Wait, the dingo really DID....

[pipelineaudio]

"ate my baby"?

Sorry if this is old news, but I thought that even now it is conventional wisdom that she killed her daughter

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/chamberlain/chamberlainaccount.html

[chillzero]

Thank you. I never knew she had been exonerated.

Good news never makes such loud headlines. (well, as good as the news could be - poor woman)

[Gravy]

I'm missing the context here. How'd the issue come up again?

[pipelineaudio]

I'm missing the context here. How'd the issue come up again?

I was reading the macmartin preschool case thing from randfan

[LTC8K6]

I thought it was common knowledge that she had finally been vindicated.

The line was used on a Seinfeld episode though, as if the writers were unaware that she had been telling the truth.

[pipelineaudio]

Like chillzero said

if the media ever has to retract, they do it in fine print

[ChristineR]

She was vindicated, but I'm inclined to think she killed the baby after all. Anyone who knows more about the case than I care to chime in?

[Ipecac]

I read a great deal about this case some time ago. It is clear that she didn't kill the baby. What was done to her was a great miscarriage of justice and while it's fantastic that she was exonerated, the stigma that she still lives with is terrible.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/fillicide/azaria/

[lostnick3]

the McMartin trial tuned rational people insane the the point of causing witch trials.

[ChristineR]

I read the article in Crime Library some time ago, and I'm still not convinced she didn't do it.

One of the following is true:

(1) The police forensics team was criminally incompetent.
(2) The police forensics team willfully forged evidence.
(3) A baby had its throat cut in the Chamberlain's car.

[lostnick3]

for #3 i'v had a sharp looking cut from animal before.

[Kiless]

You didn't know?

I've got quite a lot of info from teaching the film 'Evil Angels' to my students (no, it's not Charlie's Angels 2.... :rolleyes:). Including more recent news articles (at least, later than the 80s when the Chamberlain case was front page) about a young boy killed on Fraser Island by a maurauding dingo pack.

It was a dingo. They're sodding dangerous. There's no way in hell I'd have a cross-dingo dog, even though a fellow workmate desires one... for her kids of all things *insert a :rolleyes: that dwarfs the page*

'Dingos' in the US, on the other hand, are quite lovely although I hear their natural habitat is the kayak not the desert. :)

[Kiless]

for #3 i'v had a sharp looking cut from animal before.

A moose bit my sister once.

no really she was carving her inittals into the side of the moose with a toothbrush she had recived from... :deadp

[The Fool]

I read the article in Crime Library some time ago, and I'm still not convinced she didn't do it.

One of the following is true:

(1) The police forensics team was criminally incompetent.
(2) The police forensics team willfully forged evidence.
(3) A baby had its throat cut in the Chamberlain's car.
Thats ok, you are not convinced.
The people that decide what happens to her are....

There is a lot of fiction still reported as fact. Choose multiple sources.

[shalomsteph]

You didn't know?

I've got quite a lot of info from teaching the film 'Evil Angels' to my students (no, it's not Charlie's Angels 2.... :rolleyes:). Including more recent news articles (at least, later than the 80s when the Chamberlain case was front page) about a young boy killed on Fraser Island by a maurauding dingo pack.

It was a dingo. They're sodding dangerous. There's no way in hell I'd have a cross-dingo dog, even though a fellow workmate desires one... for her kids of all things *insert a :rolleyes: that dwarfs the page*

'Dingos' in the US, on the other hand, are quite lovely although I hear their natural habitat is the kayak not the desert. :)

There was a baby grabbed from a stroller by a bear in upstate NY a few years ago. The baby died. It DOES happen.

[lostnick3]

You didn't know?

I've got quite a lot of info from teaching the film 'Evil Angels' to my students (no, it's not Charlie's Angels 2.... :rolleyes:). Including more recent news articles (at least, later than the 80s when the Chamberlain case was front page) about a young boy killed on Fraser Island by a maurauding dingo pack.

