's the guy. I live maybe 20 miles from one of the most prestigous universities in the world. Ideal, thought I...........
No, it was one excuse after another. We got down to "How can I trust you?" I told him "Don't. Send the sample straight to the university."
"How can I trust them!"
I have say CFI West were very supportive through this. A belated thanks!

[Flange Desire]

Yes, same deal.
I also emailed CFI West at that time too.
Horn wanted to know how I could be trusted, and how 'qualified' I was to attempt any analysis.
After a while it became clear I was making zero progress, so I gave up.

just btw, your wombat is exceedingly cute.
'spose it is well suited to the cold in Bedfordshire?

[tim]

Yes, same deal.
I also emailed CFI West at that time too.
Horn wanted to know how I could be trusted, and how 'qualified' I was to attempt any analysis.
After a while it became clear I was making zero progress, so I gave up.

just btw, your wombat is exceedingly cute.
'spose it is well suited to the cold in Bedfordshire?

That's not "my" wombat - that's me! Well, ok, it's not.
I reckon wombats get a very poor deal. The Northern Hair-nosed is down to around 100 individuals now - and about to go extinct. But who seems to care? They aren't cute like pandas or tiger cubs........
Sorry for the derail...........

[webfusion]

into the Wrong Thread.

By the topic title, I imagined a discussion of another guy who said he was able to summon UFO's ---- can't recall his name here, for obvious reasons, but he is going around with TV crews showing his 'powers' to call UFO's into sight.

There is a video of it available for viewing:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/ufosighting.html

and

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/ufoguy.html


Like I said - it's the wrong thread.