Erich von Daeniken

[Starthinker]

Remember him? Did you know he had an ancients-visited-the-earth themepark??? Did you know it may have to close down if he doesn't find investors?

Link to article. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060411/od_nm/mystery_park_dc;_ylt=Al1Scxf9DU0Ac3NIkT42P0YSH9EA; _ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--)

I saw some young, new guy on the History channel the other night parroting ol' Erich the other night but I was half asleep and I'm not sure what show it was. I remember thinking he must be a student of Erich himself because he even showed the same ancient pictures.

Edited to add: Debunking his book to my mom is my earliest memory of being a skeptic.

[Hawk one]

I think this theme park was covered some months back, yes (though as a derail in a thread about him or Graham Hancock). But hey, feel free to update us as long as it's about more financial misery going on. ;)

[J. Arthur Hastur]

Investors are hard to find since he admitted publicly that he faked his 'evidence' in his books to fit his theories. Although he still claim his theories are the truth, he just has no real evidence to support them..................

[Yeah_Right]

Yeah I remember old Erich, and I believe that good ole Killik brought up the fact that Erich had built a theme park.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

They showed his theme park on one of the History Channel's (insert laughter here) UFO Files shows, they also presented his theories as 'fact, yet to be disproved by mainstream science'

I wrote an e-mail to the 'History Channel' suggesting that they should consider calling themselves the 'Speculation Channel'

[Sir Arthur Mortal Coyle]

Randi gives him a good kicking in his book "Flim Flam".

[Zep]

Anyone remember Winston Wu? He of the belief in ghosts in western towns, of UFOs, crop-circles, voices from the dead, orbs, and the soft-porn peddling of Russian girls?

Well, two years ago he proudly claimed that he had been invited as "a major guest speaker" at the opening of this theme park in Switzerland. He was boasting how this somehow proved that he was now a recognised authority on the above subjects. He had his bags all packed ready to roll...until...

His gig was cancelled! They didn't want him any more! Strangely, that decision followed immediately after Winston had his "Grand Anti-Skeptic Blather" comprehensively blasted out of the water (http://www.skepticreport.com/tools/winstonwu.htm), and he also started visiting Russia with the intent of "finding a Russian girlfriend because no American girls are as 'friendly' as they are.".

Last I heard, he never spoke at Erik's Grande Palais de Kook in Interlaken. How sad... :D

[kookbreaker]

Zep, I thought that a few of our comments actually had triggered him that he was being scammed. They wanted money out of him, not speeches. Even he wasn't so foolish.

[Jocky]

Debunking his book to my mom is my earliest memory of being a skeptic

Thanks for the memory, Starthinker. Debunking Von D to school friends was my first experience of skepticism in action - and the refusal of some of them to accept my explanation that he was (a) a fraud and (b) would still be wrong even if he hadn't been a fraud was my introduction to the strange nature of Blind Faith ...

Just arrived here from the UK-Skeptics forum. I look forward to the ride!

[EHocking]

Thanks for the memory, Starthinker. Debunking Von D to school friends was my first experience of skepticism in action - and the refusal of some of them to accept my explanation that he was (a) a fraud and (b) would still be wrong even if he hadn't been a fraud was my introduction to the strange nature of Blind Faith ...

Just arrived here from the UK-Skeptics forum. I look forward to the ride!M3 Too. I can remember being so excited about the evidence and interesting things he put into his book and then, at 12 or so, feeling completely cheated when he came up with his ridiculous explanations.

It is certainly the one defining moment that flags the start of my path to scepticism.

I wonder just how many sceptics Von Daniken is responsible for creating?

What an irony!

[juryjone]

M3 Too. I can remember being so excited about the evidence and interesting things he put into his book and then, at 12 or so, feeling completely cheated when he came up with his ridiculous explanations.

It is certainly the one defining moment that flags the start of my path to scepticism.

I wonder just how many sceptics Von Daniken is responsible for creating?

One right here. Between vD, Uri Geller and the Catholic Church I didn't need any other reason to become a skeptic.