It was a dingo. They're sodding dangerous. There's no way in hell I'd have a cross-dingo dog, even though a fellow workmate desires one... for her kids of all things *insert a :rolleyes: that dwarfs the page*

'Dingos' in the US, on the other hand, are quite lovely although I hear their natural habitat is the kayak not the desert. :)

i was once given a puppy wolf/German Shepard mix. talk about wild life problems it couldn't be house broken, chewed every thing in sight up. and howled like a banshee form the time i left for work until i came home at night.and i mean howl, neighbors were breaking in to save it all the time thinking it had got its tail caught in a mix master.

[WildCat]

I read the article in Crime Library some time ago, and I'm still not convinced she didn't do it.

One of the following is true:

(1) The police forensics team was criminally incompetent.
(2) The police forensics team willfully forged evidence.
(3) A baby had its throat cut in the Chamberlain's car.
I think at the time it was thought that dingos wouldn't ever attack a human, and the police ran w/ that. It has since been seen that dingos will attack and kill humans (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1314420.stm), especially those acclimated to them.

[lostnick3]

same thing for coyotes here. the first time was a little suspicious i think some 8 or 10 year old boy was killed

[Ipecac]

I read the article in Crime Library some time ago, and I'm still not convinced she didn't do it.

One of the following is true:

(1) The police forensics team was criminally incompetent.
(2) The police forensics team willfully forged evidence.
(3) A baby had its throat cut in the Chamberlain's car.

I have no problem believing that the forensics team screwed up. Here in America it was called the OJ Simpson trial.

There was no motive for a murder, no opportunity for a murder. The idea that the mother would run out to the car, kill the baby, then run back to camp is ludicrous. The courts seem to agree.

[Stormraven]

i was once given a puppy wolf/German Shepard mix. talk about wild life problems it couldn't be house broken, chewed every thing in sight up. and howled like a banshee form the time i left for work until i came home at night.and i mean howl, neighbors were breaking in to save it all the time thinking it had got its tail caught in a mix master.

As an aside, my family owned a wolf/shepherd mix once, and he was the sweetest, most biddable, easy to get along with animal I've ever seen.

[Aussie Thinker]

Ok lets put things in perspective here.

Lindy Chamberlain was exonerated because the Police cooked up bogus circumstantial evidence to convict her.

Was she ACTUALLY innocent ?

Maybe but I have a few pertinent questions.

Yes dingos do attack people ( the kid on Fraser island was mauled to death.. he wasn’t EATEN), but they DO NOT neatly remove them from jump suits. The clothing was found later almost intact with bloodstains ONLY around the neck.

They also don’t cart their victims MILES away.

Humans maybe ATTACKED (even killed although extremely rare) by dingos but they are not eaten and buried ! They are not natural prey.

[RandFan]

My only knowledge comes from the movie with Sam Niel and Mariel Steep. IIRC one of the problems was that the mother didn't act as the police thought she should. She didn't seem to mourn. This can be a red flag but police should think objectively and not simply rely on this fact. Some people do mourn differently.

And no, I don't believe everything that comes out of Hollywood. In fact, I would say that aside from JFK (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jfkmovie.htm) (Oliver Stone) there are virtually no factually accurate movies.

[Strider1974]

Reminds me of the JonBenet Ramsey case. It now appears that the parents are innocent and the killer is still out there.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/singular/index_1.html

Don't you love trial by media.

PS I remember Evil Angels (aka A Cry in the Dark) because Meryl Streep put on the worst Australian accent ever

[Kiless]

Reminds me of the JonBenet Ramsey case. It now appears that the parents are innocent and the killer is still out there.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/singular/index_1.html

Don't you love trial by media.

PS I remember Evil Angels (aka A Cry in the Dark) because Meryl Streep put on the worst Australian accent ever

I didn't know that about JonBenet Ramsey. I guess I haven't paid attention to that case myself. And I agree about that accent. :boggled:

[Zep]

Th' Ding Goe Ite Moye Buy-bee!


...excruciating...

[RandFan]

Reminds me of the JonBenet Ramsey case. It now appears that the parents are innocent and the killer is still out there.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/singular/index_1.html

Don't you love trial by media.

PS I remember Evil Angels (aka A Cry in the Dark) because Meryl Streep put on the worst Australian accent everYeah, I was going to mention that one. I was dead set on their gult but now I'm reasonably certain that they are innocent.