Investors are hard to find since he admitted publicly that he faked his 'evidence' in his books to fit his theories. Although he still claim his theories are the truth, he just has no real evidence to support them..................

I didn't realize he had admitted to faking the evidence. Guess I had already come to the conclusion and wasn't interested in anything else he had to say.

[Zep]

Zep, I thought that a few of our comments actually had triggered him that he was being scammed. They wanted money out of him, not speeches. Even he wasn't so foolish.Not as I recall, although you could be right.

IIRC, Winston was totally star-struck to be invited to Von Daniken's edifice (I think I may even have a copy of his invitation letter somewhere...can I be bothered digging it up?). I had personal correspondence with him at that time - he had his bags packed ready to go...as soon as Von Daniken sent him the plane-ticket! :D And he remained hyped, even when they gave him some lame excuse for "postponing" his travel-costs and speech.

It was about that time that he got into trouble with Randi, though, so this all faded rapidly.

[Flange Desire]

snip
Just arrived here from the UK-Skeptics forum. I look forward to the ride!

Welcome Jocky!
Hope you can ride em hard and fast!

[rats]

One right here. Between vD, Uri Geller and the Catholic Church I didn't need any other reason to become a skeptic.

Yep, same here! At 12 I was already a big science fiction geek. vD seemed a good read! :)

[rjh01]

I was a great fan of Uri Geller until I was told by several sources he was a fake. Same with Erich von Daeniken. Then I started to learn how to think for myself.

[Morrigan]

Another one here who read von Daniken when she was 12-13. I actually thought what he wrote was really cool, and wanted to believe in it, so I tried to get more information. I thought, they are just theories, but it'd be so awesome if it were true, and hey, he even has some evidence! So I read Graham Hancock and other stuff like that, and was even more interested.

But eventually I realized how flimsy it all was. I was caught up in my wishful thinking. I maintain that it'd make a great sci-fi story, with aliens and ancient advanced civilizations and the likes, but I know now that it's all 100% speculation with no solid evidence.

I knew he had admitted to forging some evidence, and I'm baffled: is his confession a sign of a shred of intellectual honesty? But then you remember he did forge it in the first place, and won't hear no for an answer when confronted for his theories. What a kook...

[HarryH]

Yet another one who enjoyed EVD in my teens and it really got me interested in the whole supernatural & UFO subject. At that age it's easy to be convinced, luckily I started an interest in Houdini around the same time.

[Starthinker]

My mom also had a long-running subscription to Fingers of Fate magazine. That's good practice for a young skeptic as well. Oh, I mustn't forget all the World News Weekly and Enquirer tabloids. I guess you can say I grew up to be the exact opposite of my parents.

[Hellbound]

Oddly enough, it was religion that turned me to skepticism. It was after I started reading up on "the other side" (growing up as the son of a minister), that I encountered vD. While he didn't turn me to skepticism, he did enlighten me to the fact that people can believe a lot of seriously messed up things, and the strength of a person's belief has no bearing on the facts involved.

[Anacoluthon64]

At the risk of being lambasted for resurrecting what may be a dead thread, it is perhaps worth noting that von Däniken's acolytes are not only persistent but also seem to multiply sporadically. It is fairly common knowledge that his loopy conjectures have been extended and expanded by writers like Hancock and Bauval, among others. A recent, but probably less well known, contribution to this genre - "Archaeo-astronomy" (Don't you see? Appropriating the right jargon makes it all bullet proof) - by authors Herschel & Lederer is titled "The Hidden Records." I got given this book several months ago by a well-meaning but misguided biped, ostensibly to "open [my] mind," and I struggled through it supermanfully, a Herculean task by any mortal's standard, and subsequently posted a review at Amazon.com.

You see, I felt a bit schizoid about the authors of that goofy bunkum since they hail from the same place as I do, namely South Africa. The national kinship I felt was in some considerable tension with the affront to reason contained in their lamentable fiasco of a book, and I decided that exposing the latter took precedence. My review - the first of the book in question at the Amazon.com web-site - was withdrawn one day after posting by that venerable purveyor of fine entertainment goods (the original review contained the word "crank" twice, and "loopy" once), when "all of a sardine" five further reviews appeared, all by admirers of said work. I removed the offending vocabulary and reposted the review.

All the sordid details can be seen at
amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0620308869
(Sorry, haven't posted my 15th yet, so links are verboten... :( )

'Luthon64

[Amapola]

Anacoluthon64, I love the way you said that. I nominated you...... terrific language, in my opinion.

[MRC_Hans]

Ahhh, ye olde Däniken. I'm another one who oves his initiation into skeptical thinking to him. Him and Berliz.

The memories ....


Hans

[Meffy]

Heh, I was already quite skeptical by the time I read Asimov's essay(s?) showing what a fraud von D was. I'd not heard of him until finding about him in one of those paperback collections of Asimov's essays from (I think) magazines. That was back in the late 60s or early 70s, I guess.

[Psi Baba]

Like Morrigan, I was initially intrigued by von Daniken's stuff, but there never seemed to be any other matching evidence from other sources. He seemed to be the only one figuring this stuff out. It never sat well with me as it was way more sensationalism than science. One day in 1978 I opened the TV Guide and saw that PBS' NOVA that night was going to be about von Daniken. The description didn't say much. My heart sank. For a moment it seemed that NOVA had sold out to woo. But when I watched the program I laughed with glee--it was more like 60 Minutes than NOVA! They ripped him up one side and down the other. Completely tore his "theories" to shreds. Although he continued to publish and gain believers after that, that NOVA program brought an end to his credibility.

BTW, here is a picture of the goofy theme park:
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/mad-science/erich-von-daniken/daniken2.jpg

[Tirdun]

Maybe some ancient astronauts will come cut him a cosmic cheque. I do love that shot of the park, its very.... retrofuturistic.

[Jocky]

Huntsman:
Oddly enough, it was religion that turned me to skepticism. It was after I started reading up on "the other side" (growing up as the son of a minister), that I encountered vD. While he didn't turn me to skepticism, he did enlighten me to the fact that people can believe a lot of seriously messed up things, and the strength of a person's belief has no bearing on the facts involved.

I am a son of the manse too - but credit where it's due, it was my dad who warned me to read vD with caution and not believe anything uncritically, so helping to turn a potentially credulous teenager into an adult skeptic.

The analogy between recognising vD as woo and seeing similar difficulties with Christian theology may not have occurred to him, though!

[Bronze Dog]

BTW, here is a picture of the goofy theme park:
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/mad-science/erich-von-daniken/daniken2.jpg
Yeah, but do you have a pic of something other than the cheap plastic model for it?

[Hellbound]

Huntsman:


I am a son of the manse too - but credit where it's due, it was my dad who warned me to read vD with caution and not believe anything uncritically, so helping to turn a potentially credulous teenager into an adult skeptic.

The analogy between recognising vD as woo and seeing similar difficulties with Christian theology may not have occurred to him, though!

Yep :)

I had questions about religion, and the way questions were...*ahem*...strongly discouraged made me even more skeptical. Reading about vD was sort of a cementing of my skeptical position. It was the point I realized that even the experts can be as nutty as a ten-year-old fruitcake: not just bats in the belfry, but pink elephants, a deck full of jokers, and Jimmy Hoffa's body. From there I read Shermer's "Why People Believe Wierd Things", and that pretty much convinced me that skepticism had a lot of merit.

[Anacoluthon64]

Thank you, Amapola - your nomination is much appreciated.