I was hung up on that ransom note. It just didn't make sense to me.

I was gung ho for the guilt of the McMartins. Want to know who changed my mind? Sit down for this one. Rush Limbaugh. Honest.

The movie (I live for movies) with James Woods was excellent BTW.

And it is Meryl Streep. You are correct. Thanks.

[pipelineaudio]

They are not natural prey.

I always gotta laugh at this "humans are not their natural prey" business

Clad in our modern ivory towers, we may well be surprised just which creatures menus we grace

Not being natural prey matters not a lick when you are dangling from the jaws of a great white

[RandFan]

Th' Ding Goe Ite Moye Buy-bee!


...excruciating... :D

Look, if you folks would just talk without the accent altogether we wouldn't have this problem.

[LTC8K6]

Wolves took and ate many children in an incident in India. Took the kids right out of the dwellings.

Human children are most definitely the natural prey of carnivores. Human adults too, as has been shown via numerous incidents.

[Flange Desire]

Yes, they are opportunistic feeders and will take whatever they can scrounge.
Not usually seen to be agressive, but VERY sneaky and cunning.

I read somewhere that the 'neatly folded' clothing had been picked up and inspected by the finder, ie, only later was it claimed to be 'neatly folded'. (no reference here - just something i read somewhere).

And the 'bloodstains' reportedly found in the front passenger side foot well, seemed to be either planted, fabricated or were a result of incompetence - it really did look malicious. (again no ref here - just something i read somewhere).
I suppose they were convinced and really pushing for a conviction.

Tis a real shame about Meryl's accent (forced kiwi).
"Struth Ruth! A dropbear has nicked moy ankle-biter!"

[Zep]

We really MUST introduce our American cousins to the joys of Strine...

[Angus McPresley]

Look, if you folks would just talk without the accent altogether we wouldn't have this problem.


As an American living in Australia, I get asked all the time where my accent is from. I tell people, "I don't have an accent. You have an accent." :D

[ChristineR]

I have no trouble believing that a dingo could eat a baby or that the police would cook up evidence. It's just that in all I've read about the case (and I've read everything I could find on the web) no one has anything meaningful to say about the blood evidence. If the police techs were making unjustified conclusions about what they found on the swabs taken from the car, I'd like to read a blood expert's comments on how swabs exposed to something besides the blood of a newborn could have tested as they did. If the police techs forged the evidence wholesale, I'd like to hear someone come out and say that there were no blood-positive swabs. If the blood-positive swabs were not taken from the Chamberlain's car, I'd like to hear someone come out and say that the police found some newborn blood somewhere and put it on swabs all in the interest of framing Lindy Chamberlain.

A splash of aterial blood that could only have come from a newborn with Azaria Chamberlain's blood type may only be circumstantial evidence, but that's about as convincing as circumstantial evidence can get.

If anyone has information that could answer these questions, I'd be grateful.

[Sir Arthur Mortal Coyle]

Originally Posted by Aussie Thinker :
They are not natural prey.

The reason that humans are not natural prey to carnivore's is because they now have a natural fear of us, grounded over centuries of being hunted and persecuted.

The problem is when animals are tempted to humans and human habitations by an easy meal, then the animal loses some of it’s fear enough to bite or take a chance. This is why you get the sign's in the park, like : “Do not feed the Bears”.

Some carnivores Kill & eat on the spot because they have to travel great distances to find their prey, and it’s easier to carry the meal in it’s stomach than it is to drag it all the way back to it’s den and it's young i.e. Wolves.

Others are more opportunistic, when they get a meal they have to get it to safety so that they can devour it in peace, before a larger predator turfs them off it. i.e. Jackals, Foxes, would a Dingo do this if they thought a human would steal his meal? Even a mangy backyard mutt runs off with a bone if you try to take it away from it.

[aggle-rithm]

I found it pretty amusing that the law enforcement officer who disbelieved the dingo theory based his viewpoint on the fact that HE couldn't hold ten pounds in his mouth for very long.

Oh, brother. Dogs don't have hands. They hold things in their mouths. Their jaws are MUCH stronger than ours for this very reason.

Also -- and I never would have believed this if I hadn't seen my dog do it -- dogs have no problem chewing up and swallowing bones, as long as they're relatively tender. They could eat a human infant without leaving a trace of remains.

[Psiload]

Babies ate my dingo.

[aggle-rithm]

This reminds me of a scary case in the US where a child died of a rare genetic disorder that causes an anti-freeze-like chemical to build up in the blood. The mother was sent to prison, and the father, although no charges were ever filed against him, lost custody of the remaining children.

When the woman gave birth to another child in prison, he had the same genetic disorder, this time correctly diagnosed. The justice system refused to budge, though, saying it was more likely that the child was fed anti-freeze than had the same genetic illness as his brother.

Finally, an expert came forward and demonstrated the difference between the chemical found in the child's bloodstream and antifreeze. He also showed that the mother would have had to feed the child 80 GALLONS of antifreeze to achieve the levels found in his blood.

She was finally released, and the couple regained custody of their children, but the state refused to exonerate her.

Very, very scary.

[LTC8K6]

I'd like to read a blood expert's comments on how swabs exposed to something besides the blood of a newborn could have tested as they did. If the police techs forged the evidence wholesale, I'd like to hear someone come out and say that there were no blood-positive swabs.

These explanations are in the long story linked to by Ipecac. There was no blood in the car at all, period (and no blood in other places as well). This was shown by later and proper testing. The "blood spray pattern" in the car was indeed a spray pattern, but not of blood. It was soundproofing sprayed by the manufacturer and pretty obvious to anyone who actually investigated the pattern.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/chamberlain3/2.html

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/chamberlain3/3.html

[Ipecac]

These explanations are in the long story linked to by Ipecac. There was no blood in the car at all, period (and no blood in other places as well). This was shown by later and proper testing. The "blood spray pattern" in the car was indeed a spray pattern, but not of blood. It was soundproofing sprayed by the manufacturer and pretty obvious to anyone who actually investigated the pattern.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/chamberlain3/2.html

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/chamberlain3/3.html

Thanks. Beat me to it. :)

[sophia8]

I always gotta laugh at this "humans are not their natural prey" business
There was a case here in the UK a couple of years ago:
Amum had her 6-week old baby sleeping on the sofa, with the family's Great Dane in the room. Mum leaves the room for a while, secure in the knowledge that faithful Rover will stand guard and protect Baby from all harm. Mum returns ten minutes later to find faithful Rover chowing down on Baby's head.

[lostnick3]

As an aside, my family owned a wolf/shepherd mix once, and he was the sweetest, most biddable, easy to get along with animal I've ever seen.

you were very lucky to have such a pet. i suspect it was much more German Shepard that wolf. other wise you may have been playing who's the leader every morning with an animal that can crush a coconut with its jaws. remember it only takes a second or two walk on the wild side to make a mess. it happens with domesticated dogs on a regular basis. in the U.S.. Having such mixes became a fad in S.CA in the mid 70's but died out pretty quick.

[RandFan]

As an American living in Australia, I get asked all the time where my accent is from. I tell people, "I don't have an accent. You have an accent." :DI actually had a coworker remark that it was odd that Americans are unique in that they don't have an accent. :D

[UrsulaV]

Yes dingos do attack people ( the kid on Fraser island was mauled to death.. he wasn’t EATEN), but they DO NOT neatly remove them from jump suits. The clothing was found later almost intact with bloodstains ONLY around the neck.

They also don’t cart their victims MILES away.

Humans maybe ATTACKED (even killed although extremely rare) by dingos but they are not eaten and buried ! They are not natural prey.

You'd actually be surprised at how neat a lot of carnivore attacks are, weirdly enough. Probably like a lot of people, I always assumed that when somebody gets eaten by tigers or whatever, there's blood and entrails and limbs everywhere, the walls are painted with gore, blood flows like wine, etc, etc.

But actually, what I've read is that it's often, quite counter-intutitively, a pretty tidy affair. One quick brutal shake snaps the neck almost immediately, (particularly likely with an infant) and the animal carries them off to devour somewhere in private. The human appears to simply vanish in the bush. It's only when an attack goes badly wrong that you get the walls running with blood and whatnot, like when feral dogs get into a henhouse or something and go into a frenzy. With an infant, they're so easy to kill that there's just no need for the animal to shred them in little pieces. A quick grab and shake, and it's all over, no muss, no fuss, and the animal can stroll back to the den and chow down at leisure.

So it doesn't actually surprise me that it would be a surprisingly tidy scene. As for the not being eaten and buried--that I don't see the argument for at all. A number of animals do become man-eaters under the right circumstances, and dingos would hardly be the first or only to do so. Burial is standard behavior in canines trying to cache food for later. So that doesn't bother me at all. And plenty of canines, particularly those with other packmembers to care for, will carry food quite a long way back to the den in order to eat in private. Several miles is not at all out of the ordinary for any species of canine, from foxes on up.

[aggle-rithm]

You'd actually be surprised at how neat a lot of carnivore attacks are, weirdly enough. Probably like a lot of people, I always assumed that when somebody gets eaten by tigers or whatever, there's blood and entrails and limbs everywhere, the walls are painted with gore, blood flows like wine, etc, etc.

But actually, what I've read is that it's often, quite counter-intutitively, a pretty tidy affair. One quick brutal shake snaps the neck almost immediately, (particularly likely with an infant) and the animal carries them off to devour somewhere in private. The human appears to simply vanish in the bush. It's only when an attack goes badly wrong that you get the walls running with blood and whatnot, like when feral dogs get into a henhouse or something and go into a frenzy. With an infant, they're so easy to kill that there's just no need for the animal to shred them in little pieces. A quick grab and shake, and it's all over, no muss, no fuss, and the animal can stroll back to the den and chow down at leisure.

So it doesn't actually surprise me that it would be a surprisingly tidy scene. As for the not being eaten and buried--that I don't see the argument for at all. A number of animals do become man-eaters under the right circumstances, and dingos would hardly be the first or only to do so. Burial is standard behavior in canines trying to cache food for later. So that doesn't bother me at all. And plenty of canines, particularly those with other packmembers to care for, will carry food quite a long way back to the den in order to eat in private. Several miles is not at all out of the ordinary for any species of canine, from foxes on up.


We had a Sheltie we nicknamed "Hoover" because anything remotely edible that hit the ground was instantly vacuumed up. Sometimes she would continue licking the floor for some time after all apparent evidence had been eradicated. Not surprising that predators in the wild, going for several days without food at a time, would be equally voracious.

[Flange Desire]

Also -- and I never would have believed this if I hadn't seen my dog do it -- dogs have no problem chewing up and swallowing bones, as long as they're relatively tender. They could eat a human infant without leaving a trace of remains.

"Debbil dog he jus lub em, tender or not".

My blue heeler eats ALL bones regardless of size or tenderness.
Split beef thigh bones (ie, the biggests available around here) may last her up to a week, but eventually are totally consumed.

I find it really amazing that the stool shows no bone fragments.
Sure, the stool is white, but it seems the bones are disolved by the gut.

And I find it facinating watching her as she juggles a bone around to get it into just right position for maximum crushing power from her molars.

PS, on the subject of mouth power - ever seen pictures of a thylacene's jaw? - absolutely incredible!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

"Debbil dog he jus lub em, tender or not".

My blue heeler eats ALL bones regardless of size or tenderness.
Split beef thigh bones (ie, the biggests available around here) may last her up to a week, but eventually are totally consumed.

I find it really amazing that the stool shows no bone fragments.
Sure, the stool is white, but it seems the bones are disolved by the gut.

And I find it facinating watching her as she juggles a bone around to get it into just right position for maximum crushing power from her molars.

PS, on the subject of mouth power - ever seen pictures of a thylacene's jaw? - absolutely incredible!

Concur. Our year-old black lab can crush up pig thighbones no problem. The beef bones are slower her down a little.

Speaking of thylacenes; I'm pretty much convinced she is part Tasmanian tiger considering how wiiiiiiide she yawns.

[ChristineR]

Thank you for the links, all.