I think that my Amazon.com review was initially pulled owing to a glut of fevered mouse-clicks on the associated "Report this" link. Who'd've thought Amazon.com engages in censorship, especially in view of the plus-minus 24 hour delay, for the purpose of vetting critiques for content and relevance, between submission and publication?

rgds,
'Luthon64

[luchog]

Reading about vD was sort of a cementing of my skeptical position.
It was fairly instrumental in my case as well. I had always considered UFO stories to be bunk, because they all sounded so illogical and suspicious to me; and vD fit in with that mold very well. I read bits of Chariots of the Gods, in Jr. High School, and thought it sounded like so much wishful thinking and nutcase misinterpretation of minimal evidence; though in a much more vague way at the time. A short while later, I read a debunking of vD (don't recall whose) that showed where he had manipulated evidence and pulled stuff straight out of his a$$, which gave me a much better understanding of why I found vD and those like him to be unconvincing. Went through some woo-woo phases since, but none very strongly, and they didn't last very long, as my natural skepticism eventually wore through.

[juryjone]

Oh my Ed.

Anacoluthon64, I read the reviews on Amaxon. Your review is cogent and well-written. the others...well, not so much.

I take particular delight in the comments of your countryman, Trevor.

"For the most part of our society and the people that are willing to broaden their horizons, I have stumbled across the Hidden Records as being an incredible journey that has enlightened my inception of the origins of human kind and the very fact that we can question the dictatorship of many religions and controversial subject material."

"The Hidden Records have definitely taken an adverse approach in allowing the reader to quite comfortably "ease" through the material without compromising the readers integrity, that so often happens when complex analogies are drawn and generally readers are left with a sense of frustration having to follow the authors writing."

Inception. Adverse. It left this "reader in a dismal array of emptiness".

[Soapy Sam]

I read both von Daniken and Velikovsky in my early teens. I recall trying to square the two- clearly they could not both be right. They could, possibly, both be wrong. Which was my conclusion.
Yes, they did more for scepticism than any science teacher I ever had.

[Anacoluthon64]

Hi juryjone,

Thank you for taking the time to browse the material and for your comments thereon.

What you have noticed in "Trevor's" prose is the legacy of South Africa's pre-1994, state-run educational system. I make no apologies for my compatriots' inability to compose a coherent sentence, except to say that it is largely the result of the same underlying, albeit bipartite, us-and-them mentality that produced Apartheid. In the past, South Africa had two official languages (Afrikaans and English), both of them compulsory school subjects with the only freedom of choice being between which of the two was one's "first" and which one's "second" language. On the whole, first-language Afrikaans speakers show a strong proclivity for asserting that they can in fact speak/read/write English, despite considerable volumes of contrary evidence, while first-language English speakers, much in the style of their colonial ancestors, tended to contest the idea that Afrikaans actually qualified as a language at all. Of course, this dichotomy did little to foster harmonious relations between the speakers of the two languages, especially with Afrikaans being prevalent, almost to the complete exclusion of English, in state and government bodies, and frictions persist to this day.

South Africa presently has eleven official languages. If the English-Afrikaans history is anything to go by, there's a free-for-all educational crisis just waiting to happen. Unfortunately, our policy makers seem to have only superficial appreciation for the obvious detail that English has become the de facto lingua franca of a whole host of different international endeavours: business, science, politics, etc. Japan and China, in contrast and by way of example, suffer from no such myopia, promoting English skills with comparable vigour to that applied in the case of their native tongues.

(Apologies: the foregoing has nothing to do with von Däniken and his minions; I just thought it might be of interest to some.)

rgds
'Luthon64

[kitakaze]

Japan and China, in contrast and by way of example, suffer from no such myopia, promoting English skills with comparable vigour to that applied in the case of their native tongues.

(Apologies: the foregoing has nothing to do with von Däniken and his minions; I just thought it might be of interest to some.)

rgds
'Luthon64Thanks, that was interesting to know. I was just skimming over this thread and I also apologize for being off-topic and also for nit-picking but here in Japan I think 'promoting English skills with comparable vigour' to what is applied to Japanese is not accurate, to say it lightly. The other jref (http://jref.com) will have lots of info on that if anyone's interested.

[Anacoluthon64]

Hi kitakaze,

As I have no firsthand knowledge about the status quo of language education in either of the countries mentioned, I must defer to your evidently greater familiarity with same. The observation I made was drawn in part from recent news reports and in part from information gleaned during my own interactions with delegates from those countries. The gist of these sources suggested that both countries considered, as a matter of policy, an adequate working knowledge of English essential to effective global participation, particularly in the areas of business and science.

rgds
'Luthon64

[steenkh]

My von Däniken story goes like this: I actually never believed in him, but when I was a child he was much in vogue, and at my school there were some books by him that I read - and rejected! I was probably only 10, but my skeptic tendencies were already developing. One picture intrigued me particularly, and that was a picture from the Hathor temple in Denderah, Egypt, which showed something that von Däniken identified as "light bulbs" and people wearing protective suits.

Many years later I had the opportunity to visit Denderah, and I managed to bribe a local guide to take us down into the crypt to look for the carvings from von Däniken's book. It was quite exciting to inch our ways along narrow passages underground with frightened bats trying to pass us, and the only illumination was a candle! We actually managed to find the particular relief that von Däniken had printed in the book, and it was immediately obvious that the "protective suits", that is the double outline around the people in the picture was an artistic convention for showing several people doing the same thing: the outline that von Däniken had faked to encircle the persons was actually only on their front, and in three dimensions the carvings clearly showed that it represented several people!

I have not been able to find the actual carving on the internet, because aparently some other carvings have taken all the attention, but here are those other carvings: http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/Denderahlightbulb.html

Having searched the net for the carvings, I have noticed that woo-sites prefer to date the temple back some 4-5000 years, whereas in actual fact it is Ptolemaic, and is only from about 100 BC. This is immediately obvious when at the location: there is no way this temple could have been older! But it is very well preserved with roof and crypts and all, much better than the older and much more famous temples in nearby Luxor.

[Starthinker]

This is the scenerio I always imagined: Some guy who can't carve as well as the other carvers is given an out-of-the-way room to decorate while the more important carvers are doing the burial chambers and stuff. He can't decide what to do so makes up some wild carvings just throwing his imagination into it and not being a good carver, even some of these things turn out looking funny.

Fast forward a thousand years or so and some archeologist find this back room and start attaching all kinds of significance to the carvings. Oh, that must be an important god and that must be an important ritual and oh, lord, that must be a ufo delivering technology to the king. All the time overlooking the fact that ancients probably had imaginations, too, and this poor carver that no one cared about when he was alive is all of a sudden proof that we were visited by aliens in the past.

That was my first thought when I first read Erich all those years ago. Why does every decorated pot or small statue have to be so significant? I'm sure there were artists back then, just as there is now, just decorating stuff off the top of their heads.

I can't remember where but I read about a region where they found all these little hand-sized carvings and statues of fat, pregnant women. The article talked about some religious ceremonies, birth rituals, great gods, etc., and the whole time I was reading I was thinking, what if it was just a fad, like Pokemon and it was just that everyone was collecting them or comparing them or seeing who could make the best one and it was just vogue at the time? Then the fad passed and they got tossed with the trash. Why does every single reminant from ancient civilizations have to be so gosh-darned important?

[Anacoluthon64]

Well put, Starthinker: a point that proponents of the von Däniken school of thought conveniently ignore is that there is much presumptive conceit in equating their own expectations of the ancients' capabilities and motivations with the actualities. No doubt, the ancients had frailties and strengths different to those we are accustomed to, and, moreover, their conceptions of the world were likely coloured by the peculiarities of their environment and cultural beliefs, these in turn affecting their manner of expression. Trying to discern plausible interrelationships in this context seems to me far more exciting and profitable than postulating spurious ETs, whose interference explains little and serves only to confound credibility.

rgds
'Luthon64

[kitakaze]

Hi kitakaze,

As I have no firsthand knowledge about the status quo of language education in either of the countries mentioned, I must defer to your evidently greater familiarity with same. The observation I made was drawn in part from recent news reports and in part from information gleaned during my own interactions with delegates from those countries. The gist of these sources suggested that both countries considered, as a matter of policy, an adequate working knowledge of English essential to effective global participation, particularly in the areas of business and science.

rgds
'Luthon64'Luthon64, that's perfectly understandable. Besides, your mention of China and Japan was not of great significance to the post in which you mentioned them. Though very familiar with China's education policies, I can only speak with first-hand experience of Japan's. I would advise considering the source of any news report you read and when you say 'delegate' I'm not sure if you mean a regular citizen or someone acting in a more official representative capacity. Regardless, you're quite right that most here would consider an adequate working knowledge of English essential to effective global participation. It's the execution and attainment that's the problem.

[steenkh]

This is the scenerio I always imagined: Some guy who can't carve as well as the other carvers is given an out-of-the-way room to decorate while the more important carvers are doing the burial chambers and stuff. He can't decide what to do so makes up some wild carvings just throwing his imagination into it and not being a good carver, even some of these things turn out looking funny.
Your point is OK, but you should not think that these Egyptian carvings were substandard or just ramblings. They were beautifully carved, and as usual with Egyptian art, very carefully planned. The rooms in the crypt were designed for holding the holiest statues, and probably had some very important religious function. Nothing was left to chance!

[luchog]

I can't remember where but I read about a region where they found all these little hand-sized carvings and statues of fat, pregnant women. The article talked about some religious ceremonies, birth rituals, great gods, etc., and the whole time I was reading I was thinking, what if it was just a fad, like Pokemon and it was just that everyone was collecting them or comparing them or seeing who could make the best one and it was just vogue at the time? Then the fad passed and they got tossed with the trash. Why does every single reminant from ancient civilizations have to be so gosh-darned important?
Because that is typical for subsistance and early agrarian cultures.

Expenditures of energy and wealth onitems and pastimes not directly associated with survival is a luxury that primitive societies do not have. In such cultures, all resources are expended on food, shelter, and insurance against privation. Religions observences are part of those necessities, as they are seen as directly affecting one's resources. Propitating and entreaty of supernatural entities of nature to ensure a favourable harvest, hunt, etc.; stave off disease and natural disaster; give one power over those competing for resources; and so on. Any resources that are beyond immediate needs are shared or hoarded against future lack.

To indulge in luxury and "fads" requires disposable wealth, ie. resources well above what are considered necessary for immediate needs, or as a hedge against future difficulties. The earliest culture I can recall that possessed wealth of this nature, and thus the tendency to indulge in such luxuries, is that of imperial Rome.

[steve s]

Was vD's book the one that had an X-ray of a rock with a sparkplug in it? My aunt had a copy of that book. Even as a kid in grade school I knew that it looked phony. Instead of thinking about aliens, it made me wonder how I could fake it by taking a spark plug and getting minerals to accrete around it. And why would a space ship use spark plugs anyway? Interstellar ships using gasoline engines?

Another one was Velikovsky. For some strange reason, my dad gave me his book when I was in high school. My dad wasn't a woo. He worked as an engineer. But I already knew enough about astronomy to know that Venus couldn't possibly have been ejected by Jupiter.

Steve S.

[Bronze Dog]

And why would a space ship use spark plugs anyway? Interstellar ships using gasoline engines?
Sure, they do! They just use an Inset Fuel Stabilizer (http://skepdic.com/inset.html) because the Men in Black of their world aren't repressing their geniuses!

[Starthinker]

Your point is OK, but you should not think that these Egyptian carvings were substandard or just ramblings. They were beautifully carved, and as usual with Egyptian art, very carefully planned. The rooms in the crypt were designed for holding the holiest statues, and probably had some very important religious function. Nothing was left to chance!

I didn't mean this particular carving, but carvings in general.

To indulge in luxury and "fads" requires disposable wealth, ie. resources well above what are considered necessary for immediate needs, or as a hedge against future difficulties. The earliest culture I can recall that possessed wealth of this nature, and thus the tendency to indulge in such luxuries, is that of imperial Rome.

I am familiar with this school of thought but there is still room, even in a primitive civilization where survival is the fulltime occupation for someone to carve something, amuse the kids with it, and possibly spark someone else to carve something similar